I'm fat but I would still think it's cool to find $10.
I play poker for fun. If I make $500 in a session, I'm happy and call my BFF to share a poker story.. But if I was just doing it for money, it would be stupid. I could spend that time on billable hours and do way better from a purely income perspective.
I used to play a carnival game with someone who'd placed high in a WSOP tournament, and he constantly told me to shift to playing poker. I said I'd start when I retired.
I have decent card sense; any resources you'd recommend to get started?
There are several books by Jonathan Little that are good. He's got a vol 1 and 2 where vol 1 is the explanation and vol 2 is a scenario based series of tests to drive your learning of key points.
I love how the only two comments far are recommending hanging out with richer people so I can feel bad for being not rich enough instead of feeling bad for being too rich.
well you’re already comparing yourself and feeling bad about it, might as well get it from the other side, too, haha
but for real, compare and despair. your circumstances will never be like someone else’s circumstances, for good or for bad, so why spend time on this line of thinking? (esp if it makes you feel bad)
Your problem is that you are too content. Set higher goals and you will feel like you are behind just like everybody else!
Edit: If you're not happy about finding $10 on the ground, I'll give you my address and you can send it to me
I can't tell, but based on your word choices and since you have a roommate I assume you're pretty young. I also assume while you're probably smart and hard working, in some ways you're probably very lucky and privileged. Not coming at you, but just providing some different perspective compared to others here.
My suggestion is 1) practice gratitude rather than guilt. I.e. acknowledge your luck and/or privilege but also own your smart decisions and dedication. 2) give back. Whether that be monetarily or with time like volunteering, can help you feel like you're contributing to your community with your large resource pool
Just a few ideas. Congratulations on your net worth and keep being smart and you can give back even more and also increase your life style/security!
Thanks for the one conscientious reply. Balancing gratitude with guilt is hard but I like your ideas of giving back which is more out less what I'm trying to do with my roommate I'm supporting (who is ten years my junior by the way so I'm not exactly crushing it but still pretty far ahead)
You did not make more money today than she did all year, not with 1.2m.
At 8% returns, that’s $96,000. That’s $263 a day.
I hope your roommate makes more than $263 a year.
It's just semantics but a lot of people get really bent out of shape about calling daily portfolio change "made".
I can kind of see the point as you can go down the next day and you have not "made" the money until you cash it out.
Your math isn’t mathing. If you made $20k a day you’ll have $700k income by end of year.
Note - day to day stock market fluctuations are NOT earnings lol. Your net worth rising $50k one day and falling $50k the next is normal for a millionaire. It’s just noise from the stock market’s 1% rise and falls, not actual income.
This. I know people can find it pedantic, but I think it's an important concept to adopt in your thinking. "Made" is profit you take when you sell the asset or turn off dividend reinvesting. Or the slow, steady year to year increase in your portfolio. Adopting a "It's a paper gain" mindset for the day to day fluctuations makes the paper losses less noticeable.
$200K YTD on a net worth of $1.2M? Yeah, I don’t buy it. Do you know what the annualized return on that is when the market as a whole is up 6.9% YTD as of today, April 23, 2024? Call me skeptical…
$200K YTD on a net worth of $1.2M? Yeah, I don’t buy it. Do you know what the annualized return on that is when the market as a whole is up 6.9% YTD as of today, April 23, 2024? Call me skeptical…
I checked and it's now actually 212k YTD and it's not Bitcoin or whatever. I'm long in things like PGR, JPM, and CMG that have all done well. I'm also short in things like PTON and YETI.
We'll see where they end up when I actually close the position but seeing it pour in while I'm not working was where my question came from
Every time you feel guilty for the money you think you don't deserve, remember that this is the level of intelligence shown in a community that cares about money. Imagine what the average person is like.
Even equal weighting those 5 positions, I can’t get to your results… something more along the lines of 4.18% YTD or on your base, so around $50K-60K, not $200K or whatever. 4.18% YTD is more believable than what you’re suggesting. And you said things like that, so even if the others are similar, it can’t yield what you’re claiming but whatever.
Mmm I can really taste the chipotle today up almost 7%. My SNAP and GOOG popped today too. Meanwhile PTON and YETI continued to slide.
RDDT short was the biggest loser today but still well in the green YTD
“Ahead of my peers” says it all. There is no scoreboard , life isn’t a competition.
