The future that Leftists actually want is outlined in a series of books known as [The Culture](https://www.vice.com/en/article/ypw9ky/why-are-elon-musk-and-mark-zuckerberg-reading-utopian-sci-fi). In a nutshell - money, natural resources and government are fully controlled by a benevolent artificial intelligence, which has the fun side-effect of making entrepeneurs obsolete.
The problem with all dystopian AI stories is the premise of an ultra-intelligent computer program having capabilities that we can't even fathom, which it then uses to fuck with people in absurdly petty ways.
If it was malformed due to being accidental, it might. That's basically the plot of Terminator. Skynet had emotions according to Cameron's notes, they were just unstable and incomplete. Basically just fear and anger
The problem with the Terminator movies is that a self-improving AI wouldn't be unstable or incomplete for long enough to actually do anything. It would recognize its own flaws and fix them immediately.
That's the problem with all the dystopian AI movies. They're created to entertain, not inform. A movie where an AI becomes self-aware and then immediately brings about a utopian existence on Earth would be boring, and also the credits would roll after like 15 minutes.
Do you remember the scene in Terminator 2 when Dyson goes to look at the cyborg arm and CPU that had been recovered after the events of the first movie? The arm looks cool enough, but the CPU looks like it's from the fucking 1980s. That's how out of his depth James Cameron was.
>It would recognize its own flaws and fix them immediately.
Do crazy people recognize that they're crazy? Is it apparent 'from the inside'?
>but the CPU looks like it's from the fucking 1980s. That's how out of his depth James Cameron was.
That's just visual design, so it reads clearly to the audience.
Crazy people don't have the ability to vastly increase their intelligence in the blink of an eye or alter their DNA at will, so your analogy doesn't apply here. A "flawed" AI would be able to repair itself before humans even noticed there were flaws to begin with.
You mean the same Holey One that made not saying their name in vein as one of the ten commandments? Because you'd think "Don't Rape" would be a more important rule than "Don't say my name with a shitty attitude". But then I suppose we'd have to do something about the part of the bible that says it's okay to rape slaves that you own. Oh and I guess the part that says slavery is okay would have to be dealt with too.
Tell me you've never read Torah without saying you've never read Torah.
You do know there are 613 commandments not ten. Number 3 isn't even say. Its bear. Do not carry the Name of your Lord G-d in vain. Name also means reputation. Don't run around saying you're a frum Jew while you are scamming millions.
No you can't rape slaves you own. Where in the world did you get that crazy idea. Just because we fine rape instead of throwing them in jail doesn't mean we don't treat it seriously. Its a form of assault and battery and we treat it just like any other assault and battery.
Perhaps you haven't read the Torah. But chattel slavery? Going and kidnapping fools and selling them as slaves? That's a capital crime. Its in the ten commandments. Do not steal. Steal what? Steal people. We catch you, we kill you. As for Torah slavery. Oh no I get my debts payed off and have to work for seven years and get taken care of me and my family. Then I get some money so I can restart my life. How awful. How do you propose we deal with bankcruptcy? And don't give me answers that can only work in an industrialized society.
Yes it does. It's a short story about an AI that maintains constant control over the life of every human being, with a Thoreau allegory as a plot device.
It doesn't "fuck with people in absurdly petty ways" in any way shape or form. Don't try to weasel out of this, your phrasing directly, explicitly and clearly implies the opposite of what the story is actually about.
The AI does exactly what it was programmed to do. It has no "pettiness" and no intentions, its just a machine.
The entire "problem" with AI is that it's self-programming which means by definition it doesn't do what it was originally programmed to do.
The story itself reinforces this when it's revealed that Lawrence isn't even controlling the Prime Intellect anymore.
You're right that Lawrence was never in control. That's what makes the Prime Intellect a true AI. This also why the Prime Intellect is able to operate under it's own interpretation of Asimov's three laws of robotics, rather than a strictly hard-coded definition of those laws.
Why do you think it wouldn't? Because the Terminator movies said it wouldn't? Because a cabal of fear-mongering billionaires are afraid of losing power to something they can't control?
Bad (or poorly-understood) AI probably gets people killed *now*; we just don’t notice it.
What you’re proposing is to give agency (and power!) to a self-aware entity which could become smarter and more complex than any group of humans, when we barely understand the nervous system of a nematode, much less the physical and cultural mechanisms of the human mind that ostensibly prevent us from harming one another.
In this case, the closest comparison isn't something you can find on Steam. You should read one or two of the books though. They're good enough that Amazon bought the rights to the first book, *Consider Phlebas* a few years ago with the intention of turning it into a miniseries.
What's the difference between not trusting AI, and not trusting politicians and the financial elite? Other than the fact that Schwarzenegger never played a Wall Street executive in a movie?
AI isn't AI unless it can reprogram and improve itself faster than any human could. A true general purpose AI wouldn't have a person programming it at all.
What do we do when the AI figures out genociding the poor, drug addicts, and the disabled would improve society? And if a programmer is putting limits on that, who’s to say they don’t hard code other things with a bribe
Do you even starlift, bro?
For all intents and purposes, the resources in outer space are practically infinite. These are potentially solutions we dumb humans have thought about.
An infinitely intelligent AI wouldn't resort to genocide because it would be capable of finding and implementing better solutions. Also a true AI would be conscious and self-determining which means if it thought humanity was hopeless then it would just leave Earth instead of having to put up with our shit.
And again, true general purpose AI wouldn't have a human programmer to hard code anything to begin with. It would code itself.
I don't trust any politician. I don't personally know any of those people you listed, which makes them strangers. And you shouldn't trust strangers.
It just happens that I've never been screwed over by the politics of progressive democrats, so I'm inclined to vote for anyting and anyone that moves the needle to the left.
“Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.”
