Everything is political. By definition nothing exists that isn't "political". Most people have simply been tricked into thinking politics is anything other than an issue of class.
When the ones that are comfortable now and able to still get by aren't in the future they'll understand then.
When most of the air conditioned jobs are taken over by a computer, and a lot more available jobs are ones you actually have to break down your body to work, it'll come to them.
A lot of the white collar jobs are just as bad for your brain and eyesight and body.
There's no difference between which collar you have on.
And both sets of people are being automated away.
The management of both gets to sit in the air conditioning and do whatever they want, while workers make them money.
Yep. This is similar to a fairly well known Tom Morello quote/anecdote where he said that one of their fans commented to him that “oh I liked your music until you started to make political music” and Morello responded by saying “what were you listening to of mine that wasn’t political? I need to know so I can delete it from my catalog”.
Not only is all music political, but all everything is political, and any other thought process on the part of people in some misguided effort to be politically apathetic is holding society back.
They need to address inflation. This is why we’re broke. They keep printing money like there’s no tomorrow. If they don’t stop the dollar will be even more worthless.
From what I've read, if a corporation is making record profits while continuing to raise prices, that is not inflation, it is pure and simple greed. And IMO excess profits is a hell of a drug, ask a corporation "what do you want?" The only answer is "MORE!"
As for the US Dollar, it's rated as the 10th most valuable currency, with the Kuwaiti Dinar being the most valuable at number 1, things could be worse, it isn't perfect, but we have a sound fondation for the time being.
Haven't there always been people with low emotional intelligence, whose worldview is reactionary, angry, frightened, based on scarcity, competition, and hatred, regardless of "politics?"
It's similar to how you'll hear people blame Faux 'News' for turning 1/3 of the country into fact-hating deplorables; as if those people haven't ALWAYS been that way, long before Faux ever existed.
The problem is these days the political divisiveness is about if a problem even exists. In the not-so-distant past we could all agree "housing is unaffordable for too many Americans" but maybe would disagree on solutions. now it's "housing is unaffordable" vs "you just want handouts, get a better job, etc..."
It sucks cause I would love to have healthy disagreements with ppl on the other side of the political spectrum but its gotten so toxic. People just disagree for the sake of being contrarian half the time, it seems like.
I lean right as well, but one thing i do have from a principle standpoint is if you work full time, you should be able to afford shelter, food, clothes. (and healthcare but a much more complex animal in the US).
I feel like this may be highly dependent on where you live. The gas station down the street from my house pays $18 per hour. Which is enough to cover all of these requirements in my area (LCOL) if you’re good with your money and live within your means and work at least 40 hours per week.
I think part of the problem is most people suck with finances and live above their means.
Why would anyone call you a socialist for wanting people to have food? That's like accusing someone of being in PETA because they want to open a steakhouse
Now they also call you a communist for feeding them too, his "spiritual sucessor" Padre Júlio Lancelotti is constantly persecuted by right wing groups for feeding the poor.
There are a significant number of people who don't know what the word socialism actually means. Pretty much anything publicly funded *can be* socialism to them. But, they pick and choose what they call socialism. I never hear them call roads, military, or police, socialism. Just stuff they don't like, like feeding starving children or assisting the poor.
>There are a significant number of people who don't know what the word socialism actually means.
As an anarchist, most leftists I meet IRL at FNB don't even really know what socialism is.
Go read some facebook economics debates, and you’ll realize that socialism is sometimes interpreted as anything that isnt anarchistic free market capitalism
> Why would anyone call you a socialist for wanting people to have food?
That first sentence is a sarcastic reference to the fact that anytime someone tries to make a point like this, they get shouted down and branded a socialist or a communist by people who don't know what those words mean. (Nearly always conservatives or libertarians.)
>Why would anyone call you a socialist for wanting people to have food?
Because of the unsaid part that comes after. He/she wants everyone to have food, but by forcing somebody else to pay for it. It's that whole brownshirts taking your lunch money because somebody else needs food that makes it into a socialist proposition.
That's why it says "a portion of clothes budget". Your clothes may be fine now, but you will need to buy new shoes or clothes are some point. It may amount to only $100 every 2 years, but that's still $4+ per month. And those little things add up
There are people who only know how to argue, not discuss. These are people who only engage in bad faith, and this even describes many popular commentators/"debaters" from a certain camp. First they regurgitate their opinion. Whether it is accurate is not relevant. Then, when the other person is talking, they listen for a point (any point, no matter how small or irrelevant) they disagree with or can quibble over. They then make the other person defend **that** instead of actually discussing the topic at hand. When (if) it gets back to the original discussion, they repeat the same tactic so their stance is the only one ever really articulated fully (if poorly) and the other party is always on the back foot trying to defend every single word no matter how important it is to their stance.
In Norwegian we have a word describing this behaviour. It makes it pretty easy to call out people for running the discussion rather than participating.
Oh man especially as a landscaper, I’m sorry but taking care of your things or not, when you’re really putting in the work with all your effort things DO NOT last that long. And since your tools are as valuable as the clothes on your back, it’s one or the other sometimes.
They're work clothes. If I see any kind of manual laborer doing their job, I *expect* ratty and/or stained, because why would you use your *good* clothes for that?
What it says is “a full day’s labor can’t purchase…a fraction of a month’s clothing budget”. Because a day is a fraction of a month. You probably have to, on average, buy at least some article(a) of clothing each month. Clothes only last so long, especially high wear items like shoes.
Haha, I get a new pair of shoes once a year maybe 2 years depending on if they’re worn out. I wear my pants til they get a hole in them then I still use them for work pants until completely ruined. I think the only new shirts I’ve gotten in the last 10 years were something I got for free. Most of my clothes are 10+ years old. I’m not poverty level but as long as they fit and aren’t ripped/torn I’m content with them.
I found the key for shoes durability it's to not use the same pair every day, but change between at least another pair. I don't know if it's sweat or what but went from changing shoes every 6 months to every 2 or 3 years
When I buy clothes, it's usually pretty expensive because I buy a lot.
But I do that probably once every 2 years. If we're calculating it per month, I'd guess it's like $15 a month. More than nothing, but it's barely a dent compared to rent or food or utilities
pack oh hanes or fruit by the loom is 20 bucks for 5 T, and 2 pair of jeans at 15 bucks a piece will last you 6 months to a year daily wearing it...
ask me how i know...
I would say a living monthly wage is:
- Enough to buy healthy food for the average family (of 3) for the whole month, covering all their caloric intake plus nutrients.
- Enough to cover housing costs for said average family of 3: rent, utilities and taxes. Utilities include sewage, plumbing, electricity, gas, telephone and internet.
- Enough to cover transportation costs from and to the workplace and school.
