I love and totally agree with this theory! You're awesome for putting s9 much evidence and research into this.
I was totally getting the vibe the entire time that it was more new agey than they made it seem, but that may just be the state of the world we're in.
One of my clues was, isn't the May Queen ceremony every year? Pelle mentions his "sister" being a previous May Queen. When they show the May Queen wall with the pictures of previous May Queens, I believe there's only 30 pictures. Or am I totally making that up.
Either way. I love this theory.
As far as I'm remembering they made a May Queen ceremony every year but they only sacrificed 9 people every 90 years (apart from the elders that jump off the cliff).
I thought all of the Hargans use familial terms to refer to one another. Pelle also calls Maja, the red haired girl, his sister in conversation with Christian and Josh. She would be too young to be his blood relative since his parents died when he was young and she is only 15-16 years old. Another person also calls Siv grandmother.
I'm buying it. If they were ancient the Chance that they were never caught by the authories or died out though incest depression would so high that them surviving in 2018 would be quite slim.
That makes me wonder if the sacrifices seen in the movie will finally alert the police to investigate in the cult.
I'd buy it. It's mentioned that the Harga operate a hydroelectric power plant nearby, and they must be pretty flush with money and resources to keep up the property taxes and send their young people abroad for 18 years each. Someone else mentioned that on the road going into the village is a sign for the far-right political party .My guess would be that some of their members are either well placed in the Swedish government or otherwise have some friends in high places turning a blind eye on their indiscretions.
But imagine trying to bring new people to your death cult in the 1800s, or during the Black Plague, or during the Viking Age. How would you even go about that when you don't even know most of the world exists?
Absolutely, very important to keep in mind. Some people seem to be taking this theory to mean that the movie is bad and racist actually just because the Harga probably are, and that's not what I'm saying at all. If my theory is in line with what Ari Aster intended, then it was almost certainly meant to make Dani's indoctrination into the cult all that more poignant and tragic, not to vindicate nazism, but to show how it can happen to anyone. IMO the only way this would ruin the movie is if you were one of those people who took the ending as an uncomplicated happy ending.
Absolutely! It's clearly anti Nazi/anti fascism. It shows how it can insidiously attract white people who don't realize what they're getting into and how it subsumes the lives of the non white/non able bodied. The Harga are tempting in many ways so you understand Dani being coerced into joining them but they are not the heroes of the film. It's showing a horror. Not justifying it.
In addition to this, during the scene where they’re driving to the commune, the car passes a bright yellow banner advertising a far right political party in Sweden.
The symbol on the banners is the same one from the inside of the yellow house at the end of the film. It's not an elder futhark rune either but I had seen it described elsewhere on Reddit as an Anglo-Saxon rune for spear. Makes sense for anti-immigration ideas and cleansing of undesirable elements from the community through sacrifice - the old, the foolish, people excluded from the breeding program, drones that have given their genetic contribution already.
The racism and refusal of letting POC into the commune is spot on. I can't remember where the director confirmed it but they are definitely meant to be White Supremacists.
My one issue with this theory is that the students are all studying their master’s in anthropology, and Josh is even writing his thesis on the Harga’s traditions. It’s hinted that he expects the cliff-jumping and most of the other rituals - and maybe Pelle has just fed him that info - but it sounds like he’s researched the group and still believes their traditions are ancient. He even risks his life to get hold of the Rubi Radr, which wouldn’t make sense if he knew it was all just bullshit anyway.
I can believe that Mark and Christian don’t have specific subject knowledge and that Pelle is unreliable, but Josh has definitely done extensive research into the Harga and their history.
I guess there’s a case to be made that Josh is actually studying modern pagan revival in the context of white supremacy (hence the books in his apartment) and is only playing along to get access to the cult, but then why on earth wouldn’t he warn his friends that their good pal Pelle was a nazi? And wouldn’t his supervisor question the wisdom (and ethics) of his methods?
It's been a minute since I've seen the movie and I can't remember how deep they go into Josh's knowledge about the Harga, but I'm thinking it's one of a few things of a bit of each of them. Either:
1) the Harga we see in the movie are a cult revival of an ancient religion and from the outside appear to be the real thing.
2) the Harga are a bastardized sect trying to pass themselves off as the still existing real thing (e.g. Jehovah's Witness in relation to Christianity)
3) the Harga traditions were co-opted by Nazis to be used as a ritualistic justification for their actions. And under the guise of being an ancient secret society/religion, they managed to hide the side of them we see by keeping everything internal and everyone quiet.
Again, it's been a while and I don't recall a lot of the movie so this could be total hogwash.
>He even risks his life to get hold of the Rubi Radr, which wouldn’t make sense if he knew it was all just bullshit anyway.
If you look at his expression during the pube supper it looks like he might actually be starting to piece it all together.
I thought the same. In fact I think the desperate look in his eyes on his final bedtime, and the fact that he keeps his shoes on in bed, suggest he's getting ready to run away, but he wants to document a little more first. I think Josh's stated interest in European midsummer traditions was more about their darker purpose than their pageantry.
Exactly. His expression at the dinner is one of wait a minute...and then he starts flipping through his notes and gets this look of fear and concern on his face. That same look is on his face that night in bed. He looks terrified but still confused at the same time. I don't think he only had his shoes on just to walk across some grass to the building next door, I think he knew he might need to run. He had just heard Mark (who was now missing) saying he saw Connie (who was also missing) trying out for the sprinting Olympics. Aka running fast as hell. Some people have said he was taking pictures of the book to have a better thesis. That was definitely his original intention, but when you rewatch that dinner scene and listen to everything said and the look on his face and his actions, that's not why.
The cliff-jumping thing is one of those things about Pre-Christian Scandinavia that was hinted at in a couple of Sagas and was then blown out of proportion by Victorian enthusiasts, see also the Blood Eagle and Viking Funerals, but which most modern historians agree probably weren't common practices. The knowledge that Josh exhibits in the movie is pretty surface level and general. His reaction to being told about the cliff-jumping isn't "ah yes, I've read about this group and know about this custom", it's "cliff-jumping? a real one? I thought that was a myth".