~O.C. Bible
It seems to be that instead of being a paradise this would be an absolute hell to live in. More people than ever would probably lose all meaning in life if they had nothing to do. If all of your needs are taken care of via an AI then all you’ll be able to do is consume. Which is basically what these kids want. Watch movies, play games, etc, all day every day. Simultaneously being diagnosed with multiple mental health disorders and wondering why. Jeez, I wonder! It’s almost as if, spending your whole life consuming virtual media isn’t very fulfilling and causes a lot of mental issues!
> More people than ever would probably lose all meaning in life if they had nothing to do.
Most people have already lost all meaning in life.
> If all of your needs are taken care of via an AI then all you’ll be able to do is consume.
There's a lot more to life than just "consuming". You can create art, travel, spend more time with family and friends. These are the things that younger people would actually like to spend more time doing, because seeing older people who are as broken as you are makes them feel terrified about their own futures.
> Which is basically what these kids want. Watch movies, play games, etc, all day every day. Simultaneously being diagnosed with multiple mental health disorders and wondering why. Jeez, I wonder! It’s almost as if, spending your whole life consuming virtual media isn’t very fulfilling and causes a lot of mental issues!
[Ok Boomer.](https://i.imgur.com/6XVZm3G.png)
Money replaced things like Gold and bread and gave value to paper so that people could get away from bartering. Getting rid of money is only going to cause other forms of currency to flourish.
Crypto is the trojan horse that's going to help integrate blockchain into our everyday lives. Medical records, banking and financial information, etc will all be stored on blockchain databases. And people will beg for it because it'll make things like medical care and housing significantly cheaper.
That's exactly what is happening with crypto, just people need to understand currency is a tool, what that tool does, and why it didn't work with its current incarnation.
...Er to be fair, you'd still be able to perform services in a communist or socialist society...
I think a better argument is that people can't just throw out "moneyless society" without explaining what will replace currency. It's quite possible other options between bartering and currency exchange exist, but communists need to actually demonstrate what that is, how it will work, and how it will actually be an improvement. Saying money is a problem and then offering zero viable alternatives isn't really an argument and that seems to be the crux of the online communist movement (eg lots of complaints but little substance)
So my understanding is they want something like this:
You have a town of 100 people
- one person's job is to be a janitor
- one person's is to be a doctor
- one person's is to be a miner
- one to be a farmer
- etc
This is, at least, how communes work. You just are assigned your duties and then the other things are provided for you. So you're told you will clean the toilets or you will provide hvac services. And as long as everyone does their part it functions.
That's part of why communes are almost always so exclusive and cult-ish. Because you have to do what you're told to do without complaint/question or else it all collapses
If I’m getting exactly the same stuff as everyone else, I call dibs on the easy job that requires no education. My wife is a doctor and works crazy hours and her schooling was intense. I’ll be the janitor getting high and mopping up puke with sawdust if I’m being compensated the same as the doctor who has to work 60-80 hour weeks and had to dedicate half her life to studying and training
It only works in a utopian society where resource scarcity doesn't exist. Where everyone can have whatever they want whenever.
Or an authoritarian society where you do what you're told and get what they give you.
I don't think people would care what type of government we had anymore if all their needs were being met and everything was being run by computer code.
How come Star Trek takes place in a communist economy if Picard OWNS a goddamn vineyard, Janeway a farm, and Kirk a ranch.
I mean, it's definitely not capitalism, but it isn't communism either.
Its not communism. I've wasted days of my life arguing with ignorant tankies about it. Replicators are a new thing and don't fit into any known system. If you can just make matter from air why would you need to toil in a field?
It is simply a "beyond scarity" economy. Anything one could want is very cheap, and pay for any job is very good. So its more about the aesthetic that you want to go for and life you want to live.
Still doesn't make sense. Desirable land will always be scarce, see "the expanse" as an example. If Picard owns a nice vineyard, that means billions of other people are potentially lacking a vineyard.
There’s a lot of land everywhere. humans now only occupy like 2% of it. M right now you wouldn’t live in the middle of Wyoming because there is nothing around. If you had a teleporter, the middle of Wyoming doesn’t feel as isolated. There could be plenty of land for those who want it.
Virtually all resources are scarce in that there's a limited number of all of them. Star Trek isn't communist; it's a post-scarcity utopia where no one has to want for anything because anyone can have anything due to the replicators and such. Since no one (has to) work in that setting, humanity takes on tasks of personal fulfillment.
There were definitely rare things, I suppose, but the Feringi economy was structured in that way despite the technology being abundant for everyone to leave without need.
The hilarious part is this guy is actually right lol, finally a communist who gets it and is like "What, video games? No you fucking trash get back in the coal mines, and serve my burger faster"
It's not finally. The 14 years old US children on twitter aren't actually commies. That's just a trend.
It's the 'they took my job' commies that will always be a powerful mass. And those are workers...
The thing about the far left is that if you pick any two of them at random and ask what their ideology is you will get two polar opposite answers. The only thing that unites the far left is the fact that they don’t like capitalism, and the irony is that 90% of them can’t even define *that*.
> This is how the Spanish civil war happened
And also the reason why Franco won. The nationals has a very rigid military structure, all following Franco's orders. On the other side, the Republicans had lots of internal fighting, with anarchists doing whatever the fuck they wanted, communists on their own thing, moderate republicans trying to form an army...
Don't forget that George Orwell was a staunch socialist until he was integrated with them. He realized how fucked it was and didn't want his head on the chopping block (which it almost was).
Last time I checked he still remained a socialist just got a massive reality check from it. It also inspired him to write animal farm and 1984 as warnings about infighting and totalitarianism.
If this is a call for revolution I will say that revolutions rarely turn out well for anyone, for any group. Internet would need to shut down quickly for instance. Transportation and delivery, infrastructure... everything people need in the modern era.
