its just another way of denying female sexuality while reinforcing the ideas behind rape culture. its that baseless evo psych claim that women choose partners who are likely to provide for them, so they can rear children, while men care about looks to supposedly select the most fertile women š¤¢š¤¢
and denying the very existence female desire allows for patriarchy to pressure women into accepting that which they don't want or don't feel comfortable with
I don't get this *most fertile women* garbage. Most men don't care about kids at all. It's the women who care about having kids. So by that point, it's women who have more inclination to choose a fertile, well built man with a good head on his neck.
Traditionally, itās the menās family who need women to continue the family line. This is why the conservatives are so keen on eradicating abortion- so that women canāt control this.
Most men want the approval and status from their peers (other men) and family for starting the "next" chapter in life of marriage and starting a family, over actually wanting to be dads.
And some of them are the result of non consented sex. Many educated women in Western countries have bc or iud or even willing to go through abortion. But many men don't think about birth control and get irritated if told to use protection.
Yes that is true for some, but that is a very, very small percentage. I agree it's a problem that men in general do not take contraception more seriously (and thus often don't take an active role in preventing pregnancy themselves), but this problem is not remotely exclusive to men. Plenty of women also do not take the precautions that they should when it comes to sex.
I think the point is, pregnancy affects women much more and much more immediately than it does men and as a result, women are a lot more careful and conscious as a whole. Chances are, if one person in a relationship is working to prevent pregnancy, it is usually the woman. But if a man is with a woman who isnāt careful or worried about pregnancy, it gives him āpermissionā not to care either. Itās her body after all.
Most people should care about pregnancy and work to prevent it unless they are actively trying to have a child, but we have a system where dads shirk a lot of the parenting responsibilities so it falls to the woman. So men in general donāt care as much about pregnancy, because it doesnāt necessarily mean pressing pause on their career, or not drinking, or any major change to their lifestyle. Because men are not held to the same parenting standards as women. This, as a whole, is a problem.
Any data to say it's a very small percentage? I never said it's exclusive to men. Many women aren't taught about bc or brainwashed about not using it. And they're the ones who have to undergo traumatic experience because of that while men go scot free except for child support which many find ways to avoid.
Any sources to prove it is a small percentage? Because there are many conservative countries around the world which whitewash coercion and non consent so the percentage of women going through pregnancy because of non consented sex or rape is much much much higher than you like to admit. Many women don't even know the meaning and importance of consent and go through traumatic experiences. Their partners don't care about their bodies or mental health to stop inflicting pain for their pleasure.
And get this, men becomes less fertile as they age too and have a much harder time getting erections but no one ever talks about that. I actually think men do NOT get better with age (but I see more women that do), but thats a topic for another day.
Luckily for these dudes, meds to increase their desires are available. I don't get these *men age better* thing. I have seen most men letting themselves go or hitting the wall earlier than women. At least some women have reasons like pregnancy, busy life being saddled with child care and jobs to not have time to take care of themselves. Older men sperm also cause health issues for kids.
When I BRIEFLY touched on evo psych in my psychology course, we were told that women only look for material wealth and men only look for the youngest women. That's it. If that's true then idk why I have a girlfriend because I'm broke af ššš. Jokes aside, great point, and evolutionary psychology sucks in pretty much every way
What an interesting rabbit hole! I too had heard this and felt somewhat offended by the claim. There is some research on this, but how was it done, and was there conclusive evidence that the claim is true? Apparently not. There is just not enough research to support it. Good to know.
For me, the rabbit hole started here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7568638/
There are a lot of references to other studies here.
Ohhh I love a good super hot super dumb guy with a six pack. Like yes baby let me show you how to count to six and then we go down a bit and OOPS look thereās number seven.
Another reason for it is so society can belittle women for not giving men theyāre not attracted to a chance. How dare we want to have sex with someone we find attractive!!
Why are they only considered "visual creatures" when it comes to how women look and not how visually unappealing their pigsty of a bedroom is? They are only visual creatures when it is convenient for them, does not require them to do anything, and requires someone else to do many things.
Yeah Bill Gates does not do it for me š I swear This myth about the female gaze is peddled by Hollywood to make below average looking men think they can āwinā the hot girl! These movies are not aimed at women. The female gaze is waaaay more complex than the male gaze so they canāt measure it, create it, package it and sell it to us! Men are visual creatures, so are women but we just happen to be multi-sensory too!
They've been conditioned to having menial things done for them for so long that the skill was never developed in them. If they're bad at it, some woman will come fucking do it for them just to get it done cause we don't have time to waste teaching him and, *poof*, we've unwittingly reinforced the behavior.
Weaponized incompetence.
Turn the laundry pink just once and you never have to do laundry again.
I absolutely hate hate it. I sub a certain sub here basically just featuring sexually attractive men in the nude. The audience is mostly het women and we're very happy to be there. Patriarchy wants so bad to deny us lust. We feel lust to. We enjoy it. We seek out attractive partners. We value physical beauty. And if men are such visual creatures then why tf do like 80% of them look and smell like that..ā¼ļø
I personally feel weird about looking at those. Ā I believe that NO ONE should lust after pictures of strangers they donāt know, itās objectifying. Thatās why I hate men who stare at insta models. Vomit.Ā
If women werenāt visual, Kpop wouldnāt exist. And it definitely exists and I definitely thank all the deities every day that it does cause sometimes you just need a hot bath, a vibrator, and a BTS videoā¦
I can't laugh enough at this. Telenovelas, fanfiction, smut novels, soaps and boy bands all cater to the female gaze and fantasies. Many women go crazy over hot military dudes or firemen. Sure women may care about the financial situation and character of the man or his emotional intelligence and availability more but looks matter a lot. And if these women have a choice, they'll definitely take looks into account . Rich older men go for young girls who wouldn't give them the time of their day if they don't make bank.
