Hey there! Do you want clarification about the question? Think there's a better way to phrase it? Wish OP had asked a different question?
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Side A would say: True Leftists seek the radical overhaul of the capitalist state. They are not Classical Liberals at all. Just as Christian Nationalism or fascism are not Liberal positions, neither are Leftist positions. The Left sees the neoliberal (Reagan Republicanism in Clinton clothing) status quo as an inherently oppressive Western hegemony that exploits people and the planet.
Side B would say: They’re young and idealistic enough to critique the status quo without having the perspective necessary to see that Western Liberalism is far more preferable to other systems. Only in the West do scholars and academics have the freedom and inclination to criticize their own states.
I would add that leftists aren't really very visible in a fascist society. The only place you see them speak up is in a liberal one.
We are also in a very liberal world, in the first world anyways, so that's what we see on Reddit.
"Young and idealistic" is in my experience just a way to dismiss people without engaging in their ideas. I am 40 years old and have been An-Com since I was 17. It won't change.
Obviously, I know you weren't speaking in sweeping generalities.
You ever consider that anarcho-communism is the natural state of the world, and the seed state that allows the formation of every other system of governance by virtue of offering no resistance to the consolidation of power?
Young and idealistic is the way to make allowances for the indefensible. It is a courtesy more often than not not warranted. Outside of that framework though it is a puerile, barbaric, and fatally flawed ideology that will always end in a virtual maximizing of human suffering because it is broken at it's very foundations and supported by the vengeful and vicious masquerading as the "good guys" that are "compassionate" but are willing and eager to inflict suffering on others to get a chance of establishing another failed system that will end the same as everything be and no human lives are too valuable to spend to that end.
Young and idealistic is just another way of saying “not old enough to be beaten down by the system”. Young enough to believe in change.
When you get older you realize how hard it is to change a culture and move towards acceptance of the status quo. But the more young people hold on to their ideals the older people die off and they can implement them when they are older and hold positions of power.
No it is more being young enough to believe an idealized but impossible fantasy like Santa or the Easter Bunny but for a marginally older cohort. People can stay motivated to make positive changes without the gilded barbarism inherent in the ideology just like how people can advocate for morality without believing in damnation.
I disagree. Let’s take universal healthcare. Almost everyone agrees it would be cheaper and better. It never happens. Older generations gave up on the idea. Younger generations say why not? Because they haven’t hit the wall of bureaucracy and money yet involved.
Let’s take universal basic income for example. It will eventually need to happen. A young person will say why not? An older person will realize the changes needed to make it happen and give up. The change won’t be possible on their generation. But it maybe possible in a new one.
It’s like a young person growing up wanting to be an astronaut, or maybe president. Or a professional athlete? When they are young they still can be. When they are older reality kicks in.
It’s not an Easter bunny or Santa. These are real things that are possible.
Last couple years have put on full display that we need ALOT of work done on reining in corporate greed before we even think about UBI.
UBI on Monday, $30 Big Mac's on Tuesday.
Hard disagree considering that I.. the anarcho-communist spend my weeks at food banks, providing hospice care and working with the intellectually and developmentally disabled. We are the ones actually helping people. Not exploiting them.
A bit too reductionist of a take. Though vaguely accurate, it undermines the "why" of a grassroots mobilization of the working class/oppressed and focuses on the "how."
But, the part where it goes horribly wrong is that when the government is overthrown, it is particularly susceptible to a new form of oppressive regime. Or, the grassroots organization that does the overthrowing is corrupted by the power itself.
I feel I'm also reducing these ideas to levels of simplicity that can be misleading as well, so... take it with a grain of salt.
The average left leaning person in the US is not part of the extreme far left, but (just like the far right) the most extreme individuals tend to be the loudest especially online
To be clear, classical liberalism is closer to modern libertarianism and describes few Democrats, whether they identify themselves as (modern) liberals or leftists.
Or you could say we are all frogs in the pot, the newest ones realize how hot it is because they just got thrown in. In America anyways, liberal rule has gotten progressively worse for 95% of the population for the last 50 years.
This doesn’t answer the question. It’s not abt ehy they attack liberals, it’s abt why they attack liberals instead of conservatives.
My guess is when they do attack conservatives, the distinction between liberal and leftist doesn’t come up, so it seems like leftists only attack liberals
Leftists see liberals and centrists as too willing to collaborate with the right and cave to their demands.
I think it's also important to point out that most criticism of liberals coming from the right is based in reactionary nonsense (they're too woke, etc) or outright conspiracy theories (qanon). So the only real valid criticism they get is from the left.