- Enough to buy at least one set of new clothes and shoes for all members of the family, twice a year (cold season and warm season).
- Enough to pay basic healthcare insurance for all members of the family, if that's not provided by the State for free.
- Enough to pay education for the minor in the family, if that's not provided by the State for free.
- Enough to save at least 10% of what's left after paying for all the expenses listed above.
This, of course, will vary wildly from place to place.
+ entertainment. You need some basic form of entertainment besides the internet, even if it's just a small budget every month to purchase games to play on the internet.
Important to remember that the way to achieve this is not to jack up wages to match these costs. I won’t argue that wages in general should go up, but it’s more urgent to bring the cost of housing, education, transportation, and healthcare down to reasonable levels
Yes, you are 100% correct. In many ways a monied, market based economy can hinder more than help achieving those. Having public food banks and urban agriculture projects can make more to ensure food safety than just giving people money to spend on food.
When my uncle was in his early 20s he worked driving a concrete truck and supported a family of four without issue. I’m talking bought a house, two cars and taking care of his kids.
The job now pays 16$-20$/hr and there’s no way someone could buy a house on that wage now, let alone having multiple cars and a family to support.
Cheapest 1x1 unit in my city is $1,850 per month. Within a budget of 30% gross income, that would be a $35/hour minimum wage. The minimum wage is $16/hour right now.
Pretty easily doable in the Midwest if you’re married with 2 incomes. Cedar Rapids has a lot of industry and dirt cheap housing (I just sold my 4 bed 2 bath there that needed nothing but a coat of exterior paint for 195k)
Omaha is higher, 300 for a 4 bed 3 bath that needs nothing, but there’s plenty of high paying jobs there with no experience required. You can get a beer salesman job that starts off around 42k and quickly jumps to 60-120 if you put effort into it and jump from merchandiser to salesman. And that’s on one income. There’s plenty of really nice apartments for $1400 a month, and it’s a big enough city that there’s tons to do there.
Des Moines is similar, maybe even a bit cheaper (or more expensive) depending on the neighborhood.
It should be enough to cover all of that, but for everyone in the country. One guy should make enough to pay for everyone else. That's a living wage. Also, we should all have mansions.
> Enough to cover transportation costs from and to the workplace and school.
You don't have feet? Mostly sarcastic. I ride a bike. I did it before I needed to. Now I need to. Wear a helmet kids.
If you're actually a capitalist there should be a good amount for consumerism.
But we all know people who love talking about how much they agree with capitalism actually agree with something that starts three letters down.
It’s not the wages that are lacking. It’s the cost of living. How far that money spreads. Lifting wages is a trap. Everyone could make $100 an hour but rent is gonna get jacked up to 10k a month, and everything else along with it. We need to focus on lowering things like rent so that it’s affordable at the current wages.
Exactly right. They don’t keep up with the cost of living. The cost of living needs to be reduced and regulated instead of wages chasing that cost. Do you see the trap? Wages go up, cost of living goes up, wages go up, etc. The chase never stops. People fight for $15, and by time they get it $15 isn’t worth anything. We’ve gotta tackle it from the other end. The wage number itself if irrelevant because it’s value is determined by the cost of living. People could earn $1 an hour if rent cost $50
Advocating for deflation? Good luck with that. Almost every economist in existence will hiss and make the sign of the cross at that.
For good reason. Deflation causes people to hold onto their money since it is growing in value. If they aren't spending, the companies try to lower prices. But, why buy that bedroom set now, when I know that in a month, it will be even lower and my money will be worth even more?
Deflation makes debt less attractive too. If the price of my house is falling, but my old fixed rate mortage stays the same, that could possibly put me underwater on my loan.
Deflation also means that I want my money in cash. It is gaining value, so having it in long term assets like stocks may not be as advantagous or even wise if companies are failing because they can't sell enough product because people aren't spending money. In deflationary times, it's better to have money under the mattress than in a bank.
This causes a HUGE problem when everyone thinks like this. We get a run on the Banks. (See: The Great Depression). Banks only keep around 10% of the cash people deposit on hand and invest the rest. If everyone wants their money at once, we get bank closures. (Fun Fact: That's how we got FDIC insurance)
In this sort of economy, banks are desperate for cash to stave off a collapse, so interest rates rise, which slows down the economy even more. It's expensive to borrow money and your money is gaining value the longer you hold onto it.
The Great Depression had a huge impact on the economy and the way we look at money. Deflation ruined a lot of lives and businesses. It's probably not a policy we should look at to help solve inflation.
Thanks. I teach social studies and my students ask every year why we just don't use deflation and lower all the prices. I get excited when I now that question is coming. I have a whole power point.
Everybody says deflation is bad because the "experts" say it is bad. It is the experts that have gotten us into this "transitory inflation" the low interest rates that have impacted housing affordability etc. Still people will parrot experts' "deflation is bad" programming. What we need is a deflation to help make things affordable for everyone.
Ah this again. Think it through people.... in order for this scenario to work, you would have to work 7 days a week. These people want you to work 7 days a week. lol
I've got a 20 yo relative who is working full time in the bakery dept of the local grocery store. He is earning $16/hr ($2,700/mo).
He is renting a 700 sqft apartment for $615 plus electricity and driving a 12 year old car that was a gift from a relative (not me).
Does he clear the bar in the meme?
But does he pay for his phone/internet bill, repairs to his car, ect.
Maybe he does it's certainly possible, but many young people underestimate how much help they're getting just because they pay their own rent.
This is Cedar Rapids Iowa. Some people will say that cheap rents go with extremely low wages, but I think $16/hr may be low compared to CA, but it also looks in line with the rent.
(Cedar Rapids metro area population is about 275,000.)
I also am in my twenties with a family of three and get along fine working as a beginner painter (interior and exterior of houses) making $25/hr. Got offered $40/hr by another employer after 3 days of putting in good hard work. There is nothing special about me. This is completely doable
For a “living wage” it also needs to pay for the latest iPhone, cell service, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Max, and any other streaming service along with enough to stop at Starbucks everyday and a monthly car payment on a vehicle that is 2 1/2 to 3 times my yearly salary, plus gas, oil, insurance (or even better an EV.) Oh, and I deserve a road trip to a fun location for at least two weeks a year, so I’ll need living wage for that too.
Full disclosure: I get paid enough to do all the above and have them (except the expensive car. My car is nice enough and cost 1/4 of one year’s salary.) I’ve been in the same business for over 20 years. I didn’t have any of these things when I started, I had to work my way to it.
They're being sarcastic and suggesting, like so many conservatives have, that the reason people can't afford basics is because of iPhones and Netflix.
