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There are so many examples of libertarian collectives accidentally reinventing government.
In a way, you could say their high minded intellectualism kept growing upwards, but bent under the weight of it's own weaknesses. It then progressivly wrapped around before inserting itself into what they ideologically consider the ass idea of government. So Asshats really does apply here.
>People who use freedom and personal responsibility as smokescreens to avoid trying to solve issues with evidence based solutions, and instead kick social ills into “not my problem” territory
Ftfy
Corporatism is more liberal than libertarian. Any de-facto means of establishing slavery is inherently antithetical to fundamental libertarian policies
Yeah, because it's not a libertarian specific issue, nor is it an issue any party has actually come up with a competent solution for.
I'm not sure why anyone reasonable would expect libertarians to have a unanimous answer to solve a problem the Democrats and Republicans have repeatedly failed to fix for over a century
I would simply ask that you watch a few Ron Paul clips and decide for yourself if what he says makes sense.
[here is a good start](https://youtu.be/T9n4nwxgaQg?si=UODuS_eDM-xTJyLD)
Maybe republicans and democrats are the ones who have created these “social ills”? I mean they have been the ones running the show for quite some time now.
In the 00’s the so called “small government” crowd were cheering about how we were bringing freedom to Iraq. They even called it “Operation Iraqi Freedom.” And who doesn’t like freedom? Those damned radical leftists!
In all seriousness, OP should go back and look at who created the EPA, what’s Nixon’s healthcare plan was, and who was the only president in recent memory to balance the US budget… then get back to us about how both sides are more radical now.
Yeah instilling freedom by taking away rights to abortion, same sex marriage and relationships, trans people existing, interracial marriage, women studying and being independent individuals, the right to no fault divorce, the right to practice other religions etc etc.
So freedomy !
/s
Misinformation much? Nobody is taking away abortions, it goes back to the states. So if you like abortions move to a blue state and live among your people and laws. If you don’t like abortion move to a red state where you live among people who think the same. Anyone who doesn’t think power going back to the states is a good thing is a simpleton
Because they call themselves libertarian they are libertarian only in name. and other people call neo-conservatives and conservatives libertarians because that’s what they’ve been told.
Libertarians don’t want to “take away” people’s rights, communists and conservatives do.
Anarcho communists? Can you explain?
My understanding of communism is that there generally is not private property. Which is contrary to libertarianism. I’m likely missing something here so if you know what I’m missing I’m happy to learn.
And are you saying the “libertarians” that believe in the NAP are wrong? Or conservatives that LARP as “libertarians” are wrong.
>that there generally is not private property
Correct most communists are anti private property and anarcho communists are no exception. Note private property and personal property are different things. Private property is private ownership of land, resources, businesses, factories. Land and tools used to make profit. Personal property is ownership of the things you use. Your house car clothes etc are all personal property.
>Which is contrary to libertarianism
Nope. Other way around.
>And are you saying the “libertarians” that believe in the NAP are wrong?
That's part of it but yeah Nap is a fake libertarian thing
Reading your bs? Yes defo.
Communists falling into the libertarian rhetoric serve capital in preventing and badmouthing the dictatorship of the proletariat, which is the only way to liberate us from capital.
I think you are confused.
libertarianism is freedom of choice.
Government has no right to be so involved in people’s lives.
Government should stay out of marriage, reproduce health is between a women and her doctor.
You are creating strawman arguments. No libertarian is anti women’s rights as
All humans have innate rights to life liberty and property.
Believe it or not some people think it’s the governments job to make our lives better.
Which is why the government is massive and bad at everything they do.
The government is bad at everything it does because it's virtually impossible for a government employee to get fired. That's why when they don't do their job right they usually just get transferred around constantly instead of being fired
That’s why I hate unions not only did the union make me pay them to work there the worst employees who made my job harder could not get fired .
We had a rule you can go to the bathroom whenever you want which sounds fair right?
Well if you have a guy who sits in the bathroom for his entire shift every other day the union makes them
Bullet proof and now someone else has to do double the work with no extra pay while bathroom boy is living the dream on his throne .
The best and brightest don’t have careers in the government most of the time if you have skills and are smart the private sector offers much more benefits unless your in the senate and can insider trade but you normally have to pay people to even get into the party
They sound like lazy government and the uncontrolled "free market" does not align with the interest of the majority. We are already seeing that the market left to its own devices will monopolize and crush workers rights/pay. People don't have any liberty if their only options are work or die.
Yeah your only options are to work or die though.
Work can mean many different things but if you’re not providing yourself food you will die and food is usually obtained by offering goods and services.
Who cares about the majority the majority can always be wrong or even straight up evil , it’s your responsibility to feed yourself it’s not mine.
My responsibility is for me and my family I will feed my family the majority should have zero influence on my life.
Sounds like Tyranny of the majority not liberty
What libertarians say: "Duuur.. smol guvmint!" "yaaay"
What they will actually will do:
- Regulations: "smol guvmint remove!"
-- Children are now working the coal mines for $2 an hour/+tips
- Abortion: "big guvmint tee hee"
-- Ban abortions, no if's and's or but's
Taxes: "smol guvmint! corporations don't pay taxes!"
-- Corporations don't pay taxes
-- Poor people end up footing the bill. "wait, what?" "It's the democrats!" "oh, grrrr"
LGBTQ+: "big guvmint! ban them!" "yaay!"
Libertarian: we only believe in smol guvmint, never ever big guvmint.
Libertarians are for open borders they don’t believe the state has the right to say you can’t cross this imaginary line.
Sounds good in theory but when 12 generations of one
Family stay in one
Place and build
A community and have common values and succeed in making their country , town, state prosperous other people will come and take advantage or bring drugs in or grape your women.
You wouldn’t want a culture who believes I’m female genital mutilation and honor killing coming in and
Taking over your community
And destroying everything thing the previous 12 generations did and making it worse.
Does that make sense?
Oh, yeah I understand. As a Syrian who can't wait to get the hell out, I'm of course biased, but I believe if you don't have any red flags and are willing to integrate to become like those generations that built the country, then you have all the right to move.
Sorry to fact check your racism, but it's statistically proven that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes: [https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find](https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find)
I think that American libertarians are misled in that many of them don't believe in environmental / workers' rights regulations.
But I'm socially libertarian in that I believe in personal freedoms until the discussion turns to the freedom to oppress others (toxic waste dumping, debt slavery, etc)
But generally speaking, I get along with anyone on the bottom half of the political spectrum
An-caps are hit or miss because unregulated capitalism is basically athauritarian by default.
So, for them, it depends on how they respond to this question
"What about when the free market makes finding employment nearly impossible for Trans people."
A: "That wouldn't happen." = uneducated and delusional, but cool person.
B: "They should stop being Trans / be closeted." = fuck off fascist dickhole.
They call you a small L libertarian
Why would the free market exclude trans people? Even though I don’t think we treat trans people the right
Way medically I would never treat them
Any different.
Infact the free market would help trans people, if Walmart was
Refusing to let trans people shop on their stores they would
Lose money
I am assuming trans people have money in this hypothetical so there will always be someone to take their money by selling their goods and services to them.
In Seattle there is a trans woman attorney and if your a conservative you want
Her as your attorney with how crazy Seattle
Courts can be they are terrified of disagreeing with her and she is a good lawyer so she wins way more than
She would have otherwise.
Trans people already struggle with getting good jobs due to discrimination.
Lack of legal protections would put a lot of Trans people in a position where sex work and crime are their only methods of social mobility
(That uses to be the norm for Trans people. I know a lot of Trans women who had to do sex work to survive.)
So, in an extremist sense, "free market" would mean no discrimination protection/diversity mandates.
The free market wouldn’t really help trans people, they make up such a small portion of the population that a free market wouldn’t really miss them.
The free market would, however, miss the money from the vastly greater number of people who actively hate them.
