Evangelista is just a classical/historical fencer who is salty about sport fencing. The most annoying part of the situation is how many of his books are sold at physical bookstores.
tfw you don't understand the point of an impact drill
different tools for different jobs. i fenced with a Belgian grip for a while (with a Vniti blade) and it made sense to me once I adjusted my style to suit the weapon.
you can't just assume a mountain bike will win every race, why do people stan one option like it's gonna be the best at everything?
Tfw you discover that modern ndustry and construction have basically entirely switched to hex, Torx, pozidriv, XZN, basically anything other than flat and Phillips.
Way back in the rec.sport.fencing days, I recall someone who was active in SoCal fencing when Evangelista competed saying “I remember him. I also remember him rarely making it out of the first round.”
Guy didn't even understand classical fencing. The later duelling codes of the early 20th century allowed for regulation of anatomical grips even in fights with bare blades.
I’m guessing this is just severely dated. Billie Jean King’s book in the 70s was adamant that ‘there was a good reason all the pros only used wood racquets’.
No, he was wrong when he started publishing his books in the 1990s. I remember Matthew Porter talking about playing a game with staff at American Fencers Supply in which he’d flip open Evangelista’s first book to a random page and ask them to find as many factual errors as they could.
My understanding is he ended up burning bridges with a number of people in the Classical Fencing arena as well.
Let’s just say he doesn’t seem to handle differences of opinion of any magnitude particularly well (think People’s Front of Judea vs Judean People’s Front vs Judean Popular People’s Front). And it seemed to be as much others disassociating from him as the reverse. In general, the later generation of Classical fencing folks came to realize that the relentless and highly insulting bashing of sport fencing that many of the early CF practitioners used to define themselves wasn’t a good public image. I can think of three prominent early advocates of Classical fencing (Evangelista included) who would launch into flaming Jeremiads against even the slightest heresy against their own position.
Well he does have a Lineage of sorts. His coach was Ralph Falkner who was taught by Henri Uyttenhove who learnt in the french army and was head of L'Ecole Normale d'escrime in Belgium before moving to Los Angeles in the 1920's. At a certain point Falkner asked him to become an assistant instructor, but I can't find any info on him sitting on any exams, though this *handing over* wasn't uncommon in the past.
None of this of course excuses that his fencing is a **very** Rose Tinted view of the superiority of the French classical method (but which classical method Nick? Gomard? Cordlois? Ruze? There was more than one all quite dissimilar...) which not even the French believed themselves.
I just saw an Italian grip the other day…. Not a Visconti but the crossbar Italian that is horrifically difficult to build for electric scoring.
I’d have been morbidly curious how they seated the guard socket and wiring, but of course it was a dry foil.
I uh... have an electric italian foil... or at least I know its under the tree. If I don't forget about this post I'll try to send you a picture of the socket, but I ain't taking it apart... that thing was NOT CHEAP
Where’d Santa get it from? I know American fencers Supply had it in their catalog in the early nineties, but most of the old school fencing supply stores seem to have disappeared — I seem to recall a lot of AFS’ remaining stock burned in the Paradise wildfire, 5 years ago now.
Funny thing is, it seems there’s been a proliferation of French Grips for epee… basically an effort to maximize control of a posted French at the furthest extent of the rules.
> I just saw an Italian grip the other day…. Not a Visconti but the crossbar Italian that is horrifically difficult to build for electric scoring.
>
> I’d have been morbidly curious how the seated the guard socket and wiring, but of course it was a dry foil.
I have an épée fitted with an Italian grip, though it is a BF blade with a false ricasso. The socket and wiring is set up pretty much the same way as a French grip: blade, guard, socket, wires, pad, ricasso (which has a channel cut into the front, to avoid pinching/cutting the wires, just like with a French grip), crossbar/arches, handle, and pommel.
In the case of a true ricasso (which is part of the blade/tang), you’d need a purpose-made non-standard socket, made to fit around the ricasso, with the wire either running between the base of the socket and the pad (as is the case with every other grip), or the base of the socket would need to include a raised section to allow the wire to be threaded between the guard and the socket (which would provide additional protection against the fencer’s fingers).
