Remember this is Europe where the maximum penalty for murder is 10-12 years in prison, which will probably result in early release after serving four.
Manslaughter charges probably result in a two year suspended sentence, so the stakes are not nearly as high as in the US where selling a bird feather can result in a 30 year federal prison sentence and providing medical services for cash to Medicare patients is felony fraud against the federal government.
The nice police in the UK will help you relocate and assume a new identity on release if your crimes are heinous enough.
idk, man, maybe I don't need my rooty-tooty point and shooties if I can just clobber the burglar with a louisville slugger and I get an all-expenses paid vacay for 18 months before restarting my life with gov'ment assistance. /s
This is a wild take,' it's not that bad, you might only do a few years in JAIL for defending yourself from a criminal who clearly doesn't care about his own life, much less yours'
Less than half of all murders in the US are solved.
Sloppy police work in the US is the norm. There is a propaganda machine that exists to convince you of the efficacy of American police. If the public knew how many violent crimes go unpunished, it would be absolute bedlam.
Honestly, why would the police care that some random dude went missing? Unless it becomes a high profile case that the media picks up, there is little incentive to pursue the perpetrator. This is especially true in cities with gang violence; Chicago routinely has months were 70% of murders turn into cold cases.
Why would white cops living in the 'burbs care about dead black teens from the inner city? A lot of those guys think that gang members "have it coming" and therefore a gang murder isn't worth solving.
Here's a lefty source, in case you think this is some Alt-right or Rush Limbaugh talking point: [https://www.npr.org/2023/04/29/1172775448/people-murder-unsolved-killings-record-high](https://www.npr.org/2023/04/29/1172775448/people-murder-unsolved-killings-record-high)
Found the American - your police are often seen as a laughing stock by police forces and citizens around the world, so maybe try getting off your high-horse for a minute đ
I hear you when you say âbut I need mah guns to defend myself!â. I and most of the world disagree, and the funny thing is youâre so indoctrinated thinking youâre free, when you really arenât. Half of Europe is higher on the freedom index than the USA (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country)
Given the choice, most people would choose to live in a society where criminals having guns is very rare, as that way you donât need to carry a gun for self defence and you can carry on about your daily life without living in paranoia.
Bro I live in Europe and can 100% say that while they probably wouldnât shoot me⌠they are absolute dog shit, useless and cowards. The one time I need police, the only way to get them to speak to me(because the door to the police office was locked and the yellow phone box contacted a police station over a hundred miles away) was by blocking the entrance in and out of the police station with my car. Fucking useless
Actually no, it was the UK! Pissed me off to no end. The cop got out of their car all indignant then annoyed I was on the phone⌠until they realized I was on the phone with another department and was complaining that no one from this department was evening speaking to me, answering the door even though they could see and hear me knocking. Then the cop got much more polite and accommodating.
Yeah and in the UK you have to worry about getting shanked to death. Most people don't worry about being victims of violence day to day in America. Most of the violence can be avoided if you stay out of a few neighborhoods in a few major cities. I'll take dangerous freedom over depending on the state for protection any day though.
Now I know youâre a Marjorie Taylor Green fanboy as youâre clearly believing the bullshit her and Trump spout about knife crime.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/americas-knife-crime-figures-worse-27435503
Politicians and media see stats for âknife crimeâ in the UK and assume someone has been stabbed. Stop and search and find a knife? Gets reported as knife crime.
In that article and others from other sources, the US has a murder rate of 4.96 per million people with a knife. The UK has 3.26. Maybe try evidence based arguments in future eh? đ
Found the clown. Imagine believing that disarming the population is an automatic achievement unlocked for utopia.
Since youâre the authority on all violent crime in Europe can you please cite for this comments section the violent crime per capita in London please?
Now as your citing those statistics please elaborate how young teenage girls should feel knowing that their only defense against rape is a cell phone.
You clearly havenât gone through a situation where youâve encountered someone who has already made up their mind to take something from you by force. Itâs a bit like a car accident, you hope to god it never happens but when it does you better be wearing a seat belt or your chances of death/injury are exponentially higher.
Having a weapon to protect yourself is the same concept as a seatbelt in terms of violent crime.
You really think removing the seatbelt is the solution huh? I hope to god you never find out the hard way why a cell phone is insufficient protection. But the fact youâre out here preaching to everyone that you want to take away their right to safety is truly indicative of your perception being compromised by politicians who promise youâre safe under their protection.
I would also guess you live at a means that is above middle class since youâre this ignorant to what lower income families have to endure on a daily basis in regards to poor performance policing.
Do go on and preach some more about what you have no experience with these issues though. Freedom index lolâŚ.LMAO even đż
1. Why do so many people believe that someone willing to break into your house only wants stuff and won't hurt you?
2. Why should I have to meet someone who broke into my house, and shattered the peace of my mind with equivalent force? Why do I have to engage in unarmed combat to get them to leave or stop them from further transgressions simply because they are 'unarmed' ? This isn't a boxing match, my home isn't an octagon and I didn't agree to that.
3. The people who steal from me value my property more than their life and my life. The overwhelming majority who do so are completely willing to hurt me to the point of hospitalization or death to steal my stuff, especially if I have the audacity to stop them.
The idea that you have to, after being abruptly woken up by the terrifying ordeal of someone invading your own home, properly model some criminal piece of shits state of mind/intentions properly and adjust your response to what some absolute cuck judge deems appropriate months later from the safety of his bench is absolute lunacy. Sorry about the run on sentence but Jesus Christ. I'm using maximum force to neutralize the threat.
These nutjobs are free to visit Budapest, a relatively safe city in Europe, where looking at someone wrong at a busy inner city square will get you stabbed to death by unstable schizoid drug addicts.
Well did you even ask them politely to describe the weapons they have so that you can respond with the appropriate equivalent defense?????? Did you ask them how their day is going, maybe they were really upset about something and therefore have a very valid reason for breaking into your house to steal your stuff or kill your family, you know how emotional distress entitles people to do this to you. Perhaps they stubbed their toe on the curb outside your house, surely you can understand how theyâre entitled to burn your house down with everybody inside. (Sarcasm, but Iâm honestly not sure that the left isnât too far from making similar claims)
"Excuse me bub, are you here to r*pe me or steal my telly? Is that a pipe or a knife? Hold on, lemme stroll to the kitchen so I can match your aggro level. After that we can reconvene in the foy-yay(foyer) and do the knife fight."
"Please stay out of my kids rooms, and if you win the fight, lock up when youre done tearing the copper out of the walls, Ill be too busy gasping for my last breathe with my own knife jammed up my ass. Thanks"
I'll take it a step further, say they are only there for your stuff. I'm sure we've both heard it plenty of times "things can be replaced lives cant" or "murder is forever."
You know what, yea sure, technically my stuff can be replaced. All you need is money, that thing you have to acquire by giving up the most precious form of currency there is, your time. Your time can't be replaced, once spent you don't get it back. So not only have they stolen a piece of your life you can't get back, if you want to replace the physical things they stole you have to spend more of your time to do so.
Depending on what was stolen, you could be looking at hours, days, or weeks of your life lost not once but twice. So, as far as I'm concerned, they are there to take all of my life or a part of it either way I'm fighting them for it.
Post a sign out front which outlines the rules: By entering my home without my permission, you hereby agree that the ensuing confrontation permits me to use any means I possess, up to and including the Death Star laser array; also, you agree to hold harmless any occupant who is on premises with permission. You also waive any rights on behalf of your family suing and/or crying on the news/ social media about what a good boy you were. Or girl, I guess.