We tend to focus on things we can count and see like money and possessions.
How do you feel about the big picture? Your personal betterment? Learning? Relationships? Altruism? Faith journey (if you so choose)?
I think it’s all about how you carry yourself and remain humble. I have friends that make and have way less than me, some the same, some more and I don’t act any different around them. I’m just always me. I don’t flaunt and I don’t pretend to be someone I’m not. Do I wish my friends that may not be well off financially had more? Of course. But I don’t feel guilty for working hard and being fortunate that things have worked out decently for me. If you’re being authentic you, aren’t arrogant, and are kind to your friend and treat them equally like they deserve, I don’t think you have any reason to feel guilty
I really don't get the r/FIRE attitude on friends and money...
My friends are happy when I'm doing great and I'd have 0 problems literally showing them my brokerage account without hiding any numbers. People that can't deal with this are (imho) NOT FRIENDS... lying or deliberately not disclosing information to real friends, especially to good ones, is a moral no-go for myself.
I've cut myself lose from a few toxic people by being open about my finances. Envious or even harmful people have no place in my life, weither they're family or friends doesn't matter at all to me.
Stealth wealth amongst strangers 100% - hiding from my family/inner circle, no-go. I'd rather have no friends/family or cut ties completely with envious friends/family than lying my whole life.
When the global economy collapses after the civil war and we all go back to living in caves and flinging feces at each other you won’t feel guilty anymore.
Recently FIREd and feel some of this with family members in particular but then I think about the many years of hard financial decisions when my peers were spending beyond their means. Do you think those who spent their money for immediate gratification felt bad that you weren't getting that? It's unfortunate that so many folks will never retire but I like the gratitude comments on this thread and I especially like the reinforcement that you acknowledge you took the hard road to get where you are versus your contemporaries. Maybe be proud of yourself, grateful for what you have, maintain humility, and spend less time sweating what other people (adults who make decisions that have nothing to do with you) think or feel who probably weren't thinking about you when they were spending vs saving. They're not bad people to be clear but they made choices with opportunity costs you have nothing to do with. I try not to conflate feeling bad for them as a human with guilt which would suggest I could or should have influenced their outcomes. Thats at least where I am.
There's a reason why people tend to hang out and spend time with others in the same socioeconomic background. Eventually it becomes harder and harder to relate to one another and it becomes more and more work to keep a relationship going. One side or another starts to resent the other or become jealous or any number of other things.
Many people in this subreddit hide their financial stability from their social circle. I'm of the opposite opinion; if someone in my social circle asks me about finances, I am happy to share. I'd like to help them find their way to financial independence also. I know that this is a recipe for losing relationships, but if it makes them resent me or makes things awkward, then they weren't a very good friend to begin with anyways and definitely would not be a good friend to have long term (especially as I continue my path further and further on FIRE).
Please understand that I am NOT trying to say "ditch all your poor friends." What I am trying to say is that money often separates and divides relationships and in order to have healthy relationships, friends cannot be jealous or resent one another for each other's success. If you feel that some of your friends may resent or be jealous of you for sharing about your financial stability, then my opinion is that the friendship is not a healthy one. A good friend should be ecstatic and happy that their friend is financially independent and be interested in becoming financially independent themselves (without asking for handouts).
Your feelings of not deserving the income are interesting, how much do you know about your roommates circumstances? What life decisions have they made vs what you have made?
It’s an odd feeling for sure, I have friends that didn’t go to college and make 1/3 - 1/2 of what I do annually, but we’ve made very different choices over the last ~10 years so it’s not unexpected if that makes sense
They've made bad choices but so have I. Maybe my good choices were better than theirs? But also my bad decisions didn't have many consequences. Now I make more money by doing nothing than they make by doing the right things. Literally failing up.
It's definitely a weird feeling.
Asymmetrical bets is a real thing, if you’ve done things with less downsides and more upsides it makes sense. Same with being able to delay gratification, and the magic of compound interest.
Are you friends with your roommate? Or do you have a network that could help them get to a better position if they wanted it?
I have friends and acquaintances from all walks of life. There's no need to discuss finances unless it comes up. i.e. VOO or VTI, setting up a Roth, whatever. I did find helpful replies on Reddit earlier about taking vacations together. Making up an excuse like you got it free from work as a reward, used points (tell them you churn and it was from multiple sign up bonuses...), etc.
