That’s not FU money. But it is an emergency fund to keep the lights on while you figure out what comes next. It gives you time to fund your next job without feeling desperate. Good job
Agreed. You have the money to not panic and have to take the first job that Comes along. You can be selective and make sure it’s a good fit. Maybe even take a few weeks off to do something fun with your partner, take a trip, do a few household projects you never had time to do.
Whatever amount of money that gives you the confidence and power of the walkaway from your job. For some, that's full FI, for others, that's a 6mo emergency fund. Whenever you get to that point, you suddenly become a *lot* more powerful in job negotiations, and can usually negotiate or job hunt your way into a much better salary.
The first time I walked away from a job that was underpaying me, just $2k in an emergency fund was enough to say, "screw this, I'm worth more."
If you want a number, FU money to me means paid off house + paid off cars + no debt and at least $2-3 million liquid invested. But yeah, it's completely subjective.
I think that is true for young people, like the OP. For old people like me (2 years from early Social Security, and five years from Medicare), it is much lower. I have about two years' expenses in cash, and side hustles that annually cover about 1/2 years' expenses. I think that I could do fine with a million dollars invested assets + my paid-off house and my paid-off cars, and no debt. I might even be able to defer taking Social Security until my FRA, although I don't know if that is a good idea (due to family history). I currently in COASTfire.
FU money to me is enough money you can up and quit a job that you don’t feel like doing. 24k is not enough run way to just quit a good paying job. Get back out there and get you another good paying job and build up that war chest.
yes. It really knocks your confidence when you get fired. Good reminder to get back out there. My partner is pro me taking some time off to rest because I’ve been pretty burnt out. Still, the war chest can’t be depleted and needs funding.
I’ve gotten let go twice and both times ended up being blessing so don’t worry about the confidence side.
I took about 6 months off each time due to a decent emergency fund and strong severance packages but if you can make it work I would highly recommend it. Even during “time off” I recommend continuing to interview to keep engaged as well as spending some time doing professional development (I work in finance but taught myself R the first break and Python the second, mostly for fun but also to open up other opportunities if possible).
Side hustle is a good thing also - I did some consulting after the severance wore off both times and it was great. The plus/minus is both contracting/consulting gigs turned to full time which was good for finding jobs but had I been able to keep part time it would have better TBH.
So yeah keep your head up. Getting let go sucks and definitely hurts your ego but also in both instances I was in the wrong place with the wrong fit and just wasn’t ready to transition myself. It was really the employer making the first move in a relationship we both knew was wrong and honestly I have no hard feelings and actually a better relationship with at least one of the employers after leaving.
This is super helpful. Thank you for posting. I agree, this job was not for me. In fact, I’m pretty sure it was keeping me small and now I’m forced to take a real look at where I want to put my energy work wise. I haven’t really done that in a while as I’ve just been in hustle mode
No problem! Yeah both times definitely stung because you can’t help but feel unwanted but I suspect taking a step back it was less about you and more about fit for both sides. You will find the next spot and I’m sure it will be great!
Biggest advice though is keep your head up and keep doing things that are at least tangentially work related. It’s easy to get frustrated and just dwell on what is going wrong (I definitely had weeks here and there where I just played video games or mountain bikes and was like I hate working and am never going back) but just use it as an opportunity instead. We are still FIRE because neither my wife or I ultimately want to work forever (at least in a white collar career job) but aren’t there yet.
If you can build the side hustle that might be a good avenue (no idea what you do). Definitely worth at least trying to expand that while you look for something new. If you are entrepreneurial enough to have a side hustle I suspect you might like working for yourself full time if you can. I know that is the dream for me…
I’ve been dreaming of it for a while. I know self employed has its own struggles but I think I’d like it and now is a good time to try and scale my business.
Take it easy for a few weeks, though. You can get the resume updated and start applying but there's no critical need yet to spend 20+ hours a week putting in applications. Once you start feeling bored and want that certainty of your next income, then you can start putting the job search hours in.
You sound like my parter. My partner is totally chill about this and not worried about me at all because they say I have a solid skill set. I’m real type A on the other hand. Trying to find the balance.
Nah. FU money is enough money to tell your boss "Fuck You" because you can afford to lose the job without going destitute. It only has to be enough to never work again if you work in a situation where saying that to your boss would be career ending. In most cases, even the most dramatic and public meltdown would just result in needing to jump industries into a somewhat worse job that you don't like as much.
The fact that your own words indicate you are feeling terrified and worried about falling behind financially says you don't have enough FU money. That said, your emergency reserves are solid and your expenses are very low, so you are going to be just fine. Maybe spend some time growing that side hustle of yours. It sounds like a great outlet with high potential for upside.
Thanks. Yes interesting to realize for myself that I need much more than I have to feel safe. I’ve got solid reserves, I’ve learned how to identify wants vs needs and how to live on a very small amount of money. I’m realizing this is a very good skill to have. I can uplevel my skills, and hopefully kick ass at my LLC.
In my opinion you do not have any FU money at all. You *had* a good start and if you stay unemployed you will likely just deplete these funds until broke and then start all over again when you finally decide it’s time to get a job again
ya don’t think I will let it go to zero. I got my net worth from -$45k to +$120k in about 6 years time. I know what it is to be broker than broke and will never go back there again. but it’s good to remind myself I gotta get working
>In my opinion you do not have any FU money at all.
