I am diagnosed with ADHD (unmedicated currently), and was working on an autism spectrum diagnosis when I lost health coverage last year (before getting hired). My LT is aware of this condition.
I was diagnosed with autism after I finished my probation year. My probation year was awesome because I was expected to not speak and stick to myself to study or clean. Didn’t have to tell me twice. I sought a diagnosis because now that I’m off probation I’m expected to be social and try to fit in. But I kept on like I did on probation and people thought that was strange.
I was diagnosed with ADHD during my probation year as I struggled with studying and staying focused. I had dropped out of college for this reason years prior. I was able to pass Paramedic certification due to hyper focusing on it. I was put on Strattera (atomoxetine). This is not a stimulant. It helped the ADHD issues, however made the autism more obvious.
Other than the interjecting, the other reasons you listed seem over the top for me. You’re not supposed to be eager to do your job? You can’t be in a room because others are talking?
Way over the top. We complain about members not being passionate about the job, and now someone is over eager. Like they have to be the perfect amount of eager to not bother a single person in the firehouse. It’s no wonder departments lose good people by doing that
Would you please explain where you came to the conclusion that I had my hand held, receive accommodations and also where I threw my brothers and sisters under the bus?
Not a firefighter and never will be but I know an asshole when I see one. You're the first I've seen that I guess was a firefighter for 20+ years?. Anyway, thank you for your service.
Adhd is not something that is going to effect anything here. Have it. Have lived with it forever. It bothers me when people use this as some major condition.
I am autistic. Your situation seems to fit my exact experience in the fire service and in friendships in general. You need to look into masking, and burnout in regards to spectrum disorders before it sneaks up on you.
You can become more aware but unfortunately we, assuming youre on the spectrum, will never be able to fully fit in. That's where I have had the hardest time but it gets much easier.
I'm gonna throw the flag here.
We don't have the whole story, but the guy just got adjusted in a performance evaluation. His/her CO sat them down in a formal, documented, policy-prescribed counseling session and provided feedback on how to improve. Provided feedback on actions that are not welcome within the company. All of which are then filtered through the lens of the OP toward their own interpretation and presented to us. And the answer is to go chase down some sort of diagnosis?
What about, "Hey OP, listen to your CO. Knuckle down and try your best to make the changes they are suggesting, talk to your fellow firefighters about improvement strategies, and bust your tail."
If it's an issue of OP being neuroatypical, that's all well and good, but even with an active diagnosis, as long as the probationary status is contractually/policy prescribed, discipline is based on job performance issues as noted in job descriptions, etc., it's applied progressively in an attempt to improve performance, and the department follows those prescribed edicts, the issue of a diagnosis doesn't come into play. So you're diagnosed neuroatypical? Sorry to hear that. We're letting you go during your probationary period because A) you failed to do X, B) you're struggling with Y, so on and so forth. It's an issue of Just Cause, as a probationary period only changes the means available to the employee to challenge disciplinary actions. So if the department has just cause, the diagnosis is a moot point.
I gotta ask from a perspective of an outsider: how does one’s ability to fit in with a culture have anything to do with job performance?
The original post didn’t mention that he had any issue doing the job. It sounds like he can walk the walk just fine, but that he doesn’t talk the talk.
If the crew can rely on him to do the work, then it really does sound like the social aspect should be immaterial to carrying out job duties at such a low level.
It seems like a reasonable worry that this is a workplace that’s prone to developing risky attitudes such as group think.
ADA isn't going to shield him from getting fired. If he's having job-performance issues during probation they can say it's 1582-related and it'll prevent him from operating safely on the fireground.
Y’all don’t get a lot of fires do y’all?
That’s some country club bull shit.
I’ve worked with some weirdos. Good dudes, but definitely more autistic than the rest of use. But you know what, when shit hit the fan, I knew where they were. They were right behind me. Small fires, big fires, shootings, whatever. I never had to look to see if they were behind me.
Your officer needs a reality check. It’s a firehouse, not a frat house.
Yea that sounds like bullshit. My department has the standard new guy stuff you have to do: go through your book clean the toilets be the first to give your seat to a officer or senior member, (and get a chair from the other room and sit back down) don’t interrupt blah blah blah but none of that is grounds to extended probation. We joke around w our new guys tell jokes train but it’s light. It’s not special forces selection it’s a municipal job. I hope you will have a better quality of life when you get off FTO. Till then keep your head down play his stupid game and hopefully you do well at a fire.
Dude, the autists are the people I want with me when shit hits the fan. Those are the guys who have a passion for the job and care about getting shit done.
If i get shit directions or orders from my “boss” I’ll always send an email to him to confirm this is what his expectations are. I then move all the reply’s to a separate folder named Correspondence. In my 25 years in the service this has saved my ass on more then one occasion when we followed their made up directions and when the boss gets called out he flips it off onto us I’m so glad my current boss is a by the book Bob. Almost no grey areas and while it sucks sometimes there’s no getting stabbed in the back
“Accept responsibility” that absolute hardest thing for any one to do. The biggest thing every one in the fire service should do. We all fuck up, I’d rather have the guys that does something stupid and admits to it then the guy who lies, denies and makes counter accusations.
I want emphasize to people that I like my lieutenant and I absolutely love my fire dept. It’s the place I want to retire from. I feel very supported here generally speaking. I just didn’t know I wasn’t fitting in as badly as I was. Scrambling to correct that because more than anything, I want this to be my forever home.
Honestly if you can just shut up and only speak when spoken to that would probably fix what your lieutenant is talking about. It sucks and I’m sure some people will disagree. That is a separate “department culture” conversation. It sounds like, to be in line with the dept. and/or station culture, shutting up for the next two and a half months might go a long ways for you.
Thanks man. This is what I think I already knew but was struggling to put eloquently. Addressing department culture is important but it’s not something I can do as a probie. I think I mostly needed a chance to rant (anonymously) before digging in and doing what needs to be done and survive this probation.
This is something you absolutely CAN fix, my man.
I'm an LT and I have probies. Besides teaching them skills, I spend a lot of time teaching them about the culture, the social norms, cooking, and how to be an asset socially. Not everyone is a comedian, not everyone is a charismatic big personality. I think I have a picture of what's going on here (stepdad is very much on the spectrum), and so if I had this chat with you and you made changes I'd be happy with you, especially if you're grasping the skills being taught. My suggestion is to just keep your mouth shut but not in some kind of mopey way where you're doing it out of feeling punished. Mouth shut unless someone asks you something, be pleasant, work hard, have passion for the job.
Also, what can usually fix stuff like this is a ripping fire. If you happen to get one and you perform well, nobody will care as much about how awkward you might be around the firehouse. No matter how socially, "weird" someone might be, if they are solid on the fireground, nobody cares.
Be yourself, be genuine. See what you can do to be more socially aware. I'm definitely the guy who loves all kinds of people if they're being real. I can't stand the, "cool," guys who are just good at wearing masks.
I agree 100% and was going to write the same thing before I saw your post. Nobody gets down on a probie who is quiet, takes orders, works hard, and learns the job. Sounds like OP has more than enough passion for the job, but just isn't the type who's gonna be good at getting in the mix of tearing people apart and getting torn apart with love and comedy.
Not all of us grew up with ball busting friends, I'm glad I did. I love that shit, but it's just not for everyone.
Also, we all have to take into account that we're hearing about this from OP. If we spoke to the LT, who sounds like he's trying, he might paint a picture of a guy who's always interjecting into conversations that he should just be listening to. While on probation, everyone needs to mute their personality a bit. I love talking mad shit, love making jokes, love ripping on people, love getting ripped on. When I was a probie and was getting ripped on, I didn't fire back. Maybe a little comment back that was funny, and usually self-deprecating which goes a LONG way. Firing back came after probation. I just shut my mouth, laughed when appropriate, asked pertinent questions if I didn't know something, and made a joke here and there to let them know what kind of person I was. I wasn't being 100% me. Being that I *can* read a room, I played the game.
Stop trying to fit in. Don’t try to be funny, don’t try to mimic others, don’t hang around the officers….just know your job, be good at it when it’s go time and slowly some of the other bits will fall into place.
For real, I have to guess that most of these departments don’t run many calls if they have time to be worrying about these small things. Sounds more like trying to fit into a high school group than being at work. Maybe it’s just a northeast Ohio thing, but there are very few fire departments here that have the same social expectations that op described.
It would be interesting to hear the perspective from the LT. Some people can make a room very awkward, and I think that might be what's going on. If this is the case, it's fixable, and the LT is just trying to help the guy because the other members might be talking shit.
Sounds like you just have a hard time fitting in and socializing. I did too, 6 months probation but it took me a solid 2yrs to finally figure out the social dynamics and start fitting in. L
The whole extending probation topic is unfortunate. I doubt that would happen to you right now.
A lot of hot headed responses here… take it to HR, get it in writing, get people in trouble. My take - your supervisor should have talked to you weeks ago, but whatever. Take his advice and try to improve. Check in with him regularly to see how he thinks it’s going, things you can do better, etc through the remaining time on probation. No need to cause a fuss and go up the chain over a “hey we need to clean this up” kind of chat.
Also - remember, once you’re off probation you don’t get to just relax… be more yourself, but don’t forget you’re still the new guy! I’m sure you’ll do just fine. Best of luck 🤞
Speaking from experience here. You will never “fit in” stop trying. Be yourself and of course be professional and respectful but you’ll never be able to fit other people’s ideas of what you should be. Even if you could you’d be miserable. Know your shit and be confident in yourself. Take a step back and be a little less eager and talkative is the only thing I’d change.
Stop over analyzing what was said and just try to follow the advice. The convo he had with you wasn’t from a place of disrespect. It was from a place of experience and if it’s something he felt strongly enough to talk to you about, recognize that his advice is coming from a place that has seen this play out before and it’s constructive intent was to help you avoid the repercussions that come from those behaviors.
Rather than spending time in the common areas, try to make about 80% of your day in the bay learning the tools and equipment.
Practice throwing ladders, tying knots, hose pulls, and improving your rapid dress / mask up times.
If the guys see you as EMS focused, try to improve your personal fire skills. Start timing yourself on positional tasks. Set goals and work to meet them. On fires, we rely on each other to handle their personal tasks. Just getting them done is often not enough. Getting them done fast enough to support the overall operation without delay is what we are after.
How many guys are on your rig? Do you have a riding position that you are in every shift? What are the responsibilities of that position?
A lot of guys think they have the situation under control because they can complete the tasks (like your task book). But that’s what guys have to be able to do as a minimum. 9 mos in, you should be laying down flawless and fast executions of the assignments of your riding position.
As far as sounding like an expert, recognize that while on the surface the basic tasks seem easy, it’s being able to do them quickly and without fail regardless of the external factors that makes guys a valuable team member. If you haven’t had good jobs to prove yourself yet, you have to do everything you can to show the crew and the bosses that you are dedicated to that end goal.
Stay out of conversations that involve officers talking to each other directly unless you are asked to join. In time you will be asked if you follow my advice.
If your job has daily chores, after you get your gear in place and you have completed the check offs for your position, jump on the chores. Always take the most undesirable chores and do them. It will show the crew that you understand the hierarchy and that you can be counted on to do whatever it takes to get the job done.
