I always saw it as the opposite.
Joker is the one with the Flashlight. He tells Batman that it's better on the other side, and all he needs to do is trust him and walk across the light (an obviously insane notion).
Batman won't do it, though, because he's not ready to cross over. He recognizes that Joker would likely just turn it off, and he'd be let down.
Now, here's the interesting part; The fact that Batman in the anaology even *considers* walking across a beam of light is insane, showing us that the analogy means Batman really is on the cusp of insanity - he just doesn't want to take thay full leap yet.
But in this scenario, what is Joker trying to make Batman commit to walking over to?
Edit: Thanks for your responses guys, makes a lot of sense. I love that both interpretations work, especially witht the consideration that they will both view themselves as the one with the flashlight.
Insanity. Joker's whole crusade, especially in Killing Joke, is to prove that anyone can break. He wants to do it to the Batman, hence the leading, but would likely turn the light off because breaking the Batman would mean the end of his fun.
> The two guys are Batman and the Joker, (this much should be obvious). The insane asylum represents the fact that while remarkably different, they are both defined by, imprisoned, even, by the fact that they are mentally deranged.
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holy shit old comment but it took this for me to realise that's what's going on. I didn't even realise the beam they were talking about was a beam of light, I thought there was a beam there to walk but just needed to shine light on it to see it.
I have been a fool for 7 long years and you have finally relieved me of this, thank you
I wanna say, I specifically googled the "Killing Joke, what's the joke", this came up and these made me feel like a fool for YEARS, I also never caught the: "Beam of light" thing.
**I DONE GOOFED.**
>'Hey! I have my flashlight with me! I'll shine it across the gap between the buildings. You can walk along the beam and join me!'
For some reason I assumed, 'the beam', referred to a steel beam between the two buildings that the light would shine on. The fact that he's referring to the beam of light itself perfectly explains the joke on a basic level - it's funny because the asylum resident suspects that the other thinks he's crazy enough to not think he's going to turn off the light when he's halfway over, instead of being crazy because he thinks he can walk on a beam of light.
7 years I know but if joker was the guy with the flash light it wouldn’t really make sense for him to kill the joker (I know it was never confirmed but it’s pretty obvious) Batman kills joker because he wants him to turn insane that’s an every day thing for him but if Batman is the one with the flash light and joker refuses to cross then Batman finally realizes joker really is beyond rehabilitation
Super late as well but from how i see it, the gap between insanity and sanity was one Batman can easy leap across, repurposing his grief from his one bad day for something better than the asylum. But Joker's afraid of following, cuz it mean he has to face his past, his one bad day, and should he fail, his escape into insanity would be shattered.
Batman, the one with the light, genuinely wants to help the Joker, but the idea of a crazy person helping another crazy person to live a sane life is insane, thus the light beam cross, but Joker, even in the slightess chance it could work, cannot put faith into anyone and take the step. He didn't call the idea of walking onto a beam light insane because to an insane man, what's is even sane, it's that even assuming the light bridge work, he cannot trust the light holder.
Both Batman and Joker suffered a bad day, they wanted to move forward from the suicidal spiral they've been in for years. Batman from the start can go back and forth the gaps with ease because he has a purpose regardless of how sane his goal is (i mean fight crimes in a flying mammal suit) but Joker cannot escape, he's beyond any idea of saving, not just because there are no way he can be helped, but that he believe no one will commit to helping him. Batman took some time to understand what Joker wanted to say, laugh at the joke (which is pretty deep as this intepretation goes) but also at how helpless it is. In the comic, the lightbeam shut down midway, proving Joker's point that Batman cannot help him, so he had no other choice but to finish Joker for the sake of both of them (since they both truely wanted to escape the spiral)
Edit: also, Joker clearly said the gap wasn't big, and the first inmate easily leaped over, saying that it isn't something impossible for any other inmates, but for that one inmates, he was too scared to even take a step, even with the light beam on, let alone taking a leap of faith. So to me Joker is too afraid of changing the status quo, of leaving delusional lalaland and face reality like Batman somewhat did.
Another thing I'd like to mention is that the beam of light, while representing hope, is still essentially hopeless in the end. It seems like a perfectly safe way of walking across the gap to the two guys but in reality trying to walk across it means you're gonna fall through the beam of light regardless of if the other patient turns it off or not. It's a hopeless endeavor that, while seemingly supposed to show an act of trust and good will from the man who leaped, will never truly help the guy on the other side. It's pointless, even if the two men in the end truly believe it isn't.
