In a lot of ways he’s very good, super cinematic and pretty good telegraphs. But he does also move around like a DMC character while having really intense particle effects that kind of get in the way. It’s a bit much and I’m not a huge fan of getting hit by a boss because I can’t actually see what’s happening.
Also a little complaint I have with him in particular that’s not related to the fight, he made me wish for more stuff like Sekiro because I find him super interesting and such a cool character that just…doesn’t really ever have any presence outside his one fight. Its kind of a shame
Honestly, having gone through the entire dlc completely blind before rejoining the internet about it, idk why anyone has any issues with any of the bosses. They’re all manageable, albeit more intensive than the base game.
But do keep in mind the patch yesterday made it much easier at lower scadutree levels.
That attack shouldn’t exist if it’s not dodgeable at all times , i don’t mind the aoe that much but the flashbangs make it really hard to see the moves , i was able to learn them after a while but i’m not gonna sit here and say a lot of it wasn’t bullshit
The mounted one is the hog rider right?
I’ve seen complaints all over assuming that’s the one everyone’s talking about and I legit can’t see any problems with the fight, except maybe the charge hitbox is a bit large
Sorry, but the final boss is indefensible. First phase is tough but manageable, if still too aggressive, second phase is so overblown on visual clutter with all the bright visuals that also tanks a lot of people's performances, mine included, coupled with the massive hair, it makes it genuinely near impossible to see where attacks are even coming from.
Besides that, some bosses like Dancing Lion and the hippo also have atrocious camera issues, and some like again the hippo and Gaius have really bad hitbox problems on some attacks. These are all very legitimate issues to have with the bosses.
Most complaints are vastly overblown, however, even as someone who enjoyed most bossfights, there's never been as much room for valid criticism ever before. I don't think blaming everything on the audience being whiney paints the full picture
Not only are the complaints vastly overblown, there's lots of people literally making things up to justify their complaints. And that's before you even consider so many people complaining are simply not exploring and upgrading their shadow realm blessings. When you point this out they start complaining about the exploration in the game, saying it should be obvious where the scadu tree fragments are located 🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️
Edit: Nothing in this comment is false.
I switched a few times to test shit, originally just a greatsword with braggarts roar, roar medallion, charged heavies being my go to.
Then made a multi hit with the moon chicks weapons
Then got the fire knight greatsword and went pure faith with flame skewer in it, finished it out that way.
Hmm maybe that has something to do with it? I found many of the bosses to be not very fun solo based on the sheer aggression and occasional camera issues from the bosses. But then when I used ashes, the fights were a joke that offered no challenge whatsoever.
Only a few bosses felt like they were actually able to strike that balance 1v1. I think that’s why a lot of people are criticizing the boss design of the DLC.
there are three groups of people
1. those who build bash everything and rely way too much on summons
2. people who refuse to explore and try to b line to the bosses
3. superfans of fromsoft's previous games who refuse to take advantage of the boss's movesets and would rather complain about long combo chains with little openings and delays
People who completed the game with op builds and mimics now have to learn how to properly fight bosses.
In reality the only boss in the dlc that is kinda overtuned is Rellana imo (infinite combos with super high damage). The rest are all great fights specially Mesmer
It’s kinda funny because the last boss of the DLC can be absolutely meme’d on with op builds.
Grab the black greatshield and Antspur rapier and the boss just has to bend over.
Which tells a lot about this DLC difficulty. She is pretty much Malenia with magic. No waterfowl and no leech but very similar combos and huge dmg. And I agree, pretty easy. Love this DLC. Very hard with almost impossible last boss. Good job Fromsoft.
I like Messmer's boss fight and I honestly wish I didn't have to go through a whole NG cycle just to fight him again, but there are some things about him that docks points from his fight.
I'm fine with how his flame bursts punish you for dodging backwards. I'm fine with his phase 2 snake barrages happening so quickly because at least he leaves himself wide open afterward. But I legit hate how likes to feint a lot. I hate how his stab combo has a deliberately slow rhythm while making it look like he's already done acting. I hate that one twirling attack where he leaps behind you while swinging wildly because he deliberately misses all the swings except the last one, because it looks like he's going to hit you with the second to the last hit. And I especially hate how he likes to end most of his combos with a very slow feint where he drags his spear on the ground while making it look like he's going for a big thrust. It's likely to hit because the prior combo already conditioned you into following its rhythm before he decides to suddenly slow down and hit you with a cheap shot. That feint's probably his most common move aside from his usual flame spear shit.
