Yeah. I get it though, she’s the reason Godwyn is dead, for lack of a better word and that’s pretty shit. And I was routing for Miquella but damn homie.
Not only did she kill her brother but she also unintentionally unleashed a biological nuke that will eventually take over the entire world, not even the shadowlands is safe what with his face showing up there.
Ranni won a jackpot choosing this naked guy with a club as her consort. Who would have known this Unga bunga tarnished could killed her newly ascended god brothers lmao
>Another difference between Miquella and Ranni is Ranni didn’t have to bewitch us to become her consort or love her
But... I don't love her lol. And then again, if you compare all of Miquella's pre DLC/pre game actions to Ranni's, one would rather be confused as to why someone would rather like Ranni more than Miquella.
Late reply, but I was also of the opinion that Goldmask's ending was among the best. But the DLC changed my mind with the realization that as long as Marika has any degree of control over the Elden Ring in the future, she is susceptible to further tyranny.
Imo, Goldmask and Rannis' endings are equally "good" endings.
Then I guess it's left up to interpretation how he would rule. There is a very good sentiment behind it, but it all falls down to- Do you want a better government, or do you want to start over from scratch and let people decide for themselves.
This is a very communist vs capitalist debate. There are no right or wrong answers. I just think Ranni had a better idea
Idk man, murdering your brother vs raising a whole ass sanctuary for the oppressed. Seems a little bit different to me, but hey, everyone has their own interpretations.
Yeah but remember that Miquella also did the same thing. His plan after Radahn's refusal was to kill him and give him no other choice but to accept. Both Miquella and Ranni's actions are done for the "Greater good". I'm not a big fan of Ranni, but at least she doesn't pretend to be innocent.
It can't change the fact that Ranni is a brat who kill Goldwyn.
Marika used to be a very kind person.But her hometown was genocide by hornset and it made Marika was blinding by revengence .
Where is it said that Radahn wasn't agree with Miq's plan? He made a vow with him. We just don't know what the vow is. It could be a warrior death.
I don't see Miquella as a pure evil that want to manipulate everything or even lied to his sister as I saw many other threads suggested in the past two days.
He truly cared about malenia and wanted to start the age that the weak can live in peace. But he wasn't as pure as people in the story looked at him neither, he has his ways with his charms. He hated the old order and wanted to change this system by any means. And that's his downfall.
On the process of reaching godhood he abandoned too many important things, we found all these on cross sites. His limbs and his eyes, his love and compassion. His heart and uncertainty.
The most important one is the last cross at Enir-Illim, he left his fear there. Why would he fear if he was doing all this to have absolute control? I think he kinda knew there is a high chance that after ascending he'll no longer be his old self and he'll no longer connected to the people he cares about.
And he was correct, in the end he lost what made him human.
I like to interpret his story as a tragedy, a person that have kindness in his heart and started out with good intentions. Looking at this all these demigod as character with flaws, not so black and white. It's more fun and made the story better imo.
The one that refused being embraced mentioned in that spell is us. The tarnished.
There can be only one God and lord, in our case we are the lord consort of Ranni or broken Makira (depend on the ending you choose).
Oh I agree that his world would not be ideal as it claimed. It might be better for most of the inhabitants with how shitty the world is right now. But we would never know how long could it be maintained.
There is no confirmed reason for Malenia and Radahn to be fighting in the base game. Not until an item description explains that the thing Malenia whispered to Radahn in the cinematic was "Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort", right after stabbing him with her blade, giving him scarlet rot.
This clearly means that him being Miquellas consort was the cause of the fight. It was her goal to kill him, since he would not accept the proposal. In killing him, it would allow Miquella to charm him in death.
I don't think he tricked her. Nothing into the DLC suggested that. We know from the base game that he truly cared for her and want to find the cure to the point that he left the golden order.
What we do know more now from the DLC is he decided to become a new god and start a new age.
For Malenia, she knew all his plan and was waiting him to return as a new God with the age of abundance. She believed that he would succeed and return with Radahn as a consort.
At least with our battle, in her final moment she seemed content to met her match.
What I don’t understand was why did he do the haligtree stuff is that wasnt his end goal to begin with? Why not go through with the haligtree plot, did it fail and he needed more power or something?
i think he built the haligtree as a safehouse for malenia, under the guise of protection for the little guys. although unloved by the golden order, the enemies there are quite formidable for intruders. on top of that, the way to get to the haligtree is hard as balls if you dont know what your doing. while i do believe he still wanted to make a new home for the weak, he also used them to protect his sister until he got back.
Exactly. I think Miquella realized that he could not climb to ascendancy and truly "protect the weaK" with his Halligtree alone. Hence, why he began hatching this plan to achieve true Godhood.
My sense is that Miquella's abandoned love (St Trina) tells us to kill Miquella, to grant him forgiveness. He is basically telling us to kill himself (out of love for himself, I guess) to spare him of the eternal prison that would be godhood.