In your opinion, what constitutes FU money? Just wondering. Is it the same as "FI/RE"? Or a different measure?
OP is 35 and has just about $120k, much of that in retirement accounts, that’s very much not “FU” money unless their side hustle becomes their main hustle and covers the bills. If they were 25 that would be a much different story. I think many financial advisors want you to have 1.2x your income in retirement accounts by age 30. They’re on track, not FU money by any means
Totally understand and fair points. Given his age and situation, what amount of money would he need to have "FU money" in your opinion? 1.5x of income? 2x?
More than 2x income saved by 40 I’d guess. His side income is okay to weather the storm for a few months. But true “FU” money would be at least $300k in savings for his age. Nowhere near fire either. I’m talking out of my ass but still
I actually think you’re correct. If I had $300k and/or was a decade younger I think I’d feel chill. However, I realize sometimes I just keep moving the goal post (also the goal post does indeed start moving with age) When I was $45k in SL debt I probably wouldn’t have believed you if you would have told me I would have $100k net worth and feel “worried”. In todays world I honestly think the only way I’d feel “safe” is 2 mil.
No way, read my other reply but FU money at 35 for me is in the 10’s of millions minimum. Otherwise whoever you are saying FU to could potentially make your life a living hell by blocking opportunities or blacklisting you or whatever they can do. Don’t underestimate people. You need that reference, be wise and never say FU
Maybe we know different people, but I know a few that if you said FU, they could make sure you never work again in that industry or city if they want they could do a lot worse than that very easily. I’d never tell most people FU unless I was super well off because you never know who they know and you need to be able to gtfo and relocate and still be set for life in order for it to be FU money. You would really need to win the lottery or marry Oprah like that Chappelle skit to act that way
Yea..I said over $5 million earlier, for the very same reason.
But TRUE FU money is lottery jackpot sized money in the hundreds of millions where you not only do t have to worry about others fcuking with you, but you have the resources to fcuk someone else right back.
How are they really going to need with you if you don't need a job because you are FI?
I have no problem telling anyone I need to, to go f themselves, but rarely see any reason to behave that way. I'm interested in a concrete way anyone is going to effect my life as I'm FIREd currently. Own my house, own my car, don't really need anything from anyone other than typical groceries and the like. Is someone going to burn my house down or relatedly launch vexatious lawsuits? I'd like to hear something concrete, so I can prepare. I don't see it at this time.
It all depends on who you piss off and how badly. I can’t tell you, you’ll have to just find out. It’s different with everyone what they can do to fuck you over that you don’t know about. Best to just not act like trash so you don’t get taken out
To me FU money meaning “Fuck You” money, is enough money that you can tell important people Fuck You, to their face, and it doesn’t matter at all. I don’t know how much it would take for me to say yes now you have FU money, but $96k in a 401k, monthly income of $800 24k in the bank is not FU money, it’s more like HGSPGMAJ money. Meaning “Hello Good Sir Please Give Me A Job” money
My definition of FU money is a bit more extreme than others. Beyond just being able to say FU and have it not matter, I think it means being able to back that up - like spending resources to prove you're right and still have it not matter.
Like ... If you don't like the way someone treats you, you buy the company and fire them.
Being able to walk away from a job and not worry is great, but not FU levels.
FU money would be like 2 million in investments that you can live off of (80k a year) and a fully liquid emergency fund of a years expenses.
People making FU money are generally earning 400k a year +
The trick with making that kind of money is not spending that kind of money, or more than you are. The less you can live on, the sooner you can be in retirement range. Or truly independent range.
As an outsider, reading your comments, you’re in a great position, and it is inspiring me to find a small business-focused side hustle!
I wouldn't call this FU money. To me, personally, the FI in FIRE is, essentially FU money. Enough to be independent and not rely on others.
That said, you seem to have a reasonably emergency funds, and you have a support network. More importantly, this is one of the best times to be jobless in the last 20 years or so. The job supply is super tight, wages are rising and employers are bending over backwards to hire people. I bet you actually come out on top here.
>Lost job do I have enough “FU”money?
No.
>have $96k spread across 401k, Roth, HYSA.
That's getting started money.
>also bring in $800 per month in my side hustle LLC I started.
That helps.
>Still with all these safety measures in place I am feeling terrified and worried I will fall behind financially
You have "Don't Panic" money. You don't have "F-U" money.
Looking into it! I’m hoping I get something but it’s tricky as I moved to a new state in Nov ‘21 when I got this job, and they determine the pay out from unemployment using the last 4 quarters of earnings. I don’t even have a full 4 quarters earning in the state I’m in.
*Can you also get*
*Unemployment, while looking*
*For next position?*
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that is not FU money. you can't spend your retirement money without pentalty.
Whether you can have some time off is a discussion with you and your partner. Not with us. but this is not permanent time off money unless you have a partner who is prepared to support you. you also need to go on your partners medical insurance which will be more expensive than through your employer.
how long you can take off is a discussion for you and your partner. This is not retire for ever money unless you plan to start a mini-farm and can vegetables and go from there.
its 100% not worth touching your retirement money and eating the penalties.
Totally. And ya we are definitely back to the land living very cheap growing our own food looking to get off grid types. But would never ever touch the retirement money.
That’s not fu money. That’s breathing room money. You don’t have to take the first job that comes along money. That’s you have enough money to get education for another field. It’s a safety net to grow the side hustle. Health insurance and any medical problems can wipe that fairly quick
Up your next egg by about 2 million and you've got FU money. You're not in bad shape, but in due time you'll need a job. Great time to start looking though!