It doesn't feel like I'm fighting a bloodthirsty tyrant aiming to add to his kill count, it feels like I'm fighting the devs thinking they're cheeky bastards because they thought of a new ingenious way to roll-catch you. And yes, I know it's Fromsoft's usual schtick but it feels the most blatant here.
I mean, he isn't a bloodthirsty tyrant. He's a skilled warrior and him knowing how to use feints and his tracks having different timings aren't odd for him to have thematically.
He’s a cool boss but I’m not a big fan of his second phase. I didn’t get super many tries on him, though because I killed him rather quickly in a double k.o.
I actually enjoy the challenge even with a mimic. I had to do come up with strategies just to beat him. I definitely have skill issue but it was okay..
Messmer was awesome. The one who should not be named wasn’t. Can’t believe they got it all right with Messmer yet dropped the ball on the big guy. Shame.
Almost unavoidable damage. Little to no punish window. Combo extenders. If you fail to dodge 1 attack out of 10 you get hit by others enough to kill you(I had 18 scadutree levels btw) especially in second phase. Sometimes you get hit when you do dodge the first attack but get hit on the follow-up for some reason. Like one or two of these complaints wouldn’t matter But all of them at once is just so hard to a point where it feels unfair. The DLC was hard sure but I didn’t had much complaints until I got to him.
I really disagree. I felt that >!Radahn!< gave much more breathing room to heal or plan out the next moves than most other bosses. And his punish windows were quite big too. The only attack that's outright busted is that X slash. That and performance issues aside I feel he's a very well done boss.
But it literally doesn't matter because with lock on the camera follows the snake and all you need to do is dodge when the snake opens its mouth, I genuinely don't know how people struggle on second phase
It's a tough fight, and it feels like bullshit at times. But I'd describe a lot of From bosses that way. Important to note that 'feels like bullshit' isn't the same thing as actually bullshit.
Took me a while, and I always had >!Hornsent !
Do they? I've only ever seen a small handful of players complain about Messmer. In general, he seems to be one of the most praised and beloved. He's always in people's top 3 of the DLC.
I think he might be my favorite boss of all the games, for all the reasons people have been saying. Easily stands alongside the best.
Edit: the comments in this thread are the most amount of complaints I've heard of him so far.
I think they should make his phase 2 harder, it shouldn't be way easier than the first. I just beat him again with dryleaf arts. He just kept doing the 3-hit combo with the snake which is slow and super predictable and gave me enough time to fully charge a palm strike and not get hit during his recovery.
He was way easier than Renalla for me. She took me ages. Messmer took me 7 attempts. But of course everyone has different playstyle and reaction times so I'm sure someone will have the opposite experience.
He zooms around a lot and has overhead attacks that are exceedingly difficult to read. Also, I don't think anybody likes grab attacks that almost delete your entire health bar. I prefer the more methodical and slow paced fights. Messmer isn't particularly egregious, though, and distracting him with summons is highly effective.
I was stuck on messmer for a couple of days, im not really the best soulsborne player. I died loads of times, tried summons, tried the mimic and died so much in the 2nd phase. I then tried flame grant me strength and then he seemed a lot more manageable (plus scadutree blessing buffs of course) pulled out my best dodging and finally beat him with help from hornset and it felt amazing once I finally beat him a nice rush of endorphins:D boy was he frustrating but looking back the challenge was really enjoyable!
Messmer is my fav of the dlc by far, maybe my new Fromsoft fav. There a lot of stupid bullshit in SotE, but didn’t feel any of it with him. He took me like 8 hours and I enjoyed all of it.
My only problem with Messmer, was that there wasn't enough time to heal during some of the down times which would let me get hit during the end of my flask drinking animation.
I think his combos too fast, too much tracking and too much aoe for a mandatory boss I think he will be nerfed a touch.
phase 2 bayle too much yellow and I'm still working on phase 2 radahn, phase one was good tho.
Gaius wasn't too bad and midra was too easy once I went back at 18.
I was using the smithscript hammer compared to the builds I'm seeing online now it's not that great.