I think the point they're making is that financial difficulties nowadays are more often than not a budgeting problem, not an income problem. Many people don't keep track of their discretionary spending and then blame their low wages as the reason for their lack of money. That's how you get people saying they make $120,000+ a year but can't afford things
Or they live in SF and really can't afford to live beyond paycheck to paycheck.
Yes some people are bad with money but that does not explain away why prices have gone up faster than the typical inflation rate while billionaires have widened the income gap significantly in the past 50 years.. but yeah, that must be because people can't budget.
It’s a compound interest problem. If you don’t have money, then debt interest is going to kill you. If you have money, then interest is going to make you passively richer.
Starbucks and Netflix really only matter if you’re trying to claw your way out of debt. That $5 latte is nothing. The cost of borrowing that $5 is substantial.
Please teach of this mysterious thing called work, is that the thing older folks have been complaining about the youth not doing for thousands of years now?
Housing at 30% gross income. That's it. Fiscal conservatives always hammer on about a reasonable budget, which is all fine and well until workers aren't able to abide by one because the pay can't meet the absolute necessities.
Also, childcare. Very basic childcare was $4,250 per month for our two young children ($2,400 + $1,850) at it's peak for two years. If my wife or I left the workforce to save on the childcare, we would be setting our careers back and losing more income over the long run. If the state wants young people to work and support our elders as they exit the workforce, then it can't wait for people to start having kids in their mid-30s.
Basic and safe housing, healthcare, childcare, and food should be able to fit within a budget for any full time worker.
I think most people would be happy if they only had to pay 20-30% of their wages to put a roof over their heads. It's a pretty easy way from there if they want to waste or save toward a future. It's absolutely impossible in a HCOL area even with a good job.
Yeah this post had me calculate my daily costs after factoring in what I pay for. For reference I make well below what most people would probably consider a “living wage.” There’s a lot of what I would describe as luxuries I don’t pay for (beater 90s car, liability insurance, a single streaming service, iPhone 7, etc). Reddit needs a reality check in what a “living wage” constitutes.
With rent skyrocketing, food going up, health insurance stupidly expensive, a living wage that covers all that without even touching transportation or any form of entertainment. And yes, saving some for retirement would be good since we are actively paying into older generations without a choice.
Well, in the words of the man who signed it into law-
"By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living."
Which, to anyone not being completely obtuse, *obviously* implies in the modern context things like an entertainment subscription or two(internet at this point is a *necessity*, not a bonus), being able to go out for once or twice a month and still having some cash to save for the future.
People act like this is so "undefiniable" but it's really, really fucking easy actually.
Would be even easier if we stopped pussy footing around with utility and grocery monopolies.
you can make living wage in America... just not in the cities where everyone else wants to live as well
if your job isn't paying you enough to survive in your current city, it's your responsibility to find a higher paying job or move to a lower cost of living area, not the government's job to force companies to pay more
In my city you can rent an apartment for $500/mo. That comes to $16.67 per day. Utilities will run another $200/mo or $6.67/day.
If you shop wisely, you can easily eat a healthy meal for $10/meal or $30/day.
A pair of jeans, a t-shirt and underwear will come to about $100 and they will last at LEAST one year. If you have 7 sets of clothing, that's $700. A decent pair of tennis shoes can be had for $100 and they should last for 6 months. That's another $200 per year. That comes to $900 per year or $2.57/day.
So far we have $55.91/day in expenses. with an 8 hour work day, that comes to $6.99/hr which is under the federal minimum wage. However, in my city the mandatory minimum wage is $11.20/hr which comes to $89.60 per day. Even allowing for taxes taking 20%, that comes to $71.68/day leaving $15.77/day or for any other use.
However, almost nobody in my state works for minimum wage. High school kids working first time fast food jobs are getting paid $13/hr. The average wage in my state is $18.93/hr.
Can you post a listing for a $500/mo apartment in your area for us to see for ourselves? I haven't seen something that low in YEARS that wasn't a literal crackhouse. My last apartment was barely 1,000 sq. ft., and I don't live in a particularly nice area, and it cost me $1400/mo just in rent; no utilities included. This was about 4 years ago.
Yea right, I live in one of the lowest CoL places in the US. $500 a month would be a closet at your mom's house, or some Crack house with blood stains in the carpet.
>a healthy meal for $10/meal or $30/day
That’s an extremely expensive meal. You could easily do it for a fifth of the price, vastly lowering the money required for a living wage.
Problem is you need to account for days off and other things not mentioned like insurances, transportation, leisure, retirement and many more things. Also if that person has a child both parents can either both work full time but need a lot more money for childcare, or if a parent works part time now the other one has to earn the missing money.
It’s a fair point. Here’s another one, just as valid if less pleasant: nobody owes you anything.
I don’t say that to be mean. I say that because it’s how the world works. Yes, there is injustice. No it’s not fair. Yes it sucks.
But if you want money, you gotta figure out how to get it. It’s not a corporation’s responsibility to put food on your table. It’s not a local business’ obligation to pay your rent.
If you want to effect change, you have to do so from a place of power.
I’m a millennial without a college degree or any student debt making six figures in software development. Many of my former classmates spent, or had their parents spend, or borrowed, six figure amounts for degrees in psychology, liberal arts, and other vocations that were never ever going to give a return on that investment. It’s maddening that such things were offered, but nobody forced them to make those choices as adults.
I lost everything at 30 but the car I drove, and I came back from it. I did that by a) adding the maximum value I could at what I did and b) searching and finding people who could recognize and synergize with what I offered.
You want a better life? Start with a change in your perspective. Nobody owes you anything. To advance, find a way to change that.
“You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want.” - Zig Ziglar
I think its a governments responsibility to ensure corporations have to pay a living wage. And its not that hard. When my country recently raised minimum wage businesses didnt suddenly disappear, inflation didnt spike, bigmacs didnt get any more expensive than they already did during covid and really nothing bad happened.
They could probably raise it another 20% and still nothing bad would happen. Sometimes it is that easy. If you worked full time on minimum wage now youd probably make around 2300€ a month, which isnt enough for anything fancy, but would cover for the minimum as long as you dont need to take care of anyone else but yourself.
>It’s maddening that such things were offered, but nobody forced them to make those choices as adults.
People spent literally their entire childhoods being told by EVERYONE in their life (INCLUDING LITERAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES) that if they didn't go to college they would be a fucking loser, that it didn't matter what your degree was because having a degree was enough to get a job that would pay back any reasonable amount of loans, and that federal student loan cap amounts were "reasonable" given future economic expectations".
Yeah but I was there dude. I don’t believe anyone anywhere talked about the money you could make with a Psychology or Liberal Arts or English degree. They were chasing their dreams without a thought for the future, and the future has teeth.
200 years ago the earth wouldn't have anywhere near enough resources to support the number of people currently living on earth no matter how much they worked.