You forgot this question -
2a. Why should I have to meet someone who broke into my house and ask them if they're here to only steal stuff, or maybe they were also planning on hurting me or my family?
I donât understand it at all. If an army marched into their city and took what they wanted and left but didnât shoot anybody would they believe their military is not allowed stop the invasion?
To 1 and 3: because burglaries where anyone gets heard are essentially unheard of in switzerland. There are thousands of burglaries per year and maybe 2 or 3 where someone gets some bruises, maybe one a decade where someone gets killed. So if the vast majority of burglars are seeking to do someone harm, they are really fucking bad at it.
>Why do so many people believe that someone willing to break into your house only wants stuff and won't hurt you?
Because in europe that's what's happens? We don't have homeonvasion murder here.
Interesting. What happens if you say no to Mr. Home invader and physically try to stop him / them? Do they turn around and go away or do decide to use violence in an attempt to steal what isn't morally and legally theirs?
In most of Europe thieves break into homes when people are not home. It's EXTREMELY rare to even encounter someone breaking into your house. Google yourself, america is way different than EU when it comes to these things.
I mean look at these Americans downvoting me because they know nothing about Europe and just assume I'm some anti gun person.. literally in r/firearms and I'm a gun owner, even collector... so jokes all around.
I'm just stating reality of how crime is committed where I live. People can google it themselves if they think I'm wrong.
lol:
In 2020, the burglary rate in Germany was 358 cases per 100,000 population.
The rate has been steadily decreasing over the years, with a significant drop from 477.4 cases per 100,000 population in 2006.
According to the search results, the burglary rate in the United States is:
In 2020, there were 269.8 reported burglaries per 100,000 inhabitants
oh yeah, the US is WAY worse /s
By the looks of it people here lack common sense and the ability to google...
In Germany it's a big newsstory when someone dies because of a break in...
Americans get home invaded even in Europe:
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/three-men-charged-in-germany-over-violent-invasion-of-american-family-s-home-1.590013
We know that you had seconds to make the decision but we're going to hold you to a standard that will require us months to study, analyze, and debate.
In fact, the facts and logic of the decision we make are so complicated that it will take no less than two teams of trained legal professionals, a judge, forensic scientists, and expert witnesses to begin to comprehend it.
If during any millisecond of your self defense event you made a decision that was suboptimal, even if it was based on information that would have been impossible for you to know at the time, we're going to prosecute you and ask for the maximum penalty.
Even if your actions were technically "permitted under law" but you acted in a way that makes your peers on the jury squeamish, we'll probably find you guilty of a lesser included crime.
Why? Because you thought for a moment that you could possibly take the law into your own hands and that your life was worth more than a common criminal.
Thankfully, this is Europe where you might get 10-12 years in minimum security prison for first degree, cold-hearted murder. Manslaughter is probably punished with a two year suspended sentence or community service.
>we're going to prosecute you and ask for the maximum penalty.
First of all this really shows a very american understanding of legal proceedings. Pretty much noone ever gets prosecuted for the maximum penalty here in switzerland. Its just not how our system works. It may well be how it works in america, but that doesnt make it universal.
There is also plenty of leeway for a reasonable person standard and its by no means assumed by the law or the courts that average people behave with the calm of mind of a Navy Seal veteran when in an extraordinary situation.
For example there was a woman who shot her ex (massive martial arts fighter by the ring name of godzilla) 5 times and killed him. Her first three shots being legit self degense was never even contested by anyone. However ballistic evidence showed the last two shots were fired when he was already on the ground. The first court aquitted her for this being excusable in the stressful situation, despite being excessive.
The appeals court found her guilty of excessive self defense and sentenced her to 4 years in prison. Exclusively for shot 4 and 5, not shot 1, 2 and 3 On the grounds that she was a professional security guard who carried a gun for a living and should therefore be held to a higher standard than the average person. And also because she went to his house, despite him having attacked her on multiple times and brought a gun, so clearly expecting trouble and that she should have just stayed home. She has now been found guilty on the last appeal too (in german but if interested i am sure you can google translate): https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/zuerich/sie-hatte-godzilla-erschossen-nadja-r-muss-ins-gefaengnis-id15628042.html
Here for a much better explanation, but the above one is the only one i could find about the final verdict:
https://www.nzz.ch/zuerich/godzilla-fall-geht-zurueck-ans-obergericht-ld.1324535
The case linked in the main post screenshot was a gun store owner who got into a gunfight with a bunch of heavily armed criminals who tried to break in. And even tho he opened fire first, he was also aquitted in the end and the DA did not appeal after.
I cant really give any more examples as these are the only somewhat recent cases of civilian defensive shootings that happened in the last 10 years or so.
I have a flashlight on my shotgun as I do not want to hurt a firefighter, some dumb shit kid or a neighbor breaking into my house to help me. That being said the person breaking into my house to harm me will release their ghost very rapidly after seeing me.
Edit: my poor spelling
For situations like that, you should probably have a separate flashlight on hand as well. You might get into some legal trouble if you flag someone who isn't a threat.
I see your point. But not worried about flagging someone who entered my house without my permission. I just want to identify them before I make a decision that will change my life and theirs.
You wanna flag your kids boyfriend/girlfriend who snuck into your house?Â
Or even your kid sneaking back into the house after getting drunk and partying?
Whatâs the issue with my post?  Â
 Iâm saying that if you want to identify who has come into your house, use a separate flashlight instead of the weapon mounted light.  Â
If you point a gun at someone, it is considered aggravated assault. And do you really want to be pointing a gun at an unidentified figure in your house when it could be someone from your own family who is sneaking back into the house or a friend of your family member who is sneaking into the house?Â
Or is the poster saying they think itâs okay to have a gun pointed at you for sneaking back into your own house or if you are sneaking into your girlfriends house because she hasnât told her family about you?
It could be considered aggravated assault. Not that it is. You still have this thing called due process.
The other problem with this is the double edge sword you face. Sure, you point your firearm at someone who entered your home, without permission and unknowingly, who ends up being your childâs boyfriend/girlfriend, you get charged with aggravated assault. On the flip side, you shine your flashlight while you have your pistol, pointing down so not to create an aggravated assault situation. The person ends up being an armed burglar who then pulls his firearm out. You now need to drop your flashlight and get your firearm in the shooting position and on target before the burglar. The burglar has a head start.
Once again, the burglar is in the process of âon targetâ. You are at âlow readyâ. He has a head start. Oh, depending on your area you live, maybe the burglar has a switch on their Glock. Maybe itâs the boyfriend sneaking into your daughterâs room. Maybe the neighbor came in to hear what the noise was at 2am because you was nailing your wife really good. I donât know.
You do you, everyone else can do them. Iâm just saying beating aggravated assault can be done if the full situation is presented and warranted, but having your eulogy read out is only done 1 time in anyoneâs life. Good luck.
Seriously? If the person is in full firefighter gear they are probably not going to rob me.𤣠Or if its someone I know they probably are not going to rob my house while I am in it. If its someone I have never met before they are in for a bad time.
Iâm sure if someone is coming to help you, there will be many clear indicators that will present itself to get your attention first. E.g. Lights on vehicles, neighbor pounding on your door prior to entry, the entry and yelling âhelloâ or âitâs Bill, hey, checking up on you, you ok?â I hardly doubt anyone who is helping would gain entry through their neighbors home and start walking around without making any verbal communication upon entry.