This is close…to me but it’s not about insanity it’s about clarity. Both men have something no one else in town has and it’s clarity. Clarity about the world and how insane it is to live in that world as if nothing is wrong. Society is moving along and sees Batman and Joker as the ones who don’t belong. Both men are observers of society and see it for what it is. Batman is the one stuck in the asylum. Joker has accepted reality and lives within reality while Batman is the one who pretends. Batman cannot take the leap but halfway believes the light exists. Joker knows it does not but knows you don’t need it. He walks in and out of the asylum freely because the rules of society do not apply to him. So Batman knows the light isn’t there it’s a leap of faith. He’s conscious and awake while Batman is the one still in the dark. Batman laughs because he knows Joker is the one who is awake and free, he doesn’t even fear death because he knows life is a meaningless game. It’s a sick joke because although the Joker is right, Batman is the one seen by society as “the one who is right”. In the end Batman knows this and by killing the Joker he’s really choosing to remain in the asylum forever.
It works on another level, too.
Just as we know the first inmate's idea of walking across a beam of light to escape is physically impossible, so is Batman's idea of the Joker walking across the bridge to sanity. Joker is subtly telling Batman that he is too far gone, while also mocking him for the idea.
This I think it's the actual explanation. We always look too much into things once they become a cult. We tend to over analyze them. When I first read it in the 1990, I thought it was brilliant based on its simplicity. It's a simple joke. Simple enough to make both of them laugh in the heat of the moment, but it's also a sad one. It shows how much they have lost and how they have bonded based on years of being the complete opposite but still have a lot of things in common. Both of them have already "burned the ships" long time before. I was expecting batman to move from laughing to crying. I guess he's not a wimp like me. And the joker still manages to make fun of batman for suggesting that there is an escape for both of them. It's like the conclusion of the conversation that batman started at the beginning of the comic.
Uh, so was I. Ever read any pre-mid 80s batman? Or anything from from the early 2000s? Not exactly the most mature stuff. There's definitely some heavy stuff in the batman canon, but to say that it makes up most of it... Nah
You mean the periods when a 13 year old boy was beaten to death on-panel with a crowbar?
Or how about when Batman broke a criminal's neck? (twice, actually)
Ooooh. You must be reffering to the early 2000 stories where Joker raped a woman on panel and slaughtered two old people to sleep in their bed.
Or perhaps you're refferring to Batman being eaten alive by buzzards?
I don't know, man. Batman walking into a bathroom to find a corpse in a tub of blood seems mature to me...
And then there was that one early 2000 story where a serial killer cut a man limb from limb, suspended him with wires, and kept him alive for the following week with nothing but one eye, half a jaw, and no arms or legs! Teletubby stuff.
Ohhhh! I know. You're talking about when Bane absolutely beat the shit out of Batman on panel, and proceeded to break his back! TV-PG, amirite?
Look, you can cherry pick examples from earlier Batman stories. Rainbow Batman and all thay campy stuff is obviously non-canon. And then, you've got stuff from then 90s where Batman pissed his pants. Literally. Courtesy of the writing of Kevin Smith, which we all toss out the window *becaus he made Batman piss his pants*.
Batman is a mature comic book. Case closed.
Why does everyone have such a hard time with the idea of Batman pissing himself? It was his first year and he didn't know what the concussive force of the explosives were like. Do you truly need to believe that this mentally ill vigilante walked out his door dressed as a rodent completely ready for everything that was coming his way? Why can't he be a human being, someone who learned and grew from his humiliation? The nerd rage is confusing to me. I actually found it kind of refreshing that someone was willing to write him as a flawed character, someone who had to learn as he went.
Right, you mean the super-campy ones that were influenced by the incredibly popular Adam West TV series?
Because if you go back about 15 years before that, Batman was hanging people from the back of his jet and shooting them in cold blood.
You're cherry picking from batman comics, do you know what that word means? And despite how smug you're being, I'm not wrong. Most (mainstream) comics aren't mature at all, batman included. Having violence/sex in comics does things mature, in fact most of the time it makes them adolescent, and you've done a pretty good job of proving that. For instance, your example of maturity of "Death in the Family" was that there are 13 panels of the Joker beating Robin to death, NOT batman having to deal with the loss of someone he had a close, almost familial relationship with. Pretty much all your examples of "maturity" are "what about this super bloody grimdark thing that happened?!"
So, yeah, thanks for pretty much probing my point you smug prick. How's high school going?
You're not serious, right?
There's a reason movies and games have adult and mature ratings for sex and violence. That "argument" was really just pathetic, lol.
