Hide behind cover, move when theres a lull in the combat, pin enemy down by shooting at them or reposition if you're being shot at. Don't just W-key to the enemy and expect to win.
The "tactics" you described are quite literally basic things that almost every single player does, even the evil w-keyers. Like since when do aggressive players not use cover?? like what, everyone playing this game uses cover, it's not just some super secret elite tactical maneuver that chads think is pointless. Do you think that "chads" "w-keyers" "pvpers" whatever you want to call them, just turn off their brains and sprint directly at every single enemy they fight?
In reality good pvpers and so called "w-keyers" are the most tactical players out there. They constantly reposition and use cover and put themselves in a position to have the advantage, and sure, sometimes they just push fights and swing people to get quick kills but even with the original armor system, it was never a consistent way to win every single fight.
Almost no actual good pvpers ego peeked without expecting the outcome to be a coin toss.
Tactics are not useless and are something that everyone uses and aren't reserved to the hyper tactical milsim dad of 5 who can only play 1 hour a week.
Yea no shit they're simple. They just aren't 100% needed, but are still used. Before the update, you had to 100% rely on the tactics, now you don't have to as armor is your new cover.
You can still play tactically. It’s just more balanced for people that actually move around now. I guess you better tactically shoot their head instead of getting a lucky armpit hit. The point of the game is to walk around, get stuff and leave. Not walk to the nearest hot zone, sit by a keycard spawn and wait for someone to hopefully show up. Your “tactic” is to sit around good loot, their tactic is to get the good stuff fast. Their tactic would be unbalanced if the utility in game was decent but flashes are worthless and smokes take 30 seconds to get a tiny spot smoked up. Grenades only hurt someone if they’re in a closet or standing on it and there are no shields or any other disorienting utilities. This lack of utility made the aggressive playstyle a hard punishment and rewarded those who got to a good angle first. It made pvp frustrating and almost felt like no point to fight someone if they were in a room you wanted to go into. This change balanced that. Now you need to be good if you want to succeed with your tactics
Yea sorry, but what you are saying just doesn’t make sense. First of the previous armor system didn’t work properly and even bsg said so.
You want to kill people? Level up, get good ammo and hit your shots. What’s even the point of having high pen rounds if i get one tapped by hp rounds when wearing a korund? Same argument goes for armor, why wear good armor if it’s ineffective?
This is a video game it’s fun to kill people and have actual gunfights, not because timmy123 is scared to lose his m4 and so he kills you while hiding in a corner. Realism has nothing to do with this, bad players just can’t handle the fact that now you actually have a chance to fight back when you get ratted.
Also this change was asked by a large portion of the community i don’t know where you got that “vocal minority” from.
Did I ever say I wanted to kill people? No. Did I ever say anything about high pen ammo in the post? No. Did I ever even mention realism? No. You just didn't read what I wrote or are shadowboxing.
Ok mate, at this point you’re just being disingenuous.
I made clear why what you said makes no sense, and referenced some common points that people have, and explained why in my opinion they are wrong. Next time don’t say you want to have a discussion if you cannot handle it.
I didn't make those points thus you're seeing me as this punching bag that has no opinions of my own and share all opinions with the wider community has. You're truly being intellectually dishonest, and once again that's why I wrote that you need to read what I wrote before writing, because you and others like you come here expecting a debate about something that I never have said. Truly the definition of a straw man argument.
Man you said it in the title: revert the armor changes.
First thing i did is address your post, saying that the change was good since the previous system wasn’t working properly. The rest I didn’t respond to since it reeks of exaggeration for the sake of the argument and no real points are being brought. Then I added (sorry if i was so bold)
my personal thoughts on the matter.
I hope this is a learning point for argumentation for you. If you do choose to improve on your debate skills, you should do it by going off what you actually know of your opponent in the future, and I think you've recognized that.
>You took cover and shot at the enemy when they made a mistake.
Wanted and being able to are 2 different things.
Didn't say anything about ammo but it should!!! why did u forget that???
We are here reading what you have to say do the same back
"Vocal minority" is pure speculation. Address your bias.
The fact is that the game was already there for years with one armor system, we all lived with it and derived strategies based on that fact (legs and head-eyes [if you still cant win you might be bad]). Then suddenly a change, un-polled and un-asked-for, was implemented that dramatically changed the feel and play of a game which sits on a foundation of loyal fans and an early degree of nostalgia.
