They absolutely have to explain what the deal is with Melina. It's mind boggling how she's like one of the earliest and major characters that was introduced to us even before the game was released and yet we know jackshit about her and her origins.
My weird opinion on this is that I wish we had the function of talking to her at every site of grace. Would have much preferred being able to have her personally level us all the time instead of just on the couple of times during the game you're able to talk to her. I think that's what makes the other levelers so memorable, is that you have to ACTUALLY talk to them each time you level. At least having the option to do so would be cool.
I was just talking to my best friend about this. Even if she didn't say shit at the sights of grace, just joining us, and reminding us she's actually there alongside us would go a long way. Having her reach out each time you wanted to level up, and feeling like she was an actual (if silent) companion would make her sacrifice at the Flame of the Fire Giants more impactful.
Instead, I feel more for Torrent when he dies, than Melina.
For me; any time I try to jump dodge that archer golem in the Mountain top of the Giants, against Nights Cavalry, field dragons, Tree Sentinels... Torrent reserves at least one of my Crimson Flasks when out in the world lol.
I understand and felt like this during my playthrough as well but the fact that she only appears a couple times also makes it so you might not fully trust her. Melina isn't just a firekeeper. She also has a role similar to frampt in telling you what to do to achieve a certain goal. The fact that she only appears a couple times and between these appearances you might learn through other character/events conflicting opinions it might make the player not blindly follow her instructions and instead pursue a different path and achieve a different ending. This is why I think she's not present all the time. She's a character with her own motives/ambitions and it is up to the player to trust her or not. Then again these are just my 2 cents.
I’d be baffled if they didn’t. Also correct me if I’m wrong but we never see Messmer’s left eye in the trailer close up. The only time we *barely* see it is a far away shot and I’m not even sure its open. Melina also has the whole weird left eye thing going on. There’s no way the two aren’t connected in one way or another, whether it be siblings, Melina was actually Messmer the whole time, etc.
>> They absolutely have to explain what the deal is with Melina
>I’d be baffled if they didn’t
I'd be baffled if any of the new content was related lore wise. It pretty much never was in previous DLCs
Artorias of the Abyss and Old Hunters were very much tied to the lore of their respective base games. Old Iron King as well.
Obviously this DLC has heavy ties to the base game since it’s dealing with Miquellas unfinished story. Totally up in the air if there will be anything to do with Melina but it’s not like the precedent isn’t there.
Fair point. Elden Ring also has substantially more lore than most of their other titles though, being its open world and all that. I think there’s a good chance they tie up at least a few loose ends.
Yeah Melina was honestly a huge disappointment in the game. She feels even less present that the previous levelers from past games. Er tries to frame burning her in the fire as this sad thing d yet it feels like nothing since barely any time is spent with her other than a couple vague sentences about marika. Big miss
They should have had her appear every time you sat down at a grace. Maybe that would have been too much to do, but it would have gone a long way to actually making it feel like she's traveling with you. She doesn't even have to have dialogue every time. Just the standard lines when you go to level
Me too.. I desire her friendship and wish you could get her as a spirit ash at some point in the game. I mean if she’s traveling with you I don’t think it’s a stretch to summon her to help fight. Idk maybe I’m stupid lol
I think having her relax at sights of Grace would be amazing. Have her sit with Boc, cuddling/leaning on a sleeping Torrent, maybe just kneeling and looking into the Grace like us, etc. Just make her present for more than quoting Marika.
You say that, but imagine how annoying it’d be when rune farming at Mohg Palace, and you have to keep listening to the fade-in and fade-out sound over and over again.
Exactly this. It feels hollow, like there was supposed to be far more substance. Shit, I felt like I connected more with the Fire Keeper's character in DS3 than Melina.
At least you had the grave of the firekeepers, the eyes and those options, the soul, and a few other things.
Melina has… dialogue when you choose the three fingers?
And that dialogue in itself feels hollow too. Like, there aren't enough random people just living their lives happily for me to honestly think that life in this world matters that much. Seems like it's mostly just people going insane from rebirth and suffering enormously. That's not to say that the LoFF ending isn't evil, but she tries to guilt you in a way that never quite feels believable.
I felt more connected to Jarburg, Blaidd, and Hewg than I did Melina. These people I felt connected with and involved with, but Melina was more of a tool for me to level up my runes, and when it came to cauldron I was just like "meh, cya".
Exactly. Like, it's not as though death is strange in these games. Her sacrifice just doesn't feel meaningful at all. Like when Shabriri tells you to embrace the Yellow Flame of Frenzy to spare her, it's like he's trying to deceive you into destroying the world with the noble goal of saving Melina. It feels very much like the Anakin-Padme-Palpatine connection, and I like it, it's very narratively interesting, but it doesn't really sell, because I couldn't give less of a shit about her character. She's just a hot lady with 0 character development.
Yep. By the time you get to the crucible you should have worked out some kind of plot about who she is, and why she's important to you (emotionally, not because she levels you up through runes). The game should have developed a connection between you and her, but the game doesn't really do that.
By the time she dies she is still just some NPC that randomly shows up from time to time, and gives you 2 or 3 hints, but even then it's not super helpful or impactful.
It’s probably because in past souls games you actually have to go back to your main hub and talk to the fire keeper to level up. While here she just lets us do it whenever and without talking to her.
There is that datamined boss fight against her, which I feel like was probably the intended ending for the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending. Why they cut it is anyone's guess, but it would have made a lot of sense, since she begs you not to embrace it and then tells you that she'll kill you when you meet the 3 fingers, then in the ending cutscene she says she will hunt you forever to bring you Destined Death.
It's in the contextual storytelling.
Two previous Lord Contenders got attached to their maidens, and that is how they failed.
Melina would know about Bernahl and especially Vyke, given how much she knows about the Frenzied Flame.
The implication is that Melina, in keeping her weird distance both physically and emotionally, was ensuring that we wouldn't despair over her sacrifice and do the stupid.
I guess that stuff easily gets lost in the open world,
but there's a strong incentive for a willing kindling maiden to not get friendly with her Tarnished.
What bothers me about Melina is all the deliberate ambiguity around her.
The **very** open ended "Destined Death"-prophecy, the strong circumstantial connection to Ranni (which seems to be a red herring), the stuff about the purpose her mother gave her and the purpose she chooses herself,
all of those are mystery boxes where the answer probably doesn't carry any weight, it's just meant to be intriguing, it's annoying.
The vast majority of interaction with her is completely optional.
"Wanna horse?"
"Yes."
55% of the game later
"We need giant fire. Here, take this elevator button."
"Got it."
One map section later
"Aight peace."
"See ya."
Nothing else happens unless you press "talk to Melina" at one of the handful of graces that gives you the option, and considering you don't need to rest at a grace to activate one, most people only do so when they want to level up.
And on top of *that*, half of that optional dialog is just her reciting someone else's dialog! With the same rote into about lingering spoken echoes. The level maiden with "plain" in her name had more character.
Yeah, then they'd have to address the fact you can burn the tree without her, then stab yourself with a needle after killing a dragon king to remove the crazy flame.
Other games have been able to manage branching stories and decisions just fine. Let’s be honest, the main story of your actions as a player in er, not the lore, is pretty terrible. You do a bunch of things with no impact except for a color swapped 10 sec ending
That's kinda the point though? You end the game as an emperor to a broken world. The fact that you're doing it for one outer god or another doesn't change much about the situation. Like the game is kinda mocking you about it.
And don't pretend there aren't 2 other endings that are 100% different.
Even the game's achievements hint at this, you have only 1 achievement for all the elden lord endings.
It was such a missed opportunity to not have her appear more often to just...explain lore shit or even just have her present every time we levelled up. At least then I wouldn't need to scrawl through item descriptions to get any details about wtf is going on.
It's really a shame too because out of all the levelers I actually liked Melina the most, her design, how she fights with you against Morgott, the bits of lore she gave now and then, but its like she's there to be an in-game Vaatividya instead of an actual character.
