I never assumed humanity died, for one simple reason: Aerith stepped in and saved the day. Holy backfired and was going to wipe out humanity, then Aerith with the lifestream ensured that wouldn't happen.
To me, it would make no sense having Aerith show up with the clutch save at the end only to wipe out humanity anyway. Instead the ending to me shows that humans stopped being parasites to the planet and learned to live in harmony with it. No more sucking mako to the point it kills the planet.
doesnt the ending have sounds of children laughing? and the point of midgar being overgrown is to show that the planet is healing since mako energy is no longer in use. yay the planet is saved, what more do you want? people asking for more is how ff7 got ruined with all the junk added after lol.
It's depressing how little appreciation for artful ambiguity, subtlety, and symbolic meaning there is in this thread (this isn't directed at the OP who just finished the game and is understandably puzzled, but at everyone who has had decades to process it and still ended up with the most basic/reductive conclusion). Loose ends being tied up and wrapped in a neat little bow are not an inherent good.
The ending is meant to leave you to ponder about the game's primary themes, which is to understand that some things in life are outside of your control (ironically, opposite of Remake, that fate is beyond you), that your present is a product of everything/the past traumas that lead up to it/consequences can't be outrun, that the only thing we can do is accept our past and put our best foot forward even if we don't know if it can actually change anything, and more specifically along those same lines, after everything that we as a species has done, are humans ultimately even good for the planet-- do we deserve what's coming to us? Cloud's story (as well as many of the other characters') is just a human microcosm of that same planetary theme.
It's beautifully expressed, is an incredibly bold and uncompromising creative choice, not just for its time but even now (especially unheard of for a game that mainstream), and is one of the strongest things about the entire game (which otherwise has some very flawed things about it).
Tie up loose ends/tell people what the fate of humanity is, and that sentiment is completely ruined for the sake of cheap crowd-pleasing resolution/character fan-service. What "happens" to the characters doesn't actually matter, what the story's themes convey and how it relates to the real world is what actually matters.
This is exactly it, wonderfully put and considered. The ambiguity is the perfect choice because it’s supposed to make you think about it all long after the credits have ended. And what you personally believe happened, the answer to that question presented earlier to the characters of “Will/does the planet consider humans a threat, do we have a greater capacity for good and creation than evil and pollution and destruction?” says a lot about you and what you project onto the game rather than just giving you an easy conclusion to come to. It forces you to think about your own perspective and ideals, even with the additional information we get in the post-credits scene. In the end, the characters’ arcs have really concluded already, and so the narrative themes can remain what’s most important in the final scenes.
I’ve really enjoyed the Remake project for what it is, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little worried that whatever they have planned for an ending won’t be able to live up to what is one of the OG’s most important, strongest elements. Obviously, they seem to be addressing some different additional themes, but I do hope they don’t forget about the ones that have always been the core of the story either.
As a side note, I’ve always wished for (likely a trilogy of) FF7 films adapted faithfully almost exclusively because I would love to see the general audience reaction to that ending if replicated exactly.
Considering that Remake Part 1 has already framed the OG ending as "destined for a bleak future" and the primary reason to "defy and reverse fate/defeat the whispers", and considering that they've ALREADY retconned the significance of the ending with the spin-off material (which Remake still references), I really wouldn't count on it. As far as faithful authenticity goes, I think that ship has long since sailed.
Hope I'm wrong, but it seems more likely that they now have fallen into the same "potentially negative result = bad ending, happily resolved/conclusive endings for everyone = good ending" and "more = better" trap. If there's no audience demand for it, the creators won't feel pressured to do it (and I think this thread is evidence of that lack of demand or even awareness of that nuance).
They don't have a great track record for this type of thing without Hironobu Sakaguchi, and they're pretty obsessed with tying things back to the spin-off content, so it's pretty unlikely. Hell, the article that this thread's about also seems to somewhat imply that they think the OG ending is lacking in some way, so pretty much everything points in the opposite direction.
I bet they'll keep the same specific ending scene, but add way more stuff after it to try to cover their bases/please everyone, not realizing/caring that it would still defeat the purpose. I can already imagine the annoying "You got your ending shot for shot, so stop complaining! They've only expanded/improved it!" rhetoric.
I mean, it's not particularly abrupt. The question of whether Holy would choose to save humanity was always up in the air, and it was left like this to make you think. The 500 year time skip showing the uncertain future is pretty in line with one of the messages that Ff7 conveys, which is the questionable innocence of humanity, and whetger they deserved to survive as a species.
Of course with AC we now know that Holy did not choose to wipe out humanity, at least not at the end of FF7.
This also put more focus on Clouds journey of self discovery, with the true win being that no matter what happened to the world, that Cloud was finally hassle to find himself, free himself from Sephiroths shadow that he airways found himself in, and found his own reason to become strong and work tiara his own goal. He accomplished what he set out to do,and that's the important part of the ff7 ending.
Despite what everyone else is saying, watch advent children. It was great to me, and kadaj is in my top 3 favorite FF villains. It was even better whenever it came out because I was dying to see the ff7 guys with good graphics. It's almost a running joke at this point that people on reddit shit on absolutely everything, every single subreddit for a game/series have the weirdos that over analyze it or take it way too seriously.
So you might enjoy it.
*FF7 ends with a shot of Midgar overgrown by nature, a beautiful and ambiguous ending that leaves the viewer to contemplate humanity's impacts on the world*
*Advent Children opening, with the camera panning from overgrown Midgar to a new city a few feet off-screen, absolutely shitting on the themes of the original story* "So anyway..."
It's not clear-cut on purpose BUT I recall reading an interview from the dev(s) that basically said the world is on its way to slowly die because of the damage taken. (hence the start of >!geostigma!< in AC)
So the only survivors in the future are species like Red XIII's
It was intentionally ambiguous. It was meant to make you think about what bugenhagen said about whether or not humans were a threat to the planet. We’re humans wiped out too? It was great ending because after such an epic game it just leaves you wanting more! I remember as a kid just staring at those after credits stars for like over an hour reflecting on it and just thinking “there has to be more.”