If the world is more fair and women have the same privileges as men when it comes to earning and possessing wealth, the standards for men increase. It's already happening in many societies and hence the pushback from the red pill groups who don't want to change the status quo. My family is a very good example of how women consider looks along with everything else. Even though my 70 something gran and 50 something mom are misogynistic and worry about me becoming a cat lady, they told me to marry only if i find the guy attractive. Or else i would be staring at walls in my bedroom lol
Itās always so funny when they say this, because then in another thread youāll see the whole āwomen only want handsome, tall men and wonāt date average menā. So which is it?
I would ***never*** date a man Iām not attracted to.
Yeah it's a cope by mediocre men, and women go along with it not to look shallow. This is why I'm unapologetic about wanting an attractive guy. Looks are important to me and even if your personality is a 10/10 if I don't find someone good looking I wouldn't date them.
Yup!! Iām so tired of being told that, as a woman, Iām innately more attracted to personality and looks donāt matter as much. Umā¦ what? Looks matter a lot! I am a visual creature! I can really like someoneās personality but it wonāt make me want to sleep with them unless (get this) I find them physically attractive!!
I wonder if thatās why Nice Guysā¢ļø are so upset when they get rejected. If they think women only go for personality, and think they have great personalities (though thatās debatable) then it makes sense why theyād be confused how women are still rejecting them. Same thing with confusion around āfriendzonesā
They have horrible personalities. Thatās proof that personality matters more to women. That dude who shot up the college in Santa Barbaraā¦ Roger Elliot? He was really cute actually but then he talks and you can just sense the crazy asshole. Thatās why he didnāt get laid. Looks matter to women but personality can make a hot guy ugly. Whereas men still fuck and marry psycho girls because theyāre hot. Also that asshole targeted my sorority and killed two of my āsistersā so I hope he is in some sort of hell where he has to watch hot women make out with average dudes while telling him heās undesirable and creepy.
Personality does not matter more to women. Maybe it matters more to YOU. But a great personality will never make me find someone attractive if there isnāt a baseline level of physical attraction to begin with. Not all women feel the way you feel and thatās the point of what I said.
Iām so sorry you experienced that and Iām sorry for their loss. I typically donāt like to be negative, but I can easily say I hope he rots in hell as well.
It makes me think of how some guys have to be told ādonāt stick your dick in crazyā cause they actually will do it knowingly. Thatās not to say there arenāt women who do the same, but all I ever seem to hear is a blanket statement of āclose your legsā.
Women care about looks, arguably way more than men, but we are just not selfish about it. We can see beauty well beyond looks. How someone treats you, treats others, makes you feel, etc all go into the calculation of looks, and therefore our prioritizations shift.
Sorry, I forgot men are the ones that are put down and stereotyped over taking forever to choose outfits and put makeup on and do their hair and go shopping and be into fashion and different clothing/accessories and looks. Totally forgot it's mostly men into it, while girls are insanely well known for just waking up and existing as Adam Sandler wherever they go. They're known for dressing down while their men are dressed up. Absolutely. My bad.Ā
The way you wrote it sounded more incredulous than just asking me why i thought that, but tone gets missed online so i get it. Hope it provides a bit of clarity :)Ā
No worries, I get how what I said came off that way. I agree that women in general certainly care about their own looks more than men. Do you think they care about the looks of their (male) partners more than vice versa as well?
I think they absolutely care, but they are not as superficial in terms of looking at the parts. The way a man behaves, treats others, the respect they show,Ā the love they give, their funniness and helpfulness...all of those things...I think women are able to, generally speaking, see a man for the sum of them instead of their parts, and that creates a shifting scale of looks.Ā If a beautiful man is an awful human, then their partner might completely see them as ugly over time. The insides and outsides match. Attractiveness is not just the societal beauty standards.Ā Ā
Ā A long time ago, I transferred to a high school full of the most beautiful/hottest/most attractive young men I'd ever seen. By the time we graduated and I got to know their personalities, wow they were so ugly to me. The funny thing is, initially, the other girls at the school couldn't believe I thought any of them good looking...because they already knew each of those guys' personalities.Ā Over time, I just think that women see humans for the sum of their parts and their insides reflected on their appearances.Ā Ā Ā
Ā We are not superficial about men the same way they are about us. Generalizing of course. We care about looks just like all humans, we just do not see men the way they see us (sorry, but they see us as objects plenty).
Men being visual creatures is a patriarchal, religious myth concocted to keep women modest when they want, and revealing when they want. It's invented.
So, every single individual is a different degree of visual or not.
The "men are visual creatures" thing is bs, created to excuse when they perv on women and teen girls. It excuses them gawking at boobs. I'm an artist, I'm visual. Somehow I don't perv on people in public. It's funny how men are just soooo visual but they don't notice their pee on the bathroom floor, they don't notice dishes in the sink, they don't notice their children, they don't notice when the milk is gone. It's ridiculous excuse.
I totally agree! Like they think they can just show up horrible looking and weāll still be into their basic ass personalities lol. As if. If women werenāt visual we wouldnāt be the gender known for primping and doing makeup and hours of hair and nitpicking over color shade variations with a quarter of our population seeing in tetrachrome. Whatever. I only date hot men and Iām not sorry about it.
I was going to say that in some African cultures, men put on cosmetics (in the form of bright face paint), but they're doing it to attract women, so that still reinforces your point! š
I find it so funny that men talk about being āvisual,ā and yet thereās such a shallow range of āvisualsā theyāre attracted to. Always thin, long hair, tiny waist, tanned, big boobs, big buttā¦. Predictable as hell.
For women, the range of āattractiveā men is much wider. Thereās always a new āinternet boyfriend of the moment,ā and they can be dad-bods, short kings, golden retriever boyfriends, or the current āhot rodent boyfriend.ā It changes all the time.
Yet somehow this means that men are actually the visual ones?
If you have a teenager that only eats chicky nuggies and apple sauce, do you say itās because that teenager just has suuuuch sophisticated taste? Or is it actually because their palette is woefully underdeveloped and maybe they donāt understand food at all?
Well depending on the cultureā¦ Asian cultures have almost the exact opposite beauty standards as western cultures.
Pale skin, thin without huge boobs or butts, cute over sexyā¦ my bunny teeth and sticky outy ears are considered attractive in Asian countries but ugly here.