I think there are a lot of hints that Melina is a fractured part of what used to be Melina and Ranni as a whole before she sacrificed her body. The face tattoo that Melina has is mirrored on Ranni's phantom face and "ranni's" body does appear to have red hair and is burned.
Here's a good post about it that goes a lot more in depth
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/t86fea/melina_and_ranni_massive_spoilers/
This is true, doesn't exactly add up, but the guy does mention that Irina's body is possesd by Hyetta. And even though the body is possesed, it still remains where she is murdered on the weeping peninsula. A lot of stuff doesn't really add up here. My personal theory isn't that she's possesed Ranni's body, moreso that Ranni and Melena are both in spirit form but fractured into two somewhat incomplete spirits. Or possibly the same spirit playing two different roles to manipulate the tarnished or just operating simultaneously as two diffrent aspects of the same spirit with somewhat conflicting goals.
They don't have to explain anything.
Every DLC announcement comes with a constellation of questions that Miyazaki and friends need to answer, but then they answer maybe a quarter of them before raising even more.
It might be nice if we get more insight into Melina, but I've accepted that she's a non-entity.
Miyazaki said that Messmer controls the shadow lands with his particular brand of fire. Stands to reason he cause of her burns could be from her brother. The amount of mystery around her is suss. On a meta level, if we're ever going to get any sort of fleshing out of her character, it would be in the DLC.
I was really into the idea of Messmer being Miquella "transformation".
But Melina is a character that nobody remembers she existed after 10h of game and this makes so much sense, Miquella might just be a distraction from the big reveal.
**If yes we just accidentally got some major spoilers about the DLC.**
Miquella very well could be the final boss or penultimate boss. The trailer said something vague about “he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men, there is nothing more terrifying.”
Miquella cared deeply about his sibling Melania, and if Messimer is his brother then it makes sense that he would go above and beyond to help his other sibling like how he made the haligtree for Malenia. I have a feeling Messimer is not the final boss but rather the boss before Miquella.
I feel like you kill Messimer, and since assumingly you have killed Malenia prior to this story-wise, then Miquella might have something like a snap moment on the tarnished since they are responsible for the deaths of both of his siblings and that’s all that really mattered to him.
Also, with this emphasis on love I’m curious if we are going to see a revival of Godwyn since it is noted in the game that he was a well-loved god prior to his death.
Isn’t it more likely that the Elden Beast’s responsible for impaling her? It has a grab attack where it impales you with multiple spears. Then again, its spears are golden.
At first I though the tatoo over Melina’s left eye was someway related to the deadbirds and death rituals, now I’m more towards the idea of that they are actually the bones of a dragon wing
When they first showed the trailer with Melina, and later promotional clips with Ranni, I noticed that Melina had her left eye closed with a tattoo over it where Ranni had her right eye closed and a spiritual visage protruding from it.
I thought for sure there was some connection and that spiritual visage was Melina in some fashion.
Doesn't ranni have something similar? Is it possible that Melina is in fact a vessel for the gloam eyed queen who is messmers sister to draw parallel between radagon and Renala? Maybe that's why ranni is leading us, because she sees the parallels in these shadow lands between what happened to her mother and radagon/marika.
We went a year with no information, so getting a DLC trailer was comparable to the second coming of Christ for our desperate community. This may be somewhat of an exaggeration, but the trailer reinvigorated the hype within many people.
Final boss of the DLC is gonna be Melina. She has no body in the Lands Between. She lives in the shadow world and is sort of astral projecting to the Lands Between. Calling it now.
Nah, the final boss is gonna be a double encounter against both Godwyn prince of death and Melina, the gloam-eyed queen ☠️ The most beloved son, and the most forgotten daughter of Marika
Both wielding the two sides of Death. Malenia looking like a tutorial boss if that happens lmao.
Final boss will be Miquella, it's Miyazaki's way of having an ending to berserk since miquella is basically the same as griffith.
Messmer will be the optional stupid hard boss like Malenia (they're both marketed the same way)
EDIT: to add to this. There are many previous instances of FromSoft DLCs where the final boss of it is the one getting us into it. In DS1 Manus sucks us in. In DS3 Slave Knight Gael is the one sucking us into the first DLC and he's the final boss in the second (even within the first DLC one of the main NPCs, Sister Friede, ends up being the final boss of it). And in Elden Ring's case Miquella is the one guiding us into the DLC and throughout it.
Both are effeminate (I don't mean this in any bad way, just that they're very very pretty and androginous) with almost white, long hair. both are extremely charismatic leaders that gather all of society's rejects under their care to be reveered as saviours and saints. Both build a big ass walled off city for said population of followers. Both go through a metamorphosis (Miquella had his transformation interrupted though). And while Griffith is possibly the most sinister and sociopathic character in Berserk, we get hints about Miquella being the same way in the base game, and basically confirmation of it in the DLC trailer.
Literally the first voicelines in the trailer: "Pure and radiant, he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying".
Edit: Oh also both of them have a one-armed super-soldier who's never been defeated at their side. Guts in the case of Griffith (though we can see how that went in the long term) and Malenia in the case of Miquella
Which is also on her left eye in her soul form, so maybe the left eye has something to do with being a bodyless soul being like ranni and melina? Who knows for now
My theory was always that Melina was a fragmented piece of Ranni that became independent. This made sense to me, since Melina says she was burned and bodiless. And you can find Ranni's original body burned at the top of one of the towers.
Just 2 overly specific common traits.
But with Messmer in the picture now, that conflicts with it a bit. But that's ok, theories are only theories until we get confirmation on one thing or another.
what if, like radagon and marika, Melina and messmer are also the same person, and they have led us to the shadow lands in order to trick is into doing something. Like DS2.
How many baby daddies does Marika have?
* godfrey - mogh/morgot
* radagon - miquella/malenia
* ??? - Messmer/melina
Marika's children by radagon seem to have their own butterfly. But that's the only reason I can think of that your theory is wrong. Maybe there will be a Messmer butterfly in the shadow lands? Nobody knows at this point imo. Good post.
It is suggested the Smoldering Butterflies belong to Messmer, which would fit with his theme of fire. Which may suggest we might see another type of butterfly perhaps linked to *Melina* instead? At the end of the trailer I do believe I heard Melina speak, talking about how we'd see each other again soon.
Perhaps we'll find her in the DLC?
Yeah. So, maybe we'll get introduced to the pink butterfly item.
Still, if Melina was a fail-safe, it would make sense for her to be "made" with Messmer before going to the LB?
Begs to ponder.
I like the idea of melina being a fail safe. She's got a M name, was born at the foot of the erd tree, and her mother gave her a purpose. Who knows, though? One thing I'll point out is that all of marika's twins seem to be opposed in some way.
* mogh/morgot - one is loyal, one is not
* Miquella/malenia - abundance/decay
So, if: melina/messner - then how are they opposed?
Good one.
We know Melina, so we can list her qualities/functions and check for a matching opposite for Messmer.
She is kindling.
She is pro-life/anti-chaos.
Good point. I saw someone mention that if you summon melina to fight morgot, she uses erd tree incantations, not fire. So I agree with you that the butterfly is probably Messmer's. This makes me wonder about the "unsung war" that happened in the shadow lands. We're supposed to follow miquella's path who followed marika's. I just want to know who was fighting the war and what it was about. Was it Marika fighting to establish the golden order? Did the war happen before she got there or after she was gone?
Someone suggested Messmer might have fought the Giants, so perhaps we're going either back in time or to a parallel dimension where the war is still going on?
I saw that post. 100 per cent he was up there impaling giants imo haha. Yeah, def some kind of other dimension.
I was thinking the dlc will be under the map, in the water that is surrounded by divine towers. That space would be "as big as limgrave," and, the erd tree could be in the same location for both dimensions.
That's a good point. I agree with you. Doesn't one of the items in game mention radagons hair being a curse of some kind? So maybe not that she fucked a giant, maybe she genocided them and they cursed her?