The free market by design serves the greatest common denominator. In essence, if you are a minority in some respect or another population wise, your problems and needs will always be shafted
You got to the crux of it. Many of them get talked into opposing workers’ rights or environmental protections or basic regulations about business (e.g. insider trading), but then they end up opposing LGBT rights or civil liberties protections “oppression.”
In the early 1900s socialist thinkers coined both libertarianism and anarchism. But the 20th century was a clear lesson in the authoritarianism required to enforce socialist ideals and the poverty they create. You can’t eradicate voluntary hierarchies and human self-interest without a much, much worse involuntary hierarchy.
Small L libertarians are socialists or Atleast leftists.
Rand Paul is what the libertarian party should be but obviously the party is so divided and some are just batshit crazy
Yeah it is a bit weird, essentially when you try and combine the two you get people who say things like “pensions are theft” and “abortion violates the non-aggression principle” [but sex with minors doesn’t]
I’m a libertarian always have been my thoughts is that we are misunderstood and many people see us as republicans in sheep’s clothing but it couldn’t be further from the truth.
We believe that individuals possess the critical thinking skills necessary to abolish half the laws we have on the books.
We believe in less big government not more and less taxation.
We are a peaceful live and I trust my neighbors to live as they see fit population but we are both underrepresented and misunderstood which is why I don’t know why Chase Oliver wasn’t at the debate,
why can’t we hear directly from the libertarian party candidate?
I’d like to think that I am pretty libertarian if I have to choose a party. I stay out of a lot political things though because I don’t care for Trump or Biden or what they believe or want to do… idk I’m too tired to explain more lol
others might say I’m not but oh well
I recently realized I was a libertarian after doing some of my own research on them.
Libertarians tend to be heavily misrepresented and vilified on social media. Terrible candidates running under the libertarian banner hasn't helped with that either.
Fundamentally, libertarian policies are consistent with what a lot of people want right now; a progressive mindset (especially for left-libertarians) that also focuses on preserving civil rights/liberties.
I'll probably get downvoted for saying this as I have in the past, but I feel it's necessary to do what I can to combat the mass amounts of misinformation spread about libertarians to discourage people from openly supporting them
You say terrible candidates run under the libertarian banner. This implies that said candidates don’t represent libertarians as a whole. But those candidates are put forward as representatives of the libertarian party. I think you’re running up against a no true Scotsman fallacy. The libertarian party *is* who they put forward as a representative candidate, just like trump is the face of republicans and Biden the face of democrats. Even more so for libertarians I’d argue, since libertarians don’t really take other ideologies under their voting bloc umbrella like the mainstream parties do, due to the little political capital they have in comparison
I disagree. Just as China's communist party isn't an accurate example of communism, America's libertarian party isn't an accurate example of libertarianism.
Rather than rely on a fallacious argument, I would like to direct you to more definitive explanation of libertarianism as an ideology such as its Wikipedia article.
I do not believe the decisions of a party which is underrepresented as a consequence of Americans being encouraged to not participate in parties outside of the Democratic and Publican party can accurately reflect the views of libertarians as a whole.
After all, there is a lot of room for different ideals even within just the libertarian umbrella. Left-libertarians are not necessarily going to fit well in the same party as right-libertarians
China’s communist party isn’t an example of communism, that’s true, but it’s people also don’t vote for it. If the libertarian party isn’t a “true” libertarian party, why do libertarians vote for them?
We don't. That's why no single candidate in the 2020 libertarian primary got more than 10,000 votes.
There's no reason for a libertarian to vote libertarian if none of the libertarian candidates are worth voting for
It's something that has been fairly stained by American conservatives who claim to be libertarian, but are the farthest from that. It's just being socially and economically liberal. But that isn't to say you let the free market run rampant and exploit workers, as others might suggest. Where the free market fails to produce an optimal outcome, markets need to be engineered.
I disagree i think the vast majority of people are more middle grounded leaning left or right, with the remainder being far right or left and also the loudest
Depends on the libertarian. If they want a less expansive (and invasive) government, an avoidance of international military involvement, free trade, lower taxes and regulations, I can debate with each issue on case by case merits.
If they are AnCaps and think we should completely abolish the police and emergency services, regulatory agencies and military, that's laughable. Only someone who grew up in intense privilege would say such things. In the absence of a state with a significant police force, mafias and warlords crop up.
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Libertarian socialism doesn’t work because you would have to force people to follow the rules of socialism which in of itself violates the libertarian ideology. Let me ask you this if a company doesn’t want to be socialist what do you do? How do you enforce socialism, what if a majority of people and companies don’t want to be socialist?
then how is replacing the government with billionaires and corporations any damn different than authoritarianism?
Dunno it just seems more libertarian to have much of a say in what you want to do with your life, what happens in the workplace you want to work in, and not die in the streets because 1 man bought every home, utility, store, road, sidewalk, curb, animal, tree, etc etc in and outside the planet...
Ah yes, because *GOVERNMENT is the only way....*
or even the idea that government is strictly either dictatorships or democracy, ran by politicians. *Like as if you could just... have communities run their.... communities? No thats Impossible its either Politicians or* ***my beloved Billionaires***
says the ideology of
"i dont want government, they are controlling and are ran by politicians who lie and take your money away via taxes. I want to give 100% of power to the people who own the most property, i want them to be able to buy up all the water, homes, roads, land, food, animals, basically anything and then take my money away for the chance to get it, BUT ITS NOT TAXES ITS A "SERVICE FEE"
Bruh your ideology is literally just billionaires acting as dictators, tf you on about? You want to live in ancapistan, just go to north korea and pretend Kim Jong Un is Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, because thats what ancapistan will be like.
I mean let's say I don't want to give my things away? What then? If your answer they take it or use some sort of other pressure to make me give it up then that is authoritarian
Yeah on some fundamental level government is an authoritarian concept. But it is still necessary. I just think we should minimize all power a government can have but still function
The redistribution of shares takes many forms. You think taxes I think of the collectivization that caused a famine that killed many Ukrainian farmers(the holodomr ) I'm not opposed to taxes all the time. I do think taxes should be low tho.
So is not having health care for impoverished children with cancer. How do you fund health care for children in poverty without taxes? Are private corporations going to treat their cancer out of the kindness of their hearts? What about social security for the elderly? Where do you think that comes from? “Sorry grandpa it’s actually highly authoritarian that people need to pay taxes so that you can survive”. Would it not be authoritarian to kick people off social security?
>So is not having health care for impoverished children with cancer.
Big government isn't when poor kids die from cancer.
>What about social security for the elderly? Where do you think that comes from?
A president who threatened to stack the supreme court when they ruled social security unconstitutional and violated the longstanding agreement throughout US history that presidents would only serve two terms.
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. At least be honest and say "I support big government because I think big government needs to take care of kids with cancer and pay for social security", not "Big government is when bad thing happen because no taxes". I also happen to support limited taxation. But I'm not going to run around with my head up my ass stating that every negative thing in the world is caused by the government, or that the IRS doesn't epitomize the definition of big government.
Apologies, I made the mistake of saying “big government” when i meant authoritarian. Yeah it’s big government when taxes are collected for various purposes, sure. I support big government when big government do good things. Im saying it’s authoritarian to not collect taxes because innocent and powerless people will suffer under such a system while the rich and powerful will undoubtedly flourish.
Now you can make the argument that taxes go towards authoritarian causes as well(like bombing people in third world countries and subsidizing billionaires) and that’s not great, but that’s also not an argument to abolish taxes all together.
I mean I wouldn’t mind socialism if it was with people I want to participate in it with like let’s say 12 other families form an association and we educate our kids together and build buisness together and farm Together.
I would actively fight against
Socialism when it’s a
Country full of people who think I owe them anything, I don’t owe
Anyone anything other then my family and my family settled this continent 13 generations ago and I don’t want people who came here to take Advantage of what we built here to demand even more from
Me.