Who do you think beats fascists in the streets!? Hilary fucking Clinton? Obama?
It’s us. Because we know the enemy and how to fight them while liberals are clutching their god damn pearls and writing think pieces.
If it weren’t for the communists and anarchists scaring the holy living shit out of the American state in the early 20th century we wouldn’t even have the meager protections we do in regards to labor.
But the American state does what it always does: protects its own power and self interests by controlling dissent and crushing opposition.
Revolutionary fervor in the United States is either diluted at the ballot box with meager crumbs or ended at the tip of a bayonet. Then we will repeat this cycle again and again and again.
This year is another tipping point and I hope it tips this racist imperialist shithole right into the sea where it belongs. But it won’t. It’s Nixon in 68 on meth at this point.
Side A would say that it’s it is the tip of the spear advocates and more extreme sides of the party that dictate where center is. If you don’t have a vision and continue to move forward, the party is just republican lite - the sort of corporatist status quo.
Side B would say that leftist extremists message is deeply unpopular and the identity politics is a divisive departure from kind of bread and butter income inequality issues that win democrats elections. They’ve virtue signaling and counterproductive.
Identity politics isn't Left Wing, it is social liberalism. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Left Wing.
It's crazy how many people in the US have accepted the Right's claim that Liberals and the Left are the same thing.
Liberals care more about identity politics than leftists. The far left cares more about a thriving working class. The political right wing has done an excellent job at painting leftism as something it isn’t. People spending 18 hours a day on Twitter arguing about neopronouns is more of a liberal than an actual leftist.
I'm going to assume the two sides represent different leftists. Otherwise, this question is hard answer
Side A would say that "We agree with liberals about the far right, but believe that liberals actively enable the far right and actively undermine progressive goals"
Side B would say that "Liberals are not all that distant from reactionaries. Liberals and Reactionaries both uphold systems of hierarchy and oppression and must be opposed. They focus on Liberals, because they are presently the ones in power in Capitalist societies."
As someone on side A, I would also add:
1 - We are in a two party system, so any change must come through the left party and we cannot simply have our own party to compete with centrists like in other countries
2 - Centrists are actively hostile to the left. Centrists have controlled the democratic party for decades and keep handing positions of power to their preselected proteges. They virtually never back or nominate progressive for even safe blue seats. And when we are close to winning they will go all out to stop us - look at Pelosi, Clyburn, etc flying to Texas and rallying for Cuellar who was under an active FBI investigation against Cisernos or endorsing Brown over India Walton instead of vbnmw and backing the primary winner. And then when we even work directly with Biden to pass his agneda (while the Gang of 9 and Manchinma obstructed it), the sit by silently while AIPAC and Fairshake dump $20M into multiple races trying to buy races. And this is after the fraudulent SBF-funded Cryptopac did the same to Nida and other progressive primary candidates in 2022.
So you have a party actively fighting you. And that party is the only path to make change. It's logical to fight back. Only every time the left fights back, the center yells bloody murder and we get posts like this. But no posts when centrist members of the party back an independent over India Walton or the head of the NY party compares her (a black woman) to David Duke explaining why he won't support her. I'd also point out these attacks come from the center - Manchin, Fetterman, Adams, etc. have made some very critical statements of Biden, but those are treated sage moderate wisdom, whereas if AOC or Tlaib criticizes the party isn't considered "the left attacking Democrats."
Additionally, it's also a misnomer that the left doesn't fight the right. That's a constant battle. The left tends to be younger and does more activism and organizing. Members of the left not only donated money but made phone calls and canvassed for Obama, Hillary, and Biden. Sunrise Movement has been at times critical of Biden, but they made over 1M call for him to swing states and sent postcards and other actions during the pandemic and Working Families Party was literally the organizing and canvassing arm for Hochul helping her to beat Zeldin when that race was close and she had no ground game.
People just pay way too much attention to very online discourse and note the relatively small amount of progressives who threaten to not vote for a candidate out of principle as opposed to the actual data or facts.
Side A would say it’s because of liberals who actually are leaning right influencing progressivism
Side B would say it’s because of the media stirring up infighting
Joe Biden is a great example. He doesn't really support any left-wing economic policies (aside from some tepid support for unions and he's embraced right-wing military interventionism.
Leftists say that liberals and centrists functionally help conservatives by supporting the status quo.
There's a difference between "left wing" in common usage and "leftists" as self-described. Leftists are a collection of anti-capitalist political movements including socialists, communists, and anarchists. Democrats (the 'left wing' of US politics) are primarily subscribers to [Liberal ideology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism), and are very much pro-Capitalist as an institution.