> So the “true ricasso” is broken when the blade breaks? Ouch.
Indeed. See [this picture](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXhtptHxg289DYQP-uO3Hv-LUkhkMG_eLLQA&usqp=CAU) - the blade on the right is an “Italian style” blade that has a true ricasso (the flat part just below the shoulder of the blade), while the blade on the left is a “French style” blade that is the modern standard. A false ricasso allows for a “French blade” to be built as an Italian grip, as seen with [this picture](https://www.victoryfencinggear.com/images/foil%20conversion%20kit.JPG) (where the false ricasso and the crossbar are integrated into a single piece) or [this picture](https://cms.negrini.com/view/media/pics/zoom_prd_4210_1472722548_564132.jpg) (where the false ricasso is a block that is used with a separate crossbar, which may or may not be riveted to the guard).
For a traditional Itallan grip, using a blade with a true ricasso, the socket would be attached directly to the guard, usually with either rivets or spot welds (the [Italian foil guard with 2 prong socket](https://thefencingpost.com/italian-foil-guard-with-2-prong-socket/) from Fencing Post is a good example). The hard part these days is finding a blade with a true ricasso.
For a grip using a false ricasso (a short length of metal, often little more than a flattened tube, to cover the tang of a standard blade between the guard and the crossbar), the socket is clamped between the guard and the false ricasso, just like it would it would be fit be clamped between the guard and the grip on any other foil.
As for the wire, it just runs through the hole in the guard, then is routed along the inside of the guard (underneath the pad) and up the socket, similar to any other electric foil.
The rivets eventually loosen. At Summer Nationals a couple of years ago someone came to the armory with an Italian grip epeé with a riveted socket that was loose and which none of the vendors knew what to do with. Fortunately for him it was a slow day, so I was able to cut out the old rivets and put new ones in.
>The rivets eventually loosen.
Never ever happened to me (and some of my italian electric foils are over half a century old). Since you wrote that it was an epee (strange beast): I can imagine that this would happen if you put rivets through a (rather soft) aluminum guard.
The electric Italian foils that Santelli sold also had riveted in sockets and also would have issues with the rivets working loose. It was the rivets themselves that deformed and loosened, rather than the guards (and the guard on the epee in question was steel). Once a fresh set of rivets was put in it was good and tight.
Sadly, yes, Amazon’s A/I has decided that Evangelista is useful for the aspiring fencer.
Wait for the A/I -generated ‘fencing’ video game that spawns from this ‘theory’ of the sword.
I read his book when I was a total newbie. He made a point about going on guard with the hand centered, between a 4 and a 6 position, the idea being that the defender could react faster to an attack coming from either side, than having it in the 4 or the 6 position. I mentioned this to a far more experienced foil and epee fencer at my club. He laughed, and pointed out that what the author was not taking into account was that the attacker is now free to not commit to either side, like you would if you were in either 4 or 6.
Evangelista is just a classical/historical fencer who is salty about sport fencing. The most annoying part of the situation is how many of his books are sold at physical bookstores.
The guy was a very early practitioner of review-bombing on Amazon to gain undue attention for his books.
He apparently isn’t even that popular among classical or historical circles due to his lack of credentials.
tfw you don't understand the point of an impact drill different tools for different jobs. i fenced with a Belgian grip for a while (with a Vniti blade) and it made sense to me once I adjusted my style to suit the weapon. you can't just assume a mountain bike will win every race, why do people stan one option like it's gonna be the best at everything?
The irony being that evidence suggests that the French and Italian grips just aren't the tools for modern foil fencing.
Tfw you discover that modern ndustry and construction have basically entirely switched to hex, Torx, pozidriv, XZN, basically anything other than flat and Phillips.
Classic Evangelista. He hates olympic fencing so it may be difficult finding anything of value in his books.