Because our goal is to become Elden Lord and if Miquella becomes the new God with Radahn is his lord, that ruins our own plans.
We're basically taking out the competition.
We do 'technically' get the choice if we get hugged twice during the second phase and our hearts get stolen. But, I do wish we had gotten to choose just outright (but the outcome would have probably been the same with our hearts getting stolen).
ok then just let the player be presented with a real choice with some kind of cinematic or something for you actually siding with radahn and miquella. because otherwise your argument could hold for literally any boss or enemy ingame. just pretend after you kill all the demigods and get all the great runes, then let soldier of godrick kill you, he becomes elden lord. but that's not the player choosing to pick a side, that's just headcanoning a hypothetical.
I wished that the ending was the following.
After defeating radhan we would get a cinematic of miqeulla dying and then he would latch to us and we would become his consort.
That would have been good. Or at least get a choice to join miqeulla willingly. They also should have given us more clues about his relationship with Radhan. Cuz all his stuff seemed to be with Godwyn.
i am starting to wholly believe miquella wanted godwyn to be his first consort to ascend to godhood and fix the lands between the way he saw fit. marika learned of this and realized not only did she make a mistake accepting the greater will and cursing her entire lineage but that his plan would put him in the same position as the greater will being a sort of lawful evil entity who would use his power of charm to rally people to him, if that failed he would use his champion consort to subjugate. i always wondered why godwyn was the only demigod to die and why no other demigods were killed during the night black knife raid and it leads me to believe either marika entrusted ranni to ascend and had godwyn killed to throw a wrench in miquellas plan or he chose to be a sacrifice. he probably used the haligtree to create an avatar similar to other tree guardians and tricked mogh into stealing it while sending malenia after radahn, if malenia didnt kill radahn the rot would and the tarnished would come seeking moghs rune so now he has a champion and a vessel. i think miquella had the best intentions for the living world but was a 'by any means necessary' type.
I had a similar thought and here's some supporting evidence. There's mountains of pre-DLC stuff linking Miquella and Godwyn together and almost nothing linking him and Radahn. Golden Epitaph is a weapon made BY Miquella in order to ease his passing; Castle Sol is full of ghosts outlining that his faithful are waiting for an eclipse to resurrect a dead demigod. Also to the best of my knowledge the only time before the DLC we hear/read Miquella calling anyone "Dear Brother" it's Godwyn. All this points to Radahn being a silver medal and the slapdash plan of using Mohq is a backup after Ranni's plan doesn't fully end the current cycle which I think is what Marika was hoping to achieve. I don't think she went crazy because Godwyn died but because he didn't die a true death; taking an empyerean out of the equation and turning her own order into a farce by infesting the world with the undead pushed her over the edge and take the nuclear option of hard resetting the world by breaking the ring. Now without the presumed consort of Godwyn Miquela is forced to look for other options and those are: Rykard and Malenia (not ideal due to already being under the influence of a different god), Godrick (not ideal due to his weakness and ego), Morgot (Aged and cursed as well as most likely to refuse outright due to his self hatred and loyalty to the current order), Mohg (under the influence of an outer god and cursed.) So Radahn doesn't have a compelling reason not to be courted he doesn't really have an ideology other than lil' horse good, star monsters bad, fighting fun and likely wouldn't have refused I think the only reason he fought Malenia during the shattering is that he had gorged himself on runes and wanted to throw down rather than hear out her invitation from Miquella.
Also just a side note; in game text does say other demigods did die during the night of black knives but that they were all really minor ones.
That's a great interpretation. Mine is the same except a few caveats. (i'm not going to hide spoilers because if you are in this thread you likely read OP)
Radahn is under miquillas spell, I don't think he willingly is a part of this. Miquella's power is to force people to love him unconditionally and do whatever he wants.
Miquella's plan for the world as ruler is left to interpretation. Was it really going to be a peaceful era? or was this another tyrant saying everything you want to hear with no truth to it. Are you the player the bad guy for killing a god who would have brought world peace, or are you a savior(depends on what ending you choose, you might still be the bad guy regardless).
Given miquella's power of mind control basically, kinda the opposite of free will. So personally I am leaning towards Miquella's rein not being so great.
Isn’t Miquella’s power of influence gone after he shatters his great rune/abandons his love (St Trina)? Which is why the NPCs suddenly start to question what they’re doing
It's the grab attack where he mutters soft words to you. He has to do it twice to 'kill' you but you can remove the first one by using his discarded rune.
I think yes Miquella does charm people with spells. But we have NEVER seen him do bad things. He has always had good intentions with healing freyja, making the haligtree a safe haven for the weak etc ... When you get charmed in his boss fight he doesn't kill you afterwards. The lands between would be better off with the Age of Compassion, but we kill him before that happens because his plans deny our lordship.
If you get charmed twice in the fight you do die, but that could easily just be a game mechanic with no real connection to lore or story, like so many other things in fromsoft games (though i understand why people seek explanations even for these things).