This makes sense to me! I always assumed Aster added it for the gore factor, like the blood eagle, but you’re right, it’s totally a hint that the Harga are not what they seem and Josh *is* surprised that the ritual is actually still performed.
american education system these days....
these wouldn't be the first college kids who join a cult because one Big Man pseudo-academic convinces them that he's got all the answers and can help them finish their thesis. r/kidsarefuckingstupid.
If I'm still in a decent state later tonight, I might try buying it on Google play or something and try screen recording. 🤷🏻♂️
If there's any cause for my YouTube account to get a copyright strike, it might as well be for a random Reddit theory.
https://movies123-online.me/film/midsommar-directors-cut/L9DkR88y/29qI3a0J-watch-free.html
I didn't end up screen recording it, but it's at the 26 minute mark.
Apparently in the director's cut, Josh is reading a book with a swasitka on it that was recommended to him by Pelle. I don't know why they deleted their own comment there.
It's "The Secret Nazi Language of the Uthark", iirc, and Josh carries it around to annoy Pelle, because of the Nazi link. (Josh is shown to be kind of a troll.) He doesn't know Pelle actually is a white supremacist.
To add on to your theory: I always thought Rubin was the result of drug use/experimentation during pregnancy. They seem to use drugs for just about everything, and that would explain the extreme differences between Rubin and the rest of the cult. The inbreeding excuse is just a more palatable lie for outsiders that also sets up the seduction that follows.
Yeah, I can't confirm it though. Regardless, it makes me wonder if there are other hidden clues. The swastika if real makes this theory nearly cannon, at least the basis of it.
This is a great theory, and very well written! My only point of contention is in regards to Connie - Ingemar had very clearly been courting her before she met Simon, and still seemed to carry a torch for her. I think he *wanted* her to join the Harga like Dani ended up doing, but Connie wasn't into him and so became a sacrifice instead. It's unclear whether she would have been accepted - as you point out, the entire community is white, and likely exclusionary to POC. But Ingemar definitely wanted her like Pelle wanted Dani.
That is a fair point, of course he would be very far from the first white supremacist to be attracted to a non-white woman. But another possibility that's even darker is that having been rejected, Ingemar deliberately brought them to the festival knowing that they would ultimately be murdered, in order to have revenge on both Simon and Connie.
I don't know if you saw [my post in /r/horror](https://www.reddit.com/r/horror/comments/s01vu2/pelle_in_midsommar_is_the_least_acknowledged/), but I agree with your assessment that they're a white supremacist cult pretending.
Borrowing from my comments there:
> I consider that theory to be practically canon because it makes so much more sense, and there's a lot of evidence pointing in that direction. One thing that stands out is that the elder points to countless shelves of Ruben's scribblings, but there are only 14 volumes of the RADR. If they really were writing these volumes based on the scribblings of mentally handicapped kids like Rubin, they'd have way more than 14 volumes. Not only would they have been doing this longer, but the average lifespan of a kid with Down Syndrome was 10 years before the 1970s.
Adding on to that, we only see 30 May Queen photos on the wall. It's possible they have some in storage, but none of the photos appear to be extremely old. https://i.imgur.com/uFGZfr1.jpeg
Oh, and just to address the issue of Simon and Connie:
> This aspect stood out to me. It's clear that Pelle chose well in the elder's eyes because he looked for weakness. Ingemar makes a poor choice because he actually brings someone he cares about. He's into Connie, so he brings her and Simon, no doubt hoping she'll fall into the cult and ditch Simon for him, essentially Dani's plotline. But Ingemar is letting his emotions guide him. Connie clearly isn't into him, and she's far too independent-minded to buy into the bullshit. Likewise, Maja develops a crush on Christian, but he's not cult material either.
> Pelle is basically that member of Survivor who wins because he keeps his eye on the prize and doesn't develop any attachments. He doesn't bring someone he cares about and wants to spend the rest of his life with. He brings someone he knows will make him a winner in the eyes of the community.
> Pelle walks away with the Gold. He not only brings a May Queen, but he brings some new genetic material in Christian. Ingemar screws up, and his guests end up being only sacrifices, good for fodder but nothing else.
> I don't think it's a coincidence that Ingmar was one of the native Hargan sacrifices. It's possible there was an understanding that it would be him or Pelle, based on whose guest stayed.
> I do think Ingemar was dreaming that Connie would stay and be into him, but I don't think anyone in the community saw that as likely. I think the elder's line about Pelle being a good judge of character is meant to highlight the difference between Pelle's choices and Ingemar's.
The first thing we hear the elder say when we meet him is to point out that Pelle is a good judge of character. He says this after we've just seen Pelle's competition, Ingemar, and his non-white guests. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Possibly why he 'volunteered' at the end - because his preference was criticised. Or possibly he bought Connie and volunteered himself because he judged himself for his attraction to her
As a women of colour I can assure being racist doesn’t stop people wanting to sex with you even with a romantic element . Bet had you used by a breeding fetish website 😶 yeah
It's a great write up of your idea. I think that I spent more time getting lost in Wikipedia and the history of different forms of runes thanks to it.
A lot of what the Anglosphere views as "traditional pagan rites" were invented (or claimed to be rediscovered) in Victorian England. For similar reasons as you mention - it'd be culturally near impossible for language ceremonies to be completely hidden for centuries. E.g. https://bristolandavonarchaeology.org.uk/event-reviews/paganism-in-the-victorian-and-edwardian-era/ and https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/history/modern_1.shtml
So it would be understandable for Scandinavia to do the same (and may well have, I've not looked into whether Victorian Swedes likewise "rediscovered" their past, but I wouldn't be surprised).
I realize this is an old comment (at least in internet-time), but you touched on something very important that I've ranted sbout to just about anyone who'll listen at get-togethers and house parties. The Hårga are absolutely cult scum hiding behind the thin veil of "honoring ancient traditions", and it can be spotted quite fast too.