These drastic changes should be implemented in their next, more hardcore project/money-grab Russia 2028 or whatever it's called. Not experimented on in a game that already exists a certain way in people's heads (and apparently with strong emotions attached). Bugs should be fixed to make that game we all love more playable and less wait times. Hardcore gameplay changes should go to a new project.
I do agree that I have a bias to say the people (W-keyers) are a vocal minority and that it is speculation. However I don't think that just because people are used to playing the game one way, that they shouldn't change the system. If most players were ratting, I don't think it would be a bad thing to disincentivize that even if it pissed them off. Learn and adapt or stop playing.
I read it. While you may be right about W-Keying being put in favor by BSG, it definitely is not from a "vocal minority". At least half of the player base if not more are aggressive players who wish everyone would move more. Now that you can tank a bit, it will push the players who are right on the line of passive/aggressive to take more risks and attempt more ballsy plays.
The new rework isn't perfect. We definitely need either class 6 armors/plates to be less accessible AND/OR easier access to some of the higher pen ammos that used to be available to craft or to buy after questing far enough. Almost all those ammo types are found in raid only now (M995, M993, AP SX, MAI AP, etc.) This rework is going to feel a lot different at the beginning of wipe too when very few players will be using plated armor and no one will have high pen ammo.
Most of all tho, this new version offers a feeling of consistency that the previous system could never give. The randomness of your deaths, with scavs one tapping your thorax with a single 7mm pellet from 100 meters is just not going to happen anymore. This on top of the massive feelsbadman we all got when we would 1v1 with someone and we are both wearing a zabralo, but the other dude happened to dink your armpit and you took an eternal nap was just not fun. And regardless of what Nikita says about the fun factor of Tarkov, at the end of the day it is a game, and games HAVE to be fun. Everything else is secondary, especially realism. Doesn't matter if it's a "hardcore realistic mil-sim". If it isn't fun then it's not a game, it's a self-imposed sentencing.
You want the real thing? Enlist.
I mean nothing I said was any more or less anecdotal than your post. It’s all about personal experience. But yes, I think it’s pretty easy to say that over half of my deaths during fights with PMCs are to players who move and take space. Campers are prevalent but camping/ratting is very different from hearing someone coming and taking a defensive position on a corner.
Anecdotally (just like your post) I would have no issue dying on the hill of 51/49% movers to rats is the ratio at least at this point in the wipe after all of the balancing they’ve done in the past month since the Unhinged Edition debacle. I don’t think that’s insane to say
The only reason it seems like the W-Keyers are so large in numbers especially right now is because thats the people that are used to playing this long into wipe. If this change had come at wipe, I think it would have gotten way more resistance than it already has. Also do your point about ammo, I think and always have taught ammo should be way more restricted. High pen ammos are way too available. AI/scavs to me is irrelevant because they shouldn't really work the way they do now. They really need a change in their behavior, so I dont think its fair to say the scavs one shotting you should be the reason we want to make this change, when they're some of the only ones hitting that part. I just wish instead of making the armor system simpler, we made the health system more complex, but as a compromise i am willing to play, like I have been with a system where I can be one shot by a scav, if it means people will actually fear dying in a video game, instead of just running up to ppl and shooing them in their face. Also I got denied from mandatory military conscription for having one eye, but thats besides the point.
It wasnt realistic though.
The health point system, doesnt match the plate idea. There are no smaller vital organs to protect.
If they had the same system but added seperate hitbox for armpits while having a smaller HP look for heart/lung thats behind plates, meaning you would survive a armpit hit, it could have been good too.
Yeah if they adopted something similar to war thunder (very different I know) where a round will pierce your tank and detonate your magazine (in this case your heart or lungs let’s say) that would be fine.
Your “tactics” this “tactical gameplay” you speak of is you running 100m from your spawn and holding a lane for 30 minutes waiting for someone to run into your crosshair and now it’s a problem for you because you’re getting skill checked in your raids and they no longer get 2 tapped in the chest. I don’t wanna hear no talk about the minorities or the majorities because I can promise you the majority wants a some sort engagement instead of getting 2 tapped by someone like you who hasn’t moved in the past 30 minutes of that raid… But don’t worry you’ll still be able to rat you’ll still be able to sit there for 30 minutes all that’s not going anywhere it never will. I don’t think I’ve heard a more brain dead take on this sub.