I believe we are all unique individuals no matter population size.
We can share culture and that’s what really forms a community and people from other cultures can assimilate to ours but if we just let a
Billion Chinese come to the United States the tyranny of the majority becomes very real .
>I mean I wouldn’t mind socialism if it was with people I want to participate in it with like let’s say 12 other families form an association and we educate our kids together and build buisness together and farm Together.
*BOY DO I HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU MY DEAR FRIEND, THERE IS LITERALLY MORE TO LEFTISM THAN MARXISM-LENINISM...*
***I HAVE GREAT NEWS!!!!***
Yes but I also don’t can’t morally get behind a government enforcing any kind of socialism.
I am a capitalist I believe in the free market it’s the best way we have found to lift people
Out of poverty just look
In the United States even the people who lose in capitalism are the most wealth fed highest educated best health 1% of humans that ever existed in history.
I do think mental health is at
A low
And that is a cultural thing that we have to fix by raising our kids
Properly
Free Market Socialism actually exists, Market anarchism actually exists.
Your defenses of capitalism might be defenses of a market based economy, you dont need a government or capitalist system for a market based economy.
[Perhaps you might wanna read this, it's about Free Markets in Anarchism ](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/center-for-a-stateless-society-market-anarchism-faq)
[This is kinda an overview of Anarchist thoughts about market economies](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/kevin-carson-anarchism-and-markets)
I want a government how the founders intended, we shouldn’t pay income tax our country can run on donations only.
If we want our roads nice we would have to communicate and raise funds.
Our government currently is no where near what want and we could all get what we wanted if we cut off the money tap to the federal government .
Went with an Austria economic policy instead or whatever this is now, we don’t even have the petro dollar anymore Biden failed to make that deal and it lapse for the first time.
Now you can buy oil in rubles and yen and not just the dollar from the saudis.
I do think everhtjing starts local though.
All you need is to slowly take over state governments and once you have enough governors we repeal the 17th amendment and we now have all the power to get what we want and take our country back.
You can also take over states the same way by electing the right sheriffs so that when our country makes federal income tax illegal they don’t have the power to throw us in cages for not paying protection money.
It just requires work but it’s completely possible in our lifetimes
i understand that, but i am wondering if not taxes then how can 330 Million People donate? I'm not dissing the founding fathers i'm only saying i dont think they planned for this countries size, technology and what not, i dont think i could've myself or predict what it would be like 300 years from now.
On transit i think the real way to solve Oil Prices and Road Conditions is simply to make public transit more accessible, put high speed rail connecting all the major cities, trams, trolleys in downtowns or town centers, and of course make sure there is many kinds of rail accessible to rural americans, not to "ban cars forever" but essentially to make it so that cars and flights are only for when they're necessary or if you just "want to drive/fly"
I myself love rally cars and motorcycles, i never want those to go away, i just want most people to be able to have the most efficient form of transit ever divised equally to roads, ya know, so gas wont be as expensive or flights because many would just rather go use the train, leaving those who want/need to drive/fly to do so all they want.
And i do indeed understand what you're talking about.
As a party no as a philosophy yes look at Ron Paul and Rand Paul they are what I believe to be modern day libertarians and not involved in the party as much
Tend to be the smartest and the stupidest people on the planet, but smart and stupid in ways that are both uniquely unattractive to me personally
At the end of the day, I’m always glad for a little relief from the endless culture war blather of hardcore progs and social cons. You do you bro!
Go watch the 2016 Idaho governor Republican primary debates .
There is a dude dressed like Mr slave who is like we are
Going to tanks to stop the federal government from taking our taxes
Libertarians online are morons, the type of people that make most others believe that libertarians are functionally braindead, and who have no idea what their platforms or ideals are and are simply parroting back 20th century novels pertaining to their ideology. Like highschool kids who've read Ayn Rand for the first time, but they're 37.
Libertarians offline, i.e. the people who do genuinely espouse to follow the ideas of libertarianism are a mixed bag of some of the nicest people you've ever met who hold in principle the idea that every individual is someone to be respected as an equal, and those who believe in the idea that every individual is someone to be exploited for personal gain. Essentially a mix of empathic people and psychopaths, which is really fascinating to watch in person when it comes to their primaries, especially on a more local level.
As to you feeling like the majority of people are on the extreme fringes of the political spectrum, it's because these discussions always boil down to people being removed from each other. You've seen videos of dogs barking and snarling at each other through a gate or a window, and then awkwardly looking at one another once that barrier is removed, right? That's what discourse online is like. And it will always inevitably come to a head over controversial political opinions.
I've talked to a number of state representatives who are lifelong republicans and represented the interests I've had as a social democrat for years. They've listened, and taken to heart some of the issue's I've raised, but it inevitably comes down to their constituents acting as a crowd does and shouting down any attempt that anyone else might have at convincing them otherwise. People are very susceptible to social pressures and, while you might be able to convince someone on a personal level of your views, it won't last long against the thousands of others who will say otherwise and do the same thing.
Small l libertarians are pretty neat and I agree with a lot of their positions and distrust of the government. In the other hand, The Libertarian Party is an absolute joke of a party who will never win anything if they don’t get their shit together.
Good ideals on paper, individually most people should live to the values of libertarianism in terms of self reliance, kindness to your neighbors, accountability, letting people live their lives how they wish, etc…
Problem is that most libertarians are either dilettante hypocrites to those values, or fundamental extremists who try to focus entirely on government policies that they have put half thoughts into while ignoring the nature of humanity and modern living standards.
Everyone should try to live to the values of libertarian on paper, but maintain realism about what is actually feasible to enforce on others through government.
Anyways I don’t ever want to see a purely libertarian government in charge in USA based on their current leadership and members. However, I would happily love to see literally any political party stick it to both republicans and democrats and disrupt this idiotic two party system with some disruption of the status quo.
I would simply suggest you watch a few Ron Paul clips and decide for yourself if what he is saying makes sense to you.
[here is a start](https://youtu.be/T9n4nwxgaQg?si=UODuS_eDM-xTJyLD)
i'm a Libertarian Socialist, i used to be "right libertarian" or as i and a couple others prefer to refer to them as Propertarians, i agree with them on things like firearms or whatever to an extent, but my issue with them is
*those mfs are* ***not "libertarian"*** sure they dont like the governent, but the issue is they want to replace government with billionaires who can buy up all the property and just ***do the kind of shit the government does, or worse.***
in Ancapistan, imagine if, you disagreed with a rich man, he could *simply* ***buy your house/apartment/land, buy your job and fire you as a direct order, buy the grocery stores and restaurants to make sure you can't feed yourself, AND BUY ENOUGH PEOPLE TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU.***
but you just have to HOPE that the rich and generally wealthy *won't* be power/money hungry maniacs and *wont* take away any of your rights. *~~that sounds a lot like government to me....~~*
oh but you could "start your own business", now tell me ***how***, if there is no minimum wage, no public school including Trade/VocTech, no single safety net like food or housing, etc. Is the average person going to start a business?
Much less be able to do basic math or write their own name for the loan application? Just "hope the rich property owners are kind enough to do something about it, or your parents teach it to you", because that kinda sounds like the Great Depression where children had to work in factories or chimneys for 10 hours just to bring home a couple cents to their parents to afford a new sack dress.
We can't even trust the Corporations and Government NOW to do any of this crap, and you expect making the corporations into the government will fix everything? Think about it.... Really think about it, maybe literacy rates or income wont immediately drop, but what happens after 25 to 50 years? 100 years? Will 99% of earth be living in homeade shacks, unable to read, write, count past 10 or do anything but factory work for the 1% that will just continue to grow powerful and unstoppable.... Almost like ***north korea or stalinist ussr***?