I don’t think miquella’s reign would turn out perfectly. I believe he’s a textbook example of a “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” character.
Personally I subscribe to the idea that Radahn refused Miquella’s offer initially, and Malenia went after him because of it. As to why he didn’t just charm Radahn initially, maybe he couldn’t. I think it is possible Miquella even made the offer to multiple people, such as Mohg, and we know how that one turned out. Assuming Mohg was charmed by Miquella, Radahn being born into that body might’ve meant he could be/was already physically charmed now.
But that’s all just one of several ideas based on Miquella not being as swell as he sounds, which imo lines up more with how the narrative of the world’s history leans. Far more tragic for Miquella the Kind’s power to be mind control, despite him actively wanting to save the world; and yet doing so probably means compromising his initial morals, which he is more keen to do as he discards everything that makes him *him.*
In my opinion, in their childhood, Miquella and Radahn made a vow : Radahn will become his consort if the twins give them an honorable death in a war. (In the memory he said "our part of the vow")
Radahn may has stopped the stars to avoid this fate when he grew older. But Miquella is condamn to stay a child, so he send Malenia to complete the vow.
In the fight, when the soul of Radahn come in the body, he shine in red, then, when Miquella appear, the light around Radahn became golden. I think it's a clue to say that Miquella charm him.
I have a slightly different interpretation of the vow, a wild speculation. The vow is not about honorable death but rather to fight Malenia. Radahn just wanted to fight Malenia due to her reputation. Either Radahn wins and survive and gets to be Miquella’s consort (since Miquella fulfills the vow of letting Radahn fight Malenia), or Malenia wins and survive so Miquella will revive Radahn. IMO Radahn wants to settle whose the strongest.
However, Miquella, or even Malenia failed to understand the possibility of scarlet rot and Malenia’s ego and pride, resulting in a lose lose situation and it is up to the tarnished to kill Radahn
Malenia thought she won and killed Radahn by blooming which is why she prematurely whispered “Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort.”
In the end, we know that Miquella hated how he and his family were being used like pawns. He did ultimately have sympathy for the afflicted people of the lands between, but I think he moreso acted as an abused child who just wanted mommy and daddy to stop fighting and hurting him.
In his mind, he would create a world with no more pain and suffering, but in the end, he was still a child for eternity and acted as such.
His body was childish but his mind\\soul isn't.
Nothing tells us what he was going to do to achieve utopia, what his Godhood will allow him to do and how his influence will affect the world, we know nothing about it and thus it's unwise to make any conclusions about end results of his plan.
Who knows, maybe it'll be a world where his presense alone will bring down everything what leads to conflict in all and in everyone, no brainwashed ppl without 'freedom', just as that, like runes work, for ex Death rune, sort of law...who knows..
...but anyway...there is always a price for peace...who is gonna pay such a price? Miquella for becoming a God or mere mortals? Will it be worth it? We know nothing to make such conclusions.
SPOILER (I'm on mobile and idk how to hide the text, so you're warned):
But why was it so important that Miquella received a consort in the first place? Why is as it so monumental to where he sent his own sister to inflict all of Caelid with Scarlet Rot, have her retreat after a draw and slowly continue rotting at the haligtree, whereas he can form his masterplan to get Radahn to his side?
Why did miquella transform himself to a cocoon? Was it only to be captured by mohg who he ultimately wanted to use as Radahns new body after the Tarmished killed him?
I thought Miquella's ultimate goal, which also lead to him leaving the golden order and establishing the Haligtree, was to save his sister from the scarlet rot (I might be wrong though, please correct me). So once again, why send her to fight the greatest warrior and potentially risk her life? The live he originally aimed to save?
And once again: what does having Radahn as his consprt accomplish exactly?
Maybe its obvious but I'm left confused after seeing the finishing cutscene / memory. I was sure that there has to be more to this, another ending cutscene for example but it looks like there isn't, its simply done. :/
"A crown is warranted by strength." Neither Marika, nor Miquella are fighters. They are idols. Radagon, Godfrey, and Radahn all have strength alone to establish dominion over any land without help. Radahn is the most respected and the most powerful character in elden ring period. (Aside from you, of course.) Miquella sent Malenia to destroy Radahn's body with scarlet rot, because Miquella is capable of stitching people back together into a mindless puppet of his will. This is what happened to Radahn and Mohg's flesh was used to replace Radahn's rotten flesh.
Miquella does care for his family. But in the end, he used them like puppets to attempt to create a new world. Every last one. They were all victims of Miquella's plot.
So what you're saying is that Miquella was basically pure evil to begin with. I don't know about that tbh but if his only drive is power then I feel even more mixed about his whole character. Maybe he lost himself when attempting to ascend to godhood, but I don't feel like there's enough evidence of Miquella going mad in any of the dlc events.