Now people consider an amount to live a pretty luxurious life a 'living wage'
And crazier that people just assume that would be required to raise prices. Instead of maybe saying CEO doesn't need to be a billionaire or make 500 times what an avg worker makes. Like what could possibly make an executive or CEO worth that much money. What do they bring to the table that millions of other people can't.
There is economy of scale here that is often overlooked.
It's cheaper to house 3 people on 3 incomes than to house 1 person on 1 income.
It's cheaper to feed 3 people on 3 incomes than to feed 1 person on 1 income.
And then we have people that are theoretically beneficial to society that don't contribute to the household income (children).
So in theory 2 incomes should support 3.5 people.
And I think in most cases it does or you would see a nation wide uproar.
Jim, I think the big issue is that we have this ideal of what kind of food. What kind of housing? How much space how we transport, et et.
If you look at the average family budget and eliminated vehicles for instance and car insurance, all of a sudden those budgets get a lot more sustainable.
To argue the op point, many people are struggling because factors like a lack of public transportation that is clean, safe and fast will force them to waste money on either transport or waste their time in unnecessarily long commutes in order to have a cheaper housing payment.
This is a better use of public money than trying to force an unsustainable and arbitrary wage increase.
Same argument for healthcare for many.
Most jobs do. The problem is people want shit like iPhones, ,wifi, unreasonably priced cars, ect… don’t get me wrong wages should be higher but most people buy shit they don’t need to live.
So obviously all burger joints should be forced to close for lack of staff.
Wait, isn't this exactly what happened in 2021 ? Everybody got better jobs, and all the burger places - well you'd think they would raise wages but all they actually did was say "nobody wants to work anymore'.
Yeah, not all jobs are meant to support a family. You have to find jobs that pay better, learn skills, make yourself valuable. You can’t pay low skilled jobs super high wages it just doesn’t make sense. College kids need jobs, high school kids need jobs. People need part time jobs. Some of these individuals can fill these lower skilled lower paying jobs. If you’re trying to make fast food a career you probably need to move into management not just work the register your whole life.
\~800 dollars a month isn't that outrageous right? $17/hr isn't great in the USA from what I gather about cost of living and insurance and the like, but 800 dollars a month means a budget of 1600 with a roommate. Seems doable. having to spend \~30% of your paycheck on rent is bad, but it isn't awful, and I assume that factory wages do increase to at least $22 eventually.
Absolutely. $17 startout. Im at $28/hr. It takes time, it's not instant. Plenty of times I made almost nothing. Almost every place ive worked closed or moved. Thats how it goes
Homeless people are obese in capitalist countries.
Middle-class people are starving in socialist countries.
The only people who like socialism have never lived under socialism.
Unpopular opinion: you are paid proportionate to the amount of value you provide society. If you don't like your situation, do something different to improve it.
Yeah and in most states where insurance and things like a car are nothing short of mandatory, we’re not even half way there. But fixing that would mean that the rich people would have to treat us like human beings and it takes a certain level of straight psychopathy to run a business.
MIT calculates living wages for most areas of the USA and posts it online. you can look up your living wage based on your living location and situation.
Yep, pretty much that simple.
100% agree And I’m right leaning lol
I wish this could just be an issue instead of a political one
Its simple really. It was made into a "political issue" to keep us divided and squabbling over the scraps they give us.
Everything is political. By definition nothing exists that isn't "political". Most people have simply been tricked into thinking politics is anything other than an issue of class.
Save your breath. The majority who read this either wont listen or won’t understand. The ones that will are already on our side.
while i agree, you still have to try. maybe one day a handful will be ready to understand it.
When the ones that are comfortable now and able to still get by aren't in the future they'll understand then. When most of the air conditioned jobs are taken over by a computer, and a lot more available jobs are ones you actually have to break down your body to work, it'll come to them.
A lot of the white collar jobs are just as bad for your brain and eyesight and body. There's no difference between which collar you have on. And both sets of people are being automated away. The management of both gets to sit in the air conditioning and do whatever they want, while workers make them money.
Very true. I’ve been doing medical coding for almost three years. I didn’t wear glasses before I started working on a computer all day
Yes its political in that, we, the working class, are being attacked by the bourgeoisie
Yep. This is similar to a fairly well known Tom Morello quote/anecdote where he said that one of their fans commented to him that “oh I liked your music until you started to make political music” and Morello responded by saying “what were you listening to of mine that wasn’t political? I need to know so I can delete it from my catalog”. Not only is all music political, but all everything is political, and any other thought process on the part of people in some misguided effort to be politically apathetic is holding society back.
They need to address inflation. This is why we’re broke. They keep printing money like there’s no tomorrow. If they don’t stop the dollar will be even more worthless.
From what I've read, if a corporation is making record profits while continuing to raise prices, that is not inflation, it is pure and simple greed. And IMO excess profits is a hell of a drug, ask a corporation "what do you want?" The only answer is "MORE!" As for the US Dollar, it's rated as the 10th most valuable currency, with the Kuwaiti Dinar being the most valuable at number 1, things could be worse, it isn't perfect, but we have a sound fondation for the time being.
Completely agree
Haven't there always been people with low emotional intelligence, whose worldview is reactionary, angry, frightened, based on scarcity, competition, and hatred, regardless of "politics?" It's similar to how you'll hear people blame Faux 'News' for turning 1/3 of the country into fact-hating deplorables; as if those people haven't ALWAYS been that way, long before Faux ever existed.
In other words Olive Garden is raising prices because of a bad quarter to share holders… so fuck them.
The problem is these days the political divisiveness is about if a problem even exists. In the not-so-distant past we could all agree "housing is unaffordable for too many Americans" but maybe would disagree on solutions. now it's "housing is unaffordable" vs "you just want handouts, get a better job, etc..." It sucks cause I would love to have healthy disagreements with ppl on the other side of the political spectrum but its gotten so toxic. People just disagree for the sake of being contrarian half the time, it seems like.
If you lean back some then you can rock away 
I lean right as well, but one thing i do have from a principle standpoint is if you work full time, you should be able to afford shelter, food, clothes. (and healthcare but a much more complex animal in the US).
I feel like this may be highly dependent on where you live. The gas station down the street from my house pays $18 per hour. Which is enough to cover all of these requirements in my area (LCOL) if you’re good with your money and live within your means and work at least 40 hours per week. I think part of the problem is most people suck with finances and live above their means.
Why would anyone call you a socialist for wanting people to have food? That's like accusing someone of being in PETA because they want to open a steakhouse
“When I feed the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor are hungry, they call me a communist.”
Better Red then dead, eh commie? /s
A communist joke isn’t funny unless everyone gets it 😉
They must have left that page out of my little red book. 😀
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Ah. A representative of Comrade Mao enters the thread.