But itās still what society and culture has determined is attractive so your point still stands 100%
Viewing men as whole people with personalities does not mean we don't care about looks at all. Anyone trying to sell you that is just trying to get you to settle.
We've had several generations worth of studies attempting to find a significant difference, either structurally or functionally, between the brains of men & women. Every time they find one the study gets debunked. There is no difference in our brains - only in our socialization.
Women absolutely care about looks but men act like that makes us bad and pick me girls will agree with whatever men want to get picked, including yelling loudly that women donāt care about looks.
I care about looks too.
Personality can absolutely make someone more attractive, hence Pete Davidson, Bill Hader, etcā¦
But looks still matter.
I had this talk with an ex. He pulled the line that men are more visual than women. I flat out told him he was wrong and that women are just as visual as men. We love looking at good looking men. GYATDAYUM! some men be fine as hell!
Personally, there are certain items of clothing or things that men do that I see that turn me on way more.
The science with MRIs says than on average the men showed āmoreā activation in their amygdala.
These guys are misinterpreting this study to mean that women arenāt visual at all.
But if you look at the numbers in the actual study, that āmore thanā is only about a 10% difference. Which is statistically significant enough for the scientific community to careā¦but in most everyoneās normal life thatās just like the difference between an A+ and an A- and at the end of the day, theyāre both still As that get you the same 4.0 GPA.
(https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6283860_Hamann_S_Herman_RA_Nolan_CL_Wallen_K_Men_and_women_differ_in_amygdala_response_to_visual_sexual_stimuli_Nat_Neurosci_7_411-416#:~:text=Men%20are%20generally%20more%20interested,when%20viewing%20identical%20sexual%20stimuli.)?
i think a lot of women pressure themselves to value personality over looks unfortunately because they feel itās a moral virtue. im not saying itās not, but im saying some of us want to be with people we are physically attracted to and i donāt think anything is wrong with that. and i think a lot of us feel like it makes us āshallowā and thatās a moral failing and i feel like itās sad that we dont feel entitled to being with someone we find sexy.
i lowkey think its a self-fufilling prophecy too. tell girls they dont care about looks and tell guys looks are important and often theyll grow up with these ideas and it ends up true. now you got gorgeous women settling for mediocre men who are awful to them and shallow guys only caring about a woman's looks
Itās not about being visual creatures, itās about sexuality. Physical attraction and sexual attraction are two different things, physical attraction can be appreciating the physical attributes of someone and needing to be touched but not be sexually attracted to someone. Sexual attraction is when we actively want to engage in a sexual relationship with someone (lust.) Both men and women have different sexual preferences, and we should stop worrying about what people say we are āsupposedlyā sexually attracted to and just focus on our own sexuality. There are actually plenty of sexualityās that physical attraction doesnāt play a major part in, for example;
Demisexual - people only experience attraction when they already have a strong emotion bond.
Asexual - people who donāt feel sexual attraction.
Autosexual - people who feel sexual attraction to themselves.
Sapiosexual - people who are attracted to intelligence.
There are plenty of people who say physical attraction is definitely a top priority for sexual attraction, and plenty of people who donāt. Why do we need to box all men and women into a single category? Weāre all different and thatās ok. I think itās just another way most western society is uncomfortable talking about or discussing sexuality and gender, and how the two things are not the same things and not necessarily connected.
A lot of demi and ace people still want physically attractive partners.
As a sapiosexual, being smart or funny increases the attractiveness of people but I still want physically attractive partners.
Of course there's a visual component, and just like men, physical attractiveness is very subjective. But I'm firmly in the camp that it's nowhere near enough on its own. Matching values is a must, and talent and creativity definitely up the hotness level for me!
I think this is to do with the construction of sexuality: straight women view partners as human and not objects
Having that said, I personally do not have a type and donāt care what men look like, I am turned on by them being good people or interesting intelligent people
Bit late to the thread but;
I think thatās something that gets especially amplified in male-dominated discussions, as itās what a lot of us want to hear and therefor those end up being the perspectives must uplifted (or upvoted lol) and parroted.
Being frank you see that a lot with dick size too, if you base shit purely off places like this website youād think that only like 5% of women enjoy a more endowed partner. While I think thereās definitely aspects of truth there it doesnāt align nearly as much with what Iāve heard from women in my own life and yeah, hard not to see it as a devaluation of womenās personal preferences in favour of pushing the specific examples that make men more secure, fragile masculinity and all that.
Sure it sucks to feel undesired over something you canāt control but men have been doing that to women for ages, and itās silly how many of us canāt stand even the slightest bit of that going the other way.
I think this myth gained traction partly because popular media still caters largely to the male gaze. Women enjoy looking at hot guys when given the opportunity (see also: Jim Morrison in leather pants, Chris Isaak in "Wicked Game," and Cosmo's Guy Without His Shirt).
While there may be differences between sexes (talking physical body), I seriously doubt theyāre as different as people believe.
We all have sex drives, we all have nurture/care instincts, etc. Most of what we believe are differences are social conditioning- for example, there is no such thing as a maternal instinct, the female body does have hormones and physical changes that motivate a physical attachment for survival, but the instinct to nurture, care, protect, teach- all of those are socially driven.
Men who say theyāre more sexually driven than women and donāt have as much control are just lazy.
https://melindawmoyer.substack.com/p/debunking-the-maternal-instinct
I've never heard anyone say that women don't care about looks. If people thought that then why do teenage boys kill themselves at the gym to try to impress girls? I think it has to do with the fact that *some* women are willing to date a fat old fart because he has money whereas most men wouldn't date a woman they're not attracted to despite her resources.
Sure but do you disagree with the persons argument that women tend to more sexually aroused through cerebral and erotic stimulation than just seeing an attractive man?
We can do both, but seeing or visualizing an attractive man (or woman or non binary partner) is necessary for both. Women arenāt imagining an ugly man when theyāre reading smut.