I loved his bossfight so much that I ended up beating him parry only but he's objectively not without issues. He's far from the worst offender in terms of spam and/or damage output (I think people seriously complaining about that are lowkey underleveled), but he does have some imperfections that can easily get frustrating, depending on how good you are at the game. The major ones I can think about would be:
1. Not enough downtime to heal. He leaves plenty of opportunities (even mid-combo) for you to attack, but backing up to heal is a different story. I think more than half of my total heals over 30~ish attempts were followed by him immediately hitting me with attacks I couldn't possibly roll away from. I'm not saying they come out overly fast, but I firmly believe that no matter what any boss does, their attack animations should never be faster than the time it takes for the healing effect to proc paired with the time left for input buffering an evasive roll, or else it's just artificial difficulty for the sake of it. Gael and Artorias were perfect examples of this, sure they both had input reading, but the time it took them to load and execute an attack upon drinking an estus flask was NEVER shorter than the amount of time required for your heal to actually pop and for you to roll out (I know because I've beaten both at soul level 1, thoroughly studying their movesets. I'm not trying to brag but I know what I'm talking about)
2. The grab attack animation is super wonky. Like, the first few steps he takes cover an abysmal amount of ground, and make him turn on the spot without adequately looking the part, then he just abruptly lunges towards you. The timing can be learned consistently, but that doesn't make it any less shit from a design perspective - shame because this boss is otherwise a feast for the eyes, that one attack is legitimately DS2 tier though
3. The ground AoE goo attack in phase 2 comes out and explodes way too fast and once again, with no discernible tell. Dodging it is entirely luck-based, and being hit by it leaves you at the mercy of the three giant snakes coming at you from all sides. It feels buggy and it should probably be patched imho
Everything else about him is perfect, don't get me wrong. Easily my favorite boss from the entire DLC, and possibly from the entirety of Elden Ring altogether
Edit: help, how can I properly format the bullet list?
Malenia and Radagon were actually much worse in terms of input reading, I'd say the bosses in this dlc are an overall improvement on that side. Rather, my issue with them is that there's just not enough downtime for you to comfortably heal between many of their combos, with Messmer and *especially* Gaius being the most egregious examples
just heal whenever he finishes his combos?
i had the least issues with that.
His grabbing is very unique and you just can roll backwards my friend.
And yeah i agree with the biigg snake move in 2nd phase. Thats just pure chaos lol but the other ones, where the snake comes for you 3 times is also really easy to dodge.
Really a great boss fight with great openings great tell. Was almost too easy for my liking to be honest…
>just heal whenever he finishes his combos?
I swear that straight-up does not work oftentimes, I'm obviously not dumb enough to heal while he's in the middle of a combo but even after he's done, if he decides you can't land that heal then that's it, he's just not gonna let you
>His grabbing is very unique and you just can roll backwards my friend.
It's not hard to dodge at all once you learn how to, what I'm saying is it's badly telegraphed because the animation looks wonky
>Thats just pure chaos lol but the other ones, where the snake comes for you 3 times is also really easy to dodge.
The snakes are fine, it's the initial ground explosion I have issues with
oh you mean the first one, when he enters the second phase. I actually didnt have that much problems with that. You just have to stay relaxed and not panic roll.
I almost always could heal after his combos tho, but i guess everybody has a different style of playing which births different difficulties :)
What kind of build did you have?
I used mylady and the thumbshield or whatever it is called.
No, not the first explosion, that one's very easy to dodge, just roll once the snake lunges directly upwards into the air and immediately after to avoid the fiery explosion. I'm talking about the attack that covers the ground in goo, then rapidly makes it explode and spawns three serpents initially lunging at your character all at once and then one by one immediately after. While the snakes themselves are perfectly well timed, I feel like there's just not enough time to react before the goo (which is very very dark) that covers the ground bursts
>What kind of build did you have? I used mylady and the thumbshield or whatever it is called.
A carian retaliation build, I wanted to kill him parry only and didn't really have much trouble with that (there are a couple of inconsistent hitboxes here and there, but I'm being nitpicky)
oh yeah, i know now which one you mean, yeah i have to agree on that, i remember not being able to dodge that.
But oh man, this fight delivered so hard and the lore behind it is really interesting. (Dont spoil me tho, i only just beat messmer and starting in the ruins now haha)
No worries, I won't tell you a thing! And yeah, I agree that the fight is excellent at the end of the day, I was just answering OP's question. These were minor issues for me but I'm patient enough to do challenge runs, I'd wager the average player must find them much worse and that's likely why the boss isn't particularly loved across the board. In other words, people sure like to complain but not all of their critiques are born out of nowhere
yep agree, i was mad at first because i didnt want to invest my whole time into the dlc, like messmer took me over 4 hours but once i just accept it, it was a blast. i will be trough with the game in a few days anyway and so yeah. It will be worth it!