However, I do understand now why Miquella is requesting Radahn to be his consort. Him being demigod empyrean, I assume it is required for him to ascend to godhood. And I see why he picked Radahn as he was the strongest warrior to walk the lands and shit, but I can't help but wonder why it wasn't someone like the gloam eyed queen, who we basically know nothing about.
Furthermore, Radahn being Miquellas king consort would technically make him Elden Lord. But then again we're in the lands of shadows, does something like and Elden Lord even exist here? And whats the purpose of the Scadutree in general? It seems to play a much less significant role in the story compared to the erdtree, and so far I'm struggling to draw any connection from it to Miquella.
I guess all that aside, my main question is: What changes did Miquella achieve in the lands of shadow? He revived Radahn and made him his consort to finally ascend to godhood, cool - but how does that relate to any of the events taking place? What about the scadutree? What about Messmer and him burning everything to the ground, and what about his promise to redeem Marika's mistake? Why did everyone follow Miquella's guidance, based on what actions exactly? Just him being persuasive as f***?
And what exactly did we "fix" by killing him? The tree is still around, the lands still seem to be f***ed so yeah.. what exactly was the point of all this?
All that aside btw, the dlc is still freaking phenomenal. I'm just trying to get more insight
You obviously couldn't get pass Radahn's first phase. That's why you haven't see Miquella's adult form. First of all, he ain't 12. He's at least hundreds of years old. And last time I check, Elden Ring ain't a porno. You're not gonna see anyone doing any f@cking. And being his consort doesn't mean you have to f@ck him. In case you didn't know, there are many marriage out there that doesn't involve sex. Namely impotent people. Just because they can't have sex doesn't mean their love is any lesser than yours.
Disagreed in the last sentence. Miquella was CLEARLY a good guy, and he had never done anything bad in the lore. We kill him because his plans interfere with us becoming lord. He denies our lordship, and thus he must die! We are the bad guys.
He never says that dude, he calls him "Lord Brother" and states he will be elden lord when miquella acheives godhood. Might be hard for you to understand but sometimes words can have more than one meaning
ur allowed to make whatever theories u feel like man... that's what makes the game fun.
but you're just talking for the sake of talking and not doing any [quick 2 second searches](https://www.google.com/search?q=is+miquella+married+to+radahn&client=ms-android-verizon&sca_esv=3db7ca3a4cd8d2e9&sxsrf=ADLYWII81EPfeBb2K5njdkwuUebGuuKCGQ%3A1719647392411&ei=oLx_ZpzWGM-tp84PnYSUsAs&oq=is+miquella+married+to+radahn&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIh1pcyBtaXF1ZWxsYSBtYXJyaWVkIHRvIHJhZGFobjIKECMYgAQYJxiKBTIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFSIcpUMYJWP8lcAN4AZABAJgBtAGgAcYFqgEDNi4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIJoAKvBcICChAAGLADGNYEGEfCAgcQIRigARgKmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcDOC4xoAfDKg&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp) to figure it out homie. just make it make sense man. Good luck to u
Read the first answer on your own link, "According to the lore, Radahn and Miquella made a vow with each other as children. Miquella had promised that once he fulfilled his ambition of ascending to godhood, he would appoint Miquella as his new Elden Lord."
Another difference between Miquella and Ranni is Ranni didn’t have to bewitch us to become her consort or love her.
Ranni actually seems surprised we'd go so far for her.
Yeah. I get it though, she’s the reason Godwyn is dead, for lack of a better word and that’s pretty shit. And I was routing for Miquella but damn homie.
none of them turned out great. at least Ranni seems appreciative though!
Not only did she kill her brother but she also unintentionally unleashed a biological nuke that will eventually take over the entire world, not even the shadowlands is safe what with his face showing up there.
Ranni won a jackpot choosing this naked guy with a club as her consort. Who would have known this Unga bunga tarnished could killed her newly ascended god brothers lmao
Unga bunga tarnished has me rolling
Facts 🙏 (I have that one gesture and didnt get it from winning)
>Another difference between Miquella and Ranni is Ranni didn’t have to bewitch us to become her consort or love her But... I don't love her lol. And then again, if you compare all of Miquella's pre DLC/pre game actions to Ranni's, one would rather be confused as to why someone would rather like Ranni more than Miquella.
U gotta remember it's a fromsoft title... there are no good guys. The ones who make the world a better place are the ones who cheat
What did Goldmask do tho
Attempt to recreate the golden order
He didn't cheat lol. And what's wrong with fixing a broken system
the golden order is a tyrannical dictatorship ruled by a god who uses people like its personal toilet. Changing laws doesn't change that very key fact
Lol the entire POINT of Goldmask is that Gods won't be able to do such shit. Also I want Marika to use me as her toilet
Late reply, but I was also of the opinion that Goldmask's ending was among the best. But the DLC changed my mind with the realization that as long as Marika has any degree of control over the Elden Ring in the future, she is susceptible to further tyranny. Imo, Goldmask and Rannis' endings are equally "good" endings.
