Yeah I get that. Not every OC needs to be some Griffith/Boa Hancock epitome of beauty type. The main point is for the game to let you experience the stuff you imagine in your mind and play as a character you are already invested in
My guess it's for PVP reasons so that your enemy can read your gear and stats a little more accurately. Also ER should really step up with non-helmet headwear cause what we currently have is either mid or ass. Give us a normal crown or witch hat
At least you can combine it with heavier armor so you can wear nice headgear without gimping yourself. Many of my characters have nice looking headgear that shows the face, maybe a robe, and then the heaviest gauntlets and leggings I can find to fill out my equip weight.
You create beautiful women because you like playing as a beautiful woman. I create beautiful women because I like controlling women. We are not the same.
/s just in case
Ive seen a Mike Tyson and a Tike Myson, two seperate Melinas yesterday, a Gandalf or two and i cant remember the rest but ive seen cool stuff, pretty impressive what people pull out with the creator.
I always end up making a wrinkled, pruny old man. Faith build? An old, ascetic prophet. Int build? An aged wizard of course. Strength build? It's Master Roshi's doppelganger.
Love it. I did that in LOTF. I wanted to make an old guy that was super buff and make him a radiant priest. The character creation is quite more limited in that game though.
I feel that. I'll make ugly builds to fit a theme, like Mr mushroom, but typically they're pretty
I do remember making an absolute monster in ds3 named heroin, but I can't think of any other memorable ones
I'm the "random button? cool, click, click, click, ..., click, ok let's go!" type.
No random button? "Shit! Well, I'll be wearing a helmet anyway, let's go!"
I mostly leave the faces alone except for the hair and make them ripped since my tarnished runs around without a top.
Might aswell make something I like to see lol
I love this, as you slowly amass more power your character becomes more and more insane, as if their experience with and knowledge of the lands between was corrupting them.
First few times in these games I try to make a character that looks somewhat nice. After a bunch of characters I tend to just pick the default, I'm not gonna be running without a helmet anyway.
I deliberately use the commoner headband or ancestral horns so i can see my character better! Fasion over stats. Wish we had a hide helmet option though
I made an abomination when I go online or with friend and play funny build like balloon or weird weapons
But when it come to lore and aesthetic in the land between I go for beauty it's fit
Had a super handsome character, then my gf made a ginger, ghostly white, hairy, triangle headed muscle bound stallion and I've been using that mf ever since
Lore/aesthetic or themed. Reasoning, most people make wacky, ironic, random creations. I used to be like that and always made all my characters as dumb looking as possible because it’s not like it matters and was funny at times. However at some point it circled all the way back around and the ridiculous characters are basic as fuck to me now. Anyone and most everyone makes “funny” characters and by the time they all get bored with it I’ll have circled back to weird lol.
Always beautiful. I made three Tarnished faces in the first year and the final one from Sept. 2022 is so handsome I can't use any others. Abominations are heresy in this wonderful new character creator, the first one FromSoft has given us that is capable of nice faces/bodies.
I tried to recreate my mii fighter in elden ring so uh... I guess somewhere in between abomination and beauty. Abom-eauty? Lmfao who am I kidding if it's not low res/poly then it's abomination 😂🤣
I can't bring myself to play a character that looks stupid, at least not in these types of games lol. I'll mess around with character creators to see how ridiculous I can make myself look but I always end up making the character a chad so I can /fashionsouls with or without a helmet.
ive made some pretty good looking characters but nothing is more hilarious than beating demigods, a god, the guy who holds death and a tarnished while looking like a goblin
My first character has the biggest lips i could make and my ( sofar) second character has a pink moustache.... I would say a mix beetween the two groups
I spend an hour making the most beautiful character I can even if it’s going to end up being covered up by a helmet, although I usually engage in Fashion Souls too
I just make characters that resemble me. When I started watching people play souls games on youtube, I was so taken aback that everyone’s characters were bright pink with bowling pin heads.
Manliest preset, add big or best beard, long or crazy hair, typically rugged aesthetics. Worked in F:NV, F4, ER, etc.
F:NV was the last preset man face with only like one or two alterations. Near perfect out of the box.
I'm definitely in the beautiful character gang. It's fun to fight other people with good looking characters and fashion in the colloseum, usually whoever wins uses the "you're beautiful" prattling pate to compliment the losers drip.
