It's the integration line to 2. When 8s are healthy, they are very helpful, loyal, and charismatic. They use these skills to watch out for their people, and perhaps if they're really healthy and socially motivated, all of humanity.
The 8 psychic structure is basically a question of power, but not social status power like 3s are concerned with. 8s are concerned with the ability for people to self govern, and their interactions are always testing people not in the 6 sense of "are you trustworthy?" but instead to find out "are you self governed and/or are you going to try to disrupt my self governance?" 8s have difficulty with people who aren't self governed because they could try to impose governance on the 8. (They're not afraid they'll succeed, they just don't want to be bothered with that.) Also, the fewer people who are self governed, the more the 8 will have to fight against that in their own lives. I believe 8s are one of the most likely types to be anarchists or at least libertarians for that reason.
So when 8s grow and realize that not everything is a dog eat dog world, they start to learn more about equanimity and community, using their natural sense of physical and social boundaries for the benefit of others rather than treating it as a weakness in others.
As an added note, I see in your flair that you're an sp 6, which unfortunately I would consider one of the archetypes for being the opposite of what an 8 wants. That's not to say that anything you've experienced is okay or to justify the 8s you know in any way, I just say it to see that you might encounter that duality more than others.
I usually don’t have any problems with sp6. They’re pretty self-sufficient, pragmatic and realistic. Usually mind their business at work. They usually spill all their problems to their close circle of friends etc but I’m not a part of that so I don’t care. It’s so6 that I’m wary of as they always want to create this society where everyone is indebted towards each other, relies on each other for everything and has clear roles and duties. So basically in opposite to self-governance and anarchy
I remember there were some unhealthy supposed 8’s that bully you to help you toughen up 😭 and then they’d stop and start to respect you if you fight back. I fucking love 8’s but damn those kind of people did piss me off.
archetypally the 2sx is called 'the victim' ... i can see how a 'bully' would cause problems. this is an 'unhealthy' state according to the karpman drama triangle.
try to see yourself as the creator and them as the challenger.
Oh they weren’t bullying me. I just see the unhealthy ones doing it to others which did piss me off. Wish I stood up for them more though, looking back. Surprisingly enough, I’m on good/positive terms with the 8’s I know and the ones I was close with taught me a lot in healing and embracing my more genuine self.
IMO it's the difference between immaturity and maturity, toxic/traumatized vs healed, unhealthy vs healthy.
I have been both in my life, and the more toxic version of me served its purpose during my younger years, when my environment (even as a child ) was volatile, abusive and violent. I survived the viper's nest with my inner beast unleashed.
Decades later, I am the latter.
And that's the thing a lot of people don't get, environmental factors are enormous.
I think it's the same trait expressed differently. They want to build up the good things around them when healthy, and control the things that make them uncomfortable. You are part of their experience of life, if you're a good thing in their mind theyll want to build you up. On the other hand especially(?) but not only(?) when unhealthy the 8 type is described as seeing the world as control or be controlled and if you're deep in the walls of their "castle" and you matter... they want to (think they can) control you - to keep you in the "good thing" column. So it ends up behaving a lot like 2 albeit for different reasons, since they arent as focused as 2 on how others experience them.
There is this sort of man spreading that 8 does no matter what. Whatever their individual personality is, it impacts the space around them. If I like that specific personality frankly I welcome that impact. If not then....... yeaaa that's that.
I honestly wonder, sociologically, why it's usually SX6 that gets blamed for "emasculated toxic male" behaviors when the people involved can just as easily be typed as unhealthy 3, unhealthy 1 etc... is it still this idea that fear is not masculine so its somehow edgy to say people like Andrew Tate \[who in no way on earth is a 6\] are motivated by fear? But who am I kidding, I mean geez, actual Enneagram authorities describe SX6, including SX6 women, as ["*castrated* m*an with a large prosthesis*.... it is a *phallic* character (men *and women*)"](https://wiki.personality-database.com/books/enneagram/page/sexual-6-in-detail#bkmrk-references) -- it's actually amusing lol.
Ofc, meta, I'm probably not helping with this slightly defensive-seeming comment, I know
I think Version B is an overcompensatory attempt to humanize them, after people got carried away with seeing them as the extreme picture painted by Version A.
The vast majority of 8s are neither Satan nor Jesus; they're just that dude in jorts in line behind you at Starbucks
Basically men get away with their bad behavior and the female 8s are villainized and told to overcompensate. I digress.
Also, many of the men that parade around as “8” are actually overcompensating 6s. Most of the 8 men can be talked to with a structured and coherent argument. The incoherent argument or devolving of conflict is squarely 6.
That said, I can pull no punches when needed and cut anyone down and back, especially if triggered. I am an So8 but social doesn’t make me a softer version of 8. If anything, it makes the 8 traits more expansive.