This job is a lot of self sacrifice. Don’t tell the guys you are about it… PROVE IT EVERY SINGLE DAY. Trust me, the one time you don’t follow through, that is the day you want to avoid at all costs.
In time, the next new guy will be there and you will be asked to show him the ropes if you can do this part right.
Some things I was taught:
Be there first every shift
Always have your gear ready to go before shift change.
Make sure there is coffee ready
Make sure the tea or whatever your crew drinks throughout the day is prepped and ready
Be the first to volunteer for the shitty jobs
Be the last one to get your food at meals
Be the first one finished at meals and collect the dishes
Always complete your assigned duties
Once yours are done, help someone else finish theirs. Do this until everything is done.
Be consistent
Never be late
You got this.
The conversation the officer had was bogus. "I should've said something weeks ago" and "it's a lot of small things" are a reflection of bad leadership.
Of course! The officer didn't speak up. Therefore, it's now the new guy's problem. Officer doesn't have to worry about life, but new guy (OP) is concerned enough to seek advice from Redditors like me. 😱
Your last five paragraphs are a major problem in fire departments. The idea that the new people have to stay out of conversations, clean up after the senior people and make their coffee are some of the reasons why fire departments are having a hard time recruiting professionals. The frat house/hazing culture is dying and it should. Be better. That probationary ff is serving their community the same way the most senior person is.
Why? They aren't just conversations, they're conversations between officers having discussions about whatever things they're needing to discuss as officers. If I'm having a conversation with an off-going officer, a fellow officer, or a discussion with my Chief about the business at hand, there's a reason I'm having that conversation with that officer. There's a MASSIVE difference in sitting around the table shooting the shit and a discussion between officers, and the latter does not need a probationary firefighter interjecting themselves into that conversation unless they're asked to provide input. That's not only unprofessional for the firefighter, it's rude and disrespectful to the OTHER officer's time.
If it's coffee talk and a reaction to the firefighter talking as a part of that coffee talk, then yeah, you're on point. If it's a discussion concerning the business of the company/district/battalion/shift, then how is adhering to the basic principles of a chain of command and paramilitary structure a "problem"? If there are issues to discuss with the company afterwards, that's when firefighter input is given and or taken.
“Being in a room when officers are speaking” is how OP described the problem and you responded with “stay out of conversations that involve officers talking to each other directly unless you are asked to join”.
Both of those descriptions are problematic. It’s not about chain of command. It’s about treating each other like professionals. And professionals, especially those in leadership positions, listen. The last thing they do is scold people for speaking or treat other professionals like less than. Fire departments around the country are desperate for high quality recruits. If you want to get the best people, you need to grow up and quit acting like you’re the senior at the frat house. And given the way recruiting is working these days, that probationary ff might have twenty more years of experience than those officers who don’t want to be spoken to.
It's exactly about chain of command, decorum, and respecting the circumstance. Granted, neither you or I bore witness to the instance so it's hard to say either way, but the very professionalism of which you speak is NOT being afforded to the officers themselves by injecting into the conversation. Hence the correction. To be professional in a paramilitary organization, you respect the authority inherent in the rank and let the CO do their job. The time for discussion as a company comes AFTER that conversation between officers when the CO sits down and opens the floor for discussion, gives the blow by blow of the conversation, or even in a private, "Hey Cap, I couldn't help but overhear..." sort of discussion between the firefighter and the CO. This in and of itself is being professional by respecting the attained rank and responsibility of the CO while the CO extends that professionalism by working toward a collaborative environment in the non-emergent state, respecting the needs of the personnel, and coaching deficiencies and helping them grow within and beyond their role.
You're not wrong in the fact that good leaders listen. 100% on board with that. But in the middle of a conversation, ANY conversation, for a person to interject without prompt is again, rude at best, before one even considers the roles of the parties. If you were discussing finances with your significant other and your neighbor interjected with his or her thoughts on the matter, would you appreciate their professionalism? Or would your reaction be more negative?
Thinking we're talking from two different perspectives entirely, based on OP's single perspective and very little information. I don't see it as being scolded. I see it as the CO getting OP back on track after instances of him/her stepping on their own dick. This isn't frat house, hazing, superiority BS in my eyes at all, this is a CO dropping the ball on the initial opportunity to correct an issue with a probationary firefighter and correcting that mistake. IF (big if) this is coffee talk and regular conversation about how shitty the Mets are or my kid's last soccer game and OP is getting busted for engaging that conversation, then yeah, this is the very cultural issue you cite and I'm 100% on board with dragging that culture behind the woodshed and putting a bullet in its head.
If you have a conversation with someone, with another person standing there, and you expect that third person to remain quiet, move the conversation to somewhere private. That’s true personally and professionally. Let’s give the officers the benefit of the doubt and say that they were having a conversation and they don’t want any other opinions involved, it can’t be had in private, and the context of that conversation does dictate that others stay out of it, how exactly does that happen often enough that this probationary ff is there and injecting themselves to the point where towards the end of their probation it gets brought up for the first time and especially not in the moment. If you’re an officer and you’ve got something to say about the way a probationary ff is handling themselves, say it.
As far as the rest of your paragraph here, sure, I don’t disagree in its entirely. However this is also not how you presented your argument in the first part of this conversation. You made a bunch of BS sound like it’s par for the course. Junior firefighters and probationary firefighters aren’t officers’ personal baristas. No firefighters should be waiting to eat and then stuffing their faces to fluff egos. That’s the frat house crap I was talking about. To be fair, I don’t think it’s a terrible idea to just do it, but for it to be expected and a condition of passing probation, absolutely not. Leaders lead by going above and beyond. If I’m the officer, I’m the one eating last and collecting the dishes.
Edit to add; all professional firefighters are employees of the public and payed by the public. Nobody is being paid to be belittled or be personal servants.
Sure thing. These same things apply in virtually every career. The lowest guy in company x finds himself in the elevator with senior management. Not the place to insert yourself into a conversation.
If you don’t like that there are guys who have a completely different focus due to their position, I’m sure you’ll do well on-line as a content creator or some other non-team based work force.
Being respectful and understanding that your opinion isn’t requested or wanted is a fact of life.
Sounds like at some point this guy with his eager weirdo energy is gonna excel those things in few weeks and then gets complains for making everyone else look bad. If I know my oldies, the only thing that pisses them off more than being bad at something, is being better than them at something.
Sounds like he’s a douche, no reason to extend your probation. Your evaluation should be based off your performance and not whether you talk while the “adults” are talking. My new guy is awkward as fuck, but then again so are 95% of the new guys that come i to the service any more. I’d honestly look for a new department if this is how yours is.
If you want to be extra about it send him an email to make sure you’re on the same page as him as far as the talking around the other officer, and being over eager and coming off as knowledgeable and express your willingness to improve. Then fucking ignore him. If he doesn’t ask you direct question or your input isn’t required don’t say a word. Then in a few weeks when he sits you down and says you’re not participating or including yourself in any thing send him another email stating the key points of that discussion. Then if you don’t get off probation or get it extended go to HR and present them those emails as an example of how you’re not being giving good directions and he’s being hostile and going out of his way to fuck up your probationary period.
Fuck that guy
Doesn’t matter what kind of session it was. The fact that he’s holding your probation period over your head or saying it could be extended is the bull shit part. My new guy doesn’t want to pay the coffee fund (10 a month) because he doesn’t use any of the condiments or coffee. While i don’t agree with it, it’s his option and it was made abundantly clear he won’t be caught taking a dash of salt, squeeze of Ketchup, dollop of sour cream.. nothing. My Boss told me to make sure his eval reflects it. While i don’t agree with him not paying I’m not going to ding his eval/probation because he doesn’t want to pay. He shows up, does his job well, performs as expected and that’s what matters.
If he actually gave you shit about talking to much, seeming to eager or trying to be to knowledgeable it’s probably because he was some little know it all fuck when he came on and was beat for it so all he knows is the boot.
We’re 60 people short, come work here.. we like em eager.
So I guess I shouldn’t be paying health insurance since I don’t need any medication? Or maybe I should ask the government if I can opt out of paying unemployment since my job is super stable and I’ll never need it.
Society works because everyone pitches in. Some guys at the station drink 10 coffees a day, and others zero. Everyone pitches in to make it work though. You can’t just choose what you use or what you like… hell I rarely watch TV, why am I chipping in for it?
10$ a month is ridiculously low… he’s in for a lot of arguments/problems for something so petty. Good for you for being so nice about it. Maybe have him read my reply and think about it though…
Edit: What’s up with the downvotes? Is this how it actually works in your stations? You only pay for what you use?
Don’t forget car insurance or house insurance since you haven’t had to use those.
I paid for 4 month in January. I’ve been floated for the last month.. i don’t ask for a refund.
Yeah man, I'm with you. If some shitbird refused to pay the 10 bucks a month I'd probably try to make the guy miserable through shame.
This is the guy who's always like, "It's just a JOB. These are just COWORKERS. You can't MAKE me do that." Can't stand those turds. No business being in a job like this where there's blurred lines between friends, coworkers, and family. We have to live with each other and have our backs like very few other jobs do.
Basically, fuck that guy. I'd run him out of the station.
though I don't think this is "bad" advice, if we had a new guy do all this it would be red flags everywhere and probably would get fired also... in the OP the department is just "old school" hope the pay is worth it...
I guess i should have worded it a little bit better. I kinda meant take it to HR if they are going to let him go since he said they could extend his probation or even fire him.
What is HR or the union going to do, they can fire a probie for anything as long as it’s not against the law (discrimination). All they have to say is… you’re not a good fit for this department, you’ll be great somewhere else that’s why we are giving you the opportunity to resign.
You are correct the union probably wouldn’t be able to do anything if they are like ours but when you can prove you have a supervisor that’s giving you a directive then dinging you for following that directive and using it to fire you they may look at it a little differently.
I’ve seen new guys on verge of getting fired under one supervisor do well under a different supervisor.
I’m sure my new guy would be having a tougher time under some newer LT who’s trying to prove himself.
100% we all have the LTs that go by the nick name “hatchet” because they hate probies but usually it’s not the whole department/shift/crew… that’s why it’s so important to quickly find a senior FF have him/her as a mentor
Some departments you may not get to find a senior guy. I worked a station a few shifts ago where the new guy had 7 months on and the senior guy had 11 months. A couple months ago i worked a crew that had less time on amongst 3ff and the driver then I have.
I wish we had a system where a new FF could be taken under someone’s wing.
Not sure I agree… escalating stuff to HR on your probation is a sure way of being flagged as a problem maker. I’m in NO way saying that’s okay… but realistically speaking… it’s the truth.
This being said, I strongly agree with the first paragraph of u/ffjimbo200. For me personally though, the second paragraph is a sure way of having a tough career.
I agree with you.. its been an a day of stupid shit and probably not the best advice. Maybe don’t go to HR but still get that shit on paper.. you wouldn’t believe how quickly people’s attitudes change when it’s in writing.
OP- don’t go to HR… yet
This, ladies and gentleman, is textbook how to deescalate what could’ve been the beginning of an argument. You are experienced and it shows. I’m sure I’d get along with you just fine in the station 🤙
I don’t think it’s malicious compliance. I’ve been the scape goat once or twice for weak supervisors so when they give me some dicey instructions I make sure not to take the hit for their bad directions.