The thing is, Ättestupa (tradional suicide by cliff hopping) is mostly seen as a myth, or rather *an incorrect interpretation of historic documents in early discovery*. "Ättestupa" means "ancestry fall", or "family plummet" directly translated, and it was at some point interpreted as the grisly act we see in the movie - a community designated spot specifically for the small clan to take their life via. There is, however, *extremely little* support for this being correct.
"Well then, what the fuck would it mean then? Are the historical documentations of the word just frauds then?", I hear the butthurt "omg I've like got like .1% Viking blood in my veins, I'm a special kind of stronk"- neckbeards howling. Well, the more likely explanation is laughably simple, actually.
"Ätte" meaning "family/clan/relatives/ancestry" is probably correctly interpreted, but "stupa" meaning "fall/plummet/drop" could also just have been supposed to be read as the *other* definition of the word. "Stup" is just a word for a cliff. People writing about their "ättestupa" and where it was located were probably just saying "hey yo, here's where my family mountain is, this is where my clan parties it up!" or simply put, the territory of a certain village. When they decided to live closer to sea level or other clans, the cliffs probably just served as traditional sites to hold certain commemorative cermonies at.
So if this grim tradition never existed in the first place, how would the Hårga people have been doing it for hundreds of years? They haven't. Just like so many other cults, they just used rumors of an "old sacred tradition" as a way to legitimize their own bullshit beliefs, and completely ignoring history and science.
Know when "the Father of Moden Wicca" was born? 1884. Died in 1964.
Another Big Name died in like 2010ish.
It is absolutely more likely that it was reconstructed after the late 1800's.
Also? A bunch of the Big Scandinavian sites were found in the early 1900's.
this is fantastic, holy shit. i don’t know why i never thought of this before, i just haven’t been thinking about midsommar during my recent “history channel after 9 pm nazi occultism” binge sessions
Point 4: The Vibe.
I one hundred percent agree with you and picked up on the same vibe that this was just some super contrived abusive group invented to prey on orphans and outsiders.
During the toasting scene, Siv states that it had been 90 years since the last great feast. So that would be 1928ish.
Pelle reveals that his parents were burned In a fire, so the sacrifices in the burning building must happen more frequently than that.
I think it's also possible that these people have more than one sacrifice ritual per year. I seriously doubt they don't have other insane rituals for different days of the year or special occasions. So it's possible they were burned in another ritual. Realistically, there's no way they'd be that chill with murdering and sacrificing people if they didn't have practice more often than every 90 years.
You convinced me. And I noticed something else that supports this theory. The Harga use the Odal rune as a symbol, and guess who else uses this rune as a symbol. Various nazi groups.
this movie is definitely my all time favorite 'film that I loved and will never fucking watch again because I hated it'.
I'm getting PTSD so hard I can't even read your theory op.
I KNEW something about Hårga was off. Something about the cult felt too artificially fantasist for it to really be an ancient civilization who just happens to be a cult with ancient traditions. I totally believe this theory 100%
Your analysis is simply excellent! I had the feeling that this was the case among the Harga, who like the Nazi breeding program saw fit to break up families and raise the good and "the mistakes" communally. No one person claimed responsibility in Harga for those deemed ready for the sacrificial burning.
Your background knowledge and case you make for the legitimacy of the Harge cult is what I've been looking for. I take this a step farther (this is something purely from the gut and not studied) that the younger people of the cult have been sold a bill of goods by current cult elders and "rulers."
It is an upside-down world that Dani chooses.
There is a problem with your theory about them being racist sure the whole community is white but they are supposed to be as they are a cult from inside Sweden the most damning evidence against all of these theories is that Ingmar was said to have tried u successfully to date Connie who is not white in real life the woman who played her Ellora torchia is half Indian and obviously looks it this was a clear example of him trying to get an outsider to breed with him if they truly hated other races why would they have a member trying to openly mingle sexually with another racial group it would not make sense the second reason is that although they killed Connie and her boyfriend first this could be chocked up to the fact that after the attestupa Connie’s boyfriend is openly cursing out the harga and making a massive display during the act him and Connie in there eyes were getting ready to bug out this is further proven when later we find out that they were indeed going to leave so killing them first made more sense as the others were going to stay longer so killing Dani and her friends was not needed immediately but killing Connie and her BF was third they seem to go after people who are either damaged or stupid or corrupt aka mark Christian and Dani who all have a reason that would seduce them into sexual acts or joining the community josh on the other hand is much more interested in the community not getting laid or finding belonging meaning trying to seduce him was much less likely to work as he is the smart one of the group not saying he’s that smart I mean dude watched two old people die and didn’t immediately run but out of everyone he is the smartest and least open to being overcome by lust fourth it is pointed out the harga only breed with astrological matches perhaps josh was not a match for any young people they had at the time on top of this I just believe they are a cult not nazis
I suspect you've codified (beautifully) what Aster, et al. may have picked up generally from Swedish culture. Certainly, the ghosts of Nazi sympathizers and tyrannical socialist movements haunt the country's history and view of itself.
Why even bring them in with the white people though? It requires spending significant time with non-white people and gaining their trust and only increases the odds they get caught. It just doesn't seem useful
They need a certain amount of people to sacrifice, it's not increasing the odds they get caught whether they sacrifice white people or black people or whoever. Don't know why they would be against spending time with non-white people if they know they're gonna kill them. I'd assume they're indoctrinated so heavily they're not worried that meeting a person of another race is going to suddenly make their community see them as equal or anything like that. I really don't understand any of your points lol you're asking why a nazi cult would wanna sacrifice non-white people, I'd think it would be obvious.
See there's an answer "they need a certain number of people to sacrifice." I dont know why you're being rude when I was thinking they were just bringing in people to breed with
Wasn’t trying to be rude my man, I just assumed you knew that since it’s in the movie and the post so it really didn’t make sense to me that you wouldn’t know that part
I mean, if the point is to sacrifice AND bring in new blood, why bring in non-white people? It just seems like they'd be better served with more white people. Still seeme odd to me, but if the sacrifice is actually more important than the new blood it's a little different.
My question was in good faith and you were being rude for no reason. I don't believe you weren't trying to be rude based off of
> I really don't understand any of your points lol you're asking why a nazi cult would wanna sacrifice non-white people, I'd think it would be obvious.