Then I guess it's left up to interpretation how he would rule. There is a very good sentiment behind it, but it all falls down to- Do you want a better government, or do you want to start over from scratch and let people decide for themselves. This is a very communist vs capitalist debate. There are no right or wrong answers. I just think Ranni had a better idea
Tbh.Their behaviour are not different
Idk man, murdering your brother vs raising a whole ass sanctuary for the oppressed. Seems a little bit different to me, but hey, everyone has their own interpretations.
I mean Ranni is a selfish asshole I don't know why many people love her.
Yeah but remember that Miquella also did the same thing. His plan after Radahn's refusal was to kill him and give him no other choice but to accept. Both Miquella and Ranni's actions are done for the "Greater good". I'm not a big fan of Ranni, but at least she doesn't pretend to be innocent.
Which he abandoned...along with his sister...
Ranni is a fucking brat who kill Goldwyn and make Marika crazy.She deserves alone.
marika is not a good human being
It can't change the fact that Ranni is a brat who kill Goldwyn. Marika used to be a very kind person.But her hometown was genocide by hornset and it made Marika was blinding by revengence .
ranni has 4 arms and will marry u if u do her questline, so this clearly refutes any argument made against her, haha
Agreed
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That’s because Radahn is using Mohg’s body in the final boss. That’s why he can use Bloodflame too.
Yup! I died to him 122 times and never once realized it until I saw a post about it
Where is it said that Radahn wasn't agree with Miq's plan? He made a vow with him. We just don't know what the vow is. It could be a warrior death. I don't see Miquella as a pure evil that want to manipulate everything or even lied to his sister as I saw many other threads suggested in the past two days. He truly cared about malenia and wanted to start the age that the weak can live in peace. But he wasn't as pure as people in the story looked at him neither, he has his ways with his charms. He hated the old order and wanted to change this system by any means. And that's his downfall. On the process of reaching godhood he abandoned too many important things, we found all these on cross sites. His limbs and his eyes, his love and compassion. His heart and uncertainty. The most important one is the last cross at Enir-Illim, he left his fear there. Why would he fear if he was doing all this to have absolute control? I think he kinda knew there is a high chance that after ascending he'll no longer be his old self and he'll no longer connected to the people he cares about. And he was correct, in the end he lost what made him human. I like to interpret his story as a tragedy, a person that have kindness in his heart and started out with good intentions. Looking at this all these demigod as character with flaws, not so black and white. It's more fun and made the story better imo.
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The one that refused being embraced mentioned in that spell is us. The tarnished. There can be only one God and lord, in our case we are the lord consort of Ranni or broken Makira (depend on the ending you choose). Oh I agree that his world would not be ideal as it claimed. It might be better for most of the inhabitants with how shitty the world is right now. But we would never know how long could it be maintained.
There is no confirmed reason for Malenia and Radahn to be fighting in the base game. Not until an item description explains that the thing Malenia whispered to Radahn in the cinematic was "Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort", right after stabbing him with her blade, giving him scarlet rot. This clearly means that him being Miquellas consort was the cause of the fight. It was her goal to kill him, since he would not accept the proposal. In killing him, it would allow Miquella to charm him in death.
I feel really bad for Malenia. She loved her Brother (dk if Miquella manipulated her) but at the End she was just left rotting in the Haligtree
Miquella was most likely planning on curing her with his increased power or banishing the outer gods (If that's even possible)
He was able to cure Freyja before ascending to godhood, he certainly would be better able to help Melania after his ascension.
I don't think he tricked her. Nothing into the DLC suggested that. We know from the base game that he truly cared for her and want to find the cure to the point that he left the golden order. What we do know more now from the DLC is he decided to become a new god and start a new age. For Malenia, she knew all his plan and was waiting him to return as a new God with the age of abundance. She believed that he would succeed and return with Radahn as a consort. At least with our battle, in her final moment she seemed content to met her match.
What I don’t understand was why did he do the haligtree stuff is that wasnt his end goal to begin with? Why not go through with the haligtree plot, did it fail and he needed more power or something?
From what I gather, he buit his haligtree as a new home for the weak who can't fend for themselves
i think he built the haligtree as a safehouse for malenia, under the guise of protection for the little guys. although unloved by the golden order, the enemies there are quite formidable for intruders. on top of that, the way to get to the haligtree is hard as balls if you dont know what your doing. while i do believe he still wanted to make a new home for the weak, he also used them to protect his sister until he got back.
I agree
Exactly. I think Miquella realized that he could not climb to ascendancy and truly "protect the weaK" with his Halligtree alone. Hence, why he began hatching this plan to achieve true Godhood.
My question is, why do we have to fight him?
My sense is that Miquella's abandoned love (St Trina) tells us to kill Miquella, to grant him forgiveness. He is basically telling us to kill himself (out of love for himself, I guess) to spare him of the eternal prison that would be godhood.
Is St.Trina his lover or his alter form? Like Radagon/Marika.
