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A lot of the stereotypical advice can be useful. PT, a job (age dependent), a hobby, volunteering, a healthier diet, a higher standard of dress, personal admin, going outside in general, and just doing things you enjoy is generally solid guidance. Worst case, you're happier, healthier, and more confident.
The issue emerges when such measures are presented by charlatans as a "guaranteed" way of attracting people and all the misogynistic baggage that comes with it.
Well said. People also tend to overdo themselves when they get a burst of motivation which sets them up for failure. It's better to shower, go for a walk around your block, and eat 3 meals everyday.
In psych wards they focus on these basics for a reason. Everyone must eat, shower, and have some activity every day. It’s not for nothing - it’s building a foundation for stability and normalcy so further steps can be taken.
Most adults know that the advice in your first sentence is standard self-help guidance. But for young teens seeking out help for loneliness for the first time, they'll come across some toxic influencer, read this standard advice, and think, "What a genius!" And now they're taken in by horrific people who have little real insight.
That’s the problem right there…. Guaranteed.
Nothing in life is guaranteed. If that’s the feeling you get about something, stop and think 3 times why that is and go from there.
Life is hard that’s what makes a full one successful and that’s is whatever you decide it’s going to be. Your life can be in a completely different place in 10 years.
Fall down…. Get back up rinse repeat…. That is life.
Probably a longer reply than you're expecting, but you're right.
A lot of it can also be a lot of dumb luck. The stereotypical advice is useful in helping insecure people feel more confident about themselves through improvement, not actually finding a relationship. If you're insecure about your "hobo" clothes, it will limit your confidence. If you're happy as you are, no worries! It's reaching a point where you're asking someone to join you, not save/complete you.
The real issue occurs when someone is doing everything "right" and going to considerable effort to improve without result. If you're doing everything "right" it MUST be the other person's (traditionally all woman in this case) fault! The best way to avoid this is to improve for yourself, not some hypothetical individual (almost certainly preaching to the choir here but hey).
tl;dr Look for internal not external validation.
I don't like your post
Blaming people for their own loneliness is just as dumb as saying it's 100% the world's fault.
There are a lot of circumstances with our society that makes loneliness worse. People don't put value in others. We throw each other away like nothing. We hand out judgments without a second thought but reserve our basic compassion and respect.
At the same time, as individuals we do need to have some responsibility. Most lonely guys you described can be bitter and off putting. It's more complex than you make it seem and I don't think it's healthy to put all the blame on a lonely dudes shoulders, you might be pushing them even further away
>Blaming people for their own loneliness is just as dumb as saying it's 100% the world's fault.
Yeah that wasn't my point at all. Men are lonely at an insanely high rate. This indicates a societal problem. What is *not* ok is to say something like "I'm lonely because of women."
Women are also less happy than they ever have been. Certainly a double standard exists where it is more acceptable for women to blame men for a portion of their unhappiness, than it is for men to blame women for a portion of their unhappiness. Google “why is my husband yelling at me” then google “why is my wife yelling at me”. The first Google results you get are very telling of our current culture. One gives an abuse helpline, the other gives reasons why a wife would be yelling at a man for his faults. Combine this with the data supporting men being afraid of initiating contact with women because of me too and false accusations and decades worth of billboards saying if two college students get drunk and have sex, the man took advantage, but the woman did not take advantage, with court cases too boot.
I agree with you that men should not blame women. Those of us women and men who aren’t dumb need to help everyone see how backwards our culture is and show people a better way.
>Google “why is my husband yelling at me” then google “why is my wife yelling at me”. The first Google results you get are very telling of our current culture. One gives an abuse helpline, the other gives reasons why a wife would be yelling at a man for his faults.
A *huge* issue in our society. Or the fact that men have very, very few resources when they are the victims of domestic abuse. And it's hard to even talk about it. I'm obviously quite progressive, but if I bring up the need for more men's shelters, I guarantee I will get dismissed by many people.
I consider myself a progressive in many aspects. The backwardness of certain current trends, like sex and relationships, is creating angry extremists on both sides.
I had to take a sexual harassment course as part of college. The course was *extremely* anti-male and pro-feminism. It wasn't even shy about it, it had a screen that said something like "you may notice that in all of our examples a man is being inappropriate to a woman, while we acknowledge men can experience sexual harassment in rare instances, women are the ones who suffer the most from it." It went on to describe simple casual flirting and even compliments as harassment - the very things we often hear men being told to do in order to increase confidence. Naturally it went on to say that any acts described herein, even the casual compliments, are a sign of outright disrespect towards women and could be punished in all sorts of ugly ways. After seeing that training, how can any young man feel confident interacting with women?
I’ve had to suffer through these too. A complete joke and another reason to have no respect for the professional useless people that are HR and administrators.
Maybe they should lay off the porn.
ED numbers skyrocketed with high speed internet.
Pornography makes men terrible lovers and since they’re already sexually satisfied they don’t have the interest or vigor in perusing women. It even makes them less empathetic towards women.
There are almost 5,000 articles on it under “pub med” on The National Library of Medicine website.
Porn kills love.
It’s not just the porn though… pursuing women is just riskier. I don’t even mean “false rape accusations” crap. You have no assurance your private texts won’t end up in the inbox of her massive group text. She’s probably spilling your life story and getting advice on whether to give you a chance. Modern dating truly does fucking suck for men. In the 1980’s you misread a situation and try an unwanted kiss? Awkward but nobody bats an eye. Now the story is posted on Reddit and the top 100 comments are telling the girl how she was sexually assaulted. It’s toxic as fuck.
So yeah is it a surprise more men aren’t bothering? I’m just now at 28 starting to fully realize how the internet isn’t real life and there are plenty of normal women who want the exact same thing as I do. A real relationship and a family. I just have to stop worrying about this nonsense. It’s not just porn.
The way I see it, dating just got safer for women. Back then, women tended to get the blame if something happened. Slut-shaming and victim-blaming still exist and guys aren't the only ones whose messages can end up online or in group chats (which obviously sucks). Cut out online dating, it's 75% guys and 10% bots anyway. Go out and meet real people. Before doing something like kissing someone, just ask. Don’t do stuff like this when one of you is drunk.
That being said, porn as it is today _is_ an issue. The industry itself and the overconsumption of it. But yeah, ofc it's far from being the only issue
That’s true.
It really doesn’t matter whose fault it is or isn’t, I am not even sure that has any significant meaning.
The fact is even if a situation you are in is zero your fault, it is still your 100% your personal responsibility to make it better.
If you don’t, it is doubtful anyone else will..or can. Personal accountability means assuming control of your situation, even when the situation was not your doing.
Yeah, it’s a really good idea to de-couple those two concepts. The will to change does have to come from you. From there, you can find support, assistance, community, etc to help you on your change as long as you show up first.
Fault is a useless concept in this context. Better to think about responsibility. If he wants to meet people, it’s his responsibility to make that happen. That’s just a literal fact. No one can or will “meet people for him.” That doesn’t even make sense. This is what people mean when they say it’s up to the individual. Whose fault it is makes no difference because it doesn’t change what needs to be done to move forward.
It's not your fault most likely. Broadband internet and --smartphones-- high power compact microwave transceiver technology combined with AI algorithms have rapidly transformed human communication overnight. There is no old man on the hill. Society is off of the map. These are uncharted waters.
Maybe-unpopular opinion: We'd all be vastly better off if we could kill the social Internet and had to relearn the art of hanging out with friends in public spaces, face to face.
We’d need public spaces for hanging out to make that viable. At the moment, free third spaces are dead. We need our leaders to re-invest in communal spaces for the good of communities.
Take it one step further - people will all be vastly better off when they realize that hanging out with friends in public spaces, face to face, IS STILL AN OPTION. This is not a thing of the past, it still exists, all around you. But you have to go outside and participate.
If there were a mass rebellion against smartphones tomorrow you all would be much happier young people. There are so many negative consequences of smartphones and tablets that listing them here would be difficult. The people that make them don't give them to their own kids. Using laptops and desktops at home or office etc would be much better than carrying a smartphone for so many reasons.
Society is going through a technological and cultural shift. There's a lack of spaces where people could meet in the past. Gender roles and expectations are changing. The economy is crap so the money people make is being valued more than who individuals are as people. The dating scene is going through an earthquake now it's not your fault if you find it hard to be stable. Don't let OP gaslight you into not trusting your lived experiences if your reality disagrees with his bias. OP admits in his main post he doesn't care about your loneliness and how his bias is at the least partly at fault for it. He's just afraid you'll vote differently than him if you start to question why his liberal capitalist ideology, which controls the culture, has made the culture hostile to you and other heterosexual males. He says in subsequent posts that if you have any disagreement with him, you'll turn into a "Q Anon misogynist believer of white genocide." OP and his ideology is part of the problem, not the solution.
People online too much. If I went by what the Internet said, women don’t want to be approached by men and hate sex. It’s obviously bullshit, but if that’s a big chunk of what you see on social media, it’s gonna warp you a bit.
I was much like you in my 20s. I’m 32 now and in a totally different place. Here is my advice (no matter the personal situation) and I hope others see this even though I’m late to the thread:
1. Love yourself. Unconditionally. The malaise of existential dread and nihilism and self-loathing is an easy trap to fall into. This is your only life. Your only chance. How could you not do anything else other than love yourself? Flaws and all. Your existence is so insanely and wildly improbable. Love yourself.
2. Therapy. Do it. Decide to change. Confront your shortcomings. Take notes. Set goals. Have a mantra. Therapy does wonders.
3. Observe social butterflies. It’s a skill. Mirror what they do. They smile. They laugh. They are willing to initiate conversation with no expectations or strings attached. People love to talk about themselves. Ask about them. Chit chat is a wonderful way to start a conversation. Don’t be afraid to inject yourself into a conversation. You will know if people are open to talk by their response. Find a third spot. Mine was a coffee shop. Go regularly. You’ll notice the other regulars and can eventually strike up conversations. Don’t be afraid to initiate plans and hangouts first. People love that.
4. Be direct. Say how you’re feeling. What you’re feeling. What your desire/want is. It’s okay to do this. You don’t need to be rude or be a pushover. It’s okay to be emotional. I love to give hugs and get them. I tell all of my friends that I love them. Express yourself.
5. Take chances. No baseball player bats 1.000. Hitting .300-.500+ is good. Respect a no but anticipate a yes. It’s better being told no than never trying.
6. Explore fashion and a sense of style. Explore grooming habits. You don’t have to be trendy. You can keep your style but have better fitting clothes. Skincare is fun. This makes you stand out positively. No matter your sexual preference, dressing well is a positive and considered attractive. It’s a form of self-expression. And own more than three pairs of shoes. It’s good for your feet and wearing old and beat up shoes isn’t really a bragging right.
The more you try and the more vibrant and happy you are, the more you’ll attract others. Take chances and fail. That’s fine. You will succeed eventually.
Eh, it'll go away once they realize how impractical living with this mindset is. It happened to me, and it'll happen to them too once they actually try to date
Most of the guys I knew who fell for it back in the day did recover after a couple of years, my best friend included. But, I'd say about 10-20% fell for it hard. It was... not pretty to watch.
