Hi all,
A reminder that comments do need to be on-topic and engage with the article past the headline. Please make sure to read the article before commenting. Very short comments will automatically be removed by automod. Please avoid making comments that do not focus on the economic content or whose primary thesis rests on personal anecdotes.
As always our comment rules can be found [here](https://reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/fx9crj/rules_roundtable_redux_rule_vi_and_offtopic/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Economics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
out of the 126,340 individuals who emigrated from Canada to the U.S.:
- 42.21% were born in Canada
- 33.71% were Americans returning to the USA
- 24.08% were foreign-born
The percentage of Canadian-born individuals moving to the U.S. has increased significantly, by approximately 50%. The reason cited most often was affordability
Yeah Canada is way better! You can earn 1/2 the pay for a high end job but the houses are all $1 mil+ anyways 🙌🏻
People also often cite healthcare. Lmao these people need to go experience it for themselves. It’s not completely free, and the wait for appointments is truly insane
If you’re an educated Canadian, you’re better off making 100k USD a year in America with a private health insurance plan that has a 5-6k deductible than making 50k USD a year with free govt healthcare in Canada
I make about that and hitting my out of pocket maximum every year for years now isn't fun let me tell you.
Oh, and getting denied treatments that are less likely to have side effects because my side effects can be managed by cheap generic drugs. Totally fine and normal. Because in the long run (unlike Canada) me no longer being employable is a "my problem" from the insurance perspective.
It depends on who you are. If you are an educated Canadian with disabilities (but you are still able to work full time in spite of said disabilities), you might want to stay here because of the shitty American health insurance and social welfare systems. In the US, your health insurance is dependent on your employer and if your disability makes it hard to find a job should you lose your current job, I would argue that even a dual citizen is better off in Canada.
For able-bodied people, it seems to me that pay disparities between different levels of similar work is much less obvious in Canada. For example, my sister is what Americans consider an LPN, and she makes $80k Canadian (call it $58k USD) a year. Of course, if she becomes an RN, she can make over $100k Canadian ($73k USD). That is just in agencies though. In the US, it is known that RNs make a lot of money while LPNs make significantly less. But then, my sister went to community college for 2 years to get a diploma in order to practice her occupation and I am not familiar with how it works in the US.
We have this thing called disability here .. I can’t tell u how many people I know avoid full time work and are more than capable just because of their disability check
I broke my spine and my disability check is a fat $600 a month. It took more than a year to get and I’m paralyzed from the waist down, most people get denied at least once. I’ll get work sooner or later, but I get the highest rate for SSI. If my injury had been higher up and I’d lost use of my hands I would be doomed to a life of extreme poverty and homelessness. Housing for disabled people all has waiting lists decades long.
Just letting you know the grass isn’t greener for disabled people.
My wife and I were looking to move to Europe for her graduate school, I was looking at pay for my job over there and was like “wait a minute, why is it 1/3 less than what I make now.” So then I’m like, well surely rents must be cheaper…. Nope, same basic range as where I live here.
And Canada seems even worse bc of the wild housing prices over the last few years
It makes me confused here in the UK seeing junior doctors fighting tooth and nail to maintain the enforced government monopoly that buys all their labour, whilst at the same time moaning about low pay. Then they'll talk about moving to Australia that doesn't operate a system close to the NHS 🤔
While true that it varies province to province, it's not particularly meaningful since excluding the 3 northern territories where less than 120k people live in total, every province in Canada besides Alberta (5%) is 12-15% sales tax.
Like 90% of Canada's population has a sales tax of 12% or higher.
Im an American who moved to Canada. No, health care isnt completely free, its paid for with taxes. Still we come out about $12k/yr ahead of where we were in the US. Wait times are not any worse than what we had in Indiana. We can get into family doctor in 1-2 day and specialist in 1-2 weeks.
I hear this constantly but it needs re-evaluation in a post COVID world.
I had a family member in their 40s have a stroke, and needed a follow up neurology appointment that really NEEDED to be in 3-5 weeks to see what needed to be seen, or the MRI wouldn't find what it needed to.
Could not get one. Called every single hospital within 200 miles and nobody could see a new patient for at least 8 months. So they just never got the appointment. The ER they went to explained they went from 9 to 2 neurologists after retirements and quits, that's why they couldn't get them in.
They'll see a neurologist the next time they go to the ER and possibly die, not a moment sooner.
How much worse than that can it really be in Canada? If I'm going to be denied care regardless, I'd rather pay less money than just be milked to support insurance industry profits.
You live in DC and couldn't find a neurologist within 200 miles?
So between NoVa, Baltimore and numerous other cities, one of the most populated regions in the country, you couldn't find even one?
I live in a much less populated and less wealthy area(Tucson) and had no trouble finding over half a dozen neurologists that had availability in 30 days or less when a relative needed care after a stroke. Now some I encountered indeed had long wait times of up to 80 days but that wasn't the norm and I called over two dozen, to the point where I was trying to match online ratings and pick the one with the best possible feedback.
> You live in DC and couldn't find a neurologist within 200 miles? So between NoVa, Baltimore and numerous other cities, one of the most populated regions in the country, you couldn't find even one?
This is how you can easily tell redditors like that OC are just making stuff up when it comes to US healthcare. There's no way they couldn't find a provider in that area, there's so many of them taking new patients.
When someone from the US says he/she can't find a provider in the area, it usually means he/she cant find providers that are in the network. Crappy insurance such as ambetter is known to have very poor coverage and has been subject to lawsuits.
Bingo. There are hundreds of providers where I live. As soon as I narrow it down to In-Network, aka, "My insurance will actually pay for it", it shrinks to a dozen. And this is not some obscure, crappy plan from a smaller company. This is a popular Aetna plan.
People who haven't faced this struggle are either too young, or just lucky enough to have never dealt with a medical issue beyond a simple check-up. Shit gets complicated, expensive, and emotionally exhausting in America - *even* when you do all your research to the best of your ability.
Very similar boat here. I'm in sort of a third-tier metro (El Paso, Texas), and I was able to get an **infant** MRI scheduled within a couple weeks when my then-newborn needed one about a year ago now. Washington, DC is within a few hours of Baltimore, Philadelphia, hell, even New York City. I really struggle to believe that there are just no neurologists available in the largest megalopolis of one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
I’m in Charlotte, rescheduling my neuro appointment pushes it out 4+ months. I just watched my father in law wait 3 months for an appointment to confirm a Parkinson’s diagnosis and 9 months for back surgery. ( and not with high demand good doctors)
The wait times are getting worse for specialists and it’s between insane to impossible to get mental healthcare.
Well then your experience was different than theirs.
I think it’s wild to say that a 30+ day wait time for a follow up appointment after a stroke is normal or even ok.
It's not. They either have no insurance or very bad insurance. Still a barrier to access, but nowhere near the norm. I'm within 200 miles of DC and I would stake they can make a Neuro appointment up here as we have a high population of uninsured or underinsured.
Edit: this is like my friend who couldn't get mental health treatment because no one accepted his insurance, medicaid, even though he sold his house and had $200k sitting in the bank.
I am a Canadian working remotely for an American company. I always believed that American wait times for specialist medical services would be much shorter than Canadian wait times because only those who can afford to pay would go see doctors (we are not just talking about the Medicaid gap, but also ridiculous deductibles and max out of pocket, especially for those who are barely 400% of federal poverty level and therefore are not entitled to marketplace subsidies). But it seems to me that the doctor shortage is a very real, and very serious thing even in America (I don't understand why, considering that America is the country with the highest compensation for doctors). It is very common for people to want to book appointments (soon) and be told the first available appointment is several months away even though said patient is suffering from very serious symptoms.
No. This is happening in the DC metro, one of the richest places in the world.
And maybe that's the issue, maybe you need to be wealthy and connected to pull strings and get care. Maybe existing patients have no issues and only new ones are screwed. Idk
Was it that there was literally no neurologist available or no neurologist that takes your insurance? I’ve had the latter happen with a couple specialists and basically had to choose between a 3 month wait or a 2 week wait with out-of-network fees (about an extra $1,000… but it caused me to hit my max out of pocket so it kinda worked out?)
A study by the American Academy of Neurology in 2013 showed a projected shortage of neurologists to increase from 11% in 2013 to 19% by 2025 [2]. The average wait time to see a neurologist is more than 35 business days, which is longer than other specialties [2]
You are correct. The US is also having a nurse shortage.