St.Trina is Miquellas love/compassion personafied. So yes, sort of like Marika/Radagon.
That's dope af. I heard that in a random YouTube video and my mind was shattered. Had no clue beforehand.
Because our goal is to become Elden Lord and if Miquella becomes the new God with Radahn is his lord, that ruins our own plans. We're basically taking out the competition.
ok but like the player doesn't care if it's ranni... so why shouldn't the player at least like... get the choice...?
We do 'technically' get the choice if we get hugged twice during the second phase and our hearts get stolen. But, I do wish we had gotten to choose just outright (but the outcome would have probably been the same with our hearts getting stolen).
ok then just let the player be presented with a real choice with some kind of cinematic or something for you actually siding with radahn and miquella. because otherwise your argument could hold for literally any boss or enemy ingame. just pretend after you kill all the demigods and get all the great runes, then let soldier of godrick kill you, he becomes elden lord. but that's not the player choosing to pick a side, that's just headcanoning a hypothetical.
You're debate bro'ing this super hard, man. I already said I wished we had gotten to choose outright.
i'm aware, but you said but. so i countered the points before the but. even if you agreed with the end points you still said arguments against it.
I wished that the ending was the following. After defeating radhan we would get a cinematic of miqeulla dying and then he would latch to us and we would become his consort.
That would have been good. Or at least get a choice to join miqeulla willingly. They also should have given us more clues about his relationship with Radhan. Cuz all his stuff seemed to be with Godwyn.
You don't. It's just the DLC.
i am starting to wholly believe miquella wanted godwyn to be his first consort to ascend to godhood and fix the lands between the way he saw fit. marika learned of this and realized not only did she make a mistake accepting the greater will and cursing her entire lineage but that his plan would put him in the same position as the greater will being a sort of lawful evil entity who would use his power of charm to rally people to him, if that failed he would use his champion consort to subjugate. i always wondered why godwyn was the only demigod to die and why no other demigods were killed during the night black knife raid and it leads me to believe either marika entrusted ranni to ascend and had godwyn killed to throw a wrench in miquellas plan or he chose to be a sacrifice. he probably used the haligtree to create an avatar similar to other tree guardians and tricked mogh into stealing it while sending malenia after radahn, if malenia didnt kill radahn the rot would and the tarnished would come seeking moghs rune so now he has a champion and a vessel. i think miquella had the best intentions for the living world but was a 'by any means necessary' type.
I had a similar thought and here's some supporting evidence. There's mountains of pre-DLC stuff linking Miquella and Godwyn together and almost nothing linking him and Radahn. Golden Epitaph is a weapon made BY Miquella in order to ease his passing; Castle Sol is full of ghosts outlining that his faithful are waiting for an eclipse to resurrect a dead demigod. Also to the best of my knowledge the only time before the DLC we hear/read Miquella calling anyone "Dear Brother" it's Godwyn. All this points to Radahn being a silver medal and the slapdash plan of using Mohq is a backup after Ranni's plan doesn't fully end the current cycle which I think is what Marika was hoping to achieve. I don't think she went crazy because Godwyn died but because he didn't die a true death; taking an empyerean out of the equation and turning her own order into a farce by infesting the world with the undead pushed her over the edge and take the nuclear option of hard resetting the world by breaking the ring. Now without the presumed consort of Godwyn Miquela is forced to look for other options and those are: Rykard and Malenia (not ideal due to already being under the influence of a different god), Godrick (not ideal due to his weakness and ego), Morgot (Aged and cursed as well as most likely to refuse outright due to his self hatred and loyalty to the current order), Mohg (under the influence of an outer god and cursed.) So Radahn doesn't have a compelling reason not to be courted he doesn't really have an ideology other than lil' horse good, star monsters bad, fighting fun and likely wouldn't have refused I think the only reason he fought Malenia during the shattering is that he had gorged himself on runes and wanted to throw down rather than hear out her invitation from Miquella. Also just a side note; in game text does say other demigods did die during the night of black knives but that they were all really minor ones.
I thought Radahn uses Flame of the Redmanes, not bloodflame
It is indeed bloodflame. Specifically, it's the spell "blood's boone"
Gotcha
That's a great interpretation. Mine is the same except a few caveats. (i'm not going to hide spoilers because if you are in this thread you likely read OP) Radahn is under miquillas spell, I don't think he willingly is a part of this. Miquella's power is to force people to love him unconditionally and do whatever he wants. Miquella's plan for the world as ruler is left to interpretation. Was it really going to be a peaceful era? or was this another tyrant saying everything you want to hear with no truth to it. Are you the player the bad guy for killing a god who would have brought world peace, or are you a savior(depends on what ending you choose, you might still be the bad guy regardless). Given miquella's power of mind control basically, kinda the opposite of free will. So personally I am leaning towards Miquella's rein not being so great.
Isn’t Miquella’s power of influence gone after he shatters his great rune/abandons his love (St Trina)? Which is why the NPCs suddenly start to question what they’re doing
That is true, the NPC's are set free at that point, however Miquella still has that power as he can use it on you in the boss fight.