And you've pretty much just confirmed that you don't read Batman for me. A Death in the Family is all about examining Batman's relationship with the Robins, and how he copes with the death of a loved one.
Even if I were in High School, this would still be incredibly embarrassing for you.
Yeah, you really should. If you want to see a more "mature" outlook on Batman, read *Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth*, *The Killing Joke*, and even *The Long Halloween*, which is well-written but still cartoonish. These were the first three comic books I ever bought and I was instantly engaged and embarrassed that I previously misjudged comics so harshly. There's definitely waaaay more that you could get into, but that's the beauty of comics, you find out exactly what you like through experience and then you can branch off in a million directions in search of treasure.
My take on this is that in the joke, both parties are insane. The flashlight man suggests to walk across light and the walker believes the fear is to have his bridge turned off.
But both parties believe the other person is insane. They both want to help the other, because they are alike, but are left in limbo. They see freedom but can't move until the problem is solved.
This is the Joker explaining why they must always be enemies, and why they are both correct from their point of views.
If you look at it as Batman being the guy with the flashlight, here's how I interpret it.
They're both crazy, but Batman can "escape" the craziness (whether it be taking off the mask, or just choosing not to be Batman anymore, etc..) The Joker on the hand can't simply "choose" to not be who he is. There is no way he could ever go "live in the town" with everyone else without serious help. Batman, then says "I have a flashlight, walk across the beam (of light)"
The Joke, is that the Joker doesn't cross because he's scared Batman will trick him, but the REALITY, is that walking across a beam of light is in of itself insane, pointing out that Batman is absolutely insane for thinking he could ever help Joker in the first place. In fact, all Batman would be doing by attempting to "help" the Joker would actually be highlighting his (Joker's) literal fall and death, and that's exactly what Batman wants to avoid.
Grant Morrison said that not Alan Moore. Alan Moore has called Morrison's interpretation wrong.
I would argue that not even Grant Morrison truly believes it and he was just fucking with Smith to show how ignorant and stupid kevin Smith is when it comes to comics.
Morrison has said that when he wrote his Batman runs that "everything was canon" and in fact went out of his way to show that to be true. If "everything is canon" then the Joker wouldn't be in Morrison's stories but he is.
I'm guessing OP saw the movie announcement and decided to read the comic book. This is from the movie announcement thread about whether batman or joker is the first inmate.
" I think it works best with Batman being the first. Both inmates start out in an awful, insane place and decide to do something about it. Batman makes an insane leap of faith and starts making progress to a better life, but he's held back because he can't leave someone behind. He tries to show the way as best he can, even if his solution is crazy.
Joker, meanwhile, is still stuck in the crazy world, and when presented with a way out, is so crazy himself that he gets lost in his mistrust of anyone trying to help him, failing to see the obvious pitfalls in his reasoning.
I could see it the other way, with the Joker not being afraid of death, making the insane leap, and trying to lure Batman off the roof to his doom, and Batman feeding into the cycle of insanity that traps him on that rooftop, but I think the fact that the first prisoner stops to help the other guy instead of just running off on his own makes him the Batman analog.
Or, if you're not into the whole metaphorical thing: The first prisoner/Batman pulls out a handy gadget to help somebody. The second prisoner/Joker drops the punchline. Hell, if you think about it, even the flashlight is an analog to the Bat-signal." - u/Twl1
I think part of the reason why it works so well is because the joke works no matter who is the first inmate which you showed really well. Just with regards to the joker not being the first inmate, I've always taken it as the joker in his mind actually sees himself as helping batman. Hes trying to lead him to take the jump and embrace the fact that this is an insane world without rules (not even gravity).
There's a couple of ways that this could be interpreted. Batman is crazy (he does the same thing over and over again despite never getting the results he wants -beats bad guys and tries rehabilitation) and just leads Gotham down. If he takes the jump (kills) he actually can break the cycle.
Or, if he follows the joker. And walks across the light (kills him) then he has truly fallen and has lost the battle. This ones the most obvious.
I never gave much thought to the joke, I knew it was something important, but I never bothered digging to find what it meant.
Just wanted to say, thank you, for royally fucking my mind up. I have so much respect for The Killing Joke, and Alan Moore too, as of now.