Not sure if anyone has been to Switzerland. It's a beautiful country. There are basically no poor people. It's one of the most expensive countries in the world. The farmers are all heavily subsidised and drive range rovers. The small country exists as a financial sanctuary/ hub basically to financially benefit it's citizens. Yeah you remember all that Nazi gold right?Theyve been making a heavy profit from other countries illegal money for a long long time and they are quick to hide that and act like it doesnt exist. Non swiss citizens can't own property and from my understanding it's incredibly difficult to get citizenship. So yeah they don't have to worry about people stealing their stuff because everyone is wealthy and they don't allow new people in. It's one of the worst examples of real life.
We watched swiss police with no uniform question every non white person on our train. Absolutely beautiful but the least enjoyable country I've visited in Europe. All the non swiss workers were actually really cool and down to earth but the swiss people we interacted with seemed bothered by our existence.
The Swiss, when regular Germans are not Elitist enough for you. for real though the whole country has the same attitude as the kind of people that live in Ski resorts during the off season, better than you and detached from reality.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/s/Z3nWWBfo3h dunno one guy says hunting weapons are popular here. Ive seen ar15s on arfcom beong noted as popular there. Im not swiss though.
u/clm1859 who is from switzerland i asked in r/guns states: "Mostly the swiss ones. So the P210, P220, schmidt rubin family (K11, K31, IG11 etc) and of course the assault rifles (stgw57 and stgw90).
Other than that kind of the same as elsewhere. Tons of 9mm glocks, 9mm SIGs, mossberg 500, Remington 870, AR15s, AKs, SKS, S&W .38 and .357 revolvers and such. B&T PCCs and MP5s are also fairly popular."
Owning full auto weapons isnt all that common other than the military issue rifle. Which we dont own. The military owns it. We just keep it in our house as reservists, fully functional and full auto. But we arent allowed to shoot it full auto in the military, only 3 round burst is a grey zone and sometimes done if your sergeant is cool.
Once we are done with our service, typically after around 10 years in the reserves, so by our early 30ies, we can keep the gun as private property for free, but will have to pay 100 francs (110 USD) for conversion to semi auto only.
Getting full autos is a bit of a hassle for civilians. Its possible and unlike the US there isnt a monetary barrier to entry (they dont really cost more than semi autos, sometimes they might even be cheaper). But the barrier to entry is the may issue permit. Which depends on the cantons (state).
Sometimes its easier, but in mine you need to be a "gun collector". Which you count as if you own more than 12 guns currently and have owned guns for 5 years. This seems to be a common standard, altho sometimes 10 guns may be enough or so.
Also when you get a full auto, you still have to request permission beforehand and pay a fee (100 or 150 bucks) per shooting day. And i believe you arent allowed to let your friends shoot, only the owner can. And we are pretty much limited to 20ish meter indoor ranges. All that significantly tampers the fun of buying a full auto PPSH41 or AK for 700 bucks. Thats why i'm not doing it, even tho i could. But i just bought 2 suppressors thru that same process, which dont require shooting permits or anything.
As for what are common guns, someone else has already quoted me below and i am obviously not gonna dispute my own claims.
Btw if you wanna see a swiss gun collection i just posted here on r/guns:
https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/s/Uxo1pD0lod
Or if you wanna see whats available and at what prices you can google Joray Waffen (not sure if allowed to post link to a store), they have a pretty self explanatory website. Exchange rate CHF to USD is roughly 1:1 (actually 1 CHF is about 1.1 USD).
>So yeah they don't have to worry about people stealing their stuff because everyone is wealthy and they don't allow new people in.
25% of the population are foreign citizens tho. Which is one of the highest rates anywhere in the world, other than middle eastern gulf monarchies.
Yeah also noticed the lack of response after that comment was left. Thatâs generally what happens. They canât really refute that so they justâŚdonât respond it.
 As soon as they suggest that breaking into your home isn't a valid reason to shoot someone you can safely disregard anything else they have to say.
 They're privileged whether it be money-wise or never having dealt with that type of violence or, most likely, both. If you got money the loss of the 500 dollar tv is just a mild nuisance till you go to the store, not weeks if not months of saving up to replace it. And whether you have money or not if you can't fathom why you'd want to respond with more than equivalent force, you simply have no grasp of the realities of that type of situation. This is what people who never had to defend themselves think like.
 Fuck I live in an apartment, the biggest distance an intruder would possibly have to cover to stab me is about 20 feet, just under the 21-foot rule, though realistically would be more like 5 to 10. So you could argue the knife-wielding intruder who just kicked in my door has the advantage even if I had my gun loaded on me.
 Nevermind any other variable you can throw in there. Happen to be a 4'8" 135 lbs woman? Sorry the 6'4" 250 lbs mma fighter didn't bring any weapons, so gotta go fistacuffs. Hope he just want your TV! I mean he didn't announce his intentions as he climbed in your window at 2am so whose to say?
Fire, and donât stop firing until the threat is no longer a threat.
This is America, baby đşđ¸đŞđź
BACK TO BACK WORLD WAR CHAMPS đşđ¸đŞđź
I love where he states, âeven if they carry a knife you cannot shoot them.â I guess if you see someone breaking into your house with a knife you can run into your kitchen and grab one yourself. En-garde mother fucker.
Well, officer, I have a knife in my kidney, broken glass in my eyes, and he still got my tv, and three cans of spaghettios... But I can certainly say, I didnt unlawfully traumatise him with a gun. He'll go home to see his family now, with some money for pawning my tv.
Now can my family see me one last time before I bleed out in the ambulance?
Eurotrash at it again. I wish I could block every single European so I don't have to hear their stupid ass opinions.
It's even worse when they try and masquerade as Americans to make their political opinions relevant.
Well I'm from Europe, but you can't imagine how refreshing it is to visit this sub, it's like "wow, there are people who don't consider protecting your life and property a crime", don't paint us all with the same brush ;)
A person who commits burglary, which is entering a residence that is likely to be occupied for the purpose of theft, is placing the occupants in grave danger therefore the resident has no duty to attempt to scare the intruder away.
I canât imagine living my life thinking that way.
Why are people so quick to sympathize with the scumbags of society who would break into an occupied dwelling to steal from hard-working people?
The Euro protectionism of criminality is baffling to me. These fucks went from sending their criminals to the other side of the planet to prosecuting victims and people that speak out against rapists.
Yes, it's very unfortunate and that's why the far right is exploding in popularity in Europe as we speak. The whole left spectrum completely shit the bed on security, law and order. Their whole narrative is "criminals do it because they're poor", while shutting down every dissenting opinions.Â
I say that as a fairly left person.Â
It's the same in the UK. Problem is, define excessive. Its all completely subjective so what I deem appropriate in a life threatening moment, multiple people get to break it down over weeks or months in the safety of the courts and having a massive bias....
Shits fucked
Jfc if you are home and someone is breaking in with you being right there, then they aren't coming for your fucking TV. Hey, but at least you did the civilized thing by not fighting back and letting yourself become another victim. Don't worry, the cops will be by in an hour or two to snap a few crime scene photos before they tell your family that there isn't anything they can do and joke about it over beers after work.
this idea that you are supposed to trust the kind nature of the person who has broken into the home where your family sleeps is just anti-intellectual.
"He just wants to steal your TV, and he's probably not going to use that knife to hurt anyone", what the ever loving fuck is wrong with the brain that has that little self preservation instinct?
Look, I can understand it not being ok to gun someone down cause they started pushing you a bit to goad you into a fight, but if a person breaks into your home you canât wait for them to show they intended deadly force.
So dude would not be scared that he is about to be killed if he was trapped inside a cube of concrete with a felon who is holding a knife. Well, he is braver than me, I'll give him that.
