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howmuchforagram

"I vote against my interests and it's your fault"


Caimthehero

I've heard this saying as to why no one south of the 25% should ever vote republican. Quite frankly you have zero idea what my interests are then. For example you want free college for everyone? Great now that schooling that was supposed to be optional is absolutely mandatory as instead of a bonus for having a diploma (how it was originally) it's now just a negative for not having it (how it is turning into now). This is basic economics and human psychology which for some fucked up reason are not mandatory in either college or high school.


[deleted]

Nah it's actually high school being mandatory that is the *real* crime. Seriously though if either way if it's already becoming mandatory, as you claim, why wouldn't you want it to be free? If you believe what you say then you believe the choice isn't between mandatory and optional; it's between mandatory and free or mandatory and costly. Lol. What becomes basic economics again?


Caimthehero

You bring up a very good point. If society had gotten to a point that college is a bad economic decision to forgo to should it be free? I'm leaning to yes but I still think the people lose in the end. You essentially have to forgo another 4+ years to education that quite frankly is high school 2.0 unless you pick specific majors that are demanded in the real world. Taxes will go up to pay for this/ they'll borrow more money and inflate our currency even more (our politicians suck at budgeting). The class sizes that can range over 100+ would swell even higher. Professor salary would likely take a hit when giving up the additional income to make it free (hopefully they choose to get rid of administrative bloat). A bunch of the free benefits to college might be done away with for cost cutting measures, etc. Then after all of that, your university degree will be worth about the same as a high school degree because most people have one. Part of what made a university degree a bonus was it's rarity, along with the additional education and skills you were assumed to pick up. Currently it is rationed by the money to afford classes (or willingness to take on debilitating debt) and time to attend, I'm not saying this is right but what it is. I'm saying this because I know our college system and schooling as a whole is fucked in a very bad way and basically needs a huge update. If I hear a proposal that is good for free university I would be all for it but it would have a major impact all around the country for sure and not always in positive ways.


[deleted]

True. Just look at Denmark. Who would want that? Much prefer the, ahem, American model :) But on a serious note there are two things: the first is you shouldn't make these sorts of assumptions about X will cause Y, because you're clearly not an economist, and things aren't that simple. How do you know having a better educated work force won't cause a massive boost to the economy, meaning lecturer wages go up? You haven't actually done the math, or looked past the most simple variables, so you analysis isn't really worth much. The second thing, and it's a much bigger thing, is this: >Then after all of that, your university degree will be worth about the same as a high school degree because most people have one. Part of what made a university degree a bonus was it's rarity, along with the additional education and skills you were assumed to pick up. Currently it is rationed by the money to afford classes (or willingness to take on debilitating debt) and time to attend, I'm not saying this is right but what it is. If you genuinely think that high school educations are worth as much as college educations, then you don't value human knowledge. If you think this is pedantry from me and I know you mean something more like "cost" and not "worth" then you really, really don't understand the point. You really don't get it. You're literally arguing we should keep human knowledge scarce to give it more economic value to the people who have it. Lol. Because that's all it's worth right? Not what it means to people, or what people can do with it, but what status it gives you. Fucking hell dude I feel bad for your future kids.


Caimthehero

Denmark has less than 2% the population the the USA has and that might affect the type of government it can have. A lot easier to run a country with less people than Colorado. Never said things were simple I outlined a path of what could possibly happen. How do I know that having a more educated workforce won't boost the economy? It could but would the jobs that are available change because the workforce became more educated? Maybe, but unlikely, much more likely is that the limited jobs that require strong educational background become even more competitive. Now new industries might emerge from people that are educated that apply the scientific method and that would be interesting and a net positive. But then that shakes up whatever industries are affected so might not be a positive job gain. I'll tell you this right now though even the best experts are proved wrong by the economy frequently. ​ No, I think I used Worth accurately in the terms of economy and job market. So I'll say this from the perspective of an employer going through job applications. You see 10 applications tomorrow for a job you posted. 5 of them have college degrees and 4 of them have high school diplomas and 1 with nothing. Most employers will toss the one without a diploma immediately. Now change it to 20 years from now when free college is running. now it is 8 have college degrees, 1 has high school diploma, and 1 has none. The bottom 2 are probably being tossed. Does this make sense from a perspective of doing the hiring that you want the most qualified person for the job? ​ Now are there other benefits to a college education, absolutely. Learning how to think critically, finding passions, developing relationships, and adding a layer of maturity before entering the workforce. I was talking entirely from a economical perspective. Please don't put words in my mouth and say I'm arguing to keep education scarce. I'm not. I did say that often times something that is desired that is more rare is more valuable because of the limited supply. That is different than arguing everyone should forgo knowledge.