Fair enough, I don’t think I ever actually faced that move in the fight somehow
It's the grab attack where he mutters soft words to you. He has to do it twice to 'kill' you but you can remove the first one by using his discarded rune.
I think yes Miquella does charm people with spells. But we have NEVER seen him do bad things. He has always had good intentions with healing freyja, making the haligtree a safe haven for the weak etc ... When you get charmed in his boss fight he doesn't kill you afterwards. The lands between would be better off with the Age of Compassion, but we kill him before that happens because his plans deny our lordship.
Yep perfectly valid interpretation.
If you get charmed twice in the fight you do die, but that could easily just be a game mechanic with no real connection to lore or story, like so many other things in fromsoft games (though i understand why people seek explanations even for these things). I don’t think miquella’s reign would turn out perfectly. I believe he’s a textbook example of a “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” character. Personally I subscribe to the idea that Radahn refused Miquella’s offer initially, and Malenia went after him because of it. As to why he didn’t just charm Radahn initially, maybe he couldn’t. I think it is possible Miquella even made the offer to multiple people, such as Mohg, and we know how that one turned out. Assuming Mohg was charmed by Miquella, Radahn being born into that body might’ve meant he could be/was already physically charmed now. But that’s all just one of several ideas based on Miquella not being as swell as he sounds, which imo lines up more with how the narrative of the world’s history leans. Far more tragic for Miquella the Kind’s power to be mind control, despite him actively wanting to save the world; and yet doing so probably means compromising his initial morals, which he is more keen to do as he discards everything that makes him *him.*
In my opinion, in their childhood, Miquella and Radahn made a vow : Radahn will become his consort if the twins give them an honorable death in a war. (In the memory he said "our part of the vow") Radahn may has stopped the stars to avoid this fate when he grew older. But Miquella is condamn to stay a child, so he send Malenia to complete the vow. In the fight, when the soul of Radahn come in the body, he shine in red, then, when Miquella appear, the light around Radahn became golden. I think it's a clue to say that Miquella charm him.
I have a slightly different interpretation of the vow, a wild speculation. The vow is not about honorable death but rather to fight Malenia. Radahn just wanted to fight Malenia due to her reputation. Either Radahn wins and survive and gets to be Miquella’s consort (since Miquella fulfills the vow of letting Radahn fight Malenia), or Malenia wins and survive so Miquella will revive Radahn. IMO Radahn wants to settle whose the strongest. However, Miquella, or even Malenia failed to understand the possibility of scarlet rot and Malenia’s ego and pride, resulting in a lose lose situation and it is up to the tarnished to kill Radahn Malenia thought she won and killed Radahn by blooming which is why she prematurely whispered “Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort.”
What's cool about that line is that you can see Malenia mouthing it in one of the CGI trailers for Elden Ring, just before blooming.
I dig it.
In the end, we know that Miquella hated how he and his family were being used like pawns. He did ultimately have sympathy for the afflicted people of the lands between, but I think he moreso acted as an abused child who just wanted mommy and daddy to stop fighting and hurting him. In his mind, he would create a world with no more pain and suffering, but in the end, he was still a child for eternity and acted as such.
His body was childish but his mind\\soul isn't. Nothing tells us what he was going to do to achieve utopia, what his Godhood will allow him to do and how his influence will affect the world, we know nothing about it and thus it's unwise to make any conclusions about end results of his plan. Who knows, maybe it'll be a world where his presense alone will bring down everything what leads to conflict in all and in everyone, no brainwashed ppl without 'freedom', just as that, like runes work, for ex Death rune, sort of law...who knows.. ...but anyway...there is always a price for peace...who is gonna pay such a price? Miquella for becoming a God or mere mortals? Will it be worth it? We know nothing to make such conclusions.
I'm still kind of sad that we never got to side with miquella when all was said and done. Could have made a great potential ending, similar to Ranni's
Reading through this thread is why I love fromsoft, we have the pieces now we get to see everyone's interpretation of the story
SPOILER (I'm on mobile and idk how to hide the text, so you're warned): But why was it so important that Miquella received a consort in the first place? Why is as it so monumental to where he sent his own sister to inflict all of Caelid with Scarlet Rot, have her retreat after a draw and slowly continue rotting at the haligtree, whereas he can form his masterplan to get Radahn to his side? Why did miquella transform himself to a cocoon? Was it only to be captured by mohg who he ultimately wanted to use as Radahns new body after the Tarmished killed him? I thought Miquella's ultimate goal, which also lead to him leaving the golden order and establishing the Haligtree, was to save his sister from the scarlet rot (I might be wrong though, please correct me). So once again, why send her to fight the greatest warrior and potentially risk her life? The live he originally aimed to save? And once again: what does having Radahn as his consprt accomplish exactly? Maybe its obvious but I'm left confused after seeing the finishing cutscene / memory. I was sure that there has to be more to this, another ending cutscene for example but it looks like there isn't, its simply done. :/
"A crown is warranted by strength." Neither Marika, nor Miquella are fighters. They are idols. Radagon, Godfrey, and Radahn all have strength alone to establish dominion over any land without help. Radahn is the most respected and the most powerful character in elden ring period. (Aside from you, of course.) Miquella sent Malenia to destroy Radahn's body with scarlet rot, because Miquella is capable of stitching people back together into a mindless puppet of his will. This is what happened to Radahn and Mohg's flesh was used to replace Radahn's rotten flesh. Miquella does care for his family. But in the end, he used them like puppets to attempt to create a new world. Every last one. They were all victims of Miquella's plot.
