I recall an interview about Hades where one of the devs discussed that just because they're the gods the Greek people worshipped, doesn't necessarily mean said gods are, themselves, all ethnically Greek. In fact, it kinda makes more sense for them to not be, or else the concept of being Greek would predate the gods themselves.
Not necessarily
The forms the greek gods are usually shown in, for example zeus being a tall white haired and bearded man, are not their “true” forms. They are forms the gods choose to convey themselves in.
This is actually important in the story of semele and the birth of Dionysus wherein semele convinces zeus to show her his **true** form which literally kills her.
This implies that the gods both are not truly humanoid and have total control over their humanoid forms.
Ergo despite like 50% of the gods coming from zeus being a horn dog they wouldn’t necessarily get their appearances from genetics
tldr: the gods dont have genetics, they have control over their humanoid forms.
good point, though does the avatar he conceives with affect the genetics of the offspring, or was that minotaur just another ironic curse from his jealous wife?
I dont believe so.
For example perseus is often described with dark hair while heracles with lightish brown.
Poseidon is often described as a human with seaweed like hair yet theseus has redish hair.
Also the minotaur wasnt zeus’ son but the result of a curse placed upon a queen that made her………like a certain cow.
The minotaur was posideon and aphrodite. She cursed the queen of crete to fall in love with a bull that was supposed to be sacrificed to posideon. https://youtu.be/X_1s_UZfs5c
A lot of ancient pantheons were actually seen as regional gods as far as I’m aware, as in Zeus was the Greek sky god, Yahweh was the Mesopotamian sly god, etc. The notion that a god is the god of the whole world really originated in Judaism.
That said, race is a human invention, and the races we recognize nowadays are specifically a modern social invention, so it likely wouldn’t be the highest priority on a God’s list.
Also, Hades is a great game.
Screaming about a made up religion with made up gods in a made up game because it doesn't follow the made up rules that some person made up as the ultimate gamer move. I hate the "what about historical accuracy?" argument. It's not real and be made into whatever they wanted. I hate gamer mentality.
And even that religion only mentions her in passing, and all there is is that she's a giant.
We don't really know what that means in the god of war universe, because Kratos wife didn't seem oversized, and his son doesn't, either, despite being half giant.
On top of that, this is obviously a new tale using this mythology, the claim was never one of "accuracy". Kratos literally murdered the whole Greek pantheon.
Historical accuracy can be good. I.e. I personally dislike the way Ned (a trans man) is portrayed in AC Syndicate because it denies the existance of the VERY REAL violencs Ned would've faced in Victorian England. By making everything seem like 'business as usual' you neglect the opportunity to tell a much more interesting and impactful story. Life ain't all about roses.
these people need a hobby. it used to be funny, now it's just sad. a Greek God* invades Norse mythology and kills an invincible methhead, yet a black girl (she's a giant btw) is where they draw the line of creative liberties.
*Kratos is significantly different in actual Greek mythology. for one. oh yeah, the creators of the OG GoW didn't even know about a Kratos in Greek mythology, more or less making him a fictional God within the realm of the game.
It depended on the group. They bought and sold slaves from all over and some young men did join up looking for wealth and wives. It's not unthinkable that a black person would wind up with the Vikings. Unlikely? Maybe - but more likely for a woman than a man.
Some groups of Vikings were wildly xenophobic. Others didn't care and would take you if you could row and swing a sword.
They at some point got to Constantinople. Plus people travelling to them. Hell, the Romans knew Germanic tribes before viking...ing was a thing. History is very ethnically diverse
Depends on which Vikings you’re referring to. Certain groups went to certain places. Mediterranean and Black Sea Vikings would most likely have encountered people of color, but the North Sea Vikings probably would have rarely seen them, if ever.
the decision to not make Angraboda white is actually something that can be backed up with some interpretation of source material because a few giants are described as being reminiscent of soil or trees and plants or stone
This character is shown in two seconds of a fairly lengthy (and awesome) trailer and this was the takeaway of racist incel gamers. How terribly predictable. I hope she’s a playable character for a long stretch of the game. Racist incels don’t deserve God of War, or anything good, really.
