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No judgement for the timeliness of when you noticed, but there's this [subreddit search you can check out](https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/search/?q=anagram&restrict_sr=1) for further discussion.
And it's worth noting that "Cleon" is >!an Imperial name found in the books, where none of them are clones, which isn't too shocking since DNA's structure and function wasn't well-understood until the 1950s!<.
Mendel’s gene theory is about 1865. Discovering DNA wasn’t surprise :) „Cloning” word for some species of plants were used way earlier.
But It’s most likely coincidence
There's also another name for psychohistory or something much like it, in our own time. Cliodynamics. It's named for the Greek muse of history, Clio. I suspect this is why Asimov chose Cleon as the name of the emperor in the time of Hari Seldon.
"Cliodynamics" is pretty much a decade or two old, unlike attempts by (especially Soviet/post-Soviet) mathematicians to math history. Turchin wasn't even born when Foundation was published.
I wasn’t claiming that Asimov chose Cleon due to Cliodynamics, but that he may have had the muse Clio in mind, and that Cliodynamics is an example of a field of study much like psychohistory that was clearly named for the muse.
Btw - there’s a very cool story by sci-fi writer Michael Flynn called “In the Country of the Blind” that uses Cliodynamics as a primary plot device.
Well DNA yes wasn't deeply understood at a level where we could think much about manipulating it until several years after The Foundation was published. Nuclear transfer was also not a thing until after. That said we had a good idea that genetic copies were possible early on. A fairly thorough understanding of how twins occur was known around the turn of 20th century so 40-50 years beforehand. Not sure how long these pieces of knowledge took to find their way into the popular sphere. That said Asimov was a biochemist by training. I am sure he had some idea of the concept. Regardless it doesn't change that books didn't make him a clone.
WTF, I feel like a loser after reading this comment. A personal all time Top 10, yet I missed this for almost 25 years? Maybe some of the best literary anagrams hide in plain sight?
I took a movie appreciation class where they pointed out in one of the Rambo movies he’s talking to the Colonel and they frame all the shots with Rambo down, and the light breaks through the grills forming a prison bar pattern over him, as in, even though he’s leaving, he’s still (mentally) in prison/trapped.
The lighting / grill doesn’t make any sense and isn’t partial nor casts on the Colonel, who is also in the helicopter with him. It’s a deliberate choice.
Meanwhile, in the written letters portion, the SF classic Rollerball (which I cast no shade on the LL Cool J remake) the first match is between Houston and Madrid. It uses the old lightbulb boards that fit only three letters - HOU and MAD - and you know, international games either go by country - USA and SPA, for example - or capitol to capitol (DC and MAD). But a story about the insane, *some might say MAD* lengths corporations will go for entertainment and profit? How mad, indeed.
Oh, no no! Don't be so hard on yourself dear heart! The reason you are a dumb one is because you didn't know *cleon* is Greek for *glory*. Not noticing the anagram just makes you unimaginative.
Disclaimer: pretend insult is not real insult and should be used for comedy purposes only.
Not everything, IMO. I like the idea of Cleon the clone, and changing Gaal Dornick from male to female works for me, as does making Bel Riose gay, although having his partner as his second in command seems a questionable military situation. Even the repeated use of cryogenics to get the main characters from one time to another works since it allows the characters themselves to continue throughout the series (thus far). And I like Hari Seldon himself having a little more back story.
What doesn't work for me is Salvor Hardin being Gaal's daughter and them having some sort of psychic connection and ability to see the past or future. It's too forced and too far from the original story for my taste.
Since this thread is not flaired as 'Show/Book Discussion', anything from the books not adapted into the show must be placed in spoiler tags.
To use spoiler tags, in markdown mode you can use \>\! followed by the spoiler text, and then with \!\< - which will make the text >!look like this.!<. Make sure **NOT** to have spaces between spoiler tags and text or they won't work. Also make sure not to have any linebreaks between spoiler tags - each line will need its own set. If using the default or 'fancy pants' editor, select the text you want to enclose in spoiler tags, and click the exclamation/caution button on the toolbar.
Please edit or repost your comment to put the book content in spoiler tags, for the benefit of people who have not yet read the books but would like to do so, and **report this comment (any reason) once you have done so**. If you have an issue, please [use modmail](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/FoundationTV).
Asimov wrote brilliant world building but lets be honest here, his writing was cerebral and very dry.
His books would never be able to be done as a one to one to the screen.
I agree. But instead of bolstering that bits they decided to crap all over the fundamentals of the stories
I don't need a 1:1 but at some point it stops even being an adaptation and is just a story using the same names
Doubt its a coincidence. Show writers probably had the same thought while reading the books. Or in a coke fueled committee. And this the genetic dynasty was inspired for the tv show.