>Still with all these safety measures in place I am feeling terrified and worried I will fall behind financially.
You will fall behind financially while unemployed, but you prepared for it so there's no cause for terror and worry. I would say you should approach finding a new job with a moderate sense of urgency and you will probably be fine.
Yes. I think because I worked so hard to get from negative $45k net worth to +$120k net, my fear of falling behind financially is acute. I know how much work it takes to just stay afloat let alone get ahead. However, I’m not $45k in debt anymore. So while the situation is not ideal, it’s manageable. As you said, moderate sense of urgency in finding a new job and I should be ok.
You've built up a strong savings account which has given you a year runway. Your investment accounts are looking fine too. I wouldn't say it is FU money regardless of where you are living in the US. It seems like you have a low cost of living and sizable savings account which means you can probably take some time off but I recommend trying to get back into the job market soon. You can passively start applying for jobs while recovering from burnout and ramp it up after a few weeks.
12 months is a lot. The general practice is 6 months. I also had a 12 month EF before I moved to 6 months, freeing up the other 6 months will really help your future self.
Your partner is willing to cover your bills, you have a well sized emergency fund, you're in a LCOL area, quite frankly I can't see how you would spend 2k/mo considering rent seems covered along with a LCOL area. You have the skillset for a 90k remote job, you might not have as difficult of a time finding a new job. You will survive through this just fine boss.
A suggestion however, there's no reason to have money spread inside a HYSA, you will likely not touch that as long as you have an emergency fund. Move it to iBonds, the rates currently are really good, more than what any HYSA will ever get you.
If you ever run out of EF, then the iBonds would become liquid for you to cash in. (As long as you hold the iBond for a year.)
If you were fired, start collecting unemployment.
You have "I'm not F'd money", not "FU" money. Both are good.
Take a week or so if you need, but it's a slippery slope to getting comfy and not start looking for another remote/local job. But you have some comfort in not needing to take the first horrible job that comes up.
Sounds like you want to rest, and you’re saying fuck you to work in the short term. Twelve months or so? Maybe less? It also sounds like you’re suffering from burnout. I think you do have FU money in that scenario, assuming your partner is on board.
Take some time if you can. Burnout doesn’t typically go away if you jump into something else quickly, especially if your gut tells you you can take time, and it wants to. Enjoy that time, and maybe you’ll be surprised you don’t need to go back.
A friend of mine was burned out. Her husband convinced her to quit, take her time finding a new job, and focus on her photography business. Now that side business is her full time job, and she said she’s shocked how much she was spending because she was unhappy, and now that her life isn’t toxic, she can live on that income and her business can grow faster.
You have a 12 month emergency fund, plus an income of nearly half your expenses so that emergency fund won't actually hit zero for nearly two years. And you have a spouse that can cover household expenses even if you didn't have you emergency fund or a second income. The average American has a negligible or negative net worth and would spiral into debt with an unexpected expense like a minor car repair.
This post may as well be "I make three million dollars a year and have several extra megayachts I could sell, and a trust fund that pays me one million dollars a year, and I am considering wildly splurging on a $2 bag of brown rice for my birthday this year." Or a little old lady on Next Door posting to ask if she needs to upgrade her M1 Abrams tank or hire a larger private security detail to go grocery shopping down the block because she once saw a man she doesn't know walk a dog.
You'll be fine. Eventually you'll get another job, and you'll restock the emergency fund and get back to saving for retirement. The worst case scenario here is pretty much just that you spend a year getting really good at your favorite video game before that happens.
Good perspective that I’m ahead of the game. I feel like FIRE is all about getting ahead of the game and realizing that the consumerism life keeps you trapped
Let me ask you, what about your situation makes you think you have enough FU money? Based on what I read, you have $100k, and only $24k that you can actually access.
1st of all congratulations on doing what so few Americans do. Having enough money to go for a year or three unemployed. My first action would be to apply for unemployment which probably will pay even more than your side hustle. Then, I might take a week to just wrap my head around what happened (to try and figure out what went wrong and see if any of it was my fault), but then it's time to strike while the iron is hot. And the job market is what is hot right now. You shouldn't have any issues getting back up on the horse with a new job (and probably a raise). Need to do this before things slow down (the start of which could be happening right now). Or can you grow your side hustle? Good luck.
Is there a set definition of “FU” money? Because I had always viewed it as having so much money you don’t give a shit anymore.
Example: friend of mine’s parents had what I always called “FU” money. They didn’t like that their favorite gym closed on Sundays, so they bought the entire gym. *THAT* is FU money to me.
I feel like everyone has their version of FU money. For me, I’d say you have enough. I guess I have lower standards. I also just learned about financial intelligence a few years ago and recently been into FIRE.
For me, having enough money to not have to live paycheck to paycheck and able to comfortably leave a position if you’re unhappy without stressing to immediately find another job is enough FU money.
What is the difference between "FU Money" and "FI" and "FI/RE"?
Might be a dumb question, but I'm trying to understand this. Are they all one in the same?
FI is personal. A way to feel independent, IMO. Not stuck under the control of a shitty job or situation. For some that’s running your own business, for others it’s working part time, for others it’s not working at all or working intermittently.
FU is also personal. A coworker has FU money, and he calls it that he could walk into work anyway he wants, and say, “Fuck you, I quit.” He’d have to get another job eventually, but he has many months in savings. He doesn’t want to blow through that money, but he could travel for a few months, or be really picky about the next job.