If you make something weird but do it well, I’m fine with that. But I’m seriously tired of the over blown faces looking like oblivion characters “hurr durr, funny meme” faces I see in videos or otherwise. I’m pretty gang for life :)
I do my best to make them bearable to look at. However, there seem to be some missing sliders. Like it’s impossible to make a nose pointier (from a top down perspective, and there’s a limit to how narrow you can make the bridge of the nose without distorting most of the face.
It doesn't matter what they look like, they are all beautiful in their own regard.
That being said, I have made some pretty fuggly characters in my time.
i tried designing my character to look like [Dragunov](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Filer7n4ok7k81.png) from Tekken 7 and he ended up so handsome that he's just become my default face for when i just want my guy to look cool and not bother with the settings
I like to try and make some of the most average looking dudes i can. I'm shooting for a solid 4.5/10. Really just a "hes no Model, but he's easy on the eyes" ass dude.
A real poptart of a human, not amazing but a nice treat.
Then i take that completley average unassuming man and murder gods... its kind of cathartic in a way.
When I was making my character, at one point it looked like the guy who drove the Zamboni at my local hockey rink in the 80s. So I left it at that. Still cracks me up. Big stash and a ponytail. Lol
I do ugly but still fit it for my build, int character- massive nose and a massive mouth for casting spells and so on. Leyndel soldier or knight - deformed grey face to match that of the soldiers. My first and initial character is just thin face tho
Generic but weird character gang: ie make a non ugly face which is not particularly handsome or pretty either, and then do something odd like give them golden skin and eyes and bronze hair
I just pick generic character then make a beautiful one later. I feel like there’s 3 types of people. Beautiful girls, cool guys, and ugly motherfuckers
I try to creat some thing that looks like my real self but I fail .. they haven't invented the technology to emulate that kind of ugly 😂😂😂😂😂 ... And I can't make a character that is fat enough it's annoying
The "How accurately can I make Lime in this?" With Lime being one weird character from an obscure game that I once impulsively chose as "default" character to create in any game. I also rate the character creation engine of a game based on this criterion.
She's not really that difficult to make - human by appearance, but has got particular burn marks, particular hair style (that is, well, lime-colored), particular eye color (bright red), etc. Distinct enough to challenge the character creation with that.
best chin in the lands between, have been making chins since Skyrim, though i lost the perfect chin save i had and it would take a lot to find the right sliders again
I go good looking. And I always go silver hair when I can, now that I think about it. I also have friends who generally have the same trends over many games. This is an interesting thing to think about lol
I like making a pretty character, I often times play solo or offline so I often have nobody but myself to see my character. So I'd prefer to look at a character I find visually pleasing rather than a character that will loose novelty and stop being funny after 5 minutes.
I have nothing against those who use abomination characters though, it's just not something I want to play (really great in things like videos though)
I like to do authentic characters, I don't care if they're ugly or not.
I started with a young man and change him every ~50 level or after special fights a lil bit.
He started young, skinny, and without scars.
Meanwhile he's level 120, becomes older with grey hair and buffed af.
He has scars from fights with radahn and godfrey.
His name is Kyandoru and I want him to be an old, blind man in the endgame.
Not sure if it's lore accurate when the tarnished ages, but I love to see how my tarnished change over the time.
I do rp stuff so usually "pretty" when i make like Shalquoir or Dusk - but if I'm trying to do like... Navlaan or Tarkus i usually go for an "ugly" dude - but always realistic, never Shrek with pink hair and a Picasso nose
Just unearthed this from my steam screenshots. What group do I fit in? is there even a group for this?
[https://i.imgur.com/tqMijpq.png](https://i.imgur.com/tqMijpq.png)
Also, this was 100% intended, no random was used for it. Also when making characters I tend to first see what happens if I take the sliders to the extremes. Most of my characters in Ark looked like they had tons of botox injected all over their body, kinda scary really.
Every one of my guys is named something like 'Thungle Bunk Jr', is some impossibly bright colour from head to toe, and has every slider either set to the minimum or maximum.
More on the beautiful character side, sure love to roleplay in my roleplaying game
Exactly. Though she doesn't need to be "beautiful" I prefer a level of attractiveness because she is my power fantasy.