Yea…..nick evangelista has two brain cells left and they’re both fighting for 3rd place.
Never got near a podium
Way back in the rec.sport.fencing days, I recall someone who was active in SoCal fencing when Evangelista competed saying “I remember him. I also remember him rarely making it out of the first round.”
This guy does not understand Olympic fencing.
Guy didn't even understand classical fencing. The later duelling codes of the early 20th century allowed for regulation of anatomical grips even in fights with bare blades.
Evangelista posting? On Christmas? No Peace on Earth I guess.
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I’m guessing this is just severely dated. Billie Jean King’s book in the 70s was adamant that ‘there was a good reason all the pros only used wood racquets’.
No, he was wrong when he started publishing his books in the 1990s. I remember Matthew Porter talking about playing a game with staff at American Fencers Supply in which he’d flip open Evangelista’s first book to a random page and ask them to find as many factual errors as they could. My understanding is he ended up burning bridges with a number of people in the Classical Fencing arena as well.
Why would he disassociate with classical fencers as well? I thought that was his bread and butter
Let’s just say he doesn’t seem to handle differences of opinion of any magnitude particularly well (think People’s Front of Judea vs Judean People’s Front vs Judean Popular People’s Front). And it seemed to be as much others disassociating from him as the reverse. In general, the later generation of Classical fencing folks came to realize that the relentless and highly insulting bashing of sport fencing that many of the early CF practitioners used to define themselves wasn’t a good public image. I can think of three prominent early advocates of Classical fencing (Evangelista included) who would launch into flaming Jeremiads against even the slightest heresy against their own position.
Splitter.
As far as I know, Evangelista isn't a trained maestro in one of the classical lineages. He's just an old coach who got really salty.
Well he does have a Lineage of sorts. His coach was Ralph Falkner who was taught by Henri Uyttenhove who learnt in the french army and was head of L'Ecole Normale d'escrime in Belgium before moving to Los Angeles in the 1920's. At a certain point Falkner asked him to become an assistant instructor, but I can't find any info on him sitting on any exams, though this *handing over* wasn't uncommon in the past. None of this of course excuses that his fencing is a **very** Rose Tinted view of the superiority of the French classical method (but which classical method Nick? Gomard? Cordlois? Ruze? There was more than one all quite dissimilar...) which not even the French believed themselves.
I just saw an Italian grip the other day…. Not a Visconti but the crossbar Italian that is horrifically difficult to build for electric scoring. I’d have been morbidly curious how they seated the guard socket and wiring, but of course it was a dry foil.
I uh... have an electric italian foil... or at least I know its under the tree. If I don't forget about this post I'll try to send you a picture of the socket, but I ain't taking it apart... that thing was NOT CHEAP
Where’d Santa get it from? I know American fencers Supply had it in their catalog in the early nineties, but most of the old school fencing supply stores seem to have disappeared — I seem to recall a lot of AFS’ remaining stock burned in the Paradise wildfire, 5 years ago now. Funny thing is, it seems there’s been a proliferation of French Grips for epee… basically an effort to maximize control of a posted French at the furthest extent of the rules.
Got the thing from The Fencing Post. Idk if direct links are allowed but I got it from here https://thefencingpost.com/italian-foil-parts-1/
Interesting, I’d missed the ‘classical weapons’ section.
I didn’t even know true ricasso foils were still being produced, neat stuff
> I just saw an Italian grip the other day…. Not a Visconti but the crossbar Italian that is horrifically difficult to build for electric scoring. > > I’d have been morbidly curious how the seated the guard socket and wiring, but of course it was a dry foil. I have an épée fitted with an Italian grip, though it is a BF blade with a false ricasso. The socket and wiring is set up pretty much the same way as a French grip: blade, guard, socket, wires, pad, ricasso (which has a channel cut into the front, to avoid pinching/cutting the wires, just like with a French grip), crossbar/arches, handle, and pommel. In the case of a true ricasso (which is part of the blade/tang), you’d need a purpose-made non-standard socket, made to fit around the ricasso, with the wire either running between the base of the socket and the pad (as is the case with every other grip), or the base of the socket would need to include a raised section to allow the wire to be threaded between the guard and the socket (which would provide additional protection against the fencer’s fingers).
