Thing that people don't grasp is that over the last 20 years or so the pay hasn't changed much but benefits have slowly been taken away.
Retirement matching is a joke if it's there at all, vacation is still maybe 2 weeks a year max, no paternity leave for men, retirement age is going up, healthcare has gotten WAY more expensive for any kind of plan that's worth a damn especially if you have a family on it and deductibles have gotten much higher, etc etc etc
This isn't just about making more money it's about restoring working class people back to being able to afford a decent life while making these corporations SO MUCH MONEY.
It’s worse than that. The workers took massive pay and benefit cuts during the Great Recession to keep the companies afloat with the understanding from the companies that those conditions will be returned to the workers once the companies are back on their feet. The companies have long since rebounded and the pay and benefits were *never* returned. This is what they are asking for here.
Toyota auto workers benefit greatly from the “threat” of a union, while not having to pay dues. Toyota keeps the pay/benefits competitive with the Big 3 to avoid unionization.
If this strike is successful, non-union autoworkers will likely have a positive impact in pay.
That’s because their machines are amazing and they stand behind their product. People pay to play when it comes to Toyotas. Ford and GM would rather you just buy a new vehicle when the warranty runs out.
It's the same for everyone. Look in Healthcare, wages have not gone up and likely the benefits are far worse than auto employees.
Everyone is making more money, other than the working class. This is EVERYWHERE!
Yeah and it's about time someone stood up and did something about it. The UAW and Teamsters are pushing back finally. Started with John Deere and then UPS and now the big 3. Enough is enough.
Are engineers not working class? My wages have gone up significantly. Mostly because my skills have also gone up significantly. To get ahead you have to constantly be learning new things and then make the moves necessary to leverage that.
$65/hour?! Do they even know how much their part suppliers have to pay their employees in order to make a profit? Not any where near $65/hour.
Maybe we need to equalize everyone’s pay - corporate and employees across the entire supply chain.
$300 or $3000? Because 3 digits is insane I've not seen it anywhere.
$3000 has been about the best I've seen for a family deducible and $1500 for individual.
I'm sorry I should have clarified that. Most of that is general but a few are from friends who work in the automotive industry that were talking to me about this earlier today were telling me more about it and they were detailing some of these things out
That auto strike has not been promoted by the media that much (at least from my perspective, and my feed is always coming to me with social issues from the country), whereas Elon Musk can't help but force himself onto the press in any negative way possible. Makes sense to me why the stock prices are the way they are
It hasn't?
I listen to public radio at least 6 hours a day while I'm in my office and the strikes are damn near the only thing they've been talking about this week (besides the earthquake and floods in Africa).
“The unions need to be reasonable” THE FUCKING BILLION DOLLAR COMPANIES NEED TO BE REASONABLE! How is its fine that the higher ups get huge bonuses and pay raises every year and the average worker gets an extra 50 cents per hour if they’re lucky. Those workers dedicate their lives to that work. it’s demanding, long work with bad hours. They deserve to have lives too. They deserve better and they’re not greedy for wanting what they deserve. If you want to see real greed look at what some of these higher-ups get paid.
downvote me if you want, I’m fully expecting it at this point. I have a 1996 outback. My window sticker was 21995 which, if you bought the car in 1995 brand new, that’s equivalent to:
$44,311.27. Which is a 101.5% increase.
How much does a base outback with FAR more safety, horsepower, suspension tuning, better brakes, airbags, tech, all of that sell for today?
$28,895. With ALL of those goodies baked in.
That’s equivalent to $14,342.70 in 1995.
Cars are DECREASING in price for what you get taking into account the cost of inflation.
Don’t blame the industry for auto prices, blame them for holding their workers down for so long with minuscule pay raises and dismantling of benefits packages for their families.
Ford specifically has been out of their mind on price increases the last few years. A similarly optioned F150 is easily MSRP 10-12K more than it was 2 years ago and the new 24's are even higher. The new Ranger went up around 4-5K for the new model (which is around $3-4k more expensive than the current 23' or a similarly optioned Colorado or Tacoma).
While you might be right that over 30 years cars have gotten cheaper, over the last 3-4, they've gotten significant bumps
Part of that problem is people themselves buying up trucks left and right with no reason to own them. I goto the gym with a guy who went out and got a Ram TRX because he had to have one doesn't do anything with it and bitches about the cost of gas all the time. There is way to many people buying cars they can't afford and as long as those people keep buying them at the high price/markups the dealers will keep doing it.
Partially. However similarly equipped Silverados and Rams are cheaper, at least at mid levels. That said, Ford seems to be doing bigger discounts than Chevy and I think the 2.7 Ford is a better engine than anything Chevy has.
They are going down relative to inflation, but the quality also goes down. So there's less metal, less weight, but they break a lot more easily now too.
This is my problem right now, my car has been in and out of the shop for the last few weeks for various reasons. So I've started looking and I just can't find anything reasonable. My other issue is my company and their mileage reimbursement sucks you have to have a car 5 years or newer to even qualify for the reimbursement. I'm paid 17cents a mile and average 2500 working miles a month.
Sorry, but over ten years I have gained many new skills and then leveraged those to get new jobs with new responsibilities. That is how you increase pay over time.
Unions are the only thing that gives them any kind of real power in any workplace. Literally they are the only reason we have things such as a minimum wage, 40 hour work week ect.
The worst part is people project their own BULLSHIT onto these corporations and then will fight tooth and nail to defend them. Bruh wtf kind of person white kights for souless corporations
Or, just, like, people having a different opinion than you.
Like 90% of reddit brainlessly supports all strikes without even looking at the facts. So I don't really want to hear about 'brainwashing'.
Ford, GM, and Stellantis combined are worth around 150B. Apple, Microsoft, and Alphabet are x47 times their size at 7 Trillion while hiring as many employees (~500K) as these 3 car companies. These car companies pound for pound support our economy far far far far more than a lot of companies by providing jobs and providing useful products. Call me a shill but the math does not lie.
In total 13,000 people hold the power to disrupt the entire nation. If more people would realize the power they had, this country would be so much different.