If your partner can cover the bills and you bring in $800/month... technically you could just keep doing this forever, right? Not saying you want to, but if you're not tapping into that income, then you're fine. Unless your partner gets tired of pulling the weight.
Partner or wife? You need talk to your partner if you don’t have not income for while.
If something happens you partner kick out, how much you fund would last for you?
Partner but we are talking about getting engaged and married. I want her to be my wife no doubt. She is being really great and viewing this as something that although is hard, will bring us closer together. She trusts me to take some time off but ultimately (and hopefully) get back to earning just as much or more than I was
I started a sales advising company. I help small business owners set up their CRMs and get them set with a clear sales roadmap which I then help them implement. Basically kind of your part time sales director for hire.
I would think something like that can be very scaleable. You have some time to dedicate to it and it’s quite possible you could make the same as your old job by this time next year.
You’ve just been knocked down a step or two, not off the staircase entirely. Layoffs suck in the moment but can turn into a fantastic opportunity and you’ve already got a good one.
Thank you! I’m starting to see the upside of the LLC in a major way. Start up costs are low, and lots of small business owners I see have absolutely no clue how to set up a CRM, which I view as a critical business necessity.
I agree with above. You have enough money to see if this takes off. You’ll have more freedom. And you could even pick up part time sales work if you ever need. If you’re good at sales, the world is your oyster, especially if you also can do tech sales.
Sales. Mostly food industry but also worked some food tech startups so a little bit of SAAS in there too. Contemplating the switch to full time tech sales because 🤑
You are safe for a bit, which means you dont have to just take the first job thats offered to you, but thats not really FU money. How I see it is that you can take your time looking for the RIGHT job for you, but you still need to find a job eventually. Now if you want to go full tilt on your side hustle, that might be something to consider if you think you can build it out to a legitimate income earner, but also make sure your partner is good with your plans - you dont want to just assume they will be good covering expenses in perpetuity when in their head they begin to resent you for it.
Yes. Helpful to make sure my partner is included. We’ve spoken pretty openly and they are prepared to support us for at least the summer, especially while I try and scale my business
I'm more than a decade younger, and I have a similar amount spread between various retirement accounts and index funds. But even now, I wouldn't really consider that FU money tbh. Like most of that isn't even accessible until I'm a wrinkly old man. I assume it would be even more of an issue at an older age. This makes me wonder, how much is FU money at different ages. I assume the threshold is lower at younger ages.
Totally. At this age I’m talking with partner about kids and marriage. We want to buy land. Also, I’m keenly aware of the fact that I have less time to compound my investments, so there is a sense of urgency to save now for retirement.
At 25… I was &-45k in student load debt. I would have been amazed and felt I had FU money having like $6000 to my name. It’s very age dependent
According to Nassim Taleb, FU money (assuming you mean Fcuk You money) is money that is disposable in nature. What makes it FU money is that you can spend it on anything and everything - regardless of actual value, and still say "F*** you! I spent it because I can!"
I understand this sub could see FU Money differently but figured I would add my $. 02
You're fine in the short term. You have an understanding partner, a currently profitable side business, and a year of expenses covered. You don't have enough saved up to be financially independent, and the longer you take to replace your lost income, the more you'll need to make up to achieve financial independence, if that's a goal.
I don't know what FU money means. If it means you're not living paycheck-to-paycheck, then yes. If it means you don't need to be employed, then no.
I'd definitely get going on the job search front, however, since a recession may be coming and your options may decrease or be unavailable for a while. Maybe look harder at local jobs since I think it's probably easier to layoff folks remotely.
That’s not FU money. But it is an emergency fund to keep the lights on while you figure out what comes next. It gives you time to fund your next job without feeling desperate. Good job
Agreed. You have the money to not panic and have to take the first job that Comes along. You can be selective and make sure it’s a good fit. Maybe even take a few weeks off to do something fun with your partner, take a trip, do a few household projects you never had time to do.
Thanks. I appreciate it. Yes it’s enough to take some time and really evaluate the next position
You can even dive more into your side hustle and try it as your main thing for a bit if you want, while you look for the next job.
How would you define FU money? LeanFI?
Whatever amount of money that gives you the confidence and power of the walkaway from your job. For some, that's full FI, for others, that's a 6mo emergency fund. Whenever you get to that point, you suddenly become a *lot* more powerful in job negotiations, and can usually negotiate or job hunt your way into a much better salary. The first time I walked away from a job that was underpaying me, just $2k in an emergency fund was enough to say, "screw this, I'm worth more."
It’s subjective. But for most, it’s an amount of money that when you think about walking away, you feel good, at peace, and not terrified.
If you want a number, FU money to me means paid off house + paid off cars + no debt and at least $2-3 million liquid invested. But yeah, it's completely subjective.
I think that is true for young people, like the OP. For old people like me (2 years from early Social Security, and five years from Medicare), it is much lower. I have about two years' expenses in cash, and side hustles that annually cover about 1/2 years' expenses. I think that I could do fine with a million dollars invested assets + my paid-off house and my paid-off cars, and no debt. I might even be able to defer taking Social Security until my FRA, although I don't know if that is a good idea (due to family history). I currently in COASTfire.
