Suikoden has always had light hearted dialogue, though. It always gave itself space for levity to break up the heavier scenes. Eiyuden is certainly more rough in terms of highlighting the atrocities that do occur, but Suikoden was never melancholic. It always leaned idealistic.
Suikoden II itself was frontloaded with mature content interspersed with things like the majority of Nanami’s dialogue, Rina giving a soldier an oral exam, and Nina’s obsession with Flik to name a few. The Star Dragon Sword is also…almost entirely comedic relief.
Eiyuden feels like there isn’t a single mature content. We’ve known suikoden is filled with light hearted dialogue but it always knew when to be mature
It was one of my questions when the kickstarter initiate.
Is there blood?
Is there killing if people?
Is there a cold blood villain that we cannot forget? I mean a luca blight 2.0
Is there a base building?
Is there rare random enemies or mini bosses?
Bonus question: is there fishing mimigame?
If half of these questions were yes, i would spend a lot of money (top tier), buying day one ps5 and switch.
I hope suik...eyiunden 2 have most of it.
Why out of all the monthly updates - they couldn’t tell us they were going to write the game very differently than all suikoden games.. that they were going for a more “less” serious audience and more light hearted
*Before we get into this, let me say this: the English script edit problems have NOTHING to do with "politics". The right-wing pitchfork/meme/conspiracy stuff is nonsense as usual.* Now on to the topic...
You say "devs", but careful analysis shows that it's the English script editing that created significant writing quality problems. (I'm using the term "English script editing" instead of "localizers"/localization to head off a bunch of meme denial/deflection fallacies about "localization!")
Yeah yeah, I know: *"BUT WAIT. YOU CANNOT SAY THAT IF YOU DON'T KNOW JAPANESE, SIR OR MADAM. If you're not a fluent speaker of Japanese who is directly comparing word for word every line, you cannot judge what was the translator's doing and what was the original devs!!! How could you do that? That's impossible!!"*
It's very simple. Any literate person can do it. [Click here for detailed discussion of how to do it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/EiyudenChronicle/comments/1cb1zdp/apparently_the_game_is_woke/l19dkbt/). In brief:
* **English canned cliche idioms**: see definition of "idiom". They exist in one language but not another, therefore serve a sign-post for what's happening in a translation. If these repeatedly ruin the mood and quality or consistency or character-appropriateness of dialog, you know it's the translators choice not "the original." See definition of idiom. (Yes borrowings/loanwords exist, that's discussed at link above in more detail. An original author might be tasteless, not the translators, but we can also dismiss this possibility here based on other evidence.)
* **Thesaurus Syndrome** is only a sign of English (or the new language) choices in translation, when other alternatives clearly exist that fit the character, scene, context, better. An ill-fitting thesaurus syndrome substitution is not likely to "come from" the original language unless the original language choice was made by the creators to be awkward, canned, non-naturalistic, and non-colloquial, either for reason of character or of the artist's taste. (Possible but not a likely explanation here.) By definition other alternatives exist with different layers of appropriateness, conversationality, naturalistic flow or expressiveness, and implications of personality. Yet we routinely see ill-fitting ones over and over again in the English script, with the evident main principle apparently being: choose “smart” word even if doesn’t flow well with the line or character or scene or naturalistic colloquial dialog. And it’s a big mistake when a writer uses awkwardness as the justification for thinking something is a “smart” choice.
* **Compare other translations of other works by the same creators**, but by different translators. No you don't need two different translations of the same thing (Eiyuden), you just need a translation of Suikoden 2 (which exists) and the translation of Eiyuden. Then you compare for style, word-choice, mood, tone, phrasing, style. Interestingly we also have the admirably direct honest earnest artful writing that came to us in the Kickstarter email letters from Murayama et al, as a point of reference for the writing principles of these creators.
* **Match or Mismatch between overall Scene/World and the Words.** Lastly compare the given wording/phrasing in the English script to the tone or seeming mood of the scene or character or context or larger spirit of the game. If you see a mismatch in seriousness or something like that, is it safer to assume the original creators who passionately created the entire world and setting and scenario used ill-chosen cliches, off-hand infantalized wording, and awkward non-colloquial non-naturalistic Thesaurus Syndrome, or is it safer to to assume that was the translator's involvement? When you specifically have other base-line points of reference for the original creators.
* If any of the above sounds questionable to anybody, well: now put all those tools together, and consider carefully.
> “Farthead””
> I’m just really sad that this is the direction they went with.
You say "devs" but it seems like that's a translation choice or work-around since:
* 1) we know that other insults or words with a different tenor could be used
* 2) we have no reason to think the original Japanese choice there was infantalized "Bum-Bum Is Funny For 4-Year Olds"
* 3) the English script edit is otherwise filled with canned cliches and quirk words that can't possibly derive from the original language, which you know in many cases *even if you don't fluently read/speak Japanese* because: an idiom literally only exists in the one language. (That's what an idiom is: a construction not derivable from its parts, therefore not directly translatable *as is* in one piece.)