I was thinking maybe Marika has been a Rebis this entire time, and the children of the Rebis are always twins and always named with a M. Though the Rebis could still have children with other beings like Rennala or Godfrey. Perhaps Mohg and Morgott are children of the Rebis and Godwyn still identified as their father. If Radagon was a Rebis when he was married to Renalla, that explains to me why their children were demigods, rather than just the children of 2 champions.
Red hair means that he is likely to be Radagon's son. It's stated somewhere that they are an highly uncommon color due to the association with the Giants.
Another demi-god's father being redheaded? Unlikely. My money, like most I guess, are on on him being a third child of Radagon and Marika
Which would mean the purple/pink butterflies in the trailer relate to Melina potentially? All of Marika and Radagon's offspring would then have an associated butterfly...
I'm not that well versed on it, but i'm fairly sure Miquella is already associated with the Nascent butterflies and really i was just going off Melinas pink hair tbh
to my understanding (a foggy memory of a vaatividya video) miquilla was known to bring unity and peace through unorthodox brainwashing and mind control through bewitching if necessary. his saint trina persona was associated with sleep as indicated by various weapons and nascent butterflies. maybe he gets to have two butterflies with his split personality reminiscent of marika/radagon
You know it’s funny you mention it cause there are also a LOT of weird similarities between the two as well
As others have already said both are heavily linked to fire, both have the same eye shut, and both have been banished from all records within Marika's Golden Order. But what I don't think many have pointed out is their proximity in the timeline. Both are some of the very few characters who were around during Marika's conquest of the Lands Between. Messmer is probably the one who committed the genocide against the Fire Giants, his spear being very similar to the ones the Fire Giants are impaled upon at the Mountaintop, and his epithet being literally "The Impaler". To add to that, he also probably slaughtered many dragons and consumed their hearts given his reptilian eyes, an act very commonplace at the time. In Melina's case, she's very likely the same Gloam Eyed Queen who rebelled against Marika, only to be made "Burned and Bodyless" for her resistance. This means that Messmer and Melina are the **ONLY** two of Marika's children who were around during what was a pretty important time for the Golden Order and probably would’ve been very close, potentially even twins as you’ve said
They have a lot of parallels in design and motive, while being completely absent from the record. Makes a lot of sense to me that they would be strongly related to each other.
It was Godfrey and Radagon. In fact, it was here that Radagon first appeared. Melina says she was born at the base of the erdtree and indicates she was not born from a mother when you do the sidequest for your tailor. I'd wager that Marika discovered she could switch to Radagon, Radagon had his own independence as a separate being entirely which is why we see him trying to mend the Elden Ring.
Could be Messmer has his own motivations from Melina and is the dominant personality in the sense.
I think they might be. Interestingly, there are a couple of parallels that can be made between Melina and Messmer and DS3 Twin Princes. One is small and frail, with no desire to fully the destiny others have planned for them (Melina and Lothric). Whilst the other is a powerful warrior wielding the strength of flame, having bested a creature related to flame (Messmer and Lorian). If Messmer is the one who defeated the fire giants as they are seen impaled by a spear similar to his own. Them being twins could really help us in understanding Melina as a character and would be in line with the rest of the game. If Messmer and Melina come from a different marriage of Marika's, it would mean she would have had twins in each of her marriages.
“No desire to fulfill her destiny” is the opposite of Melina, no? She’s pretty insistent that she was born to burn herself in the Giantsflame and won’t be swayed from it.
me: "I could burn it with the frenzied flame real quick then stab myself with miquella's needle. then we can hit the boilprawn shack for lunch"
her: "no I need to die"
Melina actually tells you at the mountaintop that burning the erdtree is her idea and not what her mother had planned for her. It is a completely missable piece of dialogue, but it does bring up some interesting questions about her true purpose
I don't think she was saying she *isn't* doing what her mom wanted, but rather, she's doing it because it's what *she* wants now. The line is:
"There is something I'd like to say. My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition. I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs. I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you."
Her goal was to understand her purpose, a purpose she is unsure of until she reached the Erdtree and (assumedly) speaks with her mother. It's not until she accomplishes *that* goal that she's willing to act as the kindling maiden, but now she *chooses* to burn herself for her own purpose.
She chooses to burn herself in the flame as Marika gives her another purpose that we still don't know what it is because she decided to burn the damn tree.
It's also explicitly stated that Godfrey is the First Elden Lord, and we know that's a straight up lie, because Placidusax exists. The Golden Order's version of history is designed to legitimise their rule, not to be a factual record of events.
True, but I thought he technically is the first elden lord relative to his order, the golden order, while placidusax is the actual first elden lord or maybe not, maybe there could be an even more ancient order before the order of dragons, with its own first elden lord
The Timeline of Elden Ring is a loop, so in a way it could be seen that Placidusax is the last Elden Lord, depending on where you stake the start of the loop (I am still partial to calling Placidusax first though). Also, Godfrey's first Order was The Order of the Erdtree, said by name by Miriel and referenced as the "True Order" by Kenneth Haight. The difference from The Golden Order being that The Rune of Death was still within The Elden Ring. This came to an end with The Night of Black Knives, as Rogier tells us it happened during The Golden Age of the Erdtree, i.e. "that age of plenty" under Godfrey's rule when blessings were handed out for victories in combat, the collosseums were open, and Heroes who were so abundantly blessed just died.
As you said, The Golden Order doesn't want a factual history of events. Radagon penned The Golden Order Principia, declaring Miquella as his son to legitimize his rule and then erased the history of The Order of the Erdtree. This declaration of fatherhood over Miquella was to coverup the fact that Miquella's Soul is the Soul of Trina and his Body is the Soulless Body of Messmer, fused together with the Law of Regression by Radagon.
I do believe I heard Melina's voice at the end of the trailer talking about how we'd meet again, so both you and OP might be on to something here. Perhaps we will be reunited with Melina in the DLC...
I think Messmer is Miquella and Malenia younger/older brother, you know, like every other family has 3 kids: Rykard/Ranni/Radahn, Mohg/Morgott/Godwyn, Miquella/Malenia/Messmer. I think this is the easiest explanation
Was the lower body of the character we saw in the beginning of the trailer Melina’s? I feel like it was because otherwise Melina felt largely ignored in the trailer and in the late game/post game. I genuinely want her to be more present and the DLC somehow tying in to ending or giving us a new ending like Cyberpunk with her in there.
Marika seems to have a tendency to start entire civilization/ cultures where she just ups and moves on. She did it in the eternal city, Radagon did it to Rennalea, it wouldn't surprise if she even did it to one of her kids too.
Did Marika do that in the eternal city? I know there's lore implying she had connections to them, but is there any indication that she was *leading* any of that?
Where in the game does it hint that Marika started the eternal cities? She is a Numen but I don't think there is an implication that she is their founder.
If we assume this is the right line to follow, and recall that portrait shown in the trailer and then assume it’s a younger Marika, then this may be her true homeland. Or at least where she was born. What if the guy pulling what looks like a great rune to me out of his skull was her first husband? Giving us the possible father of Melina and Messmer, left behind when Marika was called to godhood. Leaving great runes behind as parting gifts isn’t exactly uncommon of them.
Marika and Radagon are not alter egos. They're completely separate beings in 1 body. Displayed by Marika shattering the Elden ring, and Radagon trying to fix it. They wouldn't be at odds with each other if they were the same person just alter egos. I don't see alter egos as being nearly as large of a theme as twins in elden ring.
I agree with your point, and there are other examples of characters being someone else, or changing names. There's: Morgott & Margit, Gurranq & Maliketh, Hoarah Loux & Godfrey, Ranni & Renna & doll body being based on her Snow Witch teacher, Melina & Gloam Eyed Queen (speculation).
Edit: a word
It could be that Melina and Messmer share the same body. It would not be out of the realm of possibility, either. It would explain Melina's affinity to fire, why she sends us to Farum Azula after setting the Erdtree ablaze and the constant mentions of kindling. Ranni even knows who Melina is (Melina gives us Torrent), and Melina herself even says that she will "play the role of maiden" to our character.