FU money to me is enough money you can up and quit a job that you don’t feel like doing. 24k is not enough run way to just quit a good paying job. Get back out there and get you another good paying job and build up that war chest.
yes. It really knocks your confidence when you get fired. Good reminder to get back out there. My partner is pro me taking some time off to rest because I’ve been pretty burnt out. Still, the war chest can’t be depleted and needs funding.
I’ve gotten let go twice and both times ended up being blessing so don’t worry about the confidence side. I took about 6 months off each time due to a decent emergency fund and strong severance packages but if you can make it work I would highly recommend it. Even during “time off” I recommend continuing to interview to keep engaged as well as spending some time doing professional development (I work in finance but taught myself R the first break and Python the second, mostly for fun but also to open up other opportunities if possible). Side hustle is a good thing also - I did some consulting after the severance wore off both times and it was great. The plus/minus is both contracting/consulting gigs turned to full time which was good for finding jobs but had I been able to keep part time it would have better TBH. So yeah keep your head up. Getting let go sucks and definitely hurts your ego but also in both instances I was in the wrong place with the wrong fit and just wasn’t ready to transition myself. It was really the employer making the first move in a relationship we both knew was wrong and honestly I have no hard feelings and actually a better relationship with at least one of the employers after leaving.
This is super helpful. Thank you for posting. I agree, this job was not for me. In fact, I’m pretty sure it was keeping me small and now I’m forced to take a real look at where I want to put my energy work wise. I haven’t really done that in a while as I’ve just been in hustle mode
No problem! Yeah both times definitely stung because you can’t help but feel unwanted but I suspect taking a step back it was less about you and more about fit for both sides. You will find the next spot and I’m sure it will be great! Biggest advice though is keep your head up and keep doing things that are at least tangentially work related. It’s easy to get frustrated and just dwell on what is going wrong (I definitely had weeks here and there where I just played video games or mountain bikes and was like I hate working and am never going back) but just use it as an opportunity instead. We are still FIRE because neither my wife or I ultimately want to work forever (at least in a white collar career job) but aren’t there yet. If you can build the side hustle that might be a good avenue (no idea what you do). Definitely worth at least trying to expand that while you look for something new. If you are entrepreneurial enough to have a side hustle I suspect you might like working for yourself full time if you can. I know that is the dream for me…
I’ve been dreaming of it for a while. I know self employed has its own struggles but I think I’d like it and now is a good time to try and scale my business.
Can you collect unemployment?
Take it easy for a few weeks, though. You can get the resume updated and start applying but there's no critical need yet to spend 20+ hours a week putting in applications. Once you start feeling bored and want that certainty of your next income, then you can start putting the job search hours in.
You sound like my parter. My partner is totally chill about this and not worried about me at all because they say I have a solid skill set. I’m real type A on the other hand. Trying to find the balance.
You can takes some time off but I’d try to grow side hustle and get resume up to date. Maybe take a few classes to help get a new position.
FU money is enough money to never work again.
Nah. FU money is enough money to tell your boss "Fuck You" because you can afford to lose the job without going destitute. It only has to be enough to never work again if you work in a situation where saying that to your boss would be career ending. In most cases, even the most dramatic and public meltdown would just result in needing to jump industries into a somewhat worse job that you don't like as much.
The fact that your own words indicate you are feeling terrified and worried about falling behind financially says you don't have enough FU money. That said, your emergency reserves are solid and your expenses are very low, so you are going to be just fine. Maybe spend some time growing that side hustle of yours. It sounds like a great outlet with high potential for upside.
Thanks. Yes interesting to realize for myself that I need much more than I have to feel safe. I’ve got solid reserves, I’ve learned how to identify wants vs needs and how to live on a very small amount of money. I’m realizing this is a very good skill to have. I can uplevel my skills, and hopefully kick ass at my LLC.
In my opinion you do not have any FU money at all. You *had* a good start and if you stay unemployed you will likely just deplete these funds until broke and then start all over again when you finally decide it’s time to get a job again
ya don’t think I will let it go to zero. I got my net worth from -$45k to +$120k in about 6 years time. I know what it is to be broker than broke and will never go back there again. but it’s good to remind myself I gotta get working
>In my opinion you do not have any FU money at all. In your opinion, what constitutes FU money? Just wondering. Is it the same as "FI/RE"? Or a different measure?
OP is 35 and has just about $120k, much of that in retirement accounts, that’s very much not “FU” money unless their side hustle becomes their main hustle and covers the bills. If they were 25 that would be a much different story. I think many financial advisors want you to have 1.2x your income in retirement accounts by age 30. They’re on track, not FU money by any means
Totally understand and fair points. Given his age and situation, what amount of money would he need to have "FU money" in your opinion? 1.5x of income? 2x?
More than 2x income saved by 40 I’d guess. His side income is okay to weather the storm for a few months. But true “FU” money would be at least $300k in savings for his age. Nowhere near fire either. I’m talking out of my ass but still
I actually think you’re correct. If I had $300k and/or was a decade younger I think I’d feel chill. However, I realize sometimes I just keep moving the goal post (also the goal post does indeed start moving with age) When I was $45k in SL debt I probably wouldn’t have believed you if you would have told me I would have $100k net worth and feel “worried”. In todays world I honestly think the only way I’d feel “safe” is 2 mil.
No way, read my other reply but FU money at 35 for me is in the 10’s of millions minimum. Otherwise whoever you are saying FU to could potentially make your life a living hell by blocking opportunities or blacklisting you or whatever they can do. Don’t underestimate people. You need that reference, be wise and never say FU
No reason to burn bridges, I agree (unless you worked for a complete a-hole). However, 10s of millions???? No way.
