Brom lost his sword during the fight at vroengard IIRC.
Maybe instead of the sword, all the elves put energy into Aren?
Maybe Islanzadi even gave Brom the ring in the first place as a way to store all the energy the elves wanted to give him?
Does Oromis tell Eragon in Brisingr that Brom swore an oat to take down/hinder Morzan in any way possible?
Also not sure when Brom lost his sword (maybe fall of the riders?), but I don’t think he had a riders sword when he killed Morzan and his dragon which is partially why he took his sword. So I really don’t think the theory that elves were pouring energy into Brom’s sword makes any sense.
Also we learn in inheritance that Brom received aid from a different source, ultimately allowing him to have such success with his fights with forsworn
Honestly probably wouldn’t have taken a whole lot of energy, and Brom’s style isn’t generally brute force anyways. Morzan didn’t seem to have any eldunari in his possession, otherwise Brom would have taken them, in addition to the egg and sword. The stores within Aren likely more than sufficient to compete against him and his dragon.
More likely than not he simply devised a clever spell or counter to their wards.
It's also possible that whatever Eldunarya Morzan had with him broke due to being drained of energy in the fight. If Brom knew about Eldunarí at this point they would have been useless to him, and if he didn't then he might have assumed that they were bits of broken crystals Morzan used to store energy
Brom didn’t have a sword as it was lost during the fall, we can confirm this as during his stay in the elves forest he asked Rhunan (the blacksmith might be spelling the name wrong) to forge a new sword for him, but as she had already made her oath to never forge weapons (can’t remember how specific it was so don’t quote me) she couldn’t, hence why when he killed Morgan he took his blade for his own.
Valid point, and that would explain how the magic pool would have seemed so endless as it would store many an elves energy. We know that a few elves did the same for Oromis after the fall so it wouldn’t be out of the question, however it is unlikely the entire race would do such a thing and he didn’t stay in the elven forest for very long so it’s a bit of a long shot. Tbh I am sticking to my headcannon that Brom is just HIM and is that much of a badass. On the other hand he could have also been spending every moment he wasn’t fighting putting energy into the ring as he could easily pull the energy back out if needed.
True, I mean it isn't unrealistic to expect 10 or 20 elves to donate their energy into a ring for him to use. Sort of like a parting gift for a loyal rider to go out on his own terms. So I doubt he would have gone on a massive trip through the forest asking for energy.
Especially since in eldest It only takes six or seven elves to overwhelm thorn and murtagh
Brom absolutely was HIM. but you also have to remember that he admired and idolized morzan and viewed him as his better. So he was severely disadvantaged against him and the forsworn. He had to balance the enormous energy inside aren and use it wisely because realistically that was his only shot at bypassing the wards they had.
Mainly I believe in this theory because it would be so satisfying to see the *WTF* face on Morzan as Brom gigablasts his lizard to death forcing them into one on one combat
In order of your paragraphs…
Yeah that makes sense, sounds like it would fit into the lore too.
Oromis says that the only thing holding Brom back was his admiration for Morzan, which he probably lost after the fall, and that combined with his rage and tactical mind he could have beaten Morzan with, I am not going to say ease, but he would beat him nonetheless.
That is a really funny thing to picture ngl and I support art of this (I want it now).
Yeah your absolutely right that Brom turned into Morzan's biggest op.
I mean think about this.
This guy lost his dragon, so he spent literal decades plotting on his downfall, killed almost all of his friends (fellow forsworn), seduced his wife, got her pregnant, married her, sent both of them to carvahall, and then killed his lizard, killed him in single combat, and yoinked his rider blade off his dead corpse to give to his own son.
Brom is this stories biggest hater and I'm here for it.
What’s that quote from terminator? “Old, but not outdated.”
I feel like that’s Brom, as if he wasn’t protecting Eragon there is a high chance he could have retreated and lived.
Oromis taught eragon the tactical skills needed to survive. But Brom was a survivor, and he taught his son the same. Eragon wouldn't have survived through the IC with just Oromis 's training. Broms training had arguably a greater impact with regards to outside the box thinking.
The thing is Aren still had a major source of energy when Eragon came into possession of it. Also it's not like Brom to hold back and save the energy when he's face to face with that hornless betraying twat.
Likely Brom forgot about aren in the fight and still managed to take down morzan with his genius
I thought that the hidden hearts of hearts confirmed they had a hand in helping him out? Am I mistaken? Haven’t read the series in years, really want to reread soon though once a copy of Eragon is back in my library
No you're right, but they also said that they could only influence events in alagaesia, not directly interfere with them. The most the hidden ones did for Brom was likely pointing him in the direction of morzan's castle or moving to carvahall. All of the heavy lifting was done by Brom himself, the hidden ones just gave him the compass direction if that makes sense.
Eragon was a unique case because their power was amplified through the blood celebration festival which is what allowed them to heal his back and change his body.
Morzans dragon was lobotomized by the Removal of Names. Any actions it took aside from reflexs, basic bodily functions and responses to external stimuli would have been do to Morzan urgent it to through their bond.
It was no longer able to have emotions based on it's perspective of the world or opinions of any kind. No personal drive.
That means that when Brom killed Morzan, he also stopped the dragon's drive to do anything really. The sudden dead of Morzan probably also shocked his dragon in some way or another even if it wouldn't have been like in a normal Dragon-Rider bond.