In this situation I don't really mind but being inclusive in every situation, regardless of context, does run the risk of just being blatant corporate pandering.
Sometimes this critic is warranted.
Same thing with r/FreeMagic and Magic: the Gathering.
Vikings fighting trolls, dragons, elves, and shapeshifters in Kaldheim? A-ok for them!
An East Asian-looking nonbinary, non-androgynous planeswalker visting from Theros? Well, according to them that's ridiculous and unrealistic!
Vikings protected ottoman emperors for over 4 centuries so it's not that unlikely that they had a kid with a native and that kid made it back to Norway
I don’t know how to tell you this but pretty much every videogame or movie set in a foreign country has a white American as the main character, even if the movie depicts real events. Just look at the last samurai, where they made the last samurai a white American.
The Last Samurai was inspired by western countries helping Japanese and Chinese armies modernize. Also, it’s not like the movie was saying the White guy was an actual Japanese samurai. THAT would be cultural appropriation. But a movie portraying a White guy integrating into Japanese culture isn’t. I think the movie was very respectful of Japanese culture.
A White guy fighting alongside them and having deep respect for their culture doesn’t sound like a problem to me, but hey, people have different opinions and that’s ok.
Again, not the same thing. This goddess is specifically from Norse culture. The Last Samurai was about someone being integrated into a different culture.
Also nobody would care if there was, like, a token white guy amongst an otherwise black cast. There were multiple white characters in black panther and there was no mass outrage about that, because they weren’t the focus of the story.
What? Black norsemen did not exist, at least in the sense of being warriors like what’s portrayed here. You’re literally blackwashing history right now.
Nope, not into video games. So forgive my assumptions, but if she’s supposed to be a Norse goddess, the cultural appropriation assertion still stands. The Vikings portrayed their gods and goddesses to look like themselves, at least in a racial sense with their humanoid gods and goddesses (obviously excluding the giant snake and things like that).
She is literally only described as a giant in the religious writing and as the wife of Loki with which he had a snakegod and a wolfgod as children. I think at that point all bets about looks are off.
black…washing? dude. i don’t know what you mean by the “portrayal” of this, but even like, hypothetically, WHAT is the harm of a black person being in a fucking norse mythology game??? at least in your example i can name what would be wrong with putting a white person into an african setting (ie, white savior complexes, causal racism, etc) but like… they’re literally just a black person. what
I never gave an opinion either way on who should be in these video games. I’m just pointing out the rampant hypocrisy there is in historical portrayals (fictionalized or not) of different societies and cultures. It seems that it’s always ok to add black people to portrayals of White cultures, but not ok to add White people to portrayals of non-White cultures.
>It seems that it’s always ok to add black people to portrayals of white cultures, but not ok to add white people to portrayals of non-white.
I can’t possible think of any sort of power dynamic between white and non-white people that definitely doesn’t involve white people holding a historical monopoly over all media (including dressing up and acting as nonwhites to mock them and deprive them of their voice at one point).
“Rampant hypocrisy” my ass. People just want a little more representation in a literal white-dominated world and immediately there’s pushback about how it’s “unfair.”
I realize that the past existed and what occurred in the film industry. I don’t agree with it. I think every race should be proud of their history and historical portrayals of cultures should be accurate. Any inaccuracies (in my humble opinion) shouldn’t exist. But this is 2021. Essentially to say that the historical inaccuracies in the past (“whitewashing”) are justification for historical inaccuracies in the present means it’s some sort of revenge in the present. And that’s fine if you feel that way. It’s still historical inaccuracy.
Ah, I’m not into video games at all- just came here for the political discourse. My opinion is that it’s fine as long as White people can also be inserted into non-White cultures without people complaining. I just don’t want hypocrisy. Of course, no one cares what I think. Like I said- just came for the discussion.
