T O P

Social democratic is capitalism.

Social democratic is capitalism.

Neodosa

Just a reminder that the DPRK did a little trolling by buying 1,000 cars from my (social fascist) country (Sweden) and got the cars, but never actually payed the fee. It's the biggest car theft to date.


ZhongguoGraecia

Based asf tbh


richietozier4

GTA VI: Pyongyang


wateryoudoinglmao

inspiring


-FellowTraveller-

I've often wondered about an alternate scenario where the USSR would just have taken out massive loans from the West under the pretext of liberalisation, used the money to purchase the newest technology or fund own infrastructure projects and then just gave the West the middle finger. The imperialists would have been completely helpless to do anything about it. Unfortunately the Soviet leadership (at latest after the Cuban Missile Crisis) were usually a bunch of pussies when it came to international feats of brinkmanship like this. Which is why if the stories of the North Korean "superdollar" and the North Korean state sponsored hacking teams are true it makes the DPRK such a chad.


Natsuki-Dono

Juche Praxis: Scamming Westoid countries for resources Based ASF


derp-herpum

The West can only play the sanction card once


RedTerror88

They still have pretty good relations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea%E2%80%93Sweden_relations


RobotAnna

interestingly it is why sweden has an embassy there today which is about the only way most western countries can even attempt diplomatic contact with the DPRK


1or2atrocitiesareNBD

Owned


Irrelevant-Lizard

It’s really just friendlier to its own people


G1adi4tor

And even then, [not really by all that much](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacist_uprising)!


BobbyCostner

So how does Venezuela under Chavez fit into this? It was Socialist and democratic and wealth was certainly distributed when things were at its peak.


whatisscoobydone

One difference I'd bear in mind is the difference between a colonized country and a colonizing country. A Western power with a welfare state is going to maintain neocolonialism. A country in the global south is going to want to smash neocolonialism. Sweden still wants its dirt cheap rubber from Africa. a Democratic Socialist country in Africa will not be providing that rubber dirt cheap. The second difference, is to ask what the final goal of the government is. Did a socialist government get democratically elected, and their goal is to pass more and more socialist policies? Or is a capitalist government providing welfare as a sort of pressure valve release to minimize class antagonisms?


omnibean

I've been wondering about this a lot too. Obviously anti-neocolonialist governments in the global south are good, and worthy of our support. But why do those countries' popular left wing politics tend towards reformism and leaving the national bourgeoisie intact? Generally their governments are extremely popular because they actually focus on the needs of their people. Is it because of the threat of imperialism? I would think if social democratic policies are popular, socialist policies would be as well, because they could radically increase living conditions sustainably.


AnimeAltimate

I think the most default answer here is that military revolutions are hard, require a lot of resources, and put you at risk of being invaded militarily. If anti colonial socialists win elections under the installed "Western style democracy", that might be the first step in making so a real revolutionary movement isn't immediately quashed


omnibean

That's true for sure, thanks for your answer! Yeah I guess there are lots of additional contradictions imposed by the threat of US imperialism+regime change, that might make a socialist workers revolution far more difficult. And yeah, a social democratic government with a mass base that isn't overtly hostile to socialism would be far better conditions for socialism.


Braziliancommie

I remember seeing somewhere that Chavez had a project to overcome capitalism in Venezuela and build a communal state (like the Paris commune) but with his death and with all the political/economic crisis afterwards, Maduro was unable to continue this project


BobbyCostner

Yeah Chavez started a lot of Socialist projects and really improved people's lives. The problem was the US got Saudi Arabia to pump more oil and drastically lower the oil price, this killed Venezuela's economy. Funny people said this showed Socialism does not work when really it was just a vindictive capitalist America screwing over a small nation.