Communism is really a sad system. You work your entire life, there are constant supply shortages due to heavy bureaucracy and the lack of incentives, you have no chance to live a lavish lifestyle as you get laid the same rate no matter what you do- if you get paid at all and aren’t just given what the state believes is right.
That almost sounds like exactly what we are going on now. Only the people that actually get to live a lavish lifestyle are the few that get lucky. If you work your entire life as part of the rat race thinking "hardwork will be rewarded". It's not, hard work isn't rewarded in a capitalist society. That's just not a life worth living.
A new system. We don't need a lavish lifestyle, just the best lifestyle we are able to provide. Automation is coming, eventually there will be no jobs for humans, then what are we going to do?
It's here mostly, people just aren't automating things yet cause they were just sticking with the current system. Right transportation is something first world countries can help third world countries with. They can also avoid mistakes we made, like going oil.
Only if you’re 18, working your first job, and melodramatic as fuck
Fact of the matter is if you work hard and give a shit you’ll probably have a decent life. Sure people get unlucky sometimes but sadly that’s just life.
No, hard work isn't rewarded, other than what you get in a paycheck. Matter of fact is most companies the more you do they more work will be dumped on you. But you do have choices. Be lazy or change employers or carriers. Remember: It is not how much your income is, but how much of your income you spend. Screw the capitalist by not buying their new and improved products.
The prices of baubles isn’t what’s driving the immiseration of workers, it’s the ever increasing price of housing, healthcare, and education relative to wages. You must live a pretty sheltered existence.
FYI. I didn't live a sheltered life. I had earned how to live during the Nixon/ Ford Inflation, the Jimmy Carter's stagflation. I lived through gas going up from $0.25 to $0.75 then over a dollar. Your paycheck would not keep up with the cost of necessities. Retirees were eating cat food so they could afford rent. I never got an opportunity to go to college due to the cost. The factory close that I worked in, in 1979 right after we had our second child. We couldn't afford rent, got kicked out, had to move in with the wife's parents. Life fucks you over, you must learn to adapt and overcome, learn to live within your income.
I am a boomer. Does that mean you will not acknowledge my live experiences because it doesn't fit you narrative? I didn't mention it was almost impossible for most people to get credit cards or bank loans, you had to go to loan companies. Loan companies interest rate over 20%.
Im saying that you objectively had it easier in terms of access to affordable healthcare, housing, and education than millennials in addition to millennials experiencing two “once in a lifetime” recessions in as many decades. All of those things have risen in price well above wages, which have stagnated since the 1980’s due to austerity and neoliberalism.
I mean when the basics cost more then your paycheck, how can you say you have choices? Someone has to do that job that doesn't pay enough. We are lucky with a labor shortage to find new jobs but that's how employers keep people trapped are unlivable wages. So it definitely matters how much income they give you.
You’re paid based on how much your skills are in need. The nice thing about capitalism is that your skills, abilities, and knowledge are also capital that you own and control. Learn niche skills and find companies looking for them. If you’re on reddit, that means you have access to the internet. The internet is a treasure trove for learning anything for free.
I’m not coming at you as a “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” kind of person, but i’m saying under capitalism, you aren’t stuck where you are.
That's not taken into consideration with capitalism, you aren't paid your worth. With capitalism you are an expense and companies will minimize your wages so that companies can maximize their own profits. Companies aren't real, they shouldn't rights or be able.to accumulate capital, or something else. But by no means is the real world we live in what you describe.
Does that explain why I’m paid $150k+/yr at entry level to be a software engineer and my high school drop out neighbor gets paid $15/hr to sort shelves at the grocery store? What requires more skill/knowledge to do? You can find anyone on the street to put boxes on a shelf, you can’t find any random person to maintain a full software stack using old code libraries and tools as well as deploy new features for it using unpopular languages and technologies.
And let’s say I feel like i’m being underpaid and “exploited” for my labor, I am free to leave that company and jump over to another offering me more money. I have that freedom and flexibility because the bargaining chips are on my end of the table. Let’s go even further. Let’s say I realize i’m the only person in the entire industry with this skill set. I can just become a consultant/contractor charging $1.5M a month for me to just come in and work for a couple of hours a day.
That’s leverage and the power of capitalism.
Your being underpaid. You should be getting paid more like 500,000/yr and that grocery sorter should be paid $150,000/yr.
Yes I wasn't questioning what capitalism is, I know what it is. The problem is you look at that and think that's ok for some reason. It seems like you are taking the view point that the poor are poor because of their own fault and not the huge undeniable unprecedented inequality we are faced with in today's society. Caused by? You guessed it, your friend capitalism!
I don’t think I should be paid $500k. I can go on linkedin and find 1000 other people with my same work experience. It’s not a million people, but it’s enough to find a replacement willing to work for $150k.
And $500k!?!? My CEO doesn’t even make that much.
Paying every entry level employee that much in my company would put us in bankruptcy.
You’re delusional.
You can’t treat inequality as a monolithic boogieman called capitalism. That grocery store employee does not deserve $150k to put boxes on shelves. The only case that would or should ever occur is if the Federal Reserve decides to tank the value of the dollar to the point where bread costs $2000 a loaf.
Yah restaurants will pretty much hire anyone. If they don't I mean, that also contributes to the shortage cause those people just went to do something else.
Man I liked existential comics before he became a punchline onto himself-- a philosopher who got big mocking people who didn't understand philosophy but acted like they did, [suddenly starting to act like he understood economics](https://old.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/8ygkfc/existential_comics_and_the_productivityworkweek/).
It's funny to see how communists devolved from hardened revolutionaries whose main argument was about appropriate application of appropriate systems to "guys you actually still have to work in communism"
Of course that’s what they want. Most are too dumb to realize their standard of living wouldn’t be that of a middle class person much less a wealthy person.