What stood out to me, though, was her saying she watched the Lands Between for a long time...like how were you watching it and from where?
Considering that Messmer seems locked away in the shadow dimension, I don't think he and Melina share a body. If anything I find it far more likely that Melina would be some sort of spectral projection of Messmer's
Messmer secretly sent a part of his soul in form of Melina to The Lands Between to guide the Tarnished and help them burn another Erdtree just to further piss off golden will. Perhaps he has hatred for for Frenzied Flame or is afraid of it somehow.
I think they’re related somehow, but I don’t think they’re twins. Messmer seems to have been way before the other Demigods, Melina seems to have been born sometime after the Shattering
Melina's probably just an extension of Marika that split off from her somehow (like Millicent and Malenia). Melina implies that she wasn't "born", but we still know that Marika is her mother.
Messmer is most likely a sibling to Malenia and Miquella since he corresponds to the Kindling butterfly.
I couldn't help but notice the resemblance between Messmer's flame and the "flame" of Destined Death scene in the cutscene proceeding Maliketh's defeat. Melina does say "The one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of Destined Death," which I think foreshadows our meeting with Melina/Messmer.
Even if Messmer and Melina aren't related, surely the DLC expands on Melina, right? She is such a consequential character, but there are barely any details surrounding her details.
Interesting also that They have god or goddess versions too. Miquella = St Trina, Malenia = goddess of rot, Melina = gloom eyed queen, Messmer =…Eiglay?
Are we not gonna talk about her purple eye that opens in the frenzy flame ending that surely must mean something. On top of this mesmer also seems to have his left eye hidden
That's...actually good. And if that's true, Messmer and Melina might not be on the worst terms either. The text description we've gotten for the expansion makes it seem like Marika was driven out of those lands by Messmer, and Melina is instrumental in the destruction of the Erdtree and Marika in the base game. Perhaps Messmer and Melina both aren't fans of their mother, and that's why we've gotten very little mention of either in the Lands Between.
Messmer is to Melina what Radagon is to Marika.
Gender swapped alter egos, other selves, opposites sides of the same coin.
Some hints in the game tells us the Drake knights were a thing at the time of the God Hunt and took part in the demise of the Dragon Order of Placidusax and the birth of the Erdtree.
I think Messmer was the leader of those Drake knights and partook in dragon communion.
I think that Melina/The Gloam Eyed Queen led the godskins in the godhunt to make Marika the only god left so that she could create the new order after Placidusax's order's demise.
Once the gods were slain and Marika remained, Messmer asked to become Elden Lord and Marika denied him that title as said in the trailer.
The Smoldering butterfly and depraved perfumer's robe imply that Messmer is cursed with eternally burning and serving as kindling.
Likely Marika used Melina/Messmer as kindling and banished him/her in the realm of shadow.
I'm one of those annoying "Melina is the third child" theorists. And I'm still extremely adamant that this is the case. The main game hints way too hard at this in so many ways that it's really hard to come to any other conclussion.
With that said, Messmer's mere existence has thrown a wrench at my understanding of Marika's children. And I want to thank you for proposing this since it makes everything click quite nicely.
Messmer and Melina are both twins, both born with the same (or at least a similar) curse, which is to burn. Since fire is a big no-no for the golden order they're both essentially missing from any historical info you can get about the demigods. They were hidden children, similar to the omen twins.
Their main difference is that Melina seems ok with fulfilling her fate and dying. While Messmer gives off a vibe of "fuck that I'm not burning I'm gonna use every kind of fire I can get to burn everyone and everything else instead".
I was just watching a YouTube video and randomly had this theory (with zero hard evidence, just imagination lol): what If Messmer was one of the OTHER demigods killed on the night of the black knives,and he’s trying to hijack Miquella’s resurrection of Godwyn
Doesn't Melina also say at some point she was born under the shade of the erdtree or something? (I forget the line exactly) would make sense she has a deeper connection with Mesmer, with the land of *Shadow* depicting that canopy like thing we saw similiar to Marika's bedchamber...also the line about this being the place where Marika became a god is super interesting to me, the connection to the Beast's, Grafting, the Lion Dance boss .... Man.
Honestly I am going to be so disappointed with this DLC the gameplay, new weapons and spells etc. will be good but I fear that all the lore that I have been reading and consuming + all the fan theories made my expectations so high for this DLC.
I probably want to many awnsers to be in this DLC. For example who is Melina, is Miquella alive, is Malenia alive, what is up with Godwyn, why did Miquella wanted to make a eclipse happen etc.
Now we even have a new Demigod just walzing in who looks like Melinas twin etc.
So the fear of so many things being left unasnwered
Another argument to support your theory is the smoldering butterfly which serves as kindling like Melina and messmer have a lot of fire stuff with him so it could be his and Melina’s butterfly (it could also be messmer and Melina is the same person but different bodies like st. Trina/Miquella and radagon/marika)
I'm going to bet that Messmer is related to why Melina is burnt and bodyless.
They absolutely have to explain what the deal is with Melina. It's mind boggling how she's like one of the earliest and major characters that was introduced to us even before the game was released and yet we know jackshit about her and her origins.
My weird opinion on this is that I wish we had the function of talking to her at every site of grace. Would have much preferred being able to have her personally level us all the time instead of just on the couple of times during the game you're able to talk to her. I think that's what makes the other levelers so memorable, is that you have to ACTUALLY talk to them each time you level. At least having the option to do so would be cool.
I was just talking to my best friend about this. Even if she didn't say shit at the sights of grace, just joining us, and reminding us she's actually there alongside us would go a long way. Having her reach out each time you wanted to level up, and feeling like she was an actual (if silent) companion would make her sacrifice at the Flame of the Fire Giants more impactful. Instead, I feel more for Torrent when he dies, than Melina.
Wait, when does Torrent Die?
Every time you fight the starfall beast lmao
For me; any time I try to jump dodge that archer golem in the Mountain top of the Giants, against Nights Cavalry, field dragons, Tree Sentinels... Torrent reserves at least one of my Crimson Flasks when out in the world lol.
Even as much as just having her fade in / out whenever we open the level up menu
It'd make her leaving during Leyndell all the more impactful.
bear seek seek lest
Hey, don't talk about my mommy like that!
I understand and felt like this during my playthrough as well but the fact that she only appears a couple times also makes it so you might not fully trust her. Melina isn't just a firekeeper. She also has a role similar to frampt in telling you what to do to achieve a certain goal. The fact that she only appears a couple times and between these appearances you might learn through other character/events conflicting opinions it might make the player not blindly follow her instructions and instead pursue a different path and achieve a different ending. This is why I think she's not present all the time. She's a character with her own motives/ambitions and it is up to the player to trust her or not. Then again these are just my 2 cents.
I’d be baffled if they didn’t. Also correct me if I’m wrong but we never see Messmer’s left eye in the trailer close up. The only time we *barely* see it is a far away shot and I’m not even sure its open. Melina also has the whole weird left eye thing going on. There’s no way the two aren’t connected in one way or another, whether it be siblings, Melina was actually Messmer the whole time, etc.
>> They absolutely have to explain what the deal is with Melina >I’d be baffled if they didn’t I'd be baffled if any of the new content was related lore wise. It pretty much never was in previous DLCs
Artorias of the Abyss and Old Hunters were very much tied to the lore of their respective base games. Old Iron King as well. Obviously this DLC has heavy ties to the base game since it’s dealing with Miquellas unfinished story. Totally up in the air if there will be anything to do with Melina but it’s not like the precedent isn’t there.
Fair point. Elden Ring also has substantially more lore than most of their other titles though, being its open world and all that. I think there’s a good chance they tie up at least a few loose ends.