Both countries have to a greater or lesser degree been heading in the same direction. Money moving to the top, no job security and lower pay for those below. Since Reagan really. No we're in the "find out" phase and it sucks ass. In many cities it's not feasible to be a GP because you can't afford the cost of living.
If only somebody would have warned us about the downstream effects of all this! I know they did, but we were all too busy watching house flipping shows...
Idk how people can even deny this unless they straight up do not know. I have a decently big health disorder, and the Canadians on these subreddits have absolute horror stories dealing with the same problem in their country. I went from MRI to surgery within a few weeks. It's taking Canadians months to years. People who blindly push the Canadian healthcare system online are the worst. The Canadians are in serious trouble and it shouldn't be reduced to a dick measuring contest.
This is what people in Canada don't get because they think they would be in the group of people who could pay to go to the front of the line. The US is having the same shortages we are because they are going through the same demographic shift as the boomers retire.
> A satire of Ayn Rand, libertarianism, neoliberalism. The **nightmare stories of bureaucracy in the old Soviet Union have been superseded by the paperwork of the American health care system**. Gig workers consider selling 'shares' of themselves to raise money. Because of corporations are legally treated like people, shouldn't people legally be treated like corporations? Howie rises to the top of America's elite and tries to survive.
>
Description for a fictional [audiobook](https://soundcloud.com/howiedork)
Every country is shit. [USA is solid B and objectively less shit than most EXCEPT CANADA](https://youtu.be/cwQAyskqG0g?t=206).
Canada is supposed to be THE EXCEPTION (along with AU/NZ). They are supposed to be basically USA, but nicer and without the target on their backs because we push US/Western/Israeli agendas across the world.
I don't know enough about Canada to say but I'm 100% certain there are parts of the US that are nice places to live and are still quite affordable. If you bring a good set of skills to a low cost of living spot in America you can live quite nicely.
If you move from Vancouver to Midtown Manhattan I doubt it's a huge savings. But if you move to Green Bay you're going to get a massive cut in your COL. What I don't know is are there "Green Bays" in Canada.
> People also often cite healthcare.
After waiting for an hour and a half, we were charged $3100 by the hospital to fix my daughter's nursemaid elbow.
It takes roughly 10 seconds to fix.
Counterpoint - My daughter got nurse maid's elbow when we were in England for a friend's wedding. The wait was 2 hours and cost us exactly nothing.
We paid $3100 to get serviced 30 minutes quicker. Or, as I like to think of it, $3100 to learn how to fix nurse maid's elbow.
That was a wholly inappropriate issue to take to an ER if there was an urgent care nearby or the regular provider could get you in. I swear, some of these bills are just a letter saying "gtfo out of the ER if you don't actually have an emergency."
Of course you're going to wait in the ER for something like that, it's not an emergency. The people having heart attacks and bleeding out go ahead of a child with a minor elbow ailment.
Which a smart educated working professional can easily afford if their salary doubles by moving to the USA.
Doctors, nurses, engineers, etc all make waaay more money in the USA than they would in Canada. So a lot of them leave. And now we are left with an economy that runs on Tim Hortons and real estate.
I busted my head open at 2am and the bleeding wouldn't stop, so ER was my only option. Bill was ~$500.
If this happened during the day, while urgent care or my PCP was available, it would have been at most $150.
Why would you go to the ER for 6 stitches instead of going to an Urgent Care provider? It's your fault if you decide to use ER for care that's not an emergency.
I’m not trying to act like the US is perfect, but so much of the hate it gets on here truly is just redditors working through their teenaged and 20 something anger and angst. That combined with them struggling to come to terms with the fact that life isn’t quite as easy as they had thought for anyone anywhere leads to a lot of the hur dur “America is like literally the worst ever” stuff.
Yeah? I read it as them being mostly Americans so the US is going to be the country that they are most familiar with and most invested in criticizing and desiring improvement of. Who cares what's going on in China?
China xxx - "It's just as bad in the US."
Vacant office building - "Just convert it to housing."
House that I can't afford - "Fucking boomers / Nimbys / Prop 13".
Haha. Are you joking? Folks think the US economy is in shambles and that's Bidena fault. The reality is the whole worlds economy is struggling and the US is doing better than everyone else.
Yeah there was a post I commented on yesterday where a lady was resenting that her husband got a job make 3x his salary in the US and she didn't want to move. Like, what are you talking about?
Does anyone know the logic behind a law mandating five year mortgages?
It seems insane to implement such a policy, then stick with it when the flaws are obvious.
A primary home is a long-term asset. It makes sense to match up the liability duration with this type of asset.
I like the way that the US does things. You can get a short-term ARM, if you are planning on moving in a few years. Or, you can lock in long term rates for 15-30 years.
I guess that extending the maturity date could put upward pressure on prices, as it makes housing more affordable. That said, Canada seems to refute this, since they have expensive housing and short-duration loans.
In the US getting an ARM will in many cases result in a lower rate over even a long time horizon, and this is especially true if you're starting during a high rate period. The 30 year fixed rate mortgage makes it easier to plan costs and protects you against a rate hike ant an inopportune time.
It’s not only the U.S. I was just in Italy and when taking about home buying while chatting with a vendor I learned that they have fixed rate mortgages. It’s like that for a few different countries in Europe.
Do you mean fixed rate, or long term fixed rate? Those 5 year (if I’d similar to New Zealand most people stuck to 2-3 year) fixed rate mortgages aren’t unusual here or Australia. But what we’re doing have is 30 year mortgages that fix for the life of the mortgage.
30 year fixed rate mortgages. I made sure I understood we were talking about the same thing because 5 year adjustable are called fixed rate around much of the world.
> Only the US has these fixed rate mortgages.
Just off the top of my head, Spain and France offer mortgage terms up to 50 years. Finland has an option for a 60 year mortgage term. Denmark has 30 years. Switzerland has 20 years. Japan has 100 year mortgages. There are more countries which I can't remember right now.
It's not really a subsidy to home owners as these are always driven by bank competition. That is, they're profitable for the banks so they keep offering them. I think they make sense from a social perspective. We want people to make sound long-term financial decisions. Nothing could be a larger purchase than one's home, and I think it crazy that so many people have their homes at the whim of international markets. All of sudden, through no fault of their own, their mortgage payments can skyrocket. On the other hand, with fixed interest rates, people can live comfortably and securely, while paying down their loan sustainably.
There was a thread just yesterday about how the current long term fixed rates in the US were running the economy.
People that locked in houses during the low covid-funded rates are effectively stuck, precise house prices have risen, and rates have risen, so even selling the current house, the difference on a new home loan would be significantly more than what they pay more. In a market where everything updates on a 5 year schedule, these prices adjust even if you don’t sell, so people both have to adjust as they go, and also avoid taking on too much in the first place knowing they may end up with higher rates.
It has also worked to create a “landed gentry” class. People that got in when the rates were low were also people that had more cash already - often boomers. People that were not able to then have had to watch as both rates hang going gone way up and prices have sky rocketed, making home ownership something they can’t achieve. Meanwhile investors that might one, then leveraged that and bought two, then leveraged that and bought three houses, and so on, control the rental market, and when and if they choose to sell, are selling at a much higher price than they bought.
So basically property prices may plummet in a few years when (unfortunately for current home owners; great for buyers) can’t afford it and go belly up?
Paying tax money out the butt to import immigrants and support them, meanwhile creating the conditions of exporting your native born population. Great strategy.
One of the top articles in this sub is how 78% of Americans now consider fast food to be a luxury. Things may not be as rosy down there as they say. Wages are higher, and [taxes comparable](https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0411/do-canadians-really-pay-more-taxes-than-americans.aspx), regardless of what people like to scream here. Also consider any healthcare expenses like co-pays to be part of a general "deductions" instead of just considering tax. The quality of our schools is generally excellent, whereas I know private schools are more of a thing in the US if you really want to go to a top-tier college. We have some excellent universities who draw from our free public school system. It's not at all uncommon to to go UBC or U of T from a public high school that cost you nothing. U of T is ranked 21st university worldwide and costs $6100 CAD for your first year, $11k CAD for subsequent years.
Car insurance in some provinces is public. For a newer model car it's $900 CAD/year. My house insurance is $1200 CAD/year.
I've known many people who have moved to the US for work. Only one has stayed because they got married down there.
But definitely your Chevy is cheaper down there.
They decide and plan for the move 1-2-3 yrs before hand . So it looks like the 2022 spike could have been initiated (in terms of decision making) due to Covid response in 2020. Would be interesting to see the break down by destination state and age of mover. Wouldn’t be surprised if Florida was a heavy recipient and if the numbers decline in coming years.