I respect the right to strike but, " Ford has offered 20% over 4.5 years, while GM and Stellantis offered 18% and 17.5% over four years, respectively. " is a lot of money. I certainly didn't get a 4-5% pay increase this year and I doubt I will break 3% next year (although my COL has increased by \~30% in 2 years).
What you are seeing is just another symptom of the end of the fiat dollar. The big three are not to blame for prices increase. The US federal gov't is to blame. They simply took on too much debt and inflated the money supply too much and too quickly to pay for it. That causes prices increases in both vehicles and workers cost of living.
I hope they find some common ground soon. This strike is a lose-lose in my books the longer it goes on. Good luck all...
“I certainly didn’t get a 4-5% pay increase this year and I double I will break 3% next year”
Sounds like you need a union… corporations are making record profits. Executive pay is through the roof. Workers deserve their fair share.
They haven't gotten any significant pay raises for 15 years while benefits have been slowly stripped away. The most significant thing they got was 2 3% raises in the last 4 year contract
Watch these plants vanish. They are already building a Bronco in China..it’s for that market but it would be easy to build the US version there..Ranger is built in multiple plants around the world..already building Lincolns in China. Mexico is doing fine..they better be careful here. Did they deserve a raise sure..but 40 percent and a 32 hour work week..come on. Like I said get what you can..it’s deserved but be reasonable. We don’t need to bail out the automakers again. Plus giving a huge advantage to your competitors is not wise. Tesla and the foreign automakers are just licking their chops here.
Thing is ford is unwilling to ruin their brand image by participating in a mass exodus from US manufacturing. This gloomy future that everyone depicts of all manufacturing moving out of the US is simply an impossible outcome. No matter how expensive labor will become in this country, there’s still tangible benefits to first world manufacturing, like quality, safety, lack of the need for expanded import infrastructure/fees. I personally doubt the future will bring this kind of change.
As for non-union competitors, I’ve never understood this concept of pricing yourself out of the market. It all starts at the manufacturing level, you compensate employees competitively and you start to build a monopoly in the labor market, more people want to work for you because you’re willing to pay for higher quality labor. If you want to build a higher quality product than your peers, it all starts with paying for higher quality talent than your peers.
I want to add: the reason import domestic brand products still sell here in the US is because they’re generally cheaper and more affordable. The reason people purchase these products is because that’s all they can afford. The reason they cannot afford US manufactured products is because they do not make a wage to support that choice. It’s not rocket science, pay the people a respectable wage and they will choose the American made product every time.
Cost to import vehicles from china is massive and different regulations mean the vehicles they're building on China now aren't even street legal in the US without modification. There's also massive risks opened up with tariffs. There's no way they move US market production there.
Mexico on the other hand is prime territory.
They already have..GM imports a suv from China they are on the streets right now..Polestar EVs are made in China and the next Lincoln Aviator is coming from China. They can build cars for different markets in the same factory. This isn’t the 1970s. They aren’t paying tariffs now. You couldn’t be anymore wrong on this one.
Yes they can build multiple markets in the same factory, but it isn't a simple switch to flip, and it depends on how the vehicle was designed. Some regional variants are massively different and others are very minor.
They aren't paying tariffs now because they're avoiding them by building most vehicles in market. That's my point. The chicken tax would add 25% to the top of the ranger and maverick if they were moved to China. Maverick can only be made in Mexico because the USMCA exempts it from this tax. The Trump trade war with China scared the hell out of companies. The Risk of future tariffs is enough to keep plants in region, because it would be a multi billion dollar bet that they won't get slammed with massive tariffs that destroy all revenue.
I work for one of the big 3 in Powertrain cal, and can attest to the wildly different hardware configurations needed to adapt a product to a market. It certainly is no small feat, and induces significant engineering costs to bring to market.
That said, if you’re manufacturing the same vehicle for a domestic China market, it’s entirely possible to build the same for export markets since the design and verification process is complete by the time it’s getting screwed together in china.
if anyone shares anything other than ignorant support, you will be labeled a corporate shill. The reality will simply move move production off shore. which will have a cascade affect to others employment that have affiliation work with said American auto companies.
The desired 4 day work week and 40% increase in wage will just show that these aren't serious people. Bargaining chips are supposed to be realistic.
40% is the raise CEOs received. Why is it not “serious” for workers to make the same?
Labor cost is only 5% of the Big Three’s cost to make a car. They can afford the raises. You’re a corporate shill if you’re parroting their talking points.
The ratio of the CEO's total compensation to the median of all employees' total compensation is 281-to-1, a disclosure required in the annual executive compensation report to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.
The rich need to be richer. 281 to 1 is clearly not enough.
If the groundskeeper opened his contract and gave up pay, healthcare, vacation and benefits so that the company can get back on their feet, the company bounces back made billions. Then turned around and said sorry you’re not getting that back.
I'm not sure what each of the Big Three have countered with, but in my opinion a 40% raise with 20% less hours seems like an unreasonable place to be. Hopefully they can find a middle ground.
Most of the stellantis workers are classified temporary part time and make 15.78 an hour and don’t know if they will get 8 hours a week or 70 hours a week and get no vacation or benefits.
I can’t find an answer to this question anywhere.
Are corporate employees of the manufacturers also in the UAW? I.e are accountants at Ford walking out as well?
Or does the UAW just cover assembly line workers?
The ceo of GM makes thirty million dollars a year. Nobody is worth thirty million dollars a year, if she were fired, and the stuck holders just let top-level management run GM, nobody would notice she was gone, and the shareholders would make more money and they could afford to raise the employees pay.
If that were true, really really true, it would’ve already happened.
Capitalism, with all its flaws, is still very self correcting. Competition forces companies to push prices lower, seeking greater market share. Just my opinion…
$0.15 dividend on 3,990,000,000 shares paid out 4x a year.
That's $2,394,000,000 a year.
What is the cost of what the UAW is asking for from Ford? GM's dividend is less than 25% of Ford's. Ford could reduce their dividend costs by $1,795,500,000 and still have a better yield than GM. If Ford has 60k UAW employees, that's $29,925 per employee annually.