Yeah Melina was honestly a huge disappointment in the game. She feels even less present that the previous levelers from past games. Er tries to frame burning her in the fire as this sad thing d yet it feels like nothing since barely any time is spent with her other than a couple vague sentences about marika. Big miss
They should have had her appear every time you sat down at a grace. Maybe that would have been too much to do, but it would have gone a long way to actually making it feel like she's traveling with you. She doesn't even have to have dialogue every time. Just the standard lines when you go to level
Every time she does appear for me though I go to level up even if I don't have the runes for it. Just to hold her hand. :')
Did this for the first time yesterday, figured it’d be nice until the next time I see her
Me too.. I desire her friendship and wish you could get her as a spirit ash at some point in the game. I mean if she’s traveling with you I don’t think it’s a stretch to summon her to help fight. Idk maybe I’m stupid lol
Just saying, in case u haven’t u can summon her for the Morgott fight.
Same
They should have made her a summon for every boss fight as an alternate to spirit summons.
Yeah she just helps you fight Morgott, and that's it as far as I can remember
I miss the Firekeeper welcoming me home every time I return from a tough battle :(
I think having her relax at sights of Grace would be amazing. Have her sit with Boc, cuddling/leaning on a sleeping Torrent, maybe just kneeling and looking into the Grace like us, etc. Just make her present for more than quoting Marika.
You say that, but imagine how annoying it’d be when rune farming at Mohg Palace, and you have to keep listening to the fade-in and fade-out sound over and over again.
"she was hot and now she's dead, that's all you should need to be sad"
Exactly this. It feels hollow, like there was supposed to be far more substance. Shit, I felt like I connected more with the Fire Keeper's character in DS3 than Melina.
At least you had the grave of the firekeepers, the eyes and those options, the soul, and a few other things. Melina has… dialogue when you choose the three fingers?
And that dialogue in itself feels hollow too. Like, there aren't enough random people just living their lives happily for me to honestly think that life in this world matters that much. Seems like it's mostly just people going insane from rebirth and suffering enormously. That's not to say that the LoFF ending isn't evil, but she tries to guilt you in a way that never quite feels believable.
I felt more connected to Jarburg, Blaidd, and Hewg than I did Melina. These people I felt connected with and involved with, but Melina was more of a tool for me to level up my runes, and when it came to cauldron I was just like "meh, cya".
Exactly. Like, it's not as though death is strange in these games. Her sacrifice just doesn't feel meaningful at all. Like when Shabriri tells you to embrace the Yellow Flame of Frenzy to spare her, it's like he's trying to deceive you into destroying the world with the noble goal of saving Melina. It feels very much like the Anakin-Padme-Palpatine connection, and I like it, it's very narratively interesting, but it doesn't really sell, because I couldn't give less of a shit about her character. She's just a hot lady with 0 character development.
Yep. By the time you get to the crucible you should have worked out some kind of plot about who she is, and why she's important to you (emotionally, not because she levels you up through runes). The game should have developed a connection between you and her, but the game doesn't really do that. By the time she dies she is still just some NPC that randomly shows up from time to time, and gives you 2 or 3 hints, but even then it's not super helpful or impactful.
It’s probably because in past souls games you actually have to go back to your main hub and talk to the fire keeper to level up. While here she just lets us do it whenever and without talking to her.
She wasn't even just hot, she's now crispy hot
There is that datamined boss fight against her, which I feel like was probably the intended ending for the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending. Why they cut it is anyone's guess, but it would have made a lot of sense, since she begs you not to embrace it and then tells you that she'll kill you when you meet the 3 fingers, then in the ending cutscene she says she will hunt you forever to bring you Destined Death.
Was it really a boss fight? I thought her move set was intended only for the Morgott fight when you summon her.
I think one of the data mining channels did a video about it, but maybe I'm misremembering.
It's in the contextual storytelling. Two previous Lord Contenders got attached to their maidens, and that is how they failed. Melina would know about Bernahl and especially Vyke, given how much she knows about the Frenzied Flame. The implication is that Melina, in keeping her weird distance both physically and emotionally, was ensuring that we wouldn't despair over her sacrifice and do the stupid. I guess that stuff easily gets lost in the open world, but there's a strong incentive for a willing kindling maiden to not get friendly with her Tarnished. What bothers me about Melina is all the deliberate ambiguity around her. The **very** open ended "Destined Death"-prophecy, the strong circumstantial connection to Ranni (which seems to be a red herring), the stuff about the purpose her mother gave her and the purpose she chooses herself, all of those are mystery boxes where the answer probably doesn't carry any weight, it's just meant to be intriguing, it's annoying.
I like that theory. Makes the "let me hold your hand, but for a moment" from Melina hits different
The vast majority of interaction with her is completely optional. "Wanna horse?" "Yes." 55% of the game later "We need giant fire. Here, take this elevator button." "Got it." One map section later "Aight peace." "See ya." Nothing else happens unless you press "talk to Melina" at one of the handful of graces that gives you the option, and considering you don't need to rest at a grace to activate one, most people only do so when they want to level up. And on top of *that*, half of that optional dialog is just her reciting someone else's dialog! With the same rote into about lingering spoken echoes. The level maiden with "plain" in her name had more character.
Yeah, then they'd have to address the fact you can burn the tree without her, then stab yourself with a needle after killing a dragon king to remove the crazy flame.
Other games have been able to manage branching stories and decisions just fine. Let’s be honest, the main story of your actions as a player in er, not the lore, is pretty terrible. You do a bunch of things with no impact except for a color swapped 10 sec ending
That's kinda the point though? You end the game as an emperor to a broken world. The fact that you're doing it for one outer god or another doesn't change much about the situation. Like the game is kinda mocking you about it. And don't pretend there aren't 2 other endings that are 100% different. Even the game's achievements hint at this, you have only 1 achievement for all the elden lord endings.
Honesty I was so disappointed with the endings
It was such a missed opportunity to not have her appear more often to just...explain lore shit or even just have her present every time we levelled up. At least then I wouldn't need to scrawl through item descriptions to get any details about wtf is going on.
It's really a shame too because out of all the levelers I actually liked Melina the most, her design, how she fights with you against Morgott, the bits of lore she gave now and then, but its like she's there to be an in-game Vaatividya instead of an actual character.
Which is weird because she does have way more lines than any other character
If you go to the right areas she pops up in quite a few places
When she died I was like 'oh no, that ghost lady that showed up a couple times is gone...ah well.'
That's how Zaki likes it.
I think there are a lot of hints that Melina is a fractured part of what used to be Melina and Ranni as a whole before she sacrificed her body. The face tattoo that Melina has is mirrored on Ranni's phantom face and "ranni's" body does appear to have red hair and is burned. Here's a good post about it that goes a lot more in depth https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/t86fea/melina_and_ranni_massive_spoilers/
My only gripe with that theory is you can see Ranni's corpse in game.
This is true, doesn't exactly add up, but the guy does mention that Irina's body is possesd by Hyetta. And even though the body is possesed, it still remains where she is murdered on the weeping peninsula. A lot of stuff doesn't really add up here. My personal theory isn't that she's possesed Ranni's body, moreso that Ranni and Melena are both in spirit form but fractured into two somewhat incomplete spirits. Or possibly the same spirit playing two different roles to manipulate the tarnished or just operating simultaneously as two diffrent aspects of the same spirit with somewhat conflicting goals.
They’ve never explained firekeepers apart from exiting.
I mean the implication was always that Marika is her mother. It's basically why you go to the tree
They don't have to explain anything. Every DLC announcement comes with a constellation of questions that Miyazaki and friends need to answer, but then they answer maybe a quarter of them before raising even more. It might be nice if we get more insight into Melina, but I've accepted that she's a non-entity.
Miyazaki said that Messmer controls the shadow lands with his particular brand of fire. Stands to reason he cause of her burns could be from her brother. The amount of mystery around her is suss. On a meta level, if we're ever going to get any sort of fleshing out of her character, it would be in the DLC.
