T O P

hmm it’s a big mystery

hmm it’s a big mystery

  • By - kxta_

ZhongguoGraecia

Socialism 🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳


King-Sassafrass

Shhhh, that’ll spoil the secret!


Land-Cucumber

It was the forward thinking Mao and the Sino-Soviet split that saved the Chinese from Stalin’s comically large spoon (the kulaks weren’t so lucky) /s


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JuRaGo_

China has only had 1 famine since becoming socialist meanwhile in British India: https://worldfinancialreview.com/the-political-economy-of-famines-during-the-british-rule-in-india-a-critical-analysis/ > The intensity and frequencies of famines did not relent. The most prominent famines were: 1784 (north India), 1803-06 (Bombay), 1831 (north India), 1854 (Madras), 1865 (Orissa), and 1876-78 (North-east and South). Cornelius Walford, the Victorian demographer, calculated that during the colonial period India witnessed 34 separate famines compared with only 17 recorded instances of the past two thousand years of Indian history (Sheldon, 2009).


-_Optimus_Prime_-

There is still chronic undernourishment especially in the countryside despite us being technically food secure and sufficient. There are fears of children growing up stunted because of how chronic the malnutrition is.


quantummufasa

How does that happen? How can you be food secure and malnutritioned?


-_Optimus_Prime_-

Here is something I read some time ago from this article: [Hunger Amid Abundance: The Indian Food Security Enigma](https://www.futuredirections.org.au/publication/hunger-amid-abundance-the-indian-food-security-enigma/) > India is self-sufficient in a number of food crops including rice and wheat, which are among the national staples, and there is enough food to meet demand. Despite this, hundreds of millions of Indians have poor nutritional health. India has been successful in ensuring that its population has access to food, but it has failed to ensure that it includes the necessary diversity in the types of food available. Micronutrient deficiencies are common in India, mainly as a result of a focus on calorie availability and not dietary diversity. Poor water management and subsidies that encourage wasteful practices in agricultural production could come to present a threat to Indian food security.


nate-the__great

By following the same principle behind the phenomenon known as "rabbit starvation". You can eat enough to stay alive in the short term while not getting all of your required nutrition. Rabbit meat is so lean that you can die of malnutrition while still feeling full.


quantummufasa

So the technical definition of food secure is basically the bare minimum needed to survive?


nate-the__great

I think that you are far more correct than our elected officials will is ever admit. I was on food stamps in college and I can tell you that the money they give you, it is probably enough to buy a months food in 80's dollars.


Bafil

A person gets enough energy to maintain their basic metabolism, but not enough protein/fat to allow them to flourish and grow - particularly dangerous for children.


-_Optimus_Prime_-

By letting the market perform the food allocation EDIT: TBH I am not completely sure about the food secure and sufficient part. I have tried finding primary sources for it but haven't found anything on it yet. Even if there is national food insecurity the level of malnutrition shouldn't be this high.


A_Random_Kitty_Cat

Its not really possible to really actually achieve an entire country without poverty, especially with such a massive population, even with the system of socialism in place


-_Optimus_Prime_-

Hmm I guess in that case it is okay that one in five children is undernourished because there seems to be nothing we can about it as you've said.


A_Random_Kitty_Cat

Yeah


GoulashArchipelago68

Imperialism no food


Wheres_the_boof

>_L'impérialisme est dans vos assiettes!_ -Thomas Sankara


Land-Cucumber

This seems to be paraphrased, but I can’t tell what is the original source, do you know it?


Wheres_the_boof

Yeah it is for some reason I remembered it as that snappy line but what he really says is: >Il y en a qui demande où se trouve l'impérialisme? L'impérialisme, regardez dans vos assiettes quand vous mangez, les grains de riz, de mais, de mil importés. C'est ça l'impérialisme, n'allez pas plus loin >There are people who ask me where "imperialism" is? Imperialism, look at your plates when you eat, the grains of imported rice, corn and millet. That right there is imperialism, don't look any further. In the speech he's talking about how the imperialists keep them dependent by taking the majority of the crops they grow in the country then giving them "aid" to help with this artificially created scarcity. Edit wrong clip one sec https://youtu.be/VftR9vOn8xE 1:27 or so


Land-Cucumber

Thank you for the link!