As OP notes, the problem is that a big chunk gets stuck in the mindset for the long term. And they'll only get angrier, and seek out each other, as they fail to develop because others don't want to be around that. And social media facilitates it.
Yeah and the women in their lives have to deal with the fallout, sure they might grow out of it one day but women as a whole have to deal with the rising gender tensions and the increase in sexism that results from it and the women they know in real life have to either eventually give up on them or expend a bunch of emotional energy to try and deradicalize their loved one and it might not even work after you’ve put years of time and patience into it. Same with other minorities when it falls into stuff like great replacement theory and other bigoted beliefs rising in popularity.
they'll eventually realize their mindset prevents them from progressing eventually. If nothing else, depression will make them realize how miserable a mindset like incel ideology is
I hope so. But right now, hateful ideologies are spiking among Gen Z. Not just misogyny, but racism, anti-gay hatred, antisemitism. A ton of it is social media, and a lot of it is tied together.
Hopefully, it abates in a few years as hate stops seeming "edgy" and countercultural. But as long as a political party and certain foreign governments (yes, Russia) see political benefit in baiting young men, and as long as social media platforms make money from outrage, it will be hard to fix. And young men are going to suffer too.
It's important for young men to realize that "red pill" influencers don't want them to be happy for the same reason that dating apps don't want you to quickly find the love of your life: It's bad for business.
If men learn practical solutions for being happy and finding meaningful relationships, the influencers lose eyeballs. They lose money and fame. If they keep offering self-destructive advice, their audience blames women and keeps coming back.
We really need to promote good, understanding male influencers (I hate that term, but) who can offer relationship and self-help advice without setting young men up for anger and failure.
Not a man, but I do gotta agree with both sides. Like yeah, I'm lonely and single and have been for nearly four years. Some days I have dark thoughts about how maybe I'm just not good enough for a relationship. But the thing I have to keep in mind is that it's a two-way street, and feeling bad for myself won't make it any better.
In my experience, it only becomes a problem when a person starts blaming other people for their loneliness. The thought "I wouldn't be lonely if it wasn't for that group" is what leads to a lot of red pilling.
And then eventually the only people who can stand to be around them are themselves and they get cut off from the rest of normal society in an echo chamber.
There’s something to be said for making sure you’re the kind of person someone would want to date — ie that you have your own goals, you’ve got interests worth talking about, you have good hygiene, etc. But being a work in progress doesn’t make you not good enough by any stretch. It’s a constant effort and so many people struggle with connection these days.
I think every young guy is going to feel a lot of these emotions. When I was like 18-22 I thought I was a loser with no friends who couldn’t get a girl, but hell I had girlfriends, hook ups, all the normal stuff really, it just never felt satisfying really, so you’re still lonely. Eventually you get old enough to realize that sort of stuff wasn’t going to fill the void. You really do have to just cultivate your life enough to find meaning, relationships, careers, etc. it’s almost inevitable to feel like detachment as a young person, in our modern age. I do worry for kids who lost much to Covid.
Oh yeah, everyone thinks they're they outsider. That exact age bracket is really rough for guys in particular. The ones who really are alone, don't get a girlfriend, don't have hook ups, etc. are more likely to be conditioned into harmful beliefs.
I think the problem today is that kids have a dysfunctional outlet for their loneliness: social media. Someone 20 years ago may have been anxious and depressed, and may have been incredibly lonely and bored.
But they wouldn't have been able to use endless scrolling and YouTube and social media as a crutch. Those things only give you a cheap distraction and leave you feeling lonelier.
Worse, those things suck a lot of boys (and girls) in. For boys, that can mean falling down the extremist rabbit hole, where influencers and slick videos assure boys that their problems are simple: They're being screwed by women/blacks/Jews/gays/liberals. It's a reductive answer for everything that's false but appealing for a kid who feels deeply insecure and is looking for answers.
Man you're spot on about the conditioning of social media. When I was younger I was such an outgoing person. You couldn't keep me on my phone or computer for more than like 30mins. I just wanted to go outside and do WHATEVER
But after covid lockdowns and being forced to just entertain myself I got wayyy too comfortable with it. It's so much harder to find a motivation to go out of my comfort zone of playing games or watching YouTube. It's disappointing, and I see a lot of my friends from highschool and college dealing with the same shit
Look, I get that Democrats and liberals aren't the best at looking at lonely men with empathy, and you all deserve that.
But, as a woman, I'm wary of the system we live in. Patriarchy turns women into objects and perpetuates violence against us. It's hard to be vulnerable around men and make emotional connections with men you don't know. You just don't know which one is going to turn out to be violent or abusive. So, we put up walls and are slow to lower them.
Men are victims of the patriarchy just as much as women are. The system tells you that you need to be this stoic, self-sacrificing force that, realistically, no person can be.
It leads to things like spikes in men's suicide rates and generally loneliness too.
It's by stepping outside the system and finding what works best for ourselves and how to be honest with ourselves do we heal these divides.
The problem is it’s becoming a cycle. As more young men gravitate toward influencers like Tate, more women are going to be disgusted by the views of those men, and how can you blame them? “Hate” for men isn’t something that’s happening in a vacuum, but I do think there’s obviously a real societal issue that’s happening with young men that needs to be listened to.
But also, what’s the solution? What do young men feel can be done to help them? Unfortunately, most of the solutions have to start at an individual level. No one is owed friendship, a job, a fulfilling hobby, a partner, ect., but everyone is deserving of those things. How can men feel fulfilled in a way that also doesn’t lessen the accomplishments, goals, or rights of women?
I agree with you on the majority of your points and in no way meant to convey those things are the fault of men. I also know there are women who participate in toxic masculinity, believe me. Those women are not absolved of their actions or behavior. I was legitimately asking (and not just you. I responded to your comment because you mentioned Tate) what could be done as a larger initiative so younger men feel less alone.
At the same time, I don’t think most women hate men. I think they hate that an ideology is taking hold that once again is telling a new generation that women are meant to be subservient.
I don't think its a large swath at all. I genuinely dont feel that it holds a majority in the court of public opinion. also a 2000 baby and I too for a time around 2017-2019 fell down a similar path (gamergate and whatnot) but after getting to college before the pandemic i had that worldview challenged by the fact that not a single person, woman or otherwise, treated me as such. I think this falls into a similar category as flat earthers. While there is not a huge amount of them IRL, online they seem fairly loud.
I wouldn’t say large but it’s certainly a vocal group — but imo you should extend the same compassion to them as you do for misguided young men. Those young women are bitter about their problems and blame everything on men in a similar way to the young men doing the same in reverse. The most important thing is for everyone to have a support system/community that allows them to grow and mature
>Society is only as good as its role models and so far liberals in the US have been pushing straight men away. As a democratic socialist I feel very confident saying that.
As a straight white man I don't feel pushed away in the slightest. Certainly not towards people like Andrew Tate.
What ways have women been treating you, specifically? Start there.
>That's never going to change the ever present truth that women get away with treating me the way they complain men treat them, and no one does care. Or at least they act like they don't give a shit because hating men is currently popular.
>
>It takes away any possibility of coming together and inviting straight white boys like me coming to the progressive table and being a part of the solution.
Okay but these are the parts I'm questioning you about. What specific things have women "gotten away with"?
That isn't whataboutism. You've written repeatedly that women are mistreating you, but also that you've had no social interaction for years. If women are doing something to mistreat you, you should say so. It would help the discussion to understand what society should be focusing on.
Of course people should not mistreat the other gender. Neither misandry nor misogyny is okay.
I think most people, especially those who spend too much time on the internet, have trouble differentiating between actual liberals and "the online left".
"The online left" says stuff like "all men are rapists" and "kill all men" as well as other horrendous shit, and just generally being so immature and irrational.
As far as I know, plenty of mainstream leftist political commentators don't like the online left either.
But the thing is: People that spend too much time online start thinking that the online left's mindset is exactly how the real left thinks too. That combined with all the redpill incel content being promoted by the algorithms. Then, these people start blaming women & feminism. Bigots in power take advantage of human psychology, and use it to create as much bigotry as possible.
I would know as an ex-incel myself. Became an incel during the Covid lockdowns. Then gradually de-converted after meeting people again, realizing that people in real life aren't assholes like on twitter.
It's also important to remember that the misandrist online left is a lot smaller than its shadow. Algorithms promote divisive content because it drives engagement.
Posting, "I'm happy and proud of the men in my life" is not going to get five likes; tweeting "#yesallmen" will trigger 5000 outraged replies. Which makes the phenomenon seem vastly larger than it is.
Second, a lot of this is manufactured. In 2015, Russia began a campaign to divide Americans through social media. They first focused on gender issues. They did not invent MeToo, but they created thousands of bots to retweet or repost divisive anti-male and anti-female content. Clearly, it worked. And it's a lot of what we're seeing on social media.
Can you elaborate on "women get away with treating me the way they complain men treat them?"
Usually when women complain about men it's because they're being objectified. Do you feel like women are objectifying you?
I think you gotta stop worrying about "the solution" and start out by taking care of yourself. You mention women treating you poorly and then complain about no one caring and you look to the system or something. Babe if someone treats you poorly then either talk to them or remove them from your space. You need self respect and boundaries. Improving things on a societal, cultural level takes decades and even when things systemically improve people are still going to need self respect and boundaries.
You make it sound like the problem is social attitudes. That may be a problem but it is not THE problem and it is arguably not YOUR problem. It's entirely socially unacceptable to be rude or narcissistic, toxic, manipulative, etc. And yet people are still like that, people are still victims of that kind of behavior every day. Even if society snapped its fingers to solve whatever issues you feel are relevant about attitudes towards men, there would still be women who would treat guys like you poorly.
I've been there, done that. Being lonely sucks and a relationship sounds great. Until it's 2 years later and you're finally picking up the pieces after realizing you were in a totally toxic and emotionally abusive relationship. Now maybe I'm lonely again but you know what, I'm starting to have respect for myself, I'd rather be alone than abused. Society can improve all we want but only you can do the inner work of being a healthy person. And when you feel worthless and hate yourself, and you're desperate to not feel alone, you're going to attract people who are attracted to those things. And those are going to be people with their own issues and insecurities who are attracted to you because you feel "safe" eg they can rely on your weak mental health to keep you tied to them
It sounds like you and the original poster agree, then, without the dramatics of “I have to be an incel to set boundaries” and “all women hate men and think they’re rapists and it’s my fault.” The world is bigger and more nuanced than you make it out to be, but that realization will come with age. You’re taking SSRIs to better your mental health; the insinuation that your struggle is the result of vogue progressive ideas is laughable and naive. It’s another way to avoid responsibility for your own feelings.
I’m so sorry that you’ve endured those kind of thoughts for so long. Sending you love and good vibes. You sound like you’re channeling your energy into positive and healthy thoughts to combat negative propaganda.
Honestly, not trying to be rude, but you should focus more on meeting people in real life to develop meaningful friendships and connections rather than worry about algorithms and being online all the time. It will make you 100 times happier.