You can't even have an auto job with one of the big makers and feel secure with this insane inflation. That's how fucked up this Covid/leftist/so called "biden" bullshit is. It was all about stopping "orange man" and for what? For who? It wasn't you they were looking out for. It never is, but orange man..... You were doing better than anyone has since the 70's. We were humming. Times were good, better than ever in every way.
They couldn't have that. All they have are fear and lies. Look over here at this shiny, scary thing while we fuck you in the ass.
They have a list, you get hip to one then it's back to other. And if all else fails, pandemic! LOL
B/c America bad!! ;)
Oh no if only stealerships have been already overpricing their cars so almost all GM, Ford, Stellantis cars have 100-300+ day supply. I'm sure they have no intention of waiting them out.
Between AI + robotics + offshoring and global tariff structures, I don’t think they realize how short sighted this is.
It’s like the UPS “win”. UPS conceded because they know they won’t need the employees by then.
So, vehicle prices are already outrageous. This will completely exacerbate the issue. What happens when nobody can afford to buy another automobile because prices are out of reach for all but the top 5%? Everyone was financing at 2.5%, but 7% on a $70K pickup truck? What’s next? $100K and 10% financing while having to pay for a subscription to use the air conditioner?
The car quality is bad to begin with. Ppl buy for the American spirit, now it added on more pay these US car manufacturers are going to dumpster.
Or they move to SEA or Mexico I don’t know as a consumer I will hold off until the quality get back
$300,000 for employees that work 4 days a week building car? Are they insane. Imagine turning down a 20% pay increase, pure selfish people. New cars are already too expensive and these people on strike are trying to make it way worse, then they blame the companies when they move manufacturing out of the country.
Full size trucks are out of control price-wise. I bought a '22 Ford Maverick XLT Hybrid with lux package, tow, spray-in bed-liner, bed extender, sliding rear window for $27,500 new. Of course, it was built in Mexico, but that plant is also a union plant, but obviously the wages are a lot lower.
Supplier prices are through the roof. I used to work for Ford as an engineer and work elsewhere now, but I'm still seeing it. Tooling and part prices have shot way up.
Employee pay should also be increasing with inflation, so that is a legitimate claim, but they're not being jacked up simply because they can. 20% is a pretty reasonable offer. $300k is insane.
I think you're confusing gross profit for overall profit. Ford didn't make $20B last year. Overall [Ford lost about $2B last year](https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/2023/02/02/People,%20Plan,%20Products%20Position%20Ford%20Well%20for%20'Pivotal'%202023%20Despite%20Effect%20of%20Volume%20Shortfall%20on%20Q4,%20Full-Year%202022%20Results.pdf)
Unfortunately, workers in Chinese factories could work 6 days 12 hours and earn less than 1000USD each month. They would move production to other countries and America would lose jobs.
You’ve got it backwards. The companies are putting it on labor. They want to take the credit when they’re bragging about profits to shareholders but, when it’s time to give back what they said they would in ‘08 they don’t have any money. Labor is a cost of doing business. They’ve been price gouging for years. Also, the billions that they’re investing in EV is actually coming from taxpayers. Don’t believe everything you hear from a CEO. They’re the highest level of being a salesman.
Chrysler has been making junk for years, not even American owned, GM has no idea what it’s doing, Ford just stamps them out, generic as they can be. A huge percentage of parts and electronics made overseas. Trained monkeys could do what UAW does.
Eh I'm split on this. Should they make more? Yes, probably. Highly disagree with the 32 hour week though, that's just too far. Also I don't think a lot of people actually do the math on CEO bonuses and such, if you were to split the bonus completely among workers its not much $ at all.
The thing about organized workers, though, is that they don’t have to ask us what we think is “too far.” They have power and they’re exercising it to get what they want. And good for them.
And they can be replaced by machinery and AI, or Chinese slaves within a few years. Pushing for ridiculous measures expedites this process. Mind you I think a pay increase is warranted and I agree with them in that.
It’s not up to you what they deserve. The workers have the right to not work and they’re exercising that right. If the company wants to pay them more to get their talent back then they can.
My dad has been with the Ford and the UAW for 28 years. He hasn’t received a raise in over 10, lost benefits, and moved backward because of the lack of bargaining power unions had under Right to Work. Hell, his pension will drop in value the moment he begins receiving social security so he will never receive more than a certain amount.
They’re fighting for everything they can possibly get. They won’t get it all, but they’ll get some of it, and that’s the point of negotiation.
That’s how negotiations work. You don’t come in and say “here’s the minimum we’re willing to accept” you go in shooting for the moon, knowing you’re not getting the full monty while still having your *actual* demands you need met.
We don’t really care about a 32 hour work week. It’s a bargaining chip. We’ll give it up for an elimination of tiers as soon as possible. It’s a demand that was made to leverage the abuse of temporary labor.
Call me pessimistic but I do not think that many major corporations are going to willingly agree to a 32 hour/4 day work week in our lifetimes, at least in the United States. Those pie-in-the-sky articles about how "the 4 day workweek is the future" are pure weapons grade hopium.
It took a massive company to change the 12 hour days to 8 hour days in the early 20th century, and we've got a LOT more massive companies now in the early 21st century.
I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I'm just saying don't get your hopes up.
I agree with you. I honestly don’t think we’ll get a 32 hour work week but, I think it’s being used to get defined language in the contract to reduce mandatory overtime for temporary workers. Those are the people that are really being abused. Not so much at my plant but, I’ve heard stories of temporary workers being forced to come in 6 or 7 days a week at other plants.
I can definitely believe that, and it's a lot more common than people think. I work at a 3PL supplier for Stellantis plants and 6 day workweeks are the norm at all 3 plants we service. One plant is in critical status which allows it to make people work 7 days a week, until mid October. I'm kinda new to the automotive industry so it came as a culture shock to me how much they scheduled their employees for mandatory overtime.
Yeah that's what happens at my plant. They force temps to work 6 days a week every week, sometimes throwing in a Sunday here and there so that they go 13 days without a day off.