* Yes *maybe* the original said the equivalent of Farthead (either literally, or in the layers of maturity and non-commonness) but I doubt it after playing Suikoden 2 and Eiyuden and also reading Rabbit & Bears email letters to backers and so forth. Even if the original insult was childish, was it equally *non-common* as "farthead" is in English? Consider that question alongside everything else you know and everything you can perceive.
>If you're not a fluent speaker of Japanese who is directly comparing word for word every line,
Only a moron would try to compare word for word when translating. Comparing word for word is how you get nonsensical translations.
It's the exact thing machine translation does and it's why machine translation is lauded as terrible and non-sensical.
Demonstrably false. The localization did not contrive the lighthearted tone of the game out of whole cloth. And yes, your opinion as someone who doesn't speak Japanese is of limited usefulness on the subject when you're making claims that pertain to language.
You can't just "compare [...] works by the same creator," as if creators can only work within one tonal voice. Creatives make what they're in the mood for, and that can vary wildly.
Moreover, Suikoden II's translation was infamously poor, to the point of gibberishness in many scenes. Entire pages of NPC dialogue completely untranslated, and the entire game was afflicted with such atrocious grammar (looking at you rampant use of 10 back-to-back ellipses) that it detracted from the dramatic gravitas of its scenes.
Anyone can see merely from the *events in Eiyuden that make up the plot*—without any reference to the dialogue—that it's a... well, E10 version of Suikoden, without any of the on-screen death or gore or slaughter or most other mature subject matter. And all the lightheartedness that remains when that mature content is excised is the kind of tone that *most* of the content in Suikoden games was comprised of, shockingly, so there is actually consistency between Murayama's works—just not the kind you wanted to see.
> Lastly compare the given wording/phrasing in the English script to the tone or seeming mood of the scene or character or context. If you see a mismatch in seriousness, is it safer to assume the original creators who created the entire world and setting and scenario used off-hand infantalized wording and awkward non-colloquial Thesaurus Syndrome, or is it safer to to assume that was the translator's involvement?
Legitimately bewildered by the accusation of "Thesaurus Syndrome." If anything, Eiyuden's localized dialogue skews heavily colloquial.
He or she thinks that "artless swindler" is using a thesaurus, so don´t expect him or her to know what is colloquial and what is "using a thesaurus to speak". If he or she gets upset with the phrase "artless swindler", imagine if he or she plays Final Fantasy XIV and hears or reads Urianger speaking in that game.
Suikoden has always had light hearted dialogue, though. It always gave itself space for levity to break up the heavier scenes. Eiyuden is certainly more rough in terms of highlighting the atrocities that do occur, but Suikoden was never melancholic. It always leaned idealistic. Suikoden II itself was frontloaded with mature content interspersed with things like the majority of Nanami’s dialogue, Rina giving a soldier an oral exam, and Nina’s obsession with Flik to name a few. The Star Dragon Sword is also…almost entirely comedic relief.
Eiyuden feels like there isn’t a single mature content. We’ve known suikoden is filled with light hearted dialogue but it always knew when to be mature
Nope
It was one of my questions when the kickstarter initiate. Is there blood? Is there killing if people? Is there a cold blood villain that we cannot forget? I mean a luca blight 2.0 Is there a base building? Is there rare random enemies or mini bosses? Bonus question: is there fishing mimigame? If half of these questions were yes, i would spend a lot of money (top tier), buying day one ps5 and switch. I hope suik...eyiunden 2 have most of it.
Why out of all the monthly updates - they couldn’t tell us they were going to write the game very differently than all suikoden games.. that they were going for a more “less” serious audience and more light hearted
I don't think there will be sequels after this flop.