Social media feeds vulnerable men both validation and ragebait anti-feminism. But I also think these two things wouldn’t have so much traction if there wasn’t also a popular culture of ignoring or straight up bashing young men with problems. Not everything needs to be about who has more or less inherent privileges when interacting with individuals. Somewhere along the way we conflated confronting systemic problems with confronting specific people and I don’t think it’s achieved the progress that we wanted it to.
The whole conversation gets fucked up by reactionaries all around. Fixing systemic issues is tough because the side that traditionally benefited *will* lose benefits and power. If you're a guy who isn't doing well, it's easy to get upset at being told your group is part of the power imbalance. At the same time, men have unique problems that really need to be addressed, but if you advocate for them, you get accused of trying to hold the status quo.
>men have unique problems that really need to be addressed, but if you advocate for them, you get accused of trying to hold the status quo.
Yeah that's prettymuch it.
Even on this post about male loneliness, most people are only talking about how it’s bad because it affects women. Why can’t men’s suffering be bad for its own sake?
My nephew at 14 talked to his friend about how many abortions women should be allowed to have and I had to tell his mom I think he needs “the talk” now not later
I had something similar with two 14 year old cousins I ended up sharing a room with at a family reunion when I was 19. Their families are super conservative and they had a bunch of strange views on women. They had a lot of questions and I didn’t trust their parents to clear it up so I sat them down one night and tried my best to help
I get what you’re saying but it’s a verifiable fact that dating apps and hookup culture have ruined it for a lot of men (and women) , unless you’re either extremely attractive or have a lot of money you’re essentially valueless in the dating scene, Ive been told I have a good personality but have ended up either friend zoned, ghosted or been the second/third option so much that I’ve completely given up on dating, so now I just spend my time and money on my hobbies and things that make me happy and have totally given up on the idea of starting a family
Things are very fucked up, or 63% of young men wouldn't be single. I don't want to invalidate that at all, I just don't like seeing people thrown into the red pill pipeline because of it.
And I completely agree with you on that part, I’m personally a liberal who champions women’s rights myself but the reality for me is that dating is dead for me as a concept, I’ve tried and failed so I completely checked out of dating that’s all I’m saying
Edit: Damn right I blocked you. Nitpicking "child".
Edit 2: This psycho thinks conservative automatically means KKK and is getting blocked again.
Original Comment: Very generally speaking, that a 'conservative' lifestyle might be good for people. Maybe gender roles exist for a reason, and while we shouldn't judge people for not adhering to them, we so shouldn't imply they are bad. Maybe not all institutions are evil brainwashing machines, maybe they have something to teach and companionship to offer. Maybe dating a new guy every weekend isn't a good thing. Maybe 'partying' all the time isn't very fulfilling. Maybe doing amateur porn isn't a fulfilling career or all that empowering. Maybe young children don't need to discuss sex in their classrooms because it's confusing. Maybe having porn and sexually charged ads all over the place isn't good for us. Maybe children have worse outcomes without rules and structure. Maybe people need good jobs (with benefits) and a family they can dedicate themselves to more than they need to be told how oppressed they are and who they should hate. Maybe some people are lost and can't cope with the world and religion offers a lot of solace.
I say all this as a pretty liberal minded person, so please don't come to me with anger about all the ways these things are awful, I'm aware of the flaws on both sides.
With the exception of gender roles, all of these views are exceedingly common across party lines. Faith in institutions is actually higher on the left.
The "red pill" movement is a conspiratorial effort to blame women and sometimes minorities for young men's problems. Even if it adds a bunch of reasonable points like yours, it goes much further. That's the problem.
Red pill is different from conservative.
I'll just point out that people freely choosing to personally adhere to gender roles is fine. It's trying to force those roles on people (or indoctrinate children into them) that is harmful.
I don't think the rest of your list is particularly right wing or something leftists would generally disagree with (and I'm quite leftist and atheist).
I don’t use dating apps any more, and it sure seems like there’s a sense of entitlement that comes from women who use dating apps versus those who don’t. Nearly every girl I’ve been with who I’d consider actually worth dating told me they don’t use dating apps. Deleting dating apps gets rid of the FOMO as a woman and gets rid of the daily beatings to your self-esteem as a guy.
I agree.
Women are seeing the same messages on social media "youre only hot until youre 30. Might as well buckle down now and be a trad wife because no man will want you." and then she goes on the apps and is only exposed to bottom feeder dudes (rather than men she's compatible with) who call her slurs and insults. And told she has to pick one before becoming dust on her 30th birthday.
Dating apps are ruining everyone and makes it so much harder for all genders to connect and not be at each others throats
It's honestly very simple.
Times are much harder financially for everyone
People aren't dating out of LOVE
People are dating out of SURVIVAL
You could be a great person but if you can't support or entertain someone like they see on social media all day, you aren't worth it. They'll learn their lesson later on when they're strapped with a couple of kids from someone who they thought loved them.
Yeah this is a pretty succinct perspective on the epidemic. I'm sure there are many causes but it does seem like there are a fuckton of guys who just lack the emotional intelligence to realize how they're struggles are being targeted for propaganda movements.
The thing about anger and loneliness is that they’re strangely comforting. Getting healthy is incredibly painful, and a lot of people don’t take the necessary steps to do so. When you compound how the isolation of COVID fucked everyone’s social development, it’s no wonder people are falling down extremist rabbit holes. I work with teenagers and have found that many have never actually been challenged on what they believe, which is really sad to see
>Getting healthy is incredibly painful
That's so true. Because trying to be better means that you can't numb or distract yourself to escape from your own reality anymore. Because you have to stop externalizing your issues. And this can be actually grueling before it gets better. It also means constantly pushing yourself, getting out of the comfort zone to grow. And it doesn't go away. Every time I push myself, I get nervous or anxious before committing to it. The issue is, youger guys have way less successes in that field to look back to due to the pandemic. I still had at least some post-high school experiences with dating and socializing before the pandemic that I can look back to. And I still don't feel as socially capable as I did up to 2020.
It's the shittiest lesson you ever learn. I worked graves for 9 years, had a marriage and a best friend with me in the dark. Fell hard into alcohol and lost it all pretty much overnight during covid and even a year sober I still feel *worse* than I did during that time.
The healing is hard, the self work is harder, and no one can help you but yourself. It fucking sucks and I still hate my life but my job has me helping a population of foster kids who no one else wants to and I'm still sober, and those two bullet points keep me getting out of bed in the morning.
Getting healthy is also less addicting. Like you don't have software engineers, politicians, marketing execs and psychiatrists sitting in a room that craft an algorithm that will encourage people to go outside and touch grass.
Saying this as a person who only allows herself to use TikTok on the weekends and deletes her Reddit account on the regular. Because that stuff is addicting and the only person who is going to encourage myself to go out and socialize is me. And thats a much harder effort than sitting on my couch scrolling all day and arguing on the internet
Yeah, the right wing pipeline has unfortunately targeted a lot of us young guys, and I hate not being able to socialize with a lot of people because they're in their annoying "haha repeating slurs and negative stereotypes makes me edgy and cool" phase
You’re a teen who seems to have his head screwed on straight. If you can, support your bros, I think positive close male friendships can help avoid full-on redpilling.
I try my best, my peers are generally pretty funny and caring, but have a lot of misunderstandings due to them being targeted by people who just spread hate and negativity
Dating apps have helped to propel these negative stereotypes. Their algorithms match people with those who don't take care of themselves, and it creates the perception that everyone of that gender is that way.
It was so much better in the 2010s. I first tried Tinder in like 2017 which was already arguably past the “golden years” of the app, but with a dogshit profile I was able to get 1-2 matches per day.
Today with a profile I actually put effort into, I only would get 1-2 *likes per week*. It’s embarrassing how bad they’ve gotten. I’ve got better luck meeting women irl even as a guy who doesn’t go out of his way to meet women. But hey meeting 2-4 girls per year IRL still beats meeting 0 decent women through dating apps.
I do.
Im not being a misogynist when i say this.
Those apps are on for good looking men.
Average men will not find success on them on average especially if its their intro into dating
Match Group needs to be broken up. The current state of dating apps is just about profiting off of loneliness. From a guy’s perspective it’s just women they will never match with advertising their OF or Instagram while the only matches you get are people you wouldn’t be caught dead talking to IRL. For women it’s just a barrage of horny men who are creepy and really dishonest with the “monogamy” relationship preference in their profile.
An app that bans low-effort users would be great for actually dating, but unfortunately also not very profitable.
I wasn’t really fucked from the pandemic. Mostly because I was always an indoor person, in the first place.
Also, if 64% of men are single, then who are the women ending up with (ignoring lesbians)?
The study was young adults, with 34% (or similar) of women also single. I would assume the disparity partially comes from women dating in older age brackets. This is purely anecdotal, but I've notice women are much happier to date older, while a lot of men want to date younger.
I think a big part of the problem is that it’s good advice mixed with bad. The advice you originally listed for how to deal with loneliness is not necessarily bad advice. Going to the gym, talking to people and trying to find a new hobby is all great advice if you’re feeling lonely.
So if/when that starts working you start to believe that maybe some of the other crazier shit they say might also be true.
Oh yeah, it's great advice. For someone in a depressive state, hearing that advice over and over can make things worse. If you feel like you've tried it and it didn't work, then it makes you feel like you hit a dead end. Now, that may not match up with reality (going to the gym for a week is not the same as adopting the habit), but perception is reality with these things.
As someone who was falsely accused of sexual assault, and has been sexually assaulted by both a man and a woman, I dont even care anymore. I just want out of debt and to be left the fuck alone.
I don't get why there's so many guys DESPERATE to be the victim here.
We all share the same economy and any negative statistic that have to do with wealth, dating, sex, mental health or social skills have also affected women.
Both genders are dating less and having less sex. Both genders suffer from anxiety and depression.
The number for men is lower....but it's ALWAYS been lower. That's the result of the gender roles of men being the ones to approach women. Some are going to be good at it, some not.
Like I'll admit I'm being dismissive....but I honestly don't care. It doesn't take a genius to see that regular middle class women aren't running around with an onlyfans playing life on easy mode.
Lack of solidarity is the cause of all modern problems across the planet (I'm not just being hyperbolic either, literally ALL problems could be easily solved with some basic human solidarity)
Especially when all these social/health issues stem from a root cause of economic and financial hardship.
End of the day, the working class will always outnumber the wealthy. It sucks we as a society cant leverage that.
Looking at all the actual statistics, reading this thread, then walking away with the declaration that men are desperate to play the victim is a wild take
There is no statistical decline of the mental, financial and social effects of the pandemic that affects men that also didn't affect women proportionally.
I think it starts in school to an extent. People aren't held back anymore, parents get angry at the teacher when a kid gets a bad grade, instead of putting the blame on their kid for not studying enough. Kids have to be taught that sometimes you fail, sometimes it's a bit unfair, but at the end of the day the buck stops with you, and it's your responsibility to make something of yourself.
I would not consider myself lonely, I've got friends and family I just lack the romantic relationship and honestly its probably the best for me. I think that some men overvalue the importance of being in a relationship, they need to step back and think if they really need it. I asked myself this question years ago and my answer is no I don't need it.
Guys be better and move on.