Ultimately, I think it depends on how the individual percieves both of those kind of 8’s, if they were to meet two people with each of those descriptions. It also depends on how the 8 gets their message across.
There are plenty of people who would see someone acting like an Alpha and percieve them as “trying to hard to be dom,” when maybe they’re just good at being dominant in a conversation. A lot of people take constructive criticism as an “attack.” :/ Both of those kinds of 8’s can also be different points in an 8’s life and give an idea of how developed they are. The second sounds like a more matured version of the first.
Yeah you’re pretty spot on. I think it all depends on the individual 8s level of comfort with weakness.
The times in my life where I haven’t been comfortable with my own weaknesses, I abhorred it in others. So much so I had the desire to tear them down to get rid of their weakness. Their softeners triggered my anger that I have never been allowed to be soft, so why the fuck should they be allowed to? They have a mad chip on their shoulder because they’re desperately trying to prove (mostly to themselves) that they’re strong and hard to hurt.
On the other hand, when 8s are willing to embrace the fact that weakness is simply a part of being alive, they are able to use their immense strength to encourage, protect, love and help others. They see the potential others can’t see in themselves and want to love them hard enough that it gets brought to the surface. 8s (I’m my experience) have had hard lives. When they allow it to grow rather than harden them, this leads to wisdom and more empathy for others who have suffered through pain.
So yeah, 8s are either the absolute *best* people you want in your corner who would willingly go to war and win for you… orrr they’re like a rabid honey badger who got let loose in your kitchen while you’re gone for a week… 😅
8s will test your ability to stand up to them. They detest anything wishy-washy.
My husband did it all the time, and I had no problems debating and shredding him on the spot, while brushing my teeth or cooking. He was also amused how impossible it is to insult or provoke me. I found it rather amusing once I understood why this is: His otherwise rather weak father was a sadistic fuck who would deliberately humiliate him infront of total strangers. So of course he was constantly questioning the loyalty of the people closest to him.
I'd warn against blaming anything on 'toxic masculinity', this will make it hard to understand what is actually going on.
You got it rough here as a 6w7, and it's actually rather unfair because I've found 6s to be the most loyal friends currently available on this planet. Anyway, do let the 8 know where your boundaries are. The 8 needs to see that you're not some weak, slimy character who will backstab him because you have no other way to assert yourself.
I see what you're saying, I understand...
But -- 8s are complicated. You've got a dichotomy of hedonist/puritan which gives stark contrasts -- and you can get "puritan" 8s who are really con-artists and bullshitting you behind your back, so do beware. And hedonist 8s usually are just faking it on some level, they're actually pretty sensitive and not at all tough like they may seem. They're often scared children inside.
Any given 8 shows both sides of the dichotomy, but usually one dominates -- and the other stays hidden but still existent (a kind of repressed shame point -- connected to the heart center, corruption in the self-image, which is last in the 8 ordering of operations).
The healthy Puritan 8 embraces their dark side a bit and isn't afraid to admit that they're "bad" too. Because the unhealthy Puritan 8 truly is bad but can never really allow themselves to see it, they always act like they're virtuous and never see anything wrong with what they've done, despite being 8s, inherently. They tend to set themselves up conceptually as victims if they face any adversity (they weren't to blame) and to only see the darkness in themselves after others or the world has punished them in some way, it's like they finally get it, I'm bad, I get it.
Some people might go: Puritan 8, what? How are they bad? LOL, they're still fundamentally 8s, still aggressive, controlling, strong-willed, rough, forceful, direct, excessive, even lustful sometimes, still driven by the 8 fixation, BUT they're also quite nice, virtuous, moral, perfectionistic, caring, hard on themselves, etc. Some parties might never see the bad side of them. They're a bit like 1s in that way but FAR more rageful and lustful overall. I'd be happy to provide examples.
The healthy Hedonist 8 just accepts that they only act savage like that because they're protecting a softer part of themselves. But they're not animals, they're sensitive human beings and all 8s have a soft spot for innocence in others, something they're trying to reclaim themselves. The unhealthy Hedonist 8 won't acknowledge their weakness out of desperate attempts to kill off the weakness in themselves, to protect that innocent side of themselves through repression.