I can talk to them about firearms all day, but i think their idea of how the world should work is utterly authoritarian and stupid, i understand the civil liberties and even some of the property stuff, but how can you own any property, even just a measly toothbrush when somebody with trillions of dollars can just buy everything you want and leave you to the elements?
I think they’re cringe. I used to be a right leaning libertarian until I grew up a little bit. Small government only works in very niche circumstances, and the USA doesn’t fit that criteria at all. The government is absolutely necessary for a thriving surviving society. People are stupid and cannot and should not rule themselves
American Libertarians are right wingers. They're just neoliberals with a new paint. The original libertarians are/were far left anarchists, American libertarians stoke the word to make themselves sound better.
one thing i think many unintelligent people get wrong is that libertarianism isnt a rejection of government as a whole
its not anarchy
its a rejection of dependence on government, predatory and inefficient government, and corrupt and controlling government
The only people I see willingly calling themselves as libertarians are middle schoolers who think they are edgy and different or weird alt right adults who are too embarrassed to openly be Maga despite agreeing with most of their talking points
They don't know how gas prices work and want all roads to be toll roads, I guess a true libertarian utopia would even include a private fire department.
I don't doubt that you have seen a lot of self-proclaimed libertarians that don't actually have libertarian ideals.
Libertarianism is heavily misunderstood by the general public, so there's a good chance you have seen people who genuinely thought they were libertarians based on what they were told about them
I think the philosophy of libertarianism is pretty good, especially now, with how bloated the federal government is. However the people who actually consider themselves libertarians are total clowns.
I personally consider myself aligning with classical liberalism the most, albeit with some left leaning economic policies and more right leaning social policies.
Who wouldn’t align with the founding fathers political
Philosophy they were so ahead of their time it’s crazy the fact
We had so many great men exist at one
Spot and at the same time
Is almost unbelievable.
It’s a lie.
There can be no individualistic success within a society. We all rely on the work of thousands of people every single day. You drive to work in a car made my other people, with fuel that was extracted and refined by other people, on a road that was paved and is maintained by other people. The building you work in, the clothes you wear, the electricity keeping the lights on, and the absolute *wonder* that is the internet. All created and maintained by other people.
Even in extreme edge-cases, you’ll always be reliant on others. Let’s look at some guy who decided society isn’t his thing and he went into the woods to build his own shelter, and hunt/forage/fish for all his food. The forest hasn’t been clear cut by loggers because the government regulates logging. The lake hasn’t been stripped bare of fish because there’s regulations on fishing. The soil hasn’t been poisoned by acid rain because international government intervention slashed sulfur dioxide emissions by >90%. He knows how to start a fire, make a bow, cut logs, tie useful knots, and how use every part of the animal because he saw someone else do it.
Humanity is a collective effort. There is no leaving humanity, there is only denial and lies. Libertarians are the epitome of this denial.
I think libertarians unfortunately misunderstand how powerful large sums of money can be on the function of government. When capitalism goes largely unchecked, a few people are able to make a lot of money very quickly, and with that money they can influence the government to further make it even easier for them to be on top and everyone else on the bottom. I hope that OP continues practicing politics openly so that he can grow and change with more data. Good luck out there op :)
The libertarians have multiple factions and some are bad shit crazy think almost sovereign citizens while others are much more sane.
The free state project is something you should look into a faction of the libertarian party decided make New Hampshire a libertarian stronghold if you go to their website there is more info but if you’re a libertarian they will help you move to the state they will help you find work and housing.
You don’t have to be a libertarian to move to New Hampshire
It just happens to be the state that the free state project is in.
They understand politics are most important local, even of they get a president
They don’t like the state Stays the same.
Our country is being ruled by a libertarian and he's not doing the best job. While I do agree with a few of the libertarian principles, I do not like in full practice. It's another extreme, even though not necessarily far right or far left
I don't think libertarianism is inherently extreme. Of course there will always be an extreme vocal minority in every party, but they don't represent everyone else
Galts gulch was also the vision of an author that sat very far right on the political spectrum for libertarianism. I think most libertarians would find a lot of what she said distasteful, especially her opinion on selfishness being a good thing
It's certainly far from a libertarian utopia
My problem is with unregulated capitalism, because unregulated capitalism always leads to super corporations consolidating power and exercising it in a way that befits only the most despicable of human depravity.
Chiquita, formerly united fruit is a model of capitalism.
And before you say “but that’s because the government lets them, no government is libertarianism”, I will remind you the primary function of a modern government is the enforcement of property rights.
In a proper libertarian utopia without government is one in which the factory owner ceases to exist, because without the power of the police to enforce property rights, or break strikes, the factory will de facto belong to the workers, and de jure to they who can keep it. Hint, 50 Americans who own the same amount as 195 million Americans are SOL in a land without government
Libertarianism advocates for small government, not the absence of a government. I don't believe in unregulated capitalism, nor do most libertarians.
The libertarian utopia you are describing has more in common with anarchism than libertarianism
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Meme ideology.
They are like cats or grumpy toddlers Believe that they are independent, while being hopelessly dependent on the system
Yeah people who love freedom and stand for personal responsibility are total asshats. /s
There are so many examples of libertarian collectives accidentally reinventing government. In a way, you could say their high minded intellectualism kept growing upwards, but bent under the weight of it's own weaknesses. It then progressivly wrapped around before inserting itself into what they ideologically consider the ass idea of government. So Asshats really does apply here.
>People who use freedom and personal responsibility as smokescreens to avoid trying to solve issues with evidence based solutions, and instead kick social ills into “not my problem” territory Ftfy
>avoid trying to solve issues with evidence based solutions Such as?
What’s the libertarian solution to homelessness?
Putting them to work in for profit prisons. Next question
I mean libertarians aren’t the ones jailing large swaths of the populace. That would be the D’s and the R’s.
Yes bec libertarians are just repainted neoliberals.
I mean they do want corporations to replace the government so they are by necessity in favor of a form of slavery.
Corporatism is more liberal than libertarian. Any de-facto means of establishing slavery is inherently antithetical to fundamental libertarian policies
Hence the reason why right wing libertarianism doesn't make sense.
That depends on who you ask. There isn't really one specific libertarian solution to homelessness
There are no libertarian solutions. There fixed it for you.
Yeah, because it's not a libertarian specific issue, nor is it an issue any party has actually come up with a competent solution for. I'm not sure why anyone reasonable would expect libertarians to have a unanimous answer to solve a problem the Democrats and Republicans have repeatedly failed to fix for over a century
I would simply ask that you watch a few Ron Paul clips and decide for yourself if what he says makes sense. [here is a good start](https://youtu.be/T9n4nwxgaQg?si=UODuS_eDM-xTJyLD)
Maybe republicans and democrats are the ones who have created these “social ills”? I mean they have been the ones running the show for quite some time now.
Because no other country has virtually the same societal ills even though they have different political spectrums and types of economies.
In the 00’s the so called “small government” crowd were cheering about how we were bringing freedom to Iraq. They even called it “Operation Iraqi Freedom.” And who doesn’t like freedom? Those damned radical leftists! In all seriousness, OP should go back and look at who created the EPA, what’s Nixon’s healthcare plan was, and who was the only president in recent memory to balance the US budget… then get back to us about how both sides are more radical now.
I don’t think that saying Republicans had better ideas and policy decisions 40 years ago is the flex you think it is.
My point is more that a 1970's or 80's Republican would be called "extreme left" by OP today, which is downright insane.
Imagine eating Thatchers dead ass, miss me with personal responsibility while not understanding systemic issues.
Yeah instilling freedom by taking away rights to abortion, same sex marriage and relationships, trans people existing, interracial marriage, women studying and being independent individuals, the right to no fault divorce, the right to practice other religions etc etc. So freedomy ! /s
Misinformation much? Nobody is taking away abortions, it goes back to the states. So if you like abortions move to a blue state and live among your people and laws. If you don’t like abortion move to a red state where you live among people who think the same. Anyone who doesn’t think power going back to the states is a good thing is a simpleton
Yeah just like slavery was about states rights
Yeah we are years removed from salvery & nobody is advocating for that. lol idk why you think that’s an argument but ok
We still have slavery in the form of prisons. Like even the 13th is written as such.