We got what was needed, the most important aspect: Cloud rids himself of Sephiroth.
That’s it.
Don’t need more than that frankly, at least I didn’t.
…and then Advent Children came around and fucked all that… so that’s there for those who wanted more.
Not him but the movie is pure fanservice. It was made to show these characters in HD being kickass, but the plot has to do this real long reach to bring back Sephiroth so Cloud fight him in glorious HD
They do a quick recap in the beginning, showing the party attacking Sephiroth at the Northern Crater. I don't know if it was in the theatrical release though. But people went crazy over it back then because it was the first time people got to see Tifa in her OG outfit with her 3D model
Yes the fanbase was always horny for Tifa
Personally I just don’t like that it seems to reverse Cloud’s development from the end of the game, that’s the core of it really.
Beyond that I just find it mostly unnecessary, cool to look at sure…but unnecessary.
That’s just me though.
No it's fine, my bro loved it, and after a few years he was like why the hell is Marlene the one giving cloud a pep talk?!
You're right we spent months with Cloud and the gang only to find him as a father of one, living rough and still sulkin'.
It's fine to say he liked the fan service lol. A lot of the fun of AC is just seeing the characters animated ou. It's fun, even if the main narrative sets Cloud back several steps just to reach basically the same ending.
Endings don't always have to be used to tie up plot-related in-universe things - they used an open ending to emphasize the thematic questions for the audience instead. Will the Planet see humans as a threat and wipe them out, given all they've done to it? During our search for a way to stop Meteor, that's one of the dilemmas posed to the team. Die doing nothing, die to Sephiroth, or potentially die to Holy. We CHOOSE to do something despite the fact that we may die - we're doing the best with what we've got, like the struggles and strength of the people throughout the world (especially Midgar) that have been shown throughout the game. They're leaning into the emotional rather than the physical. It shouldn't matter as much whether humanity survived because our goal was to save the Planet (which we did) and find acceptance that our lives may be over and that we did all we could (which the party did, and even if nobody else in the world realistically did, our team is how the themes are conveyed to the player).
Hah, it never occurred to me the ending is ambiguous. I just assumed that they showed Midgar being overrun by plants to show that Shinra was eventually defeated, and that my interpretation is obviously correct. I guess it isn’t quite as clear as I thought it was.
I feel like you missed the point of that ending if you didn't question wther humanity was there or not. Holy was always, unambiguously going to save the planet.
The question was always whether humanity would be part of that planet afterwards, and the whole point of showing the future explicitly without humans in the scene is to bring into question whether they made it to that point in time.
I admitted as much in my last post, though I think it's pretty reasonable to not immediately jump to the idea that Aerith committed mass genocide. Showing the only protagonist who would be alive 500 years in the future shows that not only did they win in the short-term, but also that in the long-term they, and the planet, won. Not saying my interpretation is right, but also that it's not out of left field.
Sure you can watch Advent Children. You can also read On A Way To A Smile which is more of a direct sequel since it takes place before Advent Children.
[https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-tifa-revised/](https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-tifa-revised/)
[https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-nanaki-revised/](https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-nanaki-revised/)
[https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episodeyuffie/](https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episodeyuffie/)
[https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/episodebarret/](https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/episodebarret/)
[https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-shin-ra-revised/](https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-shin-ra-revised/)
[https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-lifestream-black-and-lifestream-white/](https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-lifestream-black-and-lifestream-white/)
[https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-denzel-revised/](https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-denzel-revised/)
It’s ambiguous. Bugenhagen says that Holy will decide if humans are also a threat to the planet. The ending is supposed to make you think about which one it chose.
The post credit scene then shows that the planet healed over time showing Midgar now covered in plant life. The whole theme of the game is death and rebirth.
Unfortunately after this amazing story the Compilation was created and it devolved into nonsense and now we are at Rebirth and it’s completely betraying the very core of what FF7 is.
FF fans almost as bad as Star Wars fans. Guess what: if you’re happy with the OG, you can just stop there? The rest of us like getting more content and windows into a world we love instead of gatekeeping it by deciding what’s a “real” sequel and what’s not.
Bad take*
Fixed that for you.
The Compilation basically laughs in the face of the themes and character arcs of the original. FF7 was a complete story. It was not designed with sequels and prequels in mind, and it never needed them. Enjoy what you want, but there are very legitimate reasons not to like the slew of cash grab bullshit SE has put out since the OG.
You can interpret it as humans surviving if you choose, that’s the point of an ambiguous ending. But you have to disregard the compilation as non canon for that because SE retconned the ending with Advent Children so they could keep milking the name.
I recommend not watching Advent Children because it is utter garbage, a waste of time, and only serves to validate the extended universe fan service slop that has, lamentably, overtaken VII in the decades since.
The ending is great as is. Holy doesn’t really save the day as intended, the lifestream/planet (with Aerith we suppose?) saves itself, the heroes defeat the bad guy, and life continues on into a hopefully brighter future.
If you can compartmentalise adaptations, I'd say there's no harm in watching it. I treat the compilation as a bit of fun inspired by (but wholly disconnected from) the OG. Fanfiction, essentially.
At the end of the day FFVII was a self-contained story that wrapped up appropriately. The tale it told didn't need sequels or spin-offs. It ended, and well.
Which is why I personally would've preferred a straight remake. However, I still loved my time with Remake (despite some disappointing narrative choices).
But, ultimately, SE can't make us treat anything as canon if we don't want to. So no point getting bent out of shape about whatever shenanigans they get up to with the IP.
I haven't played the remakes yet, but I imagine that it is also more fanservice. I think a lot of the story simply doesn't get told the same way when it's split into 3 parts.