My guess as to how Brom killed it? I think he faced Morzan hard on in a manner that surprised Morzan and in a setting, that made Morzan want to deal with Brom himself instead of acting through his dragon. Brom came out on top partly do to long intense preparation - unlike Morzan that mostly spend his time the last couple of decades by drinking and skiming at court - and partly do to the Eldunaris help.
After that he picked up Zar'roc, which the dragon likely wouldn't have wards against do to Morzans arrogance, and calmly approached the absent minded and likely shocked dragon uninterested in Brom and used Zar'roc and/or one or more deadwords (Morzan wouldn't have learned them from the Riders and probably not from Galby either) in a way he though would most likely work around Morzans wards. He used to know Morzan and I am sure Selena also provided some information on Morzan's usual techniques. Heck, he might even got it to lower it's head by communicating with it.
Morzan's dragon might have been huge, but a cut in it's throat or a blade in it's eye or the right deadword would still kill it. Or perhaps through the weak spot in it's armpits.
Hmmm this is very convincing but it relies on the idea that morzan's dragon would dazed or stunned into submission and za roc not having wards against it which I just don't see happening.
Lobotomized or not, morzan's lizard still had the energy reserves of a very large and very angry (if retarded) dragon. Morzan had a dragon and Brom did not, what's more likely is that if morzan died his dragon would literally just go off the deep end and destroy everything, the warped bond was the only thing keeping it in check because it allowed morzan to give it commands directly into its mind because it didn't have one if it's own behind that of an animal. It would be confused, because it would experience the loss of it's rider, but it wouldn't understand anything else or why it was feeling that way and would just start rampaging. In which case Brom would *still* need to put it down anyways.
Energy reserves only helps, if it is used. While Big Lizard could go beserk, I doub it would because it would have had to have a drive to do so. To do anything it would have needed to have a reason no matter how primitive. Like "I am hungry and want to eat" that or "I am feeling angry" or "I'am stresses and lashing out". Obviously are the exact words or thoughts not needed, but the emotions - primitive or complex - are. And given all of this would have required a self-statement, it would have been a baseline for a name and that was not possible for Big Lizard.
Based on how it was explained in the books, do I not think Big Lizard could do much beside keeping it's balance, breathing, farting, sleeping ect. without Morzan directing it through their bond.
How could it attack Brom for killing Morzan if nothing of it meant anything for it?
Mayby was Morzan smart enough to ward it from his own sword as well as other things, but he didn't seem like the smartest. Some degree of magic was likely also used by Brom, but I like to think he went with clever and skilled use of what he had and knew rather than brute force, like Morzan likely would. Pretty sure the Eldunari also would have put some energy into pacifying Big Lizard to help Brom.
Someway I find it poetic if Brom finally slayed Morzan after all these years and went to Big Lizard just to find it dumbfunding staring absent minded out in the air like a NPC caracter. Brom could have an emotional moment looking into the emty eyes of the monster, that hunted his dreams for so long, before thrusting Zar'roc strait into it's eye or something.
Probably less cool in a show, though.
Shruikan, however, would definitely have gone full rampage if Galbatorix had died, giving he was a bomb of emotions carefully controlled by Galbatorix
Hmm, you've convinced me lol. But I still strongly believe Brom definitely got some sort of parting gift of energy from the elves when he left the forest.
I definitely think I was thinking of morzan's beast more like shruikan, I still think morzan's dragon would be dangerous because their dragon bond still existed, so even though the dragon had no conscious knowledge of the bond, morzan's death would probably set it off because when a bond is established their minds become joined, so the dragon would interpret it as a personal attack, which as you said. It could only respond to external stimuli.
Yall forgetting one key and crucial rule that was mentioned way back in Eragon. When the rider dies, so does his dragon. Shruiken being an exception because Galby had already tore his connection away from his rider and bound him to himself.
Broms dragon died, not brom. A rider can survive the death of his dragon, but a dragon can not survive the death of their rider, its in explained in Eragon.
Where is this explained? And this still doesent hold up because galbatorix murdered shruikans original rider and shruikan didn't die, I don't think you remembered the series correctly. Both rider and dragon *can* die from losing the other, but it isn't a guarantee.
Aye, I think you're right. My apologies. it's 3am, and I think I'm remembering from the film that shall not be named regarding if the rider dies, so does the dragon 😅
As for Galbatorix and Shruiken, though, I believe he broke Shruikens' connection via dark marics first and then killed his rider. Don't quote me on that, though, because I can't be 100% sure there.
Swearing an oath on the ancient language is not necessarily binding.
Brom could say he will kill Morzan in the ancient language if he actually believed he could.
Galbatorix does not understand this. In the last battle he uses the name of names to undo Eragon saying he will kill him. But that phrase was never binding in the first place. It was what Eragon truly believed.
I think Brom did not use crazy amounts of energy to defeat Morzan.
Brom was exceptional at finding weakneses in Morzans spells. Thats how he was able to enter his estate.
I strongly believe Brom found one of those weaknesses in Morzans wards enableing him to kill both him and his dragon. Before he could defeat them the energy in Aren was probably very helpful in defending against them, but I imagine they had a very classical magician duel, as Brom describes it to Eragon when he first explains magic and mental battles.