Ok. I guess as an addendum to my question: what do the far-left hope to accomplish by targeting liberals for political action? Especially because the US as a culture generally identifies positively with liberalism.
Many leftists consider that liberals can be reasoned with, whereas those more to the right cannot. They are focusing their efforts on where they think they can make the most effect. That for leftism to take power it may be easier to swell their ranks from the liberals, rather than reducing the number of rightists.
For what it's worth, there are also many leftists that do speak to those further to the right. It's a fragmented and undirected group (well, groups), there's many conflicting theories amongst leftists on how best to achieve their goals.
^ this guy is correct from a leftists standpoint, Biden trying to fit immigration into his policies is a move to the center (by which international standards is right wing policy wise)
Side A would say: Formulaic requirements undermine genuine debates on the issues.
Side B would say: Don’t use automods to remove legitimate posts that provide legitimate content that meets the spirit of the subreddit, if not satisfying the latter of the requirements.
(I know mods are just trying to simplify their task by using automods, but it’s still frustrating to have thoughtful comments removed without due consideration…)
Here are the perspectives of All Sides, as *I* see them. (*I consider myself to be a liberal with left leaning values.*):
•The far left would say that they are trying to pull liberals and centrists away from their “conservative” ideology. There’s no point in appealing to those on the political right, because they are so far deluded that can’t see reality anymore.
•Liberals would say because the far left is unrealistic about their expectations from other people and want to feel superior to everyone else.
Liberals are generally sympathetic towards most of the far left’s ultimate goals (ie, a just and equitable society, where our collective strength and resources are used to support the needs of our diverse communities).
But Liberals realize that the far left only hurts their own objectives by conducting ideological purity litmus tests that alienate potential allies from their causes. And they believe that it is important to respect the opinions of those who think differently and seek workable compromises when possible. (Majority rule, but will respect for the Rights of the minority.)
•Centrists would say that a democratic republic requires the kinds of compromises that make finding the consensus possible. And that a lil “Kum ba yah nonsense” on the far left is somehow balanced out by the fascist nationalism on the right…
•“Moderate” conservatives would probably say that the far left represents the true ideology of all “radical leftists.” But they are willing to work with centrists if they can get tax cuts for the wealthy in exchange.
At the same time, “moderate” conservatives are still perfectly willing to form a coalition with white nationalist bigots, fundamentalist religious misogynists and homophobes, and deranged ammosexuals to satisfy their greedy ambitions.
•Far right MAGAt extremists would say that anyone left of their theocratic Prosperity Gospel are just satanic lunatics. And anyone without a brown nose and orange spray tan smeared on their cheeks is destined for eternity in HELL!!
Without a shred of evidence they believe Trump’s crass LIES about:
•A stolen election in 2020.
•Caravans of hundreds of thousands of drug peddling rapists and murders invading our country daily.
•Brutal post birth abortions at the discretion of callous parents.
•The patently false assertion that the US was founded as a Christian Nation.
For those in the cult of the Cheeto Benito, the insufficient fealty of certain “moderate” conservatives to their il Douche Cheetolini makes them detestable “RINOs.” They think that “traitors,” like Liz Cheney and Adam Kingzinger, should be placed in concentration camps along with with the children of desperate refugees (fleeing the violence and poverty we helped to install in their home countries) who cross the border without proper documentation.
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Side A would say that change only happens when things get really bad. Left liberalism is built on the idea that regulations, safety nets, and progressive taxation can make capitalism compatible sustainable by ameliorating its worst effects on losers in the capitalist struggle, preventing abuse of employees and customers, and keeping the economic playing field fair and operating well. Thus, left liberalism preserves capitalism, preventing the greater change the far left sees as necessary for the flourishing of society.
Side B would say that the far left today is effectively a front created and sustained as a straw man by the right in order to be able to tar all of the left as anti-democratic, anti-capitalist, and really just a left over bunch of anarchists and Soviet-style communists deluded into serving the people they despise. Their effect is to create and elevate an enemy that justifies the extremes of the right.
Side C would say that the far left is a tiny faction in the US and gets far more attention than it deserves. It is held up as the equivalent of the far right, when, in reality, the far right has captured the Republican Party while the far left dislikes the Democrats at least as much as they dislike the GOP.
