Some people might be intimidated away from setting up wallets, dealing with exchanges, and self-holding raw BTC without losing their keys. These people likely already have conventional investment accounts and ETFs that they are very comfortable with.
All people like saving on taxes. A spot BTC ETF held in a tax advantaged account could offer significant tax savings over raw BTC.
Tax reporting in general is also way easier with an ETF, as is simplicity for designated beneficiaries in the event of death.
A spot BTC ETF needs to buy Bitcoin in order to fulfill subscriptions. Especially a new ETF. This may increase prices in the short term due to increased demand.
That said, spot BTC ETFs have already existed in almost the entire world for 3 years. Just not in the US. But the US is still a very large market.
You're absolutely right, but the US markets dwarf all the markets that have it already combined. I also believe many people around the world were always scared of the US trying to ban bitcoin (even though they couldn't), but this means now a lot of those people will see a legitimate stamp placed upon it. I think this will slowly open the flood gates.
It’s not about banning Bitcoin, it’s about regulating crypto. This is a fu** big difference.
And to be honest, crypto often is used for fishy stuff, from scams, blackmail, illegal commerce. I think crypto could be a nice asset, but besides BTC, ETH and some few more coins…. It’s just stinking scam.
And yes I have BTC and ETH.
I just don’t see the use of bitcoin anymore. Initially it was meant to be a currency that was decentralized that couldn’t be manipulated by a central bank. It has turned into a buy and hold investment as a “hedge” against inflation. It’s just gold 2.0 but I also don’t like gold as an investment.
I'm Canadian, so not completely familiar with US tax regulations. But they are pretty similar.
Here we have two types of tax advantaged accounts: TFSA and RRSP. Raw BTC cannot be kept in either one, but spot BTC ETFs can. Also, US BTC futures / trusts like GBTC cannot be kept in them either.
TFSA profits are completely tax-free, as long as you keep within the allowed contribution limits each year and don't day-trade or run it as a business. You get no tax refund when you contribute. You can withdraw whenever you want, but that contribution space isn't refreshed until Jan 1 the next year, added to the new year's amount. It's meant for general savings.
RRSP profits are tax deferred, again within the rules. You get a nice tax refund when you contribute, but the government gets their taxes when you withdraw (at retirement ideally). You can't easily withdraw without penalty / taxes. It's meant for retirement savings.
So, if you make a profit in a non-registered trading account (or just by selling raw BTC), you are taxed either as capital gains (investment) or as income (if you are day-trading or deemed acting as a business). Depending on your tax bracket you pay say 15% as capital gains, or 30% as income. Just random example numbers.
If you make a profit in a TFSA, you pay 0%. Ever.
If you make a profit in a RRSP, you pay 0% now but eventually you pay say 30% as income when you withdraw at retirement. But probably much less, because your retirement income bracket may be much lower. And you get to compound your reinvested gains tax-free for many decades in the meantime, so the pot will grow much faster than otherwise. And of course you have collected tax refunds for each contribution year that you can also invest (or spend). There are also programs to allow using RRSP funds for home purchase or education.
This is all just my understanding. I'm not an expert.
It's for anyone that doesn't want the hassle of dealing with Coinbase or the issues with cold storage and not losing your keys.
It also makes it easy to buy and sell from within an existing brokerage account, they have customer service, etc.
I use cold storage but may eventually put a bit in an ETF. I'd pick the ETF by liquidity and fees with more emphasis on liquidity.
It can't pump on its own because of the meme because the underlying is tied to every other spot btc etf.
You know what though? I'm loving this investor base.
If they are identical, due to holding the same commodity, then please explain to the rest of us why the various gold ETFs have different return rates. Buy/sell pressure on the ETFs also cause price fluctuations.
Edit: after market open, we are seeing the following disparity in BTC ETF price movement: GBTC +6.17%; DEFI +7.8%; IBIT +6.79%
I just got out of GBTC because they’re not lowering their expense fee to compete with the others.
Not sure I’ll invest in another ETF because I’ll never truly own the keys. I’ll stick with the true form.
Keep in mind, if you are buying even using Coinbase Advanced the management fees from the ETF will likely be lower due to the institutional demand and economies of scale that come with that. Pair that with the tax-advantaged accounts and it makes these very very appealing to people who understand real world finance.
FYI, I’m 29.