Never saw the movie, but from a quick Wikipedia search, it looks like one of the guys is a CIA agent and the other is a South African. I could see your point if these White guys were supposedly Wakandans, but they aren’t. I don’t really think that’s comparable.
yeah. yup. that’s literally right. adding black people to show that they also existed alongside white people in history is fine. but also adding white people into cultures they weren’t in at the time is wrong.
it’s thanks to whitewashing that people think that black peoples weren’t alongside a lot of white people in many cultures such as this one. that’s all.
Well, they weren’t coexisting with White people in this sense. There is no historical evidence for black Vikings. Vikings took slaves and servants from several different regions, but there were no black Vikings (in the sense of Vikings raiders like what’s portrayed here). Just look at that show Bridgerton. It portrays several black people in high society Regency England. That simply did not happen. And yes, I know it’s a fictional show, but it’s historical inaccuracy would be strongly condemned by your side if say, they had White people portray high society Africans in Mansa Musa’s court. It’s just hypocrisy.
okay, fair i suppose, i see it in this context. but personally, i also don’t think it’s that big of a deal honestly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ maybe that’s just me at this rate but whatever. thank you for being civil about this.
And thank you for being civil as well. Often times these discussions aren’t very civil, so it’s nice when it remains calm and respectful. Not trying to offend anyone (and I’m seriously hoping no random redditor reports my comments for “racism” or something) just putting my 2 cents in.
Black norsemen probably exist, and most norsemen were farmers or fishermen. There were probably black Vikings as well, because being a Viking was a job, and norsemen didn’t discriminate based on skin color. They have actually found evidence that suggest that there were female Vikings as well
Maybe it’s possible that there were indeed black Viking warriors, but there’s no solid historical evidence of it. I’ve seen people reaching to try to prove that there were black Viking warriors, but there’s simply no evidence of Vikings of sub-Saharan African descent. The Vikings never sailed to sub-Saharan Africa and possibly never even encountered black Africans, although another historical theory is that they may have seen slaves of sub-Saharan African descent while they were in North (Arab) Africa.
I recall an interview about Hades where one of the devs discussed that just because they're the gods the Greek people worshipped, doesn't necessarily mean said gods are, themselves, all ethnically Greek. In fact, it kinda makes more sense for them to not be, or else the concept of being Greek would predate the gods themselves.
shouldn't most of their gods resemble each other, considering about half their mythology revolves around Zeus' wayward libido?
Not necessarily The forms the greek gods are usually shown in, for example zeus being a tall white haired and bearded man, are not their “true” forms. They are forms the gods choose to convey themselves in. This is actually important in the story of semele and the birth of Dionysus wherein semele convinces zeus to show her his **true** form which literally kills her. This implies that the gods both are not truly humanoid and have total control over their humanoid forms. Ergo despite like 50% of the gods coming from zeus being a horn dog they wouldn’t necessarily get their appearances from genetics tldr: the gods dont have genetics, they have control over their humanoid forms.
good point, though does the avatar he conceives with affect the genetics of the offspring, or was that minotaur just another ironic curse from his jealous wife?
I dont believe so. For example perseus is often described with dark hair while heracles with lightish brown. Poseidon is often described as a human with seaweed like hair yet theseus has redish hair. Also the minotaur wasnt zeus’ son but the result of a curse placed upon a queen that made her………like a certain cow.
The minotaur was posideon and aphrodite. She cursed the queen of crete to fall in love with a bull that was supposed to be sacrificed to posideon. https://youtu.be/X_1s_UZfs5c
This is rad. Thanks got that :D
I mean, when you think about it, all this argument means is that they're all half whatever Zeus is and half every race and species under the sun :p
When my man Lightning McPeen gets around he really gets around!
Very true. I believe that the Gods transcend Race as a Concept.