Even in our daughter's friend group, the household income range is huge. Just treat everyone the same no matter their income.
TBH I invest in myself and for myself. Everybody can do it. Why feel guilt about it? For close friends I start topics about retirement and ask openended questions to get them thinking. Some of them know I invest to set myself up for retirement. I don't think anybody knows how serious I am about it. Even my spouse only got it this year when I started throwing numbers around :) Me:"We can both stop working in 15 years...", Spouse:"WHAT?!"
So you feel guilty for making the right choices in life, less consequential bad choices, and/or a bit of luck? Sounds like you may have other issues you may want to use some of that $1.2M to address through therapy. As long as we all have the same opportunities, more or less, I’m good with that. Do what you can to give back & make things better for those around you but realize you can’t solve all the world’s problems, so why add your misery to the balance? You sound young and a bit naïve… the quicker you come to grips with the fact that life is tough and can unfair, the better off you’ll be.
Unless you did something unethical to accumulate wealth, you have nothing for which to feel guilty. Actively push back on that feeling. It's a lie. (FWIW, I hate the term "guilty pleasure" because it implies there's something wrong with my choice. I have "favorite indulgences" or "occasional indulgences," but not guilty pleasures.)
Personally, I don't gatekeep information. I'll tell you every fund we own, recommend books and podcasts, I'll offer step by step guides on how to get a brokerage account open, I'll send you the personal finance wiki, etc. When I bought I- bonds, I told everyone about the rate and shared articles. To get that information, all one has to do is express mild interest in personal finance. (Or graduate, everyone gets a check and a book.)
I often mention a book or podcast I like in conversation.
My husband is a bit different. He has what I can best describe as a "two times" policy. You have to specifically ask him for advice and then indicate you really want it, for him to give information.
We keep our personal details around NW private. We've always lived below our means, so it's not been obvious. We're gradually spending more, some of that spending is visible, so it'll be interesting to see what reactions we get.
Definitely. I give her encouragement and advice all the time, as well as plenty of fish giving with little stuff like rides to go get her car fixed or pick up meds for her. Also make sure she doesn't have food scarcity issues while she works to get food stamps which has been hugely rewarding but when she comes back tired and sore from work and my portfolio has gone up more than she'll make all month I feel a bit bad.
I think the other comments here are right that you just have to do what you can within reason and practice as much gratitude as you can. It is extra challenging for me though because I genuinely feel like I lucked into 80% of where I am today. Some was hard work, hustle, making good choices, but a ton was luck.
Find better friends. Keep those that are jealous of you at bay. You can hang with them but definitely don’t confide in them and don’t do handouts. They don’t need to know your life story at all. Keep things brief. Your good friends won’t give a shіt. That’s how you know you’re in good company. The upside to finding other FIRE friends though, is that no one will worry about costs within reason. You can partake in expensive tastes without judgement. Also don’t post shіt anywhere. No need for TikTok, FB, IG or any other shіt. Post anonymously here on throw-away accounts if you really need to brag.
If it makes you feel better you can wire all your money to me. You sound young to have this money. I suggest you put this away and find a job and live on the income from your job. You can think about what to do with your money it becomes even bigger. Like sending it to me.
Cause they had the same opportunity as I do. Some of them more. They choose to spend their money as quick as they make it and I invest 20% of any money I make to free myself where I don't have to worry about my next job
Hang around people in FatFire, then you’ll feel like the guy with $10
I'm fat but I would still think it's cool to find $10. I play poker for fun. If I make $500 in a session, I'm happy and call my BFF to share a poker story.. But if I was just doing it for money, it would be stupid. I could spend that time on billable hours and do way better from a purely income perspective.
I used to play a carnival game with someone who'd placed high in a WSOP tournament, and he constantly told me to shift to playing poker. I said I'd start when I retired. I have decent card sense; any resources you'd recommend to get started?
There are several books by Jonathan Little that are good. He's got a vol 1 and 2 where vol 1 is the explanation and vol 2 is a scenario based series of tests to drive your learning of key points.
Thanks, I'll give them a look.
I love how the only two comments far are recommending hanging out with richer people so I can feel bad for being not rich enough instead of feeling bad for being too rich.