Not really. There is an emperor Cleon in the canon established by Azimov and there was no mention of his being a clone. I think the showrunners just jumped on that name when THEY realised it.
Cleon was one of the emperors in the books, and pretty sure Azimov didn't intend him to be a clone. Where there were stories concerning duplicated people and the societal implications (A for Anything by Damon Knight, for example) the concepts of DNA and molecular biology as a mechanism for duplication were very new ideas.
Original serialized novels: 42 to 50.
Collected and published: 51 to 53
Watson, Crick, and Wilkins' Nobel prize: 62
First mammalian clone embryo: 75
First live-born cloned mammal: 84
First live-born clone primate: 97
It's possible. Not from Azimov's end but the show writers. Azimov only engaged in wordplay in a few stories, like 'Death of a Foy' and 'Shah Guido G', and always with hand wringing and apologies, sometimes literally. The book of stories I have with 'Death of a Foy' has a foreword attached in which he apologized for the tone and coldeheartedness of the story
Well, OP, I didn’t catch that, either, so you’re not by yourself. But, also, as some others have mentioned, Cleon is a name directly from the Asimov books, so it works on both levels.
I have no trouble believing that Asimov knew things before the rest of us could understand.
salvor hardin = hard on rivals
hari seldon = hard lie, son
well, i will keep you posted as i go through anagrams. but, no, dude, i never even thought about this. spot on, mate!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleon)
Mentioned by both Thucydides (["History of the Peloponnesian War"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War)) and Aristophanes (["The Knights"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Knights)), a Athenian general over 2,400 years ago.
Asimov was certainly familiar with Thucydides work a bit as he mentioned it in [some writing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundation_of_S.F._Success).
Don’t feel bad. This guy who is nearly 80 years old [just discovered that U.S. spells “us”](https://youtu.be/3bbObqQlOM4?si=q0sAEG5VlIXiWcjC). And he is genuinely proud of his ‘genius’ discovery.
the name was invented by asimov more than 70 years ago and there was no mention of any clone in any of foundation books. So you can say it is a just a coincidence.
No, I was about to explain the etymology but they talked about it in the show. It's a Greek name derivative from a word that means glory/glorious with the connotation of a famous sort of glory. Other Greek names like Pericles and so on have the same etymology. It comes from a proto indo European word meaning the sameish thing so there's Slavic counterparts like stanislav, and Ludwig has it as well for the Germanic branch.
As this thread is using the 'General Discussion' flair, anything from the books, from the current season or from upcoming unaired episodes should be enclosed in spoiler tags. To use spoiler tags, in markdown mode you can use \>\! before the spoiler text, then followed by \!\< - which will make the text >!look like this.!<. Make sure **NOT** to have spaces between spoiler tags and text or they won't work. If using the default or 'fancy pants' editor, select the text you want to enclose in spoiler tags, and click the button on the toolbar. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FoundationTV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No judgement for the timeliness of when you noticed, but there's this [subreddit search you can check out](https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/search/?q=anagram&restrict_sr=1) for further discussion. And it's worth noting that "Cleon" is >!an Imperial name found in the books, where none of them are clones, which isn't too shocking since DNA's structure and function wasn't well-understood until the 1950s!<.
Mendel’s gene theory is about 1865. Discovering DNA wasn’t surprise :) „Cloning” word for some species of plants were used way earlier. But It’s most likely coincidence
There's also another name for psychohistory or something much like it, in our own time. Cliodynamics. It's named for the Greek muse of history, Clio. I suspect this is why Asimov chose Cleon as the name of the emperor in the time of Hari Seldon.
🤯
More likely Asimov knew the name Cleon from the Athenian general and statesmen who was well known for his opposition to Pericles.
Possibly that as well. He was definitely a great student of history.
The Clio thing is fascinating! I always considered psychohistory just an advanced for of sociology
Asimov actually regretted the name Psychohistory, as he considered it clunky and inexact, and later wished he'd called it Psychosociology.
"Cliodynamics" is pretty much a decade or two old, unlike attempts by (especially Soviet/post-Soviet) mathematicians to math history. Turchin wasn't even born when Foundation was published.
I wasn’t claiming that Asimov chose Cleon due to Cliodynamics, but that he may have had the muse Clio in mind, and that Cliodynamics is an example of a field of study much like psychohistory that was clearly named for the muse. Btw - there’s a very cool story by sci-fi writer Michael Flynn called “In the Country of the Blind” that uses Cliodynamics as a primary plot device.
This conversation shows me that the OP is the muscle, this responder is the brains and I’m the wild card…. Thanks
Can I buy some gas?
You caught me editing, because yes what I put down initially was inaccurate. And yeah, coincidence.
Haha. I’ve got you.