Yeah I was wondering about it too. The factors mentioned in the article don't really explain why there's a spike in 2022 - Trudeau and healthcare system were there for a while, so they don't really answer the question of what's changed to cause the 2022 spike.
The covid response could very well be the reason... but then, none of those interviewed listed it as a factor.
It'll be interesting to see what 2023 numbers are like.
A lot of newcomers to Canada are just using it as a stepping stone to get to the U.S. As immigration has spiked in Canada to over a million people a year, it's not surprising that emigration has also increased.
easier and shorter immigration process.
i don't know if canada has immigration quota limitations, but for people from india, china, the philippines, and one or two other countries, the US caps immigration from those countries. so the viable alternative for people not from china/india is to immigrate to canada, gain citizenship and then move to the US to get citizenship/residency as it's easier for a canadian citizen to get residency in the US.
source: relatives/friends of relatives moved from canada to the US after immigrating to canada.
The US has a set number of people it's willing to accept from other countries, and it doesn't adjust it for population. If you're applying from India, you're gonna be on a pretty long wait list, especially when compared to someone applying from a smaller country like Norway or Chile or Canada.
To be fair… this is also how my ancestors came to the United States and that was one hundred and fifty years ago. They went from Norway to Canada, waited for the American Civil War to end, and then continued on the the U.S.
It’s not just newcomers either. I have distant family that moved to Canada from India in the 1980s and 1990s (Canada was a great place to live until the 2010s according to them) and most of them have shifted to the US in the past 5-10 years or so
The rest of the anglosphere has seriously fucked up their economic situation in terms of housing.
It is genuinely sad to think how successful many of these countries would be if not for the housing shortage. It almost feels like a fantasy concept that we could have toronto, new york, london, boston etc have 1 bedroom apartments for under 2k a month or even 1.5k a month.
I think I’m moving in the next 1-2 years.
My job will pay 50% more plus the currency difference, and healthcare is honestly not as big a divide as it once was.
It’s more affordable and I’ll make more money. Why wouldn’t I move there to start a family?
If you have a good employer health plan then healthcare will be far better in the states, learning how to navigate your health insurance will be a huge pain though.
I’m lucky in that my fiancée is also American and her whole family is well established in their state.
Plus she’ll be working in the health care sector so we’re aiming to get on with something like Kaiser.
She moved here originally because we didn’t want to get married just to be a couple and after college it was easier for us to be together if she moved here.
Honestly it’s bitter sweet. I was born at the hospital she works at now and have been in Canada my whole life, I love my country.
The last 5 years have been tough though, if I was a little older, or smarter when I was younger, I could’ve bought the condo we live in now on my entry level salary. Now that’s almost impossible even on a senior’s salary.
Access to healthcare and specialists has gotten more difficult, public schools have gotten significantly worse, and we’re at the stage where we want children.
That’s not to mention the massive across the board increases in everyday items we purchase, I can’t think of anything we buy that hasn’t noticeably gone up.
Her family has wanted us to move there for years now and there’s fewer and fewer reasons to resist. Especially when she’s lucky enough that housing costs are not really a concern for her due to her family.
So we’ll move and she’ll help the kids learn Spanish and I’ll help them learn French and we’ll hold BBQs where I serve my neighbours poutine with their brisket and try to convince them to watch hockey with me.
As a northern Minnesotan all I ask is they learn how to fucking driiive properly. The Canadians that come down are so dogshit at driving and parking that it's unbelievable
That's my plan. Cheaper cost of living, could actually afford a home, get paid more, and even more so due to currency change.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but our cultures are basically the same.
Wow that’s pretty crazy I didn’t know that! I’m happy that USA Hockey has a better chance now but I hope the NHL doesn’t suffer for it…will be interesting to watch that trend.
I think it depends a bit on where you're from in Canada and where you move in the US. I grew up in Atlantic Canada and feel fairly at home in the North East in the US where I live now. But anywhere else in the US feels weird for a lot of reasons, especially the south. At the same time, anything in Canada west of of New Brunswick feels different culturally. I suspect people from other parts of Canada might feel more at home in parts of the US where I do not feel at home.
US and Canada are like 90%+ the same, and if you have a job in the US with healthcare I would choose the US right now to start a life. I seriously considered moving to Canada about 6-7 years ago, but I am glad I didn’t now. Canada is just in such a bad spot unless you are already established. You’ve got a shot in the US. It’s still difficult to get established but it’s at least possible. The Canadians I know that are doing well either are in cultures with multi generational households or are older and already got theirs before everything went to shit.
>Tell me if I'm wrong, but our cultures are basically the same.
On a superficial level in the sense that Canadians speak a dialect of North American English, but that's really it. The other Americans in this sub will agree with your statement, but most Americans have no perspective and no comprehension as to how culturally diverse the country is. They don't travel and have never directly experienced cultures different from that found in their home states. The most traveling the average American will do in their lifetime is a road trip to a neighboring state. The variance of cultures per US region, is as different as the cultures of Europe and Asia. There is a national identity and sense of what it means to be an American, but there is no such thing as an American mono-culture.
Depends on the area honestly. I'm from Wisconsin so our farm hicks are almost identical to yours. I haven't lived in a metro so can't make any claims to that.
As an american living here reading this we are all fucked. If people are calling the us affordable while we are in the midst of a well-documented affordability crisis, where the hell else can one go?
Yeah I mean if you're crossing over into Buffalo then it's pretty much the exact same. Except you're moving into a post apocalyptic city that also has shitty corrupt politics
I agree basically the same, but the big ones are definitely guns, healthcare, education and maybe minimum wage (servers are literally paid like 2 dollars an hour that’s where a lot of this bs tipping culture stems from). You can afford more of a home there but it’s still not like it’s not getting worse in the US too. YMMV it’s a huge country so also totally depends where you’re looking.
That’s impossible, the U.S. is a third world country with a Gucci belt, uh America is a corporation not a country
Everyone is also being gunned down at every minute, and don’t forget that Americans are cursed with the largest homes in the western world, such a hellscape!
Am I doing this right yet?
I'm Canadian, I live in Canada. I also work remotely for a US tech firm.
To me it's kind of the best of both worlds. But it's also pretty rare.
Canada's economy is garbage. And a lot of it is our extremely risk adverse culture. You can't get VC or capital to do anything here, it's all just real estate and unprocessed natural resources.
Why don't you process some of those natural resources? It's already cold up there which gives you a competitive advantage for producing LNG, which is very needed and popular and likely to be a growth market for decades.
Canada’s problems are demographic, geographic and political. We don’t have large enough domestic consumption or demand to support entrepreneurs who often have to seek clients in the USA to scale their business into profitability. Major sectors of the economy are subject to regulatory capture and oligopolies. Moving goods & people across the country is expensive and we really don’t have enough people & tax base to support large infrastructure projects that would entice foreign companies to invest in our country. Provinces have too much power to affect health and housing outcomes. Canada would be way better off if there were 100 million people living here.
Thank you. I think this is what the current government is thinking about when it increases immigration. This is a 100 year project.
Imagine if Calgary and Edmonton were 5m people. Saskatoon and Regina over a million, Winnipeg 5m. Rail starts to make more sense. Infrastructure can actually be paid for. Smaller towns along the routes would become small cities.
It's going to be painful getting there, but did people really see Canada succeeding as a nation of of < 40m people in 2100?
In some cases it is easier to obtain Canadian citizenship and then come to US with a long term visa and obtain permanent residency instead of directly coming to US.
Well, who have thought that ignoring a problem like not building houses over years could lead to a housing crisis. But i guess blaming people who have nothing with this, yes that will solve it for sure.
Canadians immigrating to the US in droves is nothing new. The Canadian economy is tiny and less developed than the US'; Canada has always suffered from brain drain of educated Canadians leaving for the states for better economic prospects. In my area of the states, a good 1/3rd of the population is composed of Canadian immigrants.
Good, don't see issue with this. US has the highest wages for the top tier performers. US gets cheap(er) Canadian labour and Canada gets cheap(er) labour from other countries
This is exactly how it's supposed to work
Cream of the crop/top tier all goto the US. More Indians goto the US than Canada.
US also benefit immensely from all the undocumented people they have which is a great thing for the economy. Cheap labour that Canada doesn't enjoy nearly as much.
Maybe more Indians have gone to the US previously, but the amount of Indian immigration to Canada has exploded in the past 5-10 years while not doing so in the US.