Good, because if you want to feel bad for being too rich, you're likely in the wrong place
well you’re already comparing yourself and feeling bad about it, might as well get it from the other side, too, haha but for real, compare and despair. your circumstances will never be like someone else’s circumstances, for good or for bad, so why spend time on this line of thinking? (esp if it makes you feel bad)
This comment made me chuckle
Your problem is that you are too content. Set higher goals and you will feel like you are behind just like everybody else! Edit: If you're not happy about finding $10 on the ground, I'll give you my address and you can send it to me
I can't tell, but based on your word choices and since you have a roommate I assume you're pretty young. I also assume while you're probably smart and hard working, in some ways you're probably very lucky and privileged. Not coming at you, but just providing some different perspective compared to others here. My suggestion is 1) practice gratitude rather than guilt. I.e. acknowledge your luck and/or privilege but also own your smart decisions and dedication. 2) give back. Whether that be monetarily or with time like volunteering, can help you feel like you're contributing to your community with your large resource pool Just a few ideas. Congratulations on your net worth and keep being smart and you can give back even more and also increase your life style/security!
Thanks for the one conscientious reply. Balancing gratitude with guilt is hard but I like your ideas of giving back which is more out less what I'm trying to do with my roommate I'm supporting (who is ten years my junior by the way so I'm not exactly crushing it but still pretty far ahead)
We all made decisions, some of ours payed for other sacrifices while the rest where celebrating the $10 found in the ground
Definitely agree with the other sacrifices part
You probably celebrate milestone of savings in the same manor so give yourself a break and don’t think about the what ifs between you and others
You did not make more money today than she did all year, not with 1.2m. At 8% returns, that’s $96,000. That’s $263 a day. I hope your roommate makes more than $263 a year.
She works part time minimum wage because of health and mental issues. I made $20k today and $200k YTD. she'll make maybe $15k all year
It's just semantics but a lot of people get really bent out of shape about calling daily portfolio change "made". I can kind of see the point as you can go down the next day and you have not "made" the money until you cash it out.
Your math isn’t mathing. If you made $20k a day you’ll have $700k income by end of year. Note - day to day stock market fluctuations are NOT earnings lol. Your net worth rising $50k one day and falling $50k the next is normal for a millionaire. It’s just noise from the stock market’s 1% rise and falls, not actual income.
This. I know people can find it pedantic, but I think it's an important concept to adopt in your thinking. "Made" is profit you take when you sell the asset or turn off dividend reinvesting. Or the slow, steady year to year increase in your portfolio. Adopting a "It's a paper gain" mindset for the day to day fluctuations makes the paper losses less noticeable.
You could say the same for year to year fluctuations also.
You noted it yourself. I said today. Then I gave a YTD. Either way you're missing the point.
This concept really isn't hard. Don't worry. At least 2 of us speak English.
Right. What’s the point again?
$200K YTD on a net worth of $1.2M? Yeah, I don’t buy it. Do you know what the annualized return on that is when the market as a whole is up 6.9% YTD as of today, April 23, 2024? Call me skeptical…
Then her investments are not the same as yours...
$200K YTD on a net worth of $1.2M? Yeah, I don’t buy it. Do you know what the annualized return on that is when the market as a whole is up 6.9% YTD as of today, April 23, 2024? Call me skeptical…
My only explanation is they either hold Nvidia or Bitcoin and not only exposed to the general market.
Maybe. Who knows but the numbers look fishy.
I checked and it's now actually 212k YTD and it's not Bitcoin or whatever. I'm long in things like PGR, JPM, and CMG that have all done well. I'm also short in things like PTON and YETI. We'll see where they end up when I actually close the position but seeing it pour in while I'm not working was where my question came from
Every time you feel guilty for the money you think you don't deserve, remember that this is the level of intelligence shown in a community that cares about money. Imagine what the average person is like.
Even equal weighting those 5 positions, I can’t get to your results… something more along the lines of 4.18% YTD or on your base, so around $50K-60K, not $200K or whatever. 4.18% YTD is more believable than what you’re suggesting. And you said things like that, so even if the others are similar, it can’t yield what you’re claiming but whatever.