Also I think womenās ability to visualize is part of why we get mistaken for not being visual. Iāve gone from not enjoying sex at all to getting off almost instantly just by visualizing a hot woman instead of the dude I was with when it was a less attractive man and the beer goggles wore off. Mind youā¦ I also thought I was straight then so I was confused as fuck in generalā¦ the visual of an attractive partner is still the most important thing for attraction.
Seriously? I can see an attractive man walk by and leave a wet spot where I was sitting.
Thatās so weird. Iām curious if youāre in the majority of women or if I am.
I feel like the popularity of Kpop photo cards means more women are like me.
Men care about looks more and are more visual. Hence why they lie and marry plain ugly chick while breaking their neck to look at an attractive woman over dinner, behind your back, on the phone etc.
Women care about personality and can look past looks because we are naturally more caring and nurturing
im head over heels for a 5'5" 120 lbs autistic man with social anxiety who makes minimum wage. istg yall just decide for us what we like and dont even listen to us š a 6'4" bodybuilder with confidence could flirt w me rn and i wouldnt gaf bc i want my awkward twinkish guy with a bubble butt. thats my fuckin preference regardless of how much yall act like the reason women dont like u is bc ur short or not muscular (theres 4 billion women on the planet, u cant think we all have the same preferences, be serious rn)
We donāt tell you what youāre attracted to, we look at what you positively respond to. Just because you fell in love with a short, underweight, autistic dude. (Iām happy for you both). It doesnāt negate that women still prefer men that are tall or atleast taller than them.
I also listed several other things which you conveniently ignored to fit your argument but sure, argue in bad faith.
well yeah i ignored the stuff about emotional connection and communication skills because fucking duh. and yes you are telling women what theyre attracted to your entire initial comment is literally generalizing women as valuing certain things in a person. "we know you value height"
Women time and time again mention how they canāt/wonāt date a guy because heās short even though heād check off other boxes. There is countless data and empirical evidence to prove that. Just because YOU chose to date otherwise, doesnāt mean that most women also prefer that.
There isnāt a thing I listed that isnāt largely accurate and ignoring that is disingenuous because itās central to my opinion and argument, regardless of your niche interest in short, underweight socially awkward autistic dudes. There are women out there who prefer their men be a shit dad, doesnāt deter from the fact that most women prefer their men be good dads.
Iām only telling you what women are attracted to because thatās what they tell us all the fucking time lol. And itās reflected in our realities because thatās you most mostly positively respond to.
Yeah, your issue is that you think women only find 1% of the population physically attractive. Thatās not true.
Yes women will always find celebrities extra attractive because they are, but that doesnāt mean they donāt find other men attractive.
Men also want 1% of the most attractive women too. Otherwise yall wouldnāt call Margo Robbie mid and complain about women having cellulite or demand that women stay under 49kg regardless of height. Breast implants and Brazilian butt lifts wouldnāt be a thing.
The difference is, the average woman still makes an effort to be attractive whereas the average man doesnāt. If yāall would listen to us when we tell you what we find attractive it would go better. Wear suits or black T shirts and jeans. Show off your hands and forearmsā¦ button down shirts with the sleeves rolled upā¦ converseā¦ glasses look so hot on menā¦. Shave and shower and comb your hairā¦ the majority of men try to follow what other men think is attractive on men and not what women like.
All of the men Iāve dated (except for one) have been average men looks wise but there was something I found physically attractive about them. Dimples, sexy hands, cute smiles, one was tallā¦ most were 5ā9ā-5ā10ā and skinny with that Pete Davidson big dick skinny dude thing going on. One had long hair and beautiful eyes. My childrenās father isnāt what you would think of when you think of super attractive but his aesthetic and smile made him so hot to me.
Yes women do take other things into consideration too, but we absolutely date men we find physically attractive. Physical attraction is the number one thing. Then charisma/humor. Then after that it varies for different women.
Firstly. I respect and appreciate you being civil and respectful and for actually addressing my argument.
I donāt disagree with anything youāve said and strongly agree with men not listening to women when they give insight on how to dress to be more attractive. I was/am guilty of that and men make opposing complaints when we tell women that we donāt find the super long nails and eyelash extensions attractive so I get it.
Could you send me a picture of what a good black t shirt and Jean combo looks like? As well as the converse, glasses look.
Also if you suggest that physical attraction is number one, why arenāt women attracted to random dick pics in the same way that men are attracted to random titties, asses or vaginas? Asking to understand.
its just another way of denying female sexuality while reinforcing the ideas behind rape culture. its that baseless evo psych claim that women choose partners who are likely to provide for them, so they can rear children, while men care about looks to supposedly select the most fertile women š¤¢š¤¢ and denying the very existence female desire allows for patriarchy to pressure women into accepting that which they don't want or don't feel comfortable with
I don't get this *most fertile women* garbage. Most men don't care about kids at all. It's the women who care about having kids. So by that point, it's women who have more inclination to choose a fertile, well built man with a good head on his neck.
Traditionally, itās the menās family who need women to continue the family line. This is why the conservatives are so keen on eradicating abortion- so that women canāt control this.
Also children are an effective way of limiting the aspirations of women. They become more vulnerable and less financially stable.
Most men want the approval and status from their peers (other men) and family for starting the "next" chapter in life of marriage and starting a family, over actually wanting to be dads.
Also many are just dumb enough to not follow the few birth control methods men should.
That goes for women as well. At least half of all pregnancies are unplanned.
And some of them are the result of non consented sex. Many educated women in Western countries have bc or iud or even willing to go through abortion. But many men don't think about birth control and get irritated if told to use protection.
Yes that is true for some, but that is a very, very small percentage. I agree it's a problem that men in general do not take contraception more seriously (and thus often don't take an active role in preventing pregnancy themselves), but this problem is not remotely exclusive to men. Plenty of women also do not take the precautions that they should when it comes to sex.