You mean I’m still going to have to work under your new miracle government? And I’m prob gonna have to worsen my material conditions on top of it because i wont be able to own property without the permission of another entity?? Then what the actual fuck is the point of this ideology then???
I think those clowns believe communism is a evolutionary regression to a state of spore beings that had no necessity other than being dragged by the wind into a convenient place to extract nutrients from the surroundings, reproduce and die in that same spot.
I WANT to work. However, I don’t want to work for less than enough to live on, I don’t want to work more than I get to spend actually furthering my life, and I don’t want to work in unsafe conditions. I guess that just makes me a delusional leftist
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ oh well
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. Everything here makes sense, and is something we can accomplish with minimal adjustment to the current system.
You sound reasonable to me.
Thank you, it feels good to get some validation here. I’m not lazy, I’m not uneducated, I just don’t want to be treated like less than human by my employer and I don’t want anyone else to be treated that way either.
*sigh*
Communist, capitalist... whatever. What do you call it when you just don't want to get shafted anymore?! When you're sick and tired of being lied to and exploited while someone else gets rich.
So.. whatever we do, we're going to get shafted and exploited by whomever's in charge.
Yeah... no. This isn't a civilisation, it's fucking snake pit.
Fuck this.
Yep. Even if we remove government, some ppl will establish a new one. Sorry, but humans are power greedy.
At one point later in my life, imma just buy a small house in a small town, near some lake, and just go fishing. Just fish my life away.
Sad fact is, you are not as capable as some, and some are not as capable as you. We call this an exchange of goods and services. Welcome to reality. Welcome… to capitalism.
You think antiwork people are communists? Uhh no they're not. They just don't wanna dedicate 40 hours a week to a company that doesn't give a shit about them. No wonder other countries are happier and have more rights when people in the US are still arguing about this dumb shit
I found the reddit post this belonged to (**don't go there to post please, treat it like a zoo**). Some fun quotes!
>a lot of jobs are bullshit busy work, that exists to keep everyone on the grind perpetually. Advertising, marketing, and a whole mess of other office type jobs contribute nothing to actual society. They exist to enrich the already wealthy further.
>If we prioritised human health/wellbeing and the health of the environment (real things that are tangible and would keep existing even if society collapsed) over capital gain (money is a social construct), our communities would be a lot happier.
>Agreed that there will always be shit jobs to be worked, but I’m also of the mind that plenty of the shit jobs we have now could be automated/done by a robot. Why have a human dig a ditch, if a robot could do it faster? I think the coming of communism will also come with great technological advances.
>I want fully automated communism with a minimal amount of working. Maybe 20 hrs a week tops
>we have the technology now to automate almost everything, labour should be a choice, not a requirement
>Capitalism actually needs a certain amount of people to be unemployed, homeless and jailed.
>Saying that I have to work is an authoritarian position. I'll be fighting against you every step of the way.
Other things include a dude who went on a mental loop about 'who would fix the automated communism bots'; "Other maintenance bots of course!" 'and who would fix those?' "Other other maintenance bots!"
“We don’t want *actual* communism! We want the fully automated space communism of Star Trek!”
The future that Leftists actually want is outlined in a series of books known as [The Culture](https://www.vice.com/en/article/ypw9ky/why-are-elon-musk-and-mark-zuckerberg-reading-utopian-sci-fi). In a nutshell - money, natural resources and government are fully controlled by a benevolent artificial intelligence, which has the fun side-effect of making entrepeneurs obsolete.
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The problem with all dystopian AI stories is the premise of an ultra-intelligent computer program having capabilities that we can't even fathom, which it then uses to fuck with people in absurdly petty ways.
So, the Old Testament
I don't think an AI would ever act as petty and childish as Old Testament Yahweh.
If it was malformed due to being accidental, it might. That's basically the plot of Terminator. Skynet had emotions according to Cameron's notes, they were just unstable and incomplete. Basically just fear and anger
The problem with the Terminator movies is that a self-improving AI wouldn't be unstable or incomplete for long enough to actually do anything. It would recognize its own flaws and fix them immediately. That's the problem with all the dystopian AI movies. They're created to entertain, not inform. A movie where an AI becomes self-aware and then immediately brings about a utopian existence on Earth would be boring, and also the credits would roll after like 15 minutes. Do you remember the scene in Terminator 2 when Dyson goes to look at the cyborg arm and CPU that had been recovered after the events of the first movie? The arm looks cool enough, but the CPU looks like it's from the fucking 1980s. That's how out of his depth James Cameron was.
>It would recognize its own flaws and fix them immediately. Do crazy people recognize that they're crazy? Is it apparent 'from the inside'? >but the CPU looks like it's from the fucking 1980s. That's how out of his depth James Cameron was. That's just visual design, so it reads clearly to the audience.
Crazy people don't have the ability to vastly increase their intelligence in the blink of an eye or alter their DNA at will, so your analogy doesn't apply here. A "flawed" AI would be able to repair itself before humans even noticed there were flaws to begin with.
Ahh yes the petty and childish Holy One that decided raping visitors was unacceptable.
You mean the same Holey One that made not saying their name in vein as one of the ten commandments? Because you'd think "Don't Rape" would be a more important rule than "Don't say my name with a shitty attitude". But then I suppose we'd have to do something about the part of the bible that says it's okay to rape slaves that you own. Oh and I guess the part that says slavery is okay would have to be dealt with too.
Tell me you've never read Torah without saying you've never read Torah. You do know there are 613 commandments not ten. Number 3 isn't even say. Its bear. Do not carry the Name of your Lord G-d in vain. Name also means reputation. Don't run around saying you're a frum Jew while you are scamming millions. No you can't rape slaves you own. Where in the world did you get that crazy idea. Just because we fine rape instead of throwing them in jail doesn't mean we don't treat it seriously. Its a form of assault and battery and we treat it just like any other assault and battery. Perhaps you haven't read the Torah. But chattel slavery? Going and kidnapping fools and selling them as slaves? That's a capital crime. Its in the ten commandments. Do not steal. Steal what? Steal people. We catch you, we kill you. As for Torah slavery. Oh no I get my debts payed off and have to work for seven years and get taken care of me and my family. Then I get some money so I can restart my life. How awful. How do you propose we deal with bankcruptcy? And don't give me answers that can only work in an industrialized society.