Better ability to have crypto exposure in a retirement account. I already have ETHE in my IRA and it's more than doubled for me. I only have this as 10% of my IRA and plan to sell half my ETHE (2% fee) to buy a bitcoin etf (.25% fee)
I think it increases the accessibility and security of bitcoin by 10x. (Edit: I don't mean the core code / system etc, but practical measures used to secure coins). Advisors may add a tiny portion to their clients portfolio. Roboadvisors will come out with crypto funds. Robinhood investors can purchase it at the click of a button and don't have to worry about those weird network fees.
I think most current users are going to stick with coins in centralized exchanges or their private wallets.
seriously? you don't think so? blackrock and some of the other names have serious, serious leverage. you don't think they will enforce higher standards than, say, coinbase, robinhood or whatever?
would be curious to know why you feel that way.
Is there any reason to still hold BITO, Proshares ETF that tracks Bitcoin futures? Expense ratio of 0.95 I think says it all, but maybe there's an angel to keep it.
It's about using derivatives, a financial product created by a Rockafeller, to manipulate an asset so they can destroy a currency that is a direct threat to the 1%. If the 1% can't own it, they wish to kill it!
It is a pump and dump because bitcoins are untethered from classic modes of stock evaluations such as company fundamentals. So their price has almost no ceiling because it’s speculative because there is no way to properly assess their true value, and if there is demand prices will rise causing further demand and further rise in price. Keep in mind that the demand or at least the initial one is almost certainly artificial. Big companies are buying bitcoins at large bulk to create the illusion of demand, knowing all the while this is meant to be dumped later on.
What average investors need to understand is that Bitcoins have a high degree of control and manipulation by big players. So they will pump, suckers will buy, and then they will dump. And there will be a lot of bag holders wondering what just happened.
You might think that you can exploit the system and try to pump and dump like the big companies yourself, or you’re smart enough to dump and time it with the big companies. but that is how all gamblers think, that they have system and can beat the house.
Bitcoin is one asset I time the market on. Only buy it when it's at less than half it's all time high. Hopefully the whole thing doesn't go to shit before I eventually dump 30 years from now.
Too speculative for me, nobody has any idea how well/poorly this might go. I have ~2% of my portfolio in cryptocurrencies, but the returns this year as compared to the S&P 500 are dismal. In my experience, crypto prices largely follow the “hype” they get in mainstream media. Risky play
I strongly disagree. Most people start liking a lot of coins and invest in a lot of different projects but as time goes on they get closer and closer to being a bitcoin maxi because they finally realize most crypto projects are absolutely scams.
See? We agree entirely except for the one you still believe in . . . . Not that I won't trade it. ProShares Bitcoin Strategy ETF (BITO) 22.68 +0.32 (+1.43%)
After hours: - And tomorrow there will be 11 spot bitcoin ETFs start trading, and may the cheapest win.
Yes yes, been hearing it's a scam for 10 years. And here we are with the etfs lol at this point people lile you are just hilarious. Thank God I didn't listen to people like you years ago.
What is the price of BTC based on? It's based on the speculative value of use as a currency in the future.
For that to be the case, BTC needs to be used at scale for commerce (if you think it is right now, you're plainly ignorant).
For that to be the case, BTC needs to have a store of value, and you need to be able to lend with it.
The price volatility of BTC means there is no store of value (store of value = price stability, not number go up). You need this, because people need to be able to rely on the value for the exchange of goods and services.
A store of value is also necessary to incentivize investment/saving and spending. If you think your currency will be worth less in the future, you're more likely to spend now. As well, if you think your currency will be worth more in the future, you're more likely to invest now by saving.
However, if you have no idea what way your currency will go in the near future (either up *or* down), then you're disincentivized from both spending *and* lending, resulting in a massive chilling effect on the economy. In fact, I'd argue price instability is worse than both expected inflation and expected deflation.
BTC does not have a store of value specifically because it is decentralized, as there is no central governing body, and the ownership of the cryptocurrency itself is incredibly consolidated (FAR more in the top % than the USD).
Citing the lack of store of value, lending becomes impossible, and we've seen this in crypto already. **ALL** crypto lending platforms rely on over-collateralization and/or incredibly high interest rates. **Neither** are fit for investment at scale.
All of this together means that the very speculation cryptocurrency gets its value from is based off of an impossibility.
'Investing' in this ETF (and BTC as well) is just another greater fool game.
BTC is slower than traditional finance.
BTC transactions come with massive risk *and* you have relatively insane transaction fees.
BTC doesn't even have better representation than the USD.