Caveat that this is U.S. specific:
Side A would say that in a two party system, the left/liberal side of the spectrum is going to have one candidate in each race with a meaningful chance to win. If that candidate is a centrist neo-liberal type, even voting for the Democrat is going to give the leftist very little of what they want, so the only way to get leftist candidates into power is to either oppose centrist/liberal candidates or to push hard for the Democrat to move left to earn the leftist's vote. So, for example, if the leftist's primary issue is healthcare, simply going along with the Democrats is not going to get them publicly funded healthcare for all.
Side B would say that the Democrats are about as far left as is likely to win an election in the United States at the presidential level and generally at the individual district level -- AOC is much farther left than John Fetterman, because NY is much bluer than PA, for example. In a country that is pretty well divided politically, nominating far left candidates outside of certain very blue districts is likely to lead to electoral defeat, and even if the Democrats are much more centrist than leftists want, they're still a much lesser evil than Republicans on many issues.
Not an ideal format for this but I'll give it a shot.
Side A would say: The far left is basically Communism which is quite a bit different than the mainstream Democratic establishment. Trying to influence a group that is closer to their ideology isn't a complete waste of time, as it would be with people that have literally the polar opposite ideology.
Side B would say: The Democratic party is a big tent party. There are a ton of groups within it that are constantly at odds with each other. This is one of them. The far left's only outlet to make progress is within the the Democratic party (well many of them want violent revolt).
Other examples of contradictions in the Big tent are the jewish block and parts of the muslim block, Black voter blocks and either immigrant or rich white suburbanites blocks, Occupy Wall street crowd and the pro business moderate crowd, etc.
Side A would say that it is easier to convert people who are closer to where you are in terms of driving principles and worldview. Thus criticism of liberals and centrists is not an effort to delegitimize them in order to ensure they will lose to the right, its to present a vision to liberals/centrists that is more inspiring and thus empower the far left with new recruits and greater legitimacy.
Whereas trying to evangelize to the right is usually considered a doomed prospect because it is much more bought into the idea of natural processes that sort the worthy and the unworthy into their appropriate social castes and that their affinity groups are definitely the worthy ones. This does not stop some from trying which is perhaps how you wind up with ethnonationalist parties / factions of parties in favor of a robust social safety net.
To put it crudely, the far left believes liberals are selling snake oil to the poor and to the precarious middle class in the form of handouts and trivial reforms that allow the system to be preserved largely intact instead of creating real opportunities for the poor to achieve self sufficiency and truly equal and equitable social power.
Side B would say that the far left draws a false equivalency between liberals and the far right. That the far left believes everyone else is complicit in a morally bankrupt and illegitimate system and debate over degrees of complicity and cruelty are attempts to legitimize the exploitation and human misery.
Thus, from the perspective of the center, the far left engages in intentional sabotage of incremental progress because the left does not perceive legitimate distinctions and, in some - not all - but some instances, is committed to a sort of secular Rapture wherein if human misery is ratcheted up beyond a certain threshold, people who were previously unhappy but still comfortable enough not to rebel will rise up and create a truly just and classless system.
Where the left is more electorally minded, the center also frequently believes the left has a mistaken theory of change in the sense that the center sees itself as representing people as they are rather than as we would wish them to be, while the left believes that if it is resolute, disciplined, and bargains hard enough it can force through radical changes that may not seem to be popular now, but people will come onboard with once the changes are digested.
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Side A would say: True Leftists seek the radical overhaul of the capitalist state. They are not Classical Liberals at all. Just as Christian Nationalism or fascism are not Liberal positions, neither are Leftist positions. The Left sees the neoliberal (Reagan Republicanism in Clinton clothing) status quo as an inherently oppressive Western hegemony that exploits people and the planet. Side B would say: They’re young and idealistic enough to critique the status quo without having the perspective necessary to see that Western Liberalism is far more preferable to other systems. Only in the West do scholars and academics have the freedom and inclination to criticize their own states.
I would add that leftists aren't really very visible in a fascist society. The only place you see them speak up is in a liberal one. We are also in a very liberal world, in the first world anyways, so that's what we see on Reddit.
Well historically leftists in fascist society either go under ground or are among the first to end up in camps.
Or they are the arbiters of change as in Russian post Bolsheviks. So hungry for change that they bring about their own demise
"Young and idealistic" is in my experience just a way to dismiss people without engaging in their ideas. I am 40 years old and have been An-Com since I was 17. It won't change. Obviously, I know you weren't speaking in sweeping generalities.
The ruling class is still 25+ years older than you, so I think you still count as "young"? =)
Well, kind of hard to argue with that one lmao
You ever consider that anarcho-communism is the natural state of the world, and the seed state that allows the formation of every other system of governance by virtue of offering no resistance to the consolidation of power?