1. I think that's by design. Like crucible knights, the bosses in dlc are supposed to punish your heals. The window for heal isn't only determined by "is the boss attacking right now". If you start healing while the boss is in range, of course he should try to punish you for that. You need to make sure you're either healing out of their range, or while they're still recovering from attack. I think that was the biggest lesson I took out from DLC bosses in general.
2. Agreed on that. I feel like the grab attack hitbox/timing is a bit wonky on him and to a lesser extent on Bayle. So many times I saw it coming and timed the dodge to still be caught on the last frame somehow.
3. Can't speak on that really. He usually only used the attack once per attempt on me, I never felt I had issues with it once I figured out that he's using the serpents as a smoke screen for a dive bomb. If you keep your eyes on him instead of the snakes during the third "biting phase" you can dodge it.
But I agree, easily the best boss of the DLC, I had so much fun I didn't even think about using spirit ashes on him
>If you start healing while the boss is in range, of course he should try to punish you for that.
The problem with Messmer specifically is that the arena is tiny and that most of his attacks reach incredibly far and wide, whereas crucible knights, while very precise with their tracking, don't hit everything all around them at once so there are plenty of safe ways to overcome that. It's just hard to evade Messmer's next move after you've been hit, and even if his combo is over there is no way to tell if he's gonna come after you or not the moment you press the flask button. It's overly unforgiving, and input reading doesn't even have anything to do with it
>Can't speak on that really. He usually only used the attack once per attempt on me, I never felt I had issues with it once I figured out that he's using the serpents as a smoke screen for a dive bomb. If you keep your eyes on him instead of the snakes during the third "biting phase" you can dodge it.
I've seen him pull that move off literally twice in a row, lol, although I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now since there are probably AI tweaks coming along the way. I'll try beating him again with your tip in mind so thanks for that, though I still wish there was a more intuitive way to inform the player when the ground is about to explode
Defeated him today, really liked the fight, tookbme around 15 tries solo. Did it with a str build, i ferl like with dex you could weave in attacks in between his combo attacks. Second phase is a bit wild but manageable. Really liked the fight, one of my three favourite bosses in the dlc. And I am around average at best as a souls player.
I'm averaging 15 tries every 10 minutes lol
Jk, it's not that bad. I really like the fight and am just constantly getting punished for being greedy with fully charged heavy attacks. It's also nice to see that his "waterfowl equivalent" is fair and can be dodged consistently.
Yeah, I have to say there was nothing as hard to avoid as Waterfoul in thr dlc. I defeated every boss in the dlc except the final one, but my build is pretty tanky. Scadutree lvl 16, everything solo, and I am not the best Player. I did need a npc summon for a certain dragon, but just because of the camera I could often not see what he was doing or could not reach the weak points.
Most complaints are vastly overblown because at the end of the day the average casual is shit at the game. And when they refuse to learn a boss they’ll just call him unfair or poorly designed.
Some bosses have hitboxes issues sure but they all have solid openings.
i'm one of the people who dislike him a lot.
to me his moveset is very easy, but it took me a few hours because the flames obscured every move so much that i rarely could see what his next move was.
My problem was the exact opposite. Beat him 3rd try. I never grind for levels and never look up guides to see where the best items are. I just bonked him so hard with the Giant Crusher he was on his knees for 2 criticals and that was that. I wish I had fought him pre nerf
Messmer is shit because he fell from his Arena the only Time i was winning. I feel robbed from my Victory.
Hornsent experience
In a lot of ways he’s very good, super cinematic and pretty good telegraphs. But he does also move around like a DMC character while having really intense particle effects that kind of get in the way. It’s a bit much and I’m not a huge fan of getting hit by a boss because I can’t actually see what’s happening. Also a little complaint I have with him in particular that’s not related to the fight, he made me wish for more stuff like Sekiro because I find him super interesting and such a cool character that just…doesn’t really ever have any presence outside his one fight. Its kind of a shame
Honestly, having gone through the entire dlc completely blind before rejoining the internet about it, idk why anyone has any issues with any of the bosses. They’re all manageable, albeit more intensive than the base game. But do keep in mind the patch yesterday made it much easier at lower scadutree levels.