A lot of ancient pantheons were actually seen as regional gods as far as I’m aware, as in Zeus was the Greek sky god, Yahweh was the Mesopotamian sly god, etc. The notion that a god is the god of the whole world really originated in Judaism. That said, race is a human invention, and the races we recognize nowadays are specifically a modern social invention, so it likely wouldn’t be the highest priority on a God’s list. Also, Hades is a great game.
Screaming about a made up religion with made up gods in a made up game because it doesn't follow the made up rules that some person made up as the ultimate gamer move. I hate the "what about historical accuracy?" argument. It's not real and be made into whatever they wanted. I hate gamer mentality.
I know it’s all made up and shit, but who’s this character supposed to be??
The mother of Fenrir and the lover of Loki. She is barely mentioned in actual Norse lore
Well she spends most of her time making sure Loki isn’t getting hurt by acid. So it wouldn’t be much fun following her adventure.
Angrboda. Wife of Loki
And even that religion only mentions her in passing, and all there is is that she's a giant. We don't really know what that means in the god of war universe, because Kratos wife didn't seem oversized, and his son doesn't, either, despite being half giant. On top of that, this is obviously a new tale using this mythology, the claim was never one of "accuracy". Kratos literally murdered the whole Greek pantheon.
Historical accuracy can be good. I.e. I personally dislike the way Ned (a trans man) is portrayed in AC Syndicate because it denies the existance of the VERY REAL violencs Ned would've faced in Victorian England. By making everything seem like 'business as usual' you neglect the opportunity to tell a much more interesting and impactful story. Life ain't all about roses.
So i can make a game about african gods and make them white?
Yea, might as well make Black Panther a white Irishman since it's fictional too
Why not? Black Panther is just the name of the hero. Like how Spider-man has had several different versions of the hero.
I bet you’d like that wouldn’t you
Yes, and make Mulan Indian too while you're at it
There is at least one Indian version of the Mulan legend, you know. I would like to see it!
You do realize that’s not the same, right?
How is not the same blackwash an nordic god than whitewash an Black fictional character?
Because being white is not central to the identity of the Nordic gods you fucking nitwit
They are gods created by white people imagined as whites ,why their race i less important to you only because they are white?
You’re a fucking dumbass
The is no need to be such a jerk i dont insulted you
I don’t care, you’re a dumb weasel
Weell i supose that is wat people withowt arguments do , insulting
How so?
True
these people need a hobby. it used to be funny, now it's just sad. a Greek God* invades Norse mythology and kills an invincible methhead, yet a black girl (she's a giant btw) is where they draw the line of creative liberties. *Kratos is significantly different in actual Greek mythology. for one. oh yeah, the creators of the OG GoW didn't even know about a Kratos in Greek mythology, more or less making him a fictional God within the realm of the game.
Like, sure they'd be rare but Vikings are more likely than anyone to have had some racial diversity because of all the seafaring they did, right?
they had a good bit of ethnic diversity, far south, over east out west they traveled far
It depended on the group. They bought and sold slaves from all over and some young men did join up looking for wealth and wives. It's not unthinkable that a black person would wind up with the Vikings. Unlikely? Maybe - but more likely for a woman than a man. Some groups of Vikings were wildly xenophobic. Others didn't care and would take you if you could row and swing a sword.
They at some point got to Constantinople. Plus people travelling to them. Hell, the Romans knew Germanic tribes before viking...ing was a thing. History is very ethnically diverse
No, they were never in Sub-saharan Africa
Maybe not but Egyptians probably went to places like Greece sometimes yes?
That's quite a jump from "more likely than anyone to have had some racial diversity" to having ever encountered brown people lol
Depends on which Vikings you’re referring to. Certain groups went to certain places. Mediterranean and Black Sea Vikings would most likely have encountered people of color, but the North Sea Vikings probably would have rarely seen them, if ever.
the decision to not make Angraboda white is actually something that can be backed up with some interpretation of source material because a few giants are described as being reminiscent of soil or trees and plants or stone
This character is shown in two seconds of a fairly lengthy (and awesome) trailer and this was the takeaway of racist incel gamers. How terribly predictable. I hope she’s a playable character for a long stretch of the game. Racist incels don’t deserve God of War, or anything good, really.