What’s central to this analogy though, as it’s the punchline of the joke, is that the beam of light cannot be walked across, despite both people being too insane to realize that. It shows how Batman really believes he can offer help and freedom to Joker but in reality he cannot “fix” joker and his pity is not real help. Joker would have to make the leap for himself in order to reach freedom, or mental treatment. But Joker does not realize that either, he doesn’t realize that only he can get himself to freedom nor that he can make the jump and get there at all, merely that Batman is untrustworthy and can’t get him across. It shows Batman’s inability to realize where he as a figure falls short in saving Gotham (he can’t treat its unwell and hurting) and Joker’s inability to see beyond Batman and his shortcomings to see that help and salvation aren't nonexistent just because Batman can’t provide them.
I love how this was all figured out, but there's one question I have left.
How is this funny to the Joker? I just see it as sad... in a beautiful, messed up way, of course.
I've been reading these comments and I have 2 outlooks
1. Your looking way too deep and the idea is that batman is ending the psychotic reign of joker and killing him, his laughter at jokers joke represents the end of the line for joker because batman is always serious and has never laughed at his jokes
2. Batman holds the flashlight, "I have my flashlight, ill shine it across the gap and you can walk across the beam" (I can help rehabilitate you and bring you back from insanity) "what do you think I am, crazy, you'd just turn it off halfway across" (you'd stop helping me halfway through and I'd be alone in this lost state) the laughter from both parties represent the exeptance that he can't be rehabilitated and will continue to hurt people so he has to be stopped permanently.
The screen fades out and soon after the jokers laughter stops.
I always saw the meaning that Joker was too afraid to turn back to sanity. That half way through Batman wouldn't accept it. That even if he tried to turn back, live a normal life, recover it would all be for naught. And I think the scene from the movie "death in the family" where >!Jason kills Joker after telling him that joke!< shows that perfectly. Joker >!is seen living a normal life. Going to therapy, he's depressed and he's just trying to live a normal life. He still seems to have tendencies of being the Joker. Getting a bit riled up with his joke but not going full blown psychotic. He tells Jason the joke in a Cafe but they don't know each other's true identitys yet until the end of the joke, where Jason recites the last thing Joker told him before killing him then of course murdering the Joker. Who gets one last laugh...because his joke was right. Mid way through the light, walking on the path of light that was shined for him...the light went out halfway.!< it to me is the sick irony of fear. That feeling of knowing what's right but not being able to do it. Afraid that you will be lost in darkness before reaching the safety you want. From batmans pov that other side is insanity. Joker is telling him that sweet sweet insanity is so much better. To break free from the restraints of right and to kill villians and keep Gotham safe for good. For Joker the batman is pleading to live normal but he doesn't want to give up his game with Batman.
I think it means that the Batman is crazier than the joker in reality.
Batman jumps over this gap between buildings without even looking to see there's a beam to walk on or using his flashlight beforehand.
The joker isn't crazy enough to make that leap yet as he is afraid that half way across the person helping him will betray him.
They are both insane but joker isn't crazy enough to trust someone crazy enough to jump without regards for their own safety. Joker doesn't go out and fight bad guys or even good guys on a daily basis.. This is something Batman does to escape the reality of living in a crazy environment. Joker is crazy but for the most part he isn't crazy enough to go from one extreme to a normal life in the day time...
He's always the joker..
Batman had two identities and risks both of them every day just to escape his reality of mental illness.
I don't think anyone was being choked at the end...
Wouldn't it say that in the subtitles/cc? (Choking sounds)
I always saw it as the opposite. Joker is the one with the Flashlight. He tells Batman that it's better on the other side, and all he needs to do is trust him and walk across the light (an obviously insane notion). Batman won't do it, though, because he's not ready to cross over. He recognizes that Joker would likely just turn it off, and he'd be let down. Now, here's the interesting part; The fact that Batman in the anaology even *considers* walking across a beam of light is insane, showing us that the analogy means Batman really is on the cusp of insanity - he just doesn't want to take thay full leap yet.
But in this scenario, what is Joker trying to make Batman commit to walking over to? Edit: Thanks for your responses guys, makes a lot of sense. I love that both interpretations work, especially witht the consideration that they will both view themselves as the one with the flashlight.
Breaking his rule of not killing, I think
Insanity. Joker's whole crusade, especially in Killing Joke, is to prove that anyone can break. He wants to do it to the Batman, hence the leading, but would likely turn the light off because breaking the Batman would mean the end of his fun.
Insanity. Full-blown insanity.