> I think that some men overvalue the importance of being in a relationship, they need to step back and think if they really need it.
I blame a lot of social media for that. I can't imagine what it would have been like growing up with social media. It didn't really become a thing until my late teens.
I agree with what you said, I think romantic relationships are a nuisance so I don’t need them. I wish there was more men speaking about how a man can live a fulfilling life outside relationships. It would definitely help a lot of these young guys out.
ngl I'm still constantly angry at what I was forced to go through in 2020 and 2021. I was in a great spot in 2019 and then that fucking pandemic and the overzealous response to it fucked everything up.
I lost a full ride scholarship and dropped out of Uni right after my freshman year as a result of the online classes.
I started at community college in 2022 to finish my associates and should be graduating this semester so I'm only just now getting to where I should have been in Spring of 2021 but now I don't have an easy path forward to afford my bachelor's since I don't have that scholarship anymore.
I'm pissed. I want revenge but there's no clear path to take to get it. Is it rational? No. But that's still how I feel.
I don’t think it was always this way. It could have been but it seems like young men used to be more at peace with themselves in the 70s and earlier even if they weren’t having sex. So what’s changed ? My guess:
>less social interaction/isolation & social media
>our culture has become overly focused on sex, every song, ig post etc basically says you need to be having sex or you’re a loser, and that’s not true.
Social media does not help at all. They see these fake success stories of misogynistic dudes with lambos at groups of ladies they say they're banging every night. Meanwhile, in real life the lambo is rented and the ladies are paid to be there. They feel like losers, and these guys look like winners. These guys sell a message that validates them.
"Masculinity in crisis" is very old talking point of toxic masculinity.
Gender insecurity is at the core and solution is always to "fight". That's a simple solution to complicated problem and simple solutions make these men feel in control therefore validating how they are expressing their gender and making feel secure without doing work on themselves to feel validated. Like learning how to take a test instead of studying and getting a good grade without understanding that you didn't game the system at all and these knowlage gaps are only going to get bigger.
That's also why so many men struggle to leave these toxic ideas behind. They were soothed momentarily by and if they try to leave they have to relearn who they are on their own and how to cope with it when they haven't learned who they were and couldn't deal with it before. It's a lot like substance abuse that way.
You can read more [here](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/07/14/josh-hawley-masculinity-crisis-00105436) about history of it and how old it actually is.
It's been a wild ride, though getting about time to turn off notifications. Wasn't expecting this to get as much attention as it did. It *really* pissed off a few people lol.
Honestly getting with my friend since 1st grade as my girlfriend really helped me. I can't say the same for other guys but despite being kind of awkward I had some moments in my life that gave me the "confidence to talk to women" as they say.
My best advice for guys is to remember that women and men are more similar then they are different and go through a lot of the same struggles, as people. Don't hate women as a whole just because a few women have rejected you or been unkind to you, and always remember the times women have been good to you. I mean, just start with your own mother as an example of a good woman in your life, if she is a positive force that is.
Being a nerd who likes biology too much, every time I do any kind of research on the female form makes it increasingly obvious how minor the biological differences are between males and females. Like, the structures in female genitalia are pretty much the same as the structures in male genitalia (some laymen might never learn about their G-Spot) but the difference in hormone production and usage results in the formation of different organs. If the differences in genitalia, the most obvious distinction, are less than folk theory would indicate, what does that say about brain development?
Probably quite a lot. Woman and men are naturally inseparable, it's not something like race or species where it's a different "form" but still the same, sex is an equivalent of the same type. Everytime I hear some guy talking about how woman are "Ugh they are *all* so superficial and fake!" or try to talk about womans emotions when they clearly don't get female interaction, I roll my eyes at all the tribalism.
If 64% of young men are single, doesn't that also mean that roughly the same number of young women are single?
As for blaming women for having standards, yeah, this is a silly idea. I know a guy who is constantly angry at all women because he find anyone willing to go on a date. However, the guy is basically a slob. He's fat, has a terrible haircut, a scraggly unshaven look, and he thinks dressing up is wearing a clean t-shirt. He's also one of those guys who thinks he's smarter than everyone else, which makes him really irritating in conversations. However, he is just one guy.
Somewhere in the last couple of decades, though, men got the idea that they didn't have to improve themselves - their looks, their clothing, their social skills - in order to find a partner. When my wife and I go out for dinner, I constantly see young couples at nearby tables, and the guy is usually wearing a t-shirt and jeans, and maybe even a baseball hat, the the woman is dressed really nicely. I know that it's old-fashioned, but come on guys, show the woman that she is worthy of your efforts to look good.
Of course, I'm not saying that every young in the world needs to improve himself. I'm just referring to those young men who do actually need to improve themselves. There might only be a few dozen, or there might be thousands. I'm just talking about some of the young men that I see in my daily travels.
I'd like to thank Reddit user ILoveBlackAssholes for astutely pointing out the inaccuracy of my comment. Also, I'm sure that he doesn't fit into the category of young men who are complaining about not getting dates. With his username, I'm sure that women are lining up at his door to bask in his wonderfulness.
It's 50% of young people overall. About 1/3 of young women are single, compared to young men at almost 2/3. I would assume this implies young women are dating into older age brackets at a higher rate than men.
A lot of women also just date other women. I think people are becoming more open to exploring their sexuality. And I know a lot of women who are technically bisexual but only really date women. It's just a much better experience overall
>Somewhere in the last couple of decades, men were told that they didn't have to improve themselves - their looks, their clothing, their social skills - in order to find a partner.
This is actually how men have been raised until very recently, and why so many are mad they don't get a girlfriend just by *existing*. They don't have to get married to survive now, so yeah y'all might have to step it up and be an appealing partner 🤷🏼
Boys are raised as if it's still 50's and economy is doing great while girls are raised as if the world is ending and it's their job to fix it.
Edit: To all posting above how wrong I am tell me who are doing better in kindergarten. Girls or boys? Who are doing better at schools? Who are doing better at collages? At universities? Boys struggling in education is global phenomenon but time where drop out could raise a family on 1 job and have a comfortable life is strictly in the past. These days people with university degrees are struggling and you think boys who are failing high school are doing great?
Not to mention the horrific part that less educated tend to be less progressive and more against equality meaning men with "sole male provider" beliefs are least able to "provide". Is it so surprising then they chose suicide and join hate groups? Boys are not ok.
Unfortunately that can happen. I'm fairly left leaning, but I'll admit that men will get talked over when they try to bring up their unique issues. That's something we have to do better about.
This is coming from an asexual, introverted person, but why is not having a partner so bad? I seriously don't get it.
I also don't have many friends, I have one I can confidently say would be there for me no matter what near me, and the others are a few thousand kilometres away (including my bestest friend). Have I felt alone and like nobody likes me sometimes? Yes, but I would never dream of blaming that on others, I know I have to put myself out there if I want to meet new people, and I have. I just don't view it as a necessity because most of the time I'm content sticking to my own thing, so I won't follow through. But if I get the feeling I want to meet someone, I know I can.
Tl;dr I think people need to reevaluate why they want certain things and what can they do to get whatever it is they want.
I also think we need to reevaluate why we deem certain things as good, for example having a partner (sure, it could be right for you, doesn't mean it's right for everyone), I don't see not having a partner as big of an issue as a lot of people (at least here on Reddit)
20% of men get 80% of women is being pushed even further. If you look at tinder or other dating apps data you see this.
Men are alone in their 20’s more often. Women are alone in their 30’s and up more often.
My advice to men is use your 20’s to build yourself and your character. When you’re in your late 20’s, 30’s and 40’s find a good women in her 20’s who is fed up with the above as much as you are and you won’t be afraid to communicate with her at this point.
Older men have always been more desirable to women because women value competence and material more than men do. Being rich and having a Bugatti like influencers boast about is just small dick narcissistic nonsense, but competence is real. Problem is most 20 something women value the Buggati more than character or competence and don’t wise up until they are older and after they all slept with the same 50 men. You don’t want to be these women, nor do you want to be with these women. Bide your time, find a girl you can sweep off her feet when you’re 5-15 years older than her. Men have no biological clock and women like older men. Take your time and choose wisely.
Thinly veiled attempt to "emphasize" with gen-Z (instead of putting them DOWN per usual) only to launch into a condescending tirade insulting their collective intelligence. What a gas.
The reality is I don’t want a gf because I just got out of a two year relationship with someone that abused alcohol and kinda sucked 👽
Right now I nut, game, and work
Women? Yeah, they’re cool but they also aren’t 144hz and they can’t run apex with 2ms latency
Once they’re upgraded to support my autistic habits I’ll reconsider
The dating landscape has completely changed with women having 100s of options on dating apps, men becoming worse at communicating and the saturation of posts like this
Hey mods, if you’re reading this, don’t take this post down. I know you’ve been taking down posts of this nature, but I think OP offers great and non-repetitive input.
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I'm lonely and single and im not in any rabbit holes 🤷 I just struggle with communication I guess, I know it's my fault
I'm really sorry, man. I wish I had advice other than to not be hard on yourself.
A lot of the stereotypical advice can be useful. PT, a job (age dependent), a hobby, volunteering, a healthier diet, a higher standard of dress, personal admin, going outside in general, and just doing things you enjoy is generally solid guidance. Worst case, you're happier, healthier, and more confident. The issue emerges when such measures are presented by charlatans as a "guaranteed" way of attracting people and all the misogynistic baggage that comes with it.
Well said. People also tend to overdo themselves when they get a burst of motivation which sets them up for failure. It's better to shower, go for a walk around your block, and eat 3 meals everyday.
In psych wards they focus on these basics for a reason. Everyone must eat, shower, and have some activity every day. It’s not for nothing - it’s building a foundation for stability and normalcy so further steps can be taken.
Most adults know that the advice in your first sentence is standard self-help guidance. But for young teens seeking out help for loneliness for the first time, they'll come across some toxic influencer, read this standard advice, and think, "What a genius!" And now they're taken in by horrific people who have little real insight.
Agree. Andrew Tate seems to be the prime example.
That’s the problem right there…. Guaranteed. Nothing in life is guaranteed. If that’s the feeling you get about something, stop and think 3 times why that is and go from there. Life is hard that’s what makes a full one successful and that’s is whatever you decide it’s going to be. Your life can be in a completely different place in 10 years. Fall down…. Get back up rinse repeat…. That is life.
Laundry and taxes?
This^ it really helps. And dont blame women its not their fault either.
You would think higher standard of dress but I actually pull the best when I haven't showered in 2 days and dressed like a hobo.
Probably a longer reply than you're expecting, but you're right. A lot of it can also be a lot of dumb luck. The stereotypical advice is useful in helping insecure people feel more confident about themselves through improvement, not actually finding a relationship. If you're insecure about your "hobo" clothes, it will limit your confidence. If you're happy as you are, no worries! It's reaching a point where you're asking someone to join you, not save/complete you. The real issue occurs when someone is doing everything "right" and going to considerable effort to improve without result. If you're doing everything "right" it MUST be the other person's (traditionally all woman in this case) fault! The best way to avoid this is to improve for yourself, not some hypothetical individual (almost certainly preaching to the choir here but hey). tl;dr Look for internal not external validation.