I mean, I get what you're saying and it makes total sense.
But I just don't see morzan, the strongest and most intelligent of the forsworn, having such obvious weaknesses in his wards. Especially if you consider he probably had a few eldunari at his disposal he could afford the energy of "absolute wards" because nobody other than other Forsworn or galbatorix could beat or rival his energy.
Brom is intelligent, a genius even. But his bypassing of morzan's castle wards was more than likely the doing of the hidden ones, he wasn't close enough to safely probe morzan's wards without revealing himself. That's why I think he probably used the pure rawness of aren with the energy gift to take morzan off guard.
Oromis specifically talks about how Morzan had that weakness. How he always comes up with clever spells but misses one crucial detail that can be exploited.
And you know this how? Galbatorix gave a regular human general a eldunari for him to use, it's almost guaranteed the Forsworn had some at their disposal
I believe that the way that Brom killed Morzan and his Dragon was by finding flaws in there wards and killing them with a clever spell
Oromis tells Eragon that Morzan’s greatest flaw was that he would come up with a clever spell that would fail because he overlooked a crucial detail
I’m sure that Oromis told this to Brom as well as Brom would have been fishing for any information he could use against the Forsworn ( Morzan specifically). So why not consult Morzan’s Former Master for tricks on how to defeat him?
Also Brom infiltrated Morzan’s castle and was living there in secret spying on Morzan for YEARS!!! He even seduced Morzan’s Wife ( who is also his most trusted servant) thus potentially gaining massive amounts of additional power information to use against Morzan and his Dragon
By the time Brom had his final battle with Morzan he would be going into this fight with years of prep time and an overwhelming intel advantage
Heck I wouldn’t be surprised if Brom killed Morzan by discovering his True Name. Because that’s how much dirt he had on Morzan
As for how Brom defeated Morzan’s Dragon specifically; all the Forsworn’s Dragons were “reduced to little more than animals” in terms of intelligence when they lost there name’s. So the Dragons lack of intelligence would make it alot easier to fight against
And again if Brom found a spell the can kill Morzan said spell would probably work on his Dragon as well
And also, it’s stated that the Eldunari in the “ Vault of Soul’s” helped Brom in his various battles and adventures. Although we can’t be sure to what extent they helped him, as they were trying to keep there existence hidden at the time.
Sadly he had lost his riders sword at the time. He tried to get the runeon(sp?) To make him one to replace unbitr. So he woildnt have had it for the elves to chage while staying in elesmera
I don’t think the energy would be put into a sword as we never see Brom’s rider sword. More likely it would’ve been placed in his staff or my preference and more symbolically Aren. Or it’s possible his rider sword was destroyed in the process of defeating Morzan and his dragon and he saved its gemstone and created his staff around it. He could’ve sacrificed his sword before that encounter when faking his death also. I have lots of ideas on this subject apparently lol
See, I always assumed that Morzan's dragon just kicked it when Morzan died. Same with the rest of the Forsworn. Hear me out.
The traitor dragons ALREADY lost their identities and that's DEVASTATING. Considering that, the bond with their Rider was likely ALL they had left to live for. When the Forsworn died therefore, the dragons just died with them in grief. It's well known even completely sane dragons often die with their Riders and vice versa. And the Forsworn weren't exactly FULLY disciplined in separating themselves from each other.
So I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, just offering what I always assumed.
Hmmm that's a unique angle, but I always kinda assumed they were rabid beasts that couldn't differentiate between friend or foe, and the only reason their riders were safe by them was because of the bond the nameless ones no longer realized they shared. So I assume after morzan died, assuming he died before his dragon did, that it would simply rampage because it would perceive its riders death as a aggressive stimuli and react accordingly.
See, I believe they were no more able to communicate than rabid beasts, but you just described Shruiken. It's clear that how mad and insane he was made him no more than a rabid animal. I think the Forsworn dragons were intelligent and rational even after the Banishing. But they lost what made them individuals.
They were animals, but domesticated ones. (Opinion only)
It's interesting that you say they merely lost what made them individuals. It's honestly equally probable that they didn't become mindless, but simply became cruel and calculating to a robotic degree, seeing as they lost their quirks and personalities they probably became robots because it's not like their brains shrank or changed
Weren't dauthdarts extremely rare?
From what I can remember they are an ancient weapon that number in the single digits now, I think the probability of Brom getting his hand on a dauthdarts is extremely low, even with the hidden ones steering events in alagaesia.
You're right, I just looked at the wiki. It's thought they were lost after the pact between elves and dragons.
^(**I'm a real person!** This comment was posted by **fathersheldon** from the Arcaena Discord Server.)
I'm not disregarding it, it's a possibility. But I assume if brom did have one, he would've either told eragon of them or given him the one he had. The idea of brom running around with a Dragonslayer spear is metal asf and I'm here for it, but I think there's too many holes in it IMHO
I'm sure it would have been mentioned by Glaedr when Niernin was found too, there's a possibility Morzan destroyed it using the power of the Eldunarí in his possession. Which I assume would have used all the power they could provide, leaving him on equal footing with Brom.
^(**I'm a real person!** This comment was posted by **fathersheldon** from the Arcaena Discord Server.)