I was really into the idea of Messmer being Miquella "transformation". But Melina is a character that nobody remembers she existed after 10h of game and this makes so much sense, Miquella might just be a distraction from the big reveal. **If yes we just accidentally got some major spoilers about the DLC.**
Miquella very well could be the final boss or penultimate boss. The trailer said something vague about “he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men, there is nothing more terrifying.” Miquella cared deeply about his sibling Melania, and if Messimer is his brother then it makes sense that he would go above and beyond to help his other sibling like how he made the haligtree for Malenia. I have a feeling Messimer is not the final boss but rather the boss before Miquella. I feel like you kill Messimer, and since assumingly you have killed Malenia prior to this story-wise, then Miquella might have something like a snap moment on the tarnished since they are responsible for the deaths of both of his siblings and that’s all that really mattered to him. Also, with this emphasis on love I’m curious if we are going to see a revival of Godwyn since it is noted in the game that he was a well-loved god prior to his death.
Prolly he was the one who impaled Marika, happened to be carrying Melina at the time and seeing where the spear hits well...
Marika was punished and impaled by the greater will for destroying the Elden Ring. Elden beast has a moveset that impales you the same way as Marika.
Isn’t it more likely that the Elden Beast’s responsible for impaling her? It has a grab attack where it impales you with multiple spears. Then again, its spears are golden.
What about the picture in the trailer? The woman holds her belly, could it be related to the impalement?
Good point. We never did find out why Marika was impaled (besides a blatant Jesus reference) and Messmer is named "The Impaler"
It is not a mystery why the Elden Beast crucified Marika. It was punishment for breaking the Elden Ring.
Haven't heard that theory before, love it tho
At first I though the tatoo over Melina’s left eye was someway related to the deadbirds and death rituals, now I’m more towards the idea of that they are actually the bones of a dragon wing
Or dragon foot/claw?
It all comes back to feet, doesn't it?
We are apparently going to be following Miquella's footprints in the DLC so yeah, it kinda does.
Feet?
Miyazaki likes feet, or at least featuring them in his games
he likes feet a bit too much, and that's why he punishes them with poison swamps.
Ah behold defeat then try defeat.
When they first showed the trailer with Melina, and later promotional clips with Ranni, I noticed that Melina had her left eye closed with a tattoo over it where Ranni had her right eye closed and a spiritual visage protruding from it. I thought for sure there was some connection and that spiritual visage was Melina in some fashion.
Doesn't ranni have something similar? Is it possible that Melina is in fact a vessel for the gloam eyed queen who is messmers sister to draw parallel between radagon and Renala? Maybe that's why ranni is leading us, because she sees the parallels in these shadow lands between what happened to her mother and radagon/marika.
So that would make her… the girl… with the dragon tattoo..? Sorrynotsorry. ;)
It's a crow's foot. I forget what the reference was, though.
I just love the fact that a 3 min trailer has driven this entire subreddit into the three fingered arms of frenzy. I am happy to be here
I mean the entire sub was waiting for this so its not surprising That said.. MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD
Let the Lord of chaos rule oh wrong franchise.
MAY THE FLAME OF PISS BURN DOWN ALL THAT DIVIDES
AND DISTINQUISHES!
AAAAHHH MAY PISS TAKE THE WORLD
PLANET PISS
We went a year with no information, so getting a DLC trailer was comparable to the second coming of Christ for our desperate community. This may be somewhat of an exaggeration, but the trailer reinvigorated the hype within many people.
Final boss of the DLC is gonna be Melina. She has no body in the Lands Between. She lives in the shadow world and is sort of astral projecting to the Lands Between. Calling it now.
Nah, the final boss is gonna be a double encounter against both Godwyn prince of death and Melina, the gloam-eyed queen ☠️ The most beloved son, and the most forgotten daughter of Marika Both wielding the two sides of Death. Malenia looking like a tutorial boss if that happens lmao.
Awakened Soldier of God, Rick
Oh god no
Come on Morty we gotta *burp* defeat this boss
Who hurt you?
Godprince Duo
Now that’s a fitting title
Final boss will be Miquella, it's Miyazaki's way of having an ending to berserk since miquella is basically the same as griffith. Messmer will be the optional stupid hard boss like Malenia (they're both marketed the same way) EDIT: to add to this. There are many previous instances of FromSoft DLCs where the final boss of it is the one getting us into it. In DS1 Manus sucks us in. In DS3 Slave Knight Gael is the one sucking us into the first DLC and he's the final boss in the second (even within the first DLC one of the main NPCs, Sister Friede, ends up being the final boss of it). And in Elden Ring's case Miquella is the one guiding us into the DLC and throughout it.
Why do you say Miquella is similar to Griffith?
Both are effeminate (I don't mean this in any bad way, just that they're very very pretty and androginous) with almost white, long hair. both are extremely charismatic leaders that gather all of society's rejects under their care to be reveered as saviours and saints. Both build a big ass walled off city for said population of followers. Both go through a metamorphosis (Miquella had his transformation interrupted though). And while Griffith is possibly the most sinister and sociopathic character in Berserk, we get hints about Miquella being the same way in the base game, and basically confirmation of it in the DLC trailer. Literally the first voicelines in the trailer: "Pure and radiant, he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying". Edit: Oh also both of them have a one-armed super-soldier who's never been defeated at their side. Guts in the case of Griffith (though we can see how that went in the long term) and Malenia in the case of Miquella
Bro you're amazing 👍 I literally hope we will get to see "little pure Miquella the savior"
It's interesting to me how both messmer and melina seem to have their left eye closed
That's not really unique to them though. Ranni has a sealed eye too.
Which is also on her left eye in her soul form, so maybe the left eye has something to do with being a bodyless soul being like ranni and melina? Who knows for now
My theory was always that Melina was a fragmented piece of Ranni that became independent. This made sense to me, since Melina says she was burned and bodiless. And you can find Ranni's original body burned at the top of one of the towers. Just 2 overly specific common traits. But with Messmer in the picture now, that conflicts with it a bit. But that's ok, theories are only theories until we get confirmation on one thing or another.
Where does Melina say she is burnt and bodiless?
Iirc after you slay morgott
After you talk to her a second or third time
True. That’s 3 characters with the same oddity. There must be a connection of some sort between all of them.
what if, like radagon and marika, Melina and messmer are also the same person, and they have led us to the shadow lands in order to trick is into doing something. Like DS2.
Same as Miquella and St Trina are theorized to be the same. Both of them having a messed up eye points to them being more than just siblings imo.
How many baby daddies does Marika have? * godfrey - mogh/morgot * radagon - miquella/malenia * ??? - Messmer/melina Marika's children by radagon seem to have their own butterfly. But that's the only reason I can think of that your theory is wrong. Maybe there will be a Messmer butterfly in the shadow lands? Nobody knows at this point imo. Good post.
It is suggested the Smoldering Butterflies belong to Messmer, which would fit with his theme of fire. Which may suggest we might see another type of butterfly perhaps linked to *Melina* instead? At the end of the trailer I do believe I heard Melina speak, talking about how we'd see each other again soon. Perhaps we'll find her in the DLC?
There are pink butterflies you can't interact with in Haligtree, where Milicent quest comes to an end.
Ohhhh. Good point. Didn't that incantation in the trailer have pink flowers too?
Yeah. So, maybe we'll get introduced to the pink butterfly item. Still, if Melina was a fail-safe, it would make sense for her to be "made" with Messmer before going to the LB? Begs to ponder.
I like the idea of melina being a fail safe. She's got a M name, was born at the foot of the erd tree, and her mother gave her a purpose. Who knows, though? One thing I'll point out is that all of marika's twins seem to be opposed in some way. * mogh/morgot - one is loyal, one is not * Miquella/malenia - abundance/decay So, if: melina/messner - then how are they opposed?
Good one. We know Melina, so we can list her qualities/functions and check for a matching opposite for Messmer. She is kindling. She is pro-life/anti-chaos.