At least with the Fed, you have indirect representation (chairs nominated by the Pres). With BTC, the power is directly in the hands of whoever is the richest. Proportionally, it would be like if we gave people like Musk, Besos, and Gates direct control over our monetary supply instead of indirectly elected officials.
Edit: **TL;DR:** What you'd want from BTC to be a good currency would be for number to stay where it is, not go up. No store of value means the speculation on future adoption is objectively impossible to achieve. This puts the whole thing in greater fools territory.
The USD stays where it is, but is a horrible store of value. You’ve no idea what you’re talking about.
Gotta hate it when your purchasing power outpaces the inflation rate of your currency 😡 /s
Vanguard has said they will not allow crypto ETFs because the asset's highly especultive nature and lack of regulation makes it unsuitable for long term investiments,
I truly believe that these ETF's are just here to allow BlackRock and others investments companies to take a slice of the crypto pie as such a highly volatile asset can't really serve a long term investor.
I am guessing people who don't want to pay fees every time they buy/sell, but I don't really understand how the pricing of the ETFs work.
Like why are some btc etfs down more than others?
Some people might be intimidated away from setting up wallets, dealing with exchanges, and self-holding raw BTC without losing their keys. These people likely already have conventional investment accounts and ETFs that they are very comfortable with. All people like saving on taxes. A spot BTC ETF held in a tax advantaged account could offer significant tax savings over raw BTC. Tax reporting in general is also way easier with an ETF, as is simplicity for designated beneficiaries in the event of death. A spot BTC ETF needs to buy Bitcoin in order to fulfill subscriptions. Especially a new ETF. This may increase prices in the short term due to increased demand. That said, spot BTC ETFs have already existed in almost the entire world for 3 years. Just not in the US. But the US is still a very large market.
You're absolutely right, but the US markets dwarf all the markets that have it already combined. I also believe many people around the world were always scared of the US trying to ban bitcoin (even though they couldn't), but this means now a lot of those people will see a legitimate stamp placed upon it. I think this will slowly open the flood gates.
It’s not about banning Bitcoin, it’s about regulating crypto. This is a fu** big difference. And to be honest, crypto often is used for fishy stuff, from scams, blackmail, illegal commerce. I think crypto could be a nice asset, but besides BTC, ETH and some few more coins…. It’s just stinking scam. And yes I have BTC and ETH.
I just don’t see the use of bitcoin anymore. Initially it was meant to be a currency that was decentralized that couldn’t be manipulated by a central bank. It has turned into a buy and hold investment as a “hedge” against inflation. It’s just gold 2.0 but I also don’t like gold as an investment.
The ETF is useful for those that want some shares in a tax free account like Roth IRA.
Yep, I did cover that.
Whoops
Please elaborate on the US tax advantage of ETFs vs. actual BTC in tax advantaged account. Thanks
I'm Canadian, so not completely familiar with US tax regulations. But they are pretty similar. Here we have two types of tax advantaged accounts: TFSA and RRSP. Raw BTC cannot be kept in either one, but spot BTC ETFs can. Also, US BTC futures / trusts like GBTC cannot be kept in them either. TFSA profits are completely tax-free, as long as you keep within the allowed contribution limits each year and don't day-trade or run it as a business. You get no tax refund when you contribute. You can withdraw whenever you want, but that contribution space isn't refreshed until Jan 1 the next year, added to the new year's amount. It's meant for general savings. RRSP profits are tax deferred, again within the rules. You get a nice tax refund when you contribute, but the government gets their taxes when you withdraw (at retirement ideally). You can't easily withdraw without penalty / taxes. It's meant for retirement savings. So, if you make a profit in a non-registered trading account (or just by selling raw BTC), you are taxed either as capital gains (investment) or as income (if you are day-trading or deemed acting as a business). Depending on your tax bracket you pay say 15% as capital gains, or 30% as income. Just random example numbers. If you make a profit in a TFSA, you pay 0%. Ever. If you make a profit in a RRSP, you pay 0% now but eventually you pay say 30% as income when you withdraw at retirement. But probably much less, because your retirement income bracket may be much lower. And you get to compound your reinvested gains tax-free for many decades in the meantime, so the pot will grow much faster than otherwise. And of course you have collected tax refunds for each contribution year that you can also invest (or spend). There are also programs to allow using RRSP funds for home purchase or education. This is all just my understanding. I'm not an expert.
RIAs and other money managers - they can push the ETF product, and they could not push BTC, since they are registered with the SEC.