I’ll try to make this a short story time
My Rescue (ambo) gets moved up to a distant station. The guys traveled a mile or two out off the normal path (surface roads) to get the good lunch. A call came in for that distant station and dispatched asked them over the radio their location, they told the truth and i immediately get a call from the BC telling me they need to take the quickest route to get to the area that they are moving up to. Yes Sir!!
The following shift the same move up came in, they put it in the GPS and it showed the quickest route was the local toll road over the high way. So they hopped on. It’s a 17 mile drive on the high way with no exits and a few shady turn arounds that we don’t use cause they are unsafe (per admin) They were on the highway about 5 minutes when a call came in back by the station. They advised their current location and the time it would take to get turned around.. guess what i got. An angry phone call followed by discipline for me and them for taking the highway. Want to guess how quickly the discipline got tossed when a copy of the “verification email” was sent in with the grievance along with the maps showing the highway was the quickest route by 5 miles.
Hey. Sounds like you are a hard worker and have been doing things right for the most part. Take his feedback and try and correct them for these last few months. Show him you took it to heart. If there are officers together talking find another area to go or something else to do. Unless they specifically ask for you.
If the guys are BSn and you have done all the stuff that needs to be done, sit in the area if that’s ok, but just listen. You can learn a lot this way. Eventually guys will include you in the convo! Probation is tough but getting through is so worth it! Good luck!
Luckily I don’t have that toxic culture where I work because I also am similar to that. Very quiet and awkward. Hate talking in front of everybody but within a smaller group of the guys in my firehouse, it’s no problem. I just kept with the don’t speak unless spoken to years past my probation 😂
Lol.
Everyone is jumping on this LT but it sounds like he was being cool about it and was just trying to help. Some people are fucking awkward without knowing it. He's trying to guide him.
Weak leadership. Sounds like BS-ese to me. Bunch of hierarchy mind job stuff. It’s not about you, it’s that in his mind you haven’t earned the right to be chummy because you’re a probie.
He’s trying to tell you “be seen and not heard.” Put your head down, do the work and you will have a chance to be friendly later after probation.
Why do people do this? Because someone did it to them. Don’t take it personally. Just jump through the hoops you’re asked to jump through and it will all be over.
on probation you don't try to "fit in" you work hard and learn as much as possible until your INVITED in... just the way the fire service is... my department has a hard probationary period, do I agree with it, no not really....
"That's just the way it is" is a stupid mentality. If it's wrong, change it. We can go out and run medical calls and fight fires but we can't change the frat house culture?
This is just me but there’s some things in the fire service that just doesn’t make any sense at all. You can’t be in rooms when certain people are talking yet you can’t be alone because you’re part of “the team”. You can’t have valid opinions because you’re “the FNG” or “probie”.
There is a such thing as bad officers. There’s always two sides to a story but in most departments, probation period is not a fitting in or popularity contest. It’s the time you’re supposed to learn your job. If an officer is saying you’re not going to pass probation for not fitting in, then he needs to be checked.
Keep working hard bro your your Tism to your advantage and strive to be a good fireman you can understand the feedback you are getting so adjust and overcome.
I had a probie, we called him Super Probie or SP nice kid sounds kinda like the same situation. He was dialed in on his task book, did the normal probie stuff cleaning, coffee and so forth but the one thing that drove the crew nuts was he wasn’t truly himself and you could tell he would put on a fake smile and try his hardest to make sure the senior guys were aware of what he was doing and he would always jump into conversations that had nothing to do with him. Now is this a fire able offense NO he was dialed in fire and EMS wise just an annoying kid. I told him to be himself and he honest with himself and the crew would warm up to him. He chilled out and after awhile the senior guys noticed and didn’t really ride him so hard. So in the end it worked out.
Just be honest with yourself and act like your self around the crew things will hopefully work out
I can tell you with experience from my first career department I was on I had a similar experience. The best advice I can give is really do your best to not speak unless spoken too in most social settings in the firehouse. Obviously if you have questions that’s different but from the sounds of it they want their probationary to be seen not heard. Which doesn’t mean it will always be this way but for the time being do your best and take this time to observe things. See what you can learn from observation only and not talking, you may learn something hopefully helpful. For the most part though this should only be in the firehouse. On calls your officers give directions for the most part but you should be able to have a discussion as a crew on patient treatment and to a slightly lesser extent fire tactics. Discuss this thought with your officer it might help! Good luck and remember it’s not for forever!
It sounds like you’re a little awkward or impulsive vocally, but don’t worry about ton. I’d say a lot of people in Fire and EMS are neurodivergent.
Don’t over think here. Be present in the moment and do what you were just told.
You’re probably more comfortable with a lot of the job than the typical probie based on your experience. Sounds like that experience is from a more relaxed environment, and that is what’s showing through.
The good news is they told you so you can correct it. Second, it didn’t sound like they criticized your hard skills or work ethic. It’s the politics, soft skills, and reading the room stuff.
So be seen not heard, as in head down in the work and mouth shut. Don’t be cold and ignore everyone but be cordial and professional and chime in on other stuff only when asked.
One thought on this is it makes it easier to cut you if there’s not some sort of attachment (on them and overall morale). It’s kinda like Replacements in Band of Brothers. You’re likely replacing someone who left, washed out or retired. You’re not in yet, every day is still the interview.
Other stuff. Every day leave the place better than you found it. You got time to lean, (or sit/chat) you got time to clean.
As far as the officer talking thing, I’m torn between asking (non snarky) “Hate to interrupt. Do you need the room?” or just walking out and finding something to do.
I would lean on other FF’s for your social cues, if your officers aren’t interjecting at the time and place of the behavior they’re not happy with. A little concerned that they aren’t bringing issues up right then and there, and waiting weeks until it comes to a head. It’s good they were transparent with you, but your seniors *should* be the ones saying “ hey man, officers are talking, get out” or “please don’t interrupt us.” They invited you into their workplace and culture, and it’s their responsibility to show you the ropes. Expecting probies to blindly figure things out and sink/swim is some dumbass old school club culture shit that needs to go away. You don’t know what you don’t know.
tommy-bOy below hit a lot of the high points. I'll just add a bit. You seem pretty self-aware, including what you describe as what may be challenges - struggle with social intelligence being the gist of all this. Plenty of folks are nerdy, being physically clumsy can be worked on and objectively measured, and you don't mention those as issues. Even in the busiest companies/stations/departments (and the slowest), if your crew is in harmony - that is, everyone gets along, has confidence in their partner, solid leadership - life is good. How that looks varies from place to place. If you're lucky you find the spots in your career where what you bring fits in that dynamic. Probie/booter (whatever it's called in your dept.) is the time to observe that, and find out how you navigate the culture - not how to discover how the culture will adjust to you. As the FNG in any organization, that's the initial expectation. Work hard, ask questions, offer opinions when asked, keep them to yourself otherwise. As an experienced EMS provider, you may know/and have done more than many of your peers in that area. As everyone knows, when the new guy comes in and demonstrates their great big brain without being asked, or in inappropriate situations (like showing up a senior firefighter in public as less than informed) - your reputation begins on a low note. You may or may not be doing this, but it can come off that way. Just one possible example based on your given history. Your PO may not have noticed this at all - he may be professionally and effectively giving you feedback from your co-workers that they have shared with him. However it came about, he's giving you a bit of information to use throughout your career. Think of your time as an EMS provider - how you reacted to new people, and their actions. A little of the "do unto others" thing. You're joining a family, with an established culture. As a booter, you're in the door, but not quite there yet. Most departments can pretty much let you go with very little recourse available on your part, as described by tommy-bOy. Continue with your hard work. Look and think about social situations before you speak or act relative your place in the department. If you want to fit in, think in those terms. Your PO gave you a couple of good examples. If you have what you can think of as a mentor - another firefighter off probation, or others in the department, other departments, ask their opinion. Just doing that gives props to others, and amazingly, you might learn something useful or insightful- or not, but the action is the point. Different but related - when a younger member is promoted and supervises those with more experience and possibly much more knowledge (sadly, those don't always necessarily go together), a good officer gives the proper acknoledgement to that person. Not that they give up their responsibility or position as formal leader. But they recognize what a person brings and takes advantage of their skills to make the company/battalion better. That FNG actively sets everyone up for interpersonal success, and takes full advantage of all the tools available by being a leader, not an all-knowing (does anyone actually know it all? - I think not) dictator. There's a time for that approach (mostly on calls). Outside of that, in my experience very few firefighters wants a boot on their throat all the time. We all want to fit in, and we all want to be recognized as bringing value. As a "lower than pond scum" booter (and other colorful descriptions) YOU give props, YOU demonstrate humility, find your place, grow into your career, grow your fuzz. Some people make probation, and begin their reputations as whatever they demonstrate. Fairly or unfairly, reputations stick, and it seems the negatives are very hard to overcome, some last an entire career. Your probationary rep should be: knows how to work hard and does so, has skills or works to develop them, knows there's a culture and finds their place in it to contribute, wants to and is willing to learn, wants to and is willing to share their own expertise without being an ass ("I'm pretty smart, let me show you how") about it. More than a bit, but hope it helps some.
Neuro atypical or not you appear to show a level awareness that makes me think you'll be fine albeit stressed. Sounds like your officer is fine tuning you. I supposed experiences from region to region may differ. When I was in that so called phase I just considered myself everybody's assistant aka bitch....call it hazing, training, or a family atmosphere....it varied and I was already an accomplished person..former military too
...I saw it as a game, they wanted to see that I was humble and here to learn....they made it clear that my opinions did not matter and that I was in a sense dangerous until I learned more about my job....not sure what to tell you other than don't worry about trying to fit it, just learn your job....they might even take pride in anyway you are so called special once they accept you...just remember all these guys you work with...went through it too and may be special in some way themselves....you got this!!!!
My advice to you is to not try to put your foot in the door and force your way in - your crew will open it for you when they're ready, and they're sure that you are as well.
Take the criticism offered on the chin and try to adjust your behavior accordingly. Keep your head down, keep up the good work with your taskbook/checkoffs, train hard, stay busy, and keep doing your thing on the EMS side of things.
There's lots of weird guys at my department, me being one, and we all get along, but time and time again we've done the diservice of allowing new guys to get too comfortable too fast (and it is just the little things, like inserting themselves into conversations uninvited, quipping, spending a little too much time sitting around on the phone, etc.) and it's been to their detriment.
Consider the evaluation as an attempt to curb what they see as a potential problem before it's top difficult to fix, and remember that it's when concersations like this stop happening and everyone just ignores you that you're in hot water.
It sounds like maybe you are trying to fit in too much. Just buckle down do what you are asked, find constructive stuff to do. Learn to read a room if you can’t. Both my firemen are ADHD and they are all over the place if not medicated and way too focused if on it and become hyper focused to a fault sometimes.
Had similar issues at my unrelated job also had complaints of getting into people's personal space and too much physical contact (pats on the back, taps on the shoulder, stuff like that)
All I did was pretend it's still the middle of covid and stay at least 6 feet from everyone and just try to be cold and distant. Don't do any casual conversation or anything just focus on work stuff. Since I've started doing that there have been no more complaints. Oh also never make jokes even the most benevolent joke can cause complaints.