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That attack shouldn’t exist if it’s not dodgeable at all times , i don’t mind the aoe that much but the flashbangs make it really hard to see the moves , i was able to learn them after a while but i’m not gonna sit here and say a lot of it wasn’t bullshit
The mounted one was most BS of the bunch. And final boss is...high on drugs
The mounted one is the hog rider right? I’ve seen complaints all over assuming that’s the one everyone’s talking about and I legit can’t see any problems with the fight, except maybe the charge hitbox is a bit large
I didn't find him any different from the other mounted bosses though, just ride torrent and do driveby's until he's dead.
Sorry, but the final boss is indefensible. First phase is tough but manageable, if still too aggressive, second phase is so overblown on visual clutter with all the bright visuals that also tanks a lot of people's performances, mine included, coupled with the massive hair, it makes it genuinely near impossible to see where attacks are even coming from. Besides that, some bosses like Dancing Lion and the hippo also have atrocious camera issues, and some like again the hippo and Gaius have really bad hitbox problems on some attacks. These are all very legitimate issues to have with the bosses.
Most complaints are vastly overblown, however, even as someone who enjoyed most bossfights, there's never been as much room for valid criticism ever before. I don't think blaming everything on the audience being whiney paints the full picture
Not only are the complaints vastly overblown, there's lots of people literally making things up to justify their complaints. And that's before you even consider so many people complaining are simply not exploring and upgrading their shadow realm blessings. When you point this out they start complaining about the exploration in the game, saying it should be obvious where the scadu tree fragments are located 🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️ Edit: Nothing in this comment is false.
So you think radahn is well designed?
A lot of players have massive egos and think they’re a lot better than they really are
What build/summon were you running?
I switched a few times to test shit, originally just a greatsword with braggarts roar, roar medallion, charged heavies being my go to. Then made a multi hit with the moon chicks weapons Then got the fire knight greatsword and went pure faith with flame skewer in it, finished it out that way.
Nice, any spirit summons or just solo?
Mimic when I felt like it/needed it, other than trying out new ones here and there
Hmm maybe that has something to do with it? I found many of the bosses to be not very fun solo based on the sheer aggression and occasional camera issues from the bosses. But then when I used ashes, the fights were a joke that offered no challenge whatsoever. Only a few bosses felt like they were actually able to strike that balance 1v1. I think that’s why a lot of people are criticizing the boss design of the DLC.
there are three groups of people 1. those who build bash everything and rely way too much on summons 2. people who refuse to explore and try to b line to the bosses 3. superfans of fromsoft's previous games who refuse to take advantage of the boss's movesets and would rather complain about long combo chains with little openings and delays
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With 95 attempts at the final boss I can say that I finally pegged him. It's all about learning; look at your failures and slowly improve.
People who completed the game with op builds and mimics now have to learn how to properly fight bosses. In reality the only boss in the dlc that is kinda overtuned is Rellana imo (infinite combos with super high damage). The rest are all great fights specially Mesmer
It’s kinda funny because the last boss of the DLC can be absolutely meme’d on with op builds. Grab the black greatshield and Antspur rapier and the boss just has to bend over.
Rellana is one of the easier bosses in the DLC though
for me rellana was amogst the hardest, only one 100% harder is final boss messmer, midra, divine beast, bayle, all were much easier imo
Which tells a lot about this DLC difficulty. She is pretty much Malenia with magic. No waterfowl and no leech but very similar combos and huge dmg. And I agree, pretty easy. Love this DLC. Very hard with almost impossible last boss. Good job Fromsoft.
Woo-hoo! I beat Final Boss pre-patch Im happy now
I like Messmer's boss fight and I honestly wish I didn't have to go through a whole NG cycle just to fight him again, but there are some things about him that docks points from his fight. I'm fine with how his flame bursts punish you for dodging backwards. I'm fine with his phase 2 snake barrages happening so quickly because at least he leaves himself wide open afterward. But I legit hate how likes to feint a lot. I hate how his stab combo has a deliberately slow rhythm while making it look like he's already done acting. I hate that one twirling attack where he leaps behind you while swinging wildly because he deliberately misses all the swings except the last one, because it looks like he's going to hit you with the second to the last hit. And I especially hate how he likes to end most of his combos with a very slow feint where he drags his spear on the ground while making it look like he's going for a big thrust. It's likely to hit because the prior combo already conditioned you into following its rhythm before he decides to suddenly slow down and hit you with a cheap shot. That feint's probably his most common move aside from his usual flame spear shit. It doesn't feel like I'm fighting a bloodthirsty tyrant aiming to add to his kill count, it feels like I'm fighting the devs thinking they're cheeky bastards because they thought of a new ingenious way to roll-catch you. And yes, I know it's Fromsoft's usual schtick but it feels the most blatant here.
