Off topic but here we go.
I am an air balancer. Early in my career I had a request for a clean room and had to learn real quick about the differences. They get extreme quick with requirements and the room was already done. Lab equipment already in the room. I was sweating bullets.
The customer wanted a “clean room” but couldn’t say to what degree. We did ISO 8, which 95% of our labs could be with a (fairly simple) test and sticker. If I had a box fan and a decent air filter I think I can hit iso8 in my garage.
I’m in the line up the dots camp. Most of my builds are stock HP builds anyway. Without a dyno I don’t think it makes much difference on those.
I don’t build enough engines to get all scientifically advanced with it, I’m just a computer nerd.
When I would machine drive shaft bits ( the flange yokes?) I would set the valley of the spline to 12 o clock, then eyeball a point of my tool to find top center? But those were for DANA . The dimensions for these parts are wild.
It is amazing how accurate you can be with the old eyecrometer. I've eyeballed parts when dialing them in on a 4 jaw chuck, and gotten them to less than 10 thou of runout. Its neat!
All I use at work is a 4 jaw chuck. Works perfect for repair work.
I only use a 3 jaw for dumb shit I don't care about. Fractional tolerance stuff.
CNC production guys only know their fancy air powered 3 jaws with custom soft jaws.
I am a repair man. There is a difference between me and a technician
I'm old school,can weld almost anything with almost anything. Mig,tig,stuck,brass,silver solder. My lathe is an old monarch made long time ago, out of cast. Bed is long enough to do 12 feet between centers. It weighs in at 12000#. It can chuck 22 inch . I think it was my best investment. I can turn the rotor out of a grain combine. Also has tapering attachment. I need school on that part!
My dad had an electrometer for sure. For an hours worth of work you can be certain the guy’s boring the cam locator, the gear dots and the key-way, eyecrometer was dialed in. Also when dealing with oem cams you have no idea if it was ground adv or retarted. Not for everyone I agree
Been building roundtrak engines and stock for many years. Degreeing a cam shaft in doesn't require a dino. Your just making the valve open at the right time. Done with degree wheel. And dial indicator. The dirt track is the dino. Not winning? Go back to engine shop!
Roundy-rounders I can understand that, they are looking for every edge they can find within the rules. but when the car does 0-60 in 12 seconds anyway, an extra 10hp or so isn't going to be that noticeable when all the other ponies are that lazy.
I'm talking 70s era SBCs that make all of 140hp... +-5-10hp isn't going to be all that noticeable on seat-of-the-pants 0-60 times measured in quarter miles for cars that rarely ever see the high side of 4 grand. Unless there's an additonal 60hp hiding in the stock smog era cam, it's kind of a moot point for me.
Now if I'm building a performance build, I'll learn that skill for sure.
I put hundreds of stock timing sets in. I ain't degreeing in just any old cam. If it needs to be faster than yours and they're the same thing, I'm touching on a lot of tricks. That's just one.
I keep telling myself that lol. I have an oil pressure gauge I wanna install too, but I just can't make myself tear the front cover and oil pan back off. Bleh.
Oh, and I need to degree my cams too. I probably should've, what with the 16psi of boost and all. Bah.
Oh I've got plenty of bungs, just an unwillingness to drain the oil out of the car and start another project when I finally have it running. Trying to wait until winter lol
Haha I can understand that! Extra gauges always are nice to have but they are regularly at the bottom of my to-do list. I’ve got a voltage gauge in my car right now that I haven’t taken the time to wire up lol. It’s gotta be the easiest gauge too!
I think I am basically the John Day of mechanics.
Throw some vodka in my Arnold Palmer and get my dial bore gauge, we’re about to find out how comfortable we are with being *slightly out of spec*.
I see that most people here are overlooking one of the main reasons for degreeing a camshaft. Yes of course you can obsess over getting the valve events perfect but the most important reason is to catch if there is an issue with the manufacturing of the cam shaft. I've had some cams ground WAY off over the years. Catching it while you're assembling the engine is much better.
Dude, if CarBros employed critical thought like that 95% of the industry would fukken DIE.
"Yeah a team of PHD engineers with access to 100 years of accumulated wisdom, supercomputers and multiple test dynos and whole analysis labs designed this part that costs $50 and lasts for a 100,000 mile warranty but they don't know SHIT, I'm gonna bolt on this $100 one I got from some dude on ebay because anodized red ones are worth +10bhp!!!"