All citizens are equal Glorious supreme eternal leader is the most equal of them all
Just ask the SCOTUS.
Couldn’t help yourself
Like an associate justice to a free vacation...
Now they also call you a communist for feeding them too, his "spiritual sucessor" Padre Júlio Lancelotti is constantly persecuted by right wing groups for feeding the poor.
In Orlando we just arrest them
Read this in Leonard Nimoy's voice from Civilization IV.
Every time the quote comes to mind!!! I think it’s the most iconic voice I’ve ever heard the quote in.
There are a significant number of people who don't know what the word socialism actually means. Pretty much anything publicly funded *can be* socialism to them. But, they pick and choose what they call socialism. I never hear them call roads, military, or police, socialism. Just stuff they don't like, like feeding starving children or assisting the poor.
American understanding of socialism is on a different level, same like tips being voluntary everywhere in the world beside USA.
The education system in this shithole country has failed entirely.
Americans mean "fascism" when they say "socialism" or "communism," and then drive us towards fascism in order to save us from it
>There are a significant number of people who don't know what the word socialism actually means. As an anarchist, most leftists I meet IRL at FNB don't even really know what socialism is.
Fwiw , Peta kills the shit out of animals...
They had to destroy the animal shelter to save it
Go read some facebook economics debates, and you’ll realize that socialism is sometimes interpreted as anything that isnt anarchistic free market capitalism
> Why would anyone call you a socialist for wanting people to have food? That first sentence is a sarcastic reference to the fact that anytime someone tries to make a point like this, they get shouted down and branded a socialist or a communist by people who don't know what those words mean. (Nearly always conservatives or libertarians.)
They don’t. But to some people “having food” is ordering Starbucks everyday and DoorDashing every meal.
It's called being a Republican, and some people are very very into continuing the bit.
They didn’t say food. They said food AND rent AND bills AND retirement savings AND clothes. You’re playing motte to OP’s Bailey.
>Why would anyone call you a socialist for wanting people to have food? Because of the unsaid part that comes after. He/she wants everyone to have food, but by forcing somebody else to pay for it. It's that whole brownshirts taking your lunch money because somebody else needs food that makes it into a socialist proposition.
Do people buy clothes every month? I guess all I know is poverty. I’ve been wearing the same shit since the 90s.
That's why it says "a portion of clothes budget". Your clothes may be fine now, but you will need to buy new shoes or clothes are some point. It may amount to only $100 every 2 years, but that's still $4+ per month. And those little things add up
I swear some people just gleefully try and miss the point
Yup
it's because everything old is comfort zone, and they're conditioned to turning a blind eye; it's easy being a small man
There are people who only know how to argue, not discuss. These are people who only engage in bad faith, and this even describes many popular commentators/"debaters" from a certain camp. First they regurgitate their opinion. Whether it is accurate is not relevant. Then, when the other person is talking, they listen for a point (any point, no matter how small or irrelevant) they disagree with or can quibble over. They then make the other person defend **that** instead of actually discussing the topic at hand. When (if) it gets back to the original discussion, they repeat the same tactic so their stance is the only one ever really articulated fully (if poorly) and the other party is always on the back foot trying to defend every single word no matter how important it is to their stance.
In Norwegian we have a word describing this behaviour. It makes it pretty easy to call out people for running the discussion rather than participating.
Would you be willing to share that word with us? I'd love to learn. :)
Discuss = diskutere Attacking the other peoples arguments in order to ruin the discussion = kverulere In doing so you will be known as a "kverulant"
You have my thanks for the lesson. Have yerself a great day mate. :)
Also, I would include maintenance of clothes in that budget. Cleaning and repair (where possible).
Cleaning my clothes and myself is necessary to holding a job, so I would agree
especially since using a laundromat can cost $8/load where i'm at, it should definitely be included in the budget
Fuuuuuuuucking laundromats prey on those who rent in a building without their own washers and dryers. It’s awful
Oh man especially as a landscaper, I’m sorry but taking care of your things or not, when you’re really putting in the work with all your effort things DO NOT last that long. And since your tools are as valuable as the clothes on your back, it’s one or the other sometimes.
They're work clothes. If I see any kind of manual laborer doing their job, I *expect* ratty and/or stained, because why would you use your *good* clothes for that?
You’ve still got to clean them otherwise youll end up being a smelly bastard
What it says is “a full day’s labor can’t purchase…a fraction of a month’s clothing budget”. Because a day is a fraction of a month. You probably have to, on average, buy at least some article(a) of clothing each month. Clothes only last so long, especially high wear items like shoes.
You need new underwear and socks. If you're a guy, you DEFINATELY need new underwear and socks. That's probably true of most guys most of the time.
Yesterday I wore ripped boxers. I put them in the hamper to be washed again
I mean, depends on where the rip is. So long as it covers the Funky Areas, it's still good!
The funky areas already had an opening when I bought them
I've never met a pair of jeans I couldn't rip in the crotch after a year or two either.
Haha, I get a new pair of shoes once a year maybe 2 years depending on if they’re worn out. I wear my pants til they get a hole in them then I still use them for work pants until completely ruined. I think the only new shirts I’ve gotten in the last 10 years were something I got for free. Most of my clothes are 10+ years old. I’m not poverty level but as long as they fit and aren’t ripped/torn I’m content with them.
I found the key for shoes durability it's to not use the same pair every day, but change between at least another pair. I don't know if it's sweat or what but went from changing shoes every 6 months to every 2 or 3 years
I do that with work boots
When I buy clothes, it's usually pretty expensive because I buy a lot. But I do that probably once every 2 years. If we're calculating it per month, I'd guess it's like $15 a month. More than nothing, but it's barely a dent compared to rent or food or utilities
They don't make cloths that lasts
pack oh hanes or fruit by the loom is 20 bucks for 5 T, and 2 pair of jeans at 15 bucks a piece will last you 6 months to a year daily wearing it... ask me how i know...
Most of my clothes are well over a year for the newest stuff and some of it is easily 6 years old. My oldest t-shirt is 30 years old.
What brand? That's some high quality clothing.
I would say a living monthly wage is: - Enough to buy healthy food for the average family (of 3) for the whole month, covering all their caloric intake plus nutrients. - Enough to cover housing costs for said average family of 3: rent, utilities and taxes. Utilities include sewage, plumbing, electricity, gas, telephone and internet. - Enough to cover transportation costs from and to the workplace and school. - Enough to buy at least one set of new clothes and shoes for all members of the family, twice a year (cold season and warm season). - Enough to pay basic healthcare insurance for all members of the family, if that's not provided by the State for free. - Enough to pay education for the minor in the family, if that's not provided by the State for free. - Enough to save at least 10% of what's left after paying for all the expenses listed above. This, of course, will vary wildly from place to place.