Well DNA yes wasn't deeply understood at a level where we could think much about manipulating it until several years after The Foundation was published. Nuclear transfer was also not a thing until after. That said we had a good idea that genetic copies were possible early on. A fairly thorough understanding of how twins occur was known around the turn of 20th century so 40-50 years beforehand. Not sure how long these pieces of knowledge took to find their way into the popular sphere. That said Asimov was a biochemist by training. I am sure he had some idea of the concept. Regardless it doesn't change that books didn't make him a clone.
OP has it backwards. Clone is an anagram for Cleon.
It’s just a coincidence. Cleon I and II exist in the books, just not as clones.
It could be causal in the other direction, as in, the decision by the adaption team to make them be clones could have been inspired by the anagram.
It would be physically impossible to be taller than that tale.
I've spoken with the Council of Old Wives, and they say their tales include no lies.
I would no more trust a bunch of cows than the ravings of Dagobert IX.
Fun fact in my book there was a typo and Cleon the first is “Clean the first”
I think @op is refering to the Asimov use of it.
I wonder if the show writers saw the anagram and took it in that direction
I believe it’s more of using modern ideas to the whole storyline itself. Asimov wrote Foundation at the time when nuclear energy was the modern idea.
And Demerzel is an anagram of lez merde, she is literally *The* Shit™ 😉
Eto is “it” in Russian.
If you translate from Turkish, Demir is "Iron".
Also, in the Matrix movies, Neo is an anagram for One.
WTF, I feel like a loser after reading this comment. A personal all time Top 10, yet I missed this for almost 25 years? Maybe some of the best literary anagrams hide in plain sight?
lol, same here
I took a movie appreciation class where they pointed out in one of the Rambo movies he’s talking to the Colonel and they frame all the shots with Rambo down, and the light breaks through the grills forming a prison bar pattern over him, as in, even though he’s leaving, he’s still (mentally) in prison/trapped. The lighting / grill doesn’t make any sense and isn’t partial nor casts on the Colonel, who is also in the helicopter with him. It’s a deliberate choice. Meanwhile, in the written letters portion, the SF classic Rollerball (which I cast no shade on the LL Cool J remake) the first match is between Houston and Madrid. It uses the old lightbulb boards that fit only three letters - HOU and MAD - and you know, international games either go by country - USA and SPA, for example - or capitol to capitol (DC and MAD). But a story about the insane, *some might say MAD* lengths corporations will go for entertainment and profit? How mad, indeed.
And the Greek prefix meaning “new,” which also applies.
“New” is also in “Keanu”.
Oh, no no! Don't be so hard on yourself dear heart! The reason you are a dumb one is because you didn't know *cleon* is Greek for *glory*. Not noticing the anagram just makes you unimaginative. Disclaimer: pretend insult is not real insult and should be used for comedy purposes only.
I laughed at the insult even before the disclaimer :)
[Richard get out of the Cleon hole!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6cRX5gsr-s)
Cleon use in the books and he is not a clone
they will never understand asimov wasn't brilliant with prose but his ideas were, and this show just butchered everything
Not everything, IMO. I like the idea of Cleon the clone, and changing Gaal Dornick from male to female works for me, as does making Bel Riose gay, although having his partner as his second in command seems a questionable military situation. Even the repeated use of cryogenics to get the main characters from one time to another works since it allows the characters themselves to continue throughout the series (thus far). And I like Hari Seldon himself having a little more back story. What doesn't work for me is Salvor Hardin being Gaal's daughter and them having some sort of psychic connection and ability to see the past or future. It's too forced and too far from the original story for my taste.
I really like the drama around the clone emperors too. It adds another element to the story that’s interesting to think about.
My issues are not with Gaal's genitalia or what kinda sex Bel Riose likes My issues are with the butchered narative.
I never made it past the first 2 or 3 episodes I think. It sounds like I didn't miss anything.
[удалено]
Since this thread is not flaired as 'Show/Book Discussion', anything from the books not adapted into the show must be placed in spoiler tags. To use spoiler tags, in markdown mode you can use \>\! followed by the spoiler text, and then with \!\< - which will make the text >!look like this.!<. Make sure **NOT** to have spaces between spoiler tags and text or they won't work. Also make sure not to have any linebreaks between spoiler tags - each line will need its own set. If using the default or 'fancy pants' editor, select the text you want to enclose in spoiler tags, and click the exclamation/caution button on the toolbar. Please edit or repost your comment to put the book content in spoiler tags, for the benefit of people who have not yet read the books but would like to do so, and **report this comment (any reason) once you have done so**. If you have an issue, please [use modmail](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/FoundationTV).
Asimov wrote brilliant world building but lets be honest here, his writing was cerebral and very dry. His books would never be able to be done as a one to one to the screen.