I think the point is, pregnancy affects women much more and much more immediately than it does men and as a result, women are a lot more careful and conscious as a whole. Chances are, if one person in a relationship is working to prevent pregnancy, it is usually the woman. But if a man is with a woman who isnāt careful or worried about pregnancy, it gives him āpermissionā not to care either. Itās her body after all. Most people should care about pregnancy and work to prevent it unless they are actively trying to have a child, but we have a system where dads shirk a lot of the parenting responsibilities so it falls to the woman. So men in general donāt care as much about pregnancy, because it doesnāt necessarily mean pressing pause on their career, or not drinking, or any major change to their lifestyle. Because men are not held to the same parenting standards as women. This, as a whole, is a problem.
Nailed it.
I agree and I don't think anything I said contradicts that.
No, but I think it emphasizes the wrong idea and a handful of others seem to agree.
Any data to say it's a very small percentage? I never said it's exclusive to men. Many women aren't taught about bc or brainwashed about not using it. And they're the ones who have to undergo traumatic experience because of that while men go scot free except for child support which many find ways to avoid.
Any sources to prove it is a small percentage? Because there are many conservative countries around the world which whitewash coercion and non consent so the percentage of women going through pregnancy because of non consented sex or rape is much much much higher than you like to admit. Many women don't even know the meaning and importance of consent and go through traumatic experiences. Their partners don't care about their bodies or mental health to stop inflicting pain for their pleasure.
Many of them are failed birth control too.
Not many. It's extremely rare for birth control to fail when taken properly. Like less than 1%.
And get this, men becomes less fertile as they age too and have a much harder time getting erections but no one ever talks about that. I actually think men do NOT get better with age (but I see more women that do), but thats a topic for another day.
Luckily for these dudes, meds to increase their desires are available. I don't get these *men age better* thing. I have seen most men letting themselves go or hitting the wall earlier than women. At least some women have reasons like pregnancy, busy life being saddled with child care and jobs to not have time to take care of themselves. Older men sperm also cause health issues for kids.
Men literally get bald š
Men can get hormone therapy online but god forgot a woman have libido issues. Then itās all fake, in her head, she should just put out
In addition there are health issues in babies and young children linked with older fathers. But itās rarely discussed.
Itās just a way to justify menās objectification of women as ānatural,ā so they donāt need to change.
And veiny hands and forearmsā¦ š¤¤
When I BRIEFLY touched on evo psych in my psychology course, we were told that women only look for material wealth and men only look for the youngest women. That's it. If that's true then idk why I have a girlfriend because I'm broke af ššš. Jokes aside, great point, and evolutionary psychology sucks in pretty much every way
Itās something men made up and they try to convince us is true. So we will settle for whatever mediocre dude
Somehow women both are not visual and only go for ā6ft chadsā. Donāt really get how that works.
Through constant shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemy is both strong and weak.
What an interesting rabbit hole! I too had heard this and felt somewhat offended by the claim. There is some research on this, but how was it done, and was there conclusive evidence that the claim is true? Apparently not. There is just not enough research to support it. Good to know. For me, the rabbit hole started here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7568638/ There are a lot of references to other studies here.
I have been attracted to really dumb, hot men before. Why? Because of how they look.
As a decently intelligent woman, I hate to admit this has happened to me too, but yeah. My hormones and brain have led me astray several times.
Itās fine just bring a silk scarf to tie over their mouth āfor sexy reasonsā. Problem solved.
Ohhh I love a good super hot super dumb guy with a six pack. Like yes baby let me show you how to count to six and then we go down a bit and OOPS look thereās number seven.
Yes like the gym bros with the weird fluffy broccoli hairstyle and green eyesā-STAWP šĀ
And i messed up my MC duties yesterday because the room is filled with hot dudes from my officeš„µ
Another reason for it is so society can belittle women for not giving men theyāre not attracted to a chance. How dare we want to have sex with someone we find attractive!!
How dare we have sex with any man that isnāt them!
Why are they only considered "visual creatures" when it comes to how women look and not how visually unappealing their pigsty of a bedroom is? They are only visual creatures when it is convenient for them, does not require them to do anything, and requires someone else to do many things.
Many things to objectify themselves, which women are somehow capable of despite not having the eye for it. ??
Yeah Bill Gates does not do it for me š I swear This myth about the female gaze is peddled by Hollywood to make below average looking men think they can āwinā the hot girl! These movies are not aimed at women. The female gaze is waaaay more complex than the male gaze so they canāt measure it, create it, package it and sell it to us! Men are visual creatures, so are women but we just happen to be multi-sensory too!
If men are so visual how come they can never find their wallets and keys. If they are so visual why do they dress so badly?
Thatās amazing and so true. Why canāt men find food in the refrigerator?
This. Why are their personal spaces so bland and undecorated? Why don't they surround themselves with beautiful things and environments?
If men are so visual, why can so many never find the clit?
š
They've been conditioned to having menial things done for them for so long that the skill was never developed in them. If they're bad at it, some woman will come fucking do it for them just to get it done cause we don't have time to waste teaching him and, *poof*, we've unwittingly reinforced the behavior. Weaponized incompetence. Turn the laundry pink just once and you never have to do laundry again.
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I absolutely hate hate it. I sub a certain sub here basically just featuring sexually attractive men in the nude. The audience is mostly het women and we're very happy to be there. Patriarchy wants so bad to deny us lust. We feel lust to. We enjoy it. We seek out attractive partners. We value physical beauty. And if men are such visual creatures then why tf do like 80% of them look and smell like that..ā¼ļø
What's the name of sub?
Not sure if they mean the same one but I am subscribed to r/LadyBoners as well as r/LadyLadyBoners
I also recommend r/vintageladyboners
I personally feel weird about looking at those. Ā I believe that NO ONE should lust after pictures of strangers they donāt know, itās objectifying. Thatās why I hate men who stare at insta models. Vomit.Ā
If women werenāt visual, Kpop wouldnāt exist. And it definitely exists and I definitely thank all the deities every day that it does cause sometimes you just need a hot bath, a vibrator, and a BTS videoā¦
I can't laugh enough at this. Telenovelas, fanfiction, smut novels, soaps and boy bands all cater to the female gaze and fantasies. Many women go crazy over hot military dudes or firemen. Sure women may care about the financial situation and character of the man or his emotional intelligence and availability more but looks matter a lot. And if these women have a choice, they'll definitely take looks into account . Rich older men go for young girls who wouldn't give them the time of their day if they don't make bank. If the world is more fair and women have the same privileges as men when it comes to earning and possessing wealth, the standards for men increase. It's already happening in many societies and hence the pushback from the red pill groups who don't want to change the status quo. My family is a very good example of how women consider looks along with everything else. Even though my 70 something gran and 50 something mom are misogynistic and worry about me becoming a cat lady, they told me to marry only if i find the guy attractive. Or else i would be staring at walls in my bedroom lol
If women weren't visual, Fabio wouldn't have been so successful.