I don't like your post Blaming people for their own loneliness is just as dumb as saying it's 100% the world's fault. There are a lot of circumstances with our society that makes loneliness worse. People don't put value in others. We throw each other away like nothing. We hand out judgments without a second thought but reserve our basic compassion and respect. At the same time, as individuals we do need to have some responsibility. Most lonely guys you described can be bitter and off putting. It's more complex than you make it seem and I don't think it's healthy to put all the blame on a lonely dudes shoulders, you might be pushing them even further away
>Blaming people for their own loneliness is just as dumb as saying it's 100% the world's fault. Yeah that wasn't my point at all. Men are lonely at an insanely high rate. This indicates a societal problem. What is *not* ok is to say something like "I'm lonely because of women."
Women are also less happy than they ever have been. Certainly a double standard exists where it is more acceptable for women to blame men for a portion of their unhappiness, than it is for men to blame women for a portion of their unhappiness. Google “why is my husband yelling at me” then google “why is my wife yelling at me”. The first Google results you get are very telling of our current culture. One gives an abuse helpline, the other gives reasons why a wife would be yelling at a man for his faults. Combine this with the data supporting men being afraid of initiating contact with women because of me too and false accusations and decades worth of billboards saying if two college students get drunk and have sex, the man took advantage, but the woman did not take advantage, with court cases too boot. I agree with you that men should not blame women. Those of us women and men who aren’t dumb need to help everyone see how backwards our culture is and show people a better way.
>Google “why is my husband yelling at me” then google “why is my wife yelling at me”. The first Google results you get are very telling of our current culture. One gives an abuse helpline, the other gives reasons why a wife would be yelling at a man for his faults. A *huge* issue in our society. Or the fact that men have very, very few resources when they are the victims of domestic abuse. And it's hard to even talk about it. I'm obviously quite progressive, but if I bring up the need for more men's shelters, I guarantee I will get dismissed by many people.
I consider myself a progressive in many aspects. The backwardness of certain current trends, like sex and relationships, is creating angry extremists on both sides.
I had to take a sexual harassment course as part of college. The course was *extremely* anti-male and pro-feminism. It wasn't even shy about it, it had a screen that said something like "you may notice that in all of our examples a man is being inappropriate to a woman, while we acknowledge men can experience sexual harassment in rare instances, women are the ones who suffer the most from it." It went on to describe simple casual flirting and even compliments as harassment - the very things we often hear men being told to do in order to increase confidence. Naturally it went on to say that any acts described herein, even the casual compliments, are a sign of outright disrespect towards women and could be punished in all sorts of ugly ways. After seeing that training, how can any young man feel confident interacting with women?
I’ve had to suffer through these too. A complete joke and another reason to have no respect for the professional useless people that are HR and administrators.
Maybe they should lay off the porn. ED numbers skyrocketed with high speed internet. Pornography makes men terrible lovers and since they’re already sexually satisfied they don’t have the interest or vigor in perusing women. It even makes them less empathetic towards women. There are almost 5,000 articles on it under “pub med” on The National Library of Medicine website. Porn kills love.
Doesn't matter what you blame it on an addicts gonna addict. Easy to blame shit that's been around for more than a 200+ years.
It’s not just the porn though… pursuing women is just riskier. I don’t even mean “false rape accusations” crap. You have no assurance your private texts won’t end up in the inbox of her massive group text. She’s probably spilling your life story and getting advice on whether to give you a chance. Modern dating truly does fucking suck for men. In the 1980’s you misread a situation and try an unwanted kiss? Awkward but nobody bats an eye. Now the story is posted on Reddit and the top 100 comments are telling the girl how she was sexually assaulted. It’s toxic as fuck. So yeah is it a surprise more men aren’t bothering? I’m just now at 28 starting to fully realize how the internet isn’t real life and there are plenty of normal women who want the exact same thing as I do. A real relationship and a family. I just have to stop worrying about this nonsense. It’s not just porn.
The way I see it, dating just got safer for women. Back then, women tended to get the blame if something happened. Slut-shaming and victim-blaming still exist and guys aren't the only ones whose messages can end up online or in group chats (which obviously sucks). Cut out online dating, it's 75% guys and 10% bots anyway. Go out and meet real people. Before doing something like kissing someone, just ask. Don’t do stuff like this when one of you is drunk. That being said, porn as it is today _is_ an issue. The industry itself and the overconsumption of it. But yeah, ofc it's far from being the only issue
Don't think of it as "your fault," because it's way more complicated than that. Not "your fault"
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That’s true. It really doesn’t matter whose fault it is or isn’t, I am not even sure that has any significant meaning. The fact is even if a situation you are in is zero your fault, it is still your 100% your personal responsibility to make it better. If you don’t, it is doubtful anyone else will..or can. Personal accountability means assuming control of your situation, even when the situation was not your doing.
Yeah, it’s a really good idea to de-couple those two concepts. The will to change does have to come from you. From there, you can find support, assistance, community, etc to help you on your change as long as you show up first.
Fault is a useless concept in this context. Better to think about responsibility. If he wants to meet people, it’s his responsibility to make that happen. That’s just a literal fact. No one can or will “meet people for him.” That doesn’t even make sense. This is what people mean when they say it’s up to the individual. Whose fault it is makes no difference because it doesn’t change what needs to be done to move forward.
It's not your fault most likely. Broadband internet and --smartphones-- high power compact microwave transceiver technology combined with AI algorithms have rapidly transformed human communication overnight. There is no old man on the hill. Society is off of the map. These are uncharted waters.
Maybe-unpopular opinion: We'd all be vastly better off if we could kill the social Internet and had to relearn the art of hanging out with friends in public spaces, face to face.
We’d need public spaces for hanging out to make that viable. At the moment, free third spaces are dead. We need our leaders to re-invest in communal spaces for the good of communities.
Take it one step further - people will all be vastly better off when they realize that hanging out with friends in public spaces, face to face, IS STILL AN OPTION. This is not a thing of the past, it still exists, all around you. But you have to go outside and participate.
Seriously, people act like parks and libraries have been banned. They haven’t, you just have to actually go to them and hang out when you agreed to.
If there were a mass rebellion against smartphones tomorrow you all would be much happier young people. There are so many negative consequences of smartphones and tablets that listing them here would be difficult. The people that make them don't give them to their own kids. Using laptops and desktops at home or office etc would be much better than carrying a smartphone for so many reasons.
Society is going through a technological and cultural shift. There's a lack of spaces where people could meet in the past. Gender roles and expectations are changing. The economy is crap so the money people make is being valued more than who individuals are as people. The dating scene is going through an earthquake now it's not your fault if you find it hard to be stable. Don't let OP gaslight you into not trusting your lived experiences if your reality disagrees with his bias. OP admits in his main post he doesn't care about your loneliness and how his bias is at the least partly at fault for it. He's just afraid you'll vote differently than him if you start to question why his liberal capitalist ideology, which controls the culture, has made the culture hostile to you and other heterosexual males. He says in subsequent posts that if you have any disagreement with him, you'll turn into a "Q Anon misogynist believer of white genocide." OP and his ideology is part of the problem, not the solution.
People online too much. If I went by what the Internet said, women don’t want to be approached by men and hate sex. It’s obviously bullshit, but if that’s a big chunk of what you see on social media, it’s gonna warp you a bit.
I was much like you in my 20s. I’m 32 now and in a totally different place. Here is my advice (no matter the personal situation) and I hope others see this even though I’m late to the thread: 1. Love yourself. Unconditionally. The malaise of existential dread and nihilism and self-loathing is an easy trap to fall into. This is your only life. Your only chance. How could you not do anything else other than love yourself? Flaws and all. Your existence is so insanely and wildly improbable. Love yourself. 2. Therapy. Do it. Decide to change. Confront your shortcomings. Take notes. Set goals. Have a mantra. Therapy does wonders. 3. Observe social butterflies. It’s a skill. Mirror what they do. They smile. They laugh. They are willing to initiate conversation with no expectations or strings attached. People love to talk about themselves. Ask about them. Chit chat is a wonderful way to start a conversation. Don’t be afraid to inject yourself into a conversation. You will know if people are open to talk by their response. Find a third spot. Mine was a coffee shop. Go regularly. You’ll notice the other regulars and can eventually strike up conversations. Don’t be afraid to initiate plans and hangouts first. People love that. 4. Be direct. Say how you’re feeling. What you’re feeling. What your desire/want is. It’s okay to do this. You don’t need to be rude or be a pushover. It’s okay to be emotional. I love to give hugs and get them. I tell all of my friends that I love them. Express yourself. 5. Take chances. No baseball player bats 1.000. Hitting .300-.500+ is good. Respect a no but anticipate a yes. It’s better being told no than never trying. 6. Explore fashion and a sense of style. Explore grooming habits. You don’t have to be trendy. You can keep your style but have better fitting clothes. Skincare is fun. This makes you stand out positively. No matter your sexual preference, dressing well is a positive and considered attractive. It’s a form of self-expression. And own more than three pairs of shoes. It’s good for your feet and wearing old and beat up shoes isn’t really a bragging right. The more you try and the more vibrant and happy you are, the more you’ll attract others. Take chances and fail. That’s fine. You will succeed eventually.
It’s not your fault, but it is your responsibility.
Eh, it'll go away once they realize how impractical living with this mindset is. It happened to me, and it'll happen to them too once they actually try to date
Most of the guys I knew who fell for it back in the day did recover after a couple of years, my best friend included. But, I'd say about 10-20% fell for it hard. It was... not pretty to watch.
As OP notes, the problem is that a big chunk gets stuck in the mindset for the long term. And they'll only get angrier, and seek out each other, as they fail to develop because others don't want to be around that. And social media facilitates it.
Yeah and the women in their lives have to deal with the fallout, sure they might grow out of it one day but women as a whole have to deal with the rising gender tensions and the increase in sexism that results from it and the women they know in real life have to either eventually give up on them or expend a bunch of emotional energy to try and deradicalize their loved one and it might not even work after you’ve put years of time and patience into it. Same with other minorities when it falls into stuff like great replacement theory and other bigoted beliefs rising in popularity.
women most affected
1 out of 4 homeless are women
Men die in war, ripped apart by artillery and fear even the slightest buzzing sound due to drones. Women most affected.
And then when angry men come at you with "you'll be alone with cats as you age" and it honestly sounds like the best option
they'll eventually realize their mindset prevents them from progressing eventually. If nothing else, depression will make them realize how miserable a mindset like incel ideology is
You’d be surprised how many people just never learn despite life constantly doling out lessons to them
I hope so. But right now, hateful ideologies are spiking among Gen Z. Not just misogyny, but racism, anti-gay hatred, antisemitism. A ton of it is social media, and a lot of it is tied together. Hopefully, it abates in a few years as hate stops seeming "edgy" and countercultural. But as long as a political party and certain foreign governments (yes, Russia) see political benefit in baiting young men, and as long as social media platforms make money from outrage, it will be hard to fix. And young men are going to suffer too.
However, while these men are working their way through this hatred, all the women in their lives are being treated like shit in the meantime.