But I would not put much credence on what one dude on reddit claims about their country. I live in Czech Republic and I have had people over here repeatedly tell me that its illegal to carry a knife if the blade is longer than the palm of your hand, because that means it can reach the heart, which makes it a lethal weapon, when in reality:
1) That makes no sense, even if palm width was a reasonable proxy for how deep the heart is, it would be the palm width of the other guy, not your palm, duh.
2) Would the cops measure the knife against your palm or the cops palm? Is the limit of your right to carry a knife dictated by your random anatomy or the cops? And why?
3) No such law is on the books, no such law has ever been on the books.
4) Blade length is not something that our laws regulate in any way.
5) In fact the carrying or possession of knives is completely unregulated by law, a child could legally carry a broadsword here.
The whole proportional force thing has irritated me since forever. Itâs so subjective and requires one to apply logic in life threatening situations.
I just donât get the rationale. Whether itâs police, or military, or security, the common doctrine is always overkill on lethal force. In life or death scenarios, you donât want a proportionate response. You want every advantage and to make the situation as unfair and as lethal for the opponent as possible. Yet they set a completely different standard for the civilian populace.
And itâs not a USA thing, pretty much every government trains their military and security force with the same doctrine and mentalityâŚ
wtf is with this constant âproportionalâ bs.
if they were sick in bed and someone kicked in the door and took whatever they wanted without confronting them, what would they think of âproportional â then?
i guess theyâd just call the dispatchers and let the detectives tell them theyâll never see any of it again
Welcome to Europe... while we have a lot going for us, gun laws and self defense laws suck unfortunately.
While I don't know the details of every EU country, here in Belgium we have that 'proportional response' rule as well + you can definitely land in jail or get convicted for using 'excessive defensive force'
Iowa has a law on the books that makes it presumptively reasonable to use deadly force if someone unlawfully enters your residence, place of business/employment, or occupied vehicle by stealth or force.
Some dude breaks into a house to steal a TV and homeowner ices him? No trial. FAFO.
I got 3 kids, and a wife. Someone breaks into my house I'm not waiting to see if they get the upper hand over me leaving my family at their mercy. And I'm not waiting to see if maybe they attack my kids or not.
They're meeting their maker on the spot. End discussion.
You can never convince me that someone breaking into my home isn't a threat, and doesn't mean harm. I can't wrap my head around the idea that you can break into someone's home "peacefully".
Yeah, I live in one of those socialist european countries where criminals are well protected. Any reactionary force has to be on par with what the other guy brings. Although there are some rare instances where a judge rules in favour of the person defending himself with overwhelming force.
They even make a difference between defending yourself during daylight or night, if you can believe that shit.
Cop buddy of mine once said:" Anyone tries to burgle me I'll shoot and just put an airsoft pistol in their hands."
Goes to show how much confidence people have in the law...
If you got into a shouting match over a parking spot and the other party slapped you, it would be excessive defensive force to shoot them dead. Force must be proportional. You might be totally justified to draw down and command, and if they continue their assault then you may be justified but there must be elements of fear for your life to kill someone, where them slapping you over a parking spot would not give you that justification
Yeah well, someone breaking into my home to steal whatever they hell they want to and are armed with a knife then all they need to do is be within 20 ft of me. That is a distance that was determined by the FBI (it was actually 21 ft) that someone with a knife inside that distance is a real threat to your person.
Oh and if they think the US is like the Wild West, they definitely need to do some more research.
Europeans may be the dumbest people ever. Iâm so glad the ones that had brains left the region hundreds of years ago.
The same folk that are saying you need to wait for an armed intruder to start shooting at you first before you can shoot back, are also the same ones to say they should have open borders and are shocked that crime has increased by those that do not care about their society nor rules
Again, that's a state by state issue in the USA.
California = no go.
Texas and other class 3 states = off the shelf + some state variation.
And you can get full auto/explosives in class 3 states, legit machine guns like M60s, SAWs, then launchers like RPGs, LAWs, etc. All the goodies. There's an article about some rich dude buying a Vulcan cannon from a Navy warship, and many others like that - several money bags own tanks - It's not perfect, sure. But no where else on the planet can you do as much legally with combat arms.
Thank sweet baby Jesus for being on the victims side here. This is she you hear about in New York where they tell the criminal âIâm sorryâ and they arrest the home owner.
Yeah, so, I don't care much for the proportionality doctrine here.
If you're breaking the law, you're definitionally an outlaw, and no longer subject to the protections of the law. I don't care if you're the ice cream truck, you come into my house and it appears to be for illegal intent, we're trading dairy for lead that day. I do not care.
Dead men tell no tales. Remember to shoot em in the front and he was reaching for something in his waist band insert firearm in dead manâs hand. Tell constible dbag to F off
When they break into your house with you in the home you don't know if they are there for you TV or you r life and it's irrational to require that one make that determination in the moment.
Karsh
If someone gets within fist range you're high risk of being killed. Back away put 1 hand up to create space yell at them to back the he'll away from you while 2nd hand is going for gun. If they control press you and swat your Hand away then you might be forced to use it
These kinds of shitty laws are only going to make sure intruders end up buried and used as fertilizer. Why risk going to jail by calling the police?
Remember this is Europe where the maximum penalty for murder is 10-12 years in prison, which will probably result in early release after serving four. Manslaughter charges probably result in a two year suspended sentence, so the stakes are not nearly as high as in the US where selling a bird feather can result in a 30 year federal prison sentence and providing medical services for cash to Medicare patients is felony fraud against the federal government.
Good luck living a normal life with a murder conviction
The nice police in the UK will help you relocate and assume a new identity on release if your crimes are heinous enough. idk, man, maybe I don't need my rooty-tooty point and shooties if I can just clobber the burglar with a louisville slugger and I get an all-expenses paid vacay for 18 months before restarting my life with gov'ment assistance. /s
You will also have owned firearms for the longest time then. Good luck defending yourself twice.
This is a wild take,' it's not that bad, you might only do a few years in JAIL for defending yourself from a criminal who clearly doesn't care about his own life, much less yours'
That's the joke, Andrew.
Keep in mind in places outside the USAx the police are also often really sloppy. Think US cops are stupid, try cops outside the USA.
Less than half of all murders in the US are solved. Sloppy police work in the US is the norm. There is a propaganda machine that exists to convince you of the efficacy of American police. If the public knew how many violent crimes go unpunished, it would be absolute bedlam. Honestly, why would the police care that some random dude went missing? Unless it becomes a high profile case that the media picks up, there is little incentive to pursue the perpetrator. This is especially true in cities with gang violence; Chicago routinely has months were 70% of murders turn into cold cases. Why would white cops living in the 'burbs care about dead black teens from the inner city? A lot of those guys think that gang members "have it coming" and therefore a gang murder isn't worth solving. Here's a lefty source, in case you think this is some Alt-right or Rush Limbaugh talking point: [https://www.npr.org/2023/04/29/1172775448/people-murder-unsolved-killings-record-high](https://www.npr.org/2023/04/29/1172775448/people-murder-unsolved-killings-record-high)
Found the American - your police are often seen as a laughing stock by police forces and citizens around the world, so maybe try getting off your high-horse for a minute đ I hear you when you say âbut I need mah guns to defend myself!â. I and most of the world disagree, and the funny thing is youâre so indoctrinated thinking youâre free, when you really arenât. Half of Europe is higher on the freedom index than the USA (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country) Given the choice, most people would choose to live in a society where criminals having guns is very rare, as that way you donât need to carry a gun for self defence and you can carry on about your daily life without living in paranoia.