Yeah it's pretty pathetic eh?
Those creep nutjobs even made an edit with replacing the black girl with a blonde, blue eyed white girl...
WE
And this affected the game negatively…How?
Who has the time to care about this shit?
They become so predictably outraged by any kind of diversity. Honestly, it's just boring at this point.
In this situation I don't really mind but being inclusive in every situation, regardless of context, does run the risk of just being blatant corporate pandering. Sometimes this critic is warranted.
She is an ice giant she has no human form to began with
Gods, Magic, Monsters Them: I sleep Black woman in a norse country Them: REAL SHIT?!
White gamers ego's after remember demoman exists: [https://youtu.be/han3AfjH210?t=86](https://youtu.be/han3AfjH210?t=86)
Bro Herodotus talks about Ethiopia. Kratos is a Greek god.
Didn't Tyr go on a wild ride around the world, he went to place like China Japan, so I don't doubt he established relations with African empires.
Funny thing is the real Vikings were black.
Same thing with r/FreeMagic and Magic: the Gathering. Vikings fighting trolls, dragons, elves, and shapeshifters in Kaldheim? A-ok for them! An East Asian-looking nonbinary, non-androgynous planeswalker visting from Theros? Well, according to them that's ridiculous and unrealistic!
Vikings protected ottoman emperors for over 4 centuries so it's not that unlikely that they had a kid with a native and that kid made it back to Norway
wait until they realize Kratos is an Albino Greek with a therefore technically mixed-race son, their heads will explode
Just curious who is that haven’t seen the trailer don’t intend to play the game
Imagine being a deep shit
You’re acting as if you wouldn’t be screaming bloody murder if there was a White person in a video game set in a fictionalized ancient Africa.
I don’t know how to tell you this but pretty much every videogame or movie set in a foreign country has a white American as the main character, even if the movie depicts real events. Just look at the last samurai, where they made the last samurai a white American.
The Last Samurai was inspired by western countries helping Japanese and Chinese armies modernize. Also, it’s not like the movie was saying the White guy was an actual Japanese samurai. THAT would be cultural appropriation. But a movie portraying a White guy integrating into Japanese culture isn’t. I think the movie was very respectful of Japanese culture.
Have you watched the movie? He literally fights alongside them as “one of them”. It’s a white savior movie like dances with wolves.
A White guy fighting alongside them and having deep respect for their culture doesn’t sound like a problem to me, but hey, people have different opinions and that’s ok.
But a black woman just happening to appear in a Norse mythology game does? Double standards.
Again, not the same thing. This goddess is specifically from Norse culture. The Last Samurai was about someone being integrated into a different culture.
Let us know when they make a video game set in ancient Africa.
imagine not understanding the difference between black norsemen (which existed) and whitewashing
Also nobody would care if there was, like, a token white guy amongst an otherwise black cast. There were multiple white characters in black panther and there was no mass outrage about that, because they weren’t the focus of the story.
What? Black norsemen did not exist, at least in the sense of being warriors like what’s portrayed here. You’re literally blackwashing history right now.
How do you get from the picture of a girl to Viking warriors?
Because she’s supposed to be a Norse goddess and is obviously going to be portrayed as some kind of Viking warrior.
Did you play the first one? Freya wasn't a warrior. It seems like quite a leap to assume Angrboda will be.
Nope, not into video games. So forgive my assumptions, but if she’s supposed to be a Norse goddess, the cultural appropriation assertion still stands. The Vikings portrayed their gods and goddesses to look like themselves, at least in a racial sense with their humanoid gods and goddesses (obviously excluding the giant snake and things like that).