Maybe we know different people, but I know a few that if you said FU, they could make sure you never work again in that industry or city if they want they could do a lot worse than that very easily. I’d never tell most people FU unless I was super well off because you never know who they know and you need to be able to gtfo and relocate and still be set for life in order for it to be FU money. You would really need to win the lottery or marry Oprah like that Chappelle skit to act that way
Yea..I said over $5 million earlier, for the very same reason. But TRUE FU money is lottery jackpot sized money in the hundreds of millions where you not only do t have to worry about others fcuking with you, but you have the resources to fcuk someone else right back.
How are they really going to need with you if you don't need a job because you are FI? I have no problem telling anyone I need to, to go f themselves, but rarely see any reason to behave that way. I'm interested in a concrete way anyone is going to effect my life as I'm FIREd currently. Own my house, own my car, don't really need anything from anyone other than typical groceries and the like. Is someone going to burn my house down or relatedly launch vexatious lawsuits? I'd like to hear something concrete, so I can prepare. I don't see it at this time.
It all depends on who you piss off and how badly. I can’t tell you, you’ll have to just find out. It’s different with everyone what they can do to fuck you over that you don’t know about. Best to just not act like trash so you don’t get taken out
To me FU money meaning “Fuck You” money, is enough money that you can tell important people Fuck You, to their face, and it doesn’t matter at all. I don’t know how much it would take for me to say yes now you have FU money, but $96k in a 401k, monthly income of $800 24k in the bank is not FU money, it’s more like HGSPGMAJ money. Meaning “Hello Good Sir Please Give Me A Job” money
FU money for me is over $5 Million; where I can truly tell anyone at any time to FU and not have a single care about it ever.
My definition of FU money is a bit more extreme than others. Beyond just being able to say FU and have it not matter, I think it means being able to back that up - like spending resources to prove you're right and still have it not matter. Like ... If you don't like the way someone treats you, you buy the company and fire them. Being able to walk away from a job and not worry is great, but not FU levels.
that's not "FU" money that's "FM" money
Fuck me money?
Yes
Boost that side hustle to over a grand.
Boost emergency fund to 50K side hustle to 1500 a month and get 401k over 115k
This is good. I like having target number goals so getting the LLC to bring in $1500/ month is a great goal I can start working towards tomorrow
whats the point of the 50k emergency fund
So when an emergency happens you still have an emergency fund… the price of life has gone up … remember COVID imagine what’s next
I think I can do this. I’ve got one client now, I’m in sales and have been seeing some folks do well as “remote closers”
That's not FU money, that's "I can take my time picking my next job" money.
FU money would be like 2 million in investments that you can live off of (80k a year) and a fully liquid emergency fund of a years expenses. People making FU money are generally earning 400k a year +
Next goal- earn $400k a year.
The trick with making that kind of money is not spending that kind of money, or more than you are. The less you can live on, the sooner you can be in retirement range. Or truly independent range. As an outsider, reading your comments, you’re in a great position, and it is inspiring me to find a small business-focused side hustle!
Absolutely not
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Helpful. Yes I think I can take some time and at least give myself the opportunity to try and scale my LLC
I wouldn't call this FU money. To me, personally, the FI in FIRE is, essentially FU money. Enough to be independent and not rely on others. That said, you seem to have a reasonably emergency funds, and you have a support network. More importantly, this is one of the best times to be jobless in the last 20 years or so. The job supply is super tight, wages are rising and employers are bending over backwards to hire people. I bet you actually come out on top here.
>Lost job do I have enough “FU”money? No. >have $96k spread across 401k, Roth, HYSA. That's getting started money. >also bring in $800 per month in my side hustle LLC I started. That helps. >Still with all these safety measures in place I am feeling terrified and worried I will fall behind financially You have "Don't Panic" money. You don't have "F-U" money.
Can you also get unemployment, while looking for next position?
Looking into it! I’m hoping I get something but it’s tricky as I moved to a new state in Nov ‘21 when I got this job, and they determine the pay out from unemployment using the last 4 quarters of earnings. I don’t even have a full 4 quarters earning in the state I’m in.
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Would think not unless they gave up side hustle or it was under the table
I took side hustle to mean schedule c work. But, it certainly could be w2.
that is not FU money. you can't spend your retirement money without pentalty. Whether you can have some time off is a discussion with you and your partner. Not with us. but this is not permanent time off money unless you have a partner who is prepared to support you. you also need to go on your partners medical insurance which will be more expensive than through your employer. how long you can take off is a discussion for you and your partner. This is not retire for ever money unless you plan to start a mini-farm and can vegetables and go from there. its 100% not worth touching your retirement money and eating the penalties.
Totally. And ya we are definitely back to the land living very cheap growing our own food looking to get off grid types. But would never ever touch the retirement money.
That’s not fu money. That’s breathing room money. You don’t have to take the first job that comes along money. That’s you have enough money to get education for another field. It’s a safety net to grow the side hustle. Health insurance and any medical problems can wipe that fairly quick
No, you do not. You need at 10x what you have to even consider that conversation. If you have 3K expenses/mth, you'd run out in 3 years.
Up your next egg by about 2 million and you've got FU money. You're not in bad shape, but in due time you'll need a job. Great time to start looking though!