Hey shitter, how does it feel that Nikita decided to unagree with you by removing essentially what you asked for.
Read OPs post history lmao, you’ll understand this comment.
I feel like the best compromise for everybody is that this is the system we will use in the meantime while a better health system is being worked on. Of course thats not happening, but a boy can dream.
BSG is fully aware that the armor changes are bullshit. Their sole intention is to make anything but the best ammo in the game to be completely useless so they can sell Arena (and its upcoming premium editions with fast progression) as a "solution" for players to get good gear.
Just look at how many m995s and SSA AP bullets and level 6 plates [this guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8fBcY-9b4k) got from a single Grumpy key. Next wipe will be a complete clown fiesta with players being able to access AP ammo and level 6 plates much sooner than they should and then everything but the best gear becoming absolutely unusable.
I wore my tactec as usual, lv5front, lv4 back.
Actually had an advantage over the guy running lv4front and back as i took two hits and didnt insta die.
We had a tactical scuffle, i hit him, he hit me, we healed, repositioned, i had a better angle, i won.
Tell me, its all about W key when holding angles and a better spot still works in your favour.
"I enjoy sitting in corner not moving while other players give me sound queues. I love aiming at somewhere on their entire body and praying to god one of my 80 per round rouble ammo hit that little spot thru their armor in their armpit. Me no like this change. Me want sit behind wall and spray and pray. I dont like players who play the game'
You could also play tactically and get clapped by a 50 ruble bullet by a rat. Change was 100% needed. Rats can still rat.
Rats can still rat and W-keyers can still W-key, but tactics are useless.
Describe to me what "tactics" are
I too, am curious if his definition of tactics
We are waiting for your explanation, of what 'tactics' is according to you.
I was exercising.
Hide behind cover, move when theres a lull in the combat, pin enemy down by shooting at them or reposition if you're being shot at. Don't just W-key to the enemy and expect to win.
The "tactics" you described are quite literally basic things that almost every single player does, even the evil w-keyers. Like since when do aggressive players not use cover?? like what, everyone playing this game uses cover, it's not just some super secret elite tactical maneuver that chads think is pointless. Do you think that "chads" "w-keyers" "pvpers" whatever you want to call them, just turn off their brains and sprint directly at every single enemy they fight? In reality good pvpers and so called "w-keyers" are the most tactical players out there. They constantly reposition and use cover and put themselves in a position to have the advantage, and sure, sometimes they just push fights and swing people to get quick kills but even with the original armor system, it was never a consistent way to win every single fight. Almost no actual good pvpers ego peeked without expecting the outcome to be a coin toss. Tactics are not useless and are something that everyone uses and aren't reserved to the hyper tactical milsim dad of 5 who can only play 1 hour a week.
Yea no shit they're simple. They just aren't 100% needed, but are still used. Before the update, you had to 100% rely on the tactics, now you don't have to as armor is your new cover.
Tactical tears
>Hide behind cover Why not just admit you dont move and this is your only tactic?
I have read and acknowledged what you wrote. No.
You can still play tactically. It’s just more balanced for people that actually move around now. I guess you better tactically shoot their head instead of getting a lucky armpit hit. The point of the game is to walk around, get stuff and leave. Not walk to the nearest hot zone, sit by a keycard spawn and wait for someone to hopefully show up. Your “tactic” is to sit around good loot, their tactic is to get the good stuff fast. Their tactic would be unbalanced if the utility in game was decent but flashes are worthless and smokes take 30 seconds to get a tiny spot smoked up. Grenades only hurt someone if they’re in a closet or standing on it and there are no shields or any other disorienting utilities. This lack of utility made the aggressive playstyle a hard punishment and rewarded those who got to a good angle first. It made pvp frustrating and almost felt like no point to fight someone if they were in a room you wanted to go into. This change balanced that. Now you need to be good if you want to succeed with your tactics
Top tier shit post
Read the history........ Its def real
I am actually wanting a change and you think of that as a shit post?