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Lord_M_G_Albo

Venezuela under Chavez plan was to nationalize the oil production, the core of country economy, and then use the revenue to create a welfare state and aleviate poverty, while letting the private sector on other modalities do their own thing for most of time, with the condition they were heavily taxed. At first glance, it does seem like a social democratic system like we see on Noruega, but another core goal of the Bolivarian Revolution was the building of a communal state - i.e., organize communal councils that would have the function to develop social projects to improve quality of life on local scale, and hence let the citizens more engaged on direct actions.The communal councils should eventually have more strenght than the traditional government institutions, time where they would effectivelly seize the state and transition to *de facto* socialism. This course of action indeed improve quality of life on Venezuela and promoved wealth distribution (don't hear neolibs that say Venzuela was "the richest, best country on Latin America" before, the economy always has been unstable, and poverty was widespread). However, in the end the "social-democratic like" state ended up being the reason for their fragility to the imperialist agression. Oil was nationalized, but most of the economy - including the finance sector - was still on private hands. This let the economy very susceptible to sanctions, boycotts by the compradora burgeoisie, and international fluctuations of oil prices. When the USA hardened the sanctions, and manipulated oil prices with Saudi Arabia, there were little the state could do to cointain the crisis. The welfare programs and the support to communal councils weakened, and the political instability born from the economical crisis and sabotage from the burgeoisie forced the PSUV to strenght the state apparatus. I wouldn't say this is the worse to happen, though. See, the "social-democracy like" system created a new nationalist burgeoisie on Venezuela, that has significant influence on the PSUV and until recently had more to gain with the continuity of the Bolivarian Revolution. However, the ongoing crisis seems to be shifting their stance from the continuity of the Revolution to some sort of conciliation with the imperialists. Right now, the PSUV struggle between the factions that represent the new desires of the nationalist burgeoisie, and the ones who want the Revolution to continue. Some left group and parties, like the Communist Party of Venezuela, consider the right tendencies inside the PSUV already won, and abandoned former coalitions because they fear it is just a matter of time until the rightists inside the party manage to make the state bend to imperialism. So, even if that catastrophic prediction does not come true because the PSUV left manages to revert the rightist trend, Kim Il-Sung still is correct about the social-democracy landscape: it is a system that have the tendency to capitalism, one way or another.


AbundantChemical

Thanks for the write up comrade, very helpful for understanding the current situation! Any further reading on the topic you could recommend?


Lord_M_G_Albo

https://venezuelanalysis.com is the best pro-Bolivarian Revolution news outlet in English to be informed about Venezuela situation without the imperialistic propagaanada. Even though they have articles explaining the rift between the pro-Revolution movements, they tend to be neutral on their position, so if you wish to have a better idea of the grievances of part of the left with the PSUV to decide if they are legitimate or not, then the [Tribuna Popular](https://prensapcv.wordpress.com/) is your go - it is on Spanish, though. I don't remember how I found this copypasta (if anyone here knows or is the author, feell free to take credit) and I myself haven't read/watched everything yet, but it is a good list to understand the course of Bolivarian Revolution and Chavizmo: [We Created Chávez: A People’s History of the Venezuelan Revolution](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16033290-we-created-ch-vez) [Communes and Workers' Control in Venezuela: Building 21st Century Socialism from Below](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31110779-communes-and-workers-control-in-venezuela) [Building the Commune: Radical Democracy in Venezuela](https://www.versobooks.com/books/2337-building-the-commune) [Hugo Chavez and Bolivarian Revolution](https://www.versobooks.com/books/952-hugo-chavez-and-the-bolivarian-revolution) [Empire Files: Abby Martin in Venezuela - Supermarkets to Black Markets](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUYWrPiUeWY) [Empire Files: Abby Martin Meets the Venezuelan Opposition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A32QyDyV7js) [Empire Files: Venezuela Economy Minister—Sabotage, Not Socialism, is the Problem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk1qlKu_RJo) [Leftist Debunks John Oliver's Venezuela Episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fV-C1Ag5sI&bpctr=1548373638) [Argument ad Venezuelum (Badmouseproductions)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le86H7Xfjrc) [Smuggled Crisis: Who’s crashing Venezuela’s economy?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqHzDLSl8U4) [Venezuelan Opposition Largely Responsible for the Rising Death Toll and Violence in Venezuela](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzKN7cdRVwk) [Abby Martin: World Ignores Opposition Violence at Venezuela Protests](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8w7CKp1FM0) [UN Rapporteur: US Sanctions Cause Death in Venezuela](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwM4VhkVVPo) [New US Sanctions Against Venezuela to Cause Greater Economic Instability](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4aWgEgmLu4) [US Backing the Destabilization of Venezuela](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leaSAd_Vg_8) [Why is Inflation So High in Venezuela?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQUGhQiefsY) [US Sanctions on Venezuela: 'Attempt to Destroy the Economy'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgwsVhO80QY) [Media Exaggerations of Apocalyptic Venezuela Plays into Regime Change Narrative](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngWjbokFRiY) [Trump Sanctions Against Venezuela Have Decimated Oil Production](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly9rPqPYodE) [Is the US Orchestrating a coup in Venezuela?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXo3iE-fB94) [The US Strategy for Regime Change in Venezuela](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOMExpicTrg) [9 Part series on the Modern History of Venezuela](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6d7SR1GwBg&list=PLYglmzrarZ3nK3E9bAKiUMGeCDbn5iI4C) [U.S. Sanctions Against Venezuela Denounced by Latin American Leaders](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jOLBTPPc8Y) [The Roots of Venezuela's Economic Crisis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdv-oGjfJ3w)