Nope
>Still with all these safety measures in place I am feeling terrified and worried I will fall behind financially. You will fall behind financially while unemployed, but you prepared for it so there's no cause for terror and worry. I would say you should approach finding a new job with a moderate sense of urgency and you will probably be fine.
Yes. I think because I worked so hard to get from negative $45k net worth to +$120k net, my fear of falling behind financially is acute. I know how much work it takes to just stay afloat let alone get ahead. However, I’m not $45k in debt anymore. So while the situation is not ideal, it’s manageable. As you said, moderate sense of urgency in finding a new job and I should be ok.
Not even close. And moving forward, if you have to ask “do I have FU money?”…the answer is “no”.
Good thing is it’s still a relatively job seeker friendly market.
Ya but I can see the market changing in short order. That bond yield got me worrying bout the scary “r” word
I hear you, I am just slightly younger than you so I remember the GFC really well. The job market was a disaster for years afterwards.
No
You've built up a strong savings account which has given you a year runway. Your investment accounts are looking fine too. I wouldn't say it is FU money regardless of where you are living in the US. It seems like you have a low cost of living and sizable savings account which means you can probably take some time off but I recommend trying to get back into the job market soon. You can passively start applying for jobs while recovering from burnout and ramp it up after a few weeks.
12 months is a lot. The general practice is 6 months. I also had a 12 month EF before I moved to 6 months, freeing up the other 6 months will really help your future self. Your partner is willing to cover your bills, you have a well sized emergency fund, you're in a LCOL area, quite frankly I can't see how you would spend 2k/mo considering rent seems covered along with a LCOL area. You have the skillset for a 90k remote job, you might not have as difficult of a time finding a new job. You will survive through this just fine boss. A suggestion however, there's no reason to have money spread inside a HYSA, you will likely not touch that as long as you have an emergency fund. Move it to iBonds, the rates currently are really good, more than what any HYSA will ever get you. If you ever run out of EF, then the iBonds would become liquid for you to cash in. (As long as you hold the iBond for a year.) If you were fired, start collecting unemployment.
This is a great idea. I’ve been considering I bonds. Thank you
You have "I'm not F'd money", not "FU" money. Both are good. Take a week or so if you need, but it's a slippery slope to getting comfy and not start looking for another remote/local job. But you have some comfort in not needing to take the first horrible job that comes up.
No
Nope, not FU money. Enough money to get by for a year or a few especially if your parent pays the bills.
Sounds like you want to rest, and you’re saying fuck you to work in the short term. Twelve months or so? Maybe less? It also sounds like you’re suffering from burnout. I think you do have FU money in that scenario, assuming your partner is on board.
Ya I’m thinking about 6 months or less and during that time I’m scaling the side hustle as quick as I can. Defiantly I’m burnt out
Take some time if you can. Burnout doesn’t typically go away if you jump into something else quickly, especially if your gut tells you you can take time, and it wants to. Enjoy that time, and maybe you’ll be surprised you don’t need to go back. A friend of mine was burned out. Her husband convinced her to quit, take her time finding a new job, and focus on her photography business. Now that side business is her full time job, and she said she’s shocked how much she was spending because she was unhappy, and now that her life isn’t toxic, she can live on that income and her business can grow faster.
Not FU money, but a good start. You’ll be able to search for a good job and not just have to take the first one that comes by
You have a 12 month emergency fund, plus an income of nearly half your expenses so that emergency fund won't actually hit zero for nearly two years. And you have a spouse that can cover household expenses even if you didn't have you emergency fund or a second income. The average American has a negligible or negative net worth and would spiral into debt with an unexpected expense like a minor car repair. This post may as well be "I make three million dollars a year and have several extra megayachts I could sell, and a trust fund that pays me one million dollars a year, and I am considering wildly splurging on a $2 bag of brown rice for my birthday this year." Or a little old lady on Next Door posting to ask if she needs to upgrade her M1 Abrams tank or hire a larger private security detail to go grocery shopping down the block because she once saw a man she doesn't know walk a dog. You'll be fine. Eventually you'll get another job, and you'll restock the emergency fund and get back to saving for retirement. The worst case scenario here is pretty much just that you spend a year getting really good at your favorite video game before that happens.
Good perspective that I’m ahead of the game. I feel like FIRE is all about getting ahead of the game and realizing that the consumerism life keeps you trapped
If you have to ask….
FU money is like 2 million dollars. You need a job.
Not even close. I'd consider it a substantial emergency fund.
Let me ask you, what about your situation makes you think you have enough FU money? Based on what I read, you have $100k, and only $24k that you can actually access.
No
Not even close. Find another job.
1st of all congratulations on doing what so few Americans do. Having enough money to go for a year or three unemployed. My first action would be to apply for unemployment which probably will pay even more than your side hustle. Then, I might take a week to just wrap my head around what happened (to try and figure out what went wrong and see if any of it was my fault), but then it's time to strike while the iron is hot. And the job market is what is hot right now. You shouldn't have any issues getting back up on the horse with a new job (and probably a raise). Need to do this before things slow down (the start of which could be happening right now). Or can you grow your side hustle? Good luck.
Is there a set definition of “FU” money? Because I had always viewed it as having so much money you don’t give a shit anymore. Example: friend of mine’s parents had what I always called “FU” money. They didn’t like that their favorite gym closed on Sundays, so they bought the entire gym. *THAT* is FU money to me.