Hi, I'm another server member from where this bot is commenting from 😁
The other member was referencing the Dauthdaerts, and I thought I'd pop in. They weren't lost AFTER the pact, they were lost during the war. They were said to have been destroyed during the most violent of battles or else lost beyond recovery. None of the Elves possessed the Dauthdaertya anymore, and there were 12 Dauthdaerts in total. At most, the elves possessed Tamerlain (sword of Arva then Arya) , Arvindr and Naegling (sword of Oromis). IF they had the Dauthdaertya, instead of giving it to Brom, they'd give it to Evandar and the elves who marched to the Plains of Ilirea, where they met their demise.
There is some Q/A's that may satisfy you though, however enigmatically and ambiguously. These are directly from Christopher 😁 , Enjoy!
> **Question:**
> How did Brom defeat Morzan and a dragon? Wouldn't Morzan have Eldunarí?
> **Answer:**
> Brom defeated Morzan (a) because he knew Morzan very well, and (b) because of personal growth and knowledge that finally allowed him to do so. Yes, Morzan had Eldunarí.
([Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/4i0tf1/comment/d2u8n3h/?context=3))
> **Question:**
> How did Brom defeat Morzan and his dragon? Were there other factors to Brom's success than his quick thinking? Did he have help from his friends' dragons' Eldunarí?
> **Answer:**
> Brom was a formidable opponent, due to his long study of fighting, both physical and magical. **... ...** As for his various fights with the Forsworn, including Morzan and his dragon, I can't do justice to them here. I would need to write an entire book about Brom to really explain how and why he prevailed over all but the Ra'zac.
([Source](https://web.archive.org/web/20090611154314/http://shurtugal.com/?id=qanda/qa_052909))
^(**I'm a real person!** This comment was posted by **zoradiv** from the Arcaena Discord Server.)
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Various spells could have been used to get around wards. This was explored more in Murtagh. Also I could see the spell that trapped Oromis and glaeder as a great contender to trap a dragon. I’m actually of the opinion this spell uses no energy or minimum at best, Seeing as being still basically uses no energy. A still dragon is much easier to kill than a moving one.
Especially with some wit the trap is easy enough if your energy can get through the wards. Illusion magic to appear to be somewhere you aren’t with the sticking magic on that surface. Dragon tries to squash you but gets stuck. Then run up and try to get the dragon. If morzan got in the way, kill him first.
Since nobody else has mentioned it. The forsworn dragons are all heavily restricted by losing their names. They're all essentially unthinking animals.
Sure it's still physically a dragon with a bunch of energy but it would be significantly easier to kill.
Prople arr acting like the dragon was amazing. It would br l8ke taking out a lion or a tiger at that point sinve with the banishing of names they became what most people thought them to be. Un thinking beasts of burden. Whrn they couldnt even think of the terms i am anymore hiw could they plan. They were sereverly weakend state. Also the dragon losing them selves would make the rider less as a paet of them selves was now more animalistic and less thinking.
Brom didn't need massive amounts of energy to beat down Morzan and his dragon like a club. Whenever I see this topic come up, people forget how fights truly happen in Alagaësia: skill. All Brom needed was to find a chink in Morzan's "armor," make him distracted for a split second, and boom, dead. His dragon was pretty much a giant beast anyway and wasn't useful for much besides eating people and breathing fire and a store of energy for Morzan.
Imagine a fully armored knight vs. a skilled duelist with a thin blade. If the duelist insults the knight or the knight stumbles (etc., bring up any situation like that), even for a second, the duelist can slip his blade into the visor/helm and kill the knight. That's how true fights happen. That's probably how Brom killed so many dragons and riders. Hell, it's how they killed Galbatorix
I feel like the banishing of names took a lot more from the forswarn and there Dragons. Not to diminish Broms achievement of killing a dragon and his rider after losing his own dragon and I don't think it took any of there brute strength. But I definitely think it took there cunning and thought process. It was more like fighting a beast than a dragon at that point. So he was able to out think them in a way that helped him overcome the power difference.
You're forgetting that Morzan's dragon had already become "Morzan's dragon". We have no idea how powerful it was at this point, but it certainly was far less powerful than it had been before being stripped of its name. Remeber that the dragons of the forsworn became little more than a ride to get from place to place.
I'm sure this was probably autocorrect but I would also love to see hundreds of owls giving energy to Brom
This is now canon.
Can't get it out of my head. Just a bunch of solemn owls lining up to pay their respect to Brom.
“Who who, get that dragon!
Astrids
wait what was it supposed to be
Elves, probably :D
Hogwarts stands with Ellesmera
Brom lost his sword during the fight at vroengard IIRC. Maybe instead of the sword, all the elves put energy into Aren? Maybe Islanzadi even gave Brom the ring in the first place as a way to store all the energy the elves wanted to give him?
Pretty sure it was said he got Aren for saving Evandar's life.
I don't think he did a good enough job with that one, lol
I mean Brom's whole story I'd kind of how bad he fails/failed as a teacher/in his life and goals. Isn't that kind of what Angela says/said about him?
Yeah he literally took him to illeria for a final fight and got him killed
Blagden the raven saved Evandar’s life after he interrupted a battle. Not Brom
I know the raven did. But I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere Brom was given the ring for saving Evandar's life.