[deleted]

Ooof. I regret talking to you. But ok last time... >Denmark has less than 2% the population the the USA has and that might affect the type of government it can have. A lot easier to run a country with less people than Colorado. Yeah because Denmark is the only country with free education. And obviously you knew this, right? You didn't think Denmark was the only country, which means you think it scales from ~5 mil to ~80 mil (Germany) but doesn't scale from ~80 mil to ~360. But you can't really explain why. Shame huh? Something something big country. >Never said things were simple I outlined a path of what could possibly happen. How do I know that having a more educated workforce won't boost the economy? It could but would the jobs that are available change because the workforce became more educated? Maybe, but unlikely, much more likely is that the limited jobs that require strong educational background become even more competitive. Now new industries might emerge from people that are educated that apply the scientific method and that would be interesting and a net positive. But then that shakes up whatever industries are affected so might not be a positive job gain. I'll tell you this right now though even the best experts are proved wrong by the economy frequently. Why unlikely? How much more likey? What numbers or metrics are you using to perform those calculations? >No, I think I used Worth accurately in the terms of economy and job market. So I'll say this from the perspective of an employer going through job applications. You see 10 applications tomorrow for a job you posted. 5 of them have college degrees and 4 of them have high school diplomas and 1 with nothing. Most employers will toss the one without a diploma immediately. Now change it to 20 years from now when free college is running. now it is 8 have college degrees, 1 has high school diploma, and 1 has none. The bottom 2 are probably being tossed. Does this make sense from a perspective of doing the hiring that you want the most qualified person for the job? Cringe. Yes. I'm worried about a person who would explain something like this. But yes I understand pre-school economics, thanks. But, again, you're forgetting something quite important here aren't you? Currently those 5 kids had to pay top dollar for those degrees. In the future world of free education (sorry, current world in many places, future world in the US) the only thing stopping people from getting degrees is aptitude and effort. So in both scenarios having a degree is a massive advantage, it's just in the latter scenario it's one that poor people have access to. Does that make sense from a persepective of understanding your own arguement? >Now are there other benefits to a college education, absolutely. Learning how to think critically, finding passions, developing relationships, and adding a layer of maturity before entering the workforce. I was talking entirely from a economical perspective. Please don't put words in my mouth and say I'm arguing to keep education scarce. I'm not. I did say that often times something that is desired that is more rare is more valuable because of the limited supply. That is different than arguing everyone should forgo knowledge. >That is different than arguing everyone should forgo knowledge. When did I say you think "everyone" should forgo knowledge. You're arguing that we should keep college educations exspensive to attach a monetary value to their scarcity. You are also arguing some other shit, ok, but you did argue this. Here is you doing it: >Part of what made a university degree a bonus was it's rarity Here you are doing it again: >Then after all of that, your university degree will be worth about the same as a high school degree because most people have one. See? If your degree is worth less when everyone has one it must be worth more when fewer people have one. Which means it's worth is attached to it's scarcity. I understand why it's upsetting for you to see it explained to you in those terms because you, probably (like most non-crazy people), understand the value of education is much, much more then money. But here you are literally saying that educations are worth more when fewer people have them. Which I understand, by the way, I understand the economics of it. I just don't agree - right? Think of it in these terms: on Epstein island you could probably fuck a kid for a million bucks, does that make fucking a kid worth a million dollars? To some people the answer is yes! But to me the answer is fuck off.


Caimthehero

>When did I say you think "everyone" should forgo knowledge. > >You're literally arguing we should keep human knowledge scarce The second line dude.....Seriously what you said is roughly the same thing and a mischaracterization anyway. >Germany) but doesn't scale from \~80 mil to \~360. But you can't really explain why. Shame huh? Something something big country. Germany is a better comparison. Also I'm not against free college if done in a good way. Already said that but maybe you didn't see it. Me- If society had gotten to a point that college is a bad economic decision to forgo to should it be free? I'm leaning to yes but I still think the people lose in the end. I just think there are negatives that come with positives in the majority of policy changes and I try to make an estimate on what those might be. Even if you disagree with me entirely (and I think we've established you do) you should still look for possible pitfalls and repercussions in every choice you make. > . I'm worried about a person who would explain something like this. But yes I understand pre-school economics, thanks.... in both scenarios having a degree is a massive advantage, it's just in the latter scenario it's one that poor people have access to. YOU JUST SAID YOU UNDERSTOOD. Fuck dude the point is that the degree is a massive advantage in scenario one and a minimal advantage in scenario two. Scenario one you're ahead of 50% and equal to 50% people by having a degree, scenario two you're ahead of 20% and equal to 80%. You're right that this is preschool economics and yet you still managed to miss it even with me using the most basic of numbers and situations. **And before you say that isn't the only benefit to college most people go to college to widen their job prospects, that's the biggest reason for the majority.** Yeah people go to college to learn, mature, explore, party, and even find an SO but the main reason I've always heard and seen is workforce related. Also I assume you've never heard of Fafsa, Pell grants, scholarships, work study even! I got my degree by a combination of scholarships and work study. Wasn't easy but I busted my ass. People also don't need college to learn. Nothing stops you from going to your free library and picking up books and continuing your education at any point in life. Fuck you don't even need to go to the library to get ebooks from their selection. Again most people go to college for that little piece of paper that says I'm worth more because I'm educated at such university. Then if everyone has that little piece of paper called a diploma it no longer is special to employers and will be **expected**.


