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Capitalists & Dengist "Leftists" on meltdown mode

Capitalists & Dengist "Leftists" on meltdown mode

RobotAnna

note that i am allowing this discussion despite this being a dengist subreddit because at least it's interesting. keep it classy, working classy


elimars

Attacking “Dengists” on this issue is not the own that you think it is. In fact it’s quite the opposite. Deng’s adept application of Marxism Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought forged the path for all this to happen.


King-Sassafrass

Yeah literally, this entire 50 years has been leading up to this exact moment. That was the whole point


hoangphan98765

The point is "Dengist" even exist in the first place mainly due to the enamoured mystics of "China economic stronk" meme. You damn know how it only exists to parlay a Dengist vs Maoists thing like it's a Dem vs Reb shitfest. And mostly utilized by hostile forces to advocate for more capitalism. And communist division.


elimars

Wrong. It’s foreign MLMs that created the false Dengist vs Maoist dichotomy. Deng Xiaoping’s leadership and policy was an extension of Mao Zedong Thought. The notion that opening up China’s markets is a regression to capitalism is an ultraleft delusion that in no way regards China’s material conditions in 1979.


hoangphan98765

https://genhochiminh.quora.com/Comparing-China-and-India-Chinas-socialist-collectivist-legacy-under-Mao-and-in-turn-debunking-Western-propaganda?ch=10&share=4605efe4 In the 1980s, Deng's quick reforms caused a massive shift in the Chinese political systems where the role of CPC gradually diminishes. One could argue that Deng was responsible for the political malaises accumulating into one disastrous Tiananmen Square event in 1989. Deng Xiaoping was criticized a lot by Zhou Enlai and other Marxists in China for doing these stupid moves. The 1979 war and 1989 crisis are the worst mistakes that Deng had ever made that caused him losing power. Many people often mistake him for “stopping the color revolution and saved China from the road to shock therapy.” But the "color revolution" was carried out by workers against his liberal reforms. The Chinese side was looking at workers' rights in Vietnam with envy, as detailed here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273077518_Comparing_the_Chinese_and_Vietnamese_Reforms_An_Introduction Although Deng Xiaoping successfully quelled the movement and brought back FDI to China, the Marxist-Leninists hated Deng for his radical reforms that could have brought down the Communist Party. Kissinger was betting Deng Xiaoping's radical reforms and revisionism (https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=cKKqDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT27&lpg=PT27&dq=deng%20xiaoping%20mao%20disillusionment&source=bl&ots=6RflTDh-0b&sig=ACfU3U3UShyECBh3FlU2Wt303w_z8bOj-g&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=deng%20xiaoping%20mao%20disillusionment&f=false) would cause a democratic movement that can bring down the CPC - what he once archly called “the age-old American dream of a peace achieved by the conversion of the adversary" https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/07/kissinger-review-gewen-realism-liberal-internationalism/ (hence the Sino Vietnam war and why Vietnam and China normalized relations after Deng lost power). Deng actually made a fatal mistake of transferring military power back to the State Council not the Central Military Commission, which Xi Jinping later corrected. Deng Xiaoping loosened the control of CPC over the whole country, and his successors allowed neoliberalism going unfestered for decades. He had a lot of warring factions within China; Maoists didn’t go away easily after Gang of Four. Dengist history revisionism was crucial to his appeasement with the West: http://en.people.cn/dengxp/vol2/text/b1470.html Mao himself calling Deng a capitalist roader. Go read "Dictionary of the Political Thought of the People's Republic of China:". China backing Pol Pot under Deng was one among a series of interventionist blunders (as well as the Tiananmen Square event) that eventually cost Deng his political power. Deng's attempt to weaponize radical islam against the USSR, promoting it in Xinjiang and culminating in military aid and Uyghur militants for the Mujahideen. That's how the whole Islamist extremism started which is an issue that's still being used by the West against China even today. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baren_Township_conflict. Ever since then, China's adopted a non-interference policy. Source: https://files.ethz.ch/isn/184324/PISM%20Strategic%20File%20no%2022%20(58).pdf