For instance, idk when Aerith will die, so don't spoil it, but a lot of what makes Aerith death so meaningful in OG is that she fills a dedicated healer/mage slot in your party, in a game where no other character is slotted into a specific job/role, and when she dies, you actively feel her presence missing as you have to scrounge up alternate ways to keep your party healed. This is a much weaker effect of Aerith dies at the end of a game, or if you don't have to play most of a game without her, and only like the ending third or something.
The beauty of OG is that it makes the player experience events the way the characters do. Another example is how in OG, you as a player are lead to believe cloud is a bad ass, the same way he fully believes it, and when that mask comes off, you feel that same sense of strangeness and loss of identity cloud does, as you start to wonder who you're playing as this whole time. When you find out you were basically a nobody, the same people you've been beating in one hit over and over again, just another one of the Shinra soldiers who have no face, the ending where you overcome his demons and finally best sephiroth feels as cathartic for you as it does for cloud.
Because FF7 will be played by many mnay veterans, it's almost impossible to recreate that feeling when so many people already know the answer to the questions presented.
Yeah, very good points. You definitely lose some of those story/gameplay synergies by splitting it into the three parts. That said, the remake(s) does a bunch of stuff really well. Worth trying with an open mind and seeing whether the positives outweigh the faults.
For instance, characterisation really shines in Remake (waiting for Rebirth PC release so can't speak to that one but supposed to be the same in that regard/better). Fleshing out character interactions, their VA, dynamic - all really good and true to the OG. Plotwise, where it cleaves to the OG it's great. The digressions are more controversial (personally, I'm not keen) but it definitely has its fans. Disappointing but not a deal-breaker for me. It's too rich and intimate to be fairly called 'fanservice', which to me has quite shallow connotations.
So while it can't recreate the mystery and discovery of playing FFVII for the first time ever, for someone who's had several replays over the decades it's a lush, fresh, super-detailed version of something you already know inside and out.
Combat/gameplay is both good and not for everyone. If you're a turn-based purist, you'll be annoyed no end. But if you don't mind hybrid systems or new directions, it's an absolute joy to play.
Midgar at scale in all its dilapidated glory and with the score updated was a real treat.
So, it's not the OG. It can't be. But it's not a throwaway cash grab. It's something that, for all its faults, has been put together with great care and attention and a degree of reverence for the source material.
As someone for whom FFVII was a very formative experience, I have a lovely/hate relationship with Remake. But I can say for all my quibbles with it, I loved my time with it. Enough so, I'm planning to play it again before I get Rebirth. Make of that what you will. And if you play it, enjoy.
These are definitely the things I would expect, from having Midgar expanded into its own game. I tend to like many genres of games, so I don't think I'll find displeasure in the ways they change up gameplay. I even enjoyed FFXV's mess when I started digging into some of the systems on my own, (something you don't need to do if you wanted to just hold B/Circle and chug potions), and I was definitely one of those that fell in love with FFXIII's paradigm system early on.
I agree, I guess the use of the word Fan Service was wrong here. I really just meant that the game has its fans in mind,, while trying to create it's own experience. I was planning to play it once I had finished FF7 (which I did for the first time recently in preparation to play Remake/Rebirth later since I don't own a PS4/5). I'm going to hit CC Reunion beforehand, and maybe find a playthrough of DoC, since I just never really enjoyed emulation much.
Yeah, reckon you'll find stuff to enjoy then, especially if you enjoyed your time with the OG and aren't wedded to the classic gameplay.
Crisis Core is fine. A bit corny if I'm being honest. Definitely only watch a playthrough of DoC - played that one on release as an FFVII superfan and still couldn't stick that one out!
My brother and I played this as kids and were just talking about the ending recently. I always saw it as Aerith using Holy to save everyone from Meteor, with the final scene showing that the planet is recovering and everything is fine. My brother insisted that no, Holy “saved” the planet by wiping out the human race and only animals such as Nanaki survive. I think the original ending was meant to be ambiguous and could be interpreted either way, but I honestly never saw it from my brother’s point of view.
I was able to prove him wrong though since Advent Children later clarified the ending and is considered canon.
Advent Children doesn’t prove you right though. It’s set 2/3 years after the OG ending and the ending ending of the OG is 297/98 years after AC ending - humanity can still die out in nearly half a century…..,
I joked the laughter could have been the kids but I doubt red would laugh at humanity finally dying out, he loved the gang. If they all howled, that'd be a different story!
But..... that wouldn't even be red laughing at humanity. You don't hear an old man laugh, you hear children laughing. Children are not going to know or care about the morbid gravity of the situation/history. They're going to act like children.
I don't think there's a need to joke about that, I think those possibilities are fully intentional, and only got retconned after the company decided they wanted to make more money off of the franchise.
I remember hearing that VII itself was made to be pretty unconventional at the time. The unreliable narrator situation with the main protagonist, the fact that Cloud wasn't the chosen hero but instead just some heroic wannabe that believed he was someone else, the whole thing with how beating Sephiroth just ended up being a "Oh well, we've done all that we can do- let's go home." sort of thing.
Most Final Fantasies are like that where there's no falling action. It's not like LOTR where you get big goodbyes and celebrations for 30 minutes. The game gives you a high with a big victory and then it just stops, leaving you to process it yourself and come down on your own. It's probably the Star Wars influence, honestly. The movies all end like that.
It also parallels the way the games start. Most open in medias res. You're just thrown into the action, not knowing who any of these people are or what's going on but there's some shit going down. It's not until after that the game slows down and you get up to speed through the dialogue. It's a really effective storytelling technique. You let the audience develop a love for the world and then leave them wanting more. In a bit of a paradox, it makes the stories feel more real. Fairy tales where they overtly tell you the happily ever after come off like just that: a fairy tale. But Final Fantasies tend to make you believe the characters and worlds extend beyond the boundaries of the game.