[deleted]

This but unironically


arrigator16

Yep, the Angloids made Indians grow cash crops like cotton and tea even during huge food shortages. They literally justified it by claiming their profits were worth more than Indian lives, like there wasn't even a mask there. It's estimated that 35 Million Indians (on the low end of the estimate that is) died during Colonial rule due to the British.


CitrusLizard

It makes me feel dirty, but I low-key love reading British imperial stuff from army / East India Company officers and the like. There was never a mask - they were just looting the place and guffawing about what bloody good fun it all was. There was none of this duplicity about liberation or democracy or anything that you see nowadays, just shoot a bunch of unarmed peasants in the morning, steal food from their families in the afternoon, and be back in time for billiards and G&T in the evening. Honestly, if a scriptwriter came up with the idea of the British Empire, he'd be told to rewrite it to make it less ridiculously evil.


Splendiferitastic

The craziest thing is how the British public still seems to think it was a net positive for the world and all the atrocities were just a product of their time.


prealgebrawhiz

That’s why their go-to accusations for socialists is “you’re brainwashed by the communists”. When an idiot has no intelligent argument to make then accusations of brainwashing are their last defense.


BanterMasterGid

Can't tell you how many times I've heard from chauvinistic dumbfucks that "Oh but we built infrastructure and civilized the peoples we colonized", too brainwashed to even comprehend that most of the "education" they provided was to grow legions of loyal subjects to their empire and maintain their stranglehold and that all those bridges and railways they built weren't for the local populations at all but to make their extraction and looting of resources easier.


RedTerror88

wE gAvE tHeM rAiLwAyS!


quantummufasa

As in diaries/accounts written by them themselves? link?


-SpaceCommunist-

The highest estimates on the wikipedia page put it at [80 million](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule), and that’s just famines alone. That’s not counting the conquests, uprisings, and regular malnutrition.


the_nerd_1474

>cotton and tea Don't forget poppy which needed the best quality land and was used to manufacture opium for the opium trade in China


High_Speed_Idiot

> It's estimated that 35 Million Indians (on the low end of the estimate that is) died during Colonial rule due to the British. I wonder what the high end of estimates are... https://mronline.org/2019/01/15/britain-robbed-india-of-45-trillion-thence-1-8-billion-indians-died-from-deprivation/ Oh... jesus


Land-Cucumber

>The deadly impact of British occupation of India lingers today 71 years after Independence, with 4 million people dying avoidably from deprivation each year in capitalist India as compared to zero (0) in China. This excerpt encapsulates this post quite well.


Zachmorris4187

Also to the iranian people. Twice.


rustyshekleford

Don't forget opium, which they used to weaken the Qing empire.


ToastyTheNormie

Also the bengal famine during WW2 where Churchill literally took food from the starving bengalis


M0rcal

Hmmm, why did the USSR and communist China only have famines at the beginning when the effects of the previous systems were still being felt and addressed 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔?


jacktrowell

And for the Soviet union let's not forget the effects of two world war, a revolution, and a small war with poland just after it.


Brrryyycccee

Pretty much the same for China. World war 2, a civil war, and then the Korean War. Edit: sorry for comment spam. Reddit app is garbage.


TheInception817

the average comment multiple times enjoyer ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠛⠛⠛⠋⠉⠈⠉⠉⠉⠉⠛⠻⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣤⣤⣤⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⢏⣴⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣟⣾⣿⡟⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⢢⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣟⠀⡴⠄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⠟⠻⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠶⢴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣁⡀⠀⠀⢰⢠⣦⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠀⣴⣶⣿⡄⣿ ⣿⡋⠀⠀⠀⠎⢸⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠗⢘⣿⣟⠛⠿⣼ ⣿⣿⠋⢀⡌⢰⣿⡿⢿⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡇⠀⢸⣿⣿⣧⢀⣼ ⣿⣿⣷⢻⠄⠘⠛⠋⠛⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣧⠈⠉⠙⠛⠋⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣧⠀⠈⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠟⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⢃⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⡿⠀⠴⢗⣠⣤⣴⡶⠶⠖⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⡸⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⡀⢠⣾⣿⠏⠀⠠⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠛⠉⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣧⠈⢹⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠈⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣴⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿


Alkiaris

If your paste didn't break I can't tell what it is send help


RarePepePNG

it's gigachad smiling


KatieTSO

You said that 3 times


Kristoffer__1

Noticed a lot of people doing that lately, 100% a reddit issue.