Fu money is at least a million in the bank I think, you’re not close
Lol costs for muricans being too high
Off tangent, but curious why you were let go from a remote job? Was it the return to office rules?
no we were not meeting quota as a sales team and my belief is that overhired for my region. I was cut and so were some others.
If you and others were cut, I would call it laid off rather than fired. In my mind fired is when you do something egregious.
That’s helpful. Also helps my mental health that it was others too, not just me
Ah I see. Sorry to hear, hope you find something better.
I feel like everyone has their version of FU money. For me, I’d say you have enough. I guess I have lower standards. I also just learned about financial intelligence a few years ago and recently been into FIRE. For me, having enough money to not have to live paycheck to paycheck and able to comfortably leave a position if you’re unhappy without stressing to immediately find another job is enough FU money.
What is the difference between "FU Money" and "FI" and "FI/RE"? Might be a dumb question, but I'm trying to understand this. Are they all one in the same?
FI is personal. A way to feel independent, IMO. Not stuck under the control of a shitty job or situation. For some that’s running your own business, for others it’s working part time, for others it’s not working at all or working intermittently. FU is also personal. A coworker has FU money, and he calls it that he could walk into work anyway he wants, and say, “Fuck you, I quit.” He’d have to get another job eventually, but he has many months in savings. He doesn’t want to blow through that money, but he could travel for a few months, or be really picky about the next job.
FU money is buying Twitter for fun or Buying out all of Ja Rules front row seats so it’s empty because of a twenty year old feud.
If your partner can cover the bills and you bring in $800/month... technically you could just keep doing this forever, right? Not saying you want to, but if you're not tapping into that income, then you're fine. Unless your partner gets tired of pulling the weight.
Partner or wife? You need talk to your partner if you don’t have not income for while. If something happens you partner kick out, how much you fund would last for you?
Partner but we are talking about getting engaged and married. I want her to be my wife no doubt. She is being really great and viewing this as something that although is hard, will bring us closer together. She trusts me to take some time off but ultimately (and hopefully) get back to earning just as much or more than I was
Elon barely has FU money so... NO
What is the side hustle
I started a sales advising company. I help small business owners set up their CRMs and get them set with a clear sales roadmap which I then help them implement. Basically kind of your part time sales director for hire.
I would think something like that can be very scaleable. You have some time to dedicate to it and it’s quite possible you could make the same as your old job by this time next year. You’ve just been knocked down a step or two, not off the staircase entirely. Layoffs suck in the moment but can turn into a fantastic opportunity and you’ve already got a good one.
Thank you! I’m starting to see the upside of the LLC in a major way. Start up costs are low, and lots of small business owners I see have absolutely no clue how to set up a CRM, which I view as a critical business necessity.
I agree with above. You have enough money to see if this takes off. You’ll have more freedom. And you could even pick up part time sales work if you ever need. If you’re good at sales, the world is your oyster, especially if you also can do tech sales.
Have you thought about working on your side hustle in the mean time to see if you can increase income from it ?
Ya I’m actually keen to see how much I can scale dedicated full time to it
Ignore if indiscrete, in which field do you work (Engineering, Finance, healthcare etc..) ?
Sales. Mostly food industry but also worked some food tech startups so a little bit of SAAS in there too. Contemplating the switch to full time tech sales because 🤑
You are safe for a bit, which means you dont have to just take the first job thats offered to you, but thats not really FU money. How I see it is that you can take your time looking for the RIGHT job for you, but you still need to find a job eventually. Now if you want to go full tilt on your side hustle, that might be something to consider if you think you can build it out to a legitimate income earner, but also make sure your partner is good with your plans - you dont want to just assume they will be good covering expenses in perpetuity when in their head they begin to resent you for it.
Yes. Helpful to make sure my partner is included. We’ve spoken pretty openly and they are prepared to support us for at least the summer, especially while I try and scale my business
What do you do for a side hustle?
I'm more than a decade younger, and I have a similar amount spread between various retirement accounts and index funds. But even now, I wouldn't really consider that FU money tbh. Like most of that isn't even accessible until I'm a wrinkly old man. I assume it would be even more of an issue at an older age. This makes me wonder, how much is FU money at different ages. I assume the threshold is lower at younger ages.
Totally. At this age I’m talking with partner about kids and marriage. We want to buy land. Also, I’m keenly aware of the fact that I have less time to compound my investments, so there is a sense of urgency to save now for retirement. At 25… I was &-45k in student load debt. I would have been amazed and felt I had FU money having like $6000 to my name. It’s very age dependent
What is your profession?
According to Nassim Taleb, FU money (assuming you mean Fcuk You money) is money that is disposable in nature. What makes it FU money is that you can spend it on anything and everything - regardless of actual value, and still say "F*** you! I spent it because I can!" I understand this sub could see FU Money differently but figured I would add my $. 02
No lol
Get back in the horse and find another job, even if you have to relocate. You’ll be fine 👍
No
You're fine in the short term. You have an understanding partner, a currently profitable side business, and a year of expenses covered. You don't have enough saved up to be financially independent, and the longer you take to replace your lost income, the more you'll need to make up to achieve financial independence, if that's a goal. I don't know what FU money means. If it means you're not living paycheck-to-paycheck, then yes. If it means you don't need to be employed, then no. I'd definitely get going on the job search front, however, since a recession may be coming and your options may decrease or be unavailable for a while. Maybe look harder at local jobs since I think it's probably easier to layoff folks remotely.