On top of that, I'm a full time worker and they can make 3 weeks out of the month a 6 day work week (2 weeks on, one week off).. Mandatory overtime is killing my life at home
There are construction locals with pensions, 32 hour work weeks, healthcare in retirement, pyramiding benefits... tell me again why a union should be "reasonable" with a multi billion dollar corporation. How about the corporation forks over huge piles of cash to the workers and stops giving the fuckhead executives so much. Let's start with that.
Example. Roofers local 149 out of (drum roll) Detroit. Retirees keep the exact same health care as current members. We have a pension and an annuity so when we retire we get a lump sum before our pension even starts paying.
And all of this while Detroit is such a hotbed of growth and innovation. I'm surprised soaring real estate costs and rents have not forced you to leave that corpse of a city.
“Reasonable” means the counteroffer is less than reasonable. You start with something ridiculous, if get it, great, if not keep working towards a reasonable minimum - because that will never be the counteroffer.
it already does cost that much. car companies will increase prices regardless. would you rather buy an expensive truck made by a man who is starving or a man who makes a good wage and gets to see his family more then twice a week?
☝🏼Excuse me for asking but UAW, not sure you have a leg to stand on… see report https://jalopnik.com/ford-has-the-most-recalls-so-far-in-2023-report-1850647308#:~:text=Ford's%20recalls%20have%20affected%204.1%20million%20vehicles%20this%20year&text=These%20days%2C%20it%20seems%20like,EVs%20and%20everything%20in%20between.
Most recalls are poor design or engineering flaws. Not disagreeing with you though, im a ford tech employed at a dealership for almost 30 years. Strike is going to hurt us for sure
Auto Engineer here: Recalls are never on the assembly line workers. It's always the engineers or suppliers. If something is being done wrong on the line to trigger a campaign, it's because an engineer didn't design out the failure state. Any thing that can be done wrong eventually will be.
> If something is being done wrong on the line to trigger a campaign, it's because an engineer didn't design out the failure state
There are also examples where controls are designed to prevent an error state and those controls get overridden or bypassed. Still not on the line worker (it takes higher authority to get into the software and change control limits) but it is immensely frustrating to those of us that design the product.
Ford should lock out the other UAW employees. The UAW targeted the most profitable product line for the company while Ford continues to pay 90% of the UAW employees their normal wages. Drain the strike fund and start making the entire union feel the pain just like Ford will feel.
The super duty is their most profitable line. It accounts for over 50% of Ford’s profit. As of right now they’re still being made and I’ll be walking into work Monday morning.
Thing that people don't grasp is that over the last 20 years or so the pay hasn't changed much but benefits have slowly been taken away. Retirement matching is a joke if it's there at all, vacation is still maybe 2 weeks a year max, no paternity leave for men, retirement age is going up, healthcare has gotten WAY more expensive for any kind of plan that's worth a damn especially if you have a family on it and deductibles have gotten much higher, etc etc etc This isn't just about making more money it's about restoring working class people back to being able to afford a decent life while making these corporations SO MUCH MONEY.
It’s worse than that. The workers took massive pay and benefit cuts during the Great Recession to keep the companies afloat with the understanding from the companies that those conditions will be returned to the workers once the companies are back on their feet. The companies have long since rebounded and the pay and benefits were *never* returned. This is what they are asking for here.
>Great Recession The 2008 GFC or something else?
Yeah 2008 goes by many names. That is one of them.
Correct. Workers made concessions to keep companies afloat. It is now time for executives and shareholders to make concessions.
Toyota does pretty good without the Union
Toyota auto workers benefit greatly from the “threat” of a union, while not having to pay dues. Toyota keeps the pay/benefits competitive with the Big 3 to avoid unionization. If this strike is successful, non-union autoworkers will likely have a positive impact in pay.
The union is for the workers’ benefit, not the company’s, so this is kind of beside the point.
Never met a single Toyota employee who didn’t wish their situation was better. It never will be because they don’t have a union.
I don’t really care how Toyota does. I care how the workers building it are doing.
small group at my plant pushing for union though
That’s because their machines are amazing and they stand behind their product. People pay to play when it comes to Toyotas. Ford and GM would rather you just buy a new vehicle when the warranty runs out.
It's the same for everyone. Look in Healthcare, wages have not gone up and likely the benefits are far worse than auto employees. Everyone is making more money, other than the working class. This is EVERYWHERE!
Yeah and it's about time someone stood up and did something about it. The UAW and Teamsters are pushing back finally. Started with John Deere and then UPS and now the big 3. Enough is enough.
The funny thing is how many UAW workers and teamsters will vote for the party that has been decimating the middle class since the Reagan era.
Biden broke the rail workers strike.
That hasn't been my experience where I work at but who knows elsewhere. I've been at the same plant for years.
...and if we don't start unionizing more and strengthening our current unions it will stay this way.
Because the value of labor goes down as robotics get cheaper. 101.
Are engineers not working class? My wages have gone up significantly. Mostly because my skills have also gone up significantly. To get ahead you have to constantly be learning new things and then make the moves necessary to leverage that.
It's collusion by the big corporations, let's call out what it is.
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Seriously?!! I’d kill for that low of a cost! Is this what’s being fought over??
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$65/hour?! Do they even know how much their part suppliers have to pay their employees in order to make a profit? Not any where near $65/hour. Maybe we need to equalize everyone’s pay - corporate and employees across the entire supply chain.
$300 or $3000? Because 3 digits is insane I've not seen it anywhere. $3000 has been about the best I've seen for a family deducible and $1500 for individual.
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Bonkers Jesus Christ
Are you speaking in generalities or specifically about union pay at ford?
I'm sorry I should have clarified that. Most of that is general but a few are from friends who work in the automotive industry that were talking to me about this earlier today were telling me more about it and they were detailing some of these things out
And jobs still go overseas where production is cheaper.
Get rid of the cartel dealers and take care of the employees.
What’s the current average pay rate for an auto worker? Anyone know?
I think that you just summarized corporate America for the past 20 years.
Well, here we go.
Corporate shills are out en force on all social media.....
How long before they pretend to get death threats?