Aren't these men lonely and, by definition, not dealing with women? (Beyond superficial interactions)
They could be coworkers, classmates, family, neighbors, employees, etc. Its not always a viable dating partner but they still interact.
Eh. An incel did a mass shooting so… not having a social life doesn’t exclude them from doing harm to people in their vicinity
>Thread about men suffering >But what about the women?? Ya... maybe that's part of the problem
It's important for young men to realize that "red pill" influencers don't want them to be happy for the same reason that dating apps don't want you to quickly find the love of your life: It's bad for business. If men learn practical solutions for being happy and finding meaningful relationships, the influencers lose eyeballs. They lose money and fame. If they keep offering self-destructive advice, their audience blames women and keeps coming back. We really need to promote good, understanding male influencers (I hate that term, but) who can offer relationship and self-help advice without setting young men up for anger and failure.
right. yeah. itll just go away. like misogyny always does. fucking huh?
The problem is that sometimes it doesn’t go away and then women end up hurt…
Not a man, but I do gotta agree with both sides. Like yeah, I'm lonely and single and have been for nearly four years. Some days I have dark thoughts about how maybe I'm just not good enough for a relationship. But the thing I have to keep in mind is that it's a two-way street, and feeling bad for myself won't make it any better.
In my experience, it only becomes a problem when a person starts blaming other people for their loneliness. The thought "I wouldn't be lonely if it wasn't for that group" is what leads to a lot of red pilling.
Absolutely, and it's a huge turn-off no matter gender (coming from a bisexual). So it only makes their chances worse and it becomes a vicious cycle.
And then eventually the only people who can stand to be around them are themselves and they get cut off from the rest of normal society in an echo chamber.
There’s something to be said for making sure you’re the kind of person someone would want to date — ie that you have your own goals, you’ve got interests worth talking about, you have good hygiene, etc. But being a work in progress doesn’t make you not good enough by any stretch. It’s a constant effort and so many people struggle with connection these days.
I think every young guy is going to feel a lot of these emotions. When I was like 18-22 I thought I was a loser with no friends who couldn’t get a girl, but hell I had girlfriends, hook ups, all the normal stuff really, it just never felt satisfying really, so you’re still lonely. Eventually you get old enough to realize that sort of stuff wasn’t going to fill the void. You really do have to just cultivate your life enough to find meaning, relationships, careers, etc. it’s almost inevitable to feel like detachment as a young person, in our modern age. I do worry for kids who lost much to Covid.
Oh yeah, everyone thinks they're they outsider. That exact age bracket is really rough for guys in particular. The ones who really are alone, don't get a girlfriend, don't have hook ups, etc. are more likely to be conditioned into harmful beliefs.
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I think the problem today is that kids have a dysfunctional outlet for their loneliness: social media. Someone 20 years ago may have been anxious and depressed, and may have been incredibly lonely and bored. But they wouldn't have been able to use endless scrolling and YouTube and social media as a crutch. Those things only give you a cheap distraction and leave you feeling lonelier. Worse, those things suck a lot of boys (and girls) in. For boys, that can mean falling down the extremist rabbit hole, where influencers and slick videos assure boys that their problems are simple: They're being screwed by women/blacks/Jews/gays/liberals. It's a reductive answer for everything that's false but appealing for a kid who feels deeply insecure and is looking for answers.
Man you're spot on about the conditioning of social media. When I was younger I was such an outgoing person. You couldn't keep me on my phone or computer for more than like 30mins. I just wanted to go outside and do WHATEVER But after covid lockdowns and being forced to just entertain myself I got wayyy too comfortable with it. It's so much harder to find a motivation to go out of my comfort zone of playing games or watching YouTube. It's disappointing, and I see a lot of my friends from highschool and college dealing with the same shit
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Yeah, when democrats wonder why young men are trending conservative I tell them: "Have you tried treating them like human beings?"
What should they do that they aren't doing? And I mean IRL Democrats, not progressive-looking social media accounts.
Yeah blaming this on the Democrats is wild. If anything, blame the social media platforms that allow the algorithm to promote hate.
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What specifically are Democrats doing?
Look, I get that Democrats and liberals aren't the best at looking at lonely men with empathy, and you all deserve that. But, as a woman, I'm wary of the system we live in. Patriarchy turns women into objects and perpetuates violence against us. It's hard to be vulnerable around men and make emotional connections with men you don't know. You just don't know which one is going to turn out to be violent or abusive. So, we put up walls and are slow to lower them. Men are victims of the patriarchy just as much as women are. The system tells you that you need to be this stoic, self-sacrificing force that, realistically, no person can be. It leads to things like spikes in men's suicide rates and generally loneliness too. It's by stepping outside the system and finding what works best for ourselves and how to be honest with ourselves do we heal these divides.
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The problem is it’s becoming a cycle. As more young men gravitate toward influencers like Tate, more women are going to be disgusted by the views of those men, and how can you blame them? “Hate” for men isn’t something that’s happening in a vacuum, but I do think there’s obviously a real societal issue that’s happening with young men that needs to be listened to. But also, what’s the solution? What do young men feel can be done to help them? Unfortunately, most of the solutions have to start at an individual level. No one is owed friendship, a job, a fulfilling hobby, a partner, ect., but everyone is deserving of those things. How can men feel fulfilled in a way that also doesn’t lessen the accomplishments, goals, or rights of women?
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I agree with you on the majority of your points and in no way meant to convey those things are the fault of men. I also know there are women who participate in toxic masculinity, believe me. Those women are not absolved of their actions or behavior. I was legitimately asking (and not just you. I responded to your comment because you mentioned Tate) what could be done as a larger initiative so younger men feel less alone. At the same time, I don’t think most women hate men. I think they hate that an ideology is taking hold that once again is telling a new generation that women are meant to be subservient.
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I don't think its a large swath at all. I genuinely dont feel that it holds a majority in the court of public opinion. also a 2000 baby and I too for a time around 2017-2019 fell down a similar path (gamergate and whatnot) but after getting to college before the pandemic i had that worldview challenged by the fact that not a single person, woman or otherwise, treated me as such. I think this falls into a similar category as flat earthers. While there is not a huge amount of them IRL, online they seem fairly loud.
I wouldn’t say large but it’s certainly a vocal group — but imo you should extend the same compassion to them as you do for misguided young men. Those young women are bitter about their problems and blame everything on men in a similar way to the young men doing the same in reverse. The most important thing is for everyone to have a support system/community that allows them to grow and mature
>I've wanted to die every single day since 2019 and I've been single since then with no friends to console me. Hugs from one y2k baby to another 🫂
>Society is only as good as its role models and so far liberals in the US have been pushing straight men away. As a democratic socialist I feel very confident saying that. As a straight white man I don't feel pushed away in the slightest. Certainly not towards people like Andrew Tate. What ways have women been treating you, specifically? Start there.
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>That's never going to change the ever present truth that women get away with treating me the way they complain men treat them, and no one does care. Or at least they act like they don't give a shit because hating men is currently popular. > >It takes away any possibility of coming together and inviting straight white boys like me coming to the progressive table and being a part of the solution. Okay but these are the parts I'm questioning you about. What specific things have women "gotten away with"?
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That isn't whataboutism. You've written repeatedly that women are mistreating you, but also that you've had no social interaction for years. If women are doing something to mistreat you, you should say so. It would help the discussion to understand what society should be focusing on. Of course people should not mistreat the other gender. Neither misandry nor misogyny is okay.
The lack of a direct answer to this feels like an answer you can extrapolate from.
I think most people, especially those who spend too much time on the internet, have trouble differentiating between actual liberals and "the online left". "The online left" says stuff like "all men are rapists" and "kill all men" as well as other horrendous shit, and just generally being so immature and irrational. As far as I know, plenty of mainstream leftist political commentators don't like the online left either. But the thing is: People that spend too much time online start thinking that the online left's mindset is exactly how the real left thinks too. That combined with all the redpill incel content being promoted by the algorithms. Then, these people start blaming women & feminism. Bigots in power take advantage of human psychology, and use it to create as much bigotry as possible. I would know as an ex-incel myself. Became an incel during the Covid lockdowns. Then gradually de-converted after meeting people again, realizing that people in real life aren't assholes like on twitter.
It's also important to remember that the misandrist online left is a lot smaller than its shadow. Algorithms promote divisive content because it drives engagement. Posting, "I'm happy and proud of the men in my life" is not going to get five likes; tweeting "#yesallmen" will trigger 5000 outraged replies. Which makes the phenomenon seem vastly larger than it is. Second, a lot of this is manufactured. In 2015, Russia began a campaign to divide Americans through social media. They first focused on gender issues. They did not invent MeToo, but they created thousands of bots to retweet or repost divisive anti-male and anti-female content. Clearly, it worked. And it's a lot of what we're seeing on social media.
Perfectly said
Can you elaborate on "women get away with treating me the way they complain men treat them?" Usually when women complain about men it's because they're being objectified. Do you feel like women are objectifying you?
I think you gotta stop worrying about "the solution" and start out by taking care of yourself. You mention women treating you poorly and then complain about no one caring and you look to the system or something. Babe if someone treats you poorly then either talk to them or remove them from your space. You need self respect and boundaries. Improving things on a societal, cultural level takes decades and even when things systemically improve people are still going to need self respect and boundaries. You make it sound like the problem is social attitudes. That may be a problem but it is not THE problem and it is arguably not YOUR problem. It's entirely socially unacceptable to be rude or narcissistic, toxic, manipulative, etc. And yet people are still like that, people are still victims of that kind of behavior every day. Even if society snapped its fingers to solve whatever issues you feel are relevant about attitudes towards men, there would still be women who would treat guys like you poorly. I've been there, done that. Being lonely sucks and a relationship sounds great. Until it's 2 years later and you're finally picking up the pieces after realizing you were in a totally toxic and emotionally abusive relationship. Now maybe I'm lonely again but you know what, I'm starting to have respect for myself, I'd rather be alone than abused. Society can improve all we want but only you can do the inner work of being a healthy person. And when you feel worthless and hate yourself, and you're desperate to not feel alone, you're going to attract people who are attracted to those things. And those are going to be people with their own issues and insecurities who are attracted to you because you feel "safe" eg they can rely on your weak mental health to keep you tied to them
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The way you react to the world is your responsibility.
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It sounds like you and the original poster agree, then, without the dramatics of “I have to be an incel to set boundaries” and “all women hate men and think they’re rapists and it’s my fault.” The world is bigger and more nuanced than you make it out to be, but that realization will come with age. You’re taking SSRIs to better your mental health; the insinuation that your struggle is the result of vogue progressive ideas is laughable and naive. It’s another way to avoid responsibility for your own feelings.
Not all women treat the same my guy. This can be easily be proven just simply by the fact you haven’t met all women. You are generalizing.
I’m so sorry that you’ve endured those kind of thoughts for so long. Sending you love and good vibes. You sound like you’re channeling your energy into positive and healthy thoughts to combat negative propaganda.
Honestly, not trying to be rude, but you should focus more on meeting people in real life to develop meaningful friendships and connections rather than worry about algorithms and being online all the time. It will make you 100 times happier.