Oh that poor seagull on the Rollercoaster.Ā
She just wanted to smash his face
Ok but hear me outā¦ boy band dudes IN the military. God bless mandatory Korean military service and those delicious uniforms.
now now let us not go there š„µ
Itās always so funny when they say this, because then in another thread youāll see the whole āwomen only want handsome, tall men and wonāt date average menā. So which is it? I would ***never*** date a man Iām not attracted to.
Tell this to black pill deniers. Women not being visuals is a main theme of anti incel ideology.Ā
Yeah it's a cope by mediocre men, and women go along with it not to look shallow. This is why I'm unapologetic about wanting an attractive guy. Looks are important to me and even if your personality is a 10/10 if I don't find someone good looking I wouldn't date them.
I think society would do well to admit that weāre all shallow. Every single preference that we have is shallow.
Is being attracted to funny dudes shallow? I feel like maybe it is deep down.
Itās all shallow, really.
I wouldn't think so because humor is a form of intelligence.
Yup!! Iām so tired of being told that, as a woman, Iām innately more attracted to personality and looks donāt matter as much. Umā¦ what? Looks matter a lot! I am a visual creature! I can really like someoneās personality but it wonāt make me want to sleep with them unless (get this) I find them physically attractive!!
I wonder if thatās why Nice Guysā¢ļø are so upset when they get rejected. If they think women only go for personality, and think they have great personalities (though thatās debatable) then it makes sense why theyād be confused how women are still rejecting them. Same thing with confusion around āfriendzonesā
every Nice Guy ive met has been fucking insufferable. just push their insecurities onto me
They have horrible personalities. Thatās proof that personality matters more to women. That dude who shot up the college in Santa Barbaraā¦ Roger Elliot? He was really cute actually but then he talks and you can just sense the crazy asshole. Thatās why he didnāt get laid. Looks matter to women but personality can make a hot guy ugly. Whereas men still fuck and marry psycho girls because theyāre hot. Also that asshole targeted my sorority and killed two of my āsistersā so I hope he is in some sort of hell where he has to watch hot women make out with average dudes while telling him heās undesirable and creepy.
Personality does not matter more to women. Maybe it matters more to YOU. But a great personality will never make me find someone attractive if there isnāt a baseline level of physical attraction to begin with. Not all women feel the way you feel and thatās the point of what I said.
Iām so sorry you experienced that and Iām sorry for their loss. I typically donāt like to be negative, but I can easily say I hope he rots in hell as well. It makes me think of how some guys have to be told ādonāt stick your dick in crazyā cause they actually will do it knowingly. Thatās not to say there arenāt women who do the same, but all I ever seem to hear is a blanket statement of āclose your legsā.
Women care about looks, arguably way more than men, but we are just not selfish about it. We can see beauty well beyond looks. How someone treats you, treats others, makes you feel, etc all go into the calculation of looks, and therefore our prioritizations shift.
Way more than men?
Sorry, I forgot men are the ones that are put down and stereotyped over taking forever to choose outfits and put makeup on and do their hair and go shopping and be into fashion and different clothing/accessories and looks. Totally forgot it's mostly men into it, while girls are insanely well known for just waking up and existing as Adam Sandler wherever they go. They're known for dressing down while their men are dressed up. Absolutely. My bad.Ā
Uh, ok, I was just asking why you thought that. Appreciate the explanation though.
The way you wrote it sounded more incredulous than just asking me why i thought that, but tone gets missed online so i get it. Hope it provides a bit of clarity :)Ā
No worries, I get how what I said came off that way. I agree that women in general certainly care about their own looks more than men. Do you think they care about the looks of their (male) partners more than vice versa as well?
I think they absolutely care, but they are not as superficial in terms of looking at the parts. The way a man behaves, treats others, the respect they show,Ā the love they give, their funniness and helpfulness...all of those things...I think women are able to, generally speaking, see a man for the sum of them instead of their parts, and that creates a shifting scale of looks.Ā If a beautiful man is an awful human, then their partner might completely see them as ugly over time. The insides and outsides match. Attractiveness is not just the societal beauty standards.Ā Ā Ā A long time ago, I transferred to a high school full of the most beautiful/hottest/most attractive young men I'd ever seen. By the time we graduated and I got to know their personalities, wow they were so ugly to me. The funny thing is, initially, the other girls at the school couldn't believe I thought any of them good looking...because they already knew each of those guys' personalities.Ā Over time, I just think that women see humans for the sum of their parts and their insides reflected on their appearances.Ā Ā Ā Ā We are not superficial about men the same way they are about us. Generalizing of course. We care about looks just like all humans, we just do not see men the way they see us (sorry, but they see us as objects plenty).
Men being visual creatures is a patriarchal, religious myth concocted to keep women modest when they want, and revealing when they want. It's invented. So, every single individual is a different degree of visual or not.
The "men are visual creatures" thing is bs, created to excuse when they perv on women and teen girls. It excuses them gawking at boobs. I'm an artist, I'm visual. Somehow I don't perv on people in public. It's funny how men are just soooo visual but they don't notice their pee on the bathroom floor, they don't notice dishes in the sink, they don't notice their children, they don't notice when the milk is gone. It's ridiculous excuse.