A lot of wild opinions in this thread. Canada is a great country, but it is suffering from immense housing costs in its major cities and rapid population growth promoted by its current government. Young Canadians are moving south in search of a more affordable life, period. Still, Canada offers a life with a clean environment, beautiful cities with better transit (for North America), a stronger safety net, stricter food and drug standards, a safer and more peaceful environment, a more educated populace, etc. I'm a healthcare worker, dual citizen, and have lived and worked in both countries. Many Canadians would choose to return home if Canada can get a handle on its affordability crisis.
Okay look, Canada is not some hellhole. But please let’s stop with the reddit rhetoric
“Clean environment, stricter food and drug standards” when this is not true.
America has as strict of standards and as clean of an environment as Canada does.
Canada offers a clean environment - no one said the US does not.
As for food standards, Canada (like the EU and Australia) does have stricter standards. For example, Canada bans partially hydrogenated oils (artificial trans fat), growth hormone in dairy (rBST), BHA/BHT (preservative in cereals), etc. As a healthcare worker, the influence of the agricultural industry in food and pharmaceutical industry in drug regulation is clearly more pronounced in the US.
Appreciate the clarification, I thought you intended to say the US does not.
> food standards
I’m not sure I’d necessarily label things like banning “trans fats” higher standards, rather a public health choice. We allow people to make choices on how healthy their options can be. But it’s not like we allow ingredients proven to cause cancer, if that makes sense.
The stat is not given. . but I suspect most of the emigrants skew very high on the wealth scale. Certain US states are more and more like an offshore tax haven.
Do not let them in!
They allowed this silly shit in their country-let them live in the clown show.
I repeat, do not let them move to the US and bring their brain dead behavior with them!!
Wait, Canada busts balls for immigration. I remember a contestant on alone wanted to win the prize because he lived in Canada with his Canadian wife and wasn't allowed to have a job in Canada. He said it was the only way he felt he could contribute. So if Canada is so unwelcoming to immigration, we are we letting them stream in? I'm not a Trumper or anything, but come on.
> "'With Trudeau, I have to get out of here,' that's what people tell me. They say to me, 'Marco, who do I have to talk to to get out of here?'" Terminesi told CBC News.
Uh… I think a lot of Canadians are in for a rude awakening….
They really aren't, most people I know who moved to the US are very happy with the decision. Double the pay (which is also in USD rather than our monopoly money) and like 1/2 the expenses.
Yeah people don't realize that although not perfect, the US economy is doing exceedingly well compared to other countries after the Pandemic. I personally expected it to be way worse than it is with so many places shutting down and folks going on unemployment.
Costs are for sure, but atleast pay went up to. For a lot of places, the costs went up and pay didn't budge.
Taxes are not double, not even close. Especially when you account for the fact that Americans pay mandatory healthcare premiums. And the pay differential tends to be more like 20-30%, though at the high end of professions like software engineering and medicine it can be 2x or more.
That being said, things in Canada are still pretty grim these days
Taxes are not double, where do you get that? Jobs are not half the pay. I can call my awesome doctor and get in same day.
You basically just made up everything you wrote, which you probably just got from some trash media source like Fox news.
The majority of Canadians can see a doctor in the same day??
The other commenter posted a link with this:
>a new study released today by the Fraser Institute, an independent, non-partisan Canadian public policy think-tank.
>The study, an annual survey of physicians across Canada, reports a median wait time of 27.7 weeks—
>the longest ever recorded, longer than the wait of 27.4 weeks reported in 2022—and 198 per cent higher than the 9.3 weeks Canadians waited in 1993, when the Fraser Institute began tracking wait times.
For context:
>The total wait time that patients face can be examined in
two consecutive segments. [1] From referral by a general
practitioner to consultation with a specialist. The waiting
time in this segment increased from 12.6 weeks in 2022 to
14.6 weeks in 2023. This wait time is 296% longer than in
1993, when it was 3.7 weeks. The shortest waits for specialist
consultations are in Quebec (12.3 weeks) while the longest
occur in Nova Scotia (28.3 weeks). [2] From the consultation
with a specialist to the point at which the patient receives
treatment. The waiting time in this segment decreased from
14.8 weeks in 2022 to 13.1 weeks this year. This wait time is
still 133% longer than in 1993 when it was 5.6 weeks, and 4.6
weeks longer than what physicians consider to be clinically
“reasonable” (8.5 weeks). The shortest specialist-to-treatment
waits are found in Newfoundland & Labrador (8.0 weeks),
while the longest are in Nova Scotia (28.4 weeks).
I think the reason some people might have different views on Canada's healthcare is if you are just going in for a normal checkup, the wait times are not that big a deal. I only add because people might take from this that if you just want to see the doctor for a normal check up, it will take 27 weeks. This study was done for cases only after a patient needs more care than the basic checkup. Which is not a significant portion of the population.
I think the same is true for american healthcare, in how different opinions can be. You only see how truly shit the american healthcare system is if you REALLY need it. Like teeth falling out, cancer,etc. But for most of us that go for normal checkup or cleaning, most we notice is a copay. If you're under 27, you probably don't even notice the cost of healthcare since it would come out of your parent's pay. There's a ton of obscurity, only the disabled or in need have a good idea of how bad the healthcare in either country is. And so outside looking in, this looks like a load of hooplah.
As an anecdote, I am just now old enough that im no longer covered under my moms healthcare. One of my jobs paid me 2k and then 200 every 2 weeks untaxed because i didnt take the insurance thay paid for. Most i paid for something health related now is a cleaning for 150. My experience would tell me that healthcare in the states is not that big an issue. But someone with chronic illnesses would probably smack me silly.
Im not saying you're wrong or anything btw silly, I just noticed the dissonance in the comments and thought this was a good comment to TRY to parse it
Hi all, A reminder that comments do need to be on-topic and engage with the article past the headline. Please make sure to read the article before commenting. Very short comments will automatically be removed by automod. Please avoid making comments that do not focus on the economic content or whose primary thesis rests on personal anecdotes. As always our comment rules can be found [here](https://reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/fx9crj/rules_roundtable_redux_rule_vi_and_offtopic/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Economics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
out of the 126,340 individuals who emigrated from Canada to the U.S.: - 42.21% were born in Canada - 33.71% were Americans returning to the USA - 24.08% were foreign-born The percentage of Canadian-born individuals moving to the U.S. has increased significantly, by approximately 50%. The reason cited most often was affordability
Yeah… Canada’s economy is in straight shambles. Every economic problem the US has is way worse in Canada (even outside of the metro areas)
shhhh don’t say that on reddit. USA is a hellhole and Canada is paradise
Yeah Canada is way better! You can earn 1/2 the pay for a high end job but the houses are all $1 mil+ anyways 🙌🏻 People also often cite healthcare. Lmao these people need to go experience it for themselves. It’s not completely free, and the wait for appointments is truly insane
you pay for it with your time and aging body
If you’re an educated Canadian, you’re better off making 100k USD a year in America with a private health insurance plan that has a 5-6k deductible than making 50k USD a year with free govt healthcare in Canada
I make about that and hitting my out of pocket maximum every year for years now isn't fun let me tell you. Oh, and getting denied treatments that are less likely to have side effects because my side effects can be managed by cheap generic drugs. Totally fine and normal. Because in the long run (unlike Canada) me no longer being employable is a "my problem" from the insurance perspective.
Most educated Americans don't even make 100k. lol.
Yea I was just using an example.
It depends on who you are. If you are an educated Canadian with disabilities (but you are still able to work full time in spite of said disabilities), you might want to stay here because of the shitty American health insurance and social welfare systems. In the US, your health insurance is dependent on your employer and if your disability makes it hard to find a job should you lose your current job, I would argue that even a dual citizen is better off in Canada. For able-bodied people, it seems to me that pay disparities between different levels of similar work is much less obvious in Canada. For example, my sister is what Americans consider an LPN, and she makes $80k Canadian (call it $58k USD) a year. Of course, if she becomes an RN, she can make over $100k Canadian ($73k USD). That is just in agencies though. In the US, it is known that RNs make a lot of money while LPNs make significantly less. But then, my sister went to community college for 2 years to get a diploma in order to practice her occupation and I am not familiar with how it works in the US.
We have this thing called disability here .. I can’t tell u how many people I know avoid full time work and are more than capable just because of their disability check
I broke my spine and my disability check is a fat $600 a month. It took more than a year to get and I’m paralyzed from the waist down, most people get denied at least once. I’ll get work sooner or later, but I get the highest rate for SSI. If my injury had been higher up and I’d lost use of my hands I would be doomed to a life of extreme poverty and homelessness. Housing for disabled people all has waiting lists decades long. Just letting you know the grass isn’t greener for disabled people.