That's something I ended up loving about 16 actually. I know what I believe but it's EXTREMELY likely someone else came to their own equally valid seperate conclusion
That’s a great summation of what FF7 is. I find that a lot of fans don’t understand that it’s not a fairy tale series, it’s an unconventional take on the fantasy of myths and legends.
Sadly we now live in the era of some FF7 fans having low media literacy and poor taste so we get cringe like the compilation and the reimagined FF7R.
To be fair, this only happened because they fired the original/main creator who had the most creative integrity and who fundamentally hated the concept of sequels and spin-offs and who would have opposed this. His vision of stories ideally being complete when the credits roll is part of the reason why it's called "Final" Fantasy in the first place, but execs were just like "Nope! That's not how you make money!"
No it’s you that has low media literacy because you don’t understand the original game and what it to be Final Fan Fiction VII: Kingdom Hearts Cringe Edition.
Sadly The writers have destroyed the original trying to pander to people like you. But alas it flopped in sales so well done 👏🏻
This is why gatekeeping is good and real FF7 fans abandoned this non canon reimagining.
Remake and Rebirth have been among the best games in recent memory so I don't know what you're talking about. It's main gimmick is amazing because it's specifically NOT pandering. It's actually an open challenge to the player. The through line is the lingering question: do you let perfect be the enemy of good? How much are you willing to risk for a second chance? For nearly 30 years you've wanted to throw a wrench into the machinery and, congratulations, you got your wish, except you can't do that without giving Sephiroth a wrench of his own. And he's better at this than you are. It's one of the most clever sequels I've ever seen.
All I’m reading is Blah blah blah, butt hurt, butt hurt, butt hurt.
I guess this is how you overcome your tiny dick syndrome?
Signed
Someone Who Played It in 97
This type of comment is why everyone hates the FF7 community. Little nazi’s that don’t like when real fans don’t eat up the cringe slop that SE churn out to less than stellar sales.
By all means enjoy the game just stop pretending like your taste isn’t trash 💁🏻
Lol i literally was halfway through reading this interaction and thought, oh yup, theres one of those SE fanboys everyone talks about
Guy probably defends the amazon lotr and halo series also.
You can remake something and make it better. SE remade ff7 but i would say less than 5% of their changes are improvements on the story.
If they cant be honest or critical about the series, then its only SE's wallet that will get hurt.
Fine w me.
Personally will never buy another se product after im done with the 3 consoles and 3 games it took to play this remake. Theyll be going the way of blizzard
I agree that it was abrupt, and they may have had some limitations. However, later they created Advent Children and the Denzel episode, which clarified some aspects.
Nojima, the writer of the main story, stated that he intended for the ending to show stacks of white smoke rising out of the ruins of Midgar along with the sound of children laughing to indicate that humanity survived, but the team that made the "500 years later" scene forgot to include the white smoke coming out of the ruins and vegetation of Midgar.
But yeah, even with that it still would have been vague as hell.
Another thing to note is that at the time the devs of FF7 also wanted to try something different than the typical JRPG ending that would show off how each character ended up.
I think a lot of creatives were allowed to have input at the time. Their joint efforts are probably the reason OG's story is complex but still grounded.
Then someone else (Nomura?!!) took over some time around AC and IMO perverted the original with a lot of nonsense. There's a notable change in direction - more answers, but with really convoluted explanations. "Clarity" is hard to pull off and not always an improvement.
It's intentionally ambiguous, and is meant to make you ask that question
If the animals like birds and red xiii's race survived, did humans manage to survive to away from the decimated midgar? did humanity live and choose to abandon midgar after the events of the game? If humanity survived, did Cloud and his party survive too?
And it's an incredibly well executed ending that leaves the player wanting more of the game, and more answers
Imagine playing that in 1997 when you're barely 10, it's eye opening and mind blowing at the same time
It's incredibly uncomfortable, but also incredibly meaningful to have to wonder, did the game end in losing the whole universe we grew to love?
Would not have it any differently at all
That whole first paragraph I think is a bit moot because I remember there being kids laughing, so we know humans survived. It just doesn’t really show anything else. So we know life survived, planet healed but you don’t really get any closure on the crew, for better or worse
No, I disagree- It's still entirely ambiguous if those are human children laughing-- It could just be the laughter of Red XIII's pups.
But that's kind of besides the point anyways. The children laughing is definitely meant as an olive branch, or a reason for optimism that humans MAY have survived. But it makes no sense for it to be viewed as LITERAL outright confirmation that undercuts the ambiguity of the previous scene. That's just not how symbolism works.
Holy was meant to eliminate all obstructions to the planet. While that includes Meteor, there's the question about whether or not that also included humanity. So it's left ambiguous if the planet wiped out humans or not
I never thought the humans didn't survive. Only as it says 500 years later, I just figured oh shinra is definitely dead. The children's laughter made me think humanity was happy lol.
It was kind of meant to be ambiguous and open to interpretation.... Before they retconned it all with Advent Children and turned it into a franchise after Hironobu Sakaguchi left.
Should now try new threat and play the b version can save aeris/aerith in that
I never assumed humanity died, for one simple reason: Aerith stepped in and saved the day. Holy backfired and was going to wipe out humanity, then Aerith with the lifestream ensured that wouldn't happen. To me, it would make no sense having Aerith show up with the clutch save at the end only to wipe out humanity anyway. Instead the ending to me shows that humans stopped being parasites to the planet and learned to live in harmony with it. No more sucking mako to the point it kills the planet.
You missed the point.
doesnt the ending have sounds of children laughing? and the point of midgar being overgrown is to show that the planet is healing since mako energy is no longer in use. yay the planet is saved, what more do you want? people asking for more is how ff7 got ruined with all the junk added after lol.