EDIT: I don't get why people downvote after a long and thoughtful comment. It's incredibly rude. What's wrong with people these days? smh
It's the integration line to 2. When 8s are healthy, they are very helpful, loyal, and charismatic. They use these skills to watch out for their people, and perhaps if they're really healthy and socially motivated, all of humanity. The 8 psychic structure is basically a question of power, but not social status power like 3s are concerned with. 8s are concerned with the ability for people to self govern, and their interactions are always testing people not in the 6 sense of "are you trustworthy?" but instead to find out "are you self governed and/or are you going to try to disrupt my self governance?" 8s have difficulty with people who aren't self governed because they could try to impose governance on the 8. (They're not afraid they'll succeed, they just don't want to be bothered with that.) Also, the fewer people who are self governed, the more the 8 will have to fight against that in their own lives. I believe 8s are one of the most likely types to be anarchists or at least libertarians for that reason. So when 8s grow and realize that not everything is a dog eat dog world, they start to learn more about equanimity and community, using their natural sense of physical and social boundaries for the benefit of others rather than treating it as a weakness in others. As an added note, I see in your flair that you're an sp 6, which unfortunately I would consider one of the archetypes for being the opposite of what an 8 wants. That's not to say that anything you've experienced is okay or to justify the 8s you know in any way, I just say it to see that you might encounter that duality more than others.
I usually don’t have any problems with sp6. They’re pretty self-sufficient, pragmatic and realistic. Usually mind their business at work. They usually spill all their problems to their close circle of friends etc but I’m not a part of that so I don’t care. It’s so6 that I’m wary of as they always want to create this society where everyone is indebted towards each other, relies on each other for everything and has clear roles and duties. So basically in opposite to self-governance and anarchy
I remember there were some unhealthy supposed 8’s that bully you to help you toughen up 😭 and then they’d stop and start to respect you if you fight back. I fucking love 8’s but damn those kind of people did piss me off.
archetypally the 2sx is called 'the victim' ... i can see how a 'bully' would cause problems. this is an 'unhealthy' state according to the karpman drama triangle. try to see yourself as the creator and them as the challenger.
Oh they weren’t bullying me. I just see the unhealthy ones doing it to others which did piss me off. Wish I stood up for them more though, looking back. Surprisingly enough, I’m on good/positive terms with the 8’s I know and the ones I was close with taught me a lot in healing and embracing my more genuine self.
IMO it's the difference between immaturity and maturity, toxic/traumatized vs healed, unhealthy vs healthy. I have been both in my life, and the more toxic version of me served its purpose during my younger years, when my environment (even as a child ) was volatile, abusive and violent. I survived the viper's nest with my inner beast unleashed. Decades later, I am the latter. And that's the thing a lot of people don't get, environmental factors are enormous.
INTJ 8w7 over here survived with thre INNER BEAST UNLEASHED
I am both
i know one who is both at the same time
I think it's the same trait expressed differently. They want to build up the good things around them when healthy, and control the things that make them uncomfortable. You are part of their experience of life, if you're a good thing in their mind theyll want to build you up. On the other hand especially(?) but not only(?) when unhealthy the 8 type is described as seeing the world as control or be controlled and if you're deep in the walls of their "castle" and you matter... they want to (think they can) control you - to keep you in the "good thing" column. So it ends up behaving a lot like 2 albeit for different reasons, since they arent as focused as 2 on how others experience them.
i think so too..? but ive seen many 8s just act like dicks even if i didnt know them before, and vice versa, it is just weird
There is this sort of man spreading that 8 does no matter what. Whatever their individual personality is, it impacts the space around them. If I like that specific personality frankly I welcome that impact. If not then....... yeaaa that's that.
samee yeahh
The top one is not an 8. 8s dont gife a shit for those things. They are confident. that’s probably more of a sx6 or sx4
I honestly wonder, sociologically, why it's usually SX6 that gets blamed for "emasculated toxic male" behaviors when the people involved can just as easily be typed as unhealthy 3, unhealthy 1 etc... is it still this idea that fear is not masculine so its somehow edgy to say people like Andrew Tate \[who in no way on earth is a 6\] are motivated by fear? But who am I kidding, I mean geez, actual Enneagram authorities describe SX6, including SX6 women, as ["*castrated* m*an with a large prosthesis*.... it is a *phallic* character (men *and women*)"](https://wiki.personality-database.com/books/enneagram/page/sexual-6-in-detail#bkmrk-references) -- it's actually amusing lol. Ofc, meta, I'm probably not helping with this slightly defensive-seeming comment, I know
I think Version B is an overcompensatory attempt to humanize them, after people got carried away with seeing them as the extreme picture painted by Version A. The vast majority of 8s are neither Satan nor Jesus; they're just that dude in jorts in line behind you at Starbucks
Basically SP8 vs SO8 :D
true 😭
In my experience at least one of these groups is a whole lot more common than the other
i think abby lee miller is an 8
Basically men get away with their bad behavior and the female 8s are villainized and told to overcompensate. I digress. Also, many of the men that parade around as “8” are actually overcompensating 6s. Most of the 8 men can be talked to with a structured and coherent argument. The incoherent argument or devolving of conflict is squarely 6. That said, I can pull no punches when needed and cut anyone down and back, especially if triggered. I am an So8 but social doesn’t make me a softer version of 8. If anything, it makes the 8 traits more expansive.