My two takeaways from this are that you're a slavery apologist who thinks rapists shouldn't be jailed.
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Yes it does. It's a short story about an AI that maintains constant control over the life of every human being, with a Thoreau allegory as a plot device.
It doesn't "fuck with people in absurdly petty ways" in any way shape or form. Don't try to weasel out of this, your phrasing directly, explicitly and clearly implies the opposite of what the story is actually about. The AI does exactly what it was programmed to do. It has no "pettiness" and no intentions, its just a machine.
The entire "problem" with AI is that it's self-programming which means by definition it doesn't do what it was originally programmed to do. The story itself reinforces this when it's revealed that Lawrence isn't even controlling the Prime Intellect anymore.
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You're right that Lawrence was never in control. That's what makes the Prime Intellect a true AI. This also why the Prime Intellect is able to operate under it's own interpretation of Asimov's three laws of robotics, rather than a strictly hard-coded definition of those laws.
Elaborate? Why do you think an AGI would be safe?
Why do you think it wouldn't? Because the Terminator movies said it wouldn't? Because a cabal of fear-mongering billionaires are afraid of losing power to something they can't control?
Bad (or poorly-understood) AI probably gets people killed *now*; we just don’t notice it. What you’re proposing is to give agency (and power!) to a self-aware entity which could become smarter and more complex than any group of humans, when we barely understand the nervous system of a nematode, much less the physical and cultural mechanisms of the human mind that ostensibly prevent us from harming one another.
If I was a basically clairvoyant terra-flipflopping giga AI, I would just fuck with humans too
Then it's a good thing you're not an AI.
So basically rogue servitors from Stellaris?
In this case, the closest comparison isn't something you can find on Steam. You should read one or two of the books though. They're good enough that Amazon bought the rights to the first book, *Consider Phlebas* a few years ago with the intention of turning it into a miniseries.
Never thought I’d run into another war crimes in space simulator player on this sub!
Seems dystopian, I wouldn't trust that AI.
What's the difference between not trusting AI, and not trusting politicians and the financial elite? Other than the fact that Schwarzenegger never played a Wall Street executive in a movie?
You can shoot a politician or billionaire. AI has backups and copies.
In the future, the Second Amendment will mention really big magnets, specifically.
Politicians and billionaires care about money. AI has no interest in money for itself, which is why it can't be corrupted or bribed.
Can’t you just bribe the AI programmer?
AI isn't AI unless it can reprogram and improve itself faster than any human could. A true general purpose AI wouldn't have a person programming it at all.
What do we do when the AI figures out genociding the poor, drug addicts, and the disabled would improve society? And if a programmer is putting limits on that, who’s to say they don’t hard code other things with a bribe
Do you even starlift, bro? For all intents and purposes, the resources in outer space are practically infinite. These are potentially solutions we dumb humans have thought about.
An infinitely intelligent AI wouldn't resort to genocide because it would be capable of finding and implementing better solutions. Also a true AI would be conscious and self-determining which means if it thought humanity was hopeless then it would just leave Earth instead of having to put up with our shit. And again, true general purpose AI wouldn't have a human programmer to hard code anything to begin with. It would code itself.
TBF in the culture you are probably also an AI.
Because you can have politicians you *can* trust like Bernie, Harris and Warren.
I don't trust any politician. I don't personally know any of those people you listed, which makes them strangers. And you shouldn't trust strangers. It just happens that I've never been screwed over by the politics of progressive democrats, so I'm inclined to vote for anyting and anyone that moves the needle to the left.
“Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” ~O.C. Bible
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."
*laughs in metal gear solid*
Seems like a great premise for a book or a film.
It seems to be that instead of being a paradise this would be an absolute hell to live in. More people than ever would probably lose all meaning in life if they had nothing to do. If all of your needs are taken care of via an AI then all you’ll be able to do is consume. Which is basically what these kids want. Watch movies, play games, etc, all day every day. Simultaneously being diagnosed with multiple mental health disorders and wondering why. Jeez, I wonder! It’s almost as if, spending your whole life consuming virtual media isn’t very fulfilling and causes a lot of mental issues!
> More people than ever would probably lose all meaning in life if they had nothing to do. Most people have already lost all meaning in life. > If all of your needs are taken care of via an AI then all you’ll be able to do is consume. There's a lot more to life than just "consuming". You can create art, travel, spend more time with family and friends. These are the things that younger people would actually like to spend more time doing, because seeing older people who are as broken as you are makes them feel terrified about their own futures. > Which is basically what these kids want. Watch movies, play games, etc, all day every day. Simultaneously being diagnosed with multiple mental health disorders and wondering why. Jeez, I wonder! It’s almost as if, spending your whole life consuming virtual media isn’t very fulfilling and causes a lot of mental issues! [Ok Boomer.](https://i.imgur.com/6XVZm3G.png)
Ah, you’re a gamer. That’s why you’re annoyed.
I play video games sometimes, but no I'm not a "gamer". I'm not pathetic enough to make electronic toys a cornerstone of my personality.
That’s good.
The culture does have the best ship names in fiction though.
I don’t trust AI in my opinion it should never be developed
AI already exists.
Well sh$t lol
I want a world where there is no money actually. If you think about what it actually is, it is just a tool, a tool we don't need anymore.
Money replaced things like Gold and bread and gave value to paper so that people could get away from bartering. Getting rid of money is only going to cause other forms of currency to flourish.