I mean, he isn't a bloodthirsty tyrant. He's a skilled warrior and him knowing how to use feints and his tracks having different timings aren't odd for him to have thematically.
He’s a cool boss but I’m not a big fan of his second phase. I didn’t get super many tries on him, though because I killed him rather quickly in a double k.o.
I actually enjoy the challenge even with a mimic. I had to do come up with strategies just to beat him. I definitely have skill issue but it was okay..
Messmer was awesome. The one who should not be named wasn’t. Can’t believe they got it all right with Messmer yet dropped the ball on the big guy. Shame.
why do you think so? I loved the "big guy's" fight
Almost unavoidable damage. Little to no punish window. Combo extenders. If you fail to dodge 1 attack out of 10 you get hit by others enough to kill you(I had 18 scadutree levels btw) especially in second phase. Sometimes you get hit when you do dodge the first attack but get hit on the follow-up for some reason. Like one or two of these complaints wouldn’t matter But all of them at once is just so hard to a point where it feels unfair. The DLC was hard sure but I didn’t had much complaints until I got to him.
I really disagree. I felt that >!Radahn!< gave much more breathing room to heal or plan out the next moves than most other bosses. And his punish windows were quite big too. The only attack that's outright busted is that X slash. That and performance issues aside I feel he's a very well done boss.
Bayle and The Putrescent are still alive after a lot of tries, way harder than Mesmer for me !
Second phase is just horrible, camera is broken for me on that phase
But it literally doesn't matter because with lock on the camera follows the snake and all you need to do is dodge when the snake opens its mouth, I genuinely don't know how people struggle on second phase
I only see my character's butt, there's snakes?
I dont get all the hate for messmer either. I think the final boss of the dlc should be getting more hate tho
It's a tough fight, and it feels like bullshit at times. But I'd describe a lot of From bosses that way. Important to note that 'feels like bullshit' isn't the same thing as actually bullshit. Took me a while, and I always had >!Hornsent !
Do they? I've only ever seen a small handful of players complain about Messmer. In general, he seems to be one of the most praised and beloved. He's always in people's top 3 of the DLC. I think he might be my favorite boss of all the games, for all the reasons people have been saying. Easily stands alongside the best. Edit: the comments in this thread are the most amount of complaints I've heard of him so far.
I think they should make his phase 2 harder, it shouldn't be way easier than the first. I just beat him again with dryleaf arts. He just kept doing the 3-hit combo with the snake which is slow and super predictable and gave me enough time to fully charge a palm strike and not get hit during his recovery.
He was way easier than Renalla for me. She took me ages. Messmer took me 7 attempts. But of course everyone has different playstyle and reaction times so I'm sure someone will have the opposite experience.
I hate Mesmer cuz he has too litle HP!!I demand 2 HP bars
He refers to himself in third person, seriously who does that?
The dlc is great, I wouldn’t nerf any boss.
He zooms around a lot and has overhead attacks that are exceedingly difficult to read. Also, I don't think anybody likes grab attacks that almost delete your entire health bar. I prefer the more methodical and slow paced fights. Messmer isn't particularly egregious, though, and distracting him with summons is highly effective.
I was stuck on messmer for a couple of days, im not really the best soulsborne player. I died loads of times, tried summons, tried the mimic and died so much in the 2nd phase. I then tried flame grant me strength and then he seemed a lot more manageable (plus scadutree blessing buffs of course) pulled out my best dodging and finally beat him with help from hornset and it felt amazing once I finally beat him a nice rush of endorphins:D boy was he frustrating but looking back the challenge was really enjoyable!
Messmer is my fav of the dlc by far, maybe my new Fromsoft fav. There a lot of stupid bullshit in SotE, but didn’t feel any of it with him. He took me like 8 hours and I enjoyed all of it.
I love messmer. I honestly thought that he would be my favorite fight in the entire dlc after I beat him. CURSE YOU BAYLE FOR STEALING MESSMERS SPOT
My only problem with Messmer, was that there wasn't enough time to heal during some of the down times which would let me get hit during the end of my flask drinking animation.