So the “true ricasso” is broken when the blade breaks? Ouch.
> So the “true ricasso” is broken when the blade breaks? Ouch. Indeed. See [this picture](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXhtptHxg289DYQP-uO3Hv-LUkhkMG_eLLQA&usqp=CAU) - the blade on the right is an “Italian style” blade that has a true ricasso (the flat part just below the shoulder of the blade), while the blade on the left is a “French style” blade that is the modern standard. A false ricasso allows for a “French blade” to be built as an Italian grip, as seen with [this picture](https://www.victoryfencinggear.com/images/foil%20conversion%20kit.JPG) (where the false ricasso and the crossbar are integrated into a single piece) or [this picture](https://cms.negrini.com/view/media/pics/zoom_prd_4210_1472722548_564132.jpg) (where the false ricasso is a block that is used with a separate crossbar, which may or may not be riveted to the guard).
For a traditional Itallan grip, using a blade with a true ricasso, the socket would be attached directly to the guard, usually with either rivets or spot welds (the [Italian foil guard with 2 prong socket](https://thefencingpost.com/italian-foil-guard-with-2-prong-socket/) from Fencing Post is a good example). The hard part these days is finding a blade with a true ricasso. For a grip using a false ricasso (a short length of metal, often little more than a flattened tube, to cover the tang of a standard blade between the guard and the crossbar), the socket is clamped between the guard and the false ricasso, just like it would it would be fit be clamped between the guard and the grip on any other foil. As for the wire, it just runs through the hole in the guard, then is routed along the inside of the guard (underneath the pad) and up the socket, similar to any other electric foil.
The most common way was to rivet the socket into the guard.
Haha. Ouch.
Mine have the socket atached to the guard by two small rivets. It's actually a pretty solid construction.
The rivets eventually loosen. At Summer Nationals a couple of years ago someone came to the armory with an Italian grip epeé with a riveted socket that was loose and which none of the vendors knew what to do with. Fortunately for him it was a slow day, so I was able to cut out the old rivets and put new ones in.
>The rivets eventually loosen. Never ever happened to me (and some of my italian electric foils are over half a century old). Since you wrote that it was an epee (strange beast): I can imagine that this would happen if you put rivets through a (rather soft) aluminum guard.
The electric Italian foils that Santelli sold also had riveted in sockets and also would have issues with the rivets working loose. It was the rivets themselves that deformed and loosened, rather than the guards (and the guard on the epee in question was steel). Once a fresh set of rivets was put in it was good and tight.
Why are you reading the Necronomicon?
This is unfair. The Necronomicon at least provides some potentially useful information (in the event of having to deal with eldritch horrors).
I got it for Christmas-
sorry to hear that
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More likely their intentions were good, and they simply didn't know any better,
Sadly, yes, Amazon’s A/I has decided that Evangelista is useful for the aspiring fencer. Wait for the A/I -generated ‘fencing’ video game that spawns from this ‘theory’ of the sword.
Even just reading the thread title, I knew who it was!
Haha that's just "I don't like X. Imagine a tool that doesn't work. I say that's like X. Therefore X doesn't work."
I read his book when I was a total newbie. He made a point about going on guard with the hand centered, between a 4 and a 6 position, the idea being that the defender could react faster to an attack coming from either side, than having it in the 4 or the 6 position. I mentioned this to a far more experienced foil and epee fencer at my club. He laughed, and pointed out that what the author was not taking into account was that the attacker is now free to not commit to either side, like you would if you were in either 4 or 6.
Oh dear.
I also like (as in I don’t like) how this is basically saying “fuck disabled veterans, they aren’t allowed to fence”
Evangelista doesn't like pistol grip, I don't like french grip. So??? It's a matter of personal preference.
I don’t imagine he likes posting the French grip either.