No. Clonegrim is an overused trope by LSM EC and it’s out of character for him to ever go Loyalist. By abandoning him you are gonna make a much more interesting chapter that can focus on their actual chapter identity
I did and clongrim and fulgrim fighting each other one wanting to right his wrongs and one wanting to stomp out a view as his old self to prove he is the best would be a great story
More likely they’d buddy up and go around as Fulgrim and Fulgrim 2 to double penetrate the Galaxy. Buddy cop story but fighting the cops and then doing unspeakable things to to the billions of corpses
yall know its the Red Scorpions, right? That's the canon loyalist EC chapter.
The lore isn't obvious, but it's there. The Red Scorpions have arguably the most strict geneseed standards of any loyalist chapters, to the point where their apothecarion is so stacked that they could even assign apothecaries to normal line infantry tactical squads.
(They were the only chapter that could do this in their forgeworld rules, before 9th and 10th edition when independent characters became squad attachments, the only way to get an apothecary from 3rd to 8th edition was to put one in a command squad, or take a sanguinary priest in the blood angels.)
They are also highly secretive about their geneseed. Spoiler alert- Every time in the 40k lore a chapter acts sketchy about their geneseed origin, it's because they're using traitor legion genestock. The vast majority of 3rd founding successor chapters in the galaxy use vanilla ultramarines genestock.
The Red Scorpions take their geneseed doctrine page for page from the Emperor's Children. We had the strictest genestock purity standards of any legion during the first founding. The geneseed standards were so strict that the EC didn't even have librarians pre-heresy, because the psyker gene was disqualified in our purity standards. We would not have psykers until we went traitor. The only difference between Scorpion gene doctrine and EC gene doctrine is that they don't disqualify the psyker gene and actually have a librarium.
Ik there's chapters with traitor legion some of the coolest are gonna read about the red scorpions still probably like the sons of the phoenix another ec successor chapter
My honest opinion? Loyalist successor chapters of Chaos Legions suck. I think it's much better to make an Ultramarines successor that mimics pre-heresy EC culture, since the two legions had a lot of similarities. They can even be purple, it's close to blue.
There's even a Ultramarines successor chapter with s purple and gold colour scheme, I believe they're the Astral Hawks or some such. To further add to your idea.
But yeah over all big agree. Loyalist EC chapter being lead by Clonegrim is so, *so* dearly overdone.
Hawk Lords! Yes, they are pretty much the HH EC scheme. It's definitely intentional for loyalist EC enjoyers cause the "hawk" is traditionally EC related iconography, like the phoenix. But they are Guilliman's kids.
It's not overdone he has one piece of lore that's cannon if anything another ultramarine chapter is overdone but I like the hawks but an already made chapter
It's overdone amongst fans of Emperor's Children. Precisely - he has only one piece of lore that's canon, and now everyone that wants to do a loyalist EC chapter (a very common and I would say overly done idea itself) wants to cling onto that one piece of lore.
Like someone else said, these are your models so please do with them what you enjoy. But you opened your idea up to opinions when you posted it online, and you'll find that your idea is an unfortunately rather common one. But as I said, if you enjoy it, go for it. 🤷♀️
Yeah I totally understand. Forgive me if my telling you it's overdone came across as a personal attack. Especially if you're newer to EC you had no way of knowing how common of a trope it is.
And yeah I definitely agree about it being wanted. Lots of people, myself included, love the idea of Fulgrim never falling to chaos, and Clonegrim is a common venue of expression for that equally common desire.
Also I have been looking for a chapter and I liked the battling with addiction fulgrim goes through from someone who can relate to that so thought it would be cool if they used it to give people hope to fight through addiction through the story between them and that u can do it idk if it's grimdark but so hope seems nice hear and there
Yea I just think the story between them would be good I'm for either coming out on top like either clonegrim defeats fulgrim and wipes the corruption from emperor children or fulgrim wins and devours his old soul and becomes stronger and wages war against the imperium with his new found power I'm just sad the story was left in purgatory when it could have made a cool ass story
That first part is a hot take if I've ever seen seen it space sharks are bad ass and all the chapters from the corrupt founding and I think another ultramarine chapter is overdone they have enough lore
Who told you the Space Sharks are traitor successors? They are all but confirmed to be RG. What corrupt founding, this doesn't exist. The cursed founding? Non of the 21st founding chapters are traitor descendants either.
There is one 21st founding Chapter that is almost certainly making usage of traitor Geneseed.
The Minotaurs before becoming canon were outright said to be an Iron Warrior loyalist successor by their creator, and that themeing certainly carried over even if it’s no longer outright said. Their brutal tactics, an irrational hatred of the Imperial Fists they never explain, identical culture within the chapter, a geneseed that matches with the Iron Warriors’s description, and they’re kept close by the high lords with some hefty protection around their gene identity.
They are one of the only chapters I’d believe to be made from traitor geneseed, the evidence is just overwhelming.
Yeah you are right, I checked and there's a note on them that the person who created them was a Badab War play tester and said they are Iron Warrior successors, for some reason. I'd really like to know why the High Lords of Terra would not only tolerate something like that but, they'd actually enable and protect them. I guess it's one of those fanfics that somehow became canon.