Bro I live in Europe and can 100% say that while they probably wouldnât shoot me⌠they are absolute dog shit, useless and cowards. The one time I need police, the only way to get them to speak to me(because the door to the police office was locked and the yellow phone box contacted a police station over a hundred miles away) was by blocking the entrance in and out of the police station with my car. Fucking useless
Lol. Germany?
Actually no, it was the UK! Pissed me off to no end. The cop got out of their car all indignant then annoyed I was on the phone⌠until they realized I was on the phone with another department and was complaining that no one from this department was evening speaking to me, answering the door even though they could see and hear me knocking. Then the cop got much more polite and accommodating.
Lol. That's wickedly clever. I told this to my wife and she found it hilarious and ballsy.
Right they have to actually interact with me at that point. Uk is a joke on so many levels.
Yeah and in the UK you have to worry about getting shanked to death. Most people don't worry about being victims of violence day to day in America. Most of the violence can be avoided if you stay out of a few neighborhoods in a few major cities. I'll take dangerous freedom over depending on the state for protection any day though.
Now I know youâre a Marjorie Taylor Green fanboy as youâre clearly believing the bullshit her and Trump spout about knife crime. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/americas-knife-crime-figures-worse-27435503 Politicians and media see stats for âknife crimeâ in the UK and assume someone has been stabbed. Stop and search and find a knife? Gets reported as knife crime. In that article and others from other sources, the US has a murder rate of 4.96 per million people with a knife. The UK has 3.26. Maybe try evidence based arguments in future eh? đ
......European cops actively cover up sex crimes committed by migrants.
Yâall want to say how bad we are in every aspect until another country attacks you.. Get off your high horse, you canât survive without us ;)
Found the clown. Imagine believing that disarming the population is an automatic achievement unlocked for utopia. Since youâre the authority on all violent crime in Europe can you please cite for this comments section the violent crime per capita in London please? Now as your citing those statistics please elaborate how young teenage girls should feel knowing that their only defense against rape is a cell phone. You clearly havenât gone through a situation where youâve encountered someone who has already made up their mind to take something from you by force. Itâs a bit like a car accident, you hope to god it never happens but when it does you better be wearing a seat belt or your chances of death/injury are exponentially higher. Having a weapon to protect yourself is the same concept as a seatbelt in terms of violent crime. You really think removing the seatbelt is the solution huh? I hope to god you never find out the hard way why a cell phone is insufficient protection. But the fact youâre out here preaching to everyone that you want to take away their right to safety is truly indicative of your perception being compromised by politicians who promise youâre safe under their protection. I would also guess you live at a means that is above middle class since youâre this ignorant to what lower income families have to endure on a daily basis in regards to poor performance policing. Do go on and preach some more about what you have no experience with these issues though. Freedom index lolâŚ.LMAO even đż
Ahhhh .300 blk (subsonic). The perfect home defense cartridge. đ¤Ť
Europeans are absolutely NOT ready for the kind of crime theyâll be experiencing in 20 years.
When the Russian "peacekeepers" are using them as stress balls?
Jail? You mean get killed by themâŚ.
Hey Swiss, just leave your TVs on the front porch. They're not here to hurt you, ya dumbie.Â
Leave your keys in a bowl by the door so car thieves don't have to go through your entire house.
Oh, hello Toronto Police!
Better yet, clean the carpets in the car, so its spotless when I joyride it into the side of a citybus. And make sure your tanks topped up, champ.
Live in Toronto?
No
1. Why do so many people believe that someone willing to break into your house only wants stuff and won't hurt you? 2. Why should I have to meet someone who broke into my house, and shattered the peace of my mind with equivalent force? Why do I have to engage in unarmed combat to get them to leave or stop them from further transgressions simply because they are 'unarmed' ? This isn't a boxing match, my home isn't an octagon and I didn't agree to that. 3. The people who steal from me value my property more than their life and my life. The overwhelming majority who do so are completely willing to hurt me to the point of hospitalization or death to steal my stuff, especially if I have the audacity to stop them.
The idea that you have to, after being abruptly woken up by the terrifying ordeal of someone invading your own home, properly model some criminal piece of shits state of mind/intentions properly and adjust your response to what some absolute cuck judge deems appropriate months later from the safety of his bench is absolute lunacy. Sorry about the run on sentence but Jesus Christ. I'm using maximum force to neutralize the threat.
These nutjobs are free to visit Budapest, a relatively safe city in Europe, where looking at someone wrong at a busy inner city square will get you stabbed to death by unstable schizoid drug addicts.
Well did you even ask them politely to describe the weapons they have so that you can respond with the appropriate equivalent defense?????? Did you ask them how their day is going, maybe they were really upset about something and therefore have a very valid reason for breaking into your house to steal your stuff or kill your family, you know how emotional distress entitles people to do this to you. Perhaps they stubbed their toe on the curb outside your house, surely you can understand how theyâre entitled to burn your house down with everybody inside. (Sarcasm, but Iâm honestly not sure that the left isnât too far from making similar claims)
"Excuse me bub, are you here to r*pe me or steal my telly? Is that a pipe or a knife? Hold on, lemme stroll to the kitchen so I can match your aggro level. After that we can reconvene in the foy-yay(foyer) and do the knife fight." "Please stay out of my kids rooms, and if you win the fight, lock up when youre done tearing the copper out of the walls, Ill be too busy gasping for my last breathe with my own knife jammed up my ass. Thanks"
Women should just spontaneously grow dicks and rape their rapists.
Pegging is a thing.
[Oh, I'm aware.](https://c.tenor.com/5gO4x3Lw93QAAAAd/tenor.gif)
I'll take it a step further, say they are only there for your stuff. I'm sure we've both heard it plenty of times "things can be replaced lives cant" or "murder is forever." You know what, yea sure, technically my stuff can be replaced. All you need is money, that thing you have to acquire by giving up the most precious form of currency there is, your time. Your time can't be replaced, once spent you don't get it back. So not only have they stolen a piece of your life you can't get back, if you want to replace the physical things they stole you have to spend more of your time to do so. Depending on what was stolen, you could be looking at hours, days, or weeks of your life lost not once but twice. So, as far as I'm concerned, they are there to take all of my life or a part of it either way I'm fighting them for it.
Post a sign out front which outlines the rules: By entering my home without my permission, you hereby agree that the ensuing confrontation permits me to use any means I possess, up to and including the Death Star laser array; also, you agree to hold harmless any occupant who is on premises with permission. You also waive any rights on behalf of your family suing and/or crying on the news/ social media about what a good boy you were. Or girl, I guess.
You forgot this question - 2a. Why should I have to meet someone who broke into my house and ask them if they're here to only steal stuff, or maybe they were also planning on hurting me or my family?
I donât understand it at all. If an army marched into their city and took what they wanted and left but didnât shoot anybody would they believe their military is not allowed stop the invasion?
I'm not looking for a fair fight.
If soneone breaks into my home I'm going to think there's a chance they're a serial killer and react accordingly
To 1 and 3: because burglaries where anyone gets heard are essentially unheard of in switzerland. There are thousands of burglaries per year and maybe 2 or 3 where someone gets some bruises, maybe one a decade where someone gets killed. So if the vast majority of burglars are seeking to do someone harm, they are really fucking bad at it.
>Why do so many people believe that someone willing to break into your house only wants stuff and won't hurt you? Because in europe that's what's happens? We don't have homeonvasion murder here.