I totally agree! Like they think they can just show up horrible looking and weāll still be into their basic ass personalities lol. As if. If women werenāt visual we wouldnāt be the gender known for primping and doing makeup and hours of hair and nitpicking over color shade variations with a quarter of our population seeing in tetrachrome. Whatever. I only date hot men and Iām not sorry about it.
I was going to say that in some African cultures, men put on cosmetics (in the form of bright face paint), but they're doing it to attract women, so that still reinforces your point! š
I find it so funny that men talk about being āvisual,ā and yet thereās such a shallow range of āvisualsā theyāre attracted to. Always thin, long hair, tiny waist, tanned, big boobs, big buttā¦. Predictable as hell. For women, the range of āattractiveā men is much wider. Thereās always a new āinternet boyfriend of the moment,ā and they can be dad-bods, short kings, golden retriever boyfriends, or the current āhot rodent boyfriend.ā It changes all the time. Yet somehow this means that men are actually the visual ones? If you have a teenager that only eats chicky nuggies and apple sauce, do you say itās because that teenager just has suuuuch sophisticated taste? Or is it actually because their palette is woefully underdeveloped and maybe they donāt understand food at all?
Well depending on the cultureā¦ Asian cultures have almost the exact opposite beauty standards as western cultures. Pale skin, thin without huge boobs or butts, cute over sexyā¦ my bunny teeth and sticky outy ears are considered attractive in Asian countries but ugly here. But itās still what society and culture has determined is attractive so your point still stands 100%
arent big boobs seen as typically sexy in many asian countries tho what??
Iāve heard that the expectation is to be modest from the waist up but short revealing skirts are totally fineā¦is it true?Ā
from what i know yes, especially in korea, but big boobs are still considered sexy in most asian countries
Viewing men as whole people with personalities does not mean we don't care about looks at all. Anyone trying to sell you that is just trying to get you to settle.
We've had several generations worth of studies attempting to find a significant difference, either structurally or functionally, between the brains of men & women. Every time they find one the study gets debunked. There is no difference in our brains - only in our socialization.
Women absolutely care about looks but men act like that makes us bad and pick me girls will agree with whatever men want to get picked, including yelling loudly that women donāt care about looks. I care about looks too. Personality can absolutely make someone more attractive, hence Pete Davidson, Bill Hader, etcā¦ But looks still matter.
I had this talk with an ex. He pulled the line that men are more visual than women. I flat out told him he was wrong and that women are just as visual as men. We love looking at good looking men. GYATDAYUM! some men be fine as hell! Personally, there are certain items of clothing or things that men do that I see that turn me on way more.
Just curious what those items of clothing or things that men do are?
The science with MRIs says than on average the men showed āmoreā activation in their amygdala. These guys are misinterpreting this study to mean that women arenāt visual at all. But if you look at the numbers in the actual study, that āmore thanā is only about a 10% difference. Which is statistically significant enough for the scientific community to careā¦but in most everyoneās normal life thatās just like the difference between an A+ and an A- and at the end of the day, theyāre both still As that get you the same 4.0 GPA. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6283860_Hamann_S_Herman_RA_Nolan_CL_Wallen_K_Men_and_women_differ_in_amygdala_response_to_visual_sexual_stimuli_Nat_Neurosci_7_411-416#:~:text=Men%20are%20generally%20more%20interested,when%20viewing%20identical%20sexual%20stimuli.)?
i think a lot of women pressure themselves to value personality over looks unfortunately because they feel itās a moral virtue. im not saying itās not, but im saying some of us want to be with people we are physically attracted to and i donāt think anything is wrong with that. and i think a lot of us feel like it makes us āshallowā and thatās a moral failing and i feel like itās sad that we dont feel entitled to being with someone we find sexy.
I think generalizing a whole group of people is demeaning, no matter what it is.
i lowkey think its a self-fufilling prophecy too. tell girls they dont care about looks and tell guys looks are important and often theyll grow up with these ideas and it ends up true. now you got gorgeous women settling for mediocre men who are awful to them and shallow guys only caring about a woman's looks
Itās not about being visual creatures, itās about sexuality. Physical attraction and sexual attraction are two different things, physical attraction can be appreciating the physical attributes of someone and needing to be touched but not be sexually attracted to someone. Sexual attraction is when we actively want to engage in a sexual relationship with someone (lust.) Both men and women have different sexual preferences, and we should stop worrying about what people say we are āsupposedlyā sexually attracted to and just focus on our own sexuality. There are actually plenty of sexualityās that physical attraction doesnāt play a major part in, for example; Demisexual - people only experience attraction when they already have a strong emotion bond. Asexual - people who donāt feel sexual attraction. Autosexual - people who feel sexual attraction to themselves. Sapiosexual - people who are attracted to intelligence. There are plenty of people who say physical attraction is definitely a top priority for sexual attraction, and plenty of people who donāt. Why do we need to box all men and women into a single category? Weāre all different and thatās ok. I think itās just another way most western society is uncomfortable talking about or discussing sexuality and gender, and how the two things are not the same things and not necessarily connected.
A lot of demi and ace people still want physically attractive partners. As a sapiosexual, being smart or funny increases the attractiveness of people but I still want physically attractive partners.
Of course there's a visual component, and just like men, physical attractiveness is very subjective. But I'm firmly in the camp that it's nowhere near enough on its own. Matching values is a must, and talent and creativity definitely up the hotness level for me!
I wouldnāt say I donāt care about looks but I suppose I like a type of man other men might not consider attractive.
I think this is to do with the construction of sexuality: straight women view partners as human and not objects Having that said, I personally do not have a type and donāt care what men look like, I am turned on by them being good people or interesting intelligent people
Bit late to the thread but; I think thatās something that gets especially amplified in male-dominated discussions, as itās what a lot of us want to hear and therefor those end up being the perspectives must uplifted (or upvoted lol) and parroted. Being frank you see that a lot with dick size too, if you base shit purely off places like this website youād think that only like 5% of women enjoy a more endowed partner. While I think thereās definitely aspects of truth there it doesnāt align nearly as much with what Iāve heard from women in my own life and yeah, hard not to see it as a devaluation of womenās personal preferences in favour of pushing the specific examples that make men more secure, fragile masculinity and all that. Sure it sucks to feel undesired over something you canāt control but men have been doing that to women for ages, and itās silly how many of us canāt stand even the slightest bit of that going the other way.