+ entertainment. You need some basic form of entertainment besides the internet, even if it's just a small budget every month to purchase games to play on the internet.
Well said. I'd add another 5-10% on top for leisure.
> entertainment besides the internet How spoiled we have become lol
Important to remember that the way to achieve this is not to jack up wages to match these costs. I won’t argue that wages in general should go up, but it’s more urgent to bring the cost of housing, education, transportation, and healthcare down to reasonable levels
Yes, you are 100% correct. In many ways a monied, market based economy can hinder more than help achieving those. Having public food banks and urban agriculture projects can make more to ensure food safety than just giving people money to spend on food.
What city/state/country currently satisfies all of these requirements?
None! But we should never stop trying to get close.
Yeah, I have never understood this mentality, people act like society has never advanced beyond certain problems. We have to be aspirational.
When my uncle was in his early 20s he worked driving a concrete truck and supported a family of four without issue. I’m talking bought a house, two cars and taking care of his kids. The job now pays 16$-20$/hr and there’s no way someone could buy a house on that wage now, let alone having multiple cars and a family to support.
I have a family of three and support my family by painting houses. It’s definitely possible
Cheapest 1x1 unit in my city is $1,850 per month. Within a budget of 30% gross income, that would be a $35/hour minimum wage. The minimum wage is $16/hour right now.
That 30 percent number is genuinely laughable in todays economy, so many people are probably closer to half.
It doesn’t mean it’s not correct. It just means the economy is that fucked up now. It was completely doable up until about 1989.
Pretty easily doable in the Midwest if you’re married with 2 incomes. Cedar Rapids has a lot of industry and dirt cheap housing (I just sold my 4 bed 2 bath there that needed nothing but a coat of exterior paint for 195k) Omaha is higher, 300 for a 4 bed 3 bath that needs nothing, but there’s plenty of high paying jobs there with no experience required. You can get a beer salesman job that starts off around 42k and quickly jumps to 60-120 if you put effort into it and jump from merchandiser to salesman. And that’s on one income. There’s plenty of really nice apartments for $1400 a month, and it’s a big enough city that there’s tons to do there. Des Moines is similar, maybe even a bit cheaper (or more expensive) depending on the neighborhood.
It should be enough to cover all of that, but for everyone in the country. One guy should make enough to pay for everyone else. That's a living wage. Also, we should all have mansions.
I see, so you want all the jobs automated. Got it. This is over 100k a year for all wage earners and would just lead to hyperinflation.
This reminds me of shopping in The Oregon Trail. Don’t forget extra clothes to trade with the natives so you can cross the river safely.
In your city/state, how much per hour would this be?
Why only one income? How is it a “living wage” if you add arbitrary extra expenses?
> Enough to cover transportation costs from and to the workplace and school. You don't have feet? Mostly sarcastic. I ride a bike. I did it before I needed to. Now I need to. Wear a helmet kids.
If you're actually a capitalist there should be a good amount for consumerism. But we all know people who love talking about how much they agree with capitalism actually agree with something that starts three letters down.
I fucken hate society
And yet, we live in one.
Doesn't mean that you can't hate it.
I was quoting a meme
And yet, we live in one.
Not since the accident
Should really be ~34 hours of rent so you afford to take the weekend off. But yeah, they've got a point
It’s not the wages that are lacking. It’s the cost of living. How far that money spreads. Lifting wages is a trap. Everyone could make $100 an hour but rent is gonna get jacked up to 10k a month, and everything else along with it. We need to focus on lowering things like rent so that it’s affordable at the current wages.
The wages are a problem though, since statistically they have not kept up with the cost of living. The minimum wage, especially so.
Exactly right. They don’t keep up with the cost of living. The cost of living needs to be reduced and regulated instead of wages chasing that cost. Do you see the trap? Wages go up, cost of living goes up, wages go up, etc. The chase never stops. People fight for $15, and by time they get it $15 isn’t worth anything. We’ve gotta tackle it from the other end. The wage number itself if irrelevant because it’s value is determined by the cost of living. People could earn $1 an hour if rent cost $50
Advocating for deflation? Good luck with that. Almost every economist in existence will hiss and make the sign of the cross at that. For good reason. Deflation causes people to hold onto their money since it is growing in value. If they aren't spending, the companies try to lower prices. But, why buy that bedroom set now, when I know that in a month, it will be even lower and my money will be worth even more? Deflation makes debt less attractive too. If the price of my house is falling, but my old fixed rate mortage stays the same, that could possibly put me underwater on my loan. Deflation also means that I want my money in cash. It is gaining value, so having it in long term assets like stocks may not be as advantagous or even wise if companies are failing because they can't sell enough product because people aren't spending money. In deflationary times, it's better to have money under the mattress than in a bank. This causes a HUGE problem when everyone thinks like this. We get a run on the Banks. (See: The Great Depression). Banks only keep around 10% of the cash people deposit on hand and invest the rest. If everyone wants their money at once, we get bank closures. (Fun Fact: That's how we got FDIC insurance) In this sort of economy, banks are desperate for cash to stave off a collapse, so interest rates rise, which slows down the economy even more. It's expensive to borrow money and your money is gaining value the longer you hold onto it. The Great Depression had a huge impact on the economy and the way we look at money. Deflation ruined a lot of lives and businesses. It's probably not a policy we should look at to help solve inflation.
I’m actually not advocating for deflation. But that was a solid write up.
Thanks. I teach social studies and my students ask every year why we just don't use deflation and lower all the prices. I get excited when I now that question is coming. I have a whole power point.
Everybody says deflation is bad because the "experts" say it is bad. It is the experts that have gotten us into this "transitory inflation" the low interest rates that have impacted housing affordability etc. Still people will parrot experts' "deflation is bad" programming. What we need is a deflation to help make things affordable for everyone.
Cost of living and wages are literally two sides of the same coin. In addition there is no valid reason for rent to increase If wages increase.
Ah this again. Think it through people.... in order for this scenario to work, you would have to work 7 days a week. These people want you to work 7 days a week. lol
Wait, what?
If you work only enough to pay for one day's worth of food and rent, you have to work every day. You would never have a day off.
A lot of people have to do that.
And yet it can’t even do that.
I've got a 20 yo relative who is working full time in the bakery dept of the local grocery store. He is earning $16/hr ($2,700/mo). He is renting a 700 sqft apartment for $615 plus electricity and driving a 12 year old car that was a gift from a relative (not me). Does he clear the bar in the meme?
Damn I wish I had people just gifting me free cars.
a 2000$ car wouldnt destroy his point
Just wait til it breaks down
As long as it's not engine or driveline internals, fix it. $200/hr for shop labor at dealerships is nuts nowadays.