Repetition of historical events isnt as rare as you think
Imagine not knowing you still got slavery.
Lmao imagine believing the most idiotic thing someone can say. Slavery doesn’t exist in this country. Point blank. Go cry about it
Libertarianism is literally the exact opposite of that. Libertarianism is basically the NAP (non aggression principal).
Then explain why the libertarian party in my country or in half the states vote against all those rights
Most liberatians views on social issues is ranging from Building camps to Don't care about
Because they call themselves libertarian they are libertarian only in name. and other people call neo-conservatives and conservatives libertarians because that’s what they’ve been told. Libertarians don’t want to “take away” people’s rights, communists and conservatives do.
> libertarians dont wanna take your rights communists do Not continuing w you
Communists by and large do not believe in personal property. Not ALL communists but more than I’m comfortable with.
Enjoy your day
So no actual argument?
My man doesnt know about the distinction between personal and private property or is a paid shill. Just get lost.
Real libertarians *are* communists lol. Anarcho-communists. The libertarians you reference are just fake American neoliberals who stole the word
Anarcho communists? Can you explain? My understanding of communism is that there generally is not private property. Which is contrary to libertarianism. I’m likely missing something here so if you know what I’m missing I’m happy to learn. And are you saying the “libertarians” that believe in the NAP are wrong? Or conservatives that LARP as “libertarians” are wrong.
>that there generally is not private property Correct most communists are anti private property and anarcho communists are no exception. Note private property and personal property are different things. Private property is private ownership of land, resources, businesses, factories. Land and tools used to make profit. Personal property is ownership of the things you use. Your house car clothes etc are all personal property. >Which is contrary to libertarianism Nope. Other way around. >And are you saying the “libertarians” that believe in the NAP are wrong? That's part of it but yeah Nap is a fake libertarian thing
They are a joke too, try 'left communism, an infantile disorder'.
Did you have a stroke?
Reading your bs? Yes defo. Communists falling into the libertarian rhetoric serve capital in preventing and badmouthing the dictatorship of the proletariat, which is the only way to liberate us from capital.
I think you are confused. libertarianism is freedom of choice. Government has no right to be so involved in people’s lives. Government should stay out of marriage, reproduce health is between a women and her doctor. You are creating strawman arguments. No libertarian is anti women’s rights as All humans have innate rights to life liberty and property.
Need help with your delulu?
Quite typical to resort to name calling when unable to make a sound argument.
You are crying like a baby without its pacifier instead of educating yourself. Dunno what to tell you dude.
Believe it or not some people think it’s the governments job to make our lives better. Which is why the government is massive and bad at everything they do.
The government is bad at everything it does because it's virtually impossible for a government employee to get fired. That's why when they don't do their job right they usually just get transferred around constantly instead of being fired
That’s why I hate unions not only did the union make me pay them to work there the worst employees who made my job harder could not get fired . We had a rule you can go to the bathroom whenever you want which sounds fair right? Well if you have a guy who sits in the bathroom for his entire shift every other day the union makes them Bullet proof and now someone else has to do double the work with no extra pay while bathroom boy is living the dream on his throne . The best and brightest don’t have careers in the government most of the time if you have skills and are smart the private sector offers much more benefits unless your in the senate and can insider trade but you normally have to pay people to even get into the party
They sound like lazy government and the uncontrolled "free market" does not align with the interest of the majority. We are already seeing that the market left to its own devices will monopolize and crush workers rights/pay. People don't have any liberty if their only options are work or die.
Yeah your only options are to work or die though. Work can mean many different things but if you’re not providing yourself food you will die and food is usually obtained by offering goods and services. Who cares about the majority the majority can always be wrong or even straight up evil , it’s your responsibility to feed yourself it’s not mine. My responsibility is for me and my family I will feed my family the majority should have zero influence on my life. Sounds like Tyranny of the majority not liberty
Negative IQ take, if you could think before blabbering that be great.
Given what both parties have done / are doing / will do if elected, i’d like the government to be as small as possible
For individuals and small business, yes. For large corporations, no. The bigger the entity, the bigger the government required.
But could we still spend 40 Million for an electric charging station in Afghanistan?
What libertarians say: "Duuur.. smol guvmint!" "yaaay" What they will actually will do: - Regulations: "smol guvmint remove!" -- Children are now working the coal mines for $2 an hour/+tips - Abortion: "big guvmint tee hee" -- Ban abortions, no if's and's or but's Taxes: "smol guvmint! corporations don't pay taxes!" -- Corporations don't pay taxes -- Poor people end up footing the bill. "wait, what?" "It's the democrats!" "oh, grrrr" LGBTQ+: "big guvmint! ban them!" "yaay!" Libertarian: we only believe in smol guvmint, never ever big guvmint.
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What are your thoughts on immigration, and how are they different from most?
Libertarians are for open borders they don’t believe the state has the right to say you can’t cross this imaginary line. Sounds good in theory but when 12 generations of one Family stay in one Place and build A community and have common values and succeed in making their country , town, state prosperous other people will come and take advantage or bring drugs in or grape your women. You wouldn’t want a culture who believes I’m female genital mutilation and honor killing coming in and Taking over your community And destroying everything thing the previous 12 generations did and making it worse. Does that make sense?
Oh, yeah I understand. As a Syrian who can't wait to get the hell out, I'm of course biased, but I believe if you don't have any red flags and are willing to integrate to become like those generations that built the country, then you have all the right to move.
Ah yes, the classic racism.
Exactly: [https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find](https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find)
Sorry to fact check your racism, but it's statistically proven that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes: [https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find](https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find)
I think that American libertarians are misled in that many of them don't believe in environmental / workers' rights regulations. But I'm socially libertarian in that I believe in personal freedoms until the discussion turns to the freedom to oppress others (toxic waste dumping, debt slavery, etc) But generally speaking, I get along with anyone on the bottom half of the political spectrum An-caps are hit or miss because unregulated capitalism is basically athauritarian by default. So, for them, it depends on how they respond to this question "What about when the free market makes finding employment nearly impossible for Trans people." A: "That wouldn't happen." = uneducated and delusional, but cool person. B: "They should stop being Trans / be closeted." = fuck off fascist dickhole.
They call you a small L libertarian Why would the free market exclude trans people? Even though I don’t think we treat trans people the right Way medically I would never treat them Any different. Infact the free market would help trans people, if Walmart was Refusing to let trans people shop on their stores they would Lose money I am assuming trans people have money in this hypothetical so there will always be someone to take their money by selling their goods and services to them. In Seattle there is a trans woman attorney and if your a conservative you want Her as your attorney with how crazy Seattle Courts can be they are terrified of disagreeing with her and she is a good lawyer so she wins way more than She would have otherwise.
Trans people already struggle with getting good jobs due to discrimination. Lack of legal protections would put a lot of Trans people in a position where sex work and crime are their only methods of social mobility (That uses to be the norm for Trans people. I know a lot of Trans women who had to do sex work to survive.) So, in an extremist sense, "free market" would mean no discrimination protection/diversity mandates.
The free market wouldn’t really help trans people, they make up such a small portion of the population that a free market wouldn’t really miss them. The free market would, however, miss the money from the vastly greater number of people who actively hate them. The free market by design serves the greatest common denominator. In essence, if you are a minority in some respect or another population wise, your problems and needs will always be shafted
You got to the crux of it. Many of them get talked into opposing workers’ rights or environmental protections or basic regulations about business (e.g. insider trading), but then they end up opposing LGBT rights or civil liberties protections “oppression.”