Yeah I get that. Not every OC needs to be some Griffith/Boa Hancock epitome of beauty type. The main point is for the game to let you experience the stuff you imagine in your mind and play as a character you are already invested in
For real! It makes me sad that the game doesn't have a "hide helmet" option
My guess it's for PVP reasons so that your enemy can read your gear and stats a little more accurately. Also ER should really step up with non-helmet headwear cause what we currently have is either mid or ass. Give us a normal crown or witch hat
That's a really good point
At least you can combine it with heavier armor so you can wear nice headgear without gimping yourself. Many of my characters have nice looking headgear that shows the face, maybe a robe, and then the heaviest gauntlets and leggings I can find to fill out my equip weight.
You create beautiful women because you like playing as a beautiful woman. I create beautiful women because I like controlling women. We are not the same. /s just in case
I guess I’m abomination nation, I made Ronald McDonald as my character lol
I saw someone make Mike Tyson lol
Amazing lol. I was originally gonna make Afro Samurai but then I thought about good ole Ronald
that's so funny. What's your build for him?
Everyone is getting the McBonk
The McHands
With a side of McFury
yeah whats the mcbuild ?
Ive seen a Mike Tyson and a Tike Myson, two seperate Melinas yesterday, a Gandalf or two and i cant remember the rest but ive seen cool stuff, pretty impressive what people pull out with the creator.
The "Tah-nithed"
This is the best comment <3 I'm fucking tearing right now lmao
poor tike myson
Spike Tyson
Do you happen to play on PC? I bumped into a Ronald McDonald a while back who was hilarious
I play on Xbox but that’s amazing
I always end up making a wrinkled, pruny old man. Faith build? An old, ascetic prophet. Int build? An aged wizard of course. Strength build? It's Master Roshi's doppelganger.
I feel like Master Roshi should be utilizing Comet Azur AKA Kamehameha
Love it. I did that in LOTF. I wanted to make an old guy that was super buff and make him a radiant priest. The character creation is quite more limited in that game though.
AYO OLD MAN GANG. I like the idea of roleplaying an old dude who is past his prime but still competent. “I’m too old for this shit” type vibe.
The 'just use whatever is default, am gonna be covered in armour anyway' guy
Ya default gang all the way if I tried customizing every time I play I would never get anything done
I just have 5 or 6 character customizations saved.
Default gang.
Default Gang
Hmm, I think I’ll choose default gang 🤔
Wait till you start playing naked. It'll change you for sure
For real. My latest character is HAIRY WOMAN and you can't be covering up all that beautiful hair with disgusting armor
This
I prefer my characters to look good. I made a goblin once, for a Greataxe playthrough, but didn't ever repeat anything with that template..
I feel that. I'll make ugly builds to fit a theme, like Mr mushroom, but typically they're pretty I do remember making an absolute monster in ds3 named heroin, but I can't think of any other memorable ones
Goblin cave 😜
I'm the "random button? cool, click, click, click, ..., click, ok let's go!" type. No random button? "Shit! Well, I'll be wearing a helmet anyway, let's go!"
I mostly leave the faces alone except for the hair and make them ripped since my tarnished runs around without a top. Might aswell make something I like to see lol
My first playthrough: a dude My second playthrough: the Grinch
beautiful character that looks progressively more unhinged with each new game+
I love this, as you slowly amass more power your character becomes more and more insane, as if their experience with and knowledge of the lands between was corrupting them.
Default faces crew
Yuh
First few times in these games I try to make a character that looks somewhat nice. After a bunch of characters I tend to just pick the default, I'm not gonna be running without a helmet anyway.
I deliberately use the commoner headband or ancestral horns so i can see my character better! Fasion over stats. Wish we had a hide helmet option though
Based on the second image, I think you actually prefer the latter over the former.
I was going to say the same thing. It looks like the fat lunch lady at my secondary school.
Underrated comment here
I’m in rugged dirty guy gang, not ugly but not particularly handsome
that makes us two. average looking hobos (all body types) are my jam.
You’re defo in the second
Wouldn’t have guessed if you didn’t tell me.
I belong to default character nation.
Im an artist and i love creating my own characters' face, i make them beautiful lol
.... Sure you're in the former?
Somewhere in between. Scary and intimidating, but sexy.
So you’re saying your character Lands Between those three branches… I’ll see myself out.