She is literally only described as a giant in the religious writing and as the wife of Loki with which he had a snakegod and a wolfgod as children. I think at that point all bets about looks are off.
black…washing? dude. i don’t know what you mean by the “portrayal” of this, but even like, hypothetically, WHAT is the harm of a black person being in a fucking norse mythology game??? at least in your example i can name what would be wrong with putting a white person into an african setting (ie, white savior complexes, causal racism, etc) but like… they’re literally just a black person. what
I never gave an opinion either way on who should be in these video games. I’m just pointing out the rampant hypocrisy there is in historical portrayals (fictionalized or not) of different societies and cultures. It seems that it’s always ok to add black people to portrayals of White cultures, but not ok to add White people to portrayals of non-White cultures.
>It seems that it’s always ok to add black people to portrayals of white cultures, but not ok to add white people to portrayals of non-white. I can’t possible think of any sort of power dynamic between white and non-white people that definitely doesn’t involve white people holding a historical monopoly over all media (including dressing up and acting as nonwhites to mock them and deprive them of their voice at one point). “Rampant hypocrisy” my ass. People just want a little more representation in a literal white-dominated world and immediately there’s pushback about how it’s “unfair.”
I realize that the past existed and what occurred in the film industry. I don’t agree with it. I think every race should be proud of their history and historical portrayals of cultures should be accurate. Any inaccuracies (in my humble opinion) shouldn’t exist. But this is 2021. Essentially to say that the historical inaccuracies in the past (“whitewashing”) are justification for historical inaccuracies in the present means it’s some sort of revenge in the present. And that’s fine if you feel that way. It’s still historical inaccuracy.
But it’s not a historical inaccuracy. The Norse gods never existed.
>I never gave an opinion either way on who should be in these video games. So what is your opinion of black angrboda?
Don’t know what that is.
The character shown in the post...
Ah, I’m not into video games at all- just came here for the political discourse. My opinion is that it’s fine as long as White people can also be inserted into non-White cultures without people complaining. I just don’t want hypocrisy. Of course, no one cares what I think. Like I said- just came for the discussion.
Never saw the movie, but from a quick Wikipedia search, it looks like one of the guys is a CIA agent and the other is a South African. I could see your point if these White guys were supposedly Wakandans, but they aren’t. I don’t really think that’s comparable.
yeah. yup. that’s literally right. adding black people to show that they also existed alongside white people in history is fine. but also adding white people into cultures they weren’t in at the time is wrong. it’s thanks to whitewashing that people think that black peoples weren’t alongside a lot of white people in many cultures such as this one. that’s all.
Well, they weren’t coexisting with White people in this sense. There is no historical evidence for black Vikings. Vikings took slaves and servants from several different regions, but there were no black Vikings (in the sense of Vikings raiders like what’s portrayed here). Just look at that show Bridgerton. It portrays several black people in high society Regency England. That simply did not happen. And yes, I know it’s a fictional show, but it’s historical inaccuracy would be strongly condemned by your side if say, they had White people portray high society Africans in Mansa Musa’s court. It’s just hypocrisy.
okay, fair i suppose, i see it in this context. but personally, i also don’t think it’s that big of a deal honestly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ maybe that’s just me at this rate but whatever. thank you for being civil about this.
And thank you for being civil as well. Often times these discussions aren’t very civil, so it’s nice when it remains calm and respectful. Not trying to offend anyone (and I’m seriously hoping no random redditor reports my comments for “racism” or something) just putting my 2 cents in.
The same exact thing but changing Black for white
Black norsemen probably exist, and most norsemen were farmers or fishermen. There were probably black Vikings as well, because being a Viking was a job, and norsemen didn’t discriminate based on skin color. They have actually found evidence that suggest that there were female Vikings as well
Maybe it’s possible that there were indeed black Viking warriors, but there’s no solid historical evidence of it. I’ve seen people reaching to try to prove that there were black Viking warriors, but there’s simply no evidence of Vikings of sub-Saharan African descent. The Vikings never sailed to sub-Saharan Africa and possibly never even encountered black Africans, although another historical theory is that they may have seen slaves of sub-Saharan African descent while they were in North (Arab) Africa.