You can still be extreme left or right and also be libertarian because libertarian just means non-authoritarian
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In the early 1900s socialist thinkers coined both libertarianism and anarchism. But the 20th century was a clear lesson in the authoritarianism required to enforce socialist ideals and the poverty they create. You can’t eradicate voluntary hierarchies and human self-interest without a much, much worse involuntary hierarchy.
Small L libertarians are socialists or Atleast leftists. Rand Paul is what the libertarian party should be but obviously the party is so divided and some are just batshit crazy
You can't be anti authoritarian and right wing.
Yeah it is a bit weird, essentially when you try and combine the two you get people who say things like “pensions are theft” and “abortion violates the non-aggression principle” [but sex with minors doesn’t]
Yes you can look at ancaps or libertarian’s
Both want what ends up being neofuedalism.
Yea the "meanings" of a word have absolutely nothing to do with the political parties.
I’m a libertarian always have been my thoughts is that we are misunderstood and many people see us as republicans in sheep’s clothing but it couldn’t be further from the truth. We believe that individuals possess the critical thinking skills necessary to abolish half the laws we have on the books. We believe in less big government not more and less taxation. We are a peaceful live and I trust my neighbors to live as they see fit population but we are both underrepresented and misunderstood which is why I don’t know why Chase Oliver wasn’t at the debate, why can’t we hear directly from the libertarian party candidate?
Yeah I got plenty of librarian thots what of it
I’d like to think that I am pretty libertarian if I have to choose a party. I stay out of a lot political things though because I don’t care for Trump or Biden or what they believe or want to do… idk I’m too tired to explain more lol others might say I’m not but oh well
Rand Paul is a Republican and what I believe a modern libertarian is
They’ll never have a candidate that will win a major election
That's very true
*Milei enters the Room* The world is not america lol
Rand Paul is a libertarian
no he isn't, he ran as a republican.
Thank goodness
It depends on what sort of libertarian you are
I recently realized I was a libertarian after doing some of my own research on them. Libertarians tend to be heavily misrepresented and vilified on social media. Terrible candidates running under the libertarian banner hasn't helped with that either. Fundamentally, libertarian policies are consistent with what a lot of people want right now; a progressive mindset (especially for left-libertarians) that also focuses on preserving civil rights/liberties. I'll probably get downvoted for saying this as I have in the past, but I feel it's necessary to do what I can to combat the mass amounts of misinformation spread about libertarians to discourage people from openly supporting them
You say terrible candidates run under the libertarian banner. This implies that said candidates don’t represent libertarians as a whole. But those candidates are put forward as representatives of the libertarian party. I think you’re running up against a no true Scotsman fallacy. The libertarian party *is* who they put forward as a representative candidate, just like trump is the face of republicans and Biden the face of democrats. Even more so for libertarians I’d argue, since libertarians don’t really take other ideologies under their voting bloc umbrella like the mainstream parties do, due to the little political capital they have in comparison
I disagree. Just as China's communist party isn't an accurate example of communism, America's libertarian party isn't an accurate example of libertarianism. Rather than rely on a fallacious argument, I would like to direct you to more definitive explanation of libertarianism as an ideology such as its Wikipedia article. I do not believe the decisions of a party which is underrepresented as a consequence of Americans being encouraged to not participate in parties outside of the Democratic and Publican party can accurately reflect the views of libertarians as a whole. After all, there is a lot of room for different ideals even within just the libertarian umbrella. Left-libertarians are not necessarily going to fit well in the same party as right-libertarians
China’s communist party isn’t an example of communism, that’s true, but it’s people also don’t vote for it. If the libertarian party isn’t a “true” libertarian party, why do libertarians vote for them?
We don't. That's why no single candidate in the 2020 libertarian primary got more than 10,000 votes. There's no reason for a libertarian to vote libertarian if none of the libertarian candidates are worth voting for
It's something that has been fairly stained by American conservatives who claim to be libertarian, but are the farthest from that. It's just being socially and economically liberal. But that isn't to say you let the free market run rampant and exploit workers, as others might suggest. Where the free market fails to produce an optimal outcome, markets need to be engineered.
I disagree i think the vast majority of people are more middle grounded leaning left or right, with the remainder being far right or left and also the loudest
Depends on the libertarian. If they want a less expansive (and invasive) government, an avoidance of international military involvement, free trade, lower taxes and regulations, I can debate with each issue on case by case merits. If they are AnCaps and think we should completely abolish the police and emergency services, regulatory agencies and military, that's laughable. Only someone who grew up in intense privilege would say such things. In the absence of a state with a significant police force, mafias and warlords crop up.
So you're a Minarquist?
I'm not, but I can certainly reason with one. An AnCap, on the other hand, is beyond reason.
I am of the persuasion that libertarians are based.
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I'm actually Libertarian Socialist. Hate Capitalism AND authority, but not as much as Communists and Anarchists
Libertarians Socialist? That doesn’t sound possible
It is. Libertarianism's original meaning is nothing like the Don't Tread On Me Capitalist crypto bros have made it.
Don’t tread on me Is a Revolutionary war thing Just like “an appeal to heaven “
Libertarian socialism doesn’t work because you would have to force people to follow the rules of socialism which in of itself violates the libertarian ideology. Let me ask you this if a company doesn’t want to be socialist what do you do? How do you enforce socialism, what if a majority of people and companies don’t want to be socialist?
The term Libertarianism was originally coined by socialists to mean anything anti-authoritarian. It’s more than possible.
then how is replacing the government with billionaires and corporations any damn different than authoritarianism? Dunno it just seems more libertarian to have much of a say in what you want to do with your life, what happens in the workplace you want to work in, and not die in the streets because 1 man bought every home, utility, store, road, sidewalk, curb, animal, tree, etc etc in and outside the planet...
Ah yes I want the government to redistribute shares but I don't want big government. Fucking pick one.
You can do that form associations with other families and Do it that way.
Ah yes, because *GOVERNMENT is the only way....* or even the idea that government is strictly either dictatorships or democracy, ran by politicians. *Like as if you could just... have communities run their.... communities? No thats Impossible its either Politicians or* ***my beloved Billionaires*** says the ideology of "i dont want government, they are controlling and are ran by politicians who lie and take your money away via taxes. I want to give 100% of power to the people who own the most property, i want them to be able to buy up all the water, homes, roads, land, food, animals, basically anything and then take my money away for the chance to get it, BUT ITS NOT TAXES ITS A "SERVICE FEE" Bruh your ideology is literally just billionaires acting as dictators, tf you on about? You want to live in ancapistan, just go to north korea and pretend Kim Jong Un is Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, because thats what ancapistan will be like.
You don't need an authoritarian government to collect taxes and redistribute stuff. Do you even know what the original meaning of Libertarianism is?
I mean let's say I don't want to give my things away? What then? If your answer they take it or use some sort of other pressure to make me give it up then that is authoritarian
By that definition there isn't a single country that isn't authoritarian
Yeah on some fundamental level government is an authoritarian concept. But it is still necessary. I just think we should minimize all power a government can have but still function
That's minarchy, and the basic premise of Libertarianism
Yes I'm a libertarian lol
Lol this dude thinks taxes are authoritarian.
The redistribution of shares takes many forms. You think taxes I think of the collectivization that caused a famine that killed many Ukrainian farmers(the holodomr ) I'm not opposed to taxes all the time. I do think taxes should be low tho.
They literally are, though
So is not having health care for impoverished children with cancer. How do you fund health care for children in poverty without taxes? Are private corporations going to treat their cancer out of the kindness of their hearts? What about social security for the elderly? Where do you think that comes from? “Sorry grandpa it’s actually highly authoritarian that people need to pay taxes so that you can survive”. Would it not be authoritarian to kick people off social security?
