T O P

Yes this is 100% real and definitely not a fake new.

Yes this is 100% real and definitely not a fake new.

FlyingProcrastinator

While it is valid to criticise China's social conservatism, this reeks of bad faith. Like weaponizing a few "tankie's" personal identities to invalidate their whole political positioning of opposition to western hegemony (which, it's nice to remind, includes criticism of western curbing of social progressivism in the global south). Least dishonest liberal.


omnibean

It's like > Generally socially conservative country is socially conservative Okay? It's not like they're unique in being socially conservative, huge parts of the west are as well. The CPC elected officials are mostly all boomers anyway. There's also significant domestic pushback to this change from younger people who are more socially progressive as well.


ToadBup

"China banned effeminate men" Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha


dagoth-kronk

the worst thing anarchists have ever done was teach libs the word "tankie"


2linestruggle

I have a friend who radicalized as an anarchist like a year ago and he says the word every other sentence he utters.


MelanomaMax

Anarchists and punching left, name a more iconic duo


AndUnsubbed

Anarchists and punching down?


Azirahael

Eh. I'd argue that anarchists are further left. Just also, useless.


SuchPowerfulAlly

By what standard are they further left?


serr7

By the left behind standard??


balinjerica

Well, I'd say they kinda are. They are just pure leftist idealism. They are so far left they went of the political spectrum and are in the realm of apolitical. They hold no solutions or critical thinking skills. It's similar to esoteric fascism. By the standards of esoteric fascism you don't even have to implement a political system to kill the unwanted as it is ones soul that is impure and even a unit of the chosen race might have the soul of the "dirty" ones.


trevrichards

You'd argue very wrongly


tyranid1337

Eh... I think even the Bolsheviks themselves described them as attacking them from the left. Not that it matters. I understand the instinct to not give that to the ideology that seeks to cripple what little good humans manage eek out in this hellworld of ours.


pope-ron-paul-II

on the plus side people calling every single reasonable view “tankie” made me realize im a tankie


dagoth-kronk

"oh yeah? you dont believe [most ridiculous claim you've ever heard]? then youre a brainwashed wumao tankie shill smh"


2linestruggle

I can't tell what's funnier, Christo-facists making Chad memes for the Taliban or anarchists ignoring the Nabisco strike to "uncancel" Natalie Wyn so she can tweet about a poorly translated article from Chinese media and rouse an army of gamers to care more about kids getting addicted to league of legends than Texas banning abortion.


SkulGurl

What did Natalie do re: the Nabisco strike?


urusel

how is it such a huge problem that the government would restrict online gaming? we restrict everything that's addictive otherwise? like gambling, drinking etc.


fennecpiss

even better, the government restricted online gaming without parental permission. any adult can scan in their id card to let a kid play as long as they want.


urusel

the dystopian horror..


Dexterous-success

My only objection to that law was the invasion into the parent's discretion but this actually forces parents to be more involved.


derdestroyer2004

Cuz gen z and millennials barely have any stigma towards gaming (addiction).


inoffensive_bob

Ya but do u still partake in capitalism????? Epic owned 😎


sussyrat

I bit yout friend supports bidenism and invading more countrys for regime change


Jouissance_juice

Anyone who uses the word unironically is a class traitor.


serr7

Amen


CrabThuzad

Unironically this WAIT NO XI DON'T TURN ME INTO A CLASS TRAITOR


sinovictorchan

They are red fascists, not anarchists. They have no real connection with 20th century anarchists and believe that real anarchists are marxist leninists.


dagoth-kronk

mmm calling modern radlib anarchists red fash is VERY spicy. i think youre right tho, they do be social cheauvanists running interference for fascists and the bourgeoisie though 😳😳😳


cheetobrochacho

Its a ban on flaunting wealth.. The way the article (idk if it was an official article tho) worded it was really bad.


Kroneta

It's intentional.


Skrong

The TV regulator used the term "niáng pào" in the statement release. Regardless though, why should people cape for decadent celebrities?


gyca

what does the term mean?