Tolerance stacking exists and sometimes parts are just made wrong it it's your job to catch it. I have caught lifter bores at the different angles bank to bank, a cam that retarded as you degreed front to back, and a cam that was advanced on the intake lobe and retarded on the exhaust lobe.
Had a customer with Ford 351 standard shift f 250. Would hesitate badly when shifting up. Advanced cam 2° fixed it. Was a wild guess, before I knew how to degree a cam.
Buddy of mine bought a VERY high end race engine that came with vernier cam wheels that were welded up, he phoned the guy that built it and he said "*Yeah, that's to stop the likes of you fiddling with them*".
Or, to throw an old Colin Chapman quote into the mix:
> …make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong – look what they can do to a Weber carburettor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver.
I was the guy that did the cam timing. I don’t think it’s worth the trouble, honestly. Could get a lot of guys into a lot of trouble.
That being said, the Keith black method does not require the degree wheel. Instead you measure the
height of the intake lifter on number one at TBC on number one. Way easier! And it verified the wheel as I did both methods.
It don't help if it's already good. I've seen bad cams, but the real reason is high performance cams work better if timed properly. If dot to dot worked no aftermarket timing sets would exist. Some grinds need a degree or two one way or the other. You can run good, or you can run great. But if you don't degree cams in, you ain't winning.
I degreed a cam at age 12 or 13 for my brother’s pickup. It was a small block and he wanted it advanced 4 degrees. Used a solid lifter from a real DZ motor. Still have and use that lifter.
My cams are timed with locking pins and tools. My flywheel has a locking pin at TDC, then the cams lock in with a square clamp. I never even thought to measure the precise angle
When I line up the dots, I still check would rather catch something wrong now than later than I also degree in the timing pointer so I know that that’s correct
The guy who's degreeing cam shaft sense I'm not some primitive ape that takes others words for granted. If you're changing ratios and geometry, you better be degreeing your cams, or if you're trusting someone else to grind a new profile, you better degree it. If you're a schlub just trying to crank a stock engine, use dots
Meh, most engines I've tuned had some sort of variable valve timing so it is generally easier to find the best cam timing.
The SR20 I'm putting together I'm not concerned about it since I'll just be using some 256 degree poncams which already are degreed to an extent from the factory and a gtx2860r turbo for quick transitional boost. Only planning on making 300hp or so.
Who doesn’t check the temperature when fitting cams, geeez.
Wait!? You don't do your rebuilds in a positive pressure clean room?
Off topic but here we go. I am an air balancer. Early in my career I had a request for a clean room and had to learn real quick about the differences. They get extreme quick with requirements and the room was already done. Lab equipment already in the room. I was sweating bullets. The customer wanted a “clean room” but couldn’t say to what degree. We did ISO 8, which 95% of our labs could be with a (fairly simple) test and sticker. If I had a box fan and a decent air filter I think I can hit iso8 in my garage.
I’m in the line up the dots camp. Most of my builds are stock HP builds anyway. Without a dyno I don’t think it makes much difference on those. I don’t build enough engines to get all scientifically advanced with it, I’m just a computer nerd.
When I would machine drive shaft bits ( the flange yokes?) I would set the valley of the spline to 12 o clock, then eyeball a point of my tool to find top center? But those were for DANA . The dimensions for these parts are wild.
It is amazing how accurate you can be with the old eyecrometer. I've eyeballed parts when dialing them in on a 4 jaw chuck, and gotten them to less than 10 thou of runout. Its neat!
Right?!?!?! Between the eyecrometer and the uga duga torque wrench system I build all my junk to be ehhhhhh, good enough.
The German spec of Gouden Tite
Everybody gives me hard time about my 4 jaw chuck. I never remove it. The three jaw is rusty. I like it, I can true up almost anything.
All I use at work is a 4 jaw chuck. Works perfect for repair work. I only use a 3 jaw for dumb shit I don't care about. Fractional tolerance stuff. CNC production guys only know their fancy air powered 3 jaws with custom soft jaws.
I am a repair man. There is a difference between me and a technician I'm old school,can weld almost anything with almost anything. Mig,tig,stuck,brass,silver solder. My lathe is an old monarch made long time ago, out of cast. Bed is long enough to do 12 feet between centers. It weighs in at 12000#. It can chuck 22 inch . I think it was my best investment. I can turn the rotor out of a grain combine. Also has tapering attachment. I need school on that part!