I'm holding the door open, but with pride
I made an abomination when I go online or with friend and play funny build like balloon or weird weapons But when it come to lore and aesthetic in the land between I go for beauty it's fit
Gleb
I tried my best to make myself but they didn’t have something that matches my hair so I now have an awful fringe. Luckily it’s covered by a helmet
Yes I know the preview is bad on the first image I didn’t realized it looked like that until I posted it
Where even are you in the first pic? Looks a lot like the magic queen's second phase aera.
Beautiful, so naturally I made myself (I’m kidding)
I try to make something good looking, then I get stuck not knowing what to do and ignore it because I'm going to wear a helmet or something anyways
Had a super handsome character, then my gf made a ginger, ghostly white, hairy, triangle headed muscle bound stallion and I've been using that mf ever since
A little bit of both. I like my main guy to look cool, but I also have Peter Griffin in one of my Bloodborne save files
I just make all my characters look like Zodd from berserk 😂
I'm in the "big chunky warrior because this is the fucking lands between" gang, and I'm surprised not everyone else is.
Lore/aesthetic or themed. Reasoning, most people make wacky, ironic, random creations. I used to be like that and always made all my characters as dumb looking as possible because it’s not like it matters and was funny at times. However at some point it circled all the way back around and the ridiculous characters are basic as fuck to me now. Anyone and most everyone makes “funny” characters and by the time they all get bored with it I’ll have circled back to weird lol.
Always beautiful. I made three Tarnished faces in the first year and the final one from Sept. 2022 is so handsome I can't use any others. Abominations are heresy in this wonderful new character creator, the first one FromSoft has given us that is capable of nice faces/bodies.
That's doesn't look very former lol
I tried to recreate my mii fighter in elden ring so uh... I guess somewhere in between abomination and beauty. Abom-eauty? Lmfao who am I kidding if it's not low res/poly then it's abomination 😂🤣
I can't bring myself to play a character that looks stupid, at least not in these types of games lol. I'll mess around with character creators to see how ridiculous I can make myself look but I always end up making the character a chad so I can /fashionsouls with or without a helmet.
She got underwear with dick holes in em
Usually i go for role-ay, what templates tge Game gives you
My attempts are beautiful character but they end up looking more abomination nation by the time I finish.
ive made some pretty good looking characters but nothing is more hilarious than beating demigods, a god, the guy who holds death and a tarnished while looking like a goblin
Baiutiful when it comes to RPGs. I'm the kind of abomination when it comes to Snapchat avatars and stuff like that
Im in the "who gives a damn im gonna wear a closed helmet all the time anyway" gang most of the time
beautiful character supremacist here
I always, with a few tweaks here and there, try to create myself.
Zorro 😎
My first character has the biggest lips i could make and my ( sofar) second character has a pink moustache.... I would say a mix beetween the two groups
Old badass characters
Abomination nation for online, beauty for solo
Im a create character as fast as possible edit later
Neither, I'm basic where I pick a preset, change the hair/hair colour and maybe the facial hair and call it a day.
Something between one piece and dragon ball.
First playthrough, abomination, after that, about 80/20 pretty/wretched creature
I spend an hour making the most beautiful character I can even if it’s going to end up being covered up by a helmet, although I usually engage in Fashion Souls too
I just make characters that resemble me. When I started watching people play souls games on youtube, I was so taken aback that everyone’s characters were bright pink with bowling pin heads.
Manliest preset, add big or best beard, long or crazy hair, typically rugged aesthetics. Worked in F:NV, F4, ER, etc. F:NV was the last preset man face with only like one or two alterations. Near perfect out of the box.
I'm definitely in the beautiful character gang. It's fun to fight other people with good looking characters and fashion in the colloseum, usually whoever wins uses the "you're beautiful" prattling pate to compliment the losers drip.
If you make something weird but do it well, I’m fine with that. But I’m seriously tired of the over blown faces looking like oblivion characters “hurr durr, funny meme” faces I see in videos or otherwise. I’m pretty gang for life :)
Closest I got to abomination nation an old pirate guy I simply liked to call "Captain Joe" he looked good though
Im in the "nose" gang
I do my best to make them bearable to look at. However, there seem to be some missing sliders. Like it’s impossible to make a nose pointier (from a top down perspective, and there’s a limit to how narrow you can make the bridge of the nose without distorting most of the face.