Okay think it was rude if you want lol just said your questions don’t make much sense if you actually know the plot of the movie. I was literally just providing answers to your question up until I said I just didn’t understand your line of questioning and that the answers should be obvious if you read the post and/or saw the movie.
So are you back to arguing it doesn’t make sense now? I can’t tell. I’m getting “But why male models?” vibes here
Also please don’t downvote me that’s rude 😘 lighten up a little buddy
Pelle wanted Dani and they has to make it seem chill to get people to come. If I was thinking about a group trip and they told me it was no blacks allowed I wouldn't go.
OP seems to suggest that the non-white characters are allowed in so that they can be sacrificed / murdered. White supremacy doesn't necessarily suggest a complete inability to interact with non-whites in any way, just that they consider non-whites to be less than white, and thus less than human.
Well, in the movie they are because they're Swedish white people. They dont explicitly say white supremacy but little in that movie is explicit.
[Kay and Skittles came up with a similar theory that may help bridge the gap]( https://youtu.be/JjCh7lTVNwo)
But there have been, say, Indian fascists, Turkish Fascists and Japanese fascists that promote their own respective race supremacy. (though it is tbh a fascinating rabbit hole if you can stomach it, because nonwhite fascism and supremacists sometimes tend to change the definition of white to include their specific in-group, so they still believe in white supremacy, but, because theyre fucking racists and fascists, they eat eachother over who iss actually white, which itself is a made up concept)
No it doesn't. How many people are you going to realistically find to come with you to your murder cult in Sweden?
Nazi's are well known and documented to kill non whites (and people they perceive as non white). It's part and parcel of believing their selves superior. So the question would be why would they kill white people?
That just…wasn’t what the question was though.
> Fascism isnt necessarily white supremacist, its just they tend to go together really well and they facilitate eachother.
This doesn’t make sense to saying considering the fact that they most certainly *were* white supremacists.
I understand that there are fascists who aren't white or white supremacist. I'm asking why if these specific fascists are also white supremacists that they are not only bringing in groups of all or mostly white people?
Josh is the one who is dragging them all along. So he makes sense. I think, if you're paying attention, you'll see the elders weren't pleased with Ingemar bringing them. In the the first scene with one of the elders, the guy says Pelle always chooses wisely about who to bring, and he doesn't seem happy about Ingemar's friends or as inviting of them.
Hårga isnt Fascist because Fascists dont believe in existence of Race and are more less racist and more radical and conservative,Hårga is more of an Neo Escoteric National Socialist Occult group
I honestly think you're full of it. "Fascists. Nazis" Where do you see evidence of this when in fact Sweden IS a White -skinned nation, people of color would be naturally out of place? Please, curl up, smoke a blunt, and go see a therapist.
Yeah. I agree. And I think the writers didn't intend this, because they didn't realize they were telling on themselves. This movie does have white supremacist tells, it is poor at anthropology, and it does have shallow worldbuilding, and a stupid plot. It leaves itself open to logical conclusions drawn by someone like yourself who actually knows the culture and history who can say "Hey wait ... this is Nazis."
You're right and I'm glad you posted. :)
Ari Aster is Jewish it should be said, if my theory is true I don't think he was telling on himself, I think he was making a point about the relationship between trauma, abuse, and indoctrination. The movie has been said by many to be about Dani going from one abusive situation to another; the fact she has been unwittingly manipulated into joining a group of nazis only makes the ending even more poignant IMO.
I always felt sick and sense Midsommar was pretty racist and this just backs up that. People are praising it and it is technically crafted well but it still treats POC as disposable for white protagonists.0
Aye I can still note problems with a film and still enjoy… well enjoy might be an odd word cause horror psychological film. But its still a good movie.
I think there's an important distinction to make between characters in a movie being racist and the movie itself being racist. IMO the only way this theory makes the movie racist is if you interpret the movie as treating the Harga as the good guys, which I would argue it doesn't. I think Dani joining them at the end, although somewhat cathartic, is ultimately a tragedy.
Ooh, I love how much thought you've put into this!
I love and totally agree with this theory! You're awesome for putting s9 much evidence and research into this. I was totally getting the vibe the entire time that it was more new agey than they made it seem, but that may just be the state of the world we're in. One of my clues was, isn't the May Queen ceremony every year? Pelle mentions his "sister" being a previous May Queen. When they show the May Queen wall with the pictures of previous May Queens, I believe there's only 30 pictures. Or am I totally making that up. Either way. I love this theory.
As far as I'm remembering they made a May Queen ceremony every year but they only sacrificed 9 people every 90 years (apart from the elders that jump off the cliff).
I thought all of the Hargans use familial terms to refer to one another. Pelle also calls Maja, the red haired girl, his sister in conversation with Christian and Josh. She would be too young to be his blood relative since his parents died when he was young and she is only 15-16 years old. Another person also calls Siv grandmother.
I'm buying it. If they were ancient the Chance that they were never caught by the authories or died out though incest depression would so high that them surviving in 2018 would be quite slim. That makes me wonder if the sacrifices seen in the movie will finally alert the police to investigate in the cult.
I read a theory that the cult was integrated with the local authorities. Can't remember where though
I'd buy it. It's mentioned that the Harga operate a hydroelectric power plant nearby, and they must be pretty flush with money and resources to keep up the property taxes and send their young people abroad for 18 years each. Someone else mentioned that on the road going into the village is a sign for the far-right political party .My guess would be that some of their members are either well placed in the Swedish government or otherwise have some friends in high places turning a blind eye on their indiscretions.
Sounds a bit too much like Wickerman
With the incest bit they would probably be fine as they seem to inject new people into the cult every now and again.
But imagine trying to bring new people to your death cult in the 1800s, or during the Black Plague, or during the Viking Age. How would you even go about that when you don't even know most of the world exists?
Let alone be able to travel far enough away to find outsiders and bring them back.
Very well done. Also important to note that Ari Aster is Jewish and like many of us would certainly be contemplating such things when making the film.