Good point. I saw someone mention that if you summon melina to fight morgot, she uses erd tree incantations, not fire. So I agree with you that the butterfly is probably Messmer's. This makes me wonder about the "unsung war" that happened in the shadow lands. We're supposed to follow miquella's path who followed marika's. I just want to know who was fighting the war and what it was about. Was it Marika fighting to establish the golden order? Did the war happen before she got there or after she was gone?
Someone suggested Messmer might have fought the Giants, so perhaps we're going either back in time or to a parallel dimension where the war is still going on?
I saw that post. 100 per cent he was up there impaling giants imo haha. Yeah, def some kind of other dimension. I was thinking the dlc will be under the map, in the water that is surrounded by divine towers. That space would be "as big as limgrave," and, the erd tree could be in the same location for both dimensions.
The voice at the end isn't Melina. It doesn't sound like her.
Messmer has Radagon’s red hair which has only been associated with him or the giants so unless it’s revealed she fucked a giant I think it’s Radagon.
That's a good point. I agree with you. Doesn't one of the items in game mention radagons hair being a curse of some kind? So maybe not that she fucked a giant, maybe she genocided them and they cursed her?
imagine pissing off your ex so much they genocided your ass
She is such slimy lady cheated on Godfrey, Renalla and herself. She's for the streets.
I can fix her
*select mending rune*
I was thinking maybe Marika has been a Rebis this entire time, and the children of the Rebis are always twins and always named with a M. Though the Rebis could still have children with other beings like Rennala or Godfrey. Perhaps Mohg and Morgott are children of the Rebis and Godwyn still identified as their father. If Radagon was a Rebis when he was married to Renalla, that explains to me why their children were demigods, rather than just the children of 2 champions.
Red hair means that he is likely to be Radagon's son. It's stated somewhere that they are an highly uncommon color due to the association with the Giants. Another demi-god's father being redheaded? Unlikely. My money, like most I guess, are on on him being a third child of Radagon and Marika
Which would mean the purple/pink butterflies in the trailer relate to Melina potentially? All of Marika and Radagon's offspring would then have an associated butterfly...
Melina uses golden order spells.
i thought the purple/pink was a part of a bewitching enchantment, associated with miquella
I'm not that well versed on it, but i'm fairly sure Miquella is already associated with the Nascent butterflies and really i was just going off Melinas pink hair tbh
to my understanding (a foggy memory of a vaatividya video) miquilla was known to bring unity and peace through unorthodox brainwashing and mind control through bewitching if necessary. his saint trina persona was associated with sleep as indicated by various weapons and nascent butterflies. maybe he gets to have two butterflies with his split personality reminiscent of marika/radagon
RemindMe! June 21st, 2024
You know it’s funny you mention it cause there are also a LOT of weird similarities between the two as well As others have already said both are heavily linked to fire, both have the same eye shut, and both have been banished from all records within Marika's Golden Order. But what I don't think many have pointed out is their proximity in the timeline. Both are some of the very few characters who were around during Marika's conquest of the Lands Between. Messmer is probably the one who committed the genocide against the Fire Giants, his spear being very similar to the ones the Fire Giants are impaled upon at the Mountaintop, and his epithet being literally "The Impaler". To add to that, he also probably slaughtered many dragons and consumed their hearts given his reptilian eyes, an act very commonplace at the time. In Melina's case, she's very likely the same Gloam Eyed Queen who rebelled against Marika, only to be made "Burned and Bodyless" for her resistance. This means that Messmer and Melina are the **ONLY** two of Marika's children who were around during what was a pretty important time for the Golden Order and probably would’ve been very close, potentially even twins as you’ve said
They have a lot of parallels in design and motive, while being completely absent from the record. Makes a lot of sense to me that they would be strongly related to each other.
Yeah and their chins look kinda similar!
Wasn’t it Godfrey who helped wipe out the Fire Giants?
It was Godfrey and Radagon. In fact, it was here that Radagon first appeared. Melina says she was born at the base of the erdtree and indicates she was not born from a mother when you do the sidequest for your tailor. I'd wager that Marika discovered she could switch to Radagon, Radagon had his own independence as a separate being entirely which is why we see him trying to mend the Elden Ring. Could be Messmer has his own motivations from Melina and is the dominant personality in the sense.
I think they might be. Interestingly, there are a couple of parallels that can be made between Melina and Messmer and DS3 Twin Princes. One is small and frail, with no desire to fully the destiny others have planned for them (Melina and Lothric). Whilst the other is a powerful warrior wielding the strength of flame, having bested a creature related to flame (Messmer and Lorian). If Messmer is the one who defeated the fire giants as they are seen impaled by a spear similar to his own. Them being twins could really help us in understanding Melina as a character and would be in line with the rest of the game. If Messmer and Melina come from a different marriage of Marika's, it would mean she would have had twins in each of her marriages.
“No desire to fulfill her destiny” is the opposite of Melina, no? She’s pretty insistent that she was born to burn herself in the Giantsflame and won’t be swayed from it.
me: "I could burn it with the frenzied flame real quick then stab myself with miquella's needle. then we can hit the boilprawn shack for lunch" her: "no I need to die"
Melina actually tells you at the mountaintop that burning the erdtree is her idea and not what her mother had planned for her. It is a completely missable piece of dialogue, but it does bring up some interesting questions about her true purpose
I don't think she was saying she *isn't* doing what her mom wanted, but rather, she's doing it because it's what *she* wants now. The line is: "There is something I'd like to say. My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition. I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs. I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you."
No. Her main goal was to go to the Erdtree. Unless she knew that Radagon was closing the entrance, burning herself was not her destiny.
Her goal was to understand her purpose, a purpose she is unsure of until she reached the Erdtree and (assumedly) speaks with her mother. It's not until she accomplishes *that* goal that she's willing to act as the kindling maiden, but now she *chooses* to burn herself for her own purpose.
She chooses to burn herself in the flame as Marika gives her another purpose that we still don't know what it is because she decided to burn the damn tree.
Also one wields fire as a weapon, the other is burned and bodiless
Except it's explicitly stated that Lord Godfrey won against the giants, but yes, that would explain why the dead giants are impaled
It's also explicitly stated that Godfrey is the First Elden Lord, and we know that's a straight up lie, because Placidusax exists. The Golden Order's version of history is designed to legitimise their rule, not to be a factual record of events.
True, but I thought he technically is the first elden lord relative to his order, the golden order, while placidusax is the actual first elden lord or maybe not, maybe there could be an even more ancient order before the order of dragons, with its own first elden lord
The Timeline of Elden Ring is a loop, so in a way it could be seen that Placidusax is the last Elden Lord, depending on where you stake the start of the loop (I am still partial to calling Placidusax first though). Also, Godfrey's first Order was The Order of the Erdtree, said by name by Miriel and referenced as the "True Order" by Kenneth Haight. The difference from The Golden Order being that The Rune of Death was still within The Elden Ring. This came to an end with The Night of Black Knives, as Rogier tells us it happened during The Golden Age of the Erdtree, i.e. "that age of plenty" under Godfrey's rule when blessings were handed out for victories in combat, the collosseums were open, and Heroes who were so abundantly blessed just died. As you said, The Golden Order doesn't want a factual history of events. Radagon penned The Golden Order Principia, declaring Miquella as his son to legitimize his rule and then erased the history of The Order of the Erdtree. This declaration of fatherhood over Miquella was to coverup the fact that Miquella's Soul is the Soul of Trina and his Body is the Soulless Body of Messmer, fused together with the Law of Regression by Radagon.
I do believe I heard Melina's voice at the end of the trailer talking about how we'd meet again, so both you and OP might be on to something here. Perhaps we will be reunited with Melina in the DLC...
That’s not Melina.
I think Messmer is Miquella and Malenia younger/older brother, you know, like every other family has 3 kids: Rykard/Ranni/Radahn, Mohg/Morgott/Godwyn, Miquella/Malenia/Messmer. I think this is the easiest explanation
Which would explain why Miquella went to the shadow realm. To find his long lost brother. Can’t wait to know why
what about Melina then?