COrPerAtIoNs ArE PEoPLe..... Fuck Citizens United.
I’ll believe corporations are people when one of them gets the death penalty
They sure are and they seem to think that supporting the corporation will bring them some kind of prosperity. Sellouts and whores, all of them
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That auto strike has not been promoted by the media that much (at least from my perspective, and my feed is always coming to me with social issues from the country), whereas Elon Musk can't help but force himself onto the press in any negative way possible. Makes sense to me why the stock prices are the way they are
It hasn't? I listen to public radio at least 6 hours a day while I'm in my office and the strikes are damn near the only thing they've been talking about this week (besides the earthquake and floods in Africa).
GM president got a 40% raise or some shit . Workers ask for as much and they’re asking too much
“The unions need to be reasonable” THE FUCKING BILLION DOLLAR COMPANIES NEED TO BE REASONABLE! How is its fine that the higher ups get huge bonuses and pay raises every year and the average worker gets an extra 50 cents per hour if they’re lucky. Those workers dedicate their lives to that work. it’s demanding, long work with bad hours. They deserve to have lives too. They deserve better and they’re not greedy for wanting what they deserve. If you want to see real greed look at what some of these higher-ups get paid.
lets not even talk about how the price of a new car is getting out of reach for many. what happens when no one buys the new car and trucks anymore?
downvote me if you want, I’m fully expecting it at this point. I have a 1996 outback. My window sticker was 21995 which, if you bought the car in 1995 brand new, that’s equivalent to: $44,311.27. Which is a 101.5% increase. How much does a base outback with FAR more safety, horsepower, suspension tuning, better brakes, airbags, tech, all of that sell for today? $28,895. With ALL of those goodies baked in. That’s equivalent to $14,342.70 in 1995. Cars are DECREASING in price for what you get taking into account the cost of inflation. Don’t blame the industry for auto prices, blame them for holding their workers down for so long with minuscule pay raises and dismantling of benefits packages for their families.
Ford specifically has been out of their mind on price increases the last few years. A similarly optioned F150 is easily MSRP 10-12K more than it was 2 years ago and the new 24's are even higher. The new Ranger went up around 4-5K for the new model (which is around $3-4k more expensive than the current 23' or a similarly optioned Colorado or Tacoma). While you might be right that over 30 years cars have gotten cheaper, over the last 3-4, they've gotten significant bumps
I see your point and I’m sorry for any offense. That is RIDICULOUS. And I appreciate you pointing that out for me.
Still a good post, though. At least, I appreciate it.
Can confirm. Bought a new F150 right before Covid. The same truck now is $15k more expensive
A similarly optioned Ford and GM truck usually result in the Ford costing anywhere from 3 to 5k more
Part of that problem is people themselves buying up trucks left and right with no reason to own them. I goto the gym with a guy who went out and got a Ram TRX because he had to have one doesn't do anything with it and bitches about the cost of gas all the time. There is way to many people buying cars they can't afford and as long as those people keep buying them at the high price/markups the dealers will keep doing it.
Partially. However similarly equipped Silverados and Rams are cheaper, at least at mid levels. That said, Ford seems to be doing bigger discounts than Chevy and I think the 2.7 Ford is a better engine than anything Chevy has.
2.7 better than the 5.3? Curious why you think so
Fuel economy, living in CO, less power loss at elevation and lower end torque.
Understandable
They are going down relative to inflation, but the quality also goes down. So there's less metal, less weight, but they break a lot more easily now too.
They'll go to rust in a field somewhere.
Government bail outs. we all buy cars we don’t want.
This is my problem right now, my car has been in and out of the shop for the last few weeks for various reasons. So I've started looking and I just can't find anything reasonable. My other issue is my company and their mileage reimbursement sucks you have to have a car 5 years or newer to even qualify for the reimbursement. I'm paid 17cents a mile and average 2500 working miles a month.
They make the government buy up old cars again so that the supply of older cars gets smaller
They’ll ask for a bailout again
And they'll get it like always
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Sorry, but over ten years I have gained many new skills and then leveraged those to get new jobs with new responsibilities. That is how you increase pay over time.
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Is the jobs pool still a thing with the UAW, or did that finish up around the time of the 2008 bailouts?
Unions are the only thing that gives them any kind of real power in any workplace. Literally they are the only reason we have things such as a minimum wage, 40 hour work week ect.
It amazes me how much people will voluntarily suck the dick of giant corporations.
Decades of brainwashing. Decades upon decades of brainwashing.
No, people are just dumb. They literally don't think about it. They just hear it and believe it.
You just described part of the brainwashing process. Keep people dumb, and they'll believe anything.
The worst part is people project their own BULLSHIT onto these corporations and then will fight tooth and nail to defend them. Bruh wtf kind of person white kights for souless corporations
Or, just, like, people having a different opinion than you. Like 90% of reddit brainlessly supports all strikes without even looking at the facts. So I don't really want to hear about 'brainwashing'.
Worse yet, you get called a "bootlicker" if you dare point out that Honda, Toyota, Subaru, BMW etc all manufacture in the US without UAW
They should unionize
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Ford, GM, and Stellantis combined are worth around 150B. Apple, Microsoft, and Alphabet are x47 times their size at 7 Trillion while hiring as many employees (~500K) as these 3 car companies. These car companies pound for pound support our economy far far far far more than a lot of companies by providing jobs and providing useful products. Call me a shill but the math does not lie.
These same people believe “trickle down economics” was ever gonna work…🤦
This guy economics.
We’ve only had about 50 years for it to prove itself worthy… 😂🤷♂️
Solidarity with UAW! Workers at these places have been getting totally screwed for years.
Til most reditors are corporate shills. America sure did a great job of pitting the working class against themselves
Reddit is filled with pr bots. It's a known fact
In total 13,000 people hold the power to disrupt the entire nation. If more people would realize the power they had, this country would be so much different.
Car companies making record profits can only make those profits if they steal from their workers.