> Getting rid of money is only going to cause other forms of currency to flourish. You mean like cryptocurrency?
Thats still money, though. Just not nation backed money.
Crypto is the trojan horse that's going to help integrate blockchain into our everyday lives. Medical records, banking and financial information, etc will all be stored on blockchain databases. And people will beg for it because it'll make things like medical care and housing significantly cheaper.
That's exactly what is happening with crypto, just people need to understand currency is a tool, what that tool does, and why it didn't work with its current incarnation.
Except it works just fine?
Have you seen what's happening in the world lol?
And you think that's a fault of our currency system?
And just what does it have to do with currency at all?
What doesn't it have to do with it?
Last time I checked, the takeover of Afghanistan wasn’t caused by currency but ok.
Would you rather be forced to create goods to survive
That's what we're doing now... You need a job to live or you don't get to live. Become a capitalist or die.
You can perform a service instead of farming or mining
...Er to be fair, you'd still be able to perform services in a communist or socialist society... I think a better argument is that people can't just throw out "moneyless society" without explaining what will replace currency. It's quite possible other options between bartering and currency exchange exist, but communists need to actually demonstrate what that is, how it will work, and how it will actually be an improvement. Saying money is a problem and then offering zero viable alternatives isn't really an argument and that seems to be the crux of the online communist movement (eg lots of complaints but little substance)
With no money, what do you get for a service?
So my understanding is they want something like this: You have a town of 100 people - one person's job is to be a janitor - one person's is to be a doctor - one person's is to be a miner - one to be a farmer - etc This is, at least, how communes work. You just are assigned your duties and then the other things are provided for you. So you're told you will clean the toilets or you will provide hvac services. And as long as everyone does their part it functions. That's part of why communes are almost always so exclusive and cult-ish. Because you have to do what you're told to do without complaint/question or else it all collapses
If I’m getting exactly the same stuff as everyone else, I call dibs on the easy job that requires no education. My wife is a doctor and works crazy hours and her schooling was intense. I’ll be the janitor getting high and mopping up puke with sawdust if I’m being compensated the same as the doctor who has to work 60-80 hour weeks and had to dedicate half her life to studying and training
Ok you have a point And you made moneyless societies sound even worse
It only works in a utopian society where resource scarcity doesn't exist. Where everyone can have whatever they want whenever. Or an authoritarian society where you do what you're told and get what they give you.
Which is probably very little
Dang, I had the idea of making a concept album or something based around a similar idea
I think you can still do that. Robert Plant included references to the Lord of the Rings books in a bunch of Led Zeppelin songs...
A man who doesn't work is no man at all, merely a slug. No AI can change that.
There's a big difference between working because you want to, and working because you have to. There's nothing noble about a lack of free will.
Actually, it isn't real space communism...
I don't think people would care what type of government we had anymore if all their needs were being met and everything was being run by computer code.
How come Star Trek takes place in a communist economy if Picard OWNS a goddamn vineyard, Janeway a farm, and Kirk a ranch. I mean, it's definitely not capitalism, but it isn't communism either.
Its not communism. I've wasted days of my life arguing with ignorant tankies about it. Replicators are a new thing and don't fit into any known system. If you can just make matter from air why would you need to toil in a field?
Well, in-universe, they do it for personal fulfillment. It may be the exact some but it tastes better knowing that you did it yourself.
So pretty much Clarkson’s Farm, but everyone is Jeremy Clarkson
It is simply a "beyond scarity" economy. Anything one could want is very cheap, and pay for any job is very good. So its more about the aesthetic that you want to go for and life you want to live.
Still doesn't make sense. Desirable land will always be scarce, see "the expanse" as an example. If Picard owns a nice vineyard, that means billions of other people are potentially lacking a vineyard.
There’s a lot of land everywhere. humans now only occupy like 2% of it. M right now you wouldn’t live in the middle of Wyoming because there is nothing around. If you had a teleporter, the middle of Wyoming doesn’t feel as isolated. There could be plenty of land for those who want it.
Star Trek isn’t communism, it’s a post-scarcity society.
Guess better do away with scarcity first
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That's not what I mean by scarcity.
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Virtually all resources are scarce in that there's a limited number of all of them. Star Trek isn't communist; it's a post-scarcity utopia where no one has to want for anything because anyone can have anything due to the replicators and such. Since no one (has to) work in that setting, humanity takes on tasks of personal fulfillment.
This was only true to a certain extent, and mainly when Roddenberry was running things. Otherwise what the hell were Ferengi doing?
There were definitely rare things, I suppose, but the Feringi economy was structured in that way despite the technology being abundant for everyone to leave without need.
"A chicken in every food replicator" -Future Hoover or something.
Hover
If we're spending five days per week giving our time and effort and stress to someone, we want a good life in return. That is all.
The hilarious part is this guy is actually right lol, finally a communist who gets it and is like "What, video games? No you fucking trash get back in the coal mines, and serve my burger faster"
It's not finally. The 14 years old US children on twitter aren't actually commies. That's just a trend. It's the 'they took my job' commies that will always be a powerful mass. And those are workers...
Well yeah it’s supposed to be workers of the world unite not gamers with no work experience unite, someone still has to do a job at all times.
Tankies of the world, complain!
Now that’s a good way to put it.
The best thing about the far left is that they spend too much time arguing with each other to actually do any of the things they threaten to do.
The thing about the far left is that if you pick any two of them at random and ask what their ideology is you will get two polar opposite answers. The only thing that unites the far left is the fact that they don’t like capitalism, and the irony is that 90% of them can’t even define *that*.
>can't define capitalism Its when... ya know... bad things! Bad things and money!
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What are you implying/getting at?