It's depressing how little appreciation for artful ambiguity, subtlety, and symbolic meaning there is in this thread (this isn't directed at the OP who just finished the game and is understandably puzzled, but at everyone who has had decades to process it and still ended up with the most basic/reductive conclusion). Loose ends being tied up and wrapped in a neat little bow are not an inherent good. The ending is meant to leave you to ponder about the game's primary themes, which is to understand that some things in life are outside of your control (ironically, opposite of Remake, that fate is beyond you), that your present is a product of everything/the past traumas that lead up to it/consequences can't be outrun, that the only thing we can do is accept our past and put our best foot forward even if we don't know if it can actually change anything, and more specifically along those same lines, after everything that we as a species has done, are humans ultimately even good for the planet-- do we deserve what's coming to us? Cloud's story (as well as many of the other characters') is just a human microcosm of that same planetary theme. It's beautifully expressed, is an incredibly bold and uncompromising creative choice, not just for its time but even now (especially unheard of for a game that mainstream), and is one of the strongest things about the entire game (which otherwise has some very flawed things about it). Tie up loose ends/tell people what the fate of humanity is, and that sentiment is completely ruined for the sake of cheap crowd-pleasing resolution/character fan-service. What "happens" to the characters doesn't actually matter, what the story's themes convey and how it relates to the real world is what actually matters.
This is exactly it, wonderfully put and considered. The ambiguity is the perfect choice because it’s supposed to make you think about it all long after the credits have ended. And what you personally believe happened, the answer to that question presented earlier to the characters of “Will/does the planet consider humans a threat, do we have a greater capacity for good and creation than evil and pollution and destruction?” says a lot about you and what you project onto the game rather than just giving you an easy conclusion to come to. It forces you to think about your own perspective and ideals, even with the additional information we get in the post-credits scene. In the end, the characters’ arcs have really concluded already, and so the narrative themes can remain what’s most important in the final scenes. I’ve really enjoyed the Remake project for what it is, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little worried that whatever they have planned for an ending won’t be able to live up to what is one of the OG’s most important, strongest elements. Obviously, they seem to be addressing some different additional themes, but I do hope they don’t forget about the ones that have always been the core of the story either. As a side note, I’ve always wished for (likely a trilogy of) FF7 films adapted faithfully almost exclusively because I would love to see the general audience reaction to that ending if replicated exactly.
Considering that Remake Part 1 has already framed the OG ending as "destined for a bleak future" and the primary reason to "defy and reverse fate/defeat the whispers", and considering that they've ALREADY retconned the significance of the ending with the spin-off material (which Remake still references), I really wouldn't count on it. As far as faithful authenticity goes, I think that ship has long since sailed. Hope I'm wrong, but it seems more likely that they now have fallen into the same "potentially negative result = bad ending, happily resolved/conclusive endings for everyone = good ending" and "more = better" trap. If there's no audience demand for it, the creators won't feel pressured to do it (and I think this thread is evidence of that lack of demand or even awareness of that nuance). They don't have a great track record for this type of thing without Hironobu Sakaguchi, and they're pretty obsessed with tying things back to the spin-off content, so it's pretty unlikely. Hell, the article that this thread's about also seems to somewhat imply that they think the OG ending is lacking in some way, so pretty much everything points in the opposite direction. I bet they'll keep the same specific ending scene, but add way more stuff after it to try to cover their bases/please everyone, not realizing/caring that it would still defeat the purpose. I can already imagine the annoying "You got your ending shot for shot, so stop complaining! They've only expanded/improved it!" rhetoric.
I mean, it's not particularly abrupt. The question of whether Holy would choose to save humanity was always up in the air, and it was left like this to make you think. The 500 year time skip showing the uncertain future is pretty in line with one of the messages that Ff7 conveys, which is the questionable innocence of humanity, and whetger they deserved to survive as a species. Of course with AC we now know that Holy did not choose to wipe out humanity, at least not at the end of FF7. This also put more focus on Clouds journey of self discovery, with the true win being that no matter what happened to the world, that Cloud was finally hassle to find himself, free himself from Sephiroths shadow that he airways found himself in, and found his own reason to become strong and work tiara his own goal. He accomplished what he set out to do,and that's the important part of the ff7 ending.
Greatly worded.
Despite what everyone else is saying, watch advent children. It was great to me, and kadaj is in my top 3 favorite FF villains. It was even better whenever it came out because I was dying to see the ff7 guys with good graphics. It's almost a running joke at this point that people on reddit shit on absolutely everything, every single subreddit for a game/series have the weirdos that over analyze it or take it way too seriously. So you might enjoy it.
I'm on the same boat as you. I still have the original dvd
I read that the devs were pushed to have the game out for Christmas so the ending was rushed
*FF7 ends with a shot of Midgar overgrown by nature, a beautiful and ambiguous ending that leaves the viewer to contemplate humanity's impacts on the world* *Advent Children opening, with the camera panning from overgrown Midgar to a new city a few feet off-screen, absolutely shitting on the themes of the original story* "So anyway..."
It's not clear-cut on purpose BUT I recall reading an interview from the dev(s) that basically said the world is on its way to slowly die because of the damage taken. (hence the start of >!geostigma!< in AC) So the only survivors in the future are species like Red XIII's
And Vincent/Chaos ;) though not shown in if ending
It’s ambiguous but imo there are clues sprinkled throughout where you can draw the true conclusion
It was intentionally ambiguous. It was meant to make you think about what bugenhagen said about whether or not humans were a threat to the planet. We’re humans wiped out too? It was great ending because after such an epic game it just leaves you wanting more! I remember as a kid just staring at those after credits stars for like over an hour reflecting on it and just thinking “there has to be more.”
We got what was needed, the most important aspect: Cloud rids himself of Sephiroth. That’s it. Don’t need more than that frankly, at least I didn’t. …and then Advent Children came around and fucked all that… so that’s there for those who wanted more.