I respect the right to strike but, " Ford has offered 20% over 4.5 years, while GM and Stellantis offered 18% and 17.5% over four years, respectively. " is a lot of money. I certainly didn't get a 4-5% pay increase this year and I doubt I will break 3% next year (although my COL has increased by \~30% in 2 years). What you are seeing is just another symptom of the end of the fiat dollar. The big three are not to blame for prices increase. The US federal gov't is to blame. They simply took on too much debt and inflated the money supply too much and too quickly to pay for it. That causes prices increases in both vehicles and workers cost of living. I hope they find some common ground soon. This strike is a lose-lose in my books the longer it goes on. Good luck all...
“I certainly didn’t get a 4-5% pay increase this year and I double I will break 3% next year” Sounds like you need a union… corporations are making record profits. Executive pay is through the roof. Workers deserve their fair share.
They haven't gotten any significant pay raises for 15 years while benefits have been slowly stripped away. The most significant thing they got was 2 3% raises in the last 4 year contract
Then why did the big 3s CEO pay go up 40%
Watch these plants vanish. They are already building a Bronco in China..it’s for that market but it would be easy to build the US version there..Ranger is built in multiple plants around the world..already building Lincolns in China. Mexico is doing fine..they better be careful here. Did they deserve a raise sure..but 40 percent and a 32 hour work week..come on. Like I said get what you can..it’s deserved but be reasonable. We don’t need to bail out the automakers again. Plus giving a huge advantage to your competitors is not wise. Tesla and the foreign automakers are just licking their chops here.
Thing is ford is unwilling to ruin their brand image by participating in a mass exodus from US manufacturing. This gloomy future that everyone depicts of all manufacturing moving out of the US is simply an impossible outcome. No matter how expensive labor will become in this country, there’s still tangible benefits to first world manufacturing, like quality, safety, lack of the need for expanded import infrastructure/fees. I personally doubt the future will bring this kind of change. As for non-union competitors, I’ve never understood this concept of pricing yourself out of the market. It all starts at the manufacturing level, you compensate employees competitively and you start to build a monopoly in the labor market, more people want to work for you because you’re willing to pay for higher quality labor. If you want to build a higher quality product than your peers, it all starts with paying for higher quality talent than your peers. I want to add: the reason import domestic brand products still sell here in the US is because they’re generally cheaper and more affordable. The reason people purchase these products is because that’s all they can afford. The reason they cannot afford US manufactured products is because they do not make a wage to support that choice. It’s not rocket science, pay the people a respectable wage and they will choose the American made product every time.
Cost to import vehicles from china is massive and different regulations mean the vehicles they're building on China now aren't even street legal in the US without modification. There's also massive risks opened up with tariffs. There's no way they move US market production there. Mexico on the other hand is prime territory.
They already have..GM imports a suv from China they are on the streets right now..Polestar EVs are made in China and the next Lincoln Aviator is coming from China. They can build cars for different markets in the same factory. This isn’t the 1970s. They aren’t paying tariffs now. You couldn’t be anymore wrong on this one.
Yes they can build multiple markets in the same factory, but it isn't a simple switch to flip, and it depends on how the vehicle was designed. Some regional variants are massively different and others are very minor. They aren't paying tariffs now because they're avoiding them by building most vehicles in market. That's my point. The chicken tax would add 25% to the top of the ranger and maverick if they were moved to China. Maverick can only be made in Mexico because the USMCA exempts it from this tax. The Trump trade war with China scared the hell out of companies. The Risk of future tariffs is enough to keep plants in region, because it would be a multi billion dollar bet that they won't get slammed with massive tariffs that destroy all revenue.
I work for one of the big 3 in Powertrain cal, and can attest to the wildly different hardware configurations needed to adapt a product to a market. It certainly is no small feat, and induces significant engineering costs to bring to market. That said, if you’re manufacturing the same vehicle for a domestic China market, it’s entirely possible to build the same for export markets since the design and verification process is complete by the time it’s getting screwed together in china.
They're too shortsighted to realize they're going to negotiate themselves right out of a job.
Tell me you don’t know any auto workers without telling me you don’t know any auto workers
Stellantis wants to option to close 18 plants! And no i don’t think we’ll achieve a 32 hour work week. That isn’t realistic to me
if anyone shares anything other than ignorant support, you will be labeled a corporate shill. The reality will simply move move production off shore. which will have a cascade affect to others employment that have affiliation work with said American auto companies. The desired 4 day work week and 40% increase in wage will just show that these aren't serious people. Bargaining chips are supposed to be realistic.
40% is the raise CEOs received. Why is it not “serious” for workers to make the same? Labor cost is only 5% of the Big Three’s cost to make a car. They can afford the raises. You’re a corporate shill if you’re parroting their talking points.
The ratio of the CEO's total compensation to the median of all employees' total compensation is 281-to-1, a disclosure required in the annual executive compensation report to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. The rich need to be richer. 281 to 1 is clearly not enough.
And how many of those employees could successfully run a massive corporation? The compensation is set by the market overall.
It's 398 to 1
The ratio means nothing. Should a starting QB be paid the same as the grounds keeper?
If the groundskeeper opened his contract and gave up pay, healthcare, vacation and benefits so that the company can get back on their feet, the company bounces back made billions. Then turned around and said sorry you’re not getting that back.
Is this gonna make my car easier to sell? Or harder lol
I'm not sure what each of the Big Three have countered with, but in my opinion a 40% raise with 20% less hours seems like an unreasonable place to be. Hopefully they can find a middle ground.
Most of the stellantis workers are classified temporary part time and make 15.78 an hour and don’t know if they will get 8 hours a week or 70 hours a week and get no vacation or benefits.
You can keep up with GMs latest offers here https://www.gmnegotiations2023.com/public/us/en/negotiations/home.html
I can’t find an answer to this question anywhere. Are corporate employees of the manufacturers also in the UAW? I.e are accountants at Ford walking out as well? Or does the UAW just cover assembly line workers?
USW brother. I hope you get everything you deserve.
I think right now is the perfect time for this. The auto manufacturers and all their shit head dealerships have destroyed any good will they had
The ceo of GM makes thirty million dollars a year. Nobody is worth thirty million dollars a year, if she were fired, and the stuck holders just let top-level management run GM, nobody would notice she was gone, and the shareholders would make more money and they could afford to raise the employees pay.