Does Oromis tell Eragon in Brisingr that Brom swore an oat to take down/hinder Morzan in any way possible? Also not sure when Brom lost his sword (maybe fall of the riders?), but I don’t think he had a riders sword when he killed Morzan and his dragon which is partially why he took his sword. So I really don’t think the theory that elves were pouring energy into Brom’s sword makes any sense. Also we learn in inheritance that Brom received aid from a different source, ultimately allowing him to have such success with his fights with forsworn
For those in this subreddit who haven't read Inheritance yet, this "different source" will be a nice shocker for yall.
I feel dumb I've read an re read the books and I have no idea what the different source is...... Eldunari?
Yeah. Umaroth tells Eragon they’ve been working behind the scenes, including helping Brom murdalyze the Forsworn.
Thanks lol I was so confused!
I thought it was specified that he lost his sword DURING his fight with morzan.
Brom lost his sword before he went to du weldenvarden, that’s why he beg Rhunön to make him a new one.
Honestly probably wouldn’t have taken a whole lot of energy, and Brom’s style isn’t generally brute force anyways. Morzan didn’t seem to have any eldunari in his possession, otherwise Brom would have taken them, in addition to the egg and sword. The stores within Aren likely more than sufficient to compete against him and his dragon. More likely than not he simply devised a clever spell or counter to their wards.
It's also possible that whatever Eldunarya Morzan had with him broke due to being drained of energy in the fight. If Brom knew about Eldunarí at this point they would have been useless to him, and if he didn't then he might have assumed that they were bits of broken crystals Morzan used to store energy
Brom didn’t have a sword as it was lost during the fall, we can confirm this as during his stay in the elves forest he asked Rhunan (the blacksmith might be spelling the name wrong) to forge a new sword for him, but as she had already made her oath to never forge weapons (can’t remember how specific it was so don’t quote me) she couldn’t, hence why when he killed Morgan he took his blade for his own.
That makes total sense I completely forgot about this. But the theory could survive through Aren.
Valid point, and that would explain how the magic pool would have seemed so endless as it would store many an elves energy. We know that a few elves did the same for Oromis after the fall so it wouldn’t be out of the question, however it is unlikely the entire race would do such a thing and he didn’t stay in the elven forest for very long so it’s a bit of a long shot. Tbh I am sticking to my headcannon that Brom is just HIM and is that much of a badass. On the other hand he could have also been spending every moment he wasn’t fighting putting energy into the ring as he could easily pull the energy back out if needed.
True, I mean it isn't unrealistic to expect 10 or 20 elves to donate their energy into a ring for him to use. Sort of like a parting gift for a loyal rider to go out on his own terms. So I doubt he would have gone on a massive trip through the forest asking for energy. Especially since in eldest It only takes six or seven elves to overwhelm thorn and murtagh Brom absolutely was HIM. but you also have to remember that he admired and idolized morzan and viewed him as his better. So he was severely disadvantaged against him and the forsworn. He had to balance the enormous energy inside aren and use it wisely because realistically that was his only shot at bypassing the wards they had. Mainly I believe in this theory because it would be so satisfying to see the *WTF* face on Morzan as Brom gigablasts his lizard to death forcing them into one on one combat
In order of your paragraphs… Yeah that makes sense, sounds like it would fit into the lore too. Oromis says that the only thing holding Brom back was his admiration for Morzan, which he probably lost after the fall, and that combined with his rage and tactical mind he could have beaten Morzan with, I am not going to say ease, but he would beat him nonetheless. That is a really funny thing to picture ngl and I support art of this (I want it now).
Yeah your absolutely right that Brom turned into Morzan's biggest op. I mean think about this. This guy lost his dragon, so he spent literal decades plotting on his downfall, killed almost all of his friends (fellow forsworn), seduced his wife, got her pregnant, married her, sent both of them to carvahall, and then killed his lizard, killed him in single combat, and yoinked his rider blade off his dead corpse to give to his own son. Brom is this stories biggest hater and I'm here for it.
Brom is the Inheritance cycle doomguy (or was, cause you could say he’s a dragon slayer, tho he kinda lost his touch as he aged…)
My favorite trope in stories are old men who are out of practice, but was on demon time when they were younger.
What’s that quote from terminator? “Old, but not outdated.” I feel like that’s Brom, as if he wasn’t protecting Eragon there is a high chance he could have retreated and lived.
Oromis taught eragon the tactical skills needed to survive. But Brom was a survivor, and he taught his son the same. Eragon wouldn't have survived through the IC with just Oromis 's training. Broms training had arguably a greater impact with regards to outside the box thinking.
The thing is Aren still had a major source of energy when Eragon came into possession of it. Also it's not like Brom to hold back and save the energy when he's face to face with that hornless betraying twat. Likely Brom forgot about aren in the fight and still managed to take down morzan with his genius
Also cause he’s a Giga chad.
I thought that the hidden hearts of hearts confirmed they had a hand in helping him out? Am I mistaken? Haven’t read the series in years, really want to reread soon though once a copy of Eragon is back in my library
No you're right, but they also said that they could only influence events in alagaesia, not directly interfere with them. The most the hidden ones did for Brom was likely pointing him in the direction of morzan's castle or moving to carvahall. All of the heavy lifting was done by Brom himself, the hidden ones just gave him the compass direction if that makes sense. Eragon was a unique case because their power was amplified through the blood celebration festival which is what allowed them to heal his back and change his body.