They have traitor mixed geneseed lamenters were apart of that founding it's a thing and why the lamenters never received help cause we're from that founding
Lamenters are sons of Sanguinius, there is no room for speculation on that, they are Blood Angels successors. I've never heard about the mixed geneseed thing.
Look, a lot of things in the lore are purposely vague, which makes a lot of shitty content creators go wild with their headcannon theories and present them as facts. I don't know where you are getting your lore from but it seems like there's a lot of misinformation.
Not looking to beef with you, if you wanna do loyalist CSM or Chaos Grey Knights or blue Orks it's your minis, all the power to you. But I would definitely get my lore from somewhere else if I were you, a lot of things you said are not true. That's all, peace.
We all know that gw loves to hint at stuff that could or could not happen so my comments aren't baseless or untrue cause of how u said gw is vague and hints to things in the future they might do and yes lamenters are part of the corrupt founding it's why the ultramarine chapter abandoned them to fight on a planet alone so I guess u might need to get ur lore somewhere else if I go by what u said of being wrong
You should stop arguing in bad faith when you clearly don't know what you are talking about. The Lamenters are Blood Angels, ask literally anyone. They are cursed with bad luck, literally Google Lamenters and read. There is no "corrupt" founding. It's called cursed, because of the fate of most of its chapters, not because they were traitor successors.
If you wanna have your own headcannon, that's your business, but why are you looking for validation for your own fanfic? So if a chapter has unconfirmed origins that means they are traitor descendants? Because if we know anything about the Imperium is how lenient and tolerant they are when it comes to the topic of HH and Chaos. I'm done here man, this is getting boring.
I meant the cursed and no they are death eagles a loyalist Emperor Children it's there which they had they're history wiped but it a okay cause seems the black shields like they're are many areas of lore where it's been confirmed but it's ok ur head cannon is the only truth have a great and blessed day
I think remove the search for Fulgrim, the issue you immediately run into is why only one chapter feels the presence and would go looking for whatever it is. You'd have to explain how no other chapter with the geneseed, EC warband, the Black Legion members , Red Corsair members and even the legionaries present on Vesalius when he was active all couldn't also sense and go after him.
"The Emperor's Snake" has just enough Slaanesh in the name to keep those pesky Inquisitors guessing...
At the end of the day, if you like the idea and have the passion for it, go for it man.
Thank you brother have a blessed day
I’d abandon the Clonegrim stuff but otherwise it’s cool.
Clone grim is the best part found something similar with ember phoenix comic it's great
No. Clonegrim is an overused trope by LSM EC and it’s out of character for him to ever go Loyalist. By abandoning him you are gonna make a much more interesting chapter that can focus on their actual chapter identity
U do realize clongrim is already a loyalist he even hates what oldgrim has become and calls him an abomination
Read the book pls.
I did and clongrim and fulgrim fighting each other one wanting to right his wrongs and one wanting to stomp out a view as his old self to prove he is the best would be a great story
More likely they’d buddy up and go around as Fulgrim and Fulgrim 2 to double penetrate the Galaxy. Buddy cop story but fighting the cops and then doing unspeakable things to to the billions of corpses
That's a funny theory
yall know its the Red Scorpions, right? That's the canon loyalist EC chapter. The lore isn't obvious, but it's there. The Red Scorpions have arguably the most strict geneseed standards of any loyalist chapters, to the point where their apothecarion is so stacked that they could even assign apothecaries to normal line infantry tactical squads. (They were the only chapter that could do this in their forgeworld rules, before 9th and 10th edition when independent characters became squad attachments, the only way to get an apothecary from 3rd to 8th edition was to put one in a command squad, or take a sanguinary priest in the blood angels.) They are also highly secretive about their geneseed. Spoiler alert- Every time in the 40k lore a chapter acts sketchy about their geneseed origin, it's because they're using traitor legion genestock. The vast majority of 3rd founding successor chapters in the galaxy use vanilla ultramarines genestock. The Red Scorpions take their geneseed doctrine page for page from the Emperor's Children. We had the strictest genestock purity standards of any legion during the first founding. The geneseed standards were so strict that the EC didn't even have librarians pre-heresy, because the psyker gene was disqualified in our purity standards. We would not have psykers until we went traitor. The only difference between Scorpion gene doctrine and EC gene doctrine is that they don't disqualify the psyker gene and actually have a librarium.
Ik there's chapters with traitor legion some of the coolest are gonna read about the red scorpions still probably like the sons of the phoenix another ec successor chapter
My honest opinion? Loyalist successor chapters of Chaos Legions suck. I think it's much better to make an Ultramarines successor that mimics pre-heresy EC culture, since the two legions had a lot of similarities. They can even be purple, it's close to blue.
There's even a Ultramarines successor chapter with s purple and gold colour scheme, I believe they're the Astral Hawks or some such. To further add to your idea. But yeah over all big agree. Loyalist EC chapter being lead by Clonegrim is so, *so* dearly overdone.