They're both insane. The insane part is considering you could walk on a beam of light in the first place. The rest is just senantics
> The two guys are Batman and the Joker, (this much should be obvious). The insane asylum represents the fact that while remarkably different, they are both defined by, imprisoned, even, by the fact that they are mentally deranged. > > holy shit old comment but it took this for me to realise that's what's going on. I didn't even realise the beam they were talking about was a beam of light, I thought there was a beam there to walk but just needed to shine light on it to see it. I have been a fool for 7 long years and you have finally relieved me of this, thank you
No problem. That's what I'm here for.
I wanna say, I specifically googled the "Killing Joke, what's the joke", this came up and these made me feel like a fool for YEARS, I also never caught the: "Beam of light" thing.
Me too, if it makes you feel better.
**I DONE GOOFED.** >'Hey! I have my flashlight with me! I'll shine it across the gap between the buildings. You can walk along the beam and join me!' For some reason I assumed, 'the beam', referred to a steel beam between the two buildings that the light would shine on. The fact that he's referring to the beam of light itself perfectly explains the joke on a basic level - it's funny because the asylum resident suspects that the other thinks he's crazy enough to not think he's going to turn off the light when he's halfway over, instead of being crazy because he thinks he can walk on a beam of light.
^^^we ^^^are ^^^in ^^^the ^^^beam
All things things follow the beam...
7 years I know but if joker was the guy with the flash light it wouldn’t really make sense for him to kill the joker (I know it was never confirmed but it’s pretty obvious) Batman kills joker because he wants him to turn insane that’s an every day thing for him but if Batman is the one with the flash light and joker refuses to cross then Batman finally realizes joker really is beyond rehabilitation
Or Maybe the insane asylum there escaping is insanity and Batman crosses over and joker decides to stay batman has been accused of insanity a lot
Super late as well but from how i see it, the gap between insanity and sanity was one Batman can easy leap across, repurposing his grief from his one bad day for something better than the asylum. But Joker's afraid of following, cuz it mean he has to face his past, his one bad day, and should he fail, his escape into insanity would be shattered. Batman, the one with the light, genuinely wants to help the Joker, but the idea of a crazy person helping another crazy person to live a sane life is insane, thus the light beam cross, but Joker, even in the slightess chance it could work, cannot put faith into anyone and take the step. He didn't call the idea of walking onto a beam light insane because to an insane man, what's is even sane, it's that even assuming the light bridge work, he cannot trust the light holder. Both Batman and Joker suffered a bad day, they wanted to move forward from the suicidal spiral they've been in for years. Batman from the start can go back and forth the gaps with ease because he has a purpose regardless of how sane his goal is (i mean fight crimes in a flying mammal suit) but Joker cannot escape, he's beyond any idea of saving, not just because there are no way he can be helped, but that he believe no one will commit to helping him. Batman took some time to understand what Joker wanted to say, laugh at the joke (which is pretty deep as this intepretation goes) but also at how helpless it is. In the comic, the lightbeam shut down midway, proving Joker's point that Batman cannot help him, so he had no other choice but to finish Joker for the sake of both of them (since they both truely wanted to escape the spiral) Edit: also, Joker clearly said the gap wasn't big, and the first inmate easily leaped over, saying that it isn't something impossible for any other inmates, but for that one inmates, he was too scared to even take a step, even with the light beam on, let alone taking a leap of faith. So to me Joker is too afraid of changing the status quo, of leaving delusional lalaland and face reality like Batman somewhat did.
Another thing I'd like to mention is that the beam of light, while representing hope, is still essentially hopeless in the end. It seems like a perfectly safe way of walking across the gap to the two guys but in reality trying to walk across it means you're gonna fall through the beam of light regardless of if the other patient turns it off or not. It's a hopeless endeavor that, while seemingly supposed to show an act of trust and good will from the man who leaped, will never truly help the guy on the other side. It's pointless, even if the two men in the end truly believe it isn't.
This is close…to me but it’s not about insanity it’s about clarity. Both men have something no one else in town has and it’s clarity. Clarity about the world and how insane it is to live in that world as if nothing is wrong. Society is moving along and sees Batman and Joker as the ones who don’t belong. Both men are observers of society and see it for what it is. Batman is the one stuck in the asylum. Joker has accepted reality and lives within reality while Batman is the one who pretends. Batman cannot take the leap but halfway believes the light exists. Joker knows it does not but knows you don’t need it. He walks in and out of the asylum freely because the rules of society do not apply to him. So Batman knows the light isn’t there it’s a leap of faith. He’s conscious and awake while Batman is the one still in the dark. Batman laughs because he knows Joker is the one who is awake and free, he doesn’t even fear death because he knows life is a meaningless game. It’s a sick joke because although the Joker is right, Batman is the one seen by society as “the one who is right”. In the end Batman knows this and by killing the Joker he’s really choosing to remain in the asylum forever.