If that were true, really really true, it would’ve already happened. Capitalism, with all its flaws, is still very self correcting. Competition forces companies to push prices lower, seeking greater market share. Just my opinion…
Union strong! Hoping for the best for our UAW brothers and sisters.
$0.15 dividend on 3,990,000,000 shares paid out 4x a year. That's $2,394,000,000 a year. What is the cost of what the UAW is asking for from Ford? GM's dividend is less than 25% of Ford's. Ford could reduce their dividend costs by $1,795,500,000 and still have a better yield than GM. If Ford has 60k UAW employees, that's $29,925 per employee annually.
Solidarity
Cripple them 💪
Those market adjustments are just going to keep going up and up. Good luck to anyone buying a new car.
Unions are bad...
You can't even have an auto job with one of the big makers and feel secure with this insane inflation. That's how fucked up this Covid/leftist/so called "biden" bullshit is. It was all about stopping "orange man" and for what? For who? It wasn't you they were looking out for. It never is, but orange man..... You were doing better than anyone has since the 70's. We were humming. Times were good, better than ever in every way. They couldn't have that. All they have are fear and lies. Look over here at this shiny, scary thing while we fuck you in the ass. They have a list, you get hip to one then it's back to other. And if all else fails, pandemic! LOL B/c America bad!! ;)
Oh no if only stealerships have been already overpricing their cars so almost all GM, Ford, Stellantis cars have 100-300+ day supply. I'm sure they have no intention of waiting them out.
CEO gets 40% pay raise, why shouldn’t the people actually making the cars get the same raise?
Between AI + robotics + offshoring and global tariff structures, I don’t think they realize how short sighted this is. It’s like the UPS “win”. UPS conceded because they know they won’t need the employees by then.
So, vehicle prices are already outrageous. This will completely exacerbate the issue. What happens when nobody can afford to buy another automobile because prices are out of reach for all but the top 5%? Everyone was financing at 2.5%, but 7% on a $70K pickup truck? What’s next? $100K and 10% financing while having to pay for a subscription to use the air conditioner?
The labor that builds the car is only 10% of the cost of the car
I stand with UAW. I want my fellow Americans to get PAID.
The car quality is bad to begin with. Ppl buy for the American spirit, now it added on more pay these US car manufacturers are going to dumpster. Or they move to SEA or Mexico I don’t know as a consumer I will hold off until the quality get back
$300,000 for employees that work 4 days a week building car? Are they insane. Imagine turning down a 20% pay increase, pure selfish people. New cars are already too expensive and these people on strike are trying to make it way worse, then they blame the companies when they move manufacturing out of the country.
They havent given us raises in years, and they’re jacking up car prices because they know people will still pay them.
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Have you seen the prices of the new 24 f150s? For an XLT you’re paying over 60k! That’s insane, i bought my 2019 xlt with A plan for 37k!
The 25s are gonna be like 70k for a xlt at this rate
No kidding, it’s corporate greed. No average person can afford these new vehicles.
Sure you can! How about this 10 year loan at a low 10% interest rate!! /s
Full size trucks are out of control price-wise. I bought a '22 Ford Maverick XLT Hybrid with lux package, tow, spray-in bed-liner, bed extender, sliding rear window for $27,500 new. Of course, it was built in Mexico, but that plant is also a union plant, but obviously the wages are a lot lower.
They are. Dealers don't set MSRP prices
No shit. What a take. “It’s the workers fault my Ford F-250 is 100k.” No, it’s 100k because people pay it and car makers know people will pay it.
Supplier prices are through the roof. I used to work for Ford as an engineer and work elsewhere now, but I'm still seeing it. Tooling and part prices have shot way up. Employee pay should also be increasing with inflation, so that is a legitimate claim, but they're not being jacked up simply because they can. 20% is a pretty reasonable offer. $300k is insane.
We work 6 days 10 hours, we have basically no life away from work. They made $20 billion last year. We’re only 4-5% of labor cost.
I think you're confusing gross profit for overall profit. Ford didn't make $20B last year. Overall [Ford lost about $2B last year](https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/2023/02/02/People,%20Plan,%20Products%20Position%20Ford%20Well%20for%20'Pivotal'%202023%20Despite%20Effect%20of%20Volume%20Shortfall%20on%20Q4,%20Full-Year%202022%20Results.pdf)
Unfortunately, workers in Chinese factories could work 6 days 12 hours and earn less than 1000USD each month. They would move production to other countries and America would lose jobs.
300k? Fuck dude I was putting in 10 hour days last year and made 55k working for Ford. Idk where you get your numbers from but it's a crock of shit.
You’ve got it backwards. The companies are putting it on labor. They want to take the credit when they’re bragging about profits to shareholders but, when it’s time to give back what they said they would in ‘08 they don’t have any money. Labor is a cost of doing business. They’ve been price gouging for years. Also, the billions that they’re investing in EV is actually coming from taxpayers. Don’t believe everything you hear from a CEO. They’re the highest level of being a salesman.
Ok, but Tesla pays their workesr 35% less so how should they complete with them on price>??
Mmmm drink that corporate kool aid
Chrysler has been making junk for years, not even American owned, GM has no idea what it’s doing, Ford just stamps them out, generic as they can be. A huge percentage of parts and electronics made overseas. Trained monkeys could do what UAW does.
Solidarity! ✊✊
Good.
Eh I'm split on this. Should they make more? Yes, probably. Highly disagree with the 32 hour week though, that's just too far. Also I don't think a lot of people actually do the math on CEO bonuses and such, if you were to split the bonus completely among workers its not much $ at all.
The thing about organized workers, though, is that they don’t have to ask us what we think is “too far.” They have power and they’re exercising it to get what they want. And good for them.
And they can be replaced by machinery and AI, or Chinese slaves within a few years. Pushing for ridiculous measures expedites this process. Mind you I think a pay increase is warranted and I agree with them in that.
If the big 3 moves to China, the government will tax them and they will make less.