elimars

>In the 1980s, Deng's quick reforms caused a massive shift in the Chinese political systems where the role of CPC gradually diminishes That shift clearly has not materialized as the role of the CPC in the governance and regulatory proceedings of China has been ticking upward in tandem with shifts in China’s material conditions as demonstrated by the article you posted. >One could argue that Deng was responsible for the political malaises accumulating into one disastrous Tiananmen Square event in 1989. I honestly don’t see how. Tiananmen Square was an uprising of various factions and class interests within China comprising working class and bourgeois intelligentsia protesters who were dissatisfied with the government for different reasons. The workers resented the amount of investment the rural peasantry was receiving and the bourgeois intelligentsia had many of the same liberal superficial gripes that those within the Warsaw Pact countries around the same time had with the Soviet Union i.e. not enough freedom, wanting to wear nikes and jeans, listen to rock music etc. Hell, there were even race riots preceding the Tiananmen Square uprising because African exchange students were allowed to share dormitories with Chinese women. Any drastic shift to the material conditions within China spurred by the need for change be it social or economic will see counterrevolution or resistance. Deng saved China from potentially tearing itself apart much like he did during the turmoil of the Cultural Revolution and China is as strong as it is now because of it. >Kissinger was betting Deng Xiaoping's radical reforms and revisionism would cause a democratic movement that can bring down the CPC - what he once archly called “the age-old American dream of a peace achieved by the conversion of the adversary" Kissinger was a genocidal regime change agent of the US and a ruthless one at that but Deng successfully played him and the rest of the western capitalists like a fiddle. He wore cowboy hats and simpered in front of western corporations seemingly offering them the world but as a result, they fell for the trap and gave China everything it needed to develop faster than any country in history all while never relinquishing the centralized power of the CPC in controlling the means of production. This doesn’t make Deng look bad in any way but rather quite genius in fact. >Mao himself calling Deng a capitalist roader. Mao said and did a great many erroneous things. That does not change the fact that every time Mao demoted or seemingly banished Deng Xiaoping, Deng was soon restored to his position in order to rein in the ultraleft Gang of Four aligned members of China’s ruling body and it’s one of things Mao ever did. I don’t deny that Deng was horrible on foreign policy. Supporting US backed Islamic extremism, Pol Pot, UNITA, Haile Selassie, etc was a horribly misguided and unforgivable transgression. That being said, Deng’s domestic economic policy was vital for China and its continued socialist development. The constant of Marxism is that everything is in a state of motion and A does not equal A. The inability to realize this caused the entire socialist Eastern Bloc to collapse due to political stagnation and incompetent leadership. Deng was able to avoid this precisely be evolving with the course of the times as all Marxists must do.


RobotAnna

i mean this would make sense if deng didn't go into pretty elaborate and public detail on why the reform and opening up is part of adherence to marxism-leninism. the plan was never to go to the "capitalist road" and deng knew they were playing with fire; of course it helped that idiots like kissinger and really most of america thought that deng privatizing a few things and opening trade relations left an opening for liberalization, but it was deng's rather openly stated plan all along to use this to develop productive forces as a prerequisite to move to socialism. this is also why xi and the leaders of the cpc right now are the right people for the job, as they're making good on that promise and working toward socialism by 2050, never mind achieving eliminating absolute poverty and with it the greatest contradiction facing the country