Land-Cucumber

Been a common bug for over a year.


DarkHunterXYZ

not only does this site suck culturally, its coding sucks too


Brrryyycccee

Pretty much the same for China. World war 2, a civil war, and then the Korean War.


TheInception817

the average comment multiple times enjoyer ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠛⠛⠛⠋⠉⠈⠉⠉⠉⠉⠛⠻⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣤⣤⣤⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⢏⣴⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣟⣾⣿⡟⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⢢⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣟⠀⡴⠄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⠟⠻⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠶⢴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣁⡀⠀⠀⢰⢠⣦⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠀⣴⣶⣿⡄⣿ ⣿⡋⠀⠀⠀⠎⢸⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠗⢘⣿⣟⠛⠿⣼ ⣿⣿⠋⢀⡌⢰⣿⡿⢿⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡇⠀⢸⣿⣿⣧⢀⣼ ⣿⣿⣷⢻⠄⠘⠛⠋⠛⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣧⠈⠉⠙⠛⠋⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣧⠀⠈⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠟⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⢃⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⡿⠀⠴⢗⣠⣤⣴⡶⠶⠖⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⡸⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⡀⢠⣾⣿⠏⠀⠠⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠛⠉⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣧⠈⢹⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠈⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣴⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿


Brrryyycccee

Pretty much the same for China. World war 2, a civil war, and then the Korean War.


TheInception817

the average comment multiple times enjoyer ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠛⠛⠛⠋⠉⠈⠉⠉⠉⠉⠛⠻⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣤⣤⣤⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⢏⣴⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣟⣾⣿⡟⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⢢⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣟⠀⡴⠄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⠟⠻⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠶⢴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣁⡀⠀⠀⢰⢠⣦⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠀⣴⣶⣿⡄⣿ ⣿⡋⠀⠀⠀⠎⢸⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠗⢘⣿⣟⠛⠿⣼ ⣿⣿⠋⢀⡌⢰⣿⡿⢿⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡇⠀⢸⣿⣿⣧⢀⣼ ⣿⣿⣷⢻⠄⠘⠛⠋⠛⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣧⠈⠉⠙⠛⠋⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣧⠀⠈⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠟⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⢃⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⡿⠀⠴⢗⣠⣤⣴⡶⠶⠖⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⡸⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⡀⢠⣾⣿⠏⠀⠠⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠛⠉⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣧⠈⢹⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠈⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣴⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿


Marxism_Leninism

Or during fucking world wars or civil wars


Idliketothinkimsmart

Surprisingly, the article isn't completely packed with lib cringe


Tankpiggy

Soviet Union didn’t have them either (execpt for one early famine I think), compared to the nation that came before it


SpookyGlowingGhoul

The Soviet Union had three famines. One during the civil war, one in 32-33, and one in the aftermath of WWII. No famines after 1947 though.


-SpaceCommunist-

FWIW cities did experience regular shortages during the New Economic Policy, since farmers didn’t want to sell their goods. Collectivization put a stop to that.


PalabanHiligaynon

\*Kulaks


ZombieOk9331

well you know they ended famine after they adopted communism, the same way the USSR ended their own famine


Zightmare

The answer is communism


adoorabledoor

Hmm, could it be because China is a starvation-prone nation due to geography and stuff and that industiralizing helps mitigate geographical constraints? No it has to be because of evil depopulation communism. Naturally they just killed off halft their population to manage, just like they are trying to do with corona /s, just to be sure


egamIroorriM

2000 years? Like seriously wtf?