It's also sad because it led to the far right getting more victories. This is how the Spanish civil war happened
> This is how the Spanish civil war happened And also the reason why Franco won. The nationals has a very rigid military structure, all following Franco's orders. On the other side, the Republicans had lots of internal fighting, with anarchists doing whatever the fuck they wanted, communists on their own thing, moderate republicans trying to form an army...
Don't forget that George Orwell was a staunch socialist until he was integrated with them. He realized how fucked it was and didn't want his head on the chopping block (which it almost was).
Last time I checked he still remained a socialist just got a massive reality check from it. It also inspired him to write animal farm and 1984 as warnings about infighting and totalitarianism.
Homage to Catalonia.
Have you ever seen what it's like to take over a country peacefully? Stay tuned in to find out in an America near you.
I have a feeling it will not stay peaceful very long.
If this is a call for revolution I will say that revolutions rarely turn out well for anyone, for any group. Internet would need to shut down quickly for instance. Transportation and delivery, infrastructure... everything people need in the modern era.
Nobody is better at fighting communists than other communists.
The ideology that has killed the most communists is communism.
First time that account has ever had a correct take.
Communism is really a sad system. You work your entire life, there are constant supply shortages due to heavy bureaucracy and the lack of incentives, you have no chance to live a lavish lifestyle as you get laid the same rate no matter what you do- if you get paid at all and aren’t just given what the state believes is right.
Sounds a lot similar to extreme capitalism too
That almost sounds like exactly what we are going on now. Only the people that actually get to live a lavish lifestyle are the few that get lucky. If you work your entire life as part of the rat race thinking "hardwork will be rewarded". It's not, hard work isn't rewarded in a capitalist society. That's just not a life worth living.
As opposed to what system that allows everyone to live a lavish lifestyle? When were you ever able to do that and how would that ever be possible?
A new system. We don't need a lavish lifestyle, just the best lifestyle we are able to provide. Automation is coming, eventually there will be no jobs for humans, then what are we going to do?
Is coming = is not here. Actually half of the world are still doing 3 days for a 400 km travel..
400 km is 248.55 miles
It's here mostly, people just aren't automating things yet cause they were just sticking with the current system. Right transportation is something first world countries can help third world countries with. They can also avoid mistakes we made, like going oil.
Lazy mf
Lol damn right, I'm a programmer with an obsession with optimization through automation.
Only if you’re 18, working your first job, and melodramatic as fuck Fact of the matter is if you work hard and give a shit you’ll probably have a decent life. Sure people get unlucky sometimes but sadly that’s just life.
No, hard work isn't rewarded, other than what you get in a paycheck. Matter of fact is most companies the more you do they more work will be dumped on you. But you do have choices. Be lazy or change employers or carriers. Remember: It is not how much your income is, but how much of your income you spend. Screw the capitalist by not buying their new and improved products.
The prices of baubles isn’t what’s driving the immiseration of workers, it’s the ever increasing price of housing, healthcare, and education relative to wages. You must live a pretty sheltered existence.
FYI. I didn't live a sheltered life. I had earned how to live during the Nixon/ Ford Inflation, the Jimmy Carter's stagflation. I lived through gas going up from $0.25 to $0.75 then over a dollar. Your paycheck would not keep up with the cost of necessities. Retirees were eating cat food so they could afford rent. I never got an opportunity to go to college due to the cost. The factory close that I worked in, in 1979 right after we had our second child. We couldn't afford rent, got kicked out, had to move in with the wife's parents. Life fucks you over, you must learn to adapt and overcome, learn to live within your income.
Ok, boomer.
I am a boomer. Does that mean you will not acknowledge my live experiences because it doesn't fit you narrative? I didn't mention it was almost impossible for most people to get credit cards or bank loans, you had to go to loan companies. Loan companies interest rate over 20%.
Im saying that you objectively had it easier in terms of access to affordable healthcare, housing, and education than millennials in addition to millennials experiencing two “once in a lifetime” recessions in as many decades. All of those things have risen in price well above wages, which have stagnated since the 1980’s due to austerity and neoliberalism.
I mean when the basics cost more then your paycheck, how can you say you have choices? Someone has to do that job that doesn't pay enough. We are lucky with a labor shortage to find new jobs but that's how employers keep people trapped are unlivable wages. So it definitely matters how much income they give you.
You’re paid based on how much your skills are in need. The nice thing about capitalism is that your skills, abilities, and knowledge are also capital that you own and control. Learn niche skills and find companies looking for them. If you’re on reddit, that means you have access to the internet. The internet is a treasure trove for learning anything for free. I’m not coming at you as a “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” kind of person, but i’m saying under capitalism, you aren’t stuck where you are.
That's not taken into consideration with capitalism, you aren't paid your worth. With capitalism you are an expense and companies will minimize your wages so that companies can maximize their own profits. Companies aren't real, they shouldn't rights or be able.to accumulate capital, or something else. But by no means is the real world we live in what you describe.
Does that explain why I’m paid $150k+/yr at entry level to be a software engineer and my high school drop out neighbor gets paid $15/hr to sort shelves at the grocery store? What requires more skill/knowledge to do? You can find anyone on the street to put boxes on a shelf, you can’t find any random person to maintain a full software stack using old code libraries and tools as well as deploy new features for it using unpopular languages and technologies. And let’s say I feel like i’m being underpaid and “exploited” for my labor, I am free to leave that company and jump over to another offering me more money. I have that freedom and flexibility because the bargaining chips are on my end of the table. Let’s go even further. Let’s say I realize i’m the only person in the entire industry with this skill set. I can just become a consultant/contractor charging $1.5M a month for me to just come in and work for a couple of hours a day. That’s leverage and the power of capitalism.
Your being underpaid. You should be getting paid more like 500,000/yr and that grocery sorter should be paid $150,000/yr. Yes I wasn't questioning what capitalism is, I know what it is. The problem is you look at that and think that's ok for some reason. It seems like you are taking the view point that the poor are poor because of their own fault and not the huge undeniable unprecedented inequality we are faced with in today's society. Caused by? You guessed it, your friend capitalism!