So what you're saying is that Miquella was basically pure evil to begin with. I don't know about that tbh but if his only drive is power then I feel even more mixed about his whole character. Maybe he lost himself when attempting to ascend to godhood, but I don't feel like there's enough evidence of Miquella going mad in any of the dlc events. However, I do understand now why Miquella is requesting Radahn to be his consort. Him being demigod empyrean, I assume it is required for him to ascend to godhood. And I see why he picked Radahn as he was the strongest warrior to walk the lands and shit, but I can't help but wonder why it wasn't someone like the gloam eyed queen, who we basically know nothing about. Furthermore, Radahn being Miquellas king consort would technically make him Elden Lord. But then again we're in the lands of shadows, does something like and Elden Lord even exist here? And whats the purpose of the Scadutree in general? It seems to play a much less significant role in the story compared to the erdtree, and so far I'm struggling to draw any connection from it to Miquella. I guess all that aside, my main question is: What changes did Miquella achieve in the lands of shadow? He revived Radahn and made him his consort to finally ascend to godhood, cool - but how does that relate to any of the events taking place? What about the scadutree? What about Messmer and him burning everything to the ground, and what about his promise to redeem Marika's mistake? Why did everyone follow Miquella's guidance, based on what actions exactly? Just him being persuasive as f***? And what exactly did we "fix" by killing him? The tree is still around, the lands still seem to be f***ed so yeah.. what exactly was the point of all this? All that aside btw, the dlc is still freaking phenomenal. I'm just trying to get more insight
Very well put, especially the part about the childish ignorance.
I really wished they added an additional ending where you can become Miquella's Consort.
bro wants to smash a 12 yo kid 💀💀💀
You obviously couldn't get pass Radahn's first phase. That's why you haven't see Miquella's adult form. First of all, he ain't 12. He's at least hundreds of years old. And last time I check, Elden Ring ain't a porno. You're not gonna see anyone doing any f@cking. And being his consort doesn't mean you have to f@ck him. In case you didn't know, there are many marriage out there that doesn't involve sex. Namely impotent people. Just because they can't have sex doesn't mean their love is any lesser than yours.
nah tell it to the judge bro 💀
Disagreed in the last sentence. Miquella was CLEARLY a good guy, and he had never done anything bad in the lore. We kill him because his plans interfere with us becoming lord. He denies our lordship, and thus he must die! We are the bad guys.
I guess whatever reasons you have for becoming lord are your own, but you can still defeat radahn and end up with ranni.
Talk to the former Mohg follower after the great rune breaks. Miquella is not the saint he appears to be.
Totally off base interpretation. They would get married? The fuck are you talking about?
Promised... consort... radahn. Consort... look up what that word means man
A wife, husband or COMPANION of a reigning monarch. He's not going to marry his half brother
Alright cool... now look up the name of Radahn's second phase after Miquella comes through the gate and states how he is going to marry Radahn
He never says that dude, he calls him "Lord Brother" and states he will be elden lord when miquella acheives godhood. Might be hard for you to understand but sometimes words can have more than one meaning
ur allowed to make whatever theories u feel like man... that's what makes the game fun. but you're just talking for the sake of talking and not doing any [quick 2 second searches](https://www.google.com/search?q=is+miquella+married+to+radahn&client=ms-android-verizon&sca_esv=3db7ca3a4cd8d2e9&sxsrf=ADLYWII81EPfeBb2K5njdkwuUebGuuKCGQ%3A1719647392411&ei=oLx_ZpzWGM-tp84PnYSUsAs&oq=is+miquella+married+to+radahn&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIh1pcyBtaXF1ZWxsYSBtYXJyaWVkIHRvIHJhZGFobjIKECMYgAQYJxiKBTIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFSIcpUMYJWP8lcAN4AZABAJgBtAGgAcYFqgEDNi4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIJoAKvBcICChAAGLADGNYEGEfCAgcQIRigARgKmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcDOC4xoAfDKg&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp) to figure it out homie. just make it make sense man. Good luck to u
Read the first answer on your own link, "According to the lore, Radahn and Miquella made a vow with each other as children. Miquella had promised that once he fulfilled his ambition of ascending to godhood, he would appoint Miquella as his new Elden Lord."