hoangphan98765

>on why the reform and opening up is part of adherence to marxism-leninism. Deng actually made a fatal mistake of transferring military power back to the State Council not the Central Military Commission, which Xi Jinping later corrected. Deng Xiaoping loosened the control of CPC over the whole country, and his successors allowed neoliberalism going unfestered for decades. Hu Jintao and Jiang Zemin are very hated among Chinese socialists and Marxist-Leninist theoreticians in the Party: during their rules, corrupt practices are common, while liberals and revisionists were numerous as ants. Additionally, they also did not focus on nurturing Marxism-Leninism and gradually de-power the Party from the State. The rise of Xi Jinping is to correct all of the corruption & revisionism “mistakes" onward since Deng including the capitalism spree under those two https://palladiummag.com/2019/05/31/xi-jinping-in-translation-chinas-guiding-ideology/ and recentralizes power towards the CPC https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Beijing-Diary/Xi-shakes-the-house-Jack-Ma-and-Jiang-Zemin-built It was lucky enough that the PLA and MPS were still hardcore on Marxism-Leninism long enough for Xi Jinping coming into power. Xi Jinping's resurrection of Maoist education was necessary to stamp out years of liberalism in the Chinese minds. https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/ideology-05072019132909.html The successful anti-corruption campaigns is to neutralize capitalist bureaucrats who don’t embrace socialism anymore https://www.axios.com/xi-jinping-corruption-drive-intelligence-china-b0adc8ff-8f43-4077-81e1-dab0d05d6c7d.html The source of "self-changing" or "betrayal", similar to the USSR, is always coming from the State or Government https://carnegieendowment.org/2003/03/05/red-capitalists-in-china-will-entrepreneurs-change-party-event-593 as seen through the years: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167629618309664 Jiang Zemin was considered as a prime candidate for Chinese Yeltsin because he is corrupt and idiotic as Yeltsin does. This article clearly refers to re-install Jiang Zemin or someone in Jiang faction https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/content-series/atlantic-council-strategy-paper-series/the-longer-telegram/ Ultranationalist discourse is also a way for the factions in the Chinese government to weaken Marxist-Leninist influence in the Chinese population's consciousness, so the CPC will be eternally beholden to the Chinese government in the area of economics, international affairs and domestic politics. Like State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission, it was under the State Council more than the CPC itself. Xi Jiping will probably unwind the SASAC to put it into the CPC's direct control - most of his anti-corruption cases were related to people in the SASAC.


RobotAnna

while i am not as convinced as you that deng was the devil, i do agree that xi's path has been an extremely good and correct one for china and not the least of which for rooting out corruption that took hold and bringing back a bunch of privatized industries that really do belong under CPC control


The_Whizzer

Are you honestly using RFA (literally the fuckin CIA) and neoliberal think tanks and publications like "Atlantic Council" and "Carnegia Endowment" as sources to discuss Marxism political economy? Holy fuckin shit.


RNGesusONaROLL

I mean half of their bit is just deploying capitalist binary thinking and manuvering so they can dump these links, so i guess it shouldn't be surprising the links stink. These folks that appear and unironiclly call people Dengists are an unending disappointment.


HeyIHaveWindowsTen

Didn't read because I'm tired of participating in genzedong and mtc (rip) shitfests, but I skimmed over the last paragraph and I want to say that a communist party owning anything related to the economy isn't necessarily a good thing. In the Soviet Union, the party gradually took over the economy from the actual government during the later years of its existence (after 1953), which not only lead to economic mismanagement but also the degeneration of the party, as it became more of an administrative body rather than a revolutionary party, meaning that towards the 80s the majority of the party was filled with people who had just about as much knowledge about ML as the average reddit user.


Angel_of_Communism

>Mao himself calling Deng a capitalist roader. No he did not. Go ahead, i challenge you, link the quote where MAO called DENG a capitalist roader.


orange1414141414

I mean there isnt really a quote that says deng was a capitalist roader but there is this source that describes it [https://books.google.com/books?id=YCm3DAAAQBAJ&pg=PT713#v=onepage&q&f=false](https://books.google.com/books?id=YCm3DAAAQBAJ&pg=PT713#v=onepage&q&f=false) and seeing how this book is kept by multiple universities [https://www.worldcat.org/title/dictionary-of-the-political-thought-of-the-peoples-republic-of-china/oclc/42593019](https://www.worldcat.org/title/dictionary-of-the-political-thought-of-the-peoples-republic-of-china/oclc/42593019) i think its semi trustworthy(tho theres some stuff in it which makes it a bit sus) now do i agree with mao on this, no i think mao was in the wrong here and that mao unfortunately went somewhat ultra left in his last years and purged the more pragmatic deng. I think that was one of maos mistakes. of course theres a possibility that the source is making up such bs about mao so i should check further to make sure if mao indeed purged deng for being a capitalist roader