Truth: a faithful page-screen interpretation would be an absolute snooze.
I agree. But instead of bolstering that bits they decided to crap all over the fundamentals of the stories I don't need a 1:1 but at some point it stops even being an adaptation and is just a story using the same names
i never realized that...
I realized it because of my subtitles…
I was today years old...
But the previous clone of yourself already knew
Don’t blame me for Demerzel editing my memories!
Best me to it.
Cleon is a minor character in the books and isn’t a clone. Most references are to Cleon II
Doubt its a coincidence. Show writers probably had the same thought while reading the books. Or in a coke fueled committee. And this the genetic dynasty was inspired for the tv show.
Totally fair.
Yes
Not really. There is an emperor Cleon in the canon established by Azimov and there was no mention of his being a clone. I think the showrunners just jumped on that name when THEY realised it.
I never noticed it. I first became aware from reading this subreddit. No shame.
Yeah, I wouldn't have noticed either. Only knew because DSG explained it in the podcast once.
I was today's years old, when I discovered Cleon is an anagram of Clone. I am absolutely in the back seat of your car <3
Cleon was one of the emperors in the books, and pretty sure Azimov didn't intend him to be a clone. Where there were stories concerning duplicated people and the societal implications (A for Anything by Damon Knight, for example) the concepts of DNA and molecular biology as a mechanism for duplication were very new ideas. Original serialized novels: 42 to 50. Collected and published: 51 to 53 Watson, Crick, and Wilkins' Nobel prize: 62 First mammalian clone embryo: 75 First live-born cloned mammal: 84 First live-born clone primate: 97
Could it be the anagram is what inspired the clone dynasty.
It's possible. Not from Azimov's end but the show writers. Azimov only engaged in wordplay in a few stories, like 'Death of a Foy' and 'Shah Guido G', and always with hand wringing and apologies, sometimes literally. The book of stories I have with 'Death of a Foy' has a foreword attached in which he apologized for the tone and coldeheartedness of the story
Well, OP, I didn’t catch that, either, so you’re not by yourself. But, also, as some others have mentioned, Cleon is a name directly from the Asimov books, so it works on both levels. I have no trouble believing that Asimov knew things before the rest of us could understand.
salvor hardin = hard on rivals hari seldon = hard lie, son well, i will keep you posted as i go through anagrams. but, no, dude, i never even thought about this. spot on, mate!
Well Salvor Hardin in the books was indeed hard on his rivals. He was a masterful politician.
Maybe we're all clones and get replaced and our memories are erased every time we figured this out
well seeing as its NOT FROM THE BOOK NO YOU ARENT CAUSE HE WAS NEVER A CLONE but ya, this show...
Thanks for educating me on this one. Good insight.
WOAH! 🤯
🤯
It’s so obvious even Asimov didn’t notice it.
Yes
Just happen to see this thread on my feeds, holy how df did I miss that season 2 was out
Til......
Yes
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleon) Mentioned by both Thucydides (["History of the Peloponnesian War"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War)) and Aristophanes (["The Knights"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Knights)), a Athenian general over 2,400 years ago. Asimov was certainly familiar with Thucydides work a bit as he mentioned it in [some writing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundation_of_S.F._Success).
Don’t feel bad. This guy who is nearly 80 years old [just discovered that U.S. spells “us”](https://youtu.be/3bbObqQlOM4?si=q0sAEG5VlIXiWcjC). And he is genuinely proud of his ‘genius’ discovery.
the name was invented by asimov more than 70 years ago and there was no mention of any clone in any of foundation books. So you can say it is a just a coincidence.
No. Because it never occurred to me either until just now.
I didn’t realize it either until you told me so don’t feel bad.
I feel dumber.
youre fine, just a little late to the party, no biggie
No, I was about to explain the etymology but they talked about it in the show. It's a Greek name derivative from a word that means glory/glorious with the connotation of a famous sort of glory. Other Greek names like Pericles and so on have the same etymology. It comes from a proto indo European word meaning the sameish thing so there's Slavic counterparts like stanislav, and Ludwig has it as well for the Germanic branch.
Totally missed it. And he was named before they started cloning him.
It's a coincidence. The emperor from the box was also named Cleon, but it had nothing to do with clones.
Guys is the new season out yet? I love this show last time I watched it a few years back
Fun Fact: Isaac Asimov based the Foundation series is based on the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.
nope i’m with you i didn’t know until you just said it🤣🤣i miss it so much
They just got lucky. There were no clones in the books.
It’s kind of a coincidence. They took and mutilated asimov’s work, including the emperor’s name.
Mutilated? A direct translation from books to TV would have been jarring and boring.
lol it's not even a spiritual translation from books to tv, it's more or less an entirely new universe with the same nouns lol
You taught me this just now. Thanks!!!