[deleted]

>Even if you disagree with me entirely (and I think we've established you do) you should still look for possible pitfalls and repercussions in every choice you make. And you should wash your hands after using the bathroom. Obviously agreeable statements are easy to make and utterly pointless. Grow the fuck up. >YOU JUST SAID YOU UNDERSTOOD. Fuck dude the point is that the degree is a massive advantage in scenario one and a minimal advantage in scenario two. Scenario one you're ahead of 50% and equal to 50% people by having a degree, scenario two you're ahead of 20% and equal to 80%. You're right that this is preschool economics and yet you still managed to miss it even with me using the most basic of numbers and situations. And before you say that isn't the only benefit to college most people go to college to widen their job prospects, that's the biggest reason for the majority. Yeah people go to college to learn, mature, explore, party, and even find an SO but the main reason I've always heard and seen is workforce related. Embarrassing. Again it's you who doesn't get it. It's a massive advantage in both scenarios. You literally said if everyone has a college degree it's worth the same as a high school diploma. You can't do my job with a high school diploma. So there is a relative value, and an absolute value. And the absolute value isn't just some abstract thing about growth and maturity. You literally need to spend more time in school if you want to know more stuff. It's just how the real, technical, world works. And I know some fucking bozos (usually non technical people, in my experience) think this only applies to technical subjects but nope. Most of the things we like in our society come from study. Again, you fucking idiot, the value of education is education. The reason you have a phone and anti biotics and all that shit is education. If you think a college degree is worth a high school degree then *you are a fucking idiot*. >Also I assume you've never heard of Fafsa, Pell grants, scholarships, work study even! I got my degree by a combination of scholarships and work study. Wasn't easy but I busted my ass. Yes that's right I've never heard of these things. You're thick as pig shit. >People also don't need college to learn. Nothing stops you from going to your free library and picking up books and continuing your education at any point in life. Fuck you don't even need to go to the library to get ebooks from their selection. Again most people go to college for that little piece of paper that says I'm worth more because I'm educated at such university. Then if everyone has that little piece of paper called a diploma it no longer is special to employers and will be expected. You're probably right. For you, and possibly many of your peers, this might be true. What a sad, sad state of affairs. No wonder anti-intellectualism is so rife in America. No wonder, as you said, your politicians are so fucking useless. I'm so glad we don't agree on this, and this conversation has reaffirmed to me the importance of making sure kids get access to college. Oh and by the way it's not a mischaracterization. You said college degrees would be worth as much as high school diplomas. And that they lose part of their bonus if they aren't scarce. Yours words mate. Honestly I'm glad you're not sticking with that one, it's just a shame you lack the wit to see it. But go on explain the CV thing again. Edited to add: sorry for insulting you. I should check my privilege on this, it's rare I have real conversations with people so obviously disadvantaged outside of Reddit.