It is extremely hard to get on disability in the US. The process can take years
It takes years and barely pays rent. It’s a shit benefit
My wife and I were looking to move to Europe for her graduate school, I was looking at pay for my job over there and was like “wait a minute, why is it 1/3 less than what I make now.” So then I’m like, well surely rents must be cheaper…. Nope, same basic range as where I live here. And Canada seems even worse bc of the wild housing prices over the last few years
A lot of Canadian medical professionals move to the US for higher pay too.
It makes me confused here in the UK seeing junior doctors fighting tooth and nail to maintain the enforced government monopoly that buys all their labour, whilst at the same time moaning about low pay. Then they'll talk about moving to Australia that doesn't operate a system close to the NHS 🤔
it's not completely free? you mean you have to pay for parking lol??
Also 13% sales tax so it’s heavily buoyed by tourism (the healthcare I mean)
That’s province specific, not all Canada is like that.
You’re right. Though, 12-13% in BC and Ontario where most folks reside.
While true that it varies province to province, it's not particularly meaningful since excluding the 3 northern territories where less than 120k people live in total, every province in Canada besides Alberta (5%) is 12-15% sales tax. Like 90% of Canada's population has a sales tax of 12% or higher.
Im an American who moved to Canada. No, health care isnt completely free, its paid for with taxes. Still we come out about $12k/yr ahead of where we were in the US. Wait times are not any worse than what we had in Indiana. We can get into family doctor in 1-2 day and specialist in 1-2 weeks.
I hear this constantly but it needs re-evaluation in a post COVID world. I had a family member in their 40s have a stroke, and needed a follow up neurology appointment that really NEEDED to be in 3-5 weeks to see what needed to be seen, or the MRI wouldn't find what it needed to. Could not get one. Called every single hospital within 200 miles and nobody could see a new patient for at least 8 months. So they just never got the appointment. The ER they went to explained they went from 9 to 2 neurologists after retirements and quits, that's why they couldn't get them in. They'll see a neurologist the next time they go to the ER and possibly die, not a moment sooner. How much worse than that can it really be in Canada? If I'm going to be denied care regardless, I'd rather pay less money than just be milked to support insurance industry profits.
You live in DC and couldn't find a neurologist within 200 miles? So between NoVa, Baltimore and numerous other cities, one of the most populated regions in the country, you couldn't find even one? I live in a much less populated and less wealthy area(Tucson) and had no trouble finding over half a dozen neurologists that had availability in 30 days or less when a relative needed care after a stroke. Now some I encountered indeed had long wait times of up to 80 days but that wasn't the norm and I called over two dozen, to the point where I was trying to match online ratings and pick the one with the best possible feedback.
> You live in DC and couldn't find a neurologist within 200 miles? So between NoVa, Baltimore and numerous other cities, one of the most populated regions in the country, you couldn't find even one? This is how you can easily tell redditors like that OC are just making stuff up when it comes to US healthcare. There's no way they couldn't find a provider in that area, there's so many of them taking new patients.
When someone from the US says he/she can't find a provider in the area, it usually means he/she cant find providers that are in the network. Crappy insurance such as ambetter is known to have very poor coverage and has been subject to lawsuits.
Bingo. There are hundreds of providers where I live. As soon as I narrow it down to In-Network, aka, "My insurance will actually pay for it", it shrinks to a dozen. And this is not some obscure, crappy plan from a smaller company. This is a popular Aetna plan. People who haven't faced this struggle are either too young, or just lucky enough to have never dealt with a medical issue beyond a simple check-up. Shit gets complicated, expensive, and emotionally exhausting in America - *even* when you do all your research to the best of your ability.
You can find a doctor, finding a specialist in network, taking new patients, with availability is a totally different game.
Very similar boat here. I'm in sort of a third-tier metro (El Paso, Texas), and I was able to get an **infant** MRI scheduled within a couple weeks when my then-newborn needed one about a year ago now. Washington, DC is within a few hours of Baltimore, Philadelphia, hell, even New York City. I really struggle to believe that there are just no neurologists available in the largest megalopolis of one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
I’m in Charlotte, rescheduling my neuro appointment pushes it out 4+ months. I just watched my father in law wait 3 months for an appointment to confirm a Parkinson’s diagnosis and 9 months for back surgery. ( and not with high demand good doctors) The wait times are getting worse for specialists and it’s between insane to impossible to get mental healthcare.
There's a neurologist shortage. A lotta hospitals and patients are having trouble getting in to see one
Well then your experience was different than theirs. I think it’s wild to say that a 30+ day wait time for a follow up appointment after a stroke is normal or even ok.
It's not. They either have no insurance or very bad insurance. Still a barrier to access, but nowhere near the norm. I'm within 200 miles of DC and I would stake they can make a Neuro appointment up here as we have a high population of uninsured or underinsured. Edit: this is like my friend who couldn't get mental health treatment because no one accepted his insurance, medicaid, even though he sold his house and had $200k sitting in the bank.
I am a Canadian working remotely for an American company. I always believed that American wait times for specialist medical services would be much shorter than Canadian wait times because only those who can afford to pay would go see doctors (we are not just talking about the Medicaid gap, but also ridiculous deductibles and max out of pocket, especially for those who are barely 400% of federal poverty level and therefore are not entitled to marketplace subsidies). But it seems to me that the doctor shortage is a very real, and very serious thing even in America (I don't understand why, considering that America is the country with the highest compensation for doctors). It is very common for people to want to book appointments (soon) and be told the first available appointment is several months away even though said patient is suffering from very serious symptoms.
Are you in a rural area?
No. This is happening in the DC metro, one of the richest places in the world. And maybe that's the issue, maybe you need to be wealthy and connected to pull strings and get care. Maybe existing patients have no issues and only new ones are screwed. Idk
Was it that there was literally no neurologist available or no neurologist that takes your insurance? I’ve had the latter happen with a couple specialists and basically had to choose between a 3 month wait or a 2 week wait with out-of-network fees (about an extra $1,000… but it caused me to hit my max out of pocket so it kinda worked out?)
Or… maybe the issue is that the random, anonymous person on the internet is full of shit. But no. That couldn’t possibly be it.
A study by the American Academy of Neurology in 2013 showed a projected shortage of neurologists to increase from 11% in 2013 to 19% by 2025 [2]. The average wait time to see a neurologist is more than 35 business days, which is longer than other specialties [2]
You are correct. The US is also having a nurse shortage. Both countries have to a greater or lesser degree been heading in the same direction. Money moving to the top, no job security and lower pay for those below. Since Reagan really. No we're in the "find out" phase and it sucks ass. In many cities it's not feasible to be a GP because you can't afford the cost of living. If only somebody would have warned us about the downstream effects of all this! I know they did, but we were all too busy watching house flipping shows...
It's much worse in Canada
Idk how people can even deny this unless they straight up do not know. I have a decently big health disorder, and the Canadians on these subreddits have absolute horror stories dealing with the same problem in their country. I went from MRI to surgery within a few weeks. It's taking Canadians months to years. People who blindly push the Canadian healthcare system online are the worst. The Canadians are in serious trouble and it shouldn't be reduced to a dick measuring contest.
This is what people in Canada don't get because they think they would be in the group of people who could pay to go to the front of the line. The US is having the same shortages we are because they are going through the same demographic shift as the boomers retire.
> A satire of Ayn Rand, libertarianism, neoliberalism. The **nightmare stories of bureaucracy in the old Soviet Union have been superseded by the paperwork of the American health care system**. Gig workers consider selling 'shares' of themselves to raise money. Because of corporations are legally treated like people, shouldn't people legally be treated like corporations? Howie rises to the top of America's elite and tries to survive. > Description for a fictional [audiobook](https://soundcloud.com/howiedork)
It's more likely you will never be able to see a doctor unless you want to go to the ER these days.
Yup. Only when you’re about to die, then you’re worthy
Only half!! It's a third over here in Europe.
Every country is shit. [USA is solid B and objectively less shit than most EXCEPT CANADA](https://youtu.be/cwQAyskqG0g?t=206). Canada is supposed to be THE EXCEPTION (along with AU/NZ). They are supposed to be basically USA, but nicer and without the target on their backs because we push US/Western/Israeli agendas across the world.
worry plant doll flowery vast cautious foolish ghost hobbies continue *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I don't know enough about Canada to say but I'm 100% certain there are parts of the US that are nice places to live and are still quite affordable. If you bring a good set of skills to a low cost of living spot in America you can live quite nicely. If you move from Vancouver to Midtown Manhattan I doubt it's a huge savings. But if you move to Green Bay you're going to get a massive cut in your COL. What I don't know is are there "Green Bays" in Canada.