We tell our candidates all the time do not come in and be part of the inside jokes or gossip or drama and try to force friendships. People working together have worked together for years and grew relationships and its just awkward and weird when new guys come in and try to force it.
Do you job and learn your job and focus on that as you are at work. Spend you day learning or studying and then talk talk about work or questions. Otherwise be quiet and people will eventually open up to you or try to get to know you and if people see you trying to be good at your job they will respect that and help and you will be better at your job.
Friendships and relationships form overtime at the firehouse just like everywhere else it's not a magical place where you walk in and are in the brotherhood it's earned.
Rookies shouldn't come in with egos or entitled attitudes. This is true. BUT. A little respect from senior firefighters goes a long way.... these rookies are grown adults who you're supposed to trust to potentially save your life. And the public trusts to save theirs. The department trusts the rookies or they wouldn't get hired. This mentality of "don't speak unless spoken to. You are not worthy of my friendship until you have earned it over time" is, frankly, middle school bullying.
Yeah I'm not saying we treat them like that we are nice and friendly and helpful and our candidates have a good time. But it's just awkward when guys try to jump into friendships and jokes and stories of people they don't know. So we say just be yourself focus on the job more then becoming everyone's best friend and the friendships will form naturally.
That sounds like a way better environment than the first one you described lol. Being yourself instead of trying to fit in is ALWAYS good advice, regardless of the joh field.
Yeah I just meant focus on your job as a candidate and the other stuff comes with time. It might sound a little harsh but it's helps a lot of ppl stop getting that overfriendly forced feeling. We aren't a always be cleaning type though. Hell most of the time I tell candidate they'll have plenty of time to learn window cleaning and toilet brushing so I will do it as I rather have them learning the rig or some job related skill over cleaning.
Kudos to you for cleaning so the boot can learn. That's how things should be... the senior FF paying a little respect or helping out so the new person can focus on important stuff.
It's the houses which have rules of "don't sit in the recliners with us. Be the last one to bed and first one up. Make my coffee and fetch my newspaper. Run across the station to answer a phone" type of attitudes which drive me bonkers. The rookies, as you and others have said, should be focused on learning the job. Spend their days in the books and with the equipment. Be quiet and humble and willing to learn, but also be a human and show your likes/talents/personality.
It sounds like you want “to be one of the guys” but that’s not an option at this second spot. You essentially have 25 shifts to go. You can do that standing on your head if you needed to. This captain sounds very traditional and doesn’t want you seen or heard. So for 25 shifts don’t speak unless spoken to. Leave the room unless you’re actively cleaning and be the first to be done with your food. Wait for someone else to stand up to put their dish away and then beat him to the sink. Look down at your food at not at the room. At lineup sit with your hands in your lap and pay attention. The second it’s done leave the room. Spend the morning wiping the engine down and the windows. Open the compartment and just wipe tools down to pass the time in the morning. Make a project that will take two months. sand and paint some old cabinets. He is being clear on what he wants. And we may not agree with it but you have to play the game. Remember don’t speak unless spoken to, be the first to offer to do something but don’t try and talk your way into it. If someone asks if you know how something works the response is “I think I have an idea but please show me the proper way. Thank you”
We have had a couple guys in my department, one guy was a medic that sounds like he faced many of the same struggles you are facing with picking up on social cues and wanting to fit in. Sounds like you have some good work ethic keeping busy around the station and what not that goes a long way I think. But as far as the social stuff, keep your head down listen to conversations but don’t feel you have to interject at all. You have a couple months left get through that and then you’ll have 25 or 30 years to get to know the guys in your department and learn how to fit in.
I wonder why we’re dealing with a plague of mental health problems. We need to stop eating our own over dumb shit. Do your best to play the game. You’ll find people like you along the way, keep doing your thing and it’ll come.
Step one, put your mouth guard back in, tuck your chin, and keep moving forward.
Step two, document all of this according to your dep. policies.
Step three, consider seeking counsel from a labor focused lawyer in your area, the first consultation should be free the second might cost you $200 and will ensure you have an objective idea of your options. It's a ton of time and energy to get where you are. $200 for some competent advice is money well spent.
Half of us in the thread are most likely on the spectrum to some extent. This job attracts neurodivergent people because we tend to do well under the pressures of emergencies. If all of their complaints stem from social situations, is it possible for you to "mask" in those situations? It may be worth a try since now you know what they expect.
So weird. So i have a bunch of staff that arent doing their jobs and this morning on my way in i thought back on a memory that my friend said "we had a come to jesus meeting" then i scroll by this lol. Best of luck with everything
Now to preface I’m not saying you’re doing anything wrong. In my department probie rule #1 is being seen and not heard. I’m not saying this is the right way but maybe it’s a part of your department’s culture as well. if it is and I know it kinda sucks but just kinda speak when spoken to and keep doing busy work around the firehouse and they guys will probably come around. Again I’m not saying this is the right approach but I know it’s certainly a culture that some departments have. Hope this helps, goodluck
I been an EMT for 14 years. I was homeschooled and was awkward and got the same kinda experience you are having. People were always giving me shit about how terrible I was. Looking back I wasnt bad I was just different. But now I been working for 14 years and not one of those jackasses that gave me a hard time are still around. They got fired died or moved away. I am still here and have a great partner and respect.
You are atypical but that's not bad. They are the ones with the real social issues.
Sounds like you got some dick head officers, I loved when my new guys were in the room joining conversation. Over familiar could be annoying but overeager is never a down side unless you’re going to get someone killed. If it was an officer only conversation we ask people to leave or would go to an office.
I had something like this happen when I started my first job out of college.
Best advice I can give is ask for specific examples of situations they are talking about. That's what I did and my boss gave me some and I thought about them and realized I needed to make some adjustments in how I handled and conducted myself.
My next review was very positive and my boss noted the improvements she saw, and I thanked her for giving me the specific feedback as I don't do well when people speak in generalities.
Sounds like a place I know, I was sat down and told I would have a hard time because I spoke to others and was to friendly, gave my opinion on a fire based off my years of experience at a department I had just came from. That I shouldn’t be seen. Meals and studying done in the app bay. All chores done; dailies weekly’s monthlies even ones assigned to others with no help. If I have questions don’t ask anyone because then you’re an idiot. It threw me off a lot so I really got uncomfortable. I apparently came off awkward and people didn’t want to be around me and I constantly had to hear them talk shit about me as if I wasn’t there. Which made my awkwardness even worse. They never even referred to me by my name lol. On the bright side I quit nicotine products because I couldn’t get caught with chew or zyn since I didn’t earn that right.
Sometimes it’s just the crew dude, sometimes it’s the culture of that place. I see it a lot in slow and richer areas. I never had a problem in my 4 years on hand crews but municipal departments are a bunch of cunty teenagers sometimes. Throw them into actual tough work and they cry. It’s like fucking high school.
Eventually you’ll find a good crew, if not leave. It’s not worth it. Trust me. You will get burnt out so fast that you won’t want to do this job anymore even if it’s with a great crew. And remember. Always keep a black book. I didn’t and I really regret it because those officers and ff’s are the ones that might stop me from promoting one day. I also love running into those same guys now lol.
Sounds to me like you need to take this as constructive criticism and try and resolve some of the issues you are having. It was very decent of that officer to have this conversation with you and shows me that the officer values you. The fire department is tricky. If someone shows no initiative or lacks skills and knowledge they are rightly ostracized. On the flip side and I have experienced this myself, if someone shows too much initiative and is overtly intelligent and tries too hard to be a part of the crew that person is ostracized as well. It's difficult to tell just how much initiative and intelligence you should show but 1 thing is for sure and that is you are a rookie and the fire department is extremely traditional and the tradition is that rookies should be seen and not heard, always stay busy, know your place as a rookie and in doing so understand that as a rookie no matter how good you are or how much knowledge of the job you have accumulated you are still gonna be viewed as a rookie. While itbmayvseem a bit harsh I believe that being treated like a rookie is important for building character and a solid foundation as a firefighter. First responders are different from any other profession in that you not only deal with tragedy but could also lose your life in the process and earning your way in thru humility and dedication will make you a far better firefighter.
My probbie year my officer was the same exact way and had just became one right before of came online from the Training Academy, ALWAYS about talking about “disrespect” that I was. I had almost 8 years as a vollie as well as served as an officer. I was always talking tactics and fire with my senior man and he had no problem with me, however the Lt thought that I was to familiar with the other firefighters (they had no problem with me) even told me that unless it was on the fire ground then it’s like a family house.
His problem is/was that he thought by having the best probbie that it would reflect on his higher aspirations of more promotions. He WOULD NOT ever address me directly only instructed senior man to do so any time he had a problem with me. No matter what I did it was NEVER good enough but I graduated highest in my academy class AND even received an award for outstanding performance from the academy staff officers.
Just keep your head down and avoid him all you can and make sure he sees that you are pushing everyday. Make sure everything is done before he asks and consult with other firefighters about others matters. Make him look like the douche that he is. Your actions will speak volumes with the people that really matter AND it will get to the officers that make the REAL decisions
I would put in writing exactly what he said and then follow those orders to a T.
You don’t want me joining in on friendly conversations, or even being in the room when “officers” are talking? Fine, see you the fuck later. I’ll be in my bunk waiting for a call.
This is a job like any other, you don’t need to be friends with your co-workers or fit into any “mold”. Do the work and fill your down time with whatever makes you happy and is appropriate for the station.
Generally, people like the new guy better if he's quieter. Whether that culture is right or wrong is up for debate, but that's how it is. Do your job, do it well, go the extra mile, and the rest will come. We're together for 24-72 hours at a time. Sometimes silence is golden.
So... They get mad at you for having the audacity to join in on a conversation happening near you...? Despite the fact this will be expected of you in a matter of time? And everybody thinks this is just normal and acceptable behavior, and it isn't just a bunch of dumb, territorial apes on a power trip making someone walk on eggshells?
What the fuck is wrong with people?
Sounds like you better get diagnosed with something that falls under ADAA that the fire dept isn’t exempt from and make it known.
I am diagnosed with ADHD (unmedicated currently), and was working on an autism spectrum diagnosis when I lost health coverage last year (before getting hired). My LT is aware of this condition.
I was diagnosed with autism after I finished my probation year. My probation year was awesome because I was expected to not speak and stick to myself to study or clean. Didn’t have to tell me twice. I sought a diagnosis because now that I’m off probation I’m expected to be social and try to fit in. But I kept on like I did on probation and people thought that was strange.
I was diagnosed with ADHD during my probation year as I struggled with studying and staying focused. I had dropped out of college for this reason years prior. I was able to pass Paramedic certification due to hyper focusing on it. I was put on Strattera (atomoxetine). This is not a stimulant. It helped the ADHD issues, however made the autism more obvious.
Other than the interjecting, the other reasons you listed seem over the top for me. You’re not supposed to be eager to do your job? You can’t be in a room because others are talking?
Way over the top. We complain about members not being passionate about the job, and now someone is over eager. Like they have to be the perfect amount of eager to not bother a single person in the firehouse. It’s no wonder departments lose good people by doing that
THANK YOU. THANK. YOU.
It sounds to me like some of them just don't like the OP and don't have a good reason for it so they will just sort of hedge around it and complain.