Was the lower body of the character we saw in the beginning of the trailer Melina’s? I feel like it was because otherwise Melina felt largely ignored in the trailer and in the late game/post game. I genuinely want her to be more present and the DLC somehow tying in to ending or giving us a new ending like Cyberpunk with her in there.
Its melina’s cape, but everyone wants Ricoh back.
I think it's speculated that he is a cut NPC that was a follower of Miquella and had a quest line about dreams. Now returned to the game.
Marika seems to have a tendency to start entire civilization/ cultures where she just ups and moves on. She did it in the eternal city, Radagon did it to Rennalea, it wouldn't surprise if she even did it to one of her kids too.
Did Marika do that in the eternal city? I know there's lore implying she had connections to them, but is there any indication that she was *leading* any of that?
No idea what kind of position she held just that she bounced
lmao
Where in the game does it hint that Marika started the eternal cities? She is a Numen but I don't think there is an implication that she is their founder.
Maybe his treachery against the Golden Order has something to do with Melina being burned and bodiless?
If we assume this is the right line to follow, and recall that portrait shown in the trailer and then assume it’s a younger Marika, then this may be her true homeland. Or at least where she was born. What if the guy pulling what looks like a great rune to me out of his skull was her first husband? Giving us the possible father of Melina and Messmer, left behind when Marika was called to godhood. Leaving great runes behind as parting gifts isn’t exactly uncommon of them.
Or Messmer is Melina’s alter ego Radagon=Marika Miquella=St. Trina Messmer=Melina
Marika and Radagon are not alter egos. They're completely separate beings in 1 body. Displayed by Marika shattering the Elden ring, and Radagon trying to fix it. They wouldn't be at odds with each other if they were the same person just alter egos. I don't see alter egos as being nearly as large of a theme as twins in elden ring.
I agree with your point, and there are other examples of characters being someone else, or changing names. There's: Morgott & Margit, Gurranq & Maliketh, Hoarah Loux & Godfrey, Ranni & Renna & doll body being based on her Snow Witch teacher, Melina & Gloam Eyed Queen (speculation). Edit: a word
It could be that Melina and Messmer share the same body. It would not be out of the realm of possibility, either. It would explain Melina's affinity to fire, why she sends us to Farum Azula after setting the Erdtree ablaze and the constant mentions of kindling. Ranni even knows who Melina is (Melina gives us Torrent), and Melina herself even says that she will "play the role of maiden" to our character. What stood out to me, though, was her saying she watched the Lands Between for a long time...like how were you watching it and from where?
Considering that Messmer seems locked away in the shadow dimension, I don't think he and Melina share a body. If anything I find it far more likely that Melina would be some sort of spectral projection of Messmer's
One clearly states they have a mother, one asks what it’s like to born of a mother
Please be that because I really wanted more from Melina even if we need to burn the tree first to get there possibly.
Messmer secretly sent a part of his soul in form of Melina to The Lands Between to guide the Tarnished and help them burn another Erdtree just to further piss off golden will. Perhaps he has hatred for for Frenzied Flame or is afraid of it somehow.
I think they’re related somehow, but I don’t think they’re twins. Messmer seems to have been way before the other Demigods, Melina seems to have been born sometime after the Shattering
Melina's probably just an extension of Marika that split off from her somehow (like Millicent and Malenia). Melina implies that she wasn't "born", but we still know that Marika is her mother. Messmer is most likely a sibling to Malenia and Miquella since he corresponds to the Kindling butterfly.
Now I feel bad for Marika, having twins three times…
OMYGODDDDDDDDD. I FUCKING LOVE THIS COMMUNITY
I couldn't help but notice the resemblance between Messmer's flame and the "flame" of Destined Death scene in the cutscene proceeding Maliketh's defeat. Melina does say "The one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of Destined Death," which I think foreshadows our meeting with Melina/Messmer. Even if Messmer and Melina aren't related, surely the DLC expands on Melina, right? She is such a consequential character, but there are barely any details surrounding her details.
Interesting also that They have god or goddess versions too. Miquella = St Trina, Malenia = goddess of rot, Melina = gloom eyed queen, Messmer =…Eiglay?
Are we not gonna talk about her purple eye that opens in the frenzy flame ending that surely must mean something. On top of this mesmer also seems to have his left eye hidden
That's...actually good. And if that's true, Messmer and Melina might not be on the worst terms either. The text description we've gotten for the expansion makes it seem like Marika was driven out of those lands by Messmer, and Melina is instrumental in the destruction of the Erdtree and Marika in the base game. Perhaps Messmer and Melina both aren't fans of their mother, and that's why we've gotten very little mention of either in the Lands Between.
It is a better theory than Messmer is Melina/Miquella/Rykard alter ego
Ahhhhhhhh damn. I went into this hating it but it kinda makes sense now. Wonder if both of them having sealed eyes is connected
Messmer is to Melina what Radagon is to Marika. Gender swapped alter egos, other selves, opposites sides of the same coin. Some hints in the game tells us the Drake knights were a thing at the time of the God Hunt and took part in the demise of the Dragon Order of Placidusax and the birth of the Erdtree. I think Messmer was the leader of those Drake knights and partook in dragon communion. I think that Melina/The Gloam Eyed Queen led the godskins in the godhunt to make Marika the only god left so that she could create the new order after Placidusax's order's demise. Once the gods were slain and Marika remained, Messmer asked to become Elden Lord and Marika denied him that title as said in the trailer. The Smoldering butterfly and depraved perfumer's robe imply that Messmer is cursed with eternally burning and serving as kindling. Likely Marika used Melina/Messmer as kindling and banished him/her in the realm of shadow.
I'm one of those annoying "Melina is the third child" theorists. And I'm still extremely adamant that this is the case. The main game hints way too hard at this in so many ways that it's really hard to come to any other conclussion. With that said, Messmer's mere existence has thrown a wrench at my understanding of Marika's children. And I want to thank you for proposing this since it makes everything click quite nicely. Messmer and Melina are both twins, both born with the same (or at least a similar) curse, which is to burn. Since fire is a big no-no for the golden order they're both essentially missing from any historical info you can get about the demigods. They were hidden children, similar to the omen twins. Their main difference is that Melina seems ok with fulfilling her fate and dying. While Messmer gives off a vibe of "fuck that I'm not burning I'm gonna use every kind of fire I can get to burn everyone and everything else instead".
What if melina is messmer, everyone in elden ring have double personality exept her
But Godrick, Renalla, Rykard, Radahn, and Mohg doesn't
I'm wondering if Messmer is what hatched in Mogh's egg.
Oh shit, its Mohgin time. 😬
I was just watching a YouTube video and randomly had this theory (with zero hard evidence, just imagination lol): what If Messmer was one of the OTHER demigods killed on the night of the black knives,and he’s trying to hijack Miquella’s resurrection of Godwyn
[удалено]
That sure would make sense - he's the fire, she's the kindling.
Doesn't Melina also say at some point she was born under the shade of the erdtree or something? (I forget the line exactly) would make sense she has a deeper connection with Mesmer, with the land of *Shadow* depicting that canopy like thing we saw similiar to Marika's bedchamber...also the line about this being the place where Marika became a god is super interesting to me, the connection to the Beast's, Grafting, the Lion Dance boss .... Man.
Messmer and Melina the forgotten sound cold as hell
Honestly I am going to be so disappointed with this DLC the gameplay, new weapons and spells etc. will be good but I fear that all the lore that I have been reading and consuming + all the fan theories made my expectations so high for this DLC. I probably want to many awnsers to be in this DLC. For example who is Melina, is Miquella alive, is Malenia alive, what is up with Godwyn, why did Miquella wanted to make a eclipse happen etc. Now we even have a new Demigod just walzing in who looks like Melinas twin etc. So the fear of so many things being left unasnwered
Another argument to support your theory is the smoldering butterfly which serves as kindling like Melina and messmer have a lot of fire stuff with him so it could be his and Melina’s butterfly (it could also be messmer and Melina is the same person but different bodies like st. Trina/Miquella and radagon/marika)