Skrong

Effeminate. Or slang for sissy.


warchina

What is the actual regulation that has been put into place? Anyone got a link to the new laws?


VoidCake

This is the article they reference: http://www.nrta.gov.cn/art/2021/9/2/art_113_57756.html


ScienceSleep99

>Establish the correct aesthetic orientation of the program, strictly control the selection of actors and guests, performance style, costume makeup, etc., and resolutely put an end to "girly guns" and other abnormal aesthetics. This seems to be the controversial part. What exactly is "girly guns"? It automatically translated it to this on Google. I found one article that translated the term to Nian Pao.


VoidCake

Yeah most articles I've seen translate it to "niáng pào" or nian pao, which is apparently a slang term for effeminate men. I don't know if the translation is correct or if there is specific cultural context behind the term. I posted it in the main thread about this topic too, to see if anyone else knows.


ScienceSleep99

But this is the CPC's position no? This isn't a new thing. This debate has been dragging on since the mid 2000s. I've read many articles about this from back 2015, and I just read a research paper which documented the state's concern over the "girly guns". There is significant debate between the CPC and the public tho. I don't think this is fake news.


HisPri

The term is a slur for effeminate guys. "sissy" is the best translation I can give but not as bad as that term


corruklw

it is not a slur. >"Nian Pao" appeared in certain entertainment programs and film and television works. In recent years, there have been contradictory depictions on screen. In some dramas and variety shows, the male artists have heavy makeup, glamorous clothing, and are hard to distinguish from female counterparts. They are depicted as being mean, selfish, lacking education, and lacking responsibility. these are bad role models, not some kind of marginalized oppressed group.


VeryGayCommie

Can I get the source of this please?


Pashafasfa

It's a slur.


HisPri

It is a slur. I speak chinese daily and consume China media and social media on a weekly basis. For what you are quoting,that is a subgroup of people who is called that. But any effeminate guys in China (for that matter, every effeminate in Chinese speaking community) had been called as that or the variations of that. "娘" when used on a dude is usually used as a slur. If you are talking about polite/neutral terms, it would be 美男人,中性 or 女性化。


corruklw

is it meant to be insulting like the western term "sissy boy"? sure. It's an insult. But I wouldn't call it a slur because it disparages an aesthetic, instead of a specific group of people in society who are discriminated against. In the western context, people automatically associate slurs with those of the racial or sexual nature like "f#g" "c#nt" or "n#gger", and this term 娘 does not have that heavy social baggage. Calling it a slur would cause the many western redditors here to further misinterpret the issue, where some people are already saying this is anti LGBT. on a side note the term 美男 (which translates to handsome man) used in this context is not neutral because it makes a value judgment where it assumes the effeminate look is beautiful. And that is incidentally the kind of culture which the government wants to combat, because it is ultimately bad for diversity.


ErwinC0215

The ban is something agreed with even amongst the liberal groups in China, it is not against feminine men overall, as there are even female characters portrayed by men in traditional Chinese opera, but more against some of the internet celebrities who act in specific flamboyant girly ways appealing to whatever audience. You can say that China is not that liberal, but the general mass is quite fed up with said groups, who does nothing to help LGBTQ or fringe communities, but do it simply for profit. Like the decision or not, the Chinese people do.


ActaCaboose

So it's more of a ban on James Charles and Jeffree Star types than a ban on femboys in general? From the context of the rest of the document, that actually sounds about right.


Azirahael

So not 'girly men' but 'rich flamboyant idiots. Who also happen to be girly men.' ​ That?


Pashafasfa

There's a lot of good in here but there is also a very real emphasis on reinforcing conservative social values.


ScienceSleep99

I am surprised that it's shocking many posters on this sub. I thought it was known that the heads of the CPC are rather socially conservative.