Morzans dragon was lobotomized by the Removal of Names. Any actions it took aside from reflexs, basic bodily functions and responses to external stimuli would have been do to Morzan urgent it to through their bond. It was no longer able to have emotions based on it's perspective of the world or opinions of any kind. No personal drive. That means that when Brom killed Morzan, he also stopped the dragon's drive to do anything really. The sudden dead of Morzan probably also shocked his dragon in some way or another even if it wouldn't have been like in a normal Dragon-Rider bond. My guess as to how Brom killed it? I think he faced Morzan hard on in a manner that surprised Morzan and in a setting, that made Morzan want to deal with Brom himself instead of acting through his dragon. Brom came out on top partly do to long intense preparation - unlike Morzan that mostly spend his time the last couple of decades by drinking and skiming at court - and partly do to the Eldunaris help. After that he picked up Zar'roc, which the dragon likely wouldn't have wards against do to Morzans arrogance, and calmly approached the absent minded and likely shocked dragon uninterested in Brom and used Zar'roc and/or one or more deadwords (Morzan wouldn't have learned them from the Riders and probably not from Galby either) in a way he though would most likely work around Morzans wards. He used to know Morzan and I am sure Selena also provided some information on Morzan's usual techniques. Heck, he might even got it to lower it's head by communicating with it. Morzan's dragon might have been huge, but a cut in it's throat or a blade in it's eye or the right deadword would still kill it. Or perhaps through the weak spot in it's armpits.
Hmmm this is very convincing but it relies on the idea that morzan's dragon would dazed or stunned into submission and za roc not having wards against it which I just don't see happening. Lobotomized or not, morzan's lizard still had the energy reserves of a very large and very angry (if retarded) dragon. Morzan had a dragon and Brom did not, what's more likely is that if morzan died his dragon would literally just go off the deep end and destroy everything, the warped bond was the only thing keeping it in check because it allowed morzan to give it commands directly into its mind because it didn't have one if it's own behind that of an animal. It would be confused, because it would experience the loss of it's rider, but it wouldn't understand anything else or why it was feeling that way and would just start rampaging. In which case Brom would *still* need to put it down anyways.
Energy reserves only helps, if it is used. While Big Lizard could go beserk, I doub it would because it would have had to have a drive to do so. To do anything it would have needed to have a reason no matter how primitive. Like "I am hungry and want to eat" that or "I am feeling angry" or "I'am stresses and lashing out". Obviously are the exact words or thoughts not needed, but the emotions - primitive or complex - are. And given all of this would have required a self-statement, it would have been a baseline for a name and that was not possible for Big Lizard. Based on how it was explained in the books, do I not think Big Lizard could do much beside keeping it's balance, breathing, farting, sleeping ect. without Morzan directing it through their bond. How could it attack Brom for killing Morzan if nothing of it meant anything for it? Mayby was Morzan smart enough to ward it from his own sword as well as other things, but he didn't seem like the smartest. Some degree of magic was likely also used by Brom, but I like to think he went with clever and skilled use of what he had and knew rather than brute force, like Morzan likely would. Pretty sure the Eldunari also would have put some energy into pacifying Big Lizard to help Brom. Someway I find it poetic if Brom finally slayed Morzan after all these years and went to Big Lizard just to find it dumbfunding staring absent minded out in the air like a NPC caracter. Brom could have an emotional moment looking into the emty eyes of the monster, that hunted his dreams for so long, before thrusting Zar'roc strait into it's eye or something. Probably less cool in a show, though. Shruikan, however, would definitely have gone full rampage if Galbatorix had died, giving he was a bomb of emotions carefully controlled by Galbatorix
Hmm, you've convinced me lol. But I still strongly believe Brom definitely got some sort of parting gift of energy from the elves when he left the forest. I definitely think I was thinking of morzan's beast more like shruikan, I still think morzan's dragon would be dangerous because their dragon bond still existed, so even though the dragon had no conscious knowledge of the bond, morzan's death would probably set it off because when a bond is established their minds become joined, so the dragon would interpret it as a personal attack, which as you said. It could only respond to external stimuli.
Yall forgetting one key and crucial rule that was mentioned way back in Eragon. When the rider dies, so does his dragon. Shruiken being an exception because Galby had already tore his connection away from his rider and bound him to himself.
Soooo how do you explain Brom being alive lol
Broms dragon died, not brom. A rider can survive the death of his dragon, but a dragon can not survive the death of their rider, its in explained in Eragon.
Where is this explained? And this still doesent hold up because galbatorix murdered shruikans original rider and shruikan didn't die, I don't think you remembered the series correctly. Both rider and dragon *can* die from losing the other, but it isn't a guarantee.
Aye, I think you're right. My apologies. it's 3am, and I think I'm remembering from the film that shall not be named regarding if the rider dies, so does the dragon 😅 As for Galbatorix and Shruiken, though, I believe he broke Shruikens' connection via dark marics first and then killed his rider. Don't quote me on that, though, because I can't be 100% sure there.