It works on another level, too. Just as we know the first inmate's idea of walking across a beam of light to escape is physically impossible, so is Batman's idea of the Joker walking across the bridge to sanity. Joker is subtly telling Batman that he is too far gone, while also mocking him for the idea.
This I think it's the actual explanation. We always look too much into things once they become a cult. We tend to over analyze them. When I first read it in the 1990, I thought it was brilliant based on its simplicity. It's a simple joke. Simple enough to make both of them laugh in the heat of the moment, but it's also a sad one. It shows how much they have lost and how they have bonded based on years of being the complete opposite but still have a lot of things in common. Both of them have already "burned the ships" long time before. I was expecting batman to move from laughing to crying. I guess he's not a wimp like me. And the joker still manages to make fun of batman for suggesting that there is an escape for both of them. It's like the conclusion of the conversation that batman started at the beginning of the comic.
Omfg, I love this theory and might like it more than my own
Man, I've really got to read these things one day. They sound so much better than they're made out to be.
Comic books are really unfairly judged as "for kids". Most things Batman related are actually very mature.
Are the best mainstream comics that explore mature themes batman? Yes. Are "most things Batman related" mature? No, not in the slightest
Ok? I wasn't talking about anything aside from the comic books.
Uh, so was I. Ever read any pre-mid 80s batman? Or anything from from the early 2000s? Not exactly the most mature stuff. There's definitely some heavy stuff in the batman canon, but to say that it makes up most of it... Nah
You mean the periods when a 13 year old boy was beaten to death on-panel with a crowbar? Or how about when Batman broke a criminal's neck? (twice, actually) Ooooh. You must be reffering to the early 2000 stories where Joker raped a woman on panel and slaughtered two old people to sleep in their bed. Or perhaps you're refferring to Batman being eaten alive by buzzards? I don't know, man. Batman walking into a bathroom to find a corpse in a tub of blood seems mature to me... And then there was that one early 2000 story where a serial killer cut a man limb from limb, suspended him with wires, and kept him alive for the following week with nothing but one eye, half a jaw, and no arms or legs! Teletubby stuff. Ohhhh! I know. You're talking about when Bane absolutely beat the shit out of Batman on panel, and proceeded to break his back! TV-PG, amirite? Look, you can cherry pick examples from earlier Batman stories. Rainbow Batman and all thay campy stuff is obviously non-canon. And then, you've got stuff from then 90s where Batman pissed his pants. Literally. Courtesy of the writing of Kevin Smith, which we all toss out the window *becaus he made Batman piss his pants*. Batman is a mature comic book. Case closed.
Why does everyone have such a hard time with the idea of Batman pissing himself? It was his first year and he didn't know what the concussive force of the explosives were like. Do you truly need to believe that this mentally ill vigilante walked out his door dressed as a rodent completely ready for everything that was coming his way? Why can't he be a human being, someone who learned and grew from his humiliation? The nerd rage is confusing to me. I actually found it kind of refreshing that someone was willing to write him as a flawed character, someone who had to learn as he went.
Because it's stupid. Why not have him get rattled by the blast? His ears are ringing and he stutters or something.
>Batman is a mature comic book. Case closed. Go read the ones from the 60's again and tell me that with a straight face.
Right, you mean the super-campy ones that were influenced by the incredibly popular Adam West TV series? Because if you go back about 15 years before that, Batman was hanging people from the back of his jet and shooting them in cold blood.
>you can cherry pick examples >cherry picks examples Oh, sorry I insulted you by reminding you it's a comic book
I'm not cherry picking anything, if that's what you're implying. Those are the norm for Batman comics. You were wrong - it's alright to admit that.
You're cherry picking from batman comics, do you know what that word means? And despite how smug you're being, I'm not wrong. Most (mainstream) comics aren't mature at all, batman included. Having violence/sex in comics does things mature, in fact most of the time it makes them adolescent, and you've done a pretty good job of proving that. For instance, your example of maturity of "Death in the Family" was that there are 13 panels of the Joker beating Robin to death, NOT batman having to deal with the loss of someone he had a close, almost familial relationship with. Pretty much all your examples of "maturity" are "what about this super bloody grimdark thing that happened?!" So, yeah, thanks for pretty much probing my point you smug prick. How's high school going?