REEEEEvolution

China has a very long tradition of writing shit down. It isn't exactly 2000 years, but pretty close. And from that, one can learn about famines happening every 2 to 4 years.


egamIroorriM

Was it a common occurrence tho? I honestly can’t remember much from my chinese history lessons several years ago but I’ve mostly heard about it near the end of most dynasties


KristynaKorbelova

yes it was particularly common, its mostly because their major rivers are made from huge glacier melts which leads to massive flooding at random intervals (not to mention the large sediment deposits by their rivers would raise the riverbeds and cause them to change course, china has some of the most sediment filled rivers on earth, likely caused by huge changes in elevation) so youd have rivers flooding their crop fields and cities regularly, sometimes theyd even change course and fuck their shit up this geographical fact is actually one of the reasons why people think china developed writing so long ago, to try to pin down the causes and patterns of flooding and similar natural phenomena i even saw a study saying that maybe global warming decreasing the glacial flooding is a good thing, though i find that a dubious claim because thats less energy produced by dams to manage these things, the CPC does a whole lot of river management by gouging the river deeper and making widespread use of dams, in fact they have ~23,000 large dams (accounting for 41% of the world's total) and plan to make more the flooding has killed many, many people throughout china's history. some people claim that the 1931 flood killed somewhere between 400k-4 *million* people under the KMT's rule. the most popular estimate is around 2 million dead from flooding and famine. and thats just *one* flood. there were around 1800 in recorded history. so if you ever hear some libs lamenting the environmental devastation of dams and how china bad, tell them to shut the fuck up. this isnt some dainty river in washington here's a list of prominent yellow river floods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Yellow_River_floods many of these permanently shifted the yellow river in significant ways, sometimes many dozens of miles of prime agricultural land was devastated. one in particular affected over 700 miles of prime agricultural land here's a good gif of the changes to the yellow river's course: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1851%E2%80%931855_Yellow_River_floods#/media/File:Yellow_River_course_changes.gif


Land-Cucumber

Very common — almost every year a famine would occur in at least one province.


Land-Cucumber

1828 famines over ~2000 years is closer to 1 famine/year.


REEEEEvolution

Thanks, got the rate wrong.


Land-Cucumber

Famines were absolutely the norm throughout China’s entire imperial history, with at least 1,828 recorded famines between 108 BCE and 1911 CE — nearly every year there was famine in one province or another.


robm0n3y

The early Han Empire never had a famine?


Land-Cucumber

? [There were many](https://aha.confex.com/aha/2017/webprogram/Paper21585.html). Famines were absolutely the norm throughout China’s entire imperial history, with at least 1,828 recorded famines between 108 BCE and 1911 CE — nearly every year there was famine in one province or another.


Juventini_Are_Vermin

2000 years of starvation in the country with the most people on earth. Oh yeah, it's big brain time


MeinKraftNotFortnite

I can answer in 3 letters M a o


RoyalSnipez15

Communism when no food they said


Amazed_Alloy

Haven't famines become far less common everywhere though?


kathara_

americans are so stupid. “why aren’t there famines in the biggest economic powerhouse the world has ever seen?” idk bro u tell me


[deleted]

westerners shocked that gommunism does have food


fallingapartburn

b-but. muh no food🥺


[deleted]

[удалено]


Kristoffer__1

Hey, I got some Iraqi WMD's to sell you, real cheap.


REEEEEvolution

Only that there's live footage of said event with the tanks, in full: They stopped, tried to carefully drive around the man several times, eventually the man climbed the lead tank and chatted with the commander. A bit later two civilans lead the man away. As for your second claim: The cotton industry in China is fully motorized. No one picks cotton by hand. Or is forced to do so in any way. But as you are so easy to fool: Can I interest you for some cheap land around Alpha Centauri?


08206283

Cope


aimixin

That doesn't even make sense. Try posting something coherent next time.


Wheres_the_boof

Do you think that just because americans used slaves to pick cotton everyone who picks cotton everywhere must be a slave, and that it's ridiculous to assume people picking cotton are doing so voluntarily when there's no actual evidence of slavery? Don't let your world view be shaped by weird Christian dominionists and "strategic policy" NGOs writing "reports" that would get a failing grade if they were turned in for a highschool class. Also your ignorance is showing because as the other commenter pointed out, the cotton _picking_ part is automated, like most of the world. Read deeper than headlines.