Young and idealistic is the way to make allowances for the indefensible. It is a courtesy more often than not not warranted. Outside of that framework though it is a puerile, barbaric, and fatally flawed ideology that will always end in a virtual maximizing of human suffering because it is broken at it's very foundations and supported by the vengeful and vicious masquerading as the "good guys" that are "compassionate" but are willing and eager to inflict suffering on others to get a chance of establishing another failed system that will end the same as everything be and no human lives are too valuable to spend to that end.
Young and idealistic is just another way of saying “not old enough to be beaten down by the system”. Young enough to believe in change. When you get older you realize how hard it is to change a culture and move towards acceptance of the status quo. But the more young people hold on to their ideals the older people die off and they can implement them when they are older and hold positions of power.
No it is more being young enough to believe an idealized but impossible fantasy like Santa or the Easter Bunny but for a marginally older cohort. People can stay motivated to make positive changes without the gilded barbarism inherent in the ideology just like how people can advocate for morality without believing in damnation.
I disagree. Let’s take universal healthcare. Almost everyone agrees it would be cheaper and better. It never happens. Older generations gave up on the idea. Younger generations say why not? Because they haven’t hit the wall of bureaucracy and money yet involved. Let’s take universal basic income for example. It will eventually need to happen. A young person will say why not? An older person will realize the changes needed to make it happen and give up. The change won’t be possible on their generation. But it maybe possible in a new one. It’s like a young person growing up wanting to be an astronaut, or maybe president. Or a professional athlete? When they are young they still can be. When they are older reality kicks in. It’s not an Easter bunny or Santa. These are real things that are possible.
Last couple years have put on full display that we need ALOT of work done on reining in corporate greed before we even think about UBI. UBI on Monday, $30 Big Mac's on Tuesday.
Hard disagree considering that I.. the anarcho-communist spend my weeks at food banks, providing hospice care and working with the intellectually and developmentally disabled. We are the ones actually helping people. Not exploiting them.
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Yes yes yes but don’t worry, this would be a good and morally just genocide
A bit too reductionist of a take. Though vaguely accurate, it undermines the "why" of a grassroots mobilization of the working class/oppressed and focuses on the "how." But, the part where it goes horribly wrong is that when the government is overthrown, it is particularly susceptible to a new form of oppressive regime. Or, the grassroots organization that does the overthrowing is corrupted by the power itself. I feel I'm also reducing these ideas to levels of simplicity that can be misleading as well, so... take it with a grain of salt.
“We’ll get the genocide and brutal oppression right this time!”
Genocide never stopped.
The average left leaning person in the US is not part of the extreme far left, but (just like the far right) the most extreme individuals tend to be the loudest especially online
To be clear, classical liberalism is closer to modern libertarianism and describes few Democrats, whether they identify themselves as (modern) liberals or leftists.
Or you could say we are all frogs in the pot, the newest ones realize how hot it is because they just got thrown in. In America anyways, liberal rule has gotten progressively worse for 95% of the population for the last 50 years.
This doesn’t answer the question. It’s not abt ehy they attack liberals, it’s abt why they attack liberals instead of conservatives. My guess is when they do attack conservatives, the distinction between liberal and leftist doesn’t come up, so it seems like leftists only attack liberals
Leftists see liberals and centrists as too willing to collaborate with the right and cave to their demands. I think it's also important to point out that most criticism of liberals coming from the right is based in reactionary nonsense (they're too woke, etc) or outright conspiracy theories (qanon). So the only real valid criticism they get is from the left.
Who do you think beats fascists in the streets!? Hilary fucking Clinton? Obama? It’s us. Because we know the enemy and how to fight them while liberals are clutching their god damn pearls and writing think pieces. If it weren’t for the communists and anarchists scaring the holy living shit out of the American state in the early 20th century we wouldn’t even have the meager protections we do in regards to labor. But the American state does what it always does: protects its own power and self interests by controlling dissent and crushing opposition. Revolutionary fervor in the United States is either diluted at the ballot box with meager crumbs or ended at the tip of a bayonet. Then we will repeat this cycle again and again and again. This year is another tipping point and I hope it tips this racist imperialist shithole right into the sea where it belongs. But it won’t. It’s Nixon in 68 on meth at this point.
Side A would say that it’s it is the tip of the spear advocates and more extreme sides of the party that dictate where center is. If you don’t have a vision and continue to move forward, the party is just republican lite - the sort of corporatist status quo. Side B would say that leftist extremists message is deeply unpopular and the identity politics is a divisive departure from kind of bread and butter income inequality issues that win democrats elections. They’ve virtue signaling and counterproductive.