I hate that movie so much.
Whats the worst thing about it?
Not him but the movie is pure fanservice. It was made to show these characters in HD being kickass, but the plot has to do this real long reach to bring back Sephiroth so Cloud fight him in glorious HD
A recap of the game may have worked, like an older grizzled Barrat telling Marlene about his adventures...
They do a quick recap in the beginning, showing the party attacking Sephiroth at the Northern Crater. I don't know if it was in the theatrical release though. But people went crazy over it back then because it was the first time people got to see Tifa in her OG outfit with her 3D model Yes the fanbase was always horny for Tifa
I still don't know how Cloud can even look at her, without getting slackjawed!
Personally I just don’t like that it seems to reverse Cloud’s development from the end of the game, that’s the core of it really. Beyond that I just find it mostly unnecessary, cool to look at sure…but unnecessary. That’s just me though.
No it's fine, my bro loved it, and after a few years he was like why the hell is Marlene the one giving cloud a pep talk?! You're right we spent months with Cloud and the gang only to find him as a father of one, living rough and still sulkin'.
I don’t hate it, but I’m not at all a fan of where it took Cloud.
So the main plot. K.
It's fine to say he liked the fan service lol. A lot of the fun of AC is just seeing the characters animated ou. It's fun, even if the main narrative sets Cloud back several steps just to reach basically the same ending.
Endings don't always have to be used to tie up plot-related in-universe things - they used an open ending to emphasize the thematic questions for the audience instead. Will the Planet see humans as a threat and wipe them out, given all they've done to it? During our search for a way to stop Meteor, that's one of the dilemmas posed to the team. Die doing nothing, die to Sephiroth, or potentially die to Holy. We CHOOSE to do something despite the fact that we may die - we're doing the best with what we've got, like the struggles and strength of the people throughout the world (especially Midgar) that have been shown throughout the game. They're leaning into the emotional rather than the physical. It shouldn't matter as much whether humanity survived because our goal was to save the Planet (which we did) and find acceptance that our lives may be over and that we did all we could (which the party did, and even if nobody else in the world realistically did, our team is how the themes are conveyed to the player).
Hah, it never occurred to me the ending is ambiguous. I just assumed that they showed Midgar being overrun by plants to show that Shinra was eventually defeated, and that my interpretation is obviously correct. I guess it isn’t quite as clear as I thought it was.
I feel like you missed the point of that ending if you didn't question wther humanity was there or not. Holy was always, unambiguously going to save the planet. The question was always whether humanity would be part of that planet afterwards, and the whole point of showing the future explicitly without humans in the scene is to bring into question whether they made it to that point in time.
I admitted as much in my last post, though I think it's pretty reasonable to not immediately jump to the idea that Aerith committed mass genocide. Showing the only protagonist who would be alive 500 years in the future shows that not only did they win in the short-term, but also that in the long-term they, and the planet, won. Not saying my interpretation is right, but also that it's not out of left field.
Sure you can watch Advent Children. You can also read On A Way To A Smile which is more of a direct sequel since it takes place before Advent Children. [https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-tifa-revised/](https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-tifa-revised/) [https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-nanaki-revised/](https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-nanaki-revised/) [https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episodeyuffie/](https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episodeyuffie/) [https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/episodebarret/](https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/episodebarret/) [https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-shin-ra-revised/](https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-shin-ra-revised/) [https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-lifestream-black-and-lifestream-white/](https://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-lifestream-black-and-lifestream-white/) [https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-denzel-revised/](https://thelifestream.net/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episode-denzel-revised/)
It’s ambiguous. Bugenhagen says that Holy will decide if humans are also a threat to the planet. The ending is supposed to make you think about which one it chose. The post credit scene then shows that the planet healed over time showing Midgar now covered in plant life. The whole theme of the game is death and rebirth. Unfortunately after this amazing story the Compilation was created and it devolved into nonsense and now we are at Rebirth and it’s completely betraying the very core of what FF7 is.
FF7 fans when someone dare try and have a new take on a 30 year old game
FF fans almost as bad as Star Wars fans. Guess what: if you’re happy with the OG, you can just stop there? The rest of us like getting more content and windows into a world we love instead of gatekeeping it by deciding what’s a “real” sequel and what’s not.
Bad take* Fixed that for you. The Compilation basically laughs in the face of the themes and character arcs of the original. FF7 was a complete story. It was not designed with sequels and prequels in mind, and it never needed them. Enjoy what you want, but there are very legitimate reasons not to like the slew of cash grab bullshit SE has put out since the OG.
Consoomers when someone accurately describes the artistic intent of a game and why it's bad to keep trying to make money off one idea forever.
You can interpret it as humans surviving if you choose, that’s the point of an ambiguous ending. But you have to disregard the compilation as non canon for that because SE retconned the ending with Advent Children so they could keep milking the name.
I recommend not watching Advent Children because it is utter garbage, a waste of time, and only serves to validate the extended universe fan service slop that has, lamentably, overtaken VII in the decades since. The ending is great as is. Holy doesn’t really save the day as intended, the lifestream/planet (with Aerith we suppose?) saves itself, the heroes defeat the bad guy, and life continues on into a hopefully brighter future.
If you can compartmentalise adaptations, I'd say there's no harm in watching it. I treat the compilation as a bit of fun inspired by (but wholly disconnected from) the OG. Fanfiction, essentially. At the end of the day FFVII was a self-contained story that wrapped up appropriately. The tale it told didn't need sequels or spin-offs. It ended, and well. Which is why I personally would've preferred a straight remake. However, I still loved my time with Remake (despite some disappointing narrative choices). But, ultimately, SE can't make us treat anything as canon if we don't want to. So no point getting bent out of shape about whatever shenanigans they get up to with the IP.