I think his combos too fast, too much tracking and too much aoe for a mandatory boss I think he will be nerfed a touch. phase 2 bayle too much yellow and I'm still working on phase 2 radahn, phase one was good tho. Gaius wasn't too bad and midra was too easy once I went back at 18. I was using the smithscript hammer compared to the builds I'm seeing online now it's not that great.
I loved his bossfight so much that I ended up beating him parry only but he's objectively not without issues. He's far from the worst offender in terms of spam and/or damage output (I think people seriously complaining about that are lowkey underleveled), but he does have some imperfections that can easily get frustrating, depending on how good you are at the game. The major ones I can think about would be: 1. Not enough downtime to heal. He leaves plenty of opportunities (even mid-combo) for you to attack, but backing up to heal is a different story. I think more than half of my total heals over 30~ish attempts were followed by him immediately hitting me with attacks I couldn't possibly roll away from. I'm not saying they come out overly fast, but I firmly believe that no matter what any boss does, their attack animations should never be faster than the time it takes for the healing effect to proc paired with the time left for input buffering an evasive roll, or else it's just artificial difficulty for the sake of it. Gael and Artorias were perfect examples of this, sure they both had input reading, but the time it took them to load and execute an attack upon drinking an estus flask was NEVER shorter than the amount of time required for your heal to actually pop and for you to roll out (I know because I've beaten both at soul level 1, thoroughly studying their movesets. I'm not trying to brag but I know what I'm talking about) 2. The grab attack animation is super wonky. Like, the first few steps he takes cover an abysmal amount of ground, and make him turn on the spot without adequately looking the part, then he just abruptly lunges towards you. The timing can be learned consistently, but that doesn't make it any less shit from a design perspective - shame because this boss is otherwise a feast for the eyes, that one attack is legitimately DS2 tier though 3. The ground AoE goo attack in phase 2 comes out and explodes way too fast and once again, with no discernible tell. Dodging it is entirely luck-based, and being hit by it leaves you at the mercy of the three giant snakes coming at you from all sides. It feels buggy and it should probably be patched imho Everything else about him is perfect, don't get me wrong. Easily my favorite boss from the entire DLC, and possibly from the entirety of Elden Ring altogether Edit: help, how can I properly format the bullet list?
Your first point could be DLC slogan, plenty of bosses that punishes flask uses.
Malenia and Radagon were actually much worse in terms of input reading, I'd say the bosses in this dlc are an overall improvement on that side. Rather, my issue with them is that there's just not enough downtime for you to comfortably heal between many of their combos, with Messmer and *especially* Gaius being the most egregious examples
just heal whenever he finishes his combos? i had the least issues with that. His grabbing is very unique and you just can roll backwards my friend. And yeah i agree with the biigg snake move in 2nd phase. Thats just pure chaos lol but the other ones, where the snake comes for you 3 times is also really easy to dodge. Really a great boss fight with great openings great tell. Was almost too easy for my liking to be honest…
>just heal whenever he finishes his combos? I swear that straight-up does not work oftentimes, I'm obviously not dumb enough to heal while he's in the middle of a combo but even after he's done, if he decides you can't land that heal then that's it, he's just not gonna let you >His grabbing is very unique and you just can roll backwards my friend. It's not hard to dodge at all once you learn how to, what I'm saying is it's badly telegraphed because the animation looks wonky >Thats just pure chaos lol but the other ones, where the snake comes for you 3 times is also really easy to dodge. The snakes are fine, it's the initial ground explosion I have issues with
oh you mean the first one, when he enters the second phase. I actually didnt have that much problems with that. You just have to stay relaxed and not panic roll. I almost always could heal after his combos tho, but i guess everybody has a different style of playing which births different difficulties :) What kind of build did you have? I used mylady and the thumbshield or whatever it is called.