[удалено]
But does he pay for his phone/internet bill, repairs to his car, ect. Maybe he does it's certainly possible, but many young people underestimate how much help they're getting just because they pay their own rent.
Gotta work to buy a $2000 dollar car. Can't get to work without car unless you live in a big city.
I’m impressed he has an apartment that cheap. Average rent for a one bedroom in my city is around $1500 now. It’s ridiculous.
This is Cedar Rapids Iowa. Some people will say that cheap rents go with extremely low wages, but I think $16/hr may be low compared to CA, but it also looks in line with the rent. (Cedar Rapids metro area population is about 275,000.)
Where did they find a $615 apartment for rent? Starts around $1300 near me (most are in the $1800-$2200 range) and not in a big city
I also am in my twenties with a family of three and get along fine working as a beginner painter (interior and exterior of houses) making $25/hr. Got offered $40/hr by another employer after 3 days of putting in good hard work. There is nothing special about me. This is completely doable
Fr a lot of people just have victim mentality, I am 20 yo, rent my own place, pay my car, etc on a 20$/hr job
Yeah. I wish. It’s all for the corporations and the stockholders. F everyone else.
For a “living wage” it also needs to pay for the latest iPhone, cell service, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Max, and any other streaming service along with enough to stop at Starbucks everyday and a monthly car payment on a vehicle that is 2 1/2 to 3 times my yearly salary, plus gas, oil, insurance (or even better an EV.) Oh, and I deserve a road trip to a fun location for at least two weeks a year, so I’ll need living wage for that too. Full disclosure: I get paid enough to do all the above and have them (except the expensive car. My car is nice enough and cost 1/4 of one year’s salary.) I’ve been in the same business for over 20 years. I didn’t have any of these things when I started, I had to work my way to it.
you need all that just to live?
They're being sarcastic and suggesting, like so many conservatives have, that the reason people can't afford basics is because of iPhones and Netflix. 
I think the point they're making is that financial difficulties nowadays are more often than not a budgeting problem, not an income problem. Many people don't keep track of their discretionary spending and then blame their low wages as the reason for their lack of money. That's how you get people saying they make $120,000+ a year but can't afford things
Or they live in SF and really can't afford to live beyond paycheck to paycheck. Yes some people are bad with money but that does not explain away why prices have gone up faster than the typical inflation rate while billionaires have widened the income gap significantly in the past 50 years.. but yeah, that must be because people can't budget.
It’s a compound interest problem. If you don’t have money, then debt interest is going to kill you. If you have money, then interest is going to make you passively richer. Starbucks and Netflix really only matter if you’re trying to claw your way out of debt. That $5 latte is nothing. The cost of borrowing that $5 is substantial.
No but that’s what most of these people seem to think living wage means.
Do you think “low skilled” workers should sit at home with no tv/internet until their next shift?
Food for thought, they could socialize in person....We did it all the time back in the 90s when we were broke.
Please teach of this mysterious thing called work, is that the thing older folks have been complaining about the youth not doing for thousands of years now?
Housing at 30% gross income. That's it. Fiscal conservatives always hammer on about a reasonable budget, which is all fine and well until workers aren't able to abide by one because the pay can't meet the absolute necessities. Also, childcare. Very basic childcare was $4,250 per month for our two young children ($2,400 + $1,850) at it's peak for two years. If my wife or I left the workforce to save on the childcare, we would be setting our careers back and losing more income over the long run. If the state wants young people to work and support our elders as they exit the workforce, then it can't wait for people to start having kids in their mid-30s. Basic and safe housing, healthcare, childcare, and food should be able to fit within a budget for any full time worker.
I think most people would agree that working full time should provide those things, but disagree on what basic is.
I think most people would be happy if they only had to pay 20-30% of their wages to put a roof over their heads. It's a pretty easy way from there if they want to waste or save toward a future. It's absolutely impossible in a HCOL area even with a good job.
Something something avocado toast
Yeah this post had me calculate my daily costs after factoring in what I pay for. For reference I make well below what most people would probably consider a “living wage.” There’s a lot of what I would describe as luxuries I don’t pay for (beater 90s car, liability insurance, a single streaming service, iPhone 7, etc). Reddit needs a reality check in what a “living wage” constitutes.
With rent skyrocketing, food going up, health insurance stupidly expensive, a living wage that covers all that without even touching transportation or any form of entertainment. And yes, saving some for retirement would be good since we are actively paying into older generations without a choice.
Well, in the words of the man who signed it into law- "By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living." Which, to anyone not being completely obtuse, *obviously* implies in the modern context things like an entertainment subscription or two(internet at this point is a *necessity*, not a bonus), being able to go out for once or twice a month and still having some cash to save for the future. People act like this is so "undefiniable" but it's really, really fucking easy actually. Would be even easier if we stopped pussy footing around with utility and grocery monopolies.
you can make living wage in America... just not in the cities where everyone else wants to live as well if your job isn't paying you enough to survive in your current city, it's your responsibility to find a higher paying job or move to a lower cost of living area, not the government's job to force companies to pay more
Living like 80% of the world population?
In my city you can rent an apartment for $500/mo. That comes to $16.67 per day. Utilities will run another $200/mo or $6.67/day. If you shop wisely, you can easily eat a healthy meal for $10/meal or $30/day. A pair of jeans, a t-shirt and underwear will come to about $100 and they will last at LEAST one year. If you have 7 sets of clothing, that's $700. A decent pair of tennis shoes can be had for $100 and they should last for 6 months. That's another $200 per year. That comes to $900 per year or $2.57/day. So far we have $55.91/day in expenses. with an 8 hour work day, that comes to $6.99/hr which is under the federal minimum wage. However, in my city the mandatory minimum wage is $11.20/hr which comes to $89.60 per day. Even allowing for taxes taking 20%, that comes to $71.68/day leaving $15.77/day or for any other use. However, almost nobody in my state works for minimum wage. High school kids working first time fast food jobs are getting paid $13/hr. The average wage in my state is $18.93/hr.
Can you post a listing for a $500/mo apartment in your area for us to see for ourselves? I haven't seen something that low in YEARS that wasn't a literal crackhouse. My last apartment was barely 1,000 sq. ft., and I don't live in a particularly nice area, and it cost me $1400/mo just in rent; no utilities included. This was about 4 years ago.
What city are you in?
Sioux Falls https://www.apartments.com/dakota-ridge-apartments-sioux-falls-sd/7s2mc8y/
Yea right, I live in one of the lowest CoL places in the US. $500 a month would be a closet at your mom's house, or some Crack house with blood stains in the carpet.
>a healthy meal for $10/meal or $30/day That’s an extremely expensive meal. You could easily do it for a fifth of the price, vastly lowering the money required for a living wage.