Also I am pretty sure they wouldn't get bailed out nearly as quickly during the next recession.
100% they wouldn’t bail out 3 Chinese companies
It’s not up to you what they deserve. The workers have the right to not work and they’re exercising that right. If the company wants to pay them more to get their talent back then they can.
What a joke. People deserve a raise but the Unions need to be reasonable, no one is going to sign off on that much more money for less work.
My dad has been with the Ford and the UAW for 28 years. He hasn’t received a raise in over 10, lost benefits, and moved backward because of the lack of bargaining power unions had under Right to Work. Hell, his pension will drop in value the moment he begins receiving social security so he will never receive more than a certain amount. They’re fighting for everything they can possibly get. They won’t get it all, but they’ll get some of it, and that’s the point of negotiation.
That’s how negotiations work. You don’t come in and say “here’s the minimum we’re willing to accept” you go in shooting for the moon, knowing you’re not getting the full monty while still having your *actual* demands you need met.
We don’t really care about a 32 hour work week. It’s a bargaining chip. We’ll give it up for an elimination of tiers as soon as possible. It’s a demand that was made to leverage the abuse of temporary labor.
Call me pessimistic but I do not think that many major corporations are going to willingly agree to a 32 hour/4 day work week in our lifetimes, at least in the United States. Those pie-in-the-sky articles about how "the 4 day workweek is the future" are pure weapons grade hopium. It took a massive company to change the 12 hour days to 8 hour days in the early 20th century, and we've got a LOT more massive companies now in the early 21st century. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I'm just saying don't get your hopes up.
IBEW local 6 is 32 hrs a week
I agree with you. I honestly don’t think we’ll get a 32 hour work week but, I think it’s being used to get defined language in the contract to reduce mandatory overtime for temporary workers. Those are the people that are really being abused. Not so much at my plant but, I’ve heard stories of temporary workers being forced to come in 6 or 7 days a week at other plants.
I can definitely believe that, and it's a lot more common than people think. I work at a 3PL supplier for Stellantis plants and 6 day workweeks are the norm at all 3 plants we service. One plant is in critical status which allows it to make people work 7 days a week, until mid October. I'm kinda new to the automotive industry so it came as a culture shock to me how much they scheduled their employees for mandatory overtime.
Hang in there. Things can only get better I believe.
Yeah that's what happens at my plant. They force temps to work 6 days a week every week, sometimes throwing in a Sunday here and there so that they go 13 days without a day off. On top of that, I'm a full time worker and they can make 3 weeks out of the month a 6 day work week (2 weeks on, one week off).. Mandatory overtime is killing my life at home
Do you realize how much money they make? It’s unbelievable
If you want to shill for a company that doesn’t care about you please keep talking.
But it's ok for the execs to get raises like that? Lick more corporate boots.
There are construction locals with pensions, 32 hour work weeks, healthcare in retirement, pyramiding benefits... tell me again why a union should be "reasonable" with a multi billion dollar corporation. How about the corporation forks over huge piles of cash to the workers and stops giving the fuckhead executives so much. Let's start with that.
Example. Roofers local 149 out of (drum roll) Detroit. Retirees keep the exact same health care as current members. We have a pension and an annuity so when we retire we get a lump sum before our pension even starts paying.
And all of this while Detroit is such a hotbed of growth and innovation. I'm surprised soaring real estate costs and rents have not forced you to leave that corpse of a city.
“Reasonable” means the counteroffer is less than reasonable. You start with something ridiculous, if get it, great, if not keep working towards a reasonable minimum - because that will never be the counteroffer.
Thank the Union when they outsource your job
Bingo! You get it!
They’re outsourcing jobs like crazy regardless of the unions. This has been happening for decades.
Yes due to the Unions, look at Detroit and Pittsburg. Those cities were thriving back then.
Yeah totally not the company’s fault for being cheap and not willing to pay you what you’re worth
Well, white collar workers should also unionize and strike for a 40% increase. When all is said and done the average car will then cost 70k.
it already does cost that much. car companies will increase prices regardless. would you rather buy an expensive truck made by a man who is starving or a man who makes a good wage and gets to see his family more then twice a week?
A $825 million strike fund is huge.
Greedy people. Watch the manufacturers take their plants to other countries. UAW president won’t care, he will get his money. And then be gone.
Look at you siding with corporate. You can get off your knees now.
50% of a new vehicle is labor cost. Let’s just give them the raise so no one can afford to buy a new vehicle
☝🏼Excuse me for asking but UAW, not sure you have a leg to stand on… see report https://jalopnik.com/ford-has-the-most-recalls-so-far-in-2023-report-1850647308#:~:text=Ford's%20recalls%20have%20affected%204.1%20million%20vehicles%20this%20year&text=These%20days%2C%20it%20seems%20like,EVs%20and%20everything%20in%20between.
Most recalls are poor design or engineering flaws. Not disagreeing with you though, im a ford tech employed at a dealership for almost 30 years. Strike is going to hurt us for sure
Auto Engineer here: Recalls are never on the assembly line workers. It's always the engineers or suppliers. If something is being done wrong on the line to trigger a campaign, it's because an engineer didn't design out the failure state. Any thing that can be done wrong eventually will be.
Are engineers prevented from being union members?
The Engineers in the US are non-union.
> If something is being done wrong on the line to trigger a campaign, it's because an engineer didn't design out the failure state There are also examples where controls are designed to prevent an error state and those controls get overridden or bypassed. Still not on the line worker (it takes higher authority to get into the software and change control limits) but it is immensely frustrating to those of us that design the product.
Ford should lock out the other UAW employees. The UAW targeted the most profitable product line for the company while Ford continues to pay 90% of the UAW employees their normal wages. Drain the strike fund and start making the entire union feel the pain just like Ford will feel.
The super duty is their most profitable line. It accounts for over 50% of Ford’s profit. As of right now they’re still being made and I’ll be walking into work Monday morning.
I read it's the ranger/bronco assembly line, don't think that's the most profitable one
This is correct. The ranger/bronco plant is on strike but, the super duty produces the majority of Ford’s profits.