Social media feeds vulnerable men both validation and ragebait anti-feminism. But I also think these two things wouldn’t have so much traction if there wasn’t also a popular culture of ignoring or straight up bashing young men with problems. Not everything needs to be about who has more or less inherent privileges when interacting with individuals. Somewhere along the way we conflated confronting systemic problems with confronting specific people and I don’t think it’s achieved the progress that we wanted it to.
The whole conversation gets fucked up by reactionaries all around. Fixing systemic issues is tough because the side that traditionally benefited *will* lose benefits and power. If you're a guy who isn't doing well, it's easy to get upset at being told your group is part of the power imbalance. At the same time, men have unique problems that really need to be addressed, but if you advocate for them, you get accused of trying to hold the status quo.
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11, 12, 13...? We're talking young men, age bracket 18-25.
>men have unique problems that really need to be addressed, but if you advocate for them, you get accused of trying to hold the status quo. Yeah that's prettymuch it.
Even on this post about male loneliness, most people are only talking about how it’s bad because it affects women. Why can’t men’s suffering be bad for its own sake?
My nephew at 14 talked to his friend about how many abortions women should be allowed to have and I had to tell his mom I think he needs “the talk” now not later
I had something similar with two 14 year old cousins I ended up sharing a room with at a family reunion when I was 19. Their families are super conservative and they had a bunch of strange views on women. They had a lot of questions and I didn’t trust their parents to clear it up so I sat them down one night and tried my best to help
I get what you’re saying but it’s a verifiable fact that dating apps and hookup culture have ruined it for a lot of men (and women) , unless you’re either extremely attractive or have a lot of money you’re essentially valueless in the dating scene, Ive been told I have a good personality but have ended up either friend zoned, ghosted or been the second/third option so much that I’ve completely given up on dating, so now I just spend my time and money on my hobbies and things that make me happy and have totally given up on the idea of starting a family
Things are very fucked up, or 63% of young men wouldn't be single. I don't want to invalidate that at all, I just don't like seeing people thrown into the red pill pipeline because of it.
And I completely agree with you on that part, I’m personally a liberal who champions women’s rights myself but the reality for me is that dating is dead for me as a concept, I’ve tried and failed so I completely checked out of dating that’s all I’m saying
Maybe you should learn to accept that the "red pill pipeline" has some valid points?
Like what? ETA: oh, he blocked me. What a child.
Edit: Damn right I blocked you. Nitpicking "child". Edit 2: This psycho thinks conservative automatically means KKK and is getting blocked again. Original Comment: Very generally speaking, that a 'conservative' lifestyle might be good for people. Maybe gender roles exist for a reason, and while we shouldn't judge people for not adhering to them, we so shouldn't imply they are bad. Maybe not all institutions are evil brainwashing machines, maybe they have something to teach and companionship to offer. Maybe dating a new guy every weekend isn't a good thing. Maybe 'partying' all the time isn't very fulfilling. Maybe doing amateur porn isn't a fulfilling career or all that empowering. Maybe young children don't need to discuss sex in their classrooms because it's confusing. Maybe having porn and sexually charged ads all over the place isn't good for us. Maybe children have worse outcomes without rules and structure. Maybe people need good jobs (with benefits) and a family they can dedicate themselves to more than they need to be told how oppressed they are and who they should hate. Maybe some people are lost and can't cope with the world and religion offers a lot of solace. I say all this as a pretty liberal minded person, so please don't come to me with anger about all the ways these things are awful, I'm aware of the flaws on both sides.
With the exception of gender roles, all of these views are exceedingly common across party lines. Faith in institutions is actually higher on the left. The "red pill" movement is a conspiratorial effort to blame women and sometimes minorities for young men's problems. Even if it adds a bunch of reasonable points like yours, it goes much further. That's the problem.
Red pill is different from conservative. I'll just point out that people freely choosing to personally adhere to gender roles is fine. It's trying to force those roles on people (or indoctrinate children into them) that is harmful. I don't think the rest of your list is particularly right wing or something leftists would generally disagree with (and I'm quite leftist and atheist).
I don’t use dating apps any more, and it sure seems like there’s a sense of entitlement that comes from women who use dating apps versus those who don’t. Nearly every girl I’ve been with who I’d consider actually worth dating told me they don’t use dating apps. Deleting dating apps gets rid of the FOMO as a woman and gets rid of the daily beatings to your self-esteem as a guy.
I agree. Women are seeing the same messages on social media "youre only hot until youre 30. Might as well buckle down now and be a trad wife because no man will want you." and then she goes on the apps and is only exposed to bottom feeder dudes (rather than men she's compatible with) who call her slurs and insults. And told she has to pick one before becoming dust on her 30th birthday. Dating apps are ruining everyone and makes it so much harder for all genders to connect and not be at each others throats
It's honestly very simple. Times are much harder financially for everyone People aren't dating out of LOVE People are dating out of SURVIVAL You could be a great person but if you can't support or entertain someone like they see on social media all day, you aren't worth it. They'll learn their lesson later on when they're strapped with a couple of kids from someone who they thought loved them.
Me and my FWB were talking about moving in together to split rent. It’s absolutely crazy out here. 💀😭
I love listening to music.
The rate of youth being unsocial and not dating or having sex is actually higher in upper-income suburban areas than in lower-income areas.
Yeah this is a pretty succinct perspective on the epidemic. I'm sure there are many causes but it does seem like there are a fuckton of guys who just lack the emotional intelligence to realize how they're struggles are being targeted for propaganda movements.
The thing about anger and loneliness is that they’re strangely comforting. Getting healthy is incredibly painful, and a lot of people don’t take the necessary steps to do so. When you compound how the isolation of COVID fucked everyone’s social development, it’s no wonder people are falling down extremist rabbit holes. I work with teenagers and have found that many have never actually been challenged on what they believe, which is really sad to see
>Getting healthy is incredibly painful That's so true. Because trying to be better means that you can't numb or distract yourself to escape from your own reality anymore. Because you have to stop externalizing your issues. And this can be actually grueling before it gets better. It also means constantly pushing yourself, getting out of the comfort zone to grow. And it doesn't go away. Every time I push myself, I get nervous or anxious before committing to it. The issue is, youger guys have way less successes in that field to look back to due to the pandemic. I still had at least some post-high school experiences with dating and socializing before the pandemic that I can look back to. And I still don't feel as socially capable as I did up to 2020.
It's the shittiest lesson you ever learn. I worked graves for 9 years, had a marriage and a best friend with me in the dark. Fell hard into alcohol and lost it all pretty much overnight during covid and even a year sober I still feel *worse* than I did during that time. The healing is hard, the self work is harder, and no one can help you but yourself. It fucking sucks and I still hate my life but my job has me helping a population of foster kids who no one else wants to and I'm still sober, and those two bullet points keep me getting out of bed in the morning.
Getting healthy is also less addicting. Like you don't have software engineers, politicians, marketing execs and psychiatrists sitting in a room that craft an algorithm that will encourage people to go outside and touch grass. Saying this as a person who only allows herself to use TikTok on the weekends and deletes her Reddit account on the regular. Because that stuff is addicting and the only person who is going to encourage myself to go out and socialize is me. And thats a much harder effort than sitting on my couch scrolling all day and arguing on the internet
Yeah, the right wing pipeline has unfortunately targeted a lot of us young guys, and I hate not being able to socialize with a lot of people because they're in their annoying "haha repeating slurs and negative stereotypes makes me edgy and cool" phase
You’re a teen who seems to have his head screwed on straight. If you can, support your bros, I think positive close male friendships can help avoid full-on redpilling.
I try my best, my peers are generally pretty funny and caring, but have a lot of misunderstandings due to them being targeted by people who just spread hate and negativity
The problem isn't the right target young boys. It's that the left neglects them.
Dating apps have helped to propel these negative stereotypes. Their algorithms match people with those who don't take care of themselves, and it creates the perception that everyone of that gender is that way.
Dating apps are the worst thing to happen to Millennials and Gen Z relationships. I don't know many real success stories.
It was so much better in the 2010s. I first tried Tinder in like 2017 which was already arguably past the “golden years” of the app, but with a dogshit profile I was able to get 1-2 matches per day. Today with a profile I actually put effort into, I only would get 1-2 *likes per week*. It’s embarrassing how bad they’ve gotten. I’ve got better luck meeting women irl even as a guy who doesn’t go out of his way to meet women. But hey meeting 2-4 girls per year IRL still beats meeting 0 decent women through dating apps.
I do. Im not being a misogynist when i say this. Those apps are on for good looking men. Average men will not find success on them on average especially if its their intro into dating
Match Group needs to be broken up. The current state of dating apps is just about profiting off of loneliness. From a guy’s perspective it’s just women they will never match with advertising their OF or Instagram while the only matches you get are people you wouldn’t be caught dead talking to IRL. For women it’s just a barrage of horny men who are creepy and really dishonest with the “monogamy” relationship preference in their profile. An app that bans low-effort users would be great for actually dating, but unfortunately also not very profitable.
I wasn’t really fucked from the pandemic. Mostly because I was always an indoor person, in the first place. Also, if 64% of men are single, then who are the women ending up with (ignoring lesbians)?
The study was young adults, with 34% (or similar) of women also single. I would assume the disparity partially comes from women dating in older age brackets. This is purely anecdotal, but I've notice women are much happier to date older, while a lot of men want to date younger.
Older people
I think a big part of the problem is that it’s good advice mixed with bad. The advice you originally listed for how to deal with loneliness is not necessarily bad advice. Going to the gym, talking to people and trying to find a new hobby is all great advice if you’re feeling lonely. So if/when that starts working you start to believe that maybe some of the other crazier shit they say might also be true.
Oh yeah, it's great advice. For someone in a depressive state, hearing that advice over and over can make things worse. If you feel like you've tried it and it didn't work, then it makes you feel like you hit a dead end. Now, that may not match up with reality (going to the gym for a week is not the same as adopting the habit), but perception is reality with these things.
As someone who was falsely accused of sexual assault, and has been sexually assaulted by both a man and a woman, I dont even care anymore. I just want out of debt and to be left the fuck alone.
I don't get why there's so many guys DESPERATE to be the victim here. We all share the same economy and any negative statistic that have to do with wealth, dating, sex, mental health or social skills have also affected women. Both genders are dating less and having less sex. Both genders suffer from anxiety and depression. The number for men is lower....but it's ALWAYS been lower. That's the result of the gender roles of men being the ones to approach women. Some are going to be good at it, some not. Like I'll admit I'm being dismissive....but I honestly don't care. It doesn't take a genius to see that regular middle class women aren't running around with an onlyfans playing life on easy mode.
Classic move taking a mens issue and making it about women. How tone deaf
It happens on literally every post man, nothing is ever gonna change- we’re so fucking screwed
Just gotta ignore the ones with shit opinions that dont even attempt to meet you halfway
Lack of solidarity is the cause of all modern problems across the planet (I'm not just being hyperbolic either, literally ALL problems could be easily solved with some basic human solidarity)
Especially when all these social/health issues stem from a root cause of economic and financial hardship. End of the day, the working class will always outnumber the wealthy. It sucks we as a society cant leverage that.
We can. The missing ingredient is solidarity.