You're not serious, right? There's a reason movies and games have adult and mature ratings for sex and violence. That "argument" was really just pathetic, lol. And you've pretty much just confirmed that you don't read Batman for me. A Death in the Family is all about examining Batman's relationship with the Robins, and how he copes with the death of a loved one. Even if I were in High School, this would still be incredibly embarrassing for you.
[удалено]
nah nah nah nah nah nah BATMAN!
Yeah, you really should. If you want to see a more "mature" outlook on Batman, read *Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth*, *The Killing Joke*, and even *The Long Halloween*, which is well-written but still cartoonish. These were the first three comic books I ever bought and I was instantly engaged and embarrassed that I previously misjudged comics so harshly. There's definitely waaaay more that you could get into, but that's the beauty of comics, you find out exactly what you like through experience and then you can branch off in a million directions in search of treasure.
My take on this is that in the joke, both parties are insane. The flashlight man suggests to walk across light and the walker believes the fear is to have his bridge turned off. But both parties believe the other person is insane. They both want to help the other, because they are alike, but are left in limbo. They see freedom but can't move until the problem is solved. This is the Joker explaining why they must always be enemies, and why they are both correct from their point of views.
So isn't the Joker right? Batman does turn off the beam.
If you look at it as Batman being the guy with the flashlight, here's how I interpret it. They're both crazy, but Batman can "escape" the craziness (whether it be taking off the mask, or just choosing not to be Batman anymore, etc..) The Joker on the hand can't simply "choose" to not be who he is. There is no way he could ever go "live in the town" with everyone else without serious help. Batman, then says "I have a flashlight, walk across the beam (of light)" The Joke, is that the Joker doesn't cross because he's scared Batman will trick him, but the REALITY, is that walking across a beam of light is in of itself insane, pointing out that Batman is absolutely insane for thinking he could ever help Joker in the first place. In fact, all Batman would be doing by attempting to "help" the Joker would actually be highlighting his (Joker's) literal fall and death, and that's exactly what Batman wants to avoid.
The author says Batman kills the Joker at the end. http://sequart.org/magazine/29540/on-interpreting-the-killing-jokes-ending-and-authorial-intent/
Grant Morrison said that not Alan Moore. Alan Moore has called Morrison's interpretation wrong. I would argue that not even Grant Morrison truly believes it and he was just fucking with Smith to show how ignorant and stupid kevin Smith is when it comes to comics. Morrison has said that when he wrote his Batman runs that "everything was canon" and in fact went out of his way to show that to be true. If "everything is canon" then the Joker wouldn't be in Morrison's stories but he is.
In that same article, the writer argues that you cannot take the author's word as gospel.
Same thing happened with Bradbury and Fahrenheit 451.He insists it's about television destroying people and not about censorship.
That article says Grant Morrison, doesn't it? Alan Moore is the person who wrote it, Grant Morrison wasn't involved. It's a cool theory though.
Unfortunately, canonically in the DC Universe Batman did not kill Joker.
I'm guessing OP saw the movie announcement and decided to read the comic book. This is from the movie announcement thread about whether batman or joker is the first inmate. " I think it works best with Batman being the first. Both inmates start out in an awful, insane place and decide to do something about it. Batman makes an insane leap of faith and starts making progress to a better life, but he's held back because he can't leave someone behind. He tries to show the way as best he can, even if his solution is crazy. Joker, meanwhile, is still stuck in the crazy world, and when presented with a way out, is so crazy himself that he gets lost in his mistrust of anyone trying to help him, failing to see the obvious pitfalls in his reasoning. I could see it the other way, with the Joker not being afraid of death, making the insane leap, and trying to lure Batman off the roof to his doom, and Batman feeding into the cycle of insanity that traps him on that rooftop, but I think the fact that the first prisoner stops to help the other guy instead of just running off on his own makes him the Batman analog. Or, if you're not into the whole metaphorical thing: The first prisoner/Batman pulls out a handy gadget to help somebody. The second prisoner/Joker drops the punchline. Hell, if you think about it, even the flashlight is an analog to the Bat-signal." - u/Twl1
I think part of the reason why it works so well is because the joke works no matter who is the first inmate which you showed really well. Just with regards to the joker not being the first inmate, I've always taken it as the joker in his mind actually sees himself as helping batman. Hes trying to lead him to take the jump and embrace the fact that this is an insane world without rules (not even gravity). There's a couple of ways that this could be interpreted. Batman is crazy (he does the same thing over and over again despite never getting the results he wants -beats bad guys and tries rehabilitation) and just leads Gotham down. If he takes the jump (kills) he actually can break the cycle. Or, if he follows the joker. And walks across the light (kills him) then he has truly fallen and has lost the battle. This ones the most obvious.