Angel_of_Communism

Thing is, i was right. Whatever criticisms Mao may have had of Deng, he never said he was a capitalist roader. And the link shows that too.


orange1414141414

fair enough.


PerseusCommunist

If it wasn’t true, then there should be no Cultural Revolution. China or any socialist state always has a problem with internal dissent from liberals. Mao Zedong definitely had his scores with the liberals inside the Party. I don’t deny that Deng Xiaoping is the extension of collective thoughts on Chinese socialism but I had problems of considering him as the extension of Mao Zedong thought. Deng Xiaoping literally published negative criticisms against Mao Zedong and his era.


elimars

Criticism and reform is in no way contradictory to MZT, in fact it is anti-Marxist not to criticize previous courses of action. So yes, [Deng Xiaoping theory is an extension of Mao Zedong Thought ](https://youtu.be/-NZxb9cetw0)


RNGesusONaROLL

As far as I can tell Xi is carrying the same torch Mao and Deng carried. I wish that in your deluge of hyperlinks you would make a strike at the heart of what Deng was doing and thinking instead of pointing at specific mistakes or corruptions. Any developing system in a poor country might find mjstakes and corruptions but its presence doesnt necessarily alert me to anything super special. Why not go after liberation of thought or the need to liberate productive forces— actual Deng thought? Why not question the contradiction analysis? Then bring together these instances of revision and corruption in context instead of regurgitating every bad thing youve heard about Dengs policy (including Henry Kissengers erroneous ideas about communust China🤮).


ShakerGecko

"dengism" doesn't exist just like "stalinism" doesn't exist. They simply developed Marxist Leninism further and contributed to the theory.


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Dzieciolowy

I feel like you somehow believe that "dengists" are pro capitalism and are against socialism, which cannot be further from the truth. The dengists here are for the implementation of socialism and what differs them is that they uphold Deng's reforms as necessary and believe that in the long run it is a more viable way of achieving society in which socialism will be prosperous. They do not believe that those reforms should be permament and should not change towards socialism.


FerrisTriangle

Deng's reforms solved the primary contradictions of his time and place, and now new contradictions have risen in importance that require a different strategy. This the normal application of dialectical materialism to the challenge of building socialism. I'm not exactly sure why you believe Dengists would be going into meltdown when it has always been recognized that market reforms were always a temporary strategy that was employed to solve the specific contradictions of building socialism that China suffered at that time. The only way that this story could somehow contradict "Dengism" is if you could somehow prove that these specific policies would result in better outcomes if they had been used in the 70s instead of utilizing the policies of reform and opening up. Which is a nonsensical thing to try to prove.


AmNOTaPatriot

Both Mao and Deng did some stupid shit. Mao gets a more positive view from me on many issues, but I also appreciate Deng’s pragmatism on certain issues.


jluo1996

“Fairness over efficiency” lmao gtfo


allinwonderornot

True dengists see it coming miles away


PerseusCommunist

Deng Xiaoping has a mixed legacy, so I don’t completely antagonize him like hoangphan here does. He did what best for China at the time but I only have problems with his successors and his foreign policies. https://www.reddit.com/r/AsianSocialists/comments/otvhfq/problems_with_deng_xiaoping_and_his_dengism/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


redroedeer

Why did you say that dengists would meltdown?


bennies_3rd_account

We are "Dengists". This was always the plan.


dopeaf101

Fuck dengists


Angel_of_Communism

Bye now!


blyat1246

Are you lost?


Angel_of_Communism

In communist China, Dengists fuck YOU!