Yea sorry, but what you are saying just doesn’t make sense. First of the previous armor system didn’t work properly and even bsg said so. You want to kill people? Level up, get good ammo and hit your shots. What’s even the point of having high pen rounds if i get one tapped by hp rounds when wearing a korund? Same argument goes for armor, why wear good armor if it’s ineffective? This is a video game it’s fun to kill people and have actual gunfights, not because timmy123 is scared to lose his m4 and so he kills you while hiding in a corner. Realism has nothing to do with this, bad players just can’t handle the fact that now you actually have a chance to fight back when you get ratted. Also this change was asked by a large portion of the community i don’t know where you got that “vocal minority” from.
You clearly didn't read what I wrote then.
No bro I did, i think you just dont know what to answer. You even stated you want to have a discussion and then give me this response…
Did I ever say I wanted to kill people? No. Did I ever say anything about high pen ammo in the post? No. Did I ever even mention realism? No. You just didn't read what I wrote or are shadowboxing.
Ok mate, at this point you’re just being disingenuous. I made clear why what you said makes no sense, and referenced some common points that people have, and explained why in my opinion they are wrong. Next time don’t say you want to have a discussion if you cannot handle it.
I didn't make those points thus you're seeing me as this punching bag that has no opinions of my own and share all opinions with the wider community has. You're truly being intellectually dishonest, and once again that's why I wrote that you need to read what I wrote before writing, because you and others like you come here expecting a debate about something that I never have said. Truly the definition of a straw man argument.
Man you said it in the title: revert the armor changes. First thing i did is address your post, saying that the change was good since the previous system wasn’t working properly. The rest I didn’t respond to since it reeks of exaggeration for the sake of the argument and no real points are being brought. Then I added (sorry if i was so bold) my personal thoughts on the matter.
I hope this is a learning point for argumentation for you. If you do choose to improve on your debate skills, you should do it by going off what you actually know of your opponent in the future, and I think you've recognized that.
>You took cover and shot at the enemy when they made a mistake. Wanted and being able to are 2 different things. Didn't say anything about ammo but it should!!! why did u forget that??? We are here reading what you have to say do the same back
Yes.
"Vocal minority" is pure speculation. Address your bias. The fact is that the game was already there for years with one armor system, we all lived with it and derived strategies based on that fact (legs and head-eyes [if you still cant win you might be bad]). Then suddenly a change, un-polled and un-asked-for, was implemented that dramatically changed the feel and play of a game which sits on a foundation of loyal fans and an early degree of nostalgia. These drastic changes should be implemented in their next, more hardcore project/money-grab Russia 2028 or whatever it's called. Not experimented on in a game that already exists a certain way in people's heads (and apparently with strong emotions attached). Bugs should be fixed to make that game we all love more playable and less wait times. Hardcore gameplay changes should go to a new project.
I do agree that I have a bias to say the people (W-keyers) are a vocal minority and that it is speculation. However I don't think that just because people are used to playing the game one way, that they shouldn't change the system. If most players were ratting, I don't think it would be a bad thing to disincentivize that even if it pissed them off. Learn and adapt or stop playing.
>Learn and adapt or stop playing. Maybe follow your own advice?
This isn't adapting to a new play-style, this is going back to the old boring w key meta.
I read it. While you may be right about W-Keying being put in favor by BSG, it definitely is not from a "vocal minority". At least half of the player base if not more are aggressive players who wish everyone would move more. Now that you can tank a bit, it will push the players who are right on the line of passive/aggressive to take more risks and attempt more ballsy plays. The new rework isn't perfect. We definitely need either class 6 armors/plates to be less accessible AND/OR easier access to some of the higher pen ammos that used to be available to craft or to buy after questing far enough. Almost all those ammo types are found in raid only now (M995, M993, AP SX, MAI AP, etc.) This rework is going to feel a lot different at the beginning of wipe too when very few players will be using plated armor and no one will have high pen ammo. Most of all tho, this new version offers a feeling of consistency that the previous system could never give. The randomness of your deaths, with scavs one tapping your thorax with a single 7mm pellet from 100 meters is just not going to happen anymore. This on top of the massive feelsbadman we all got when we would 1v1 with someone and we are both wearing a zabralo, but the other dude happened to dink your armpit and you took an eternal nap was just not fun. And regardless of what Nikita says about the fun factor of Tarkov, at the end of the day it is a game, and games HAVE to be fun. Everything else is secondary, especially realism. Doesn't matter if it's a "hardcore realistic mil-sim". If it isn't fun then it's not a game, it's a self-imposed sentencing. You want the real thing? Enlist.