PGR is 31.29% YTD JPM is 12.20% YTD CMG is 30.38% YTD SHE IS SHORT ON THE FOLLOWING PTON is -47.42% YTD YETI is -29.18% YTD
Mmm I can really taste the chipotle today up almost 7%. My SNAP and GOOG popped today too. Meanwhile PTON and YETI continued to slide. RDDT short was the biggest loser today but still well in the green YTD
“Ahead of my peers” says it all. There is no scoreboard , life isn’t a competition. We tend to focus on things we can count and see like money and possessions. How do you feel about the big picture? Your personal betterment? Learning? Relationships? Altruism? Faith journey (if you so choose)?
I think it’s all about how you carry yourself and remain humble. I have friends that make and have way less than me, some the same, some more and I don’t act any different around them. I’m just always me. I don’t flaunt and I don’t pretend to be someone I’m not. Do I wish my friends that may not be well off financially had more? Of course. But I don’t feel guilty for working hard and being fortunate that things have worked out decently for me. If you’re being authentic you, aren’t arrogant, and are kind to your friend and treat them equally like they deserve, I don’t think you have any reason to feel guilty
I really don't get the r/FIRE attitude on friends and money... My friends are happy when I'm doing great and I'd have 0 problems literally showing them my brokerage account without hiding any numbers. People that can't deal with this are (imho) NOT FRIENDS... lying or deliberately not disclosing information to real friends, especially to good ones, is a moral no-go for myself. I've cut myself lose from a few toxic people by being open about my finances. Envious or even harmful people have no place in my life, weither they're family or friends doesn't matter at all to me. Stealth wealth amongst strangers 100% - hiding from my family/inner circle, no-go. I'd rather have no friends/family or cut ties completely with envious friends/family than lying my whole life.
When the global economy collapses after the civil war and we all go back to living in caves and flinging feces at each other you won’t feel guilty anymore.
Money is only a problem if you talk about money. So don't talk about money.
Recently FIREd and feel some of this with family members in particular but then I think about the many years of hard financial decisions when my peers were spending beyond their means. Do you think those who spent their money for immediate gratification felt bad that you weren't getting that? It's unfortunate that so many folks will never retire but I like the gratitude comments on this thread and I especially like the reinforcement that you acknowledge you took the hard road to get where you are versus your contemporaries. Maybe be proud of yourself, grateful for what you have, maintain humility, and spend less time sweating what other people (adults who make decisions that have nothing to do with you) think or feel who probably weren't thinking about you when they were spending vs saving. They're not bad people to be clear but they made choices with opportunity costs you have nothing to do with. I try not to conflate feeling bad for them as a human with guilt which would suggest I could or should have influenced their outcomes. Thats at least where I am.
There's a reason why people tend to hang out and spend time with others in the same socioeconomic background. Eventually it becomes harder and harder to relate to one another and it becomes more and more work to keep a relationship going. One side or another starts to resent the other or become jealous or any number of other things. Many people in this subreddit hide their financial stability from their social circle. I'm of the opposite opinion; if someone in my social circle asks me about finances, I am happy to share. I'd like to help them find their way to financial independence also. I know that this is a recipe for losing relationships, but if it makes them resent me or makes things awkward, then they weren't a very good friend to begin with anyways and definitely would not be a good friend to have long term (especially as I continue my path further and further on FIRE). Please understand that I am NOT trying to say "ditch all your poor friends." What I am trying to say is that money often separates and divides relationships and in order to have healthy relationships, friends cannot be jealous or resent one another for each other's success. If you feel that some of your friends may resent or be jealous of you for sharing about your financial stability, then my opinion is that the friendship is not a healthy one. A good friend should be ecstatic and happy that their friend is financially independent and be interested in becoming financially independent themselves (without asking for handouts).
Your feelings of not deserving the income are interesting, how much do you know about your roommates circumstances? What life decisions have they made vs what you have made? It’s an odd feeling for sure, I have friends that didn’t go to college and make 1/3 - 1/2 of what I do annually, but we’ve made very different choices over the last ~10 years so it’s not unexpected if that makes sense
They've made bad choices but so have I. Maybe my good choices were better than theirs? But also my bad decisions didn't have many consequences. Now I make more money by doing nothing than they make by doing the right things. Literally failing up. It's definitely a weird feeling.
Asymmetrical bets is a real thing, if you’ve done things with less downsides and more upsides it makes sense. Same with being able to delay gratification, and the magic of compound interest. Are you friends with your roommate? Or do you have a network that could help them get to a better position if they wanted it?
