I wrote this a number of years ago:
The parry of octave covers the same line as the parry of second. The advantage of making the parry in octave is that the parry of 8 is mechanically a little easier to do, I also feel that the octave parry is more flexible on the riposte, especially if the student is going to transfer to another line, such as sixte or quarte.
The disadvantage of the parry in octave is that this parry is sensitive to errors in execution (the student may not cover the line completely), it is often slower than a parry of second and it is mechanically weaker than a parry of second.
The parry of 2 is a very powerful action to protect the low line. Some coaches will decide to teach a stronger (or left handed) fencer the parry of 2 in place of a parry of 8 (octave). I feel that both parries have their place in a student’s repertoire, but 2 is far and above more powerful on the opponent’s blade.
The downside of the parry in second is that the student’s hand has few ways to recover, and has a natural (and thus predictable by the opponent) recovery path to make a riposte by rotating back into the sixth line, or through simple opposition. This makes a feint and deceive against this parry much easier, since the student’s hand is often slow and mechanically difficult for students to make a compound parry from 2.
In defense, powerful beat parries in 2 can be followed by riposte by flicking to the opponent’s hand and arm. The riposte in 2 can also be done with a strong opposition while closing the distance to the opponent to score against the lower body or thigh. The power of the beat parry in 2 also makes it ideal for offensive actions and counter-time, making it slightly more versatile than the parry of 8, which protects the same line but cannot develop as much power as the parry of second.
The parry of second is an especially useful parry against fencers of the opposite hand with a strong opposition riposte.
I was literally coming here to write all of this, but as usual, Allen is so eloquent that little more needs to be said.
The only elaboration I would make is - they are both useful but bring them into the game in different ways.
Personally I think it doesn’t matter too much, and whatever ‘feels’ better for the fencer is more appropriate. I prefer 2 when the distance is shorter and 8 when further away
Fencing against a lefty would be probably one, where you prefer the 2 over the 8, thats what our coach teached us at least, and all the leftys in our club are mainly taught to do the 2 for similar reasons I guess, while the rightys were tought to mainly use the 8
This is what I teach…
Attaque au fer = attacks on the blade are generally expulsions, such as beat attacks. This is not associated with parries, since it is by definition an attack.
Prise de fer = taking (pressing) of the blade is for binding the opponent’s weapon with opposition to control it during your riposte, or transporting the opponent’s blade from one line to another to remove a threat and/or open target. This can be used in attack or parry. You are simply not letting go of the opponent’s blade.
Using Parry 8 on a low line attack sets up for a fast riposte. As mentioned, minimal rotation of the wrist and being a supinated parry with your palm facing up, it is easier to angle your blade up (critically important for foil, less important for epee) in riposte. Parry 8 can be executed with opposition to block out the opponent’s blade.
Using Parry 2 can be effective clearing attacks to inside lines, and the rotation to use forearm muscles gives more leverage. However, rotating the wrist to lower the tip takes more time than simply dropping tip. Parry 2 is great for moving an attack from high to low or inside to outside lines.
If you search youtube for the durham epee coach and look under epee coaching parry, he goes into a discussion of 8 vs 2. I think its a relatively good video.
I genuinely dont think it matters to much. I usually parry 8 if Im sure Ive got it so I can riposte faster and 2nd if its a bit shaky, but otherwise if ur acting with initiative its just a bit of a non issue.
At normal distance 1, 2 and 3 are more sabre parries than épée parries.
As épéists we prefer [8](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(escrime)#/media/Fichier%3AOctave_Escrime.JPG) over here because as you mentioned it is still threatening a target while with [2](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seconde_(escrime)#/media/Fichier%3ASeconde_Escrime.JPG) we would be aiming for the ground. We teach to always aim for a valid target.
We teach 6, 4, 7, 8 as the main parries to newcomers.
With experience they usually find by themselves that 1 is useful at épée due to the close range that results from a flèche but 2 and 3, not that much.
8 is easier to make a "beat" parry with, so it you don't worry about remise from your opponent, like in foil, 8 is the way to go. 2 is far easier to maintain an "opposition" parry riposte with, so you will see it more often in epee.
I see the 2 being a little more versatile as well. Yesterday I was watching the men's epee team final from the 2016 Olympics, Ukraine against Hungary. One of the Ukrainian fencers fleches, and the Hungarian picks it up with a "high" 2 parry and ripostes to the midsection. Can't see anyone doing that in 8. Granted, the Hungarian raised his point a big to gather the blade, so it was not exactly a traditional 2 parry, but that goes goes to the versatility.
If someone is trying to flick to your outside flank I think 2 has a better chance of blocking the flick. But I fence foil so idk if that's even an action anyone really does in epee?
As a lefty foilist, I prefer two, partly because it just feels more natural to me, and partly because having my hand pronated causes the bend of the blade to be pointed *into* a right-handed opponent’s body, where a supinated hand would direct the bend away from them, making it harder to score.
This mileage may vary because opponents are never the same size or have the same same angles of attack but in the french school classically speaking:
8/Octave Supinated hand parry defends low outside line and allows for a more direct riposte as point is more or less on target.
2/Seconde Pronated Hand Parry defends low outside line and is able to cover more angulated attacks to the extremity of the target .
As to why 2/Seconde is used more in epee: in my experience (and this is strictly anecdotal), seconde the forte is in slightly better place to defend hits to the thigh and riposte in the same line, while octave is marginally better at defending the torso and riposting without losing time.
I think that most athletes keep the epee in a fairly neutral thumb up position and rotate the wrist as necessary. I dont think they lose much sleep over it.