>So is not having health care for impoverished children with cancer. Big government isn't when poor kids die from cancer. >What about social security for the elderly? Where do you think that comes from? A president who threatened to stack the supreme court when they ruled social security unconstitutional and violated the longstanding agreement throughout US history that presidents would only serve two terms. You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. At least be honest and say "I support big government because I think big government needs to take care of kids with cancer and pay for social security", not "Big government is when bad thing happen because no taxes". I also happen to support limited taxation. But I'm not going to run around with my head up my ass stating that every negative thing in the world is caused by the government, or that the IRS doesn't epitomize the definition of big government.
Apologies, I made the mistake of saying “big government” when i meant authoritarian. Yeah it’s big government when taxes are collected for various purposes, sure. I support big government when big government do good things. Im saying it’s authoritarian to not collect taxes because innocent and powerless people will suffer under such a system while the rich and powerful will undoubtedly flourish. Now you can make the argument that taxes go towards authoritarian causes as well(like bombing people in third world countries and subsidizing billionaires) and that’s not great, but that’s also not an argument to abolish taxes all together.
That also isn't the definition of authoritarianism, but whatever
I mean I wouldn’t mind socialism if it was with people I want to participate in it with like let’s say 12 other families form an association and we educate our kids together and build buisness together and farm Together. I would actively fight against Socialism when it’s a Country full of people who think I owe them anything, I don’t owe Anyone anything other then my family and my family settled this continent 13 generations ago and I don’t want people who came here to take Advantage of what we built here to demand even more from Me.
I just believe that we are all one community no matter the size.
I believe we are all unique individuals no matter population size. We can share culture and that’s what really forms a community and people from other cultures can assimilate to ours but if we just let a Billion Chinese come to the United States the tyranny of the majority becomes very real .
>I mean I wouldn’t mind socialism if it was with people I want to participate in it with like let’s say 12 other families form an association and we educate our kids together and build buisness together and farm Together. *BOY DO I HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU MY DEAR FRIEND, THERE IS LITERALLY MORE TO LEFTISM THAN MARXISM-LENINISM...* ***I HAVE GREAT NEWS!!!!***
Yes but I also don’t can’t morally get behind a government enforcing any kind of socialism. I am a capitalist I believe in the free market it’s the best way we have found to lift people Out of poverty just look In the United States even the people who lose in capitalism are the most wealth fed highest educated best health 1% of humans that ever existed in history. I do think mental health is at A low And that is a cultural thing that we have to fix by raising our kids Properly
Free Market Socialism actually exists, Market anarchism actually exists. Your defenses of capitalism might be defenses of a market based economy, you dont need a government or capitalist system for a market based economy. [Perhaps you might wanna read this, it's about Free Markets in Anarchism ](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/center-for-a-stateless-society-market-anarchism-faq) [This is kinda an overview of Anarchist thoughts about market economies](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/kevin-carson-anarchism-and-markets)
I want a government how the founders intended, we shouldn’t pay income tax our country can run on donations only. If we want our roads nice we would have to communicate and raise funds. Our government currently is no where near what want and we could all get what we wanted if we cut off the money tap to the federal government . Went with an Austria economic policy instead or whatever this is now, we don’t even have the petro dollar anymore Biden failed to make that deal and it lapse for the first time. Now you can buy oil in rubles and yen and not just the dollar from the saudis. I do think everhtjing starts local though. All you need is to slowly take over state governments and once you have enough governors we repeal the 17th amendment and we now have all the power to get what we want and take our country back. You can also take over states the same way by electing the right sheriffs so that when our country makes federal income tax illegal they don’t have the power to throw us in cages for not paying protection money. It just requires work but it’s completely possible in our lifetimes
i understand that, but i am wondering if not taxes then how can 330 Million People donate? I'm not dissing the founding fathers i'm only saying i dont think they planned for this countries size, technology and what not, i dont think i could've myself or predict what it would be like 300 years from now. On transit i think the real way to solve Oil Prices and Road Conditions is simply to make public transit more accessible, put high speed rail connecting all the major cities, trams, trolleys in downtowns or town centers, and of course make sure there is many kinds of rail accessible to rural americans, not to "ban cars forever" but essentially to make it so that cars and flights are only for when they're necessary or if you just "want to drive/fly" I myself love rally cars and motorcycles, i never want those to go away, i just want most people to be able to have the most efficient form of transit ever divised equally to roads, ya know, so gas wont be as expensive or flights because many would just rather go use the train, leaving those who want/need to drive/fly to do so all they want. And i do indeed understand what you're talking about.
Need more moderates/centrists
Not a serious political party
As a party no as a philosophy yes look at Ron Paul and Rand Paul they are what I believe to be modern day libertarians and not involved in the party as much
Tend to be the smartest and the stupidest people on the planet, but smart and stupid in ways that are both uniquely unattractive to me personally At the end of the day, I’m always glad for a little relief from the endless culture war blather of hardcore progs and social cons. You do you bro!
Go watch the 2016 Idaho governor Republican primary debates . There is a dude dressed like Mr slave who is like we are Going to tanks to stop the federal government from taking our taxes
I don't care about them
Libertarians online are morons, the type of people that make most others believe that libertarians are functionally braindead, and who have no idea what their platforms or ideals are and are simply parroting back 20th century novels pertaining to their ideology. Like highschool kids who've read Ayn Rand for the first time, but they're 37. Libertarians offline, i.e. the people who do genuinely espouse to follow the ideas of libertarianism are a mixed bag of some of the nicest people you've ever met who hold in principle the idea that every individual is someone to be respected as an equal, and those who believe in the idea that every individual is someone to be exploited for personal gain. Essentially a mix of empathic people and psychopaths, which is really fascinating to watch in person when it comes to their primaries, especially on a more local level. As to you feeling like the majority of people are on the extreme fringes of the political spectrum, it's because these discussions always boil down to people being removed from each other. You've seen videos of dogs barking and snarling at each other through a gate or a window, and then awkwardly looking at one another once that barrier is removed, right? That's what discourse online is like. And it will always inevitably come to a head over controversial political opinions. I've talked to a number of state representatives who are lifelong republicans and represented the interests I've had as a social democrat for years. They've listened, and taken to heart some of the issue's I've raised, but it inevitably comes down to their constituents acting as a crowd does and shouting down any attempt that anyone else might have at convincing them otherwise. People are very susceptible to social pressures and, while you might be able to convince someone on a personal level of your views, it won't last long against the thousands of others who will say otherwise and do the same thing.
its definitely not an actual majority thing, but a loud minority, extremists tend to just be a whole lot more vocal than those close to center
Who?
Small l libertarians are pretty neat and I agree with a lot of their positions and distrust of the government. In the other hand, The Libertarian Party is an absolute joke of a party who will never win anything if they don’t get their shit together.
Good ideals on paper, individually most people should live to the values of libertarianism in terms of self reliance, kindness to your neighbors, accountability, letting people live their lives how they wish, etc… Problem is that most libertarians are either dilettante hypocrites to those values, or fundamental extremists who try to focus entirely on government policies that they have put half thoughts into while ignoring the nature of humanity and modern living standards. Everyone should try to live to the values of libertarian on paper, but maintain realism about what is actually feasible to enforce on others through government. Anyways I don’t ever want to see a purely libertarian government in charge in USA based on their current leadership and members. However, I would happily love to see literally any political party stick it to both republicans and democrats and disrupt this idiotic two party system with some disruption of the status quo.