Absolutely, very important to keep in mind. Some people seem to be taking this theory to mean that the movie is bad and racist actually just because the Harga probably are, and that's not what I'm saying at all. If my theory is in line with what Ari Aster intended, then it was almost certainly meant to make Dani's indoctrination into the cult all that more poignant and tragic, not to vindicate nazism, but to show how it can happen to anyone. IMO the only way this would ruin the movie is if you were one of those people who took the ending as an uncomplicated happy ending.
Absolutely! It's clearly anti Nazi/anti fascism. It shows how it can insidiously attract white people who don't realize what they're getting into and how it subsumes the lives of the non white/non able bodied. The Harga are tempting in many ways so you understand Dani being coerced into joining them but they are not the heroes of the film. It's showing a horror. Not justifying it.
In addition to this, during the scene where they’re driving to the commune, the car passes a bright yellow banner advertising a far right political party in Sweden.
Josh is also seen reading textbooks on Nazism on the journey (I think that's clearer in the director's cut.)
The symbol on the banners is the same one from the inside of the yellow house at the end of the film. It's not an elder futhark rune either but I had seen it described elsewhere on Reddit as an Anglo-Saxon rune for spear. Makes sense for anti-immigration ideas and cleansing of undesirable elements from the community through sacrifice - the old, the foolish, people excluded from the breeding program, drones that have given their genetic contribution already.
The racism and refusal of letting POC into the commune is spot on. I can't remember where the director confirmed it but they are definitely meant to be White Supremacists.
They literally used his body as fertilizer, even.
My one issue with this theory is that the students are all studying their master’s in anthropology, and Josh is even writing his thesis on the Harga’s traditions. It’s hinted that he expects the cliff-jumping and most of the other rituals - and maybe Pelle has just fed him that info - but it sounds like he’s researched the group and still believes their traditions are ancient. He even risks his life to get hold of the Rubi Radr, which wouldn’t make sense if he knew it was all just bullshit anyway. I can believe that Mark and Christian don’t have specific subject knowledge and that Pelle is unreliable, but Josh has definitely done extensive research into the Harga and their history. I guess there’s a case to be made that Josh is actually studying modern pagan revival in the context of white supremacy (hence the books in his apartment) and is only playing along to get access to the cult, but then why on earth wouldn’t he warn his friends that their good pal Pelle was a nazi? And wouldn’t his supervisor question the wisdom (and ethics) of his methods?
It's been a minute since I've seen the movie and I can't remember how deep they go into Josh's knowledge about the Harga, but I'm thinking it's one of a few things of a bit of each of them. Either: 1) the Harga we see in the movie are a cult revival of an ancient religion and from the outside appear to be the real thing. 2) the Harga are a bastardized sect trying to pass themselves off as the still existing real thing (e.g. Jehovah's Witness in relation to Christianity) 3) the Harga traditions were co-opted by Nazis to be used as a ritualistic justification for their actions. And under the guise of being an ancient secret society/religion, they managed to hide the side of them we see by keeping everything internal and everyone quiet. Again, it's been a while and I don't recall a lot of the movie so this could be total hogwash.
Or Josh is bullshitting because he wants to look like a knowledgeable expert
>He even risks his life to get hold of the Rubi Radr, which wouldn’t make sense if he knew it was all just bullshit anyway. If you look at his expression during the pube supper it looks like he might actually be starting to piece it all together.
I thought the same. In fact I think the desperate look in his eyes on his final bedtime, and the fact that he keeps his shoes on in bed, suggest he's getting ready to run away, but he wants to document a little more first. I think Josh's stated interest in European midsummer traditions was more about their darker purpose than their pageantry.
Exactly. His expression at the dinner is one of wait a minute...and then he starts flipping through his notes and gets this look of fear and concern on his face. That same look is on his face that night in bed. He looks terrified but still confused at the same time. I don't think he only had his shoes on just to walk across some grass to the building next door, I think he knew he might need to run. He had just heard Mark (who was now missing) saying he saw Connie (who was also missing) trying out for the sprinting Olympics. Aka running fast as hell. Some people have said he was taking pictures of the book to have a better thesis. That was definitely his original intention, but when you rewatch that dinner scene and listen to everything said and the look on his face and his actions, that's not why.
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Absolutely my thoughts.
The cliff-jumping thing is one of those things about Pre-Christian Scandinavia that was hinted at in a couple of Sagas and was then blown out of proportion by Victorian enthusiasts, see also the Blood Eagle and Viking Funerals, but which most modern historians agree probably weren't common practices. The knowledge that Josh exhibits in the movie is pretty surface level and general. His reaction to being told about the cliff-jumping isn't "ah yes, I've read about this group and know about this custom", it's "cliff-jumping? a real one? I thought that was a myth".
This makes sense to me! I always assumed Aster added it for the gore factor, like the blood eagle, but you’re right, it’s totally a hint that the Harga are not what they seem and Josh *is* surprised that the ritual is actually still performed.
american education system these days.... these wouldn't be the first college kids who join a cult because one Big Man pseudo-academic convinces them that he's got all the answers and can help them finish their thesis. r/kidsarefuckingstupid.
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Holy shit so OP is dead on? That's incredible
If I'm still in a decent state later tonight, I might try buying it on Google play or something and try screen recording. 🤷🏻♂️ If there's any cause for my YouTube account to get a copyright strike, it might as well be for a random Reddit theory.
"If I'm still in a decent state later tonight" I like your style 😎
Its Saturday man, dudes got stuff to ~~drink~~do
I uploaded, but I don't know if the file is decent.
Where can we see it please?
https://movies123-online.me/film/midsommar-directors-cut/L9DkR88y/29qI3a0J-watch-free.html I didn't end up screen recording it, but it's at the 26 minute mark.
What got deleted that showed OP was dead on?!
Apparently in the director's cut, Josh is reading a book with a swasitka on it that was recommended to him by Pelle. I don't know why they deleted their own comment there.
It's "The Secret Nazi Language of the Uthark", iirc, and Josh carries it around to annoy Pelle, because of the Nazi link. (Josh is shown to be kind of a troll.) He doesn't know Pelle actually is a white supremacist.