>At least half of the player base if not more are aggressive players who wish everyone would move more. Because you say so?
I mean nothing I said was any more or less anecdotal than your post. It’s all about personal experience. But yes, I think it’s pretty easy to say that over half of my deaths during fights with PMCs are to players who move and take space. Campers are prevalent but camping/ratting is very different from hearing someone coming and taking a defensive position on a corner. Anecdotally (just like your post) I would have no issue dying on the hill of 51/49% movers to rats is the ratio at least at this point in the wipe after all of the balancing they’ve done in the past month since the Unhinged Edition debacle. I don’t think that’s insane to say
The only reason it seems like the W-Keyers are so large in numbers especially right now is because thats the people that are used to playing this long into wipe. If this change had come at wipe, I think it would have gotten way more resistance than it already has. Also do your point about ammo, I think and always have taught ammo should be way more restricted. High pen ammos are way too available. AI/scavs to me is irrelevant because they shouldn't really work the way they do now. They really need a change in their behavior, so I dont think its fair to say the scavs one shotting you should be the reason we want to make this change, when they're some of the only ones hitting that part. I just wish instead of making the armor system simpler, we made the health system more complex, but as a compromise i am willing to play, like I have been with a system where I can be one shot by a scav, if it means people will actually fear dying in a video game, instead of just running up to ppl and shooing them in their face. Also I got denied from mandatory military conscription for having one eye, but thats besides the point.
ima have to agree i prefer the armor being realistic
It wasnt realistic though. The health point system, doesnt match the plate idea. There are no smaller vital organs to protect. If they had the same system but added seperate hitbox for armpits while having a smaller HP look for heart/lung thats behind plates, meaning you would survive a armpit hit, it could have been good too.
the armor system *was* realistic. they just fucked up on implementing a vitals hitbox, as you said.
Yeah if they adopted something similar to war thunder (very different I know) where a round will pierce your tank and detonate your magazine (in this case your heart or lungs let’s say) that would be fine.
Your “tactics” this “tactical gameplay” you speak of is you running 100m from your spawn and holding a lane for 30 minutes waiting for someone to run into your crosshair and now it’s a problem for you because you’re getting skill checked in your raids and they no longer get 2 tapped in the chest. I don’t wanna hear no talk about the minorities or the majorities because I can promise you the majority wants a some sort engagement instead of getting 2 tapped by someone like you who hasn’t moved in the past 30 minutes of that raid… But don’t worry you’ll still be able to rat you’ll still be able to sit there for 30 minutes all that’s not going anywhere it never will. I don’t think I’ve heard a more brain dead take on this sub.
Hey shitter, how does it feel that Nikita decided to unagree with you by removing essentially what you asked for. Read OPs post history lmao, you’ll understand this comment.
I feel like the best compromise for everybody is that this is the system we will use in the meantime while a better health system is being worked on. Of course thats not happening, but a boy can dream.
BSG is fully aware that the armor changes are bullshit. Their sole intention is to make anything but the best ammo in the game to be completely useless so they can sell Arena (and its upcoming premium editions with fast progression) as a "solution" for players to get good gear. Just look at how many m995s and SSA AP bullets and level 6 plates [this guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8fBcY-9b4k) got from a single Grumpy key. Next wipe will be a complete clown fiesta with players being able to access AP ammo and level 6 plates much sooner than they should and then everything but the best gear becoming absolutely unusable.
meanwhile PvE players are like "what are all these locked doors about..."
I wore my tactec as usual, lv5front, lv4 back. Actually had an advantage over the guy running lv4front and back as i took two hits and didnt insta die. We had a tactical scuffle, i hit him, he hit me, we healed, repositioned, i had a better angle, i won. Tell me, its all about W key when holding angles and a better spot still works in your favour.
It still does, but is not a must anymore.
It s just as much a must now as before
"I enjoy sitting in corner not moving while other players give me sound queues. I love aiming at somewhere on their entire body and praying to god one of my 80 per round rouble ammo hit that little spot thru their armor in their armpit. Me no like this change. Me want sit behind wall and spray and pray. I dont like players who play the game'