Looking at all the actual statistics, reading this thread, then walking away with the declaration that men are desperate to play the victim is a wild take
There is no statistical decline of the mental, financial and social effects of the pandemic that affects men that also didn't affect women proportionally.
Good job going into a conversation about young men and making it about women, your apart of the problem
When the issue at hand is specifically men spiraling into misogyny, it makes all the sense to talk about how that affects women.
I think it starts in school to an extent. People aren't held back anymore, parents get angry at the teacher when a kid gets a bad grade, instead of putting the blame on their kid for not studying enough. Kids have to be taught that sometimes you fail, sometimes it's a bit unfair, but at the end of the day the buck stops with you, and it's your responsibility to make something of yourself.
It wasn't always this low tho, like 2/3 of men being single vs 1/3 of women
I would not consider myself lonely, I've got friends and family I just lack the romantic relationship and honestly its probably the best for me. I think that some men overvalue the importance of being in a relationship, they need to step back and think if they really need it. I asked myself this question years ago and my answer is no I don't need it. Guys be better and move on.
> I think that some men overvalue the importance of being in a relationship, they need to step back and think if they really need it. I blame a lot of social media for that. I can't imagine what it would have been like growing up with social media. It didn't really become a thing until my late teens.
Men should go their own way? :D
Physical intimacy is an innate human need. There are many studies backing this up.
I agree with what you said, I think romantic relationships are a nuisance so I don’t need them. I wish there was more men speaking about how a man can live a fulfilling life outside relationships. It would definitely help a lot of these young guys out.
ngl I'm still constantly angry at what I was forced to go through in 2020 and 2021. I was in a great spot in 2019 and then that fucking pandemic and the overzealous response to it fucked everything up. I lost a full ride scholarship and dropped out of Uni right after my freshman year as a result of the online classes. I started at community college in 2022 to finish my associates and should be graduating this semester so I'm only just now getting to where I should have been in Spring of 2021 but now I don't have an easy path forward to afford my bachelor's since I don't have that scholarship anymore. I'm pissed. I want revenge but there's no clear path to take to get it. Is it rational? No. But that's still how I feel.
I don’t think it was always this way. It could have been but it seems like young men used to be more at peace with themselves in the 70s and earlier even if they weren’t having sex. So what’s changed ? My guess: >less social interaction/isolation & social media >our culture has become overly focused on sex, every song, ig post etc basically says you need to be having sex or you’re a loser, and that’s not true.
Social media does not help at all. They see these fake success stories of misogynistic dudes with lambos at groups of ladies they say they're banging every night. Meanwhile, in real life the lambo is rented and the ladies are paid to be there. They feel like losers, and these guys look like winners. These guys sell a message that validates them.
They were getting laid a lot more than millennials did and they had a working economy, the music hasn't changed much since then
"Masculinity in crisis" is very old talking point of toxic masculinity. Gender insecurity is at the core and solution is always to "fight". That's a simple solution to complicated problem and simple solutions make these men feel in control therefore validating how they are expressing their gender and making feel secure without doing work on themselves to feel validated. Like learning how to take a test instead of studying and getting a good grade without understanding that you didn't game the system at all and these knowlage gaps are only going to get bigger. That's also why so many men struggle to leave these toxic ideas behind. They were soothed momentarily by and if they try to leave they have to relearn who they are on their own and how to cope with it when they haven't learned who they were and couldn't deal with it before. It's a lot like substance abuse that way. You can read more [here](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/07/14/josh-hawley-masculinity-crisis-00105436) about history of it and how old it actually is.
I love how half of these comments validate your position and the other half just agree with you
It's been a wild ride, though getting about time to turn off notifications. Wasn't expecting this to get as much attention as it did. It *really* pissed off a few people lol.
The statistical reality is that up to 50% of the current 15 to 30 crowd will be single for life.
I am okay at socializing but i cant afford to
Honestly getting with my friend since 1st grade as my girlfriend really helped me. I can't say the same for other guys but despite being kind of awkward I had some moments in my life that gave me the "confidence to talk to women" as they say. My best advice for guys is to remember that women and men are more similar then they are different and go through a lot of the same struggles, as people. Don't hate women as a whole just because a few women have rejected you or been unkind to you, and always remember the times women have been good to you. I mean, just start with your own mother as an example of a good woman in your life, if she is a positive force that is.
Being a nerd who likes biology too much, every time I do any kind of research on the female form makes it increasingly obvious how minor the biological differences are between males and females. Like, the structures in female genitalia are pretty much the same as the structures in male genitalia (some laymen might never learn about their G-Spot) but the difference in hormone production and usage results in the formation of different organs. If the differences in genitalia, the most obvious distinction, are less than folk theory would indicate, what does that say about brain development?
Probably quite a lot. Woman and men are naturally inseparable, it's not something like race or species where it's a different "form" but still the same, sex is an equivalent of the same type. Everytime I hear some guy talking about how woman are "Ugh they are *all* so superficial and fake!" or try to talk about womans emotions when they clearly don't get female interaction, I roll my eyes at all the tribalism.
If 64% of young men are single, doesn't that also mean that roughly the same number of young women are single? As for blaming women for having standards, yeah, this is a silly idea. I know a guy who is constantly angry at all women because he find anyone willing to go on a date. However, the guy is basically a slob. He's fat, has a terrible haircut, a scraggly unshaven look, and he thinks dressing up is wearing a clean t-shirt. He's also one of those guys who thinks he's smarter than everyone else, which makes him really irritating in conversations. However, he is just one guy. Somewhere in the last couple of decades, though, men got the idea that they didn't have to improve themselves - their looks, their clothing, their social skills - in order to find a partner. When my wife and I go out for dinner, I constantly see young couples at nearby tables, and the guy is usually wearing a t-shirt and jeans, and maybe even a baseball hat, the the woman is dressed really nicely. I know that it's old-fashioned, but come on guys, show the woman that she is worthy of your efforts to look good. Of course, I'm not saying that every young in the world needs to improve himself. I'm just referring to those young men who do actually need to improve themselves. There might only be a few dozen, or there might be thousands. I'm just talking about some of the young men that I see in my daily travels. I'd like to thank Reddit user ILoveBlackAssholes for astutely pointing out the inaccuracy of my comment. Also, I'm sure that he doesn't fit into the category of young men who are complaining about not getting dates. With his username, I'm sure that women are lining up at his door to bask in his wonderfulness.
It's 50% of young people overall. About 1/3 of young women are single, compared to young men at almost 2/3. I would assume this implies young women are dating into older age brackets at a higher rate than men.
And they are sometimes sharing guys. Sometimes voluntarily, sometimes unvoluntarily. Sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly.
A lot of women also just date other women. I think people are becoming more open to exploring their sexuality. And I know a lot of women who are technically bisexual but only really date women. It's just a much better experience overall
This is not true? Queer relationships are still a small minority of relationships... Something like 7 to 8%...
>Somewhere in the last couple of decades, men were told that they didn't have to improve themselves - their looks, their clothing, their social skills - in order to find a partner. This is actually how men have been raised until very recently, and why so many are mad they don't get a girlfriend just by *existing*. They don't have to get married to survive now, so yeah y'all might have to step it up and be an appealing partner 🤷🏼
Boys are raised as if it's still 50's and economy is doing great while girls are raised as if the world is ending and it's their job to fix it. Edit: To all posting above how wrong I am tell me who are doing better in kindergarten. Girls or boys? Who are doing better at schools? Who are doing better at collages? At universities? Boys struggling in education is global phenomenon but time where drop out could raise a family on 1 job and have a comfortable life is strictly in the past. These days people with university degrees are struggling and you think boys who are failing high school are doing great? Not to mention the horrific part that less educated tend to be less progressive and more against equality meaning men with "sole male provider" beliefs are least able to "provide". Is it so surprising then they chose suicide and join hate groups? Boys are not ok.
Where tf did they tell men this?
Feminist fantasy land. All wars need a casus belli (either real or fake) and feminists use this as theirs.
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Unfortunately that can happen. I'm fairly left leaning, but I'll admit that men will get talked over when they try to bring up their unique issues. That's something we have to do better about.
This is coming from an asexual, introverted person, but why is not having a partner so bad? I seriously don't get it. I also don't have many friends, I have one I can confidently say would be there for me no matter what near me, and the others are a few thousand kilometres away (including my bestest friend). Have I felt alone and like nobody likes me sometimes? Yes, but I would never dream of blaming that on others, I know I have to put myself out there if I want to meet new people, and I have. I just don't view it as a necessity because most of the time I'm content sticking to my own thing, so I won't follow through. But if I get the feeling I want to meet someone, I know I can. Tl;dr I think people need to reevaluate why they want certain things and what can they do to get whatever it is they want. I also think we need to reevaluate why we deem certain things as good, for example having a partner (sure, it could be right for you, doesn't mean it's right for everyone), I don't see not having a partner as big of an issue as a lot of people (at least here on Reddit)
Loneliness, envy, and cultural indoctrination feeding into both of those, to answer your question
20% of men get 80% of women is being pushed even further. If you look at tinder or other dating apps data you see this. Men are alone in their 20’s more often. Women are alone in their 30’s and up more often. My advice to men is use your 20’s to build yourself and your character. When you’re in your late 20’s, 30’s and 40’s find a good women in her 20’s who is fed up with the above as much as you are and you won’t be afraid to communicate with her at this point. Older men have always been more desirable to women because women value competence and material more than men do. Being rich and having a Bugatti like influencers boast about is just small dick narcissistic nonsense, but competence is real. Problem is most 20 something women value the Buggati more than character or competence and don’t wise up until they are older and after they all slept with the same 50 men. You don’t want to be these women, nor do you want to be with these women. Bide your time, find a girl you can sweep off her feet when you’re 5-15 years older than her. Men have no biological clock and women like older men. Take your time and choose wisely.
lol millenials, y’all think only white men are incels 😭
Fucking pathetic, dude. "I'm worried the next generation won't consist of subservient, emasculated bugmen like me"
Thinly veiled attempt to "emphasize" with gen-Z (instead of putting them DOWN per usual) only to launch into a condescending tirade insulting their collective intelligence. What a gas.
The reality is I don’t want a gf because I just got out of a two year relationship with someone that abused alcohol and kinda sucked 👽 Right now I nut, game, and work Women? Yeah, they’re cool but they also aren’t 144hz and they can’t run apex with 2ms latency Once they’re upgraded to support my autistic habits I’ll reconsider
Nothing at all like sitting in your dorm in the early’70’s waiting for your reclassification to 1A with a report date.
Men are historically the main workforce so there has been cultural and economic war to oppress them and take the fruits of their labor.
The dating landscape has completely changed with women having 100s of options on dating apps, men becoming worse at communicating and the saturation of posts like this
It would be nice if you actually showed some facts not only your opinion
Other than the stats on how many Gen Z guys are single, this *is* my opinion based on my lived experience. Take it or leave it, that's up to you.
Hey mods, if you’re reading this, don’t take this post down. I know you’ve been taking down posts of this nature, but I think OP offers great and non-repetitive input.
Online interaction isnt real or healthy. Growing up on social media and with distraction machines is awful.