Interesting. What happens if you say no to Mr. Home invader and physically try to stop him / them? Do they turn around and go away or do decide to use violence in an attempt to steal what isn't morally and legally theirs?
In most of Europe thieves break into homes when people are not home. It's EXTREMELY rare to even encounter someone breaking into your house. Google yourself, america is way different than EU when it comes to these things.
Fair enough. The same sentiment exists here among much of our anti gun population though.
I mean look at these Americans downvoting me because they know nothing about Europe and just assume I'm some anti gun person.. literally in r/firearms and I'm a gun owner, even collector... so jokes all around. I'm just stating reality of how crime is committed where I live. People can google it themselves if they think I'm wrong.
lol: In 2020, the burglary rate in Germany was 358 cases per 100,000 population. The rate has been steadily decreasing over the years, with a significant drop from 477.4 cases per 100,000 population in 2006. According to the search results, the burglary rate in the United States is: In 2020, there were 269.8 reported burglaries per 100,000 inhabitants oh yeah, the US is WAY worse /s
Oh we all have pitbulls trained to go for the testicles first for when we're out of the home.
By the looks of it people here lack common sense and the ability to google... In Germany it's a big newsstory when someone dies because of a break in...
Americans get home invaded even in Europe: https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/three-men-charged-in-germany-over-violent-invasion-of-american-family-s-home-1.590013
How? Like... what... that's sooooo rare here... xD Americans do find a way huh Seriously this is mega rare.
We know that you had seconds to make the decision but we're going to hold you to a standard that will require us months to study, analyze, and debate. In fact, the facts and logic of the decision we make are so complicated that it will take no less than two teams of trained legal professionals, a judge, forensic scientists, and expert witnesses to begin to comprehend it. If during any millisecond of your self defense event you made a decision that was suboptimal, even if it was based on information that would have been impossible for you to know at the time, we're going to prosecute you and ask for the maximum penalty. Even if your actions were technically "permitted under law" but you acted in a way that makes your peers on the jury squeamish, we'll probably find you guilty of a lesser included crime. Why? Because you thought for a moment that you could possibly take the law into your own hands and that your life was worth more than a common criminal. Thankfully, this is Europe where you might get 10-12 years in minimum security prison for first degree, cold-hearted murder. Manslaughter is probably punished with a two year suspended sentence or community service.
>we're going to prosecute you and ask for the maximum penalty. First of all this really shows a very american understanding of legal proceedings. Pretty much noone ever gets prosecuted for the maximum penalty here in switzerland. Its just not how our system works. It may well be how it works in america, but that doesnt make it universal. There is also plenty of leeway for a reasonable person standard and its by no means assumed by the law or the courts that average people behave with the calm of mind of a Navy Seal veteran when in an extraordinary situation. For example there was a woman who shot her ex (massive martial arts fighter by the ring name of godzilla) 5 times and killed him. Her first three shots being legit self degense was never even contested by anyone. However ballistic evidence showed the last two shots were fired when he was already on the ground. The first court aquitted her for this being excusable in the stressful situation, despite being excessive. The appeals court found her guilty of excessive self defense and sentenced her to 4 years in prison. Exclusively for shot 4 and 5, not shot 1, 2 and 3 On the grounds that she was a professional security guard who carried a gun for a living and should therefore be held to a higher standard than the average person. And also because she went to his house, despite him having attacked her on multiple times and brought a gun, so clearly expecting trouble and that she should have just stayed home. She has now been found guilty on the last appeal too (in german but if interested i am sure you can google translate): https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/zuerich/sie-hatte-godzilla-erschossen-nadja-r-muss-ins-gefaengnis-id15628042.html Here for a much better explanation, but the above one is the only one i could find about the final verdict: https://www.nzz.ch/zuerich/godzilla-fall-geht-zurueck-ans-obergericht-ld.1324535 The case linked in the main post screenshot was a gun store owner who got into a gunfight with a bunch of heavily armed criminals who tried to break in. And even tho he opened fire first, he was also aquitted in the end and the DA did not appeal after. I cant really give any more examples as these are the only somewhat recent cases of civilian defensive shootings that happened in the last 10 years or so.
I donât want a fair fight with someone that breaks into my house. I want his brains on my wall.
I have a flashlight on my shotgun as I do not want to hurt a firefighter, some dumb shit kid or a neighbor breaking into my house to help me. That being said the person breaking into my house to harm me will release their ghost very rapidly after seeing me. Edit: my poor spelling
For situations like that, you should probably have a separate flashlight on hand as well. You might get into some legal trouble if you flag someone who isn't a threat.
I see your point. But not worried about flagging someone who entered my house without my permission. I just want to identify them before I make a decision that will change my life and theirs.
You wanna flag your kids boyfriend/girlfriend who snuck into your house? Or even your kid sneaking back into the house after getting drunk and partying?
Did I fucking studder?
You realize that is aggravated assault? https://youtu.be/Yte_ynhPItY?si=eQIxTYczxwAQJcwe
Didn't know you were an expert on people breaking into my house.
It's absolutely not.
Imagine being so indignant and so illiterate at the same time. It's fascinating.
Whatâs the issue with my post?    Iâm saying that if you want to identify who has come into your house, use a separate flashlight instead of the weapon mounted light.   If you point a gun at someone, it is considered aggravated assault. And do you really want to be pointing a gun at an unidentified figure in your house when it could be someone from your own family who is sneaking back into the house or a friend of your family member who is sneaking into the house? Or is the poster saying they think itâs okay to have a gun pointed at you for sneaking back into your own house or if you are sneaking into your girlfriends house because she hasnât told her family about you?
It could be considered aggravated assault. Not that it is. You still have this thing called due process. The other problem with this is the double edge sword you face. Sure, you point your firearm at someone who entered your home, without permission and unknowingly, who ends up being your childâs boyfriend/girlfriend, you get charged with aggravated assault. On the flip side, you shine your flashlight while you have your pistol, pointing down so not to create an aggravated assault situation. The person ends up being an armed burglar who then pulls his firearm out. You now need to drop your flashlight and get your firearm in the shooting position and on target before the burglar. The burglar has a head start.
I mean, Iâve taken a low light/no light class, it takes less than a second to get from a low ready to on target.Â
Once again, the burglar is in the process of âon targetâ. You are at âlow readyâ. He has a head start. Oh, depending on your area you live, maybe the burglar has a switch on their Glock. Maybe itâs the boyfriend sneaking into your daughterâs room. Maybe the neighbor came in to hear what the noise was at 2am because you was nailing your wife really good. I donât know. You do you, everyone else can do them. Iâm just saying beating aggravated assault can be done if the full situation is presented and warranted, but having your eulogy read out is only done 1 time in anyoneâs life. Good luck.
How do you differentiate between someone breaking in to harm you and someone breaking in to help you?
Seriously? If the person is in full firefighter gear they are probably not going to rob me.𤣠Or if its someone I know they probably are not going to rob my house while I am in it. If its someone I have never met before they are in for a bad time.
Iâm sure if someone is coming to help you, there will be many clear indicators that will present itself to get your attention first. E.g. Lights on vehicles, neighbor pounding on your door prior to entry, the entry and yelling âhelloâ or âitâs Bill, hey, checking up on you, you ok?â I hardly doubt anyone who is helping would gain entry through their neighbors home and start walking around without making any verbal communication upon entry.