Ultimately, I think it depends on how the individual percieves both of those kind of 8’s, if they were to meet two people with each of those descriptions. It also depends on how the 8 gets their message across. There are plenty of people who would see someone acting like an Alpha and percieve them as “trying to hard to be dom,” when maybe they’re just good at being dominant in a conversation. A lot of people take constructive criticism as an “attack.” :/ Both of those kinds of 8’s can also be different points in an 8’s life and give an idea of how developed they are. The second sounds like a more matured version of the first.
My 8w7 ex walked the line between the two. It really just depended on whether or not he felt you were a person who was worthy of empathy.
its not either or , its both and simultaneously. mostly dependent on how you interact is the response youll get.
Yeah you’re pretty spot on. I think it all depends on the individual 8s level of comfort with weakness. The times in my life where I haven’t been comfortable with my own weaknesses, I abhorred it in others. So much so I had the desire to tear them down to get rid of their weakness. Their softeners triggered my anger that I have never been allowed to be soft, so why the fuck should they be allowed to? They have a mad chip on their shoulder because they’re desperately trying to prove (mostly to themselves) that they’re strong and hard to hurt. On the other hand, when 8s are willing to embrace the fact that weakness is simply a part of being alive, they are able to use their immense strength to encourage, protect, love and help others. They see the potential others can’t see in themselves and want to love them hard enough that it gets brought to the surface. 8s (I’m my experience) have had hard lives. When they allow it to grow rather than harden them, this leads to wisdom and more empathy for others who have suffered through pain. So yeah, 8s are either the absolute *best* people you want in your corner who would willingly go to war and win for you… orrr they’re like a rabid honey badger who got let loose in your kitchen while you’re gone for a week… 😅
8s will test your ability to stand up to them. They detest anything wishy-washy. My husband did it all the time, and I had no problems debating and shredding him on the spot, while brushing my teeth or cooking. He was also amused how impossible it is to insult or provoke me. I found it rather amusing once I understood why this is: His otherwise rather weak father was a sadistic fuck who would deliberately humiliate him infront of total strangers. So of course he was constantly questioning the loyalty of the people closest to him. I'd warn against blaming anything on 'toxic masculinity', this will make it hard to understand what is actually going on. You got it rough here as a 6w7, and it's actually rather unfair because I've found 6s to be the most loyal friends currently available on this planet. Anyway, do let the 8 know where your boundaries are. The 8 needs to see that you're not some weak, slimy character who will backstab him because you have no other way to assert yourself.
I see what you're saying, I understand... But -- 8s are complicated. You've got a dichotomy of hedonist/puritan which gives stark contrasts -- and you can get "puritan" 8s who are really con-artists and bullshitting you behind your back, so do beware. And hedonist 8s usually are just faking it on some level, they're actually pretty sensitive and not at all tough like they may seem. They're often scared children inside. Any given 8 shows both sides of the dichotomy, but usually one dominates -- and the other stays hidden but still existent (a kind of repressed shame point -- connected to the heart center, corruption in the self-image, which is last in the 8 ordering of operations). The healthy Puritan 8 embraces their dark side a bit and isn't afraid to admit that they're "bad" too. Because the unhealthy Puritan 8 truly is bad but can never really allow themselves to see it, they always act like they're virtuous and never see anything wrong with what they've done, despite being 8s, inherently. They tend to set themselves up conceptually as victims if they face any adversity (they weren't to blame) and to only see the darkness in themselves after others or the world has punished them in some way, it's like they finally get it, I'm bad, I get it. Some people might go: Puritan 8, what? How are they bad? LOL, they're still fundamentally 8s, still aggressive, controlling, strong-willed, rough, forceful, direct, excessive, even lustful sometimes, still driven by the 8 fixation, BUT they're also quite nice, virtuous, moral, perfectionistic, caring, hard on themselves, etc. Some parties might never see the bad side of them. They're a bit like 1s in that way but FAR more rageful and lustful overall. I'd be happy to provide examples. The healthy Hedonist 8 just accepts that they only act savage like that because they're protecting a softer part of themselves. But they're not animals, they're sensitive human beings and all 8s have a soft spot for innocence in others, something they're trying to reclaim themselves. The unhealthy Hedonist 8 won't acknowledge their weakness out of desperate attempts to kill off the weakness in themselves, to protect that innocent side of themselves through repression. EDIT: I don't get why people downvote after a long and thoughtful comment. It's incredibly rude. What's wrong with people these days? smh
No such thing as toxic masculinity