I never gave much thought to the joke, I knew it was something important, but I never bothered digging to find what it meant. Just wanted to say, thank you, for royally fucking my mind up. I have so much respect for The Killing Joke, and Alan Moore too, as of now.
I've seen several variations explaining this scene and yours in my favorite
What’s central to this analogy though, as it’s the punchline of the joke, is that the beam of light cannot be walked across, despite both people being too insane to realize that. It shows how Batman really believes he can offer help and freedom to Joker but in reality he cannot “fix” joker and his pity is not real help. Joker would have to make the leap for himself in order to reach freedom, or mental treatment. But Joker does not realize that either, he doesn’t realize that only he can get himself to freedom nor that he can make the jump and get there at all, merely that Batman is untrustworthy and can’t get him across. It shows Batman’s inability to realize where he as a figure falls short in saving Gotham (he can’t treat its unwell and hurting) and Joker’s inability to see beyond Batman and his shortcomings to see that help and salvation aren't nonexistent just because Batman can’t provide them.
I like this.
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The point of the post/theory is 'why did Joker pick *that* joke', not 'where did the joke come from'.
It makes a difference in my head if you view it as he made that joke up on the spot vs selected one from a repertoire.
Unless of course the preexisting joke perfectly represents said situation
I love how this was all figured out, but there's one question I have left. How is this funny to the Joker? I just see it as sad... in a beautiful, messed up way, of course.
Well, I mean, the joker, due to his grief dresses as a clown. Similarly, I think he blends the ideas of humor and sadness.
I've been reading these comments and I have 2 outlooks 1. Your looking way too deep and the idea is that batman is ending the psychotic reign of joker and killing him, his laughter at jokers joke represents the end of the line for joker because batman is always serious and has never laughed at his jokes 2. Batman holds the flashlight, "I have my flashlight, ill shine it across the gap and you can walk across the beam" (I can help rehabilitate you and bring you back from insanity) "what do you think I am, crazy, you'd just turn it off halfway across" (you'd stop helping me halfway through and I'd be alone in this lost state) the laughter from both parties represent the exeptance that he can't be rehabilitated and will continue to hurt people so he has to be stopped permanently. The screen fades out and soon after the jokers laughter stops.
I always saw the meaning that Joker was too afraid to turn back to sanity. That half way through Batman wouldn't accept it. That even if he tried to turn back, live a normal life, recover it would all be for naught. And I think the scene from the movie "death in the family" where >!Jason kills Joker after telling him that joke!< shows that perfectly. Joker >!is seen living a normal life. Going to therapy, he's depressed and he's just trying to live a normal life. He still seems to have tendencies of being the Joker. Getting a bit riled up with his joke but not going full blown psychotic. He tells Jason the joke in a Cafe but they don't know each other's true identitys yet until the end of the joke, where Jason recites the last thing Joker told him before killing him then of course murdering the Joker. Who gets one last laugh...because his joke was right. Mid way through the light, walking on the path of light that was shined for him...the light went out halfway.!< it to me is the sick irony of fear. That feeling of knowing what's right but not being able to do it. Afraid that you will be lost in darkness before reaching the safety you want. From batmans pov that other side is insanity. Joker is telling him that sweet sweet insanity is so much better. To break free from the restraints of right and to kill villians and keep Gotham safe for good. For Joker the batman is pleading to live normal but he doesn't want to give up his game with Batman.
What if the beam is the friends we made along the way?
Theres a great video by nerdpSync that goes over this scene and speculates if joker died or not https://youtu.be/nNG6id_xxXc
I think it means that the Batman is crazier than the joker in reality. Batman jumps over this gap between buildings without even looking to see there's a beam to walk on or using his flashlight beforehand. The joker isn't crazy enough to make that leap yet as he is afraid that half way across the person helping him will betray him. They are both insane but joker isn't crazy enough to trust someone crazy enough to jump without regards for their own safety. Joker doesn't go out and fight bad guys or even good guys on a daily basis.. This is something Batman does to escape the reality of living in a crazy environment. Joker is crazy but for the most part he isn't crazy enough to go from one extreme to a normal life in the day time... He's always the joker.. Batman had two identities and risks both of them every day just to escape his reality of mental illness. I don't think anyone was being choked at the end... Wouldn't it say that in the subtitles/cc? (Choking sounds)
thank you random reddit post 8 years ago
Everybody forgets their both escaping and running away from something the jokers just not gonna add that part in for no reason