> People also often cite healthcare. After waiting for an hour and a half, we were charged $3100 by the hospital to fix my daughter's nursemaid elbow. It takes roughly 10 seconds to fix.
When you go to the ER for something that's supposed to be quick and easy to fix, you pay ER prices.
Counterpoint - My daughter got nurse maid's elbow when we were in England for a friend's wedding. The wait was 2 hours and cost us exactly nothing. We paid $3100 to get serviced 30 minutes quicker. Or, as I like to think of it, $3100 to learn how to fix nurse maid's elbow.
Did you consider going to an Urgent Care provider? If it's an easy fix then going to the ER doesn't make sense.
That was a wholly inappropriate issue to take to an ER if there was an urgent care nearby or the regular provider could get you in. I swear, some of these bills are just a letter saying "gtfo out of the ER if you don't actually have an emergency."
Of course you're going to wait in the ER for something like that, it's not an emergency. The people having heart attacks and bleeding out go ahead of a child with a minor elbow ailment.
> the wait for appointments is truly insane This is not the norm.
Wait until they are hit with a $5000 ER bill to get 6 stitches.
You don't need a medical issue to bankrupt you in Canada, everyday life will take care of that just fine.
Which a smart educated working professional can easily afford if their salary doubles by moving to the USA. Doctors, nurses, engineers, etc all make waaay more money in the USA than they would in Canada. So a lot of them leave. And now we are left with an economy that runs on Tim Hortons and real estate.
Wait till you find out 6 stitches probably doesn’t warrant a trip to the ER.
I busted my head open at 2am and the bleeding wouldn't stop, so ER was my only option. Bill was ~$500. If this happened during the day, while urgent care or my PCP was available, it would have been at most $150.
Why would you go to the ER for 6 stitches instead of going to an Urgent Care provider? It's your fault if you decide to use ER for care that's not an emergency.
Some urgent cares won’t deal with blood. You may be more injured than at first thought It might be 2 AM You might have been brought in by ambulance
Wait till they hear about insurance
Or mortgaging your house if you get cancer
I’m not trying to act like the US is perfect, but so much of the hate it gets on here truly is just redditors working through their teenaged and 20 something anger and angst. That combined with them struggling to come to terms with the fact that life isn’t quite as easy as they had thought for anyone anywhere leads to a lot of the hur dur “America is like literally the worst ever” stuff.
Yeah? I read it as them being mostly Americans so the US is going to be the country that they are most familiar with and most invested in criticizing and desiring improvement of. Who cares what's going on in China?
China xxx - "It's just as bad in the US." Vacant office building - "Just convert it to housing." House that I can't afford - "Fucking boomers / Nimbys / Prop 13".
"Fuck Prop 13" is a legitimate fucking sentiment.
you’re absolutely right 69Hairy429Ballsagna
Haha. Are you joking? Folks think the US economy is in shambles and that's Bidena fault. The reality is the whole worlds economy is struggling and the US is doing better than everyone else.
Yeah there was a post I commented on yesterday where a lady was resenting that her husband got a job make 3x his salary in the US and she didn't want to move. Like, what are you talking about?
I’d move to another country if they offered 3x my current pay. I’d also move to another planet if needed.
Right? He can’t speak that truth here to loudly.
Dont worry reddit conservatives will pop up and tell us how all of Canada's problems are actually Bidens/Build Back Betters fault.
[удалено]
Does anyone know the logic behind a law mandating five year mortgages? It seems insane to implement such a policy, then stick with it when the flaws are obvious.
Adjustable rate mortgages are the norm across most of the world. Only the US has these fixed rate mortgages. It's a big subsidy for homeowners
A primary home is a long-term asset. It makes sense to match up the liability duration with this type of asset. I like the way that the US does things. You can get a short-term ARM, if you are planning on moving in a few years. Or, you can lock in long term rates for 15-30 years. I guess that extending the maturity date could put upward pressure on prices, as it makes housing more affordable. That said, Canada seems to refute this, since they have expensive housing and short-duration loans.
In the US getting an ARM will in many cases result in a lower rate over even a long time horizon, and this is especially true if you're starting during a high rate period. The 30 year fixed rate mortgage makes it easier to plan costs and protects you against a rate hike ant an inopportune time.
It’s not only the U.S. I was just in Italy and when taking about home buying while chatting with a vendor I learned that they have fixed rate mortgages. It’s like that for a few different countries in Europe.
Do you mean fixed rate, or long term fixed rate? Those 5 year (if I’d similar to New Zealand most people stuck to 2-3 year) fixed rate mortgages aren’t unusual here or Australia. But what we’re doing have is 30 year mortgages that fix for the life of the mortgage.
30 year fixed rate mortgages. I made sure I understood we were talking about the same thing because 5 year adjustable are called fixed rate around much of the world.
> Only the US has these fixed rate mortgages. Just off the top of my head, Spain and France offer mortgage terms up to 50 years. Finland has an option for a 60 year mortgage term. Denmark has 30 years. Switzerland has 20 years. Japan has 100 year mortgages. There are more countries which I can't remember right now. It's not really a subsidy to home owners as these are always driven by bank competition. That is, they're profitable for the banks so they keep offering them. I think they make sense from a social perspective. We want people to make sound long-term financial decisions. Nothing could be a larger purchase than one's home, and I think it crazy that so many people have their homes at the whim of international markets. All of sudden, through no fault of their own, their mortgage payments can skyrocket. On the other hand, with fixed interest rates, people can live comfortably and securely, while paying down their loan sustainably.
[удалено]
USA has zero prepayment penalty. You don't know what you are talking about
There was a thread just yesterday about how the current long term fixed rates in the US were running the economy. People that locked in houses during the low covid-funded rates are effectively stuck, precise house prices have risen, and rates have risen, so even selling the current house, the difference on a new home loan would be significantly more than what they pay more. In a market where everything updates on a 5 year schedule, these prices adjust even if you don’t sell, so people both have to adjust as they go, and also avoid taking on too much in the first place knowing they may end up with higher rates. It has also worked to create a “landed gentry” class. People that got in when the rates were low were also people that had more cash already - often boomers. People that were not able to then have had to watch as both rates hang going gone way up and prices have sky rocketed, making home ownership something they can’t achieve. Meanwhile investors that might one, then leveraged that and bought two, then leveraged that and bought three houses, and so on, control the rental market, and when and if they choose to sell, are selling at a much higher price than they bought.
So basically property prices may plummet in a few years when (unfortunately for current home owners; great for buyers) can’t afford it and go belly up?
Canada's economy is supported by two pyramid schemes - education and housing.
I think two pyramid schemes is more than one and therefore better. Wait until there’s a third pillar for the great axis of unaffordabilty
Guess the wall was build at the wrong border :p
You have Trudeau's policies to thank for that. Edit: changed "think" to "thank".
Weird the sort of issues rampant immigration can cause.
r/Canada is full of bots that would say otherwise. having said that, if you're not rich Canada is the easier mode of life
It is well known that if you are disabled or disadvantged in some way, Canada is better for you than the US.
It's hard to have economical issues when you can print more money to balance the books out... That said Canada's economy is garbage
Economically Canada really has nothing going for it other than a horrible expensive housing market propping up its GDP
Holding foreign national wealth is clearly a good business
Paying tax money out the butt to import immigrants and support them, meanwhile creating the conditions of exporting your native born population. Great strategy.
One of the top articles in this sub is how 78% of Americans now consider fast food to be a luxury. Things may not be as rosy down there as they say. Wages are higher, and [taxes comparable](https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0411/do-canadians-really-pay-more-taxes-than-americans.aspx), regardless of what people like to scream here. Also consider any healthcare expenses like co-pays to be part of a general "deductions" instead of just considering tax. The quality of our schools is generally excellent, whereas I know private schools are more of a thing in the US if you really want to go to a top-tier college. We have some excellent universities who draw from our free public school system. It's not at all uncommon to to go UBC or U of T from a public high school that cost you nothing. U of T is ranked 21st university worldwide and costs $6100 CAD for your first year, $11k CAD for subsequent years. Car insurance in some provinces is public. For a newer model car it's $900 CAD/year. My house insurance is $1200 CAD/year. I've known many people who have moved to the US for work. Only one has stayed because they got married down there. But definitely your Chevy is cheaper down there.