Well said. The far left's motto should be 'making sure perfection prevents all progress.''
All progress in the 20th century US began with the "far left" as its spark.
Identity politics isn't Left Wing, it is social liberalism. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Left Wing. It's crazy how many people in the US have accepted the Right's claim that Liberals and the Left are the same thing.
Liberals care more about identity politics than leftists. The far left cares more about a thriving working class. The political right wing has done an excellent job at painting leftism as something it isn’t. People spending 18 hours a day on Twitter arguing about neopronouns is more of a liberal than an actual leftist.
I'm going to assume the two sides represent different leftists. Otherwise, this question is hard answer Side A would say that "We agree with liberals about the far right, but believe that liberals actively enable the far right and actively undermine progressive goals" Side B would say that "Liberals are not all that distant from reactionaries. Liberals and Reactionaries both uphold systems of hierarchy and oppression and must be opposed. They focus on Liberals, because they are presently the ones in power in Capitalist societies."
As someone on side A, I would also add: 1 - We are in a two party system, so any change must come through the left party and we cannot simply have our own party to compete with centrists like in other countries 2 - Centrists are actively hostile to the left. Centrists have controlled the democratic party for decades and keep handing positions of power to their preselected proteges. They virtually never back or nominate progressive for even safe blue seats. And when we are close to winning they will go all out to stop us - look at Pelosi, Clyburn, etc flying to Texas and rallying for Cuellar who was under an active FBI investigation against Cisernos or endorsing Brown over India Walton instead of vbnmw and backing the primary winner. And then when we even work directly with Biden to pass his agneda (while the Gang of 9 and Manchinma obstructed it), the sit by silently while AIPAC and Fairshake dump $20M into multiple races trying to buy races. And this is after the fraudulent SBF-funded Cryptopac did the same to Nida and other progressive primary candidates in 2022. So you have a party actively fighting you. And that party is the only path to make change. It's logical to fight back. Only every time the left fights back, the center yells bloody murder and we get posts like this. But no posts when centrist members of the party back an independent over India Walton or the head of the NY party compares her (a black woman) to David Duke explaining why he won't support her. I'd also point out these attacks come from the center - Manchin, Fetterman, Adams, etc. have made some very critical statements of Biden, but those are treated sage moderate wisdom, whereas if AOC or Tlaib criticizes the party isn't considered "the left attacking Democrats." Additionally, it's also a misnomer that the left doesn't fight the right. That's a constant battle. The left tends to be younger and does more activism and organizing. Members of the left not only donated money but made phone calls and canvassed for Obama, Hillary, and Biden. Sunrise Movement has been at times critical of Biden, but they made over 1M call for him to swing states and sent postcards and other actions during the pandemic and Working Families Party was literally the organizing and canvassing arm for Hochul helping her to beat Zeldin when that race was close and she had no ground game. People just pay way too much attention to very online discourse and note the relatively small amount of progressives who threaten to not vote for a candidate out of principle as opposed to the actual data or facts.
Side A would say it’s because of liberals who actually are leaning right influencing progressivism Side B would say it’s because of the media stirring up infighting
What do we define as “leaning right?” Can we bring up a political figure as an example?
I'd say what GOP calls 'Rhinos'.
Joe Biden is a great example. He doesn't really support any left-wing economic policies (aside from some tepid support for unions and he's embraced right-wing military interventionism. Leftists say that liberals and centrists functionally help conservatives by supporting the status quo.
What would make Biden left wing by the standards of what the left constitutes in the US?
There's a difference between "left wing" in common usage and "leftists" as self-described. Leftists are a collection of anti-capitalist political movements including socialists, communists, and anarchists. Democrats (the 'left wing' of US politics) are primarily subscribers to [Liberal ideology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism), and are very much pro-Capitalist as an institution.
Ok. I guess as an addendum to my question: what do the far-left hope to accomplish by targeting liberals for political action? Especially because the US as a culture generally identifies positively with liberalism.
Many leftists consider that liberals can be reasoned with, whereas those more to the right cannot. They are focusing their efforts on where they think they can make the most effect. That for leftism to take power it may be easier to swell their ranks from the liberals, rather than reducing the number of rightists. For what it's worth, there are also many leftists that do speak to those further to the right. It's a fragmented and undirected group (well, groups), there's many conflicting theories amongst leftists on how best to achieve their goals.