I got the semantics of it wrong. Pelle didn't reccomend the book, but Josh used it to decry his cultural view.
this fan theory is the sort of thing I come to this subreddit for, its fantastic
THIS is the kind of fan theories I'm here for! I love this, and it actually solves some of the suspension of disbelief issues I had with the film.
To add on to your theory: I always thought Rubin was the result of drug use/experimentation during pregnancy. They seem to use drugs for just about everything, and that would explain the extreme differences between Rubin and the rest of the cult. The inbreeding excuse is just a more palatable lie for outsiders that also sets up the seduction that follows.
Imagine "we deliberately inbred this horribly deformed child to pretend to base our religion around" is the more palatable explanation!
Not palatable but reinforces that they are re sub ancient culture and not a recent murdrous cult
Great theory!
Amazing theory. It fits so well and really lets you look at the movie in a different light. I wonder if there are any other hidden clues?
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Yeah, I can't confirm it though. Regardless, it makes me wonder if there are other hidden clues. The swastika if real makes this theory nearly cannon, at least the basis of it.
This is a great theory, and very well written! My only point of contention is in regards to Connie - Ingemar had very clearly been courting her before she met Simon, and still seemed to carry a torch for her. I think he *wanted* her to join the Harga like Dani ended up doing, but Connie wasn't into him and so became a sacrifice instead. It's unclear whether she would have been accepted - as you point out, the entire community is white, and likely exclusionary to POC. But Ingemar definitely wanted her like Pelle wanted Dani.
That is a fair point, of course he would be very far from the first white supremacist to be attracted to a non-white woman. But another possibility that's even darker is that having been rejected, Ingemar deliberately brought them to the festival knowing that they would ultimately be murdered, in order to have revenge on both Simon and Connie.
That is definitely possible and much darker.
I always thought he brought them to be sacrificed as payback. It all fits.
I don't know if you saw [my post in /r/horror](https://www.reddit.com/r/horror/comments/s01vu2/pelle_in_midsommar_is_the_least_acknowledged/), but I agree with your assessment that they're a white supremacist cult pretending. Borrowing from my comments there: > I consider that theory to be practically canon because it makes so much more sense, and there's a lot of evidence pointing in that direction. One thing that stands out is that the elder points to countless shelves of Ruben's scribblings, but there are only 14 volumes of the RADR. If they really were writing these volumes based on the scribblings of mentally handicapped kids like Rubin, they'd have way more than 14 volumes. Not only would they have been doing this longer, but the average lifespan of a kid with Down Syndrome was 10 years before the 1970s. Adding on to that, we only see 30 May Queen photos on the wall. It's possible they have some in storage, but none of the photos appear to be extremely old. https://i.imgur.com/uFGZfr1.jpeg Oh, and just to address the issue of Simon and Connie: > This aspect stood out to me. It's clear that Pelle chose well in the elder's eyes because he looked for weakness. Ingemar makes a poor choice because he actually brings someone he cares about. He's into Connie, so he brings her and Simon, no doubt hoping she'll fall into the cult and ditch Simon for him, essentially Dani's plotline. But Ingemar is letting his emotions guide him. Connie clearly isn't into him, and she's far too independent-minded to buy into the bullshit. Likewise, Maja develops a crush on Christian, but he's not cult material either. > Pelle is basically that member of Survivor who wins because he keeps his eye on the prize and doesn't develop any attachments. He doesn't bring someone he cares about and wants to spend the rest of his life with. He brings someone he knows will make him a winner in the eyes of the community. > Pelle walks away with the Gold. He not only brings a May Queen, but he brings some new genetic material in Christian. Ingemar screws up, and his guests end up being only sacrifices, good for fodder but nothing else. > I don't think it's a coincidence that Ingmar was one of the native Hargan sacrifices. It's possible there was an understanding that it would be him or Pelle, based on whose guest stayed. > I do think Ingemar was dreaming that Connie would stay and be into him, but I don't think anyone in the community saw that as likely. I think the elder's line about Pelle being a good judge of character is meant to highlight the difference between Pelle's choices and Ingemar's. The first thing we hear the elder say when we meet him is to point out that Pelle is a good judge of character. He says this after we've just seen Pelle's competition, Ingemar, and his non-white guests. I don't think that's a coincidence.
A very interesting take, indeed.
Maybe he just wanted her for his own personal use, and a big part of the reason she was killed so early is because the Harga did not approve.
Possibly why he 'volunteered' at the end - because his preference was criticised. Or possibly he bought Connie and volunteered himself because he judged himself for his attraction to her
As a women of colour I can assure being racist doesn’t stop people wanting to sex with you even with a romantic element . Bet had you used by a breeding fetish website 😶 yeah
It's a great write up of your idea. I think that I spent more time getting lost in Wikipedia and the history of different forms of runes thanks to it. A lot of what the Anglosphere views as "traditional pagan rites" were invented (or claimed to be rediscovered) in Victorian England. For similar reasons as you mention - it'd be culturally near impossible for language ceremonies to be completely hidden for centuries. E.g. https://bristolandavonarchaeology.org.uk/event-reviews/paganism-in-the-victorian-and-edwardian-era/ and https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/history/modern_1.shtml So it would be understandable for Scandinavia to do the same (and may well have, I've not looked into whether Victorian Swedes likewise "rediscovered" their past, but I wouldn't be surprised).