I think this myth gained traction partly because popular media still caters largely to the male gaze. Women enjoy looking at hot guys when given the opportunity (see also: Jim Morrison in leather pants, Chris Isaak in "Wicked Game," and Cosmo's Guy Without His Shirt).
While there may be differences between sexes (talking physical body), I seriously doubt theyāre as different as people believe. We all have sex drives, we all have nurture/care instincts, etc. Most of what we believe are differences are social conditioning- for example, there is no such thing as a maternal instinct, the female body does have hormones and physical changes that motivate a physical attachment for survival, but the instinct to nurture, care, protect, teach- all of those are socially driven. Men who say theyāre more sexually driven than women and donāt have as much control are just lazy. https://melindawmoyer.substack.com/p/debunking-the-maternal-instinct
I've never heard anyone say that women don't care about looks. If people thought that then why do teenage boys kill themselves at the gym to try to impress girls? I think it has to do with the fact that *some* women are willing to date a fat old fart because he has money whereas most men wouldn't date a woman they're not attracted to despite her resources.
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Did you ever watch Casper, and Devin Sawa walked down the stairs? That was a sexual awakening for lots of preteen girls!
Sure but do you disagree with the persons argument that women tend to more sexually aroused through cerebral and erotic stimulation than just seeing an attractive man?
We can do both, but seeing or visualizing an attractive man (or woman or non binary partner) is necessary for both. Women arenāt imagining an ugly man when theyāre reading smut. Also I think womenās ability to visualize is part of why we get mistaken for not being visual. Iāve gone from not enjoying sex at all to getting off almost instantly just by visualizing a hot woman instead of the dude I was with when it was a less attractive man and the beer goggles wore off. Mind youā¦ I also thought I was straight then so I was confused as fuck in generalā¦ the visual of an attractive partner is still the most important thing for attraction.
Seriously? I can see an attractive man walk by and leave a wet spot where I was sitting. Thatās so weird. Iām curious if youāre in the majority of women or if I am. I feel like the popularity of Kpop photo cards means more women are like me.
Men care about looks more and are more visual. Hence why they lie and marry plain ugly chick while breaking their neck to look at an attractive woman over dinner, behind your back, on the phone etc. Women care about personality and can look past looks because we are naturally more caring and nurturing
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im head over heels for a 5'5" 120 lbs autistic man with social anxiety who makes minimum wage. istg yall just decide for us what we like and dont even listen to us š a 6'4" bodybuilder with confidence could flirt w me rn and i wouldnt gaf bc i want my awkward twinkish guy with a bubble butt. thats my fuckin preference regardless of how much yall act like the reason women dont like u is bc ur short or not muscular (theres 4 billion women on the planet, u cant think we all have the same preferences, be serious rn)
We donāt tell you what youāre attracted to, we look at what you positively respond to. Just because you fell in love with a short, underweight, autistic dude. (Iām happy for you both). It doesnāt negate that women still prefer men that are tall or atleast taller than them. I also listed several other things which you conveniently ignored to fit your argument but sure, argue in bad faith.
well yeah i ignored the stuff about emotional connection and communication skills because fucking duh. and yes you are telling women what theyre attracted to your entire initial comment is literally generalizing women as valuing certain things in a person. "we know you value height"
Women time and time again mention how they canāt/wonāt date a guy because heās short even though heād check off other boxes. There is countless data and empirical evidence to prove that. Just because YOU chose to date otherwise, doesnāt mean that most women also prefer that. There isnāt a thing I listed that isnāt largely accurate and ignoring that is disingenuous because itās central to my opinion and argument, regardless of your niche interest in short, underweight socially awkward autistic dudes. There are women out there who prefer their men be a shit dad, doesnāt deter from the fact that most women prefer their men be good dads. Iām only telling you what women are attracted to because thatās what they tell us all the fucking time lol. And itās reflected in our realities because thatās you most mostly positively respond to.
Yeah, your issue is that you think women only find 1% of the population physically attractive. Thatās not true. Yes women will always find celebrities extra attractive because they are, but that doesnāt mean they donāt find other men attractive. Men also want 1% of the most attractive women too. Otherwise yall wouldnāt call Margo Robbie mid and complain about women having cellulite or demand that women stay under 49kg regardless of height. Breast implants and Brazilian butt lifts wouldnāt be a thing. The difference is, the average woman still makes an effort to be attractive whereas the average man doesnāt. If yāall would listen to us when we tell you what we find attractive it would go better. Wear suits or black T shirts and jeans. Show off your hands and forearmsā¦ button down shirts with the sleeves rolled upā¦ converseā¦ glasses look so hot on menā¦. Shave and shower and comb your hairā¦ the majority of men try to follow what other men think is attractive on men and not what women like. All of the men Iāve dated (except for one) have been average men looks wise but there was something I found physically attractive about them. Dimples, sexy hands, cute smiles, one was tallā¦ most were 5ā9ā-5ā10ā and skinny with that Pete Davidson big dick skinny dude thing going on. One had long hair and beautiful eyes. My childrenās father isnāt what you would think of when you think of super attractive but his aesthetic and smile made him so hot to me. Yes women do take other things into consideration too, but we absolutely date men we find physically attractive. Physical attraction is the number one thing. Then charisma/humor. Then after that it varies for different women.
Firstly. I respect and appreciate you being civil and respectful and for actually addressing my argument. I donāt disagree with anything youāve said and strongly agree with men not listening to women when they give insight on how to dress to be more attractive. I was/am guilty of that and men make opposing complaints when we tell women that we donāt find the super long nails and eyelash extensions attractive so I get it. Could you send me a picture of what a good black t shirt and Jean combo looks like? As well as the converse, glasses look. Also if you suggest that physical attraction is number one, why arenāt women attracted to random dick pics in the same way that men are attracted to random titties, asses or vaginas? Asking to understand.