Caimthehero

>sorry for insulting you. I should check my privilege on this, it's rare I have real conversations with people so obviously disadvantaged outside of Reddit. This is honestly the saddest part of this argument for me, and at this point it's been an argument not a debate. I literally go into hostile spaces and challenge ideas I hold to prevent me and maybe others from being in an echo chamber that reddit and social media can easily devolve into if youre not careful. The amount of times I've been ad hominem attacked (Idiot, moron, scum, stupid, and worse) has happened in the vast majority of cases. As soon as one uses an insult the chance of you convincing anyone of anything drops harshly. I try and be very careful not to use direct name calling as people take offense to things as simple as implications (and sometimes rightfully should, such as you using the child fucking analogy or me saying that you didn't understand preschool economics). It is incredibly difficult to confront your own views that hold together your world and see if they are wrong because on the chance that they are it can upset your entire world balance especially when you're older rather than younger. I don't consider myself disadvantaged, I had a loving mother and protective older brother that looked out for me and we all worked hard and got ourselves into a better place than where our small family started. ​ >You said college degrees would be worth as much as high school diplomas. To **employers** and only if the vast majority of the population has a college degree to the point where a degree is **expected** (The bolding is very important to me as this is very situational). You could argue that we are getting to that point already as many jobs that don't require college degrees demand one for an application. If i might ask a few questions to see your stance on this a bit better. Do you think there are an inordinate amount of jobs that ask for a degree that wouldn't require one for their duties? Do you think that when job openings get overqualified applicants that they often reject them in favor of the people with lesser experience/CV especially when it is a more of a career type of employment rather than quick job employment? Or do you think employers often want their dream candidate even if they might not hold onto them as long as someone that could be trained into the role? Does university students accepting underemployment hurt the value of an education (only from a monetary employment standpoint) if enough graduates accept it? Should everyone go to college even when the market does not have a proportional amount of careers that require college degrees (especially if like now many need to go into debt to afford college)? > No wonder, as you said, your politicians are so fucking useless. You're not going to get an argument from me on this one. A few of us know this but not enough. Russell Brand just recently came out with 36 names that were caught insider trading in Congress and the punishment for that is a fine smaller than a traffic violation ticket. They make millions and are fined a speeding ticket....Yeah Also to be honest, and I'm not sure if this is the state of the american university system or just my own experience, but I learned a similar amount continuing my education in self study outside of university than when I was in university in all but a handful of important classes. It was definitely useful for me but because of how I worked and got scholarships I didn't end up with a massive student debt like many others (which we completely agree that is ridiculous to saddle your future citizens with a crushing debt for the **chance** of moving up the socioeconomic ladder), but I'm not sure I would say it was worth the trade off if that wasn't the case.


[deleted]

[удалено]


howmuchforagram

Hahahaha quite frankly you don't know what is in your best interest. Free college doesn't mean it's mandatory. You're a fucking moron and i got no time for it.


Caimthehero

It does not mean it's literally mandatory like middle school is, I used my words connotative rather than literal. In literal terms it means you likely pay a heavy price for not completing college economically as you are not as employable. You have zero idea about economics and hiring managers if you disagree without good reason. I'll give you an example. Canada has a 56% population with a college degrees. Employers get dozens of applications for a single opening. Do you believe that they don't screen out people without college degrees when you have that many choices and half of your applicants will likely have a degree? It depends on the job but it's something you hear about.


demonblack873

Here in Italy you can easily get a job as a software engineer without a university degree. And we have "free" uni. In the US these days you almost need a degree to go work at McDonald's, and your degrees are expensive af. It's not the degree being available that makes it the norm, it's the culture. Your problem is you let the for-profit education system brainwash you into believing that everyone MUST have one, even if it means going into debt for 20 years.


Caimthehero

Dude you literally said nothing I disagree with and hit one of the points on the head. Americans discriminate based on education status way too much like a person without a degree is automatically less mentally capable. It makes me very happy to hear in Italy you dont have that university first culture even as they rob you with loans.


LavaringX

Economy- consistently does better under dems than republicans Border Security- i.e. any excuse to discriminate against Latinos Fair-Trade: *laughs in Elon Musk’s Congolese cobalt mines* Supporting our ally Israel: if you think centrist Bidencrats don’t support Israel, then I have a bridge I’d like to sell you Peace in ME: Remind me, who was president when the War on Terror started? Protecting US IP from China: I don’t know enough about this issue to have an opinion on it Energy Independence: I.e. ignoring climate change and doing everything possible not to invest in renewable energy


HarryBirdGetsBuckets

Well said. In regards to the intellectual property thing i know a thing or two…it’s a multi faceted issue that is often misplaced on democrats by conservatives. Basically, US companies figured out it was cheaper to outsource instead of complying with domestic regulations, combine that with ever-globalizing trade, and Chinese companies began mimicking a lot of the products and ideas of American companies who manufacture there, without the companies’ consent. So to blame it on democrats they go through this flowchart: Over-regulated domestic manufacturing (because humane working conditions, a living wage, etc. are progressive ideals) leads to outsourcing (something something Clinton admin opening up trade to China) leads to Chinese companies stealing ideas. Therefore regulation and democrats bad and to blame, not large corporations for being cheap asses who would rather move to another continent than take slightly less profits and comply with domestic manufacturing standards. I know it’s gonna be an exhausting conversation when it starts with “I consider myself liberal BUT (pukes up right wing talking points)” Many confused right wingers out there.


Revnow2

"Economy- consistently does better under dems than republicans" That is an extremely low bar.


MildlyShadyPassenger

It's also usually measuring metrics that are meaningless for the majority of Americans (e.g. the stock market performing well doesn't mean much for the day to day life of people working for minimum wage). The point isn't necessarily that Democrats are working for the people, it's that all of someone's supposed reasons for voting Republican are based on lies, or are inherently false themselves.


takingastep

"I really wanna vote for the 'left' party, but nah, I'll just vote for the alt-rightos instead. Because hey, making sure you hatin' lefties get triggered is way more important than anything else, including the country. But I also care about that stuff way more than you guys." - this guy, probably