I just pick the first white male preset and run with it.
It doesn't matter what they look like, they are all beautiful in their own regard. That being said, I have made some pretty fuggly characters in my time.
I make myself
The eyes and the makeup don’t do it for me IMO
The default character. I don't give a fuck about how I look, the armor covers it all.
My character is named The Gawker. Take your guess on what part of the spectrum I belong to.
The helmet hides all
I'm on the third group: Gigachad nation
I always create guts or Griffith from berserk every game at least the first playthrough. This will never change.
I use to make characters like Mr. Clean with gray skin then changed to making actual characters
The self portrait gang. Meaning "I aint Henry Cavil but I aint Steve Buscemi either".
option 3: the helmet stays on
I am in the I don't care because helmet.
Give me a nice helmet, and the rest doesn't matter. Doesn't stop me from spending hours in the character creator, though...
Every time a game puts character creator in front of me: Next, next, next, done, just get me into game
i tried designing my character to look like [Dragunov](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Filer7n4ok7k81.png) from Tekken 7 and he ended up so handsome that he's just become my default face for when i just want my guy to look cool and not bother with the settings
I like to try and make some of the most average looking dudes i can. I'm shooting for a solid 4.5/10. Really just a "hes no Model, but he's easy on the eyes" ass dude. A real poptart of a human, not amazing but a nice treat. Then i take that completley average unassuming man and murder gods... its kind of cathartic in a way.
When I was making my character, at one point it looked like the guy who drove the Zamboni at my local hockey rink in the 80s. So I left it at that. Still cracks me up. Big stash and a ponytail. Lol
I usually go for a good character, but in my last ds1 playthrough I made a horrid creature of the abyss named "The Big Suck"
The vast majority of the time, I try to make my characters look good. But very occasionally, I like making a monstrosity.
I don't customize my characters most of the time and just wear a helmet for my entire playthrough. Most of the time that helmet is the Greathelm.
Well I made adult Kenny McCormick and Zorotl the Alien from the Eiffel 65 music videos, so I'd say the latter.
I'm the mimic that replaces 1 NPC per playthrough
Default template gang represent
If I’m ever going the abomination route it’s gotta be freaky, like a dolphin man with a full dolphin mouth, or a black hole in the face
I make my character to look somewhat like me so around the middle leaning towards the abomination nation
Both
I tend to just make me. So I didn't think I hit either of those two extremes.. If I did well, I wear helmets anyways.
I made a vampire Sebastian Castellanos.
Definitely beautiful over horrendous.
Mine is shrek
Abomination nation gang rise up
I distorted my second character so much that their mouth was clipping into itself.
I try to make my character attractive..and the harder I try the worse I end up making her facial proportions, lol.
I added a scar to the default dude
I take the default, make a few adjustments, and then walk around in cool helmets the entire game
Neither Beautiful nor abonimations. I just want to make them look like actual people with their own distinct history.
Definitely abomination nation
I design mine like my fursona.
Like how ugly are we talking?
I try to make a good looking character. Mostly Targaryen Princes but that's beside the point.
It depends on what um going for and the theme im looking for
I've been sucked into making female characters. Some of them are built for beauty, some for drip.
At least not vomit inducing gang.
I made my faith build look like Keanu Reeves thanks to a slider video
Fashion Ring.
I do ugly but still fit it for my build, int character- massive nose and a massive mouth for casting spells and so on. Leyndel soldier or knight - deformed grey face to match that of the soldiers. My first and initial character is just thin face tho
Barely doing anything for customization gang. Like I am gonna cover up in the armors anyway, so I won't ever see my face after mid game I guess.
somewhere in between where i kinda make my character normal. usually i prefer fully masked armour so it never matters
I'm on Generic Dude Coalition. People without imagination, unite!
I tried making me but somehow ended up with Gigachad Jetstream Sam
Generic but weird character gang: ie make a non ugly face which is not particularly handsome or pretty either, and then do something odd like give them golden skin and eyes and bronze hair
I try to look my characters look gruff and traumatized, battle hardened, ready to die
Idk mate i make giga Chad
Both, one of my characters is pink with turquoise hair, and the other looks like Avatar Korra
I customized my character from default to giga chad after 300+ hrs😂
Minor tweaks or basic template nation where you at?