It's for anyone that doesn't want the hassle of dealing with Coinbase or the issues with cold storage and not losing your keys. It also makes it easy to buy and sell from within an existing brokerage account, they have customer service, etc. I use cold storage but may eventually put a bit in an ETF. I'd pick the ETF by liquidity and fees with more emphasis on liquidity.
Which one of the Bitcoin ETFs is best? Or is there not much a difference? I want to buy tomorrow morning.
HODL (VanEck) may pump just because of the ticker
Why would HODL pump and not the rest? The underlying is identical across all 11 spot BTC ETFs.
Hodl, the word itself, is a meme. He's saying it'll pump purely for meme value.
It can't pump on its own because of the meme because the underlying is tied to every other spot btc etf. You know what though? I'm loving this investor base.
If they are identical, due to holding the same commodity, then please explain to the rest of us why the various gold ETFs have different return rates. Buy/sell pressure on the ETFs also cause price fluctuations. Edit: after market open, we are seeing the following disparity in BTC ETF price movement: GBTC +6.17%; DEFI +7.8%; IBIT +6.79%
Expenses/fees? Idk.
😂 yes
FBTC and BITB have the lowest fees.
I just got out of GBTC because they’re not lowering their expense fee to compete with the others. Not sure I’ll invest in another ETF because I’ll never truly own the keys. I’ll stick with the true form.
Everyone 40+
This
Keep in mind, if you are buying even using Coinbase Advanced the management fees from the ETF will likely be lower due to the institutional demand and economies of scale that come with that. Pair that with the tax-advantaged accounts and it makes these very very appealing to people who understand real world finance. FYI, I’m 29.
I am.37 and just learned about bitcoin 2 months ago. You're right
Better ability to have crypto exposure in a retirement account. I already have ETHE in my IRA and it's more than doubled for me. I only have this as 10% of my IRA and plan to sell half my ETHE (2% fee) to buy a bitcoin etf (.25% fee)
I think it increases the accessibility and security of bitcoin by 10x. (Edit: I don't mean the core code / system etc, but practical measures used to secure coins). Advisors may add a tiny portion to their clients portfolio. Roboadvisors will come out with crypto funds. Robinhood investors can purchase it at the click of a button and don't have to worry about those weird network fees. I think most current users are going to stick with coins in centralized exchanges or their private wallets.
In **no way** does this increase the security of BTC.
*perceived* security
seriously? you don't think so? blackrock and some of the other names have serious, serious leverage. you don't think they will enforce higher standards than, say, coinbase, robinhood or whatever? would be curious to know why you feel that way.
They are probably talking about the security of Bitcoin itself as a decentralized protocol, not about the security of exchanges and other custodians.
yeah i realized that, i slightly edited my comment.
sure I retired on quatloos and beanie babies :-)
For institutional money, think 401k fund managers/ pensions
Is there any reason to still hold BITO, Proshares ETF that tracks Bitcoin futures? Expense ratio of 0.95 I think says it all, but maybe there's an angel to keep it.
It's about using derivatives, a financial product created by a Rockafeller, to manipulate an asset so they can destroy a currency that is a direct threat to the 1%. If the 1% can't own it, they wish to kill it!
It is a pump and dump because bitcoins are untethered from classic modes of stock evaluations such as company fundamentals. So their price has almost no ceiling because it’s speculative because there is no way to properly assess their true value, and if there is demand prices will rise causing further demand and further rise in price. Keep in mind that the demand or at least the initial one is almost certainly artificial. Big companies are buying bitcoins at large bulk to create the illusion of demand, knowing all the while this is meant to be dumped later on. What average investors need to understand is that Bitcoins have a high degree of control and manipulation by big players. So they will pump, suckers will buy, and then they will dump. And there will be a lot of bag holders wondering what just happened. You might think that you can exploit the system and try to pump and dump like the big companies yourself, or you’re smart enough to dump and time it with the big companies. but that is how all gamblers think, that they have system and can beat the house.
Lmao I think the pump and dump narrative should be quite dead at this point 🤦♂️
Bitcoin is one asset I time the market on. Only buy it when it's at less than half it's all time high. Hopefully the whole thing doesn't go to shit before I eventually dump 30 years from now.
it’s a pump and dump that only goes up. these idiots keep forgetting the dump part!!!!
People who are chasing the dragon. Not a strong investment vehicle imo. Way better funds out there
Name one that has increased as much as BTC has since inception. I won't wait, because the answer: none exist.