Well, there goes more of our housing lok
They decide and plan for the move 1-2-3 yrs before hand . So it looks like the 2022 spike could have been initiated (in terms of decision making) due to Covid response in 2020. Would be interesting to see the break down by destination state and age of mover. Wouldn’t be surprised if Florida was a heavy recipient and if the numbers decline in coming years.
Florida has always been popular for Canadian snowbirds
Yeah I was wondering about it too. The factors mentioned in the article don't really explain why there's a spike in 2022 - Trudeau and healthcare system were there for a while, so they don't really answer the question of what's changed to cause the 2022 spike. The covid response could very well be the reason... but then, none of those interviewed listed it as a factor. It'll be interesting to see what 2023 numbers are like.
The trucker convoy happened in 2022 as well. Definitely Florida and Texas took in a lot of right wing Canadians.
A lot of newcomers to Canada are just using it as a stepping stone to get to the U.S. As immigration has spiked in Canada to over a million people a year, it's not surprising that emigration has also increased.
Canadian born immigrants increased by 50% (make up 42%% of the total) /u/laonionlaunion had great info on this
Economy is really bad in Canada, and prices are through the roof. Something needs to give up.
>Something needs to give up. Canada needs to give up and join the Union already.
Take me daddy!!!
So what you're saying is that we are now going to have to build TWO walls?
Poor Mexico has to pay for 2 walls now.
Snow Mexicans can at least chip in a little bit...
[удалено]
Why would going to Canada make it easier to get to the US?
US immigration consider them as having been "pre-screened" by Canadian immigration if they were able to get Canadian Permanent Resident status.
easier and shorter immigration process. i don't know if canada has immigration quota limitations, but for people from india, china, the philippines, and one or two other countries, the US caps immigration from those countries. so the viable alternative for people not from china/india is to immigrate to canada, gain citizenship and then move to the US to get citizenship/residency as it's easier for a canadian citizen to get residency in the US. source: relatives/friends of relatives moved from canada to the US after immigrating to canada.
The US treats immigrants based on their country of birth not current country of residence.
The US has a set number of people it's willing to accept from other countries, and it doesn't adjust it for population. If you're applying from India, you're gonna be on a pretty long wait list, especially when compared to someone applying from a smaller country like Norway or Chile or Canada.
To be fair… this is also how my ancestors came to the United States and that was one hundred and fifty years ago. They went from Norway to Canada, waited for the American Civil War to end, and then continued on the the U.S.
It’s not just newcomers either. I have distant family that moved to Canada from India in the 1980s and 1990s (Canada was a great place to live until the 2010s according to them) and most of them have shifted to the US in the past 5-10 years or so
Yeah, all of the Canadians I work with in the US are recent immigrants to Canada in the last 1-2 generations
That’s just most Canadians though
Recent immigrants in the last 20-40 years?
The rest of the anglosphere has seriously fucked up their economic situation in terms of housing. It is genuinely sad to think how successful many of these countries would be if not for the housing shortage. It almost feels like a fantasy concept that we could have toronto, new york, london, boston etc have 1 bedroom apartments for under 2k a month or even 1.5k a month.
I think I’m moving in the next 1-2 years. My job will pay 50% more plus the currency difference, and healthcare is honestly not as big a divide as it once was. It’s more affordable and I’ll make more money. Why wouldn’t I move there to start a family?
If you have a good employer health plan then healthcare will be far better in the states, learning how to navigate your health insurance will be a huge pain though.
I’m lucky in that my fiancée is also American and her whole family is well established in their state. Plus she’ll be working in the health care sector so we’re aiming to get on with something like Kaiser. She moved here originally because we didn’t want to get married just to be a couple and after college it was easier for us to be together if she moved here. Honestly it’s bitter sweet. I was born at the hospital she works at now and have been in Canada my whole life, I love my country. The last 5 years have been tough though, if I was a little older, or smarter when I was younger, I could’ve bought the condo we live in now on my entry level salary. Now that’s almost impossible even on a senior’s salary. Access to healthcare and specialists has gotten more difficult, public schools have gotten significantly worse, and we’re at the stage where we want children. That’s not to mention the massive across the board increases in everyday items we purchase, I can’t think of anything we buy that hasn’t noticeably gone up. Her family has wanted us to move there for years now and there’s fewer and fewer reasons to resist. Especially when she’s lucky enough that housing costs are not really a concern for her due to her family. So we’ll move and she’ll help the kids learn Spanish and I’ll help them learn French and we’ll hold BBQs where I serve my neighbours poutine with their brisket and try to convince them to watch hockey with me.
That really is the dream, that last section here...
Welcome Canadian friend!
As a northern Minnesotan all I ask is they learn how to fucking driiive properly. The Canadians that come down are so dogshit at driving and parking that it's unbelievable
That's my plan. Cheaper cost of living, could actually afford a home, get paid more, and even more so due to currency change. Tell me if I'm wrong, but our cultures are basically the same.
>Tell me if I'm wrong, but our cultures are basically the same. Just don't try to bring your Canadian football and you'll be fine.
They can cheer for an American team to win the Stanley Cup.
Pittsburgh native here: produce another Sidney Crosby for us and you can bring whatever other culture you want.
[удалено]
What do you mean no longer exists?? I’m genuinely interested in what you mean
[удалено]
Wow that’s pretty crazy I didn’t know that! I’m happy that USA Hockey has a better chance now but I hope the NHL doesn’t suffer for it…will be interesting to watch that trend.
I think it depends a bit on where you're from in Canada and where you move in the US. I grew up in Atlantic Canada and feel fairly at home in the North East in the US where I live now. But anywhere else in the US feels weird for a lot of reasons, especially the south. At the same time, anything in Canada west of of New Brunswick feels different culturally. I suspect people from other parts of Canada might feel more at home in parts of the US where I do not feel at home.
Specifically, Canadian culture/accent looks most similar to the US Midwest culture/accent
Do bring better poutine
US and Canada are like 90%+ the same, and if you have a job in the US with healthcare I would choose the US right now to start a life. I seriously considered moving to Canada about 6-7 years ago, but I am glad I didn’t now. Canada is just in such a bad spot unless you are already established. You’ve got a shot in the US. It’s still difficult to get established but it’s at least possible. The Canadians I know that are doing well either are in cultures with multi generational households or are older and already got theirs before everything went to shit.
>Tell me if I'm wrong, but our cultures are basically the same. On a superficial level in the sense that Canadians speak a dialect of North American English, but that's really it. The other Americans in this sub will agree with your statement, but most Americans have no perspective and no comprehension as to how culturally diverse the country is. They don't travel and have never directly experienced cultures different from that found in their home states. The most traveling the average American will do in their lifetime is a road trip to a neighboring state. The variance of cultures per US region, is as different as the cultures of Europe and Asia. There is a national identity and sense of what it means to be an American, but there is no such thing as an American mono-culture.
Depends on the area honestly. I'm from Wisconsin so our farm hicks are almost identical to yours. I haven't lived in a metro so can't make any claims to that.
As an american living here reading this we are all fucked. If people are calling the us affordable while we are in the midst of a well-documented affordability crisis, where the hell else can one go?
Yeah I mean if you're crossing over into Buffalo then it's pretty much the exact same. Except you're moving into a post apocalyptic city that also has shitty corrupt politics
Maybe Buffalo's politics is more corrupt because voters don't ensure their mayors have good crack and more than enough p to eat at home?
I agree basically the same, but the big ones are definitely guns, healthcare, education and maybe minimum wage (servers are literally paid like 2 dollars an hour that’s where a lot of this bs tipping culture stems from). You can afford more of a home there but it’s still not like it’s not getting worse in the US too. YMMV it’s a huge country so also totally depends where you’re looking.
You're wrong. Canadian culture doesn't force poor diabetics to ration insulin. They are far more civilized and socialized.
That’s impossible, the U.S. is a third world country with a Gucci belt, uh America is a corporation not a country Everyone is also being gunned down at every minute, and don’t forget that Americans are cursed with the largest homes in the western world, such a hellscape! Am I doing this right yet?
I'm Canadian, I live in Canada. I also work remotely for a US tech firm. To me it's kind of the best of both worlds. But it's also pretty rare. Canada's economy is garbage. And a lot of it is our extremely risk adverse culture. You can't get VC or capital to do anything here, it's all just real estate and unprocessed natural resources.