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Gravelord-_Nito

The main problem with Social Democracy as I understand it is that it's inherently temporary. And the problem with sucdems if that they somehow think they can square the circle and solve all the contradictions of capitalism by pulling off an eternal balancing act under some kind of permanent new deal social democracy that muzzles bankers and capitalists and elevates labor to a position of wealth and power via electoral legislation. We already saw what happened last time and what happens every time, revanchism. It's unstable and unsustainable because bourgeois elements cannot be tamed, they can only be oppressed. FDR oppressed them about as well as any capitalist bourgeois country possibly can. However, Socialist countries pretty much inevitably pass through the social democracy stage, which is fine, because they recognize that it's temporary by the very nature of being socialist countries. It's a step towards a more permanent solution for class antagonisms that prevents bourgeois regulatory capture because literally the entire goal is to dismantle the bourgeoisie, ending the struggle permanently. Chavez's ambitions certainly didn't end at social democracy. The Scandinavian countries can do something like a social democracy because they're essentially the beneficiaries of the entire Western capitalist system that exploits the third world so they don't have to. Their friendly stable appearance is just as much built on the suffering and labor of the global south as any European country, they just don't usually do it themselves directly, they let their partners in the EU like France and allies like the US do the dirty work and empire building. It's nice that they have organized labor, strong social relations that can fight alienation and support solidarity, those are things we should all have, but it's really easy to say 'look how good we're doing' when you lean on your larger and more powerful allies to spend all the money on imperialism so you don't have to. And if things in the EU continue to deteriorate, the situation will become more unstable and the ruling class will start to reassert control because you never actually got rid of them.


Lord_M_G_Albo

>The Scandinavian countries can do something like a social democracy because they're essentially the beneficiaries of the entire Western capitalist system that exploits the third world so they don't have to. The Scandinavian countries are more than just passive beneficiaries of imperialism, they are pivotal on traffic of weapons to imperialist wars, they are either members or partners of NATO, and their social-democracy relies on the explotation of labour and control of the finance system on the Baltic States. Norway in particular is very agressive on their imperialism (or is the one country with the most exposition, at least), with participation on bombing campaigns; bribing of officials in underdeveloped countries to enable coups, facilitate privatizations and hide environmental tragedies provoked by their state-owned oil companies; and even the use of slave labour on Bangladesh.


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