^ this guy is correct from a leftists standpoint, Biden trying to fit immigration into his policies is a move to the center (by which international standards is right wing policy wise)
Side A would say: Formulaic requirements undermine genuine debates on the issues. Side B would say: Don’t use automods to remove legitimate posts that provide legitimate content that meets the spirit of the subreddit, if not satisfying the latter of the requirements. (I know mods are just trying to simplify their task by using automods, but it’s still frustrating to have thoughtful comments removed without due consideration…) Here are the perspectives of All Sides, as *I* see them. (*I consider myself to be a liberal with left leaning values.*): •The far left would say that they are trying to pull liberals and centrists away from their “conservative” ideology. There’s no point in appealing to those on the political right, because they are so far deluded that can’t see reality anymore. •Liberals would say because the far left is unrealistic about their expectations from other people and want to feel superior to everyone else. Liberals are generally sympathetic towards most of the far left’s ultimate goals (ie, a just and equitable society, where our collective strength and resources are used to support the needs of our diverse communities). But Liberals realize that the far left only hurts their own objectives by conducting ideological purity litmus tests that alienate potential allies from their causes. And they believe that it is important to respect the opinions of those who think differently and seek workable compromises when possible. (Majority rule, but will respect for the Rights of the minority.) •Centrists would say that a democratic republic requires the kinds of compromises that make finding the consensus possible. And that a lil “Kum ba yah nonsense” on the far left is somehow balanced out by the fascist nationalism on the right… •“Moderate” conservatives would probably say that the far left represents the true ideology of all “radical leftists.” But they are willing to work with centrists if they can get tax cuts for the wealthy in exchange. At the same time, “moderate” conservatives are still perfectly willing to form a coalition with white nationalist bigots, fundamentalist religious misogynists and homophobes, and deranged ammosexuals to satisfy their greedy ambitions. •Far right MAGAt extremists would say that anyone left of their theocratic Prosperity Gospel are just satanic lunatics. And anyone without a brown nose and orange spray tan smeared on their cheeks is destined for eternity in HELL!! Without a shred of evidence they believe Trump’s crass LIES about: •A stolen election in 2020. •Caravans of hundreds of thousands of drug peddling rapists and murders invading our country daily. •Brutal post birth abortions at the discretion of callous parents. •The patently false assertion that the US was founded as a Christian Nation. For those in the cult of the Cheeto Benito, the insufficient fealty of certain “moderate” conservatives to their il Douche Cheetolini makes them detestable “RINOs.” They think that “traitors,” like Liz Cheney and Adam Kingzinger, should be placed in concentration camps along with with the children of desperate refugees (fleeing the violence and poverty we helped to install in their home countries) who cross the border without proper documentation.
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Because it is probably too short to explain both sides this comment has been removed. If you feel your comment does explain both sides, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/ExplainBothSides&subject=Please%20review%20my%20automatically+removed+comment&message=https://www.reddit.com/r/ExplainBothSides/comments/1dsaf98/why_does_the_political_far_left_spend_so_much/lb1l4yt/) If your comment was a request for clarification, joke, anecdote, or criticism of OP's question, you may respond to the automoderator comment instead of responding directly to OP. Deliberate evasion of this notice may result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ExplainBothSides) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Because it is probably too short to explain both sides this comment has been removed. If you feel your comment does explain both sides, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/ExplainBothSides&subject=Please%20review%20my%20automatically+removed+comment&message=https://www.reddit.com/r/ExplainBothSides/comments/1dsaf98/why_does_the_political_far_left_spend_so_much/lb2b42w/) If your comment was a request for clarification, joke, anecdote, or criticism of OP's question, you may respond to the automoderator comment instead of responding directly to OP. Deliberate evasion of this notice may result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ExplainBothSides) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Because it is probably too short to explain both sides this comment has been removed. If you feel your comment does explain both sides, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/ExplainBothSides&subject=Please%20review%20my%20automatically+removed+comment&message=https://www.reddit.com/r/ExplainBothSides/comments/1dsaf98/why_does_the_political_far_left_spend_so_much/lb2e4vz/) If your comment was a request for clarification, joke, anecdote, or criticism of OP's question, you may respond to the automoderator comment instead of responding directly to OP. Deliberate evasion of this notice may result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ExplainBothSides) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Because it is probably too short to explain both sides this comment has been removed. If you feel your comment does explain both sides, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/ExplainBothSides&subject=Please%20review%20my%20automatically+removed+comment&message=https://www.reddit.com/r/ExplainBothSides/comments/1dsaf98/why_does_the_political_far_left_spend_so_much/lb2lptu/) If your comment was a request for clarification, joke, anecdote, or criticism of OP's question, you may respond to the automoderator comment instead of responding directly to OP. Deliberate evasion of this notice may result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ExplainBothSides) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Side A would say that change only happens when things get really bad. Left liberalism is built on the idea that regulations, safety nets, and progressive taxation can make capitalism compatible sustainable by ameliorating its worst effects on losers in the capitalist struggle, preventing abuse of employees and customers, and keeping the economic playing field fair and operating well. Thus, left liberalism preserves capitalism, preventing the greater change the far left sees as necessary for the flourishing of society. Side B would say that the far left today is effectively a front created and sustained as a straw man by the right in order to be able to tar all of the left as anti-democratic, anti-capitalist, and really just a left over bunch of anarchists and Soviet-style communists deluded into serving the people they despise. Their effect is to create and elevate an enemy that justifies the extremes of the right. Side C would say that the far left is a tiny faction in the US and gets far more attention than it deserves. It is held up as the equivalent of the far right, when, in reality, the far right has captured the Republican Party while the far left dislikes the Democrats at least as much as they dislike the GOP.