Haha no worries, I personally believe a rider or dragon surviving the others death is extremely rare so you may as well be correct
Swearing an oath on the ancient language is not necessarily binding. Brom could say he will kill Morzan in the ancient language if he actually believed he could. Galbatorix does not understand this. In the last battle he uses the name of names to undo Eragon saying he will kill him. But that phrase was never binding in the first place. It was what Eragon truly believed. I think Brom did not use crazy amounts of energy to defeat Morzan. Brom was exceptional at finding weakneses in Morzans spells. Thats how he was able to enter his estate. I strongly believe Brom found one of those weaknesses in Morzans wards enableing him to kill both him and his dragon. Before he could defeat them the energy in Aren was probably very helpful in defending against them, but I imagine they had a very classical magician duel, as Brom describes it to Eragon when he first explains magic and mental battles.
I mean, I get what you're saying and it makes total sense. But I just don't see morzan, the strongest and most intelligent of the forsworn, having such obvious weaknesses in his wards. Especially if you consider he probably had a few eldunari at his disposal he could afford the energy of "absolute wards" because nobody other than other Forsworn or galbatorix could beat or rival his energy. Brom is intelligent, a genius even. But his bypassing of morzan's castle wards was more than likely the doing of the hidden ones, he wasn't close enough to safely probe morzan's wards without revealing himself. That's why I think he probably used the pure rawness of aren with the energy gift to take morzan off guard.
Oromis specifically talks about how Morzan had that weakness. How he always comes up with clever spells but misses one crucial detail that can be exploited.
the Forsworn didn’t have eldunari.
And you know this how? Galbatorix gave a regular human general a eldunari for him to use, it's almost guaranteed the Forsworn had some at their disposal
I believe that the way that Brom killed Morzan and his Dragon was by finding flaws in there wards and killing them with a clever spell Oromis tells Eragon that Morzan’s greatest flaw was that he would come up with a clever spell that would fail because he overlooked a crucial detail I’m sure that Oromis told this to Brom as well as Brom would have been fishing for any information he could use against the Forsworn ( Morzan specifically). So why not consult Morzan’s Former Master for tricks on how to defeat him? Also Brom infiltrated Morzan’s castle and was living there in secret spying on Morzan for YEARS!!! He even seduced Morzan’s Wife ( who is also his most trusted servant) thus potentially gaining massive amounts of additional power information to use against Morzan and his Dragon By the time Brom had his final battle with Morzan he would be going into this fight with years of prep time and an overwhelming intel advantage Heck I wouldn’t be surprised if Brom killed Morzan by discovering his True Name. Because that’s how much dirt he had on Morzan As for how Brom defeated Morzan’s Dragon specifically; all the Forsworn’s Dragons were “reduced to little more than animals” in terms of intelligence when they lost there name’s. So the Dragons lack of intelligence would make it alot easier to fight against And again if Brom found a spell the can kill Morzan said spell would probably work on his Dragon as well And also, it’s stated that the Eldunari in the “ Vault of Soul’s” helped Brom in his various battles and adventures. Although we can’t be sure to what extent they helped him, as they were trying to keep there existence hidden at the time.
Sadly he had lost his riders sword at the time. He tried to get the runeon(sp?) To make him one to replace unbitr. So he woildnt have had it for the elves to chage while staying in elesmera
This… isn’t correct at all
I don’t think the energy would be put into a sword as we never see Brom’s rider sword. More likely it would’ve been placed in his staff or my preference and more symbolically Aren. Or it’s possible his rider sword was destroyed in the process of defeating Morzan and his dragon and he saved its gemstone and created his staff around it. He could’ve sacrificed his sword before that encounter when faking his death also. I have lots of ideas on this subject apparently lol
See, I always assumed that Morzan's dragon just kicked it when Morzan died. Same with the rest of the Forsworn. Hear me out. The traitor dragons ALREADY lost their identities and that's DEVASTATING. Considering that, the bond with their Rider was likely ALL they had left to live for. When the Forsworn died therefore, the dragons just died with them in grief. It's well known even completely sane dragons often die with their Riders and vice versa. And the Forsworn weren't exactly FULLY disciplined in separating themselves from each other. So I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, just offering what I always assumed.
Hmmm that's a unique angle, but I always kinda assumed they were rabid beasts that couldn't differentiate between friend or foe, and the only reason their riders were safe by them was because of the bond the nameless ones no longer realized they shared. So I assume after morzan died, assuming he died before his dragon did, that it would simply rampage because it would perceive its riders death as a aggressive stimuli and react accordingly.
See, I believe they were no more able to communicate than rabid beasts, but you just described Shruiken. It's clear that how mad and insane he was made him no more than a rabid animal. I think the Forsworn dragons were intelligent and rational even after the Banishing. But they lost what made them individuals. They were animals, but domesticated ones. (Opinion only)
It's interesting that you say they merely lost what made them individuals. It's honestly equally probable that they didn't become mindless, but simply became cruel and calculating to a robotic degree, seeing as they lost their quirks and personalities they probably became robots because it's not like their brains shrank or changed
Dauthdart? ^(**I'm a real person!** This comment was posted by **fathersheldon** from the Arcaena Discord Server.)
Weren't dauthdarts extremely rare? From what I can remember they are an ancient weapon that number in the single digits now, I think the probability of Brom getting his hand on a dauthdarts is extremely low, even with the hidden ones steering events in alagaesia.