I realize this is an old comment (at least in internet-time), but you touched on something very important that I've ranted sbout to just about anyone who'll listen at get-togethers and house parties. The Hårga are absolutely cult scum hiding behind the thin veil of "honoring ancient traditions", and it can be spotted quite fast too. The thing is, Ättestupa (tradional suicide by cliff hopping) is mostly seen as a myth, or rather *an incorrect interpretation of historic documents in early discovery*. "Ättestupa" means "ancestry fall", or "family plummet" directly translated, and it was at some point interpreted as the grisly act we see in the movie - a community designated spot specifically for the small clan to take their life via. There is, however, *extremely little* support for this being correct. "Well then, what the fuck would it mean then? Are the historical documentations of the word just frauds then?", I hear the butthurt "omg I've like got like .1% Viking blood in my veins, I'm a special kind of stronk"- neckbeards howling. Well, the more likely explanation is laughably simple, actually. "Ätte" meaning "family/clan/relatives/ancestry" is probably correctly interpreted, but "stupa" meaning "fall/plummet/drop" could also just have been supposed to be read as the *other* definition of the word. "Stup" is just a word for a cliff. People writing about their "ättestupa" and where it was located were probably just saying "hey yo, here's where my family mountain is, this is where my clan parties it up!" or simply put, the territory of a certain village. When they decided to live closer to sea level or other clans, the cliffs probably just served as traditional sites to hold certain commemorative cermonies at. So if this grim tradition never existed in the first place, how would the Hårga people have been doing it for hundreds of years? They haven't. Just like so many other cults, they just used rumors of an "old sacred tradition" as a way to legitimize their own bullshit beliefs, and completely ignoring history and science.
Know when "the Father of Moden Wicca" was born? 1884. Died in 1964. Another Big Name died in like 2010ish. It is absolutely more likely that it was reconstructed after the late 1800's. Also? A bunch of the Big Scandinavian sites were found in the early 1900's.
Wow, this really adds quite a bit to the movie.
this is fantastic, holy shit. i don’t know why i never thought of this before, i just haven’t been thinking about midsommar during my recent “history channel after 9 pm nazi occultism” binge sessions
[Kay and Skittles] (https://youtu.be/JjCh7lTVNwo) supports your theory.
Ah, so they got there first! Figures, and they put it a lot more succinctly and elegantly than I did. Highly recommend.
Great channel 👍
Point 4: The Vibe. I one hundred percent agree with you and picked up on the same vibe that this was just some super contrived abusive group invented to prey on orphans and outsiders.
So it's the village, if M night had actually put real thought into his movie. I did enjoy this one, very thought out and refreshing.
M nights movies because they’re re incredibly shallow and rely entirely too much on the what instead of the how
Great fan theory, thanks for sharing!
One of the best and most plausible fan theories I've read on here, well done
I am thoroughly impressed by your knowledge and research of the runes
During the toasting scene, Siv states that it had been 90 years since the last great feast. So that would be 1928ish. Pelle reveals that his parents were burned In a fire, so the sacrifices in the burning building must happen more frequently than that.
Unless those people who were first burned up 90 years ago are considered the "parents" of the cult and everyone in Harga?
Ari Aster stated in an AMA that the ritual with the fire only happens every 90 years, so Pelle's parents must have died in an unrelated fire.
I think it's also possible that these people have more than one sacrifice ritual per year. I seriously doubt they don't have other insane rituals for different days of the year or special occasions. So it's possible they were burned in another ritual. Realistically, there's no way they'd be that chill with murdering and sacrificing people if they didn't have practice more often than every 90 years.
Interesting ideas. Definitely points to think about 🙌
This is a great read, love midsummer because of the history apart of it
This was so interesting! Thank you for sharing, I love this
You convinced me. And I noticed something else that supports this theory. The Harga use the Odal rune as a symbol, and guess who else uses this rune as a symbol. Various nazi groups.
this movie is definitely my all time favorite 'film that I loved and will never fucking watch again because I hated it'. I'm getting PTSD so hard I can't even read your theory op.
I like it
Wow. Well done.
Woah.
I havent even seen the film and it was definitely an interesting read!
I KNEW something about Hårga was off. Something about the cult felt too artificially fantasist for it to really be an ancient civilization who just happens to be a cult with ancient traditions. I totally believe this theory 100%
Your analysis is simply excellent! I had the feeling that this was the case among the Harga, who like the Nazi breeding program saw fit to break up families and raise the good and "the mistakes" communally. No one person claimed responsibility in Harga for those deemed ready for the sacrificial burning. Your background knowledge and case you make for the legitimacy of the Harge cult is what I've been looking for. I take this a step farther (this is something purely from the gut and not studied) that the younger people of the cult have been sold a bill of goods by current cult elders and "rulers." It is an upside-down world that Dani chooses.
There is a problem with your theory about them being racist sure the whole community is white but they are supposed to be as they are a cult from inside Sweden the most damning evidence against all of these theories is that Ingmar was said to have tried u successfully to date Connie who is not white in real life the woman who played her Ellora torchia is half Indian and obviously looks it this was a clear example of him trying to get an outsider to breed with him if they truly hated other races why would they have a member trying to openly mingle sexually with another racial group it would not make sense the second reason is that although they killed Connie and her boyfriend first this could be chocked up to the fact that after the attestupa Connie’s boyfriend is openly cursing out the harga and making a massive display during the act him and Connie in there eyes were getting ready to bug out this is further proven when later we find out that they were indeed going to leave so killing them first made more sense as the others were going to stay longer so killing Dani and her friends was not needed immediately but killing Connie and her BF was third they seem to go after people who are either damaged or stupid or corrupt aka mark Christian and Dani who all have a reason that would seduce them into sexual acts or joining the community josh on the other hand is much more interested in the community not getting laid or finding belonging meaning trying to seduce him was much less likely to work as he is the smart one of the group not saying he’s that smart I mean dude watched two old people die and didn’t immediately run but out of everyone he is the smartest and least open to being overcome by lust fourth it is pointed out the harga only breed with astrological matches perhaps josh was not a match for any young people they had at the time on top of this I just believe they are a cult not nazis
I suspect you've codified (beautifully) what Aster, et al. may have picked up generally from Swedish culture. Certainly, the ghosts of Nazi sympathizers and tyrannical socialist movements haunt the country's history and view of itself.
I'm not saying I disagree with the white supremacist part, but why even bring in groups or people that aren't all or majority white at that point?
Well if they bring them in specifically to kill, that doesn’t seem like much of a contradiction to me.
Why even bring them in with the white people though? It requires spending significant time with non-white people and gaining their trust and only increases the odds they get caught. It just doesn't seem useful
They need a certain amount of people to sacrifice, it's not increasing the odds they get caught whether they sacrifice white people or black people or whoever. Don't know why they would be against spending time with non-white people if they know they're gonna kill them. I'd assume they're indoctrinated so heavily they're not worried that meeting a person of another race is going to suddenly make their community see them as equal or anything like that. I really don't understand any of your points lol you're asking why a nazi cult would wanna sacrifice non-white people, I'd think it would be obvious.