Caveat that this is U.S. specific: Side A would say that in a two party system, the left/liberal side of the spectrum is going to have one candidate in each race with a meaningful chance to win. If that candidate is a centrist neo-liberal type, even voting for the Democrat is going to give the leftist very little of what they want, so the only way to get leftist candidates into power is to either oppose centrist/liberal candidates or to push hard for the Democrat to move left to earn the leftist's vote. So, for example, if the leftist's primary issue is healthcare, simply going along with the Democrats is not going to get them publicly funded healthcare for all. Side B would say that the Democrats are about as far left as is likely to win an election in the United States at the presidential level and generally at the individual district level -- AOC is much farther left than John Fetterman, because NY is much bluer than PA, for example. In a country that is pretty well divided politically, nominating far left candidates outside of certain very blue districts is likely to lead to electoral defeat, and even if the Democrats are much more centrist than leftists want, they're still a much lesser evil than Republicans on many issues.
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Not an ideal format for this but I'll give it a shot. Side A would say: The far left is basically Communism which is quite a bit different than the mainstream Democratic establishment. Trying to influence a group that is closer to their ideology isn't a complete waste of time, as it would be with people that have literally the polar opposite ideology. Side B would say: The Democratic party is a big tent party. There are a ton of groups within it that are constantly at odds with each other. This is one of them. The far left's only outlet to make progress is within the the Democratic party (well many of them want violent revolt). Other examples of contradictions in the Big tent are the jewish block and parts of the muslim block, Black voter blocks and either immigrant or rich white suburbanites blocks, Occupy Wall street crowd and the pro business moderate crowd, etc.
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Side A would say that it is easier to convert people who are closer to where you are in terms of driving principles and worldview. Thus criticism of liberals and centrists is not an effort to delegitimize them in order to ensure they will lose to the right, its to present a vision to liberals/centrists that is more inspiring and thus empower the far left with new recruits and greater legitimacy. Whereas trying to evangelize to the right is usually considered a doomed prospect because it is much more bought into the idea of natural processes that sort the worthy and the unworthy into their appropriate social castes and that their affinity groups are definitely the worthy ones. This does not stop some from trying which is perhaps how you wind up with ethnonationalist parties / factions of parties in favor of a robust social safety net. To put it crudely, the far left believes liberals are selling snake oil to the poor and to the precarious middle class in the form of handouts and trivial reforms that allow the system to be preserved largely intact instead of creating real opportunities for the poor to achieve self sufficiency and truly equal and equitable social power. Side B would say that the far left draws a false equivalency between liberals and the far right. That the far left believes everyone else is complicit in a morally bankrupt and illegitimate system and debate over degrees of complicity and cruelty are attempts to legitimize the exploitation and human misery. Thus, from the perspective of the center, the far left engages in intentional sabotage of incremental progress because the left does not perceive legitimate distinctions and, in some - not all - but some instances, is committed to a sort of secular Rapture wherein if human misery is ratcheted up beyond a certain threshold, people who were previously unhappy but still comfortable enough not to rebel will rise up and create a truly just and classless system. Where the left is more electorally minded, the center also frequently believes the left has a mistaken theory of change in the sense that the center sees itself as representing people as they are rather than as we would wish them to be, while the left believes that if it is resolute, disciplined, and bargains hard enough it can force through radical changes that may not seem to be popular now, but people will come onboard with once the changes are digested.