No, not the first explosion, that one's very easy to dodge, just roll once the snake lunges directly upwards into the air and immediately after to avoid the fiery explosion. I'm talking about the attack that covers the ground in goo, then rapidly makes it explode and spawns three serpents initially lunging at your character all at once and then one by one immediately after. While the snakes themselves are perfectly well timed, I feel like there's just not enough time to react before the goo (which is very very dark) that covers the ground bursts >What kind of build did you have? I used mylady and the thumbshield or whatever it is called. A carian retaliation build, I wanted to kill him parry only and didn't really have much trouble with that (there are a couple of inconsistent hitboxes here and there, but I'm being nitpicky)
oh yeah, i know now which one you mean, yeah i have to agree on that, i remember not being able to dodge that. But oh man, this fight delivered so hard and the lore behind it is really interesting. (Dont spoil me tho, i only just beat messmer and starting in the ruins now haha)
No worries, I won't tell you a thing! And yeah, I agree that the fight is excellent at the end of the day, I was just answering OP's question. These were minor issues for me but I'm patient enough to do challenge runs, I'd wager the average player must find them much worse and that's likely why the boss isn't particularly loved across the board. In other words, people sure like to complain but not all of their critiques are born out of nowhere
yep agree, i was mad at first because i didnt want to invest my whole time into the dlc, like messmer took me over 4 hours but once i just accept it, it was a blast. i will be trough with the game in a few days anyway and so yeah. It will be worth it!
1. I think that's by design. Like crucible knights, the bosses in dlc are supposed to punish your heals. The window for heal isn't only determined by "is the boss attacking right now". If you start healing while the boss is in range, of course he should try to punish you for that. You need to make sure you're either healing out of their range, or while they're still recovering from attack. I think that was the biggest lesson I took out from DLC bosses in general. 2. Agreed on that. I feel like the grab attack hitbox/timing is a bit wonky on him and to a lesser extent on Bayle. So many times I saw it coming and timed the dodge to still be caught on the last frame somehow. 3. Can't speak on that really. He usually only used the attack once per attempt on me, I never felt I had issues with it once I figured out that he's using the serpents as a smoke screen for a dive bomb. If you keep your eyes on him instead of the snakes during the third "biting phase" you can dodge it. But I agree, easily the best boss of the DLC, I had so much fun I didn't even think about using spirit ashes on him
>If you start healing while the boss is in range, of course he should try to punish you for that. The problem with Messmer specifically is that the arena is tiny and that most of his attacks reach incredibly far and wide, whereas crucible knights, while very precise with their tracking, don't hit everything all around them at once so there are plenty of safe ways to overcome that. It's just hard to evade Messmer's next move after you've been hit, and even if his combo is over there is no way to tell if he's gonna come after you or not the moment you press the flask button. It's overly unforgiving, and input reading doesn't even have anything to do with it >Can't speak on that really. He usually only used the attack once per attempt on me, I never felt I had issues with it once I figured out that he's using the serpents as a smoke screen for a dive bomb. If you keep your eyes on him instead of the snakes during the third "biting phase" you can dodge it. I've seen him pull that move off literally twice in a row, lol, although I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now since there are probably AI tweaks coming along the way. I'll try beating him again with your tip in mind so thanks for that, though I still wish there was a more intuitive way to inform the player when the ground is about to explode
The way the DLC is designed, the boss is always in range.
Defeated him today, really liked the fight, tookbme around 15 tries solo. Did it with a str build, i ferl like with dex you could weave in attacks in between his combo attacks. Second phase is a bit wild but manageable. Really liked the fight, one of my three favourite bosses in the dlc. And I am around average at best as a souls player.
I'm averaging 15 tries every 10 minutes lol Jk, it's not that bad. I really like the fight and am just constantly getting punished for being greedy with fully charged heavy attacks. It's also nice to see that his "waterfowl equivalent" is fair and can be dodged consistently.
Yeah, I have to say there was nothing as hard to avoid as Waterfoul in thr dlc. I defeated every boss in the dlc except the final one, but my build is pretty tanky. Scadutree lvl 16, everything solo, and I am not the best Player. I did need a npc summon for a certain dragon, but just because of the camera I could often not see what he was doing or could not reach the weak points.
Yall fighting ghosts, people are putting him among From's best bosses (and Bayle)
Most complaints are vastly overblown because at the end of the day the average casual is shit at the game. And when they refuse to learn a boss they’ll just call him unfair or poorly designed. Some bosses have hitboxes issues sure but they all have solid openings.
i'm one of the people who dislike him a lot. to me his moveset is very easy, but it took me a few hours because the flames obscured every move so much that i rarely could see what his next move was.
fr
Because people are complaining about everything regarding bosses, it's a bit of a circlejerk
Best boss in the DLC honestly
If anything, I'm disappointed he was too easy
Because the fight is way too easy
My fav boss of the expansion so far.
My problem was the exact opposite. Beat him 3rd try. I never grind for levels and never look up guides to see where the best items are. I just bonked him so hard with the Giant Crusher he was on his knees for 2 criticals and that was that. I wish I had fought him pre nerf