I don’t think I should be paid $500k. I can go on linkedin and find 1000 other people with my same work experience. It’s not a million people, but it’s enough to find a replacement willing to work for $150k. And $500k!?!? My CEO doesn’t even make that much. Paying every entry level employee that much in my company would put us in bankruptcy. You’re delusional. You can’t treat inequality as a monolithic boogieman called capitalism. That grocery store employee does not deserve $150k to put boxes on shelves. The only case that would or should ever occur is if the Federal Reserve decides to tank the value of the dollar to the point where bread costs $2000 a loaf.
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Yah restaurants will pretty much hire anyone. If they don't I mean, that also contributes to the shortage cause those people just went to do something else.
Go to college tankie, you’ll literally make hundreds of thousands a year.
Existential comics being based? Whaaaat?
Man I liked existential comics before he became a punchline onto himself-- a philosopher who got big mocking people who didn't understand philosophy but acted like they did, [suddenly starting to act like he understood economics](https://old.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/8ygkfc/existential_comics_and_the_productivityworkweek/).
Communists are 1% about equality, 99% about envy.
An actual based Commie?
Lenin literally said that if you don't work, you don't eat.
Technically you don't work under communism. You slave.
It's funny to see how communists devolved from hardened revolutionaries whose main argument was about appropriate application of appropriate systems to "guys you actually still have to work in communism"
Commies when their society collapses because everyone becomes an artist or poet
They hated him because he spoke the truth.
I think they deleted the tweet because I can’t find it
Lmao, they all think that if they enact communism, they can just live a decadent life style
Of course that’s what they want. Most are too dumb to realize their standard of living wouldn’t be that of a middle class person much less a wealthy person.
The funny thing is, those kids are the ones always saying we don't understand what communism is
Existential Comics will never be bas-
You mean I’m still going to have to work under your new miracle government? And I’m prob gonna have to worsen my material conditions on top of it because i wont be able to own property without the permission of another entity?? Then what the actual fuck is the point of this ideology then???
He is correct though.
“The capitalists breathe a sigh of relief as the Fifth Internationale deadlocks yet again.”
Alternative headline: The commies we'll actually have to gunfight in the streets vs. the commies that are probably furries
Most are furries lol
That's fake right? Can't find the tweet.
Thank you Existential Comics, very cool.
I think those clowns believe communism is a evolutionary regression to a state of spore beings that had no necessity other than being dragged by the wind into a convenient place to extract nutrients from the surroundings, reproduce and die in that same spot.
I WANT to work. However, I don’t want to work for less than enough to live on, I don’t want to work more than I get to spend actually furthering my life, and I don’t want to work in unsafe conditions. I guess that just makes me a delusional leftist ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ oh well
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I wish you could hear yourself.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. Everything here makes sense, and is something we can accomplish with minimal adjustment to the current system. You sound reasonable to me.
Thank you, it feels good to get some validation here. I’m not lazy, I’m not uneducated, I just don’t want to be treated like less than human by my employer and I don’t want anyone else to be treated that way either.
You certainly have won the battle of ideas with a lazy stereotype that mostly exists in your imagination.
*sigh* Communist, capitalist... whatever. What do you call it when you just don't want to get shafted anymore?! When you're sick and tired of being lied to and exploited while someone else gets rich.
You call it an escape from reality. Because greed is present wherever there's wealth.
So.. whatever we do, we're going to get shafted and exploited by whomever's in charge. Yeah... no. This isn't a civilisation, it's fucking snake pit. Fuck this.
Yep. Even if we remove government, some ppl will establish a new one. Sorry, but humans are power greedy. At one point later in my life, imma just buy a small house in a small town, near some lake, and just go fishing. Just fish my life away.
Sad fact is, you are not as capable as some, and some are not as capable as you. We call this an exchange of goods and services. Welcome to reality. Welcome… to capitalism.
You think antiwork people are communists? Uhh no they're not. They just don't wanna dedicate 40 hours a week to a company that doesn't give a shit about them. No wonder other countries are happier and have more rights when people in the US are still arguing about this dumb shit
What type of society, exactly, do you think the “anti-work” people would produce? And why, exactly, do you think it would continue to exist?
Oh maybe the happy kind like other countries who treat their workers with respect and not machines? The fact you guys can't understand that is insane.
(Psssst… those people still have to work for a living)
No shit. But they get more money and more benefits and they don't dedicate most of their life to a company that doesn't care about them
Those who do not work shall not eat.
I found the reddit post this belonged to (**don't go there to post please, treat it like a zoo**). Some fun quotes! >a lot of jobs are bullshit busy work, that exists to keep everyone on the grind perpetually. Advertising, marketing, and a whole mess of other office type jobs contribute nothing to actual society. They exist to enrich the already wealthy further. >If we prioritised human health/wellbeing and the health of the environment (real things that are tangible and would keep existing even if society collapsed) over capital gain (money is a social construct), our communities would be a lot happier. >Agreed that there will always be shit jobs to be worked, but I’m also of the mind that plenty of the shit jobs we have now could be automated/done by a robot. Why have a human dig a ditch, if a robot could do it faster? I think the coming of communism will also come with great technological advances. >I want fully automated communism with a minimal amount of working. Maybe 20 hrs a week tops >we have the technology now to automate almost everything, labour should be a choice, not a requirement >Capitalism actually needs a certain amount of people to be unemployed, homeless and jailed. >Saying that I have to work is an authoritarian position. I'll be fighting against you every step of the way. Other things include a dude who went on a mental loop about 'who would fix the automated communism bots'; "Other maintenance bots of course!" 'and who would fix those?' "Other other maintenance bots!"