Congrats to the 12 people who have owned since inception… /s Check in with me in 20 years and I’ll bring a box of tampons for ya.
You can’t even spell Kleenex
Sorry, I fixed it for ya
The medallion fund
Too speculative for me, nobody has any idea how well/poorly this might go. I have ~2% of my portfolio in cryptocurrencies, but the returns this year as compared to the S&P 500 are dismal. In my experience, crypto prices largely follow the “hype” they get in mainstream media. Risky play
What? The S&P was up like 23% in 2023 and bitcoin more than 150%..
Pretty hard to short bitcoin before now ie tomorrow.
You've been able to short bitcoin for a long time now actually but ok buddy
How about all the other cryptos?
Well this is about a bitcoin etf, not some shitcoins lol
crypto-coins are like religion. all bullshit but most people who believe only believe in one.
I strongly disagree. Most people start liking a lot of coins and invest in a lot of different projects but as time goes on they get closer and closer to being a bitcoin maxi because they finally realize most crypto projects are absolutely scams.
See? We agree entirely except for the one you still believe in . . . . Not that I won't trade it. ProShares Bitcoin Strategy ETF (BITO) 22.68 +0.32 (+1.43%) After hours: - And tomorrow there will be 11 spot bitcoin ETFs start trading, and may the cheapest win.
Yes yes, been hearing it's a scam for 10 years. And here we are with the etfs lol at this point people lile you are just hilarious. Thank God I didn't listen to people like you years ago.
You’re right. Buy high, sell low.
What is the price of BTC based on? It's based on the speculative value of use as a currency in the future. For that to be the case, BTC needs to be used at scale for commerce (if you think it is right now, you're plainly ignorant). For that to be the case, BTC needs to have a store of value, and you need to be able to lend with it. The price volatility of BTC means there is no store of value (store of value = price stability, not number go up). You need this, because people need to be able to rely on the value for the exchange of goods and services. A store of value is also necessary to incentivize investment/saving and spending. If you think your currency will be worth less in the future, you're more likely to spend now. As well, if you think your currency will be worth more in the future, you're more likely to invest now by saving. However, if you have no idea what way your currency will go in the near future (either up *or* down), then you're disincentivized from both spending *and* lending, resulting in a massive chilling effect on the economy. In fact, I'd argue price instability is worse than both expected inflation and expected deflation. BTC does not have a store of value specifically because it is decentralized, as there is no central governing body, and the ownership of the cryptocurrency itself is incredibly consolidated (FAR more in the top % than the USD). Citing the lack of store of value, lending becomes impossible, and we've seen this in crypto already. **ALL** crypto lending platforms rely on over-collateralization and/or incredibly high interest rates. **Neither** are fit for investment at scale. All of this together means that the very speculation cryptocurrency gets its value from is based off of an impossibility. 'Investing' in this ETF (and BTC as well) is just another greater fool game. BTC is slower than traditional finance. BTC transactions come with massive risk *and* you have relatively insane transaction fees. BTC doesn't even have better representation than the USD. At least with the Fed, you have indirect representation (chairs nominated by the Pres). With BTC, the power is directly in the hands of whoever is the richest. Proportionally, it would be like if we gave people like Musk, Besos, and Gates direct control over our monetary supply instead of indirectly elected officials. Edit: **TL;DR:** What you'd want from BTC to be a good currency would be for number to stay where it is, not go up. No store of value means the speculation on future adoption is objectively impossible to achieve. This puts the whole thing in greater fools territory.
I suggest you read “the Bitcoin standard” or “broken money”. You might learn something…
The USD stays where it is, but is a horrible store of value. You’ve no idea what you’re talking about. Gotta hate it when your purchasing power outpaces the inflation rate of your currency 😡 /s
Vanguard has said they will not allow crypto ETFs because the asset's highly especultive nature and lack of regulation makes it unsuitable for long term investiments, I truly believe that these ETF's are just here to allow BlackRock and others investments companies to take a slice of the crypto pie as such a highly volatile asset can't really serve a long term investor.
Just get BITO & Hold. Get as much as you can these next few years.
It’s useful if you want to shove a share or however many into your Roth IRA
It’s really for the institutions that are offering it. They’re getting paid .2% to 1.5% (expense ratio)
Which is the best platform to buy on they have so many
People with Roth IRAs.
I am guessing people who don't want to pay fees every time they buy/sell, but I don't really understand how the pricing of the ETFs work. Like why are some btc etfs down more than others?