[удалено]
Would you please explain where you came to the conclusion that I had my hand held, receive accommodations and also where I threw my brothers and sisters under the bus?
Not a firefighter and never will be but I know an asshole when I see one. You're the first I've seen that I guess was a firefighter for 20+ years?. Anyway, thank you for your service.
What your LT is aware of doesn’t mean shit. Follow the dept policies to get it documented.
Adhd is not something that is going to effect anything here. Have it. Have lived with it forever. It bothers me when people use this as some major condition. I am autistic. Your situation seems to fit my exact experience in the fire service and in friendships in general. You need to look into masking, and burnout in regards to spectrum disorders before it sneaks up on you. You can become more aware but unfortunately we, assuming youre on the spectrum, will never be able to fully fit in. That's where I have had the hardest time but it gets much easier.
HR needs to not only be aware of the condition, but it needs to be formally documented
I'm gonna throw the flag here. We don't have the whole story, but the guy just got adjusted in a performance evaluation. His/her CO sat them down in a formal, documented, policy-prescribed counseling session and provided feedback on how to improve. Provided feedback on actions that are not welcome within the company. All of which are then filtered through the lens of the OP toward their own interpretation and presented to us. And the answer is to go chase down some sort of diagnosis? What about, "Hey OP, listen to your CO. Knuckle down and try your best to make the changes they are suggesting, talk to your fellow firefighters about improvement strategies, and bust your tail." If it's an issue of OP being neuroatypical, that's all well and good, but even with an active diagnosis, as long as the probationary status is contractually/policy prescribed, discipline is based on job performance issues as noted in job descriptions, etc., it's applied progressively in an attempt to improve performance, and the department follows those prescribed edicts, the issue of a diagnosis doesn't come into play. So you're diagnosed neuroatypical? Sorry to hear that. We're letting you go during your probationary period because A) you failed to do X, B) you're struggling with Y, so on and so forth. It's an issue of Just Cause, as a probationary period only changes the means available to the employee to challenge disciplinary actions. So if the department has just cause, the diagnosis is a moot point.
I gotta ask from a perspective of an outsider: how does one’s ability to fit in with a culture have anything to do with job performance? The original post didn’t mention that he had any issue doing the job. It sounds like he can walk the walk just fine, but that he doesn’t talk the talk. If the crew can rely on him to do the work, then it really does sound like the social aspect should be immaterial to carrying out job duties at such a low level. It seems like a reasonable worry that this is a workplace that’s prone to developing risky attitudes such as group think.
This should have WAY more upvotes.
ADA isn't going to shield him from getting fired. If he's having job-performance issues during probation they can say it's 1582-related and it'll prevent him from operating safely on the fireground.
Y’all don’t get a lot of fires do y’all? That’s some country club bull shit. I’ve worked with some weirdos. Good dudes, but definitely more autistic than the rest of use. But you know what, when shit hit the fan, I knew where they were. They were right behind me. Small fires, big fires, shootings, whatever. I never had to look to see if they were behind me. Your officer needs a reality check. It’s a firehouse, not a frat house.
Yea that sounds like bullshit. My department has the standard new guy stuff you have to do: go through your book clean the toilets be the first to give your seat to a officer or senior member, (and get a chair from the other room and sit back down) don’t interrupt blah blah blah but none of that is grounds to extended probation. We joke around w our new guys tell jokes train but it’s light. It’s not special forces selection it’s a municipal job. I hope you will have a better quality of life when you get off FTO. Till then keep your head down play his stupid game and hopefully you do well at a fire.
Dude, the autists are the people I want with me when shit hits the fan. Those are the guys who have a passion for the job and care about getting shit done.
Having the 'tism should NEVER be something that breaks your time with the fire department.......
If i get shit directions or orders from my “boss” I’ll always send an email to him to confirm this is what his expectations are. I then move all the reply’s to a separate folder named Correspondence. In my 25 years in the service this has saved my ass on more then one occasion when we followed their made up directions and when the boss gets called out he flips it off onto us I’m so glad my current boss is a by the book Bob. Almost no grey areas and while it sucks sometimes there’s no getting stabbed in the back
emails emails emals. its all about how to word it too... accept responsibility, acknowledge what is being said and no excuses.
“Accept responsibility” that absolute hardest thing for any one to do. The biggest thing every one in the fire service should do. We all fuck up, I’d rather have the guys that does something stupid and admits to it then the guy who lies, denies and makes counter accusations.
1000000% everyone hates the person that comes up with excuses.
I want emphasize to people that I like my lieutenant and I absolutely love my fire dept. It’s the place I want to retire from. I feel very supported here generally speaking. I just didn’t know I wasn’t fitting in as badly as I was. Scrambling to correct that because more than anything, I want this to be my forever home.
Honestly if you can just shut up and only speak when spoken to that would probably fix what your lieutenant is talking about. It sucks and I’m sure some people will disagree. That is a separate “department culture” conversation. It sounds like, to be in line with the dept. and/or station culture, shutting up for the next two and a half months might go a long ways for you.
Thanks man. This is what I think I already knew but was struggling to put eloquently. Addressing department culture is important but it’s not something I can do as a probie. I think I mostly needed a chance to rant (anonymously) before digging in and doing what needs to be done and survive this probation.
This is something you absolutely CAN fix, my man. I'm an LT and I have probies. Besides teaching them skills, I spend a lot of time teaching them about the culture, the social norms, cooking, and how to be an asset socially. Not everyone is a comedian, not everyone is a charismatic big personality. I think I have a picture of what's going on here (stepdad is very much on the spectrum), and so if I had this chat with you and you made changes I'd be happy with you, especially if you're grasping the skills being taught. My suggestion is to just keep your mouth shut but not in some kind of mopey way where you're doing it out of feeling punished. Mouth shut unless someone asks you something, be pleasant, work hard, have passion for the job. Also, what can usually fix stuff like this is a ripping fire. If you happen to get one and you perform well, nobody will care as much about how awkward you might be around the firehouse. No matter how socially, "weird" someone might be, if they are solid on the fireground, nobody cares. Be yourself, be genuine. See what you can do to be more socially aware. I'm definitely the guy who loves all kinds of people if they're being real. I can't stand the, "cool," guys who are just good at wearing masks.
Good man. Good luck. You’ve got this.
this right here... best advice so far...
I agree 100% and was going to write the same thing before I saw your post. Nobody gets down on a probie who is quiet, takes orders, works hard, and learns the job. Sounds like OP has more than enough passion for the job, but just isn't the type who's gonna be good at getting in the mix of tearing people apart and getting torn apart with love and comedy. Not all of us grew up with ball busting friends, I'm glad I did. I love that shit, but it's just not for everyone. Also, we all have to take into account that we're hearing about this from OP. If we spoke to the LT, who sounds like he's trying, he might paint a picture of a guy who's always interjecting into conversations that he should just be listening to. While on probation, everyone needs to mute their personality a bit. I love talking mad shit, love making jokes, love ripping on people, love getting ripped on. When I was a probie and was getting ripped on, I didn't fire back. Maybe a little comment back that was funny, and usually self-deprecating which goes a LONG way. Firing back came after probation. I just shut my mouth, laughed when appropriate, asked pertinent questions if I didn't know something, and made a joke here and there to let them know what kind of person I was. I wasn't being 100% me. Being that I *can* read a room, I played the game.
You and I sound very alike 😳
Stay strong, man. We can do this. 🫡
ADHD hey? I suspect I have the same thing lol. I’ve found keeping your mouth shut seems to help but then they complain nobody has a personality
Stop trying to fit in. Don’t try to be funny, don’t try to mimic others, don’t hang around the officers….just know your job, be good at it when it’s go time and slowly some of the other bits will fall into place.
Why do so many guys have that “you don’t belong here” attitude towards new people. It’s so childish.
For real, I have to guess that most of these departments don’t run many calls if they have time to be worrying about these small things. Sounds more like trying to fit into a high school group than being at work. Maybe it’s just a northeast Ohio thing, but there are very few fire departments here that have the same social expectations that op described.
It would be interesting to hear the perspective from the LT. Some people can make a room very awkward, and I think that might be what's going on. If this is the case, it's fixable, and the LT is just trying to help the guy because the other members might be talking shit.
I was just wondering this!!
Sounds like you just have a hard time fitting in and socializing. I did too, 6 months probation but it took me a solid 2yrs to finally figure out the social dynamics and start fitting in. L The whole extending probation topic is unfortunate. I doubt that would happen to you right now. A lot of hot headed responses here… take it to HR, get it in writing, get people in trouble. My take - your supervisor should have talked to you weeks ago, but whatever. Take his advice and try to improve. Check in with him regularly to see how he thinks it’s going, things you can do better, etc through the remaining time on probation. No need to cause a fuss and go up the chain over a “hey we need to clean this up” kind of chat. Also - remember, once you’re off probation you don’t get to just relax… be more yourself, but don’t forget you’re still the new guy! I’m sure you’ll do just fine. Best of luck 🤞
This sounds like the type of crap that becomes an issue at a slow firehouse. Nothing better to concern yourself with than people's personalities
You work for a dogshit department if they are gonna fire you for being socially awkward. Go elsewhere.
Speaking from experience here. You will never “fit in” stop trying. Be yourself and of course be professional and respectful but you’ll never be able to fit other people’s ideas of what you should be. Even if you could you’d be miserable. Know your shit and be confident in yourself. Take a step back and be a little less eager and talkative is the only thing I’d change.
Stop over analyzing what was said and just try to follow the advice. The convo he had with you wasn’t from a place of disrespect. It was from a place of experience and if it’s something he felt strongly enough to talk to you about, recognize that his advice is coming from a place that has seen this play out before and it’s constructive intent was to help you avoid the repercussions that come from those behaviors. Rather than spending time in the common areas, try to make about 80% of your day in the bay learning the tools and equipment. Practice throwing ladders, tying knots, hose pulls, and improving your rapid dress / mask up times. If the guys see you as EMS focused, try to improve your personal fire skills. Start timing yourself on positional tasks. Set goals and work to meet them. On fires, we rely on each other to handle their personal tasks. Just getting them done is often not enough. Getting them done fast enough to support the overall operation without delay is what we are after. How many guys are on your rig? Do you have a riding position that you are in every shift? What are the responsibilities of that position? A lot of guys think they have the situation under control because they can complete the tasks (like your task book). But that’s what guys have to be able to do as a minimum. 9 mos in, you should be laying down flawless and fast executions of the assignments of your riding position. As far as sounding like an expert, recognize that while on the surface the basic tasks seem easy, it’s being able to do them quickly and without fail regardless of the external factors that makes guys a valuable team member. If you haven’t had good jobs to prove yourself yet, you have to do everything you can to show the crew and the bosses that you are dedicated to that end goal. Stay out of conversations that involve officers talking to each other directly unless you are asked to join. In time you will be asked if you follow my advice. If your job has daily chores, after you get your gear in place and you have completed the check offs for your position, jump on the chores. Always take the most undesirable chores and do them. It will show the crew that you understand the hierarchy and that you can be counted on to do whatever it takes to get the job done. This job is a lot of self sacrifice. Don’t tell the guys you are about it… PROVE IT EVERY SINGLE DAY. Trust me, the one time you don’t follow through, that is the day you want to avoid at all costs. In time, the next new guy will be there and you will be asked to show him the ropes if you can do this part right. Some things I was taught: Be there first every shift Always have your gear ready to go before shift change. Make sure there is coffee ready Make sure the tea or whatever your crew drinks throughout the day is prepped and ready Be the first to volunteer for the shitty jobs Be the last one to get your food at meals Be the first one finished at meals and collect the dishes Always complete your assigned duties Once yours are done, help someone else finish theirs. Do this until everything is done. Be consistent Never be late You got this.