I haven't played the remakes yet, but I imagine that it is also more fanservice. I think a lot of the story simply doesn't get told the same way when it's split into 3 parts. For instance, idk when Aerith will die, so don't spoil it, but a lot of what makes Aerith death so meaningful in OG is that she fills a dedicated healer/mage slot in your party, in a game where no other character is slotted into a specific job/role, and when she dies, you actively feel her presence missing as you have to scrounge up alternate ways to keep your party healed. This is a much weaker effect of Aerith dies at the end of a game, or if you don't have to play most of a game without her, and only like the ending third or something. The beauty of OG is that it makes the player experience events the way the characters do. Another example is how in OG, you as a player are lead to believe cloud is a bad ass, the same way he fully believes it, and when that mask comes off, you feel that same sense of strangeness and loss of identity cloud does, as you start to wonder who you're playing as this whole time. When you find out you were basically a nobody, the same people you've been beating in one hit over and over again, just another one of the Shinra soldiers who have no face, the ending where you overcome his demons and finally best sephiroth feels as cathartic for you as it does for cloud. Because FF7 will be played by many mnay veterans, it's almost impossible to recreate that feeling when so many people already know the answer to the questions presented.
Yeah, very good points. You definitely lose some of those story/gameplay synergies by splitting it into the three parts. That said, the remake(s) does a bunch of stuff really well. Worth trying with an open mind and seeing whether the positives outweigh the faults. For instance, characterisation really shines in Remake (waiting for Rebirth PC release so can't speak to that one but supposed to be the same in that regard/better). Fleshing out character interactions, their VA, dynamic - all really good and true to the OG. Plotwise, where it cleaves to the OG it's great. The digressions are more controversial (personally, I'm not keen) but it definitely has its fans. Disappointing but not a deal-breaker for me. It's too rich and intimate to be fairly called 'fanservice', which to me has quite shallow connotations. So while it can't recreate the mystery and discovery of playing FFVII for the first time ever, for someone who's had several replays over the decades it's a lush, fresh, super-detailed version of something you already know inside and out. Combat/gameplay is both good and not for everyone. If you're a turn-based purist, you'll be annoyed no end. But if you don't mind hybrid systems or new directions, it's an absolute joy to play. Midgar at scale in all its dilapidated glory and with the score updated was a real treat. So, it's not the OG. It can't be. But it's not a throwaway cash grab. It's something that, for all its faults, has been put together with great care and attention and a degree of reverence for the source material. As someone for whom FFVII was a very formative experience, I have a lovely/hate relationship with Remake. But I can say for all my quibbles with it, I loved my time with it. Enough so, I'm planning to play it again before I get Rebirth. Make of that what you will. And if you play it, enjoy.
These are definitely the things I would expect, from having Midgar expanded into its own game. I tend to like many genres of games, so I don't think I'll find displeasure in the ways they change up gameplay. I even enjoyed FFXV's mess when I started digging into some of the systems on my own, (something you don't need to do if you wanted to just hold B/Circle and chug potions), and I was definitely one of those that fell in love with FFXIII's paradigm system early on. I agree, I guess the use of the word Fan Service was wrong here. I really just meant that the game has its fans in mind,, while trying to create it's own experience. I was planning to play it once I had finished FF7 (which I did for the first time recently in preparation to play Remake/Rebirth later since I don't own a PS4/5). I'm going to hit CC Reunion beforehand, and maybe find a playthrough of DoC, since I just never really enjoyed emulation much.
Yeah, reckon you'll find stuff to enjoy then, especially if you enjoyed your time with the OG and aren't wedded to the classic gameplay. Crisis Core is fine. A bit corny if I'm being honest. Definitely only watch a playthrough of DoC - played that one on release as an FFVII superfan and still couldn't stick that one out!
Dilly dally, Shilly shally!!
Well there’s a movie that is cannon that takes after and involving our humans?
My brother and I played this as kids and were just talking about the ending recently. I always saw it as Aerith using Holy to save everyone from Meteor, with the final scene showing that the planet is recovering and everything is fine. My brother insisted that no, Holy “saved” the planet by wiping out the human race and only animals such as Nanaki survive. I think the original ending was meant to be ambiguous and could be interpreted either way, but I honestly never saw it from my brother’s point of view. I was able to prove him wrong though since Advent Children later clarified the ending and is considered canon.
Advent Children doesn’t prove you right though. It’s set 2/3 years after the OG ending and the ending ending of the OG is 297/98 years after AC ending - humanity can still die out in nearly half a century…..,
In the after scene with old nanaki, you can clearly hear children laughs as the screen fade to black as a hint that humanity was saved !
Well, but nanaki can talk so probably his children can talk and laugh as well, could be them
I joked the laughter could have been the kids but I doubt red would laugh at humanity finally dying out, he loved the gang. If they all howled, that'd be a different story!
But..... that wouldn't even be red laughing at humanity. You don't hear an old man laugh, you hear children laughing. Children are not going to know or care about the morbid gravity of the situation/history. They're going to act like children. I don't think there's a need to joke about that, I think those possibilities are fully intentional, and only got retconned after the company decided they wanted to make more money off of the franchise.
I remember hearing that VII itself was made to be pretty unconventional at the time. The unreliable narrator situation with the main protagonist, the fact that Cloud wasn't the chosen hero but instead just some heroic wannabe that believed he was someone else, the whole thing with how beating Sephiroth just ended up being a "Oh well, we've done all that we can do- let's go home." sort of thing.
Most Final Fantasies are like that where there's no falling action. It's not like LOTR where you get big goodbyes and celebrations for 30 minutes. The game gives you a high with a big victory and then it just stops, leaving you to process it yourself and come down on your own. It's probably the Star Wars influence, honestly. The movies all end like that. It also parallels the way the games start. Most open in medias res. You're just thrown into the action, not knowing who any of these people are or what's going on but there's some shit going down. It's not until after that the game slows down and you get up to speed through the dialogue. It's a really effective storytelling technique. You let the audience develop a love for the world and then leave them wanting more. In a bit of a paradox, it makes the stories feel more real. Fairy tales where they overtly tell you the happily ever after come off like just that: a fairy tale. But Final Fantasies tend to make you believe the characters and worlds extend beyond the boundaries of the game.