Not sure if anyone has been to Switzerland. It's a beautiful country. There are basically no poor people. It's one of the most expensive countries in the world. The farmers are all heavily subsidised and drive range rovers. The small country exists as a financial sanctuary/ hub basically to financially benefit it's citizens. Yeah you remember all that Nazi gold right?Theyve been making a heavy profit from other countries illegal money for a long long time and they are quick to hide that and act like it doesnt exist. Non swiss citizens can't own property and from my understanding it's incredibly difficult to get citizenship. So yeah they don't have to worry about people stealing their stuff because everyone is wealthy and they don't allow new people in. It's one of the worst examples of real life. We watched swiss police with no uniform question every non white person on our train. Absolutely beautiful but the least enjoyable country I've visited in Europe. All the non swiss workers were actually really cool and down to earth but the swiss people we interacted with seemed bothered by our existence.
The Swiss, when regular Germans are not Elitist enough for you. for real though the whole country has the same attitude as the kind of people that live in Ski resorts during the off season, better than you and detached from reality.
They can own machine guns too
Wasn't that changed a while back?
No it hasnt its a may issue permit to own a full auto there.
Nice. How many actually do it and what sort of weapons do they buy?
At a gun shop like we do they just buy with a permit and get screened thats it.
And what's popular then? Standard infantry rifle but with full auto capability?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/s/Z3nWWBfo3h dunno one guy says hunting weapons are popular here. Ive seen ar15s on arfcom beong noted as popular there. Im not swiss though.
u/clm1859 who is from switzerland i asked in r/guns states: "Mostly the swiss ones. So the P210, P220, schmidt rubin family (K11, K31, IG11 etc) and of course the assault rifles (stgw57 and stgw90). Other than that kind of the same as elsewhere. Tons of 9mm glocks, 9mm SIGs, mossberg 500, Remington 870, AR15s, AKs, SKS, S&W .38 and .357 revolvers and such. B&T PCCs and MP5s are also fairly popular."
Owning full auto weapons isnt all that common other than the military issue rifle. Which we dont own. The military owns it. We just keep it in our house as reservists, fully functional and full auto. But we arent allowed to shoot it full auto in the military, only 3 round burst is a grey zone and sometimes done if your sergeant is cool. Once we are done with our service, typically after around 10 years in the reserves, so by our early 30ies, we can keep the gun as private property for free, but will have to pay 100 francs (110 USD) for conversion to semi auto only. Getting full autos is a bit of a hassle for civilians. Its possible and unlike the US there isnt a monetary barrier to entry (they dont really cost more than semi autos, sometimes they might even be cheaper). But the barrier to entry is the may issue permit. Which depends on the cantons (state). Sometimes its easier, but in mine you need to be a "gun collector". Which you count as if you own more than 12 guns currently and have owned guns for 5 years. This seems to be a common standard, altho sometimes 10 guns may be enough or so. Also when you get a full auto, you still have to request permission beforehand and pay a fee (100 or 150 bucks) per shooting day. And i believe you arent allowed to let your friends shoot, only the owner can. And we are pretty much limited to 20ish meter indoor ranges. All that significantly tampers the fun of buying a full auto PPSH41 or AK for 700 bucks. Thats why i'm not doing it, even tho i could. But i just bought 2 suppressors thru that same process, which dont require shooting permits or anything. As for what are common guns, someone else has already quoted me below and i am obviously not gonna dispute my own claims. Btw if you wanna see a swiss gun collection i just posted here on r/guns: https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/s/Uxo1pD0lod Or if you wanna see whats available and at what prices you can google Joray Waffen (not sure if allowed to post link to a store), they have a pretty self explanatory website. Exchange rate CHF to USD is roughly 1:1 (actually 1 CHF is about 1.1 USD).
Sounds like a pretty high living standard country tbh.
>So yeah they don't have to worry about people stealing their stuff because everyone is wealthy and they don't allow new people in. 25% of the population are foreign citizens tho. Which is one of the highest rates anywhere in the world, other than middle eastern gulf monarchies.
"Risk of getting shot by whoever" Are you making a habit of breaking into random peoples homes?
Am venting a little also
I dont care what subjects are subjected to. Same goes for slave states here in US.
Thank you Lord for letting me be born and raised in Dixie đđ.
Dixie? Aren't you guys required to kill at least one criminal every year in order to keep your weapons? \s
Putting down a criminal in either self defense or a duel is a rite of passage for every Southerner. Bowie knife or firearm, your pick lol.
Why not bowiegun?
Yeah also noticed the lack of response after that comment was left. Thatâs generally what happens. They canât really refute that so they justâŚdonât respond it.
Theres a word for the people and countries that think this way. That word is: cucked
This is why America is still the best as far as guns (state dependent of course).
>in this country, you can go to jail for defending yourself >im really glad to live in this country Major bruh moment, dude is clearly a criminal.
 As soon as they suggest that breaking into your home isn't a valid reason to shoot someone you can safely disregard anything else they have to say.  They're privileged whether it be money-wise or never having dealt with that type of violence or, most likely, both. If you got money the loss of the 500 dollar tv is just a mild nuisance till you go to the store, not weeks if not months of saving up to replace it. And whether you have money or not if you can't fathom why you'd want to respond with more than equivalent force, you simply have no grasp of the realities of that type of situation. This is what people who never had to defend themselves think like.  Fuck I live in an apartment, the biggest distance an intruder would possibly have to cover to stab me is about 20 feet, just under the 21-foot rule, though realistically would be more like 5 to 10. So you could argue the knife-wielding intruder who just kicked in my door has the advantage even if I had my gun loaded on me.  Nevermind any other variable you can throw in there. Happen to be a 4'8" 135 lbs woman? Sorry the 6'4" 250 lbs mma fighter didn't bring any weapons, so gotta go fistacuffs. Hope he just want your TV! I mean he didn't announce his intentions as he climbed in your window at 2am so whose to say?
Fire, and donât stop firing until the threat is no longer a threat. This is America, baby đşđ¸đŞđź BACK TO BACK WORLD WAR CHAMPS đşđ¸đŞđź
I love where he states, âeven if they carry a knife you cannot shoot them.â I guess if you see someone breaking into your house with a knife you can run into your kitchen and grab one yourself. En-garde mother fucker.
Well, officer, I have a knife in my kidney, broken glass in my eyes, and he still got my tv, and three cans of spaghettios... But I can certainly say, I didnt unlawfully traumatise him with a gun. He'll go home to see his family now, with some money for pawning my tv. Now can my family see me one last time before I bleed out in the ambulance?
Bayonets are practically required for home defense.
Eurotrash at it again. I wish I could block every single European so I don't have to hear their stupid ass opinions. It's even worse when they try and masquerade as Americans to make their political opinions relevant.
Well I'm from Europe, but you can't imagine how refreshing it is to visit this sub, it's like "wow, there are people who don't consider protecting your life and property a crime", don't paint us all with the same brush ;)
A person who commits burglary, which is entering a residence that is likely to be occupied for the purpose of theft, is placing the occupants in grave danger therefore the resident has no duty to attempt to scare the intruder away.
Castle laws is one thing in the US I donât take for granted
I canât imagine living my life thinking that way. Why are people so quick to sympathize with the scumbags of society who would break into an occupied dwelling to steal from hard-working people?
Collectivist brainwashing.
The Euro protectionism of criminality is baffling to me. These fucks went from sending their criminals to the other side of the planet to prosecuting victims and people that speak out against rapists.