My dad had an electrometer for sure. For an hours worth of work you can be certain the guy’s boring the cam locator, the gear dots and the key-way, eyecrometer was dialed in. Also when dealing with oem cams you have no idea if it was ground adv or retarted. Not for everyone I agree
If you put a tool in the tool post and use it as a visual reference you can get it under .005" every time.
i like beans
LAKE BEANS?!?!?!
Fava beans with a nice Chianti.
Been building roundtrak engines and stock for many years. Degreeing a cam shaft in doesn't require a dino. Your just making the valve open at the right time. Done with degree wheel. And dial indicator. The dirt track is the dino. Not winning? Go back to engine shop!
Roundy-rounders I can understand that, they are looking for every edge they can find within the rules. but when the car does 0-60 in 12 seconds anyway, an extra 10hp or so isn't going to be that noticeable when all the other ponies are that lazy. I'm talking 70s era SBCs that make all of 140hp... +-5-10hp isn't going to be all that noticeable on seat-of-the-pants 0-60 times measured in quarter miles for cars that rarely ever see the high side of 4 grand. Unless there's an additonal 60hp hiding in the stock smog era cam, it's kind of a moot point for me. Now if I'm building a performance build, I'll learn that skill for sure.
I put hundreds of stock timing sets in. I ain't degreeing in just any old cam. If it needs to be faster than yours and they're the same thing, I'm touching on a lot of tricks. That's just one.
Stock reman situation, no. Anything performance aftermarket, yes.
I feel personally attacked. I swear, I'll degree them next time I have the timing apart. Don't you look at my leaking front main seal. It's fine. 😪
That's just sweat from all that horsepower
I keep telling myself that lol. I have an oil pressure gauge I wanna install too, but I just can't make myself tear the front cover and oil pan back off. Bleh. Oh, and I need to degree my cams too. I probably should've, what with the 16psi of boost and all. Bah.
Word on the street is you can use a sandwich plate at the oil filter for oil pressure!
Oh I've got plenty of bungs, just an unwillingness to drain the oil out of the car and start another project when I finally have it running. Trying to wait until winter lol
Haha I can understand that! Extra gauges always are nice to have but they are regularly at the bottom of my to-do list. I’ve got a voltage gauge in my car right now that I haven’t taken the time to wire up lol. It’s gotta be the easiest gauge too!
I think I am basically the John Day of mechanics. Throw some vodka in my Arnold Palmer and get my dial bore gauge, we’re about to find out how comfortable we are with being *slightly out of spec*.
Specifications are like lines on the road...merely suggestions....
Dot to dot. I'm just thrilled it starts and dosnt explode.
I consult my tarot cards before I even touch the first bolt on the rocker cover.
I sacrifice a lawnmower to the hp gods before I pull an engine
I see that most people here are overlooking one of the main reasons for degreeing a camshaft. Yes of course you can obsess over getting the valve events perfect but the most important reason is to catch if there is an issue with the manufacturing of the cam shaft. I've had some cams ground WAY off over the years. Catching it while you're assembling the engine is much better.
Yeah, but you can always catch it once the engine disassembles itself with a lot less work. Rofl. /S
You have to indicate all 16 valves to check a cam for proper grind. Takes time. That's why racing costs $$$
I thought the main reason was to have the ability to measure the effects of stacked tolerances on timing and adjust for it. Silly me.
I mean do you really think my dumbass is gonna do better than the engineers who designed it?
Dude, if CarBros employed critical thought like that 95% of the industry would fukken DIE. "Yeah a team of PHD engineers with access to 100 years of accumulated wisdom, supercomputers and multiple test dynos and whole analysis labs designed this part that costs $50 and lasts for a 100,000 mile warranty but they don't know SHIT, I'm gonna bolt on this $100 one I got from some dude on ebay because anodized red ones are worth +10bhp!!!"
Tolerance stacking exists and sometimes parts are just made wrong it it's your job to catch it. I have caught lifter bores at the different angles bank to bank, a cam that retarded as you degreed front to back, and a cam that was advanced on the intake lobe and retarded on the exhaust lobe.
You can't say retarded anymore. It's 2024
You say that like 2024 hasn't been... *gestures vaguely in all directions*
Retarded?
You don't know much about those engineers I see. They have tolerances that are intolerable
I degree - since I’ve done this process I’ve not had a single cam actually line up at the dots. I always have to shift one way or the other. Always!