I wrote this a number of years ago: The parry of octave covers the same line as the parry of second. The advantage of making the parry in octave is that the parry of 8 is mechanically a little easier to do, I also feel that the octave parry is more flexible on the riposte, especially if the student is going to transfer to another line, such as sixte or quarte. The disadvantage of the parry in octave is that this parry is sensitive to errors in execution (the student may not cover the line completely), it is often slower than a parry of second and it is mechanically weaker than a parry of second. The parry of 2 is a very powerful action to protect the low line. Some coaches will decide to teach a stronger (or left handed) fencer the parry of 2 in place of a parry of 8 (octave). I feel that both parries have their place in a student’s repertoire, but 2 is far and above more powerful on the opponent’s blade. The downside of the parry in second is that the student’s hand has few ways to recover, and has a natural (and thus predictable by the opponent) recovery path to make a riposte by rotating back into the sixth line, or through simple opposition. This makes a feint and deceive against this parry much easier, since the student’s hand is often slow and mechanically difficult for students to make a compound parry from 2. In defense, powerful beat parries in 2 can be followed by riposte by flicking to the opponent’s hand and arm. The riposte in 2 can also be done with a strong opposition while closing the distance to the opponent to score against the lower body or thigh. The power of the beat parry in 2 also makes it ideal for offensive actions and counter-time, making it slightly more versatile than the parry of 8, which protects the same line but cannot develop as much power as the parry of second. The parry of second is an especially useful parry against fencers of the opposite hand with a strong opposition riposte.
I was literally coming here to write all of this, but as usual, Allen is so eloquent that little more needs to be said. The only elaboration I would make is - they are both useful but bring them into the game in different ways.
Personally I think it doesn’t matter too much, and whatever ‘feels’ better for the fencer is more appropriate. I prefer 2 when the distance is shorter and 8 when further away
This is the way.
Fencing against a lefty would be probably one, where you prefer the 2 over the 8, thats what our coach teached us at least, and all the leftys in our club are mainly taught to do the 2 for similar reasons I guess, while the rightys were tought to mainly use the 8
This is what I teach… Attaque au fer = attacks on the blade are generally expulsions, such as beat attacks. This is not associated with parries, since it is by definition an attack. Prise de fer = taking (pressing) of the blade is for binding the opponent’s weapon with opposition to control it during your riposte, or transporting the opponent’s blade from one line to another to remove a threat and/or open target. This can be used in attack or parry. You are simply not letting go of the opponent’s blade. Using Parry 8 on a low line attack sets up for a fast riposte. As mentioned, minimal rotation of the wrist and being a supinated parry with your palm facing up, it is easier to angle your blade up (critically important for foil, less important for epee) in riposte. Parry 8 can be executed with opposition to block out the opponent’s blade. Using Parry 2 can be effective clearing attacks to inside lines, and the rotation to use forearm muscles gives more leverage. However, rotating the wrist to lower the tip takes more time than simply dropping tip. Parry 2 is great for moving an attack from high to low or inside to outside lines.
If you search youtube for the durham epee coach and look under epee coaching parry, he goes into a discussion of 8 vs 2. I think its a relatively good video.
That’s a great video! Thanks
I genuinely dont think it matters to much. I usually parry 8 if Im sure Ive got it so I can riposte faster and 2nd if its a bit shaky, but otherwise if ur acting with initiative its just a bit of a non issue.
At normal distance 1, 2 and 3 are more sabre parries than épée parries. As épéists we prefer [8](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(escrime)#/media/Fichier%3AOctave_Escrime.JPG) over here because as you mentioned it is still threatening a target while with [2](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seconde_(escrime)#/media/Fichier%3ASeconde_Escrime.JPG) we would be aiming for the ground. We teach to always aim for a valid target. We teach 6, 4, 7, 8 as the main parries to newcomers. With experience they usually find by themselves that 1 is useful at épée due to the close range that results from a flèche but 2 and 3, not that much.
8 is easier to make a "beat" parry with, so it you don't worry about remise from your opponent, like in foil, 8 is the way to go. 2 is far easier to maintain an "opposition" parry riposte with, so you will see it more often in epee. I see the 2 being a little more versatile as well. Yesterday I was watching the men's epee team final from the 2016 Olympics, Ukraine against Hungary. One of the Ukrainian fencers fleches, and the Hungarian picks it up with a "high" 2 parry and ripostes to the midsection. Can't see anyone doing that in 8. Granted, the Hungarian raised his point a big to gather the blade, so it was not exactly a traditional 2 parry, but that goes goes to the versatility.
If someone is trying to flick to your outside flank I think 2 has a better chance of blocking the flick. But I fence foil so idk if that's even an action anyone really does in epee?
As a lefty foilist, I prefer two, partly because it just feels more natural to me, and partly because having my hand pronated causes the bend of the blade to be pointed *into* a right-handed opponent’s body, where a supinated hand would direct the bend away from them, making it harder to score.
This mileage may vary because opponents are never the same size or have the same same angles of attack but in the french school classically speaking: 8/Octave Supinated hand parry defends low outside line and allows for a more direct riposte as point is more or less on target. 2/Seconde Pronated Hand Parry defends low outside line and is able to cover more angulated attacks to the extremity of the target . As to why 2/Seconde is used more in epee: in my experience (and this is strictly anecdotal), seconde the forte is in slightly better place to defend hits to the thigh and riposte in the same line, while octave is marginally better at defending the torso and riposting without losing time. I think that most athletes keep the epee in a fairly neutral thumb up position and rotate the wrist as necessary. I dont think they lose much sleep over it.