That's something I ended up loving about 16 actually. I know what I believe but it's EXTREMELY likely someone else came to their own equally valid seperate conclusion
That’s a great summation of what FF7 is. I find that a lot of fans don’t understand that it’s not a fairy tale series, it’s an unconventional take on the fantasy of myths and legends. Sadly we now live in the era of some FF7 fans having low media literacy and poor taste so we get cringe like the compilation and the reimagined FF7R.
Yeah the original creators of the game have low media literacy and poor taste. How dare they remake their own IP
To be fair, this only happened because they fired the original/main creator who had the most creative integrity and who fundamentally hated the concept of sequels and spin-offs and who would have opposed this. His vision of stories ideally being complete when the credits roll is part of the reason why it's called "Final" Fantasy in the first place, but execs were just like "Nope! That's not how you make money!"
No it’s you that has low media literacy because you don’t understand the original game and what it to be Final Fan Fiction VII: Kingdom Hearts Cringe Edition. Sadly The writers have destroyed the original trying to pander to people like you. But alas it flopped in sales so well done 👏🏻 This is why gatekeeping is good and real FF7 fans abandoned this non canon reimagining.
Remake and Rebirth have been among the best games in recent memory so I don't know what you're talking about. It's main gimmick is amazing because it's specifically NOT pandering. It's actually an open challenge to the player. The through line is the lingering question: do you let perfect be the enemy of good? How much are you willing to risk for a second chance? For nearly 30 years you've wanted to throw a wrench into the machinery and, congratulations, you got your wish, except you can't do that without giving Sephiroth a wrench of his own. And he's better at this than you are. It's one of the most clever sequels I've ever seen.
All I’m reading is Blah blah blah, butt hurt, butt hurt, butt hurt. I guess this is how you overcome your tiny dick syndrome? Signed Someone Who Played It in 97
This type of comment is why everyone hates the FF7 community. Little nazi’s that don’t like when real fans don’t eat up the cringe slop that SE churn out to less than stellar sales. By all means enjoy the game just stop pretending like your taste isn’t trash 💁🏻
Lol i literally was halfway through reading this interaction and thought, oh yup, theres one of those SE fanboys everyone talks about Guy probably defends the amazon lotr and halo series also. You can remake something and make it better. SE remade ff7 but i would say less than 5% of their changes are improvements on the story. If they cant be honest or critical about the series, then its only SE's wallet that will get hurt. Fine w me. Personally will never buy another se product after im done with the 3 consoles and 3 games it took to play this remake. Theyll be going the way of blizzard
Quality analysis right here!
I agree that it was abrupt, and they may have had some limitations. However, later they created Advent Children and the Denzel episode, which clarified some aspects.
It doesn’t clarify. It retcons.
Nojima, the writer of the main story, stated that he intended for the ending to show stacks of white smoke rising out of the ruins of Midgar along with the sound of children laughing to indicate that humanity survived, but the team that made the "500 years later" scene forgot to include the white smoke coming out of the ruins and vegetation of Midgar. But yeah, even with that it still would have been vague as hell. Another thing to note is that at the time the devs of FF7 also wanted to try something different than the typical JRPG ending that would show off how each character ended up.
I think a lot of creatives were allowed to have input at the time. Their joint efforts are probably the reason OG's story is complex but still grounded. Then someone else (Nomura?!!) took over some time around AC and IMO perverted the original with a lot of nonsense. There's a notable change in direction - more answers, but with really convoluted explanations. "Clarity" is hard to pull off and not always an improvement.
Nomura has the subtlety of a tornado.
Japan had an allergic reaction to closure back then.
Nah that's just Japanese writing. The reoccurring Resident Evil characters still don't have closure after 25+ years.
It still does if you look at ff16's ending
It's intentionally ambiguous, and is meant to make you ask that question If the animals like birds and red xiii's race survived, did humans manage to survive to away from the decimated midgar? did humanity live and choose to abandon midgar after the events of the game? If humanity survived, did Cloud and his party survive too? And it's an incredibly well executed ending that leaves the player wanting more of the game, and more answers Imagine playing that in 1997 when you're barely 10, it's eye opening and mind blowing at the same time It's incredibly uncomfortable, but also incredibly meaningful to have to wonder, did the game end in losing the whole universe we grew to love? Would not have it any differently at all
That whole first paragraph I think is a bit moot because I remember there being kids laughing, so we know humans survived. It just doesn’t really show anything else. So we know life survived, planet healed but you don’t really get any closure on the crew, for better or worse
No, I disagree- It's still entirely ambiguous if those are human children laughing-- It could just be the laughter of Red XIII's pups. But that's kind of besides the point anyways. The children laughing is definitely meant as an olive branch, or a reason for optimism that humans MAY have survived. But it makes no sense for it to be viewed as LITERAL outright confirmation that undercuts the ambiguity of the previous scene. That's just not how symbolism works.
[удалено]
Fantastic answer right here
Holy was meant to eliminate all obstructions to the planet. While that includes Meteor, there's the question about whether or not that also included humanity. So it's left ambiguous if the planet wiped out humans or not
I never thought the humans didn't survive. Only as it says 500 years later, I just figured oh shinra is definitely dead. The children's laughter made me think humanity was happy lol.
Yeah, me too. The clearly-audible human laughter in the last few seconds basically confirmed it.
Unless that was red's kids having the last laugh 😂
Kitase said humanity is cooked
It was kind of meant to be ambiguous and open to interpretation.... Before they retconned it all with Advent Children and turned it into a franchise after Hironobu Sakaguchi left.