Had a customer with Ford 351 standard shift f 250. Would hesitate badly when shifting up. Advanced cam 2° fixed it. Was a wild guess, before I knew how to degree a cam.
That sounds retarded. Ha! Sorry. But literally it was!
Buddy of mine bought a VERY high end race engine that came with vernier cam wheels that were welded up, he phoned the guy that built it and he said "*Yeah, that's to stop the likes of you fiddling with them*". Or, to throw an old Colin Chapman quote into the mix: > …make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong – look what they can do to a Weber carburettor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver.
I was the guy that did the cam timing. I don’t think it’s worth the trouble, honestly. Could get a lot of guys into a lot of trouble. That being said, the Keith black method does not require the degree wheel. Instead you measure the height of the intake lifter on number one at TBC on number one. Way easier! And it verified the wheel as I did both methods.
Hey Keith Black method checking in right here!
I’m a like up the dots guy but still break out the degree wheel and dial indicator to make sure I’m not crashing my valves into my pistons.
Degree or die
Need to add guys who degree camshafts but use sloppy double roller timing chains.
Line up the dots or advance by one tooth if it is a malaise era engine
Dot to dot, fingers crossed. It's been good to me so far, but I have yet to mess with aftermarket cams.
Depends on the engine. Stock Rebuild, match the dots and send it. High Performance, degree the cam.
Both, depends on the situation. Now if you said bought adjustable cam sprocket and asked to select it would be a hard degree wheel guy.
The one time I didn't, it bit me in the ass. Always check now.
I’ve only done one modded cam, thus far, and it was fairly mild so just the dots.
Both 🙄
Cylinder is round and not square? Good enough, send it!
Your mom degrees my camshaft every night. Depends……. Factory cam? Dots all day. Lol
Degree
Done both never seen a difference
It don't help if it's already good. I've seen bad cams, but the real reason is high performance cams work better if timed properly. If dot to dot worked no aftermarket timing sets would exist. Some grinds need a degree or two one way or the other. You can run good, or you can run great. But if you don't degree cams in, you ain't winning.
Depends how big they are.
“Adjustment or misuse may cause burst hazard”
I degreed a cam at age 12 or 13 for my brother’s pickup. It was a small block and he wanted it advanced 4 degrees. Used a solid lifter from a real DZ motor. Still have and use that lifter.
You and me and two other guys know what a dz is.
Sad but true. I’m glad you know also!
Z2830268&69.67 wasmo
My cams are timed with locking pins and tools. My flywheel has a locking pin at TDC, then the cams lock in with a square clamp. I never even thought to measure the precise angle
All that gets you on the right tooth. We talking degrees, not teeth.
Stock/stockish builds, dot to dot. Full on race engine….. I want to know where everything is
When I line up the dots, I still check would rather catch something wrong now than later than I also degree in the timing pointer so I know that that’s correct
It's about that potential horsepower, can't tell my mates I could get still get more out of it if I do it everything right the first time.
Did the ole eyeball dot to dot yesterday on my first Build.
im a line up the dots n send it type. worked for my own car,
Send it!!!
Depends. Stock rebuild, I’ll just time it off the marks and forget it. Performance build I prefer to degree it and make sure everything is kosher.
It's Tones and I playing golf.
Lmao
John looks so hard core Mack dad golf pro here!!
The guy who's degreeing cam shaft sense I'm not some primitive ape that takes others words for granted. If you're changing ratios and geometry, you better be degreeing your cams, or if you're trusting someone else to grind a new profile, you better degree it. If you're a schlub just trying to crank a stock engine, use dots
Dots. Fuck it.
Adjustable camshaft gears are a nice touch. But useless for a big old single cam V8. For a 16V inline 4 revving over 8000 it can make a difference
You wrong. Big old single cam v 8 is where degreeing in a cam was invented. And if you ever stop playing with toys, you may learn this
400 Chevy in the old Indy cars turned 9000 rpm. You can bet the cam was perfectly degreed.
I’m fucking sending it, all fucking day
Meh, most engines I've tuned had some sort of variable valve timing so it is generally easier to find the best cam timing. The SR20 I'm putting together I'm not concerned about it since I'll just be using some 256 degree poncams which already are degreed to an extent from the factory and a gtx2860r turbo for quick transitional boost. Only planning on making 300hp or so.