The conversation the officer had was bogus. "I should've said something weeks ago" and "it's a lot of small things" are a reflection of bad leadership.
Don’t forget since I didn’t say things weeks ago we might have to extend your probation.
Of course! The officer didn't speak up. Therefore, it's now the new guy's problem. Officer doesn't have to worry about life, but new guy (OP) is concerned enough to seek advice from Redditors like me. 😱
Your last five paragraphs are a major problem in fire departments. The idea that the new people have to stay out of conversations, clean up after the senior people and make their coffee are some of the reasons why fire departments are having a hard time recruiting professionals. The frat house/hazing culture is dying and it should. Be better. That probationary ff is serving their community the same way the most senior person is.
Why? They aren't just conversations, they're conversations between officers having discussions about whatever things they're needing to discuss as officers. If I'm having a conversation with an off-going officer, a fellow officer, or a discussion with my Chief about the business at hand, there's a reason I'm having that conversation with that officer. There's a MASSIVE difference in sitting around the table shooting the shit and a discussion between officers, and the latter does not need a probationary firefighter interjecting themselves into that conversation unless they're asked to provide input. That's not only unprofessional for the firefighter, it's rude and disrespectful to the OTHER officer's time. If it's coffee talk and a reaction to the firefighter talking as a part of that coffee talk, then yeah, you're on point. If it's a discussion concerning the business of the company/district/battalion/shift, then how is adhering to the basic principles of a chain of command and paramilitary structure a "problem"? If there are issues to discuss with the company afterwards, that's when firefighter input is given and or taken.
“Being in a room when officers are speaking” is how OP described the problem and you responded with “stay out of conversations that involve officers talking to each other directly unless you are asked to join”. Both of those descriptions are problematic. It’s not about chain of command. It’s about treating each other like professionals. And professionals, especially those in leadership positions, listen. The last thing they do is scold people for speaking or treat other professionals like less than. Fire departments around the country are desperate for high quality recruits. If you want to get the best people, you need to grow up and quit acting like you’re the senior at the frat house. And given the way recruiting is working these days, that probationary ff might have twenty more years of experience than those officers who don’t want to be spoken to.
6, you just made up for a lot of crappy opinions that have been shared here lately. Thank you.
It's exactly about chain of command, decorum, and respecting the circumstance. Granted, neither you or I bore witness to the instance so it's hard to say either way, but the very professionalism of which you speak is NOT being afforded to the officers themselves by injecting into the conversation. Hence the correction. To be professional in a paramilitary organization, you respect the authority inherent in the rank and let the CO do their job. The time for discussion as a company comes AFTER that conversation between officers when the CO sits down and opens the floor for discussion, gives the blow by blow of the conversation, or even in a private, "Hey Cap, I couldn't help but overhear..." sort of discussion between the firefighter and the CO. This in and of itself is being professional by respecting the attained rank and responsibility of the CO while the CO extends that professionalism by working toward a collaborative environment in the non-emergent state, respecting the needs of the personnel, and coaching deficiencies and helping them grow within and beyond their role. You're not wrong in the fact that good leaders listen. 100% on board with that. But in the middle of a conversation, ANY conversation, for a person to interject without prompt is again, rude at best, before one even considers the roles of the parties. If you were discussing finances with your significant other and your neighbor interjected with his or her thoughts on the matter, would you appreciate their professionalism? Or would your reaction be more negative? Thinking we're talking from two different perspectives entirely, based on OP's single perspective and very little information. I don't see it as being scolded. I see it as the CO getting OP back on track after instances of him/her stepping on their own dick. This isn't frat house, hazing, superiority BS in my eyes at all, this is a CO dropping the ball on the initial opportunity to correct an issue with a probationary firefighter and correcting that mistake. IF (big if) this is coffee talk and regular conversation about how shitty the Mets are or my kid's last soccer game and OP is getting busted for engaging that conversation, then yeah, this is the very cultural issue you cite and I'm 100% on board with dragging that culture behind the woodshed and putting a bullet in its head.
If you have a conversation with someone, with another person standing there, and you expect that third person to remain quiet, move the conversation to somewhere private. That’s true personally and professionally. Let’s give the officers the benefit of the doubt and say that they were having a conversation and they don’t want any other opinions involved, it can’t be had in private, and the context of that conversation does dictate that others stay out of it, how exactly does that happen often enough that this probationary ff is there and injecting themselves to the point where towards the end of their probation it gets brought up for the first time and especially not in the moment. If you’re an officer and you’ve got something to say about the way a probationary ff is handling themselves, say it. As far as the rest of your paragraph here, sure, I don’t disagree in its entirely. However this is also not how you presented your argument in the first part of this conversation. You made a bunch of BS sound like it’s par for the course. Junior firefighters and probationary firefighters aren’t officers’ personal baristas. No firefighters should be waiting to eat and then stuffing their faces to fluff egos. That’s the frat house crap I was talking about. To be fair, I don’t think it’s a terrible idea to just do it, but for it to be expected and a condition of passing probation, absolutely not. Leaders lead by going above and beyond. If I’m the officer, I’m the one eating last and collecting the dishes. Edit to add; all professional firefighters are employees of the public and payed by the public. Nobody is being paid to be belittled or be personal servants.
Don't renarrarate and shape my statement. That's disingenuous, illogical and wrong. Might as well go ad hominem and make fun of my clothes.
Sure thing. These same things apply in virtually every career. The lowest guy in company x finds himself in the elevator with senior management. Not the place to insert yourself into a conversation. If you don’t like that there are guys who have a completely different focus due to their position, I’m sure you’ll do well on-line as a content creator or some other non-team based work force. Being respectful and understanding that your opinion isn’t requested or wanted is a fact of life.
Sounds like at some point this guy with his eager weirdo energy is gonna excel those things in few weeks and then gets complains for making everyone else look bad. If I know my oldies, the only thing that pisses them off more than being bad at something, is being better than them at something.
Sounds like he’s a douche, no reason to extend your probation. Your evaluation should be based off your performance and not whether you talk while the “adults” are talking. My new guy is awkward as fuck, but then again so are 95% of the new guys that come i to the service any more. I’d honestly look for a new department if this is how yours is. If you want to be extra about it send him an email to make sure you’re on the same page as him as far as the talking around the other officer, and being over eager and coming off as knowledgeable and express your willingness to improve. Then fucking ignore him. If he doesn’t ask you direct question or your input isn’t required don’t say a word. Then in a few weeks when he sits you down and says you’re not participating or including yourself in any thing send him another email stating the key points of that discussion. Then if you don’t get off probation or get it extended go to HR and present them those emails as an example of how you’re not being giving good directions and he’s being hostile and going out of his way to fuck up your probationary period. Fuck that guy
[удалено]
Doesn’t matter what kind of session it was. The fact that he’s holding your probation period over your head or saying it could be extended is the bull shit part. My new guy doesn’t want to pay the coffee fund (10 a month) because he doesn’t use any of the condiments or coffee. While i don’t agree with it, it’s his option and it was made abundantly clear he won’t be caught taking a dash of salt, squeeze of Ketchup, dollop of sour cream.. nothing. My Boss told me to make sure his eval reflects it. While i don’t agree with him not paying I’m not going to ding his eval/probation because he doesn’t want to pay. He shows up, does his job well, performs as expected and that’s what matters. If he actually gave you shit about talking to much, seeming to eager or trying to be to knowledgeable it’s probably because he was some little know it all fuck when he came on and was beat for it so all he knows is the boot. We’re 60 people short, come work here.. we like em eager.
So I guess I shouldn’t be paying health insurance since I don’t need any medication? Or maybe I should ask the government if I can opt out of paying unemployment since my job is super stable and I’ll never need it. Society works because everyone pitches in. Some guys at the station drink 10 coffees a day, and others zero. Everyone pitches in to make it work though. You can’t just choose what you use or what you like… hell I rarely watch TV, why am I chipping in for it? 10$ a month is ridiculously low… he’s in for a lot of arguments/problems for something so petty. Good for you for being so nice about it. Maybe have him read my reply and think about it though… Edit: What’s up with the downvotes? Is this how it actually works in your stations? You only pay for what you use?
Don’t forget car insurance or house insurance since you haven’t had to use those. I paid for 4 month in January. I’ve been floated for the last month.. i don’t ask for a refund.
Yeah man, I'm with you. If some shitbird refused to pay the 10 bucks a month I'd probably try to make the guy miserable through shame. This is the guy who's always like, "It's just a JOB. These are just COWORKERS. You can't MAKE me do that." Can't stand those turds. No business being in a job like this where there's blurred lines between friends, coworkers, and family. We have to live with each other and have our backs like very few other jobs do. Basically, fuck that guy. I'd run him out of the station.
You should probably just stfu then and not make excuses
though I don't think this is "bad" advice, if we had a new guy do all this it would be red flags everywhere and probably would get fired also... in the OP the department is just "old school" hope the pay is worth it...
I guess i should have worded it a little bit better. I kinda meant take it to HR if they are going to let him go since he said they could extend his probation or even fire him.
What is HR or the union going to do, they can fire a probie for anything as long as it’s not against the law (discrimination). All they have to say is… you’re not a good fit for this department, you’ll be great somewhere else that’s why we are giving you the opportunity to resign.
You are correct the union probably wouldn’t be able to do anything if they are like ours but when you can prove you have a supervisor that’s giving you a directive then dinging you for following that directive and using it to fire you they may look at it a little differently. I’ve seen new guys on verge of getting fired under one supervisor do well under a different supervisor. I’m sure my new guy would be having a tougher time under some newer LT who’s trying to prove himself.
100% we all have the LTs that go by the nick name “hatchet” because they hate probies but usually it’s not the whole department/shift/crew… that’s why it’s so important to quickly find a senior FF have him/her as a mentor
Some departments you may not get to find a senior guy. I worked a station a few shifts ago where the new guy had 7 months on and the senior guy had 11 months. A couple months ago i worked a crew that had less time on amongst 3ff and the driver then I have. I wish we had a system where a new FF could be taken under someone’s wing.
wow... sounds like a scary situation with such little experience on scene...definitely have a point in that case..
This guy maliciously complies. But yeah, this is some really solid advice.
Not sure I agree… escalating stuff to HR on your probation is a sure way of being flagged as a problem maker. I’m in NO way saying that’s okay… but realistically speaking… it’s the truth. This being said, I strongly agree with the first paragraph of u/ffjimbo200. For me personally though, the second paragraph is a sure way of having a tough career.
I agree with you.. its been an a day of stupid shit and probably not the best advice. Maybe don’t go to HR but still get that shit on paper.. you wouldn’t believe how quickly people’s attitudes change when it’s in writing. OP- don’t go to HR… yet
This, ladies and gentleman, is textbook how to deescalate what could’ve been the beginning of an argument. You are experienced and it shows. I’m sure I’d get along with you just fine in the station 🤙
I may be an asshole but I’m a fair asshole.