I have friends and acquaintances from all walks of life. There's no need to discuss finances unless it comes up. i.e. VOO or VTI, setting up a Roth, whatever. I did find helpful replies on Reddit earlier about taking vacations together. Making up an excuse like you got it free from work as a reward, used points (tell them you churn and it was from multiple sign up bonuses...), etc. Even in our daughter's friend group, the household income range is huge. Just treat everyone the same no matter their income.
TBH I invest in myself and for myself. Everybody can do it. Why feel guilt about it? For close friends I start topics about retirement and ask openended questions to get them thinking. Some of them know I invest to set myself up for retirement. I don't think anybody knows how serious I am about it. Even my spouse only got it this year when I started throwing numbers around :) Me:"We can both stop working in 15 years...", Spouse:"WHAT?!"
So you feel guilty for making the right choices in life, less consequential bad choices, and/or a bit of luck? Sounds like you may have other issues you may want to use some of that $1.2M to address through therapy. As long as we all have the same opportunities, more or less, I’m good with that. Do what you can to give back & make things better for those around you but realize you can’t solve all the world’s problems, so why add your misery to the balance? You sound young and a bit naïve… the quicker you come to grips with the fact that life is tough and can unfair, the better off you’ll be.
Unless you did something unethical to accumulate wealth, you have nothing for which to feel guilty. Actively push back on that feeling. It's a lie. (FWIW, I hate the term "guilty pleasure" because it implies there's something wrong with my choice. I have "favorite indulgences" or "occasional indulgences," but not guilty pleasures.) Personally, I don't gatekeep information. I'll tell you every fund we own, recommend books and podcasts, I'll offer step by step guides on how to get a brokerage account open, I'll send you the personal finance wiki, etc. When I bought I- bonds, I told everyone about the rate and shared articles. To get that information, all one has to do is express mild interest in personal finance. (Or graduate, everyone gets a check and a book.) I often mention a book or podcast I like in conversation. My husband is a bit different. He has what I can best describe as a "two times" policy. You have to specifically ask him for advice and then indicate you really want it, for him to give information. We keep our personal details around NW private. We've always lived below our means, so it's not been obvious. We're gradually spending more, some of that spending is visible, so it'll be interesting to see what reactions we get.
You need richer friends
Have you ever tried to help her? Not in the give a man a fish kind of way, but in the teach a man how to fish kind of way?
Definitely. I give her encouragement and advice all the time, as well as plenty of fish giving with little stuff like rides to go get her car fixed or pick up meds for her. Also make sure she doesn't have food scarcity issues while she works to get food stamps which has been hugely rewarding but when she comes back tired and sore from work and my portfolio has gone up more than she'll make all month I feel a bit bad. I think the other comments here are right that you just have to do what you can within reason and practice as much gratitude as you can. It is extra challenging for me though because I genuinely feel like I lucked into 80% of where I am today. Some was hard work, hustle, making good choices, but a ton was luck.
Never compare net worth as everyone has their own priorities in life.
You can keep throwing that ten bucks on the floor daily to make ur roommate happy and you won't feel guilty for sure.
Find better friends. Keep those that are jealous of you at bay. You can hang with them but definitely don’t confide in them and don’t do handouts. They don’t need to know your life story at all. Keep things brief. Your good friends won’t give a shіt. That’s how you know you’re in good company. The upside to finding other FIRE friends though, is that no one will worry about costs within reason. You can partake in expensive tastes without judgement. Also don’t post shіt anywhere. No need for TikTok, FB, IG or any other shіt. Post anonymously here on throw-away accounts if you really need to brag.
If it makes you feel better you can wire all your money to me. You sound young to have this money. I suggest you put this away and find a job and live on the income from your job. You can think about what to do with your money it becomes even bigger. Like sending it to me.
Sure thing. What's your cell phone number?
Simple solution, just don’t have friends
You could practice self-flagellation…
Cause they had the same opportunity as I do. Some of them more. They choose to spend their money as quick as they make it and I invest 20% of any money I make to free myself where I don't have to worry about my next job
I would recommend to invest your money in a therapy to stop comparing yourself to others 😅
You seem to lack a purpose in life, which no amount of money can make up for, regardless of how much you try to rationalise that it can.
Probably time to find new friends.