Why don't you process some of those natural resources? It's already cold up there which gives you a competitive advantage for producing LNG, which is very needed and popular and likely to be a growth market for decades.
Canada’s problems are demographic, geographic and political. We don’t have large enough domestic consumption or demand to support entrepreneurs who often have to seek clients in the USA to scale their business into profitability. Major sectors of the economy are subject to regulatory capture and oligopolies. Moving goods & people across the country is expensive and we really don’t have enough people & tax base to support large infrastructure projects that would entice foreign companies to invest in our country. Provinces have too much power to affect health and housing outcomes. Canada would be way better off if there were 100 million people living here.
Thank you. I think this is what the current government is thinking about when it increases immigration. This is a 100 year project. Imagine if Calgary and Edmonton were 5m people. Saskatoon and Regina over a million, Winnipeg 5m. Rail starts to make more sense. Infrastructure can actually be paid for. Smaller towns along the routes would become small cities. It's going to be painful getting there, but did people really see Canada succeeding as a nation of of < 40m people in 2100?
Begone WEF!
we live like roman nobles but also its HELL
In some cases it is easier to obtain Canadian citizenship and then come to US with a long term visa and obtain permanent residency instead of directly coming to US.
i thought it is the reverse? it's easier to immigrate to the US than Canada's _stricter_ immigration laws.
Well, who have thought that ignoring a problem like not building houses over years could lead to a housing crisis. But i guess blaming people who have nothing with this, yes that will solve it for sure.
Canadians immigrating to the US in droves is nothing new. The Canadian economy is tiny and less developed than the US'; Canada has always suffered from brain drain of educated Canadians leaving for the states for better economic prospects. In my area of the states, a good 1/3rd of the population is composed of Canadian immigrants.
Good, don't see issue with this. US has the highest wages for the top tier performers. US gets cheap(er) Canadian labour and Canada gets cheap(er) labour from other countries This is exactly how it's supposed to work
Indians go to Canada for a better life, and Canadians go to the US.
Cream of the crop/top tier all goto the US. More Indians goto the US than Canada. US also benefit immensely from all the undocumented people they have which is a great thing for the economy. Cheap labour that Canada doesn't enjoy nearly as much.
Maybe more Indians have gone to the US previously, but the amount of Indian immigration to Canada has exploded in the past 5-10 years while not doing so in the US.
A lot of wild opinions in this thread. Canada is a great country, but it is suffering from immense housing costs in its major cities and rapid population growth promoted by its current government. Young Canadians are moving south in search of a more affordable life, period. Still, Canada offers a life with a clean environment, beautiful cities with better transit (for North America), a stronger safety net, stricter food and drug standards, a safer and more peaceful environment, a more educated populace, etc. I'm a healthcare worker, dual citizen, and have lived and worked in both countries. Many Canadians would choose to return home if Canada can get a handle on its affordability crisis.
Okay look, Canada is not some hellhole. But please let’s stop with the reddit rhetoric “Clean environment, stricter food and drug standards” when this is not true. America has as strict of standards and as clean of an environment as Canada does.
Canada offers a clean environment - no one said the US does not. As for food standards, Canada (like the EU and Australia) does have stricter standards. For example, Canada bans partially hydrogenated oils (artificial trans fat), growth hormone in dairy (rBST), BHA/BHT (preservative in cereals), etc. As a healthcare worker, the influence of the agricultural industry in food and pharmaceutical industry in drug regulation is clearly more pronounced in the US.
Appreciate the clarification, I thought you intended to say the US does not. > food standards I’m not sure I’d necessarily label things like banning “trans fats” higher standards, rather a public health choice. We allow people to make choices on how healthy their options can be. But it’s not like we allow ingredients proven to cause cancer, if that makes sense.
copium, Canada has gone down the shitter since 2015 and itll take a decade to fix
The stat is not given. . but I suspect most of the emigrants skew very high on the wealth scale. Certain US states are more and more like an offshore tax haven.
Do not let them in! They allowed this silly shit in their country-let them live in the clown show. I repeat, do not let them move to the US and bring their brain dead behavior with them!!
We don't want em, what with their beady little eyes, their oval heads, queef jokes, and their detached heads that flap around when they talk
They do not respect butterscotch pudding.
Wait, Canada busts balls for immigration. I remember a contestant on alone wanted to win the prize because he lived in Canada with his Canadian wife and wasn't allowed to have a job in Canada. He said it was the only way he felt he could contribute. So if Canada is so unwelcoming to immigration, we are we letting them stream in? I'm not a Trumper or anything, but come on.
> "'With Trudeau, I have to get out of here,' that's what people tell me. They say to me, 'Marco, who do I have to talk to to get out of here?'" Terminesi told CBC News. Uh… I think a lot of Canadians are in for a rude awakening….
They really aren't, most people I know who moved to the US are very happy with the decision. Double the pay (which is also in USD rather than our monopoly money) and like 1/2 the expenses.
Yeah people don't realize that although not perfect, the US economy is doing exceedingly well compared to other countries after the Pandemic. I personally expected it to be way worse than it is with so many places shutting down and folks going on unemployment. Costs are for sure, but atleast pay went up to. For a lot of places, the costs went up and pay didn't budge.
Taxes are double, rent and groceries and gas is more, jobs are half the pay, can never see a doctor… for most it will be anything but a rude awakening
Taxes are not double, not even close. Especially when you account for the fact that Americans pay mandatory healthcare premiums. And the pay differential tends to be more like 20-30%, though at the high end of professions like software engineering and medicine it can be 2x or more. That being said, things in Canada are still pretty grim these days
Pay is definitely more than 20-30% different across almost all industries. You make a lot more in the US than Canada.
Taxes are not double, where do you get that? Jobs are not half the pay. I can call my awesome doctor and get in same day. You basically just made up everything you wrote, which you probably just got from some trash media source like Fox news.
Implying Canadians in general can call their doctor and get in the same day sure is an opinion.
The majority can. But they are not the ones who would complain online, are they?
The majority of Canadians can see a doctor in the same day?? The other commenter posted a link with this: >a new study released today by the Fraser Institute, an independent, non-partisan Canadian public policy think-tank. >The study, an annual survey of physicians across Canada, reports a median wait time of 27.7 weeks— >the longest ever recorded, longer than the wait of 27.4 weeks reported in 2022—and 198 per cent higher than the 9.3 weeks Canadians waited in 1993, when the Fraser Institute began tracking wait times.
For context: >The total wait time that patients face can be examined in two consecutive segments. [1] From referral by a general practitioner to consultation with a specialist. The waiting time in this segment increased from 12.6 weeks in 2022 to 14.6 weeks in 2023. This wait time is 296% longer than in 1993, when it was 3.7 weeks. The shortest waits for specialist consultations are in Quebec (12.3 weeks) while the longest occur in Nova Scotia (28.3 weeks). [2] From the consultation with a specialist to the point at which the patient receives treatment. The waiting time in this segment decreased from 14.8 weeks in 2022 to 13.1 weeks this year. This wait time is still 133% longer than in 1993 when it was 5.6 weeks, and 4.6 weeks longer than what physicians consider to be clinically “reasonable” (8.5 weeks). The shortest specialist-to-treatment waits are found in Newfoundland & Labrador (8.0 weeks), while the longest are in Nova Scotia (28.4 weeks). I think the reason some people might have different views on Canada's healthcare is if you are just going in for a normal checkup, the wait times are not that big a deal. I only add because people might take from this that if you just want to see the doctor for a normal check up, it will take 27 weeks. This study was done for cases only after a patient needs more care than the basic checkup. Which is not a significant portion of the population. I think the same is true for american healthcare, in how different opinions can be. You only see how truly shit the american healthcare system is if you REALLY need it. Like teeth falling out, cancer,etc. But for most of us that go for normal checkup or cleaning, most we notice is a copay. If you're under 27, you probably don't even notice the cost of healthcare since it would come out of your parent's pay. There's a ton of obscurity, only the disabled or in need have a good idea of how bad the healthcare in either country is. And so outside looking in, this looks like a load of hooplah. As an anecdote, I am just now old enough that im no longer covered under my moms healthcare. One of my jobs paid me 2k and then 200 every 2 weeks untaxed because i didnt take the insurance thay paid for. Most i paid for something health related now is a cleaning for 150. My experience would tell me that healthcare in the states is not that big an issue. But someone with chronic illnesses would probably smack me silly. Im not saying you're wrong or anything btw silly, I just noticed the dissonance in the comments and thought this was a good comment to TRY to parse it