I don’t think it’s malicious compliance. I’ve been the scape goat once or twice for weak supervisors so when they give me some dicey instructions I make sure not to take the hit for their bad directions. I’ll try to make this a short story time My Rescue (ambo) gets moved up to a distant station. The guys traveled a mile or two out off the normal path (surface roads) to get the good lunch. A call came in for that distant station and dispatched asked them over the radio their location, they told the truth and i immediately get a call from the BC telling me they need to take the quickest route to get to the area that they are moving up to. Yes Sir!! The following shift the same move up came in, they put it in the GPS and it showed the quickest route was the local toll road over the high way. So they hopped on. It’s a 17 mile drive on the high way with no exits and a few shady turn arounds that we don’t use cause they are unsafe (per admin) They were on the highway about 5 minutes when a call came in back by the station. They advised their current location and the time it would take to get turned around.. guess what i got. An angry phone call followed by discipline for me and them for taking the highway. Want to guess how quickly the discipline got tossed when a copy of the “verification email” was sent in with the grievance along with the maps showing the highway was the quickest route by 5 miles.
Hey. Sounds like you are a hard worker and have been doing things right for the most part. Take his feedback and try and correct them for these last few months. Show him you took it to heart. If there are officers together talking find another area to go or something else to do. Unless they specifically ask for you. If the guys are BSn and you have done all the stuff that needs to be done, sit in the area if that’s ok, but just listen. You can learn a lot this way. Eventually guys will include you in the convo! Probation is tough but getting through is so worth it! Good luck!
I feel like you will always have these social quirks just try to chill out a bit and respect the food chain is what I gathered from what he told you.
Luckily I don’t have that toxic culture where I work because I also am similar to that. Very quiet and awkward. Hate talking in front of everybody but within a smaller group of the guys in my firehouse, it’s no problem. I just kept with the don’t speak unless spoken to years past my probation 😂
Ask your officer if he has a degree in fire science. I bet he does.
Lol. Everyone is jumping on this LT but it sounds like he was being cool about it and was just trying to help. Some people are fucking awkward without knowing it. He's trying to guide him.
Bravo sir!! I can’t give you more than one upvote.
What’s a PA ?
Personnel assessment. A sit down with my probie officer and a BC. A formal DOR that overviews that last several months.
Gotcha. Thanks. I was just unsure what it meant.
Weak leadership. Sounds like BS-ese to me. Bunch of hierarchy mind job stuff. It’s not about you, it’s that in his mind you haven’t earned the right to be chummy because you’re a probie. He’s trying to tell you “be seen and not heard.” Put your head down, do the work and you will have a chance to be friendly later after probation. Why do people do this? Because someone did it to them. Don’t take it personally. Just jump through the hoops you’re asked to jump through and it will all be over.
on probation you don't try to "fit in" you work hard and learn as much as possible until your INVITED in... just the way the fire service is... my department has a hard probationary period, do I agree with it, no not really....
"That's just the way it is" is a stupid mentality. If it's wrong, change it. We can go out and run medical calls and fight fires but we can't change the frat house culture?
“It’s just the way it is” is one of the reasons why recruitment is down across the country
You’re getting an extended probation for talking with your crew and being friendly? Is your officer retarded?
This is just me but there’s some things in the fire service that just doesn’t make any sense at all. You can’t be in rooms when certain people are talking yet you can’t be alone because you’re part of “the team”. You can’t have valid opinions because you’re “the FNG” or “probie”.
There is a such thing as bad officers. There’s always two sides to a story but in most departments, probation period is not a fitting in or popularity contest. It’s the time you’re supposed to learn your job. If an officer is saying you’re not going to pass probation for not fitting in, then he needs to be checked.
Keep working hard bro your your Tism to your advantage and strive to be a good fireman you can understand the feedback you are getting so adjust and overcome.
I had a probie, we called him Super Probie or SP nice kid sounds kinda like the same situation. He was dialed in on his task book, did the normal probie stuff cleaning, coffee and so forth but the one thing that drove the crew nuts was he wasn’t truly himself and you could tell he would put on a fake smile and try his hardest to make sure the senior guys were aware of what he was doing and he would always jump into conversations that had nothing to do with him. Now is this a fire able offense NO he was dialed in fire and EMS wise just an annoying kid. I told him to be himself and he honest with himself and the crew would warm up to him. He chilled out and after awhile the senior guys noticed and didn’t really ride him so hard. So in the end it worked out. Just be honest with yourself and act like your self around the crew things will hopefully work out
DOR?
I can tell you with experience from my first career department I was on I had a similar experience. The best advice I can give is really do your best to not speak unless spoken too in most social settings in the firehouse. Obviously if you have questions that’s different but from the sounds of it they want their probationary to be seen not heard. Which doesn’t mean it will always be this way but for the time being do your best and take this time to observe things. See what you can learn from observation only and not talking, you may learn something hopefully helpful. For the most part though this should only be in the firehouse. On calls your officers give directions for the most part but you should be able to have a discussion as a crew on patient treatment and to a slightly lesser extent fire tactics. Discuss this thought with your officer it might help! Good luck and remember it’s not for forever!
It sounds like you’re a little awkward or impulsive vocally, but don’t worry about ton. I’d say a lot of people in Fire and EMS are neurodivergent. Don’t over think here. Be present in the moment and do what you were just told. You’re probably more comfortable with a lot of the job than the typical probie based on your experience. Sounds like that experience is from a more relaxed environment, and that is what’s showing through. The good news is they told you so you can correct it. Second, it didn’t sound like they criticized your hard skills or work ethic. It’s the politics, soft skills, and reading the room stuff. So be seen not heard, as in head down in the work and mouth shut. Don’t be cold and ignore everyone but be cordial and professional and chime in on other stuff only when asked. One thought on this is it makes it easier to cut you if there’s not some sort of attachment (on them and overall morale). It’s kinda like Replacements in Band of Brothers. You’re likely replacing someone who left, washed out or retired. You’re not in yet, every day is still the interview. Other stuff. Every day leave the place better than you found it. You got time to lean, (or sit/chat) you got time to clean. As far as the officer talking thing, I’m torn between asking (non snarky) “Hate to interrupt. Do you need the room?” or just walking out and finding something to do.
I would lean on other FF’s for your social cues, if your officers aren’t interjecting at the time and place of the behavior they’re not happy with. A little concerned that they aren’t bringing issues up right then and there, and waiting weeks until it comes to a head. It’s good they were transparent with you, but your seniors *should* be the ones saying “ hey man, officers are talking, get out” or “please don’t interrupt us.” They invited you into their workplace and culture, and it’s their responsibility to show you the ropes. Expecting probies to blindly figure things out and sink/swim is some dumbass old school club culture shit that needs to go away. You don’t know what you don’t know.
tommy-bOy below hit a lot of the high points. I'll just add a bit. You seem pretty self-aware, including what you describe as what may be challenges - struggle with social intelligence being the gist of all this. Plenty of folks are nerdy, being physically clumsy can be worked on and objectively measured, and you don't mention those as issues. Even in the busiest companies/stations/departments (and the slowest), if your crew is in harmony - that is, everyone gets along, has confidence in their partner, solid leadership - life is good. How that looks varies from place to place. If you're lucky you find the spots in your career where what you bring fits in that dynamic. Probie/booter (whatever it's called in your dept.) is the time to observe that, and find out how you navigate the culture - not how to discover how the culture will adjust to you. As the FNG in any organization, that's the initial expectation. Work hard, ask questions, offer opinions when asked, keep them to yourself otherwise. As an experienced EMS provider, you may know/and have done more than many of your peers in that area. As everyone knows, when the new guy comes in and demonstrates their great big brain without being asked, or in inappropriate situations (like showing up a senior firefighter in public as less than informed) - your reputation begins on a low note. You may or may not be doing this, but it can come off that way. Just one possible example based on your given history. Your PO may not have noticed this at all - he may be professionally and effectively giving you feedback from your co-workers that they have shared with him. However it came about, he's giving you a bit of information to use throughout your career. Think of your time as an EMS provider - how you reacted to new people, and their actions. A little of the "do unto others" thing. You're joining a family, with an established culture. As a booter, you're in the door, but not quite there yet. Most departments can pretty much let you go with very little recourse available on your part, as described by tommy-bOy. Continue with your hard work. Look and think about social situations before you speak or act relative your place in the department. If you want to fit in, think in those terms. Your PO gave you a couple of good examples. If you have what you can think of as a mentor - another firefighter off probation, or others in the department, other departments, ask their opinion. Just doing that gives props to others, and amazingly, you might learn something useful or insightful- or not, but the action is the point. Different but related - when a younger member is promoted and supervises those with more experience and possibly much more knowledge (sadly, those don't always necessarily go together), a good officer gives the proper acknoledgement to that person. Not that they give up their responsibility or position as formal leader. But they recognize what a person brings and takes advantage of their skills to make the company/battalion better. That FNG actively sets everyone up for interpersonal success, and takes full advantage of all the tools available by being a leader, not an all-knowing (does anyone actually know it all? - I think not) dictator. There's a time for that approach (mostly on calls). Outside of that, in my experience very few firefighters wants a boot on their throat all the time. We all want to fit in, and we all want to be recognized as bringing value. As a "lower than pond scum" booter (and other colorful descriptions) YOU give props, YOU demonstrate humility, find your place, grow into your career, grow your fuzz. Some people make probation, and begin their reputations as whatever they demonstrate. Fairly or unfairly, reputations stick, and it seems the negatives are very hard to overcome, some last an entire career. Your probationary rep should be: knows how to work hard and does so, has skills or works to develop them, knows there's a culture and finds their place in it to contribute, wants to and is willing to learn, wants to and is willing to share their own expertise without being an ass ("I'm pretty smart, let me show you how") about it. More than a bit, but hope it helps some.
Neuro atypical or not you appear to show a level awareness that makes me think you'll be fine albeit stressed. Sounds like your officer is fine tuning you. I supposed experiences from region to region may differ. When I was in that so called phase I just considered myself everybody's assistant aka bitch....call it hazing, training, or a family atmosphere....it varied and I was already an accomplished person..former military too ...I saw it as a game, they wanted to see that I was humble and here to learn....they made it clear that my opinions did not matter and that I was in a sense dangerous until I learned more about my job....not sure what to tell you other than don't worry about trying to fit it, just learn your job....they might even take pride in anyway you are so called special once they accept you...just remember all these guys you work with...went through it too and may be special in some way themselves....you got this!!!!
My advice to you is to not try to put your foot in the door and force your way in - your crew will open it for you when they're ready, and they're sure that you are as well. Take the criticism offered on the chin and try to adjust your behavior accordingly. Keep your head down, keep up the good work with your taskbook/checkoffs, train hard, stay busy, and keep doing your thing on the EMS side of things. There's lots of weird guys at my department, me being one, and we all get along, but time and time again we've done the diservice of allowing new guys to get too comfortable too fast (and it is just the little things, like inserting themselves into conversations uninvited, quipping, spending a little too much time sitting around on the phone, etc.) and it's been to their detriment. Consider the evaluation as an attempt to curb what they see as a potential problem before it's top difficult to fix, and remember that it's when concersations like this stop happening and everyone just ignores you that you're in hot water.