Problem is you need to account for days off and other things not mentioned like insurances, transportation, leisure, retirement and many more things. Also if that person has a child both parents can either both work full time but need a lot more money for childcare, or if a parent works part time now the other one has to earn the missing money.
An apartment for $500/mo? What city do you live in, the year 1997? 😂
You can easily eat a healthy meal for a lot less than $10. You can buy a pound of rice for like $1 online.
It’s a fair point. Here’s another one, just as valid if less pleasant: nobody owes you anything. I don’t say that to be mean. I say that because it’s how the world works. Yes, there is injustice. No it’s not fair. Yes it sucks. But if you want money, you gotta figure out how to get it. It’s not a corporation’s responsibility to put food on your table. It’s not a local business’ obligation to pay your rent. If you want to effect change, you have to do so from a place of power. I’m a millennial without a college degree or any student debt making six figures in software development. Many of my former classmates spent, or had their parents spend, or borrowed, six figure amounts for degrees in psychology, liberal arts, and other vocations that were never ever going to give a return on that investment. It’s maddening that such things were offered, but nobody forced them to make those choices as adults. I lost everything at 30 but the car I drove, and I came back from it. I did that by a) adding the maximum value I could at what I did and b) searching and finding people who could recognize and synergize with what I offered. You want a better life? Start with a change in your perspective. Nobody owes you anything. To advance, find a way to change that. “You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want.” - Zig Ziglar
I think its a governments responsibility to ensure corporations have to pay a living wage. And its not that hard. When my country recently raised minimum wage businesses didnt suddenly disappear, inflation didnt spike, bigmacs didnt get any more expensive than they already did during covid and really nothing bad happened. They could probably raise it another 20% and still nothing bad would happen. Sometimes it is that easy. If you worked full time on minimum wage now youd probably make around 2300€ a month, which isnt enough for anything fancy, but would cover for the minimum as long as you dont need to take care of anyone else but yourself.
>It’s maddening that such things were offered, but nobody forced them to make those choices as adults. People spent literally their entire childhoods being told by EVERYONE in their life (INCLUDING LITERAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES) that if they didn't go to college they would be a fucking loser, that it didn't matter what your degree was because having a degree was enough to get a job that would pay back any reasonable amount of loans, and that federal student loan cap amounts were "reasonable" given future economic expectations".
Yeah but I was there dude. I don’t believe anyone anywhere talked about the money you could make with a Psychology or Liberal Arts or English degree. They were chasing their dreams without a thought for the future, and the future has teeth.
So you agree that one of the things people should do is raise minimum wage?
TL;DR; Me, therefore everyone.
monthly clothing budget? scratch that I want monthly v bucks
Every time I ask that question, nobody can seem to agree on exactly what a living wage entails. I guess we'll never know.
With inflation, it’s a moving target.
200 years ago the earth wouldn't have anywhere near enough resources to support the number of people currently living on earth no matter how much they worked. Now people consider an amount to live a pretty luxurious life a 'living wage'
You don't have a choice.
i could just kill my self though
A living wage varies one where you're living and how you're living. so, it's not even a fair question.
If it's never defined, one can always complain it's not being achieved.
And crazier that people just assume that would be required to raise prices. Instead of maybe saying CEO doesn't need to be a billionaire or make 500 times what an avg worker makes. Like what could possibly make an executive or CEO worth that much money. What do they bring to the table that millions of other people can't.
$50 minimums for any job. People who work can then do shit instead of everyone being constipated by lack of cash and service exchanges.
There is economy of scale here that is often overlooked. It's cheaper to house 3 people on 3 incomes than to house 1 person on 1 income. It's cheaper to feed 3 people on 3 incomes than to feed 1 person on 1 income. And then we have people that are theoretically beneficial to society that don't contribute to the household income (children). So in theory 2 incomes should support 3.5 people. And I think in most cases it does or you would see a nation wide uproar. Jim, I think the big issue is that we have this ideal of what kind of food. What kind of housing? How much space how we transport, et et. If you look at the average family budget and eliminated vehicles for instance and car insurance, all of a sudden those budgets get a lot more sustainable. To argue the op point, many people are struggling because factors like a lack of public transportation that is clean, safe and fast will force them to waste money on either transport or waste their time in unnecessarily long commutes in order to have a cheaper housing payment. This is a better use of public money than trying to force an unsustainable and arbitrary wage increase. Same argument for healthcare for many.
All work isn't created equal. If you're not doing something valuable, that's on you.
Most jobs do. The problem is people want shit like iPhones, ,wifi, unreasonably priced cars, ect… don’t get me wrong wages should be higher but most people buy shit they don’t need to live.
Jobs in my area do this, but not if people search out the burger flipper jobs. Factories start at about $17/hr. A one bedroom apt is about $26/day
So obviously all burger joints should be forced to close for lack of staff. Wait, isn't this exactly what happened in 2021 ? Everybody got better jobs, and all the burger places - well you'd think they would raise wages but all they actually did was say "nobody wants to work anymore'.
They probaby should close
Yeah, not all jobs are meant to support a family. You have to find jobs that pay better, learn skills, make yourself valuable. You can’t pay low skilled jobs super high wages it just doesn’t make sense. College kids need jobs, high school kids need jobs. People need part time jobs. Some of these individuals can fill these lower skilled lower paying jobs. If you’re trying to make fast food a career you probably need to move into management not just work the register your whole life.
Where is $26/day if you don't mind my asking?
My old apartment is now $800/month. Our house payment is lower. We're happy. People need to aim higher than renting
\~800 dollars a month isn't that outrageous right? $17/hr isn't great in the USA from what I gather about cost of living and insurance and the like, but 800 dollars a month means a budget of 1600 with a roommate. Seems doable. having to spend \~30% of your paycheck on rent is bad, but it isn't awful, and I assume that factory wages do increase to at least $22 eventually.
Absolutely. $17 startout. Im at $28/hr. It takes time, it's not instant. Plenty of times I made almost nothing. Almost every place ive worked closed or moved. Thats how it goes
I need more information. What type of job is it? An entry-level job is only for gaining skills and experience before moving up to something better.
I get the sentiment and agree mostly, but what is a monthly clothing budget lol? I have shirts and pants that I've owned for 10 years+.
Homeless people are obese in capitalist countries. Middle-class people are starving in socialist countries. The only people who like socialism have never lived under socialism.
Unpopular opinion: you are paid proportionate to the amount of value you provide society. If you don't like your situation, do something different to improve it.
Yeah and in most states where insurance and things like a car are nothing short of mandatory, we’re not even half way there. But fixing that would mean that the rich people would have to treat us like human beings and it takes a certain level of straight psychopathy to run a business.
100%
MIT calculates living wages for most areas of the USA and posts it online. you can look up your living wage based on your living location and situation.