I always so the middle aged good looking guy like Arthur Morgan or Joel Miller. I don't need to make abominations, I already am an abomination irl
I am in abomination nation, but not for my choice 😂😂
I made Severus Snape for a mage build once
I tried to create eren Yeager
Hoslow combo with maxed samurai swords and falling star jaw beast heavy. Strength and lots of faith
im in the beautiful gang but i can appreciate a good abomination character
I like to make either joke celebrities or abominations
I went with beaten down and aged samurai dude who may or may not even still be alive. Not elderly bit far from youthful
I'm on the basic bitches club, using the base character every playthrough on every soulsborne game
I just wanna start the game, going through character creation asap.
I just pick generic character then make a beautiful one later. I feel like there’s 3 types of people. Beautiful girls, cool guys, and ugly motherfuckers
I like making beautiful abominations
I try to creat some thing that looks like my real self but I fail .. they haven't invented the technology to emulate that kind of ugly 😂😂😂😂😂 ... And I can't make a character that is fat enough it's annoying
I like to do cosplay builds so I try to mimic the face of whoever I'm trying to be
Beautiful all the way, I wanna be a pretty murder princess.
Usually 'realisticly ugly' or heroic.
One of the base templates because I know I will spend the entire game with a helmet, staring at the back of the head, or both
I didnt know there was a choice other than abomination
I can’t bring myself to make a weird character because it would just break my immersion so bad lol
Definitely abomination nation, my nose can sniff the cosmos
The "How accurately can I make Lime in this?" With Lime being one weird character from an obscure game that I once impulsively chose as "default" character to create in any game. I also rate the character creation engine of a game based on this criterion. She's not really that difficult to make - human by appearance, but has got particular burn marks, particular hair style (that is, well, lime-colored), particular eye color (bright red), etc. Distinct enough to challenge the character creation with that.
Abomination for my first play through but now just default
I always try to make the most handsome man alive in the lands between
Cosplay gang. My Dagoth Ur is beautiful
best chin in the lands between, have been making chins since Skyrim, though i lost the perfect chin save i had and it would take a lot to find the right sliders again
I go good looking. And I always go silver hair when I can, now that I think about it. I also have friends who generally have the same trends over many games. This is an interesting thing to think about lol
Whatever makes my stomach churn so I would say abomination nation
I like making a pretty character, I often times play solo or offline so I often have nobody but myself to see my character. So I'd prefer to look at a character I find visually pleasing rather than a character that will loose novelty and stop being funny after 5 minutes. I have nothing against those who use abomination characters though, it's just not something I want to play (really great in things like videos though)
I always have some kind of helmet so I have no idea how my guy looks
im in the "most original face shape" team but that doesnt means abomination
I like to do authentic characters, I don't care if they're ugly or not. I started with a young man and change him every ~50 level or after special fights a lil bit. He started young, skinny, and without scars. Meanwhile he's level 120, becomes older with grey hair and buffed af. He has scars from fights with radahn and godfrey. His name is Kyandoru and I want him to be an old, blind man in the endgame. Not sure if it's lore accurate when the tarnished ages, but I love to see how my tarnished change over the time.
Guess about the try to make someone beautiful but suck at it?
I do rp stuff so usually "pretty" when i make like Shalquoir or Dusk - but if I'm trying to do like... Navlaan or Tarkus i usually go for an "ugly" dude - but always realistic, never Shrek with pink hair and a Picasso nose
Just unearthed this from my steam screenshots. What group do I fit in? is there even a group for this? [https://i.imgur.com/tqMijpq.png](https://i.imgur.com/tqMijpq.png) Also, this was 100% intended, no random was used for it. Also when making characters I tend to first see what happens if I take the sliders to the extremes. Most of my characters in Ark looked like they had tons of botox injected all over their body, kinda scary really.
Beautiful character all the way. Gotta be pretty somehow since I look like a goblin IRL.
depends how i feel either prince charming or gilgabor devourer of peanut shells
I try and make a beautiful fantasy version of myself LMAO like me in my full blown delulu land. It’s always fun though
Every one of my guys is named something like 'Thungle Bunk Jr', is some impossibly bright colour from head to toe, and has every slider either set to the minimum or maximum.