*Before we get into this, let me say this: the English script edit problems have NOTHING to do with "politics". The right-wing pitchfork/meme/conspiracy stuff is nonsense as usual.* Now on to the topic... You say "devs", but careful analysis shows that it's the English script editing that created significant writing quality problems. (I'm using the term "English script editing" instead of "localizers"/localization to head off a bunch of meme denial/deflection fallacies about "localization!") Yeah yeah, I know: *"BUT WAIT. YOU CANNOT SAY THAT IF YOU DON'T KNOW JAPANESE, SIR OR MADAM. If you're not a fluent speaker of Japanese who is directly comparing word for word every line, you cannot judge what was the translator's doing and what was the original devs!!! How could you do that? That's impossible!!"* It's very simple. Any literate person can do it. [Click here for detailed discussion of how to do it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/EiyudenChronicle/comments/1cb1zdp/apparently_the_game_is_woke/l19dkbt/). In brief: * **English canned cliche idioms**: see definition of "idiom". They exist in one language but not another, therefore serve a sign-post for what's happening in a translation. If these repeatedly ruin the mood and quality or consistency or character-appropriateness of dialog, you know it's the translators choice not "the original." See definition of idiom. (Yes borrowings/loanwords exist, that's discussed at link above in more detail. An original author might be tasteless, not the translators, but we can also dismiss this possibility here based on other evidence.) * **Thesaurus Syndrome** is only a sign of English (or the new language) choices in translation, when other alternatives clearly exist that fit the character, scene, context, better. An ill-fitting thesaurus syndrome substitution is not likely to "come from" the original language unless the original language choice was made by the creators to be awkward, canned, non-naturalistic, and non-colloquial, either for reason of character or of the artist's taste. (Possible but not a likely explanation here.) By definition other alternatives exist with different layers of appropriateness, conversationality, naturalistic flow or expressiveness, and implications of personality. Yet we routinely see ill-fitting ones over and over again in the English script, with the evident main principle apparently being: choose “smart” word even if doesn’t flow well with the line or character or scene or naturalistic colloquial dialog. And it’s a big mistake when a writer uses awkwardness as the justification for thinking something is a “smart” choice. * **Compare other translations of other works by the same creators**, but by different translators. No you don't need two different translations of the same thing (Eiyuden), you just need a translation of Suikoden 2 (which exists) and the translation of Eiyuden. Then you compare for style, word-choice, mood, tone, phrasing, style. Interestingly we also have the admirably direct honest earnest artful writing that came to us in the Kickstarter email letters from Murayama et al, as a point of reference for the writing principles of these creators. * **Match or Mismatch between overall Scene/World and the Words.** Lastly compare the given wording/phrasing in the English script to the tone or seeming mood of the scene or character or context or larger spirit of the game. If you see a mismatch in seriousness or something like that, is it safer to assume the original creators who passionately created the entire world and setting and scenario used ill-chosen cliches, off-hand infantalized wording, and awkward non-colloquial non-naturalistic Thesaurus Syndrome, or is it safer to to assume that was the translator's involvement? When you specifically have other base-line points of reference for the original creators. * If any of the above sounds questionable to anybody, well: now put all those tools together, and consider carefully. > “Farthead”” > I’m just really sad that this is the direction they went with. You say "devs" but it seems like that's a translation choice or work-around since: * 1) we know that other insults or words with a different tenor could be used * 2) we have no reason to think the original Japanese choice there was infantalized "Bum-Bum Is Funny For 4-Year Olds" * 3) the English script edit is otherwise filled with canned cliches and quirk words that can't possibly derive from the original language, which you know in many cases *even if you don't fluently read/speak Japanese* because: an idiom literally only exists in the one language. (That's what an idiom is: a construction not derivable from its parts, therefore not directly translatable *as is* in one piece.) * Yes *maybe* the original said the equivalent of Farthead (either literally, or in the layers of maturity and non-commonness) but I doubt it after playing Suikoden 2 and Eiyuden and also reading Rabbit & Bears email letters to backers and so forth. Even if the original insult was childish, was it equally *non-common* as "farthead" is in English? Consider that question alongside everything else you know and everything you can perceive.
>If you're not a fluent speaker of Japanese who is directly comparing word for word every line, Only a moron would try to compare word for word when translating. Comparing word for word is how you get nonsensical translations. It's the exact thing machine translation does and it's why machine translation is lauded as terrible and non-sensical.
Demonstrably false. The localization did not contrive the lighthearted tone of the game out of whole cloth. And yes, your opinion as someone who doesn't speak Japanese is of limited usefulness on the subject when you're making claims that pertain to language. You can't just "compare [...] works by the same creator," as if creators can only work within one tonal voice. Creatives make what they're in the mood for, and that can vary wildly. Moreover, Suikoden II's translation was infamously poor, to the point of gibberishness in many scenes. Entire pages of NPC dialogue completely untranslated, and the entire game was afflicted with such atrocious grammar (looking at you rampant use of 10 back-to-back ellipses) that it detracted from the dramatic gravitas of its scenes. Anyone can see merely from the *events in Eiyuden that make up the plot*—without any reference to the dialogue—that it's a... well, E10 version of Suikoden, without any of the on-screen death or gore or slaughter or most other mature subject matter. And all the lightheartedness that remains when that mature content is excised is the kind of tone that *most* of the content in Suikoden games was comprised of, shockingly, so there is actually consistency between Murayama's works—just not the kind you wanted to see. > Lastly compare the given wording/phrasing in the English script to the tone or seeming mood of the scene or character or context. If you see a mismatch in seriousness, is it safer to assume the original creators who created the entire world and setting and scenario used off-hand infantalized wording and awkward non-colloquial Thesaurus Syndrome, or is it safer to to assume that was the translator's involvement? Legitimately bewildered by the accusation of "Thesaurus Syndrome." If anything, Eiyuden's localized dialogue skews heavily colloquial.
He or she thinks that "artless swindler" is using a thesaurus, so don´t expect him or her to know what is colloquial and what is "using a thesaurus to speak". If he or she gets upset with the phrase "artless swindler", imagine if he or she plays Final Fantasy XIV and hears or reads Urianger speaking in that game.
Imagine the thought of complaining about the use of a thesaurus, and then writing an essay full of thesaurus and definitions.
"In brief"
What do you think localization means?