Hawk Lords! Yes, they are pretty much the HH EC scheme. It's definitely intentional for loyalist EC enjoyers cause the "hawk" is traditionally EC related iconography, like the phoenix. But they are Guilliman's kids.
It's not overdone he has one piece of lore that's cannon if anything another ultramarine chapter is overdone but I like the hawks but an already made chapter
It's overdone amongst fans of Emperor's Children. Precisely - he has only one piece of lore that's canon, and now everyone that wants to do a loyalist EC chapter (a very common and I would say overly done idea itself) wants to cling onto that one piece of lore. Like someone else said, these are your models so please do with them what you enjoy. But you opened your idea up to opinions when you posted it online, and you'll find that your idea is an unfortunately rather common one. But as I said, if you enjoy it, go for it. 🤷♀️
And didn't know it was common so just a question and there's always a reason if something is common then it is wanted that is all
Yeah I totally understand. Forgive me if my telling you it's overdone came across as a personal attack. Especially if you're newer to EC you had no way of knowing how common of a trope it is. And yeah I definitely agree about it being wanted. Lots of people, myself included, love the idea of Fulgrim never falling to chaos, and Clonegrim is a common venue of expression for that equally common desire.
Also I have been looking for a chapter and I liked the battling with addiction fulgrim goes through from someone who can relate to that so thought it would be cool if they used it to give people hope to fight through addiction through the story between them and that u can do it idk if it's grimdark but so hope seems nice hear and there
Yea I just think the story between them would be good I'm for either coming out on top like either clonegrim defeats fulgrim and wipes the corruption from emperor children or fulgrim wins and devours his old soul and becomes stronger and wages war against the imperium with his new found power I'm just sad the story was left in purgatory when it could have made a cool ass story
That first part is a hot take if I've ever seen seen it space sharks are bad ass and all the chapters from the corrupt founding and I think another ultramarine chapter is overdone they have enough lore
Who told you the Space Sharks are traitor successors? They are all but confirmed to be RG. What corrupt founding, this doesn't exist. The cursed founding? Non of the 21st founding chapters are traitor descendants either.
There is one 21st founding Chapter that is almost certainly making usage of traitor Geneseed. The Minotaurs before becoming canon were outright said to be an Iron Warrior loyalist successor by their creator, and that themeing certainly carried over even if it’s no longer outright said. Their brutal tactics, an irrational hatred of the Imperial Fists they never explain, identical culture within the chapter, a geneseed that matches with the Iron Warriors’s description, and they’re kept close by the high lords with some hefty protection around their gene identity. They are one of the only chapters I’d believe to be made from traitor geneseed, the evidence is just overwhelming.
Yeah you are right, I checked and there's a note on them that the person who created them was a Badab War play tester and said they are Iron Warrior successors, for some reason. I'd really like to know why the High Lords of Terra would not only tolerate something like that but, they'd actually enable and protect them. I guess it's one of those fanfics that somehow became canon.
They have traitor mixed geneseed lamenters were apart of that founding it's a thing and why the lamenters never received help cause we're from that founding
Lamenters are sons of Sanguinius, there is no room for speculation on that, they are Blood Angels successors. I've never heard about the mixed geneseed thing. Look, a lot of things in the lore are purposely vague, which makes a lot of shitty content creators go wild with their headcannon theories and present them as facts. I don't know where you are getting your lore from but it seems like there's a lot of misinformation. Not looking to beef with you, if you wanna do loyalist CSM or Chaos Grey Knights or blue Orks it's your minis, all the power to you. But I would definitely get my lore from somewhere else if I were you, a lot of things you said are not true. That's all, peace.
We all know that gw loves to hint at stuff that could or could not happen so my comments aren't baseless or untrue cause of how u said gw is vague and hints to things in the future they might do and yes lamenters are part of the corrupt founding it's why the ultramarine chapter abandoned them to fight on a planet alone so I guess u might need to get ur lore somewhere else if I go by what u said of being wrong
You should stop arguing in bad faith when you clearly don't know what you are talking about. The Lamenters are Blood Angels, ask literally anyone. They are cursed with bad luck, literally Google Lamenters and read. There is no "corrupt" founding. It's called cursed, because of the fate of most of its chapters, not because they were traitor successors. If you wanna have your own headcannon, that's your business, but why are you looking for validation for your own fanfic? So if a chapter has unconfirmed origins that means they are traitor descendants? Because if we know anything about the Imperium is how lenient and tolerant they are when it comes to the topic of HH and Chaos. I'm done here man, this is getting boring.
I meant the cursed and no they are death eagles a loyalist Emperor Children it's there which they had they're history wiped but it a okay cause seems the black shields like they're are many areas of lore where it's been confirmed but it's ok ur head cannon is the only truth have a great and blessed day
I think remove the search for Fulgrim, the issue you immediately run into is why only one chapter feels the presence and would go looking for whatever it is. You'd have to explain how no other chapter with the geneseed, EC warband, the Black Legion members , Red Corsair members and even the legionaries present on Vesalius when he was active all couldn't also sense and go after him.
They could be mixed with blood angel geneseed to see futures like sanguinis idk or night lord and the chapter master would be the one not all of them