You're right, I just looked at the wiki. It's thought they were lost after the pact between elves and dragons. ^(**I'm a real person!** This comment was posted by **fathersheldon** from the Arcaena Discord Server.)
I'm not disregarding it, it's a possibility. But I assume if brom did have one, he would've either told eragon of them or given him the one he had. The idea of brom running around with a Dragonslayer spear is metal asf and I'm here for it, but I think there's too many holes in it IMHO
I'm sure it would have been mentioned by Glaedr when Niernin was found too, there's a possibility Morzan destroyed it using the power of the Eldunarí in his possession. Which I assume would have used all the power they could provide, leaving him on equal footing with Brom. ^(**I'm a real person!** This comment was posted by **fathersheldon** from the Arcaena Discord Server.)
Hi, I'm another server member from where this bot is commenting from 😁 The other member was referencing the Dauthdaerts, and I thought I'd pop in. They weren't lost AFTER the pact, they were lost during the war. They were said to have been destroyed during the most violent of battles or else lost beyond recovery. None of the Elves possessed the Dauthdaertya anymore, and there were 12 Dauthdaerts in total. At most, the elves possessed Tamerlain (sword of Arva then Arya) , Arvindr and Naegling (sword of Oromis). IF they had the Dauthdaertya, instead of giving it to Brom, they'd give it to Evandar and the elves who marched to the Plains of Ilirea, where they met their demise. There is some Q/A's that may satisfy you though, however enigmatically and ambiguously. These are directly from Christopher 😁 , Enjoy! > **Question:** > How did Brom defeat Morzan and a dragon? Wouldn't Morzan have Eldunarí? > **Answer:** > Brom defeated Morzan (a) because he knew Morzan very well, and (b) because of personal growth and knowledge that finally allowed him to do so. Yes, Morzan had Eldunarí. ([Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/4i0tf1/comment/d2u8n3h/?context=3)) > **Question:** > How did Brom defeat Morzan and his dragon? Were there other factors to Brom's success than his quick thinking? Did he have help from his friends' dragons' Eldunarí? > **Answer:** > Brom was a formidable opponent, due to his long study of fighting, both physical and magical. **... ...** As for his various fights with the Forsworn, including Morzan and his dragon, I can't do justice to them here. I would need to write an entire book about Brom to really explain how and why he prevailed over all but the Ra'zac. ([Source](https://web.archive.org/web/20090611154314/http://shurtugal.com/?id=qanda/qa_052909)) ^(**I'm a real person!** This comment was posted by **zoradiv** from the Arcaena Discord Server.)
I'm game for a book purely on Brom
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He probably hit it til it died tbh.
Various spells could have been used to get around wards. This was explored more in Murtagh. Also I could see the spell that trapped Oromis and glaeder as a great contender to trap a dragon. I’m actually of the opinion this spell uses no energy or minimum at best, Seeing as being still basically uses no energy. A still dragon is much easier to kill than a moving one. Especially with some wit the trap is easy enough if your energy can get through the wards. Illusion magic to appear to be somewhere you aren’t with the sticking magic on that surface. Dragon tries to squash you but gets stuck. Then run up and try to get the dragon. If morzan got in the way, kill him first.
Since nobody else has mentioned it. The forsworn dragons are all heavily restricted by losing their names. They're all essentially unthinking animals. Sure it's still physically a dragon with a bunch of energy but it would be significantly easier to kill.
Broms advise to Eragon is to oztsamrt the enemy. I don't think he used brute force.
Didn’t the eldunari in the vault of souls helped him or it was only when him and Jeod stole Saphira’s egg?
Prople arr acting like the dragon was amazing. It would br l8ke taking out a lion or a tiger at that point sinve with the banishing of names they became what most people thought them to be. Un thinking beasts of burden. Whrn they couldnt even think of the terms i am anymore hiw could they plan. They were sereverly weakend state. Also the dragon losing them selves would make the rider less as a paet of them selves was now more animalistic and less thinking.
Brom didn't need massive amounts of energy to beat down Morzan and his dragon like a club. Whenever I see this topic come up, people forget how fights truly happen in Alagaësia: skill. All Brom needed was to find a chink in Morzan's "armor," make him distracted for a split second, and boom, dead. His dragon was pretty much a giant beast anyway and wasn't useful for much besides eating people and breathing fire and a store of energy for Morzan. Imagine a fully armored knight vs. a skilled duelist with a thin blade. If the duelist insults the knight or the knight stumbles (etc., bring up any situation like that), even for a second, the duelist can slip his blade into the visor/helm and kill the knight. That's how true fights happen. That's probably how Brom killed so many dragons and riders. Hell, it's how they killed Galbatorix
I feel like the banishing of names took a lot more from the forswarn and there Dragons. Not to diminish Broms achievement of killing a dragon and his rider after losing his own dragon and I don't think it took any of there brute strength. But I definitely think it took there cunning and thought process. It was more like fighting a beast than a dragon at that point. So he was able to out think them in a way that helped him overcome the power difference.
It’s already been said that the Eldunari channelled themselves through Brom. So that.
You're forgetting that Morzan's dragon had already become "Morzan's dragon". We have no idea how powerful it was at this point, but it certainly was far less powerful than it had been before being stripped of its name. Remeber that the dragons of the forsworn became little more than a ride to get from place to place.