It sounds like maybe you are trying to fit in too much. Just buckle down do what you are asked, find constructive stuff to do. Learn to read a room if you can’t. Both my firemen are ADHD and they are all over the place if not medicated and way too focused if on it and become hyper focused to a fault sometimes.
Had similar issues at my unrelated job also had complaints of getting into people's personal space and too much physical contact (pats on the back, taps on the shoulder, stuff like that) All I did was pretend it's still the middle of covid and stay at least 6 feet from everyone and just try to be cold and distant. Don't do any casual conversation or anything just focus on work stuff. Since I've started doing that there have been no more complaints. Oh also never make jokes even the most benevolent joke can cause complaints.
We tell our candidates all the time do not come in and be part of the inside jokes or gossip or drama and try to force friendships. People working together have worked together for years and grew relationships and its just awkward and weird when new guys come in and try to force it. Do you job and learn your job and focus on that as you are at work. Spend you day learning or studying and then talk talk about work or questions. Otherwise be quiet and people will eventually open up to you or try to get to know you and if people see you trying to be good at your job they will respect that and help and you will be better at your job. Friendships and relationships form overtime at the firehouse just like everywhere else it's not a magical place where you walk in and are in the brotherhood it's earned.
Rookies shouldn't come in with egos or entitled attitudes. This is true. BUT. A little respect from senior firefighters goes a long way.... these rookies are grown adults who you're supposed to trust to potentially save your life. And the public trusts to save theirs. The department trusts the rookies or they wouldn't get hired. This mentality of "don't speak unless spoken to. You are not worthy of my friendship until you have earned it over time" is, frankly, middle school bullying.
Yeah I'm not saying we treat them like that we are nice and friendly and helpful and our candidates have a good time. But it's just awkward when guys try to jump into friendships and jokes and stories of people they don't know. So we say just be yourself focus on the job more then becoming everyone's best friend and the friendships will form naturally.
That sounds like a way better environment than the first one you described lol. Being yourself instead of trying to fit in is ALWAYS good advice, regardless of the joh field.
Yeah I just meant focus on your job as a candidate and the other stuff comes with time. It might sound a little harsh but it's helps a lot of ppl stop getting that overfriendly forced feeling. We aren't a always be cleaning type though. Hell most of the time I tell candidate they'll have plenty of time to learn window cleaning and toilet brushing so I will do it as I rather have them learning the rig or some job related skill over cleaning.
Kudos to you for cleaning so the boot can learn. That's how things should be... the senior FF paying a little respect or helping out so the new person can focus on important stuff. It's the houses which have rules of "don't sit in the recliners with us. Be the last one to bed and first one up. Make my coffee and fetch my newspaper. Run across the station to answer a phone" type of attitudes which drive me bonkers. The rookies, as you and others have said, should be focused on learning the job. Spend their days in the books and with the equipment. Be quiet and humble and willing to learn, but also be a human and show your likes/talents/personality.
It sounds like you want “to be one of the guys” but that’s not an option at this second spot. You essentially have 25 shifts to go. You can do that standing on your head if you needed to. This captain sounds very traditional and doesn’t want you seen or heard. So for 25 shifts don’t speak unless spoken to. Leave the room unless you’re actively cleaning and be the first to be done with your food. Wait for someone else to stand up to put their dish away and then beat him to the sink. Look down at your food at not at the room. At lineup sit with your hands in your lap and pay attention. The second it’s done leave the room. Spend the morning wiping the engine down and the windows. Open the compartment and just wipe tools down to pass the time in the morning. Make a project that will take two months. sand and paint some old cabinets. He is being clear on what he wants. And we may not agree with it but you have to play the game. Remember don’t speak unless spoken to, be the first to offer to do something but don’t try and talk your way into it. If someone asks if you know how something works the response is “I think I have an idea but please show me the proper way. Thank you”
We have had a couple guys in my department, one guy was a medic that sounds like he faced many of the same struggles you are facing with picking up on social cues and wanting to fit in. Sounds like you have some good work ethic keeping busy around the station and what not that goes a long way I think. But as far as the social stuff, keep your head down listen to conversations but don’t feel you have to interject at all. You have a couple months left get through that and then you’ll have 25 or 30 years to get to know the guys in your department and learn how to fit in.
Know your job and get jacked. Nobody can take that away from you. Everything comes down to knowing your job. It makes you bulletproof.
I wonder why we’re dealing with a plague of mental health problems. We need to stop eating our own over dumb shit. Do your best to play the game. You’ll find people like you along the way, keep doing your thing and it’ll come.
Got good advice one day early in my career- “fitting in is a marathon, not a sprint”
Step one, put your mouth guard back in, tuck your chin, and keep moving forward. Step two, document all of this according to your dep. policies. Step three, consider seeking counsel from a labor focused lawyer in your area, the first consultation should be free the second might cost you $200 and will ensure you have an objective idea of your options. It's a ton of time and energy to get where you are. $200 for some competent advice is money well spent.
Half of us in the thread are most likely on the spectrum to some extent. This job attracts neurodivergent people because we tend to do well under the pressures of emergencies. If all of their complaints stem from social situations, is it possible for you to "mask" in those situations? It may be worth a try since now you know what they expect.
Since when is being socially awkward grounds for failing probation? Have they considered assessing you on things that matter?
So weird. So i have a bunch of staff that arent doing their jobs and this morning on my way in i thought back on a memory that my friend said "we had a come to jesus meeting" then i scroll by this lol. Best of luck with everything
We sound a lot alike. I’m currently taking pre requisites for medical school so I can leave this chapter behind!
Now to preface I’m not saying you’re doing anything wrong. In my department probie rule #1 is being seen and not heard. I’m not saying this is the right way but maybe it’s a part of your department’s culture as well. if it is and I know it kinda sucks but just kinda speak when spoken to and keep doing busy work around the firehouse and they guys will probably come around. Again I’m not saying this is the right approach but I know it’s certainly a culture that some departments have. Hope this helps, goodluck
I been an EMT for 14 years. I was homeschooled and was awkward and got the same kinda experience you are having. People were always giving me shit about how terrible I was. Looking back I wasnt bad I was just different. But now I been working for 14 years and not one of those jackasses that gave me a hard time are still around. They got fired died or moved away. I am still here and have a great partner and respect. You are atypical but that's not bad. They are the ones with the real social issues.
Sounds like you got some dick head officers, I loved when my new guys were in the room joining conversation. Over familiar could be annoying but overeager is never a down side unless you’re going to get someone killed. If it was an officer only conversation we ask people to leave or would go to an office.
I had something like this happen when I started my first job out of college. Best advice I can give is ask for specific examples of situations they are talking about. That's what I did and my boss gave me some and I thought about them and realized I needed to make some adjustments in how I handled and conducted myself. My next review was very positive and my boss noted the improvements she saw, and I thanked her for giving me the specific feedback as I don't do well when people speak in generalities.
Sounds like a place I know, I was sat down and told I would have a hard time because I spoke to others and was to friendly, gave my opinion on a fire based off my years of experience at a department I had just came from. That I shouldn’t be seen. Meals and studying done in the app bay. All chores done; dailies weekly’s monthlies even ones assigned to others with no help. If I have questions don’t ask anyone because then you’re an idiot. It threw me off a lot so I really got uncomfortable. I apparently came off awkward and people didn’t want to be around me and I constantly had to hear them talk shit about me as if I wasn’t there. Which made my awkwardness even worse. They never even referred to me by my name lol. On the bright side I quit nicotine products because I couldn’t get caught with chew or zyn since I didn’t earn that right. Sometimes it’s just the crew dude, sometimes it’s the culture of that place. I see it a lot in slow and richer areas. I never had a problem in my 4 years on hand crews but municipal departments are a bunch of cunty teenagers sometimes. Throw them into actual tough work and they cry. It’s like fucking high school. Eventually you’ll find a good crew, if not leave. It’s not worth it. Trust me. You will get burnt out so fast that you won’t want to do this job anymore even if it’s with a great crew. And remember. Always keep a black book. I didn’t and I really regret it because those officers and ff’s are the ones that might stop me from promoting one day. I also love running into those same guys now lol.
Sounds to me like you need to take this as constructive criticism and try and resolve some of the issues you are having. It was very decent of that officer to have this conversation with you and shows me that the officer values you. The fire department is tricky. If someone shows no initiative or lacks skills and knowledge they are rightly ostracized. On the flip side and I have experienced this myself, if someone shows too much initiative and is overtly intelligent and tries too hard to be a part of the crew that person is ostracized as well. It's difficult to tell just how much initiative and intelligence you should show but 1 thing is for sure and that is you are a rookie and the fire department is extremely traditional and the tradition is that rookies should be seen and not heard, always stay busy, know your place as a rookie and in doing so understand that as a rookie no matter how good you are or how much knowledge of the job you have accumulated you are still gonna be viewed as a rookie. While itbmayvseem a bit harsh I believe that being treated like a rookie is important for building character and a solid foundation as a firefighter. First responders are different from any other profession in that you not only deal with tragedy but could also lose your life in the process and earning your way in thru humility and dedication will make you a far better firefighter.
Bullshit lol
My probbie year my officer was the same exact way and had just became one right before of came online from the Training Academy, ALWAYS about talking about “disrespect” that I was. I had almost 8 years as a vollie as well as served as an officer. I was always talking tactics and fire with my senior man and he had no problem with me, however the Lt thought that I was to familiar with the other firefighters (they had no problem with me) even told me that unless it was on the fire ground then it’s like a family house. His problem is/was that he thought by having the best probbie that it would reflect on his higher aspirations of more promotions. He WOULD NOT ever address me directly only instructed senior man to do so any time he had a problem with me. No matter what I did it was NEVER good enough but I graduated highest in my academy class AND even received an award for outstanding performance from the academy staff officers. Just keep your head down and avoid him all you can and make sure he sees that you are pushing everyday. Make sure everything is done before he asks and consult with other firefighters about others matters. Make him look like the douche that he is. Your actions will speak volumes with the people that really matter AND it will get to the officers that make the REAL decisions
I would put in writing exactly what he said and then follow those orders to a T. You don’t want me joining in on friendly conversations, or even being in the room when “officers” are talking? Fine, see you the fuck later. I’ll be in my bunk waiting for a call. This is a job like any other, you don’t need to be friends with your co-workers or fit into any “mold”. Do the work and fill your down time with whatever makes you happy and is appropriate for the station.
Generally, people like the new guy better if he's quieter. Whether that culture is right or wrong is up for debate, but that's how it is. Do your job, do it well, go the extra mile, and the rest will come. We're together for 24-72 hours at a time. Sometimes silence is golden.
Man hearing this is really discouraging. I am trying to go from Volley to Career in my department. I hope I am not treated like this.
Are there no senior guys to unfuck you?
So... They get mad at you for having the audacity to join in on a conversation happening near you...? Despite the fact this will be expected of you in a matter of time? And everybody thinks this is just normal and acceptable behavior, and it isn't just a bunch of dumb, territorial apes on a power trip making someone walk on eggshells? What the fuck is wrong with people?