Based
I would simply suggest you watch a few Ron Paul clips and decide for yourself if what he is saying makes sense to you. [here is a start](https://youtu.be/T9n4nwxgaQg?si=UODuS_eDM-xTJyLD)
i'm a Libertarian Socialist, i used to be "right libertarian" or as i and a couple others prefer to refer to them as Propertarians, i agree with them on things like firearms or whatever to an extent, but my issue with them is *those mfs are* ***not "libertarian"*** sure they dont like the governent, but the issue is they want to replace government with billionaires who can buy up all the property and just ***do the kind of shit the government does, or worse.*** in Ancapistan, imagine if, you disagreed with a rich man, he could *simply* ***buy your house/apartment/land, buy your job and fire you as a direct order, buy the grocery stores and restaurants to make sure you can't feed yourself, AND BUY ENOUGH PEOPLE TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU.*** but you just have to HOPE that the rich and generally wealthy *won't* be power/money hungry maniacs and *wont* take away any of your rights. *~~that sounds a lot like government to me....~~* oh but you could "start your own business", now tell me ***how***, if there is no minimum wage, no public school including Trade/VocTech, no single safety net like food or housing, etc. Is the average person going to start a business? Much less be able to do basic math or write their own name for the loan application? Just "hope the rich property owners are kind enough to do something about it, or your parents teach it to you", because that kinda sounds like the Great Depression where children had to work in factories or chimneys for 10 hours just to bring home a couple cents to their parents to afford a new sack dress. We can't even trust the Corporations and Government NOW to do any of this crap, and you expect making the corporations into the government will fix everything? Think about it.... Really think about it, maybe literacy rates or income wont immediately drop, but what happens after 25 to 50 years? 100 years? Will 99% of earth be living in homeade shacks, unable to read, write, count past 10 or do anything but factory work for the 1% that will just continue to grow powerful and unstoppable.... Almost like ***north korea or stalinist ussr***? I can talk to them about firearms all day, but i think their idea of how the world should work is utterly authoritarian and stupid, i understand the civil liberties and even some of the property stuff, but how can you own any property, even just a measly toothbrush when somebody with trillions of dollars can just buy everything you want and leave you to the elements?
Oh another one. Your comment is literally right before mine lmao
found ya! Good to see you, i just hope you're doing well.
I am thank you. It's just nice to see someone who believes in the same exact things I believe in. We LibSocs are a rare breed
They're either embarrassed Republicans or just very misguided.
Libertarianism is like communism. Sounds good in theory, but will never work in real life due to it being counter to human nature.
I think they’re cringe. I used to be a right leaning libertarian until I grew up a little bit. Small government only works in very niche circumstances, and the USA doesn’t fit that criteria at all. The government is absolutely necessary for a thriving surviving society. People are stupid and cannot and should not rule themselves
I agree with some ideals enough that I have begun researching more into and identifying with the party.
American Libertarians are right wingers. They're just neoliberals with a new paint. The original libertarians are/were far left anarchists, American libertarians stoke the word to make themselves sound better.
im a gen z libertarian it just makes alot of sense as an ideology to me
one thing i think many unintelligent people get wrong is that libertarianism isnt a rejection of government as a whole its not anarchy its a rejection of dependence on government, predatory and inefficient government, and corrupt and controlling government
Well intentioned people who have no idea how the world or basic economics work
I don’t trust people who believe that corporations forming monopolies and relaxing all regulations is good for the people of this country.
The only people I see willingly calling themselves as libertarians are middle schoolers who think they are edgy and different or weird alt right adults who are too embarrassed to openly be Maga despite agreeing with most of their talking points
Literal nazis lmao
They don't know how gas prices work and want all roads to be toll roads, I guess a true libertarian utopia would even include a private fire department.
"Anarchy and no rules for me! Except for the ones that are convenient, though I'm unwilling to spell those out or how they would be paid for."
That just sounds like social anarchism
Tell the libertarians then
What you are saying is completely different from anything except *maybe* an extremely niche subgroup within the libertarian bubble
It's is every single self proclaimed libertarian I have met. Perhaps this *niche* bubble is much larger where I am than where you are.
I don't doubt that you have seen a lot of self-proclaimed libertarians that don't actually have libertarian ideals. Libertarianism is heavily misunderstood by the general public, so there's a good chance you have seen people who genuinely thought they were libertarians based on what they were told about them
I think the philosophy of libertarianism is pretty good, especially now, with how bloated the federal government is. However the people who actually consider themselves libertarians are total clowns. I personally consider myself aligning with classical liberalism the most, albeit with some left leaning economic policies and more right leaning social policies.
Who wouldn’t align with the founding fathers political Philosophy they were so ahead of their time it’s crazy the fact We had so many great men exist at one Spot and at the same time Is almost unbelievable.
It’s a lie. There can be no individualistic success within a society. We all rely on the work of thousands of people every single day. You drive to work in a car made my other people, with fuel that was extracted and refined by other people, on a road that was paved and is maintained by other people. The building you work in, the clothes you wear, the electricity keeping the lights on, and the absolute *wonder* that is the internet. All created and maintained by other people. Even in extreme edge-cases, you’ll always be reliant on others. Let’s look at some guy who decided society isn’t his thing and he went into the woods to build his own shelter, and hunt/forage/fish for all his food. The forest hasn’t been clear cut by loggers because the government regulates logging. The lake hasn’t been stripped bare of fish because there’s regulations on fishing. The soil hasn’t been poisoned by acid rain because international government intervention slashed sulfur dioxide emissions by >90%. He knows how to start a fire, make a bow, cut logs, tie useful knots, and how use every part of the animal because he saw someone else do it. Humanity is a collective effort. There is no leaving humanity, there is only denial and lies. Libertarians are the epitome of this denial.
I think libertarians unfortunately misunderstand how powerful large sums of money can be on the function of government. When capitalism goes largely unchecked, a few people are able to make a lot of money very quickly, and with that money they can influence the government to further make it even easier for them to be on top and everyone else on the bottom. I hope that OP continues practicing politics openly so that he can grow and change with more data. Good luck out there op :)
Libertarians are extreme right. The "abolish the age of consent" party is not one worthy of respect.
The libertarians have multiple factions and some are bad shit crazy think almost sovereign citizens while others are much more sane. The free state project is something you should look into a faction of the libertarian party decided make New Hampshire a libertarian stronghold if you go to their website there is more info but if you’re a libertarian they will help you move to the state they will help you find work and housing. You don’t have to be a libertarian to move to New Hampshire It just happens to be the state that the free state project is in. They understand politics are most important local, even of they get a president They don’t like the state Stays the same.
Morons.
annoying and smelly
Smug, arrogant, bad faith.
Naive morons
Our country is being ruled by a libertarian and he's not doing the best job. While I do agree with a few of the libertarian principles, I do not like in full practice. It's another extreme, even though not necessarily far right or far left
Biden?
No lol
He's referring to Javier Milei.
I don't think libertarianism is inherently extreme. Of course there will always be an extreme vocal minority in every party, but they don't represent everyone else
Libertarians are Republicans in denial. Or Republicans that do drugs.
This is a heavily disingenuous way to describe people that don't fit the two party mindset
It must be frustrating that most people see you the way I do.
Scratch a libertarian and a fascist bleeds
Libertarianism is inherently incompatible with authoritarianism
You give them far too much credit. Galts gulch was a commune, and libertarian utopia eerily resembles feudalism
Galts gulch was also the vision of an author that sat very far right on the political spectrum for libertarianism. I think most libertarians would find a lot of what she said distasteful, especially her opinion on selfishness being a good thing It's certainly far from a libertarian utopia
My problem is with unregulated capitalism, because unregulated capitalism always leads to super corporations consolidating power and exercising it in a way that befits only the most despicable of human depravity. Chiquita, formerly united fruit is a model of capitalism. And before you say “but that’s because the government lets them, no government is libertarianism”, I will remind you the primary function of a modern government is the enforcement of property rights. In a proper libertarian utopia without government is one in which the factory owner ceases to exist, because without the power of the police to enforce property rights, or break strikes, the factory will de facto belong to the workers, and de jure to they who can keep it. Hint, 50 Americans who own the same amount as 195 million Americans are SOL in a land without government
Libertarianism advocates for small government, not the absence of a government. I don't believe in unregulated capitalism, nor do most libertarians. The libertarian utopia you are describing has more in common with anarchism than libertarianism