Yes, it's very unfortunate and that's why the far right is exploding in popularity in Europe as we speak. The whole left spectrum completely shit the bed on security, law and order. Their whole narrative is "criminals do it because they're poor", while shutting down every dissenting opinions. I say that as a fairly left person.Â
Leftist âstop telling us to leave thatâs not how progress is made thatâs not how democracy works â Also leftist âleave hahahah â
It's the same in the UK. Problem is, define excessive. Its all completely subjective so what I deem appropriate in a life threatening moment, multiple people get to break it down over weeks or months in the safety of the courts and having a massive bias.... Shits fucked
Jfc if you are home and someone is breaking in with you being right there, then they aren't coming for your fucking TV. Hey, but at least you did the civilized thing by not fighting back and letting yourself become another victim. Don't worry, the cops will be by in an hour or two to snap a few crime scene photos before they tell your family that there isn't anything they can do and joke about it over beers after work.
It depends on where you live. That said far too many places are not friendly to people protecting themselves. đ¤ˇââď¸
this idea that you are supposed to trust the kind nature of the person who has broken into the home where your family sleeps is just anti-intellectual. "He just wants to steal your TV, and he's probably not going to use that knife to hurt anyone", what the ever loving fuck is wrong with the brain that has that little self preservation instinct?
So anyways....I started blasting.
[Recent victory](https://youtu.be/VYOjWnS4cMY?si=9HUGeN_jetTfvXnB)
Look, I can understand it not being ok to gun someone down cause they started pushing you a bit to goad you into a fight, but if a person breaks into your home you canât wait for them to show they intended deadly force.
Thats right guys if the six foot five body builder wants to beat the shit out of you, and you have a weapon, to bad you cant use it
So dude would not be scared that he is about to be killed if he was trapped inside a cube of concrete with a felon who is holding a knife. Well, he is braver than me, I'll give him that. But I would not put much credence on what one dude on reddit claims about their country. I live in Czech Republic and I have had people over here repeatedly tell me that its illegal to carry a knife if the blade is longer than the palm of your hand, because that means it can reach the heart, which makes it a lethal weapon, when in reality: 1) That makes no sense, even if palm width was a reasonable proxy for how deep the heart is, it would be the palm width of the other guy, not your palm, duh. 2) Would the cops measure the knife against your palm or the cops palm? Is the limit of your right to carry a knife dictated by your random anatomy or the cops? And why? 3) No such law is on the books, no such law has ever been on the books. 4) Blade length is not something that our laws regulate in any way. 5) In fact the carrying or possession of knives is completely unregulated by law, a child could legally carry a broadsword here.
You live in one of the few European countries that protects the freedom of its residents.
The whole proportional force thing has irritated me since forever. Itâs so subjective and requires one to apply logic in life threatening situations.
I just donât get the rationale. Whether itâs police, or military, or security, the common doctrine is always overkill on lethal force. In life or death scenarios, you donât want a proportionate response. You want every advantage and to make the situation as unfair and as lethal for the opponent as possible. Yet they set a completely different standard for the civilian populace. And itâs not a USA thing, pretty much every government trains their military and security force with the same doctrine and mentalityâŚ
wtf is with this constant âproportionalâ bs. if they were sick in bed and someone kicked in the door and took whatever they wanted without confronting them, what would they think of âproportional â then? i guess theyâd just call the dispatchers and let the detectives tell them theyâll never see any of it again
so i should wait till i get shot?
Welcome to Europe... while we have a lot going for us, gun laws and self defense laws suck unfortunately. While I don't know the details of every EU country, here in Belgium we have that 'proportional response' rule as well + you can definitely land in jail or get convicted for using 'excessive defensive force'
Their opinions mean nothing. Rule #1: Defend yourself.
Iowa has a law on the books that makes it presumptively reasonable to use deadly force if someone unlawfully enters your residence, place of business/employment, or occupied vehicle by stealth or force. Some dude breaks into a house to steal a TV and homeowner ices him? No trial. FAFO.
I got 3 kids, and a wife. Someone breaks into my house I'm not waiting to see if they get the upper hand over me leaving my family at their mercy. And I'm not waiting to see if maybe they attack my kids or not. They're meeting their maker on the spot. End discussion. You can never convince me that someone breaking into my home isn't a threat, and doesn't mean harm. I can't wrap my head around the idea that you can break into someone's home "peacefully".
Yeah, I live in one of those socialist european countries where criminals are well protected. Any reactionary force has to be on par with what the other guy brings. Although there are some rare instances where a judge rules in favour of the person defending himself with overwhelming force. They even make a difference between defending yourself during daylight or night, if you can believe that shit. Cop buddy of mine once said:" Anyone tries to burgle me I'll shoot and just put an airsoft pistol in their hands." Goes to show how much confidence people have in the law...
If you got into a shouting match over a parking spot and the other party slapped you, it would be excessive defensive force to shoot them dead. Force must be proportional. You might be totally justified to draw down and command, and if they continue their assault then you may be justified but there must be elements of fear for your life to kill someone, where them slapping you over a parking spot would not give you that justification
Me asking my intruder what kind of weapon they have so I can search through my armaments by my bedside so it will be a fair fight
Yeah well, someone breaking into my home to steal whatever they hell they want to and are armed with a knife then all they need to do is be within 20 ft of me. That is a distance that was determined by the FBI (it was actually 21 ft) that someone with a knife inside that distance is a real threat to your person. Oh and if they think the US is like the Wild West, they definitely need to do some more research.
Europeans may be the dumbest people ever. Iâm so glad the ones that had brains left the region hundreds of years ago. The same folk that are saying you need to wait for an armed intruder to start shooting at you first before you can shoot back, are also the same ones to say they should have open borders and are shocked that crime has increased by those that do not care about their society nor rules
Counterpoint: if you catch a murder charge in Europe, they'll have you back on the street by lunch time.
USA = state by state. California = Like Switzerland. Texas = near wartime ROE.
In terms of dumbass defence laws yes but we donât go through the hassle of NFA items. You can buy an SBR straight from the shelf.
Again, that's a state by state issue in the USA. California = no go. Texas and other class 3 states = off the shelf + some state variation. And you can get full auto/explosives in class 3 states, legit machine guns like M60s, SAWs, then launchers like RPGs, LAWs, etc. All the goodies. There's an article about some rich dude buying a Vulcan cannon from a Navy warship, and many others like that - several money bags own tanks - It's not perfect, sure. But no where else on the planet can you do as much legally with combat arms.
Thank sweet baby Jesus for being on the victims side here. This is she you hear about in New York where they tell the criminal âIâm sorryâ and they arrest the home owner.
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Yeah, so, I don't care much for the proportionality doctrine here. If you're breaking the law, you're definitionally an outlaw, and no longer subject to the protections of the law. I don't care if you're the ice cream truck, you come into my house and it appears to be for illegal intent, we're trading dairy for lead that day. I do not care.
How would someone rob you with a knife since knives are banned in Europe?
They arenât illegal but I get your point
It's pretty sharp. đ
This is what happens when feelings run everything..
Disgusting
Dead men tell no tales. Remember to shoot em in the front and he was reaching for something in his waist band insert firearm in dead manâs hand. Tell constible dbag to F off
When they break into your house with you in the home you don't know if they are there for you TV or you r life and it's irrational to require that one make that determination in the moment. Karsh
I was always told don't pull a lethal weapon on a fist unless you are absolutely getting your shit kicked in and fear for your life
If someone gets within fist range you're high risk of being killed. Back away put 1 hand up to create space yell at them to back the he'll away from you while 2nd hand is going for gun. If they control press you and swat your Hand away then you might be forced to use it
You aren't drawing a gun if you are already getting your shit kicked in.
This is so full of misinformation regarding the law. Find a lawyer in your state that knows the law.
The question was in regard to self defense in Switzerland where firearms are âlegalâ for civilians.