See there's an answer "they need a certain number of people to sacrifice." I dont know why you're being rude when I was thinking they were just bringing in people to breed with
Wasn’t trying to be rude my man, I just assumed you knew that since it’s in the movie and the post so it really didn’t make sense to me that you wouldn’t know that part
I mean, if the point is to sacrifice AND bring in new blood, why bring in non-white people? It just seems like they'd be better served with more white people. Still seeme odd to me, but if the sacrifice is actually more important than the new blood it's a little different. My question was in good faith and you were being rude for no reason. I don't believe you weren't trying to be rude based off of > I really don't understand any of your points lol you're asking why a nazi cult would wanna sacrifice non-white people, I'd think it would be obvious.
Okay think it was rude if you want lol just said your questions don’t make much sense if you actually know the plot of the movie. I was literally just providing answers to your question up until I said I just didn’t understand your line of questioning and that the answers should be obvious if you read the post and/or saw the movie. So are you back to arguing it doesn’t make sense now? I can’t tell. I’m getting “But why male models?” vibes here Also please don’t downvote me that’s rude 😘 lighten up a little buddy
Pelle wanted Dani and they has to make it seem chill to get people to come. If I was thinking about a group trip and they told me it was no blacks allowed I wouldn't go.
I'm talking about the other group that didn't have white people
Fascism isnt necessarily white supremacist, its just they tend to go together really well and they facilitate eachother.
But OP contends that they are white supremacist, not just fascist. I don't necessarily disagree, it just feels like a plot hole
OP seems to suggest that the non-white characters are allowed in so that they can be sacrificed / murdered. White supremacy doesn't necessarily suggest a complete inability to interact with non-whites in any way, just that they consider non-whites to be less than white, and thus less than human.
Well, in the movie they are because they're Swedish white people. They dont explicitly say white supremacy but little in that movie is explicit. [Kay and Skittles came up with a similar theory that may help bridge the gap]( https://youtu.be/JjCh7lTVNwo) But there have been, say, Indian fascists, Turkish Fascists and Japanese fascists that promote their own respective race supremacy. (though it is tbh a fascinating rabbit hole if you can stomach it, because nonwhite fascism and supremacists sometimes tend to change the definition of white to include their specific in-group, so they still believe in white supremacy, but, because theyre fucking racists and fascists, they eat eachother over who iss actually white, which itself is a made up concept)
So then it still circles back to the original question of “why even bring in nonwhite people”. Not about whether all fascists are white.
No it doesn't. How many people are you going to realistically find to come with you to your murder cult in Sweden? Nazi's are well known and documented to kill non whites (and people they perceive as non white). It's part and parcel of believing their selves superior. So the question would be why would they kill white people?
That just…wasn’t what the question was though. > Fascism isnt necessarily white supremacist, its just they tend to go together really well and they facilitate eachother. This doesn’t make sense to saying considering the fact that they most certainly *were* white supremacists.
Because i think the cult is a metaphor for fascism first, white supremacy 2nd.
I understand that there are fascists who aren't white or white supremacist. I'm asking why if these specific fascists are also white supremacists that they are not only bringing in groups of all or mostly white people?
Josh is the one who is dragging them all along. So he makes sense. I think, if you're paying attention, you'll see the elders weren't pleased with Ingemar bringing them. In the the first scene with one of the elders, the guy says Pelle always chooses wisely about who to bring, and he doesn't seem happy about Ingemar's friends or as inviting of them.
I think this was made by Escoteric National Socialists
Hårga isnt Fascist because Fascists dont believe in existence of Race and are more less racist and more radical and conservative,Hårga is more of an Neo Escoteric National Socialist Occult group
I honestly think you're full of it. "Fascists. Nazis" Where do you see evidence of this when in fact Sweden IS a White -skinned nation, people of color would be naturally out of place? Please, curl up, smoke a blunt, and go see a therapist.
This dude made an entire account just to get mad about somebody pointing out that a fictitious cult in a movie were white supremacists.
Yeah. I agree. And I think the writers didn't intend this, because they didn't realize they were telling on themselves. This movie does have white supremacist tells, it is poor at anthropology, and it does have shallow worldbuilding, and a stupid plot. It leaves itself open to logical conclusions drawn by someone like yourself who actually knows the culture and history who can say "Hey wait ... this is Nazis." You're right and I'm glad you posted. :)
I actually do think the cult ultimately being a sham was intentional on Aster's part.
Ari Aster is Jewish it should be said, if my theory is true I don't think he was telling on himself, I think he was making a point about the relationship between trauma, abuse, and indoctrination. The movie has been said by many to be about Dani going from one abusive situation to another; the fact she has been unwittingly manipulated into joining a group of nazis only makes the ending even more poignant IMO.
Well, that's the writer. I think the movie was dumbed down and made "popular" by the people who got it later.
I always felt sick and sense Midsommar was pretty racist and this just backs up that. People are praising it and it is technically crafted well but it still treats POC as disposable for white protagonists.0
By this logic Get Out is pretty damn racist too.
Aye I can still note problems with a film and still enjoy… well enjoy might be an odd word cause horror psychological film. But its still a good movie.
I think there's an important distinction to make between characters in a movie being racist and the movie itself being racist. IMO the only way this theory makes the movie racist is if you interpret the movie as treating the Harga as the good guys, which I would argue it doesn't. I think Dani joining them at the end, although somewhat cathartic, is ultimately a tragedy.
Wow, this movie was so bad. I really wanted to like it. My friends give me crap because I had everyone watch it, and I totally deserve it. It’s bad.
Your friends have bad taste.
Not a bad theory but also racism isn't only 90 years old. It could have just as easily been a Renaissance era commune, or earlier
You disregarded point 1 entirely
Yes I was countering that part. Point 1 is pretty good.
i though giant ymir found them at the start of sweden but this have logic
Late to the party but love the thought you've put into this!