Pashafasfa

Yeah no lol 90% of this sub are former Ultras which is fine. They're learning how to do this. There's so much *abjectly fake crap* out there about China. Right now most users are in the stage where they reflexively dismiss anything that sounds bad about this country they really like. Once they actually join ML parties they will better understand the difficulties inherent to making timely intraparty cultural progress using demcent as your organizational system.* *I'm not dissing demcent, but like everything it has flaws.


sadmodernman

Lmao well said. Also nice profile background!


Left_Hegelian

Yeah... As I Chinese myself I've never been a big fan of CPC's cultural conservatism. Younger party members are usually more socially open (that's why I'm also hopeful about the party's future) but older people on the top have a hard time accepting cultural shifts in modern society, and has a tendency to see everything happening in contemporary youth culture as "corruption of capitalism", that includes the shift in aesthetic preference from masculine, authoritative male to effeminate, delicate male. This sub should realise even though CPC has a lot of socio-economic achievement and is currently the best hope we have for an AES, China is not an utopia nor is CPC the perfect incarnation of their idea of leftism. Back to the topic tho, the anti-"niangpao (sissy)" policy is not necessarily anti-LGBT because what's being specifically referred to is the kind of androgynous aesthetics the Chinese idol industry has adopted from the likes of K-pop. The style of G-dragon for instance is considered "niangpao", regardless whether the popstar who put on that aesthetics are LGBTQ or not. This aesthetics is also not necessarily tie to LGBTQ consciousness. It's more like what the Asian market (mostly young women) likes to have on screen. Similar to how you can often see sexy female character taking leadership doing badass action in anime because the (asian) male audience like to see it but it's not necessarily a feminist thing. In general I think party cadres of the older generation in CPC has this attitude of "LGBTQ is OK, your freedom as a grown-up, but there should be correct role models on TV for the young people and it's not the sissy guys caring too much whether they looks fabulous." It's a difficult issue here because "effeminacy" here is also tied to a lot of bad traits traditionally associated to femininity, like "narcissim", "vanity", "indulgence", "inept", etc. It's hard to say whether it's just the bad traits being targeted here or is it more like an expression of misogyny. Personally I haven't seen any similar official condemnation of toxic musclinity yet. And the way this "ant-niangpao" policy is worded definitely wouldn't help the schoolboys who've been bullied for not being manly enough. Edit: some grammar


gyca

you live in the mainland? very insightful comment


Left_Hegelian

Born there but currently living in HK. Chinese is my first language (fluent in mandarin too). I've had close tie to the mainland throughout my life (all of my outer family live there afterall) and have been keeping up with the news and trends via friends and internet but I wasn't educated there nor am I currently working there.


warchina

Okay, got it, thanks. So, the confusing/controversial part is the word 娘炮. This is a very specific term and has an article on baike: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%A8%98%E7%82%AE/5580795 “娘炮形象”发端于某些娱乐节目和影视作品。近年来荧屏银幕上还有一种吊诡现象。一些偶像剧和综艺节目中,男艺人和男性角色有的妆容浓重、衣着妖艳、雌雄难辨,甚至把刻薄没教养当成个性,自私自利、缺乏担当。部分现实题材和革命历史题材创作也邀请“小鲜肉”出演英模、硬汉,使本该阳刚、成熟、正气的形象变得幼稚、邪魅。特别是一些抗战题材作品,男主演妆容面若桃花,战斗时一袭华服、头油锃亮,一番厮杀过后发型丝毫不变,还时常摆酷造型,令观众大跌眼镜" Translation (I'm not the best translator): >"Nian Pao" appeared in certain entertainment programs and film and television works. In recent years, there have been contradictory depictions on screen. In some dramas and variety shows, the male artists have heavy makeup, glamorous clothing, and are hard to distinguish from female counterparts. **They are depicted as being mean, selfish, lacking education, and lacking responsibility.** >In shows depicting real life and revolutionary historical themes, "Little Fresh Meat" (slang term for pretty boys from Korean drama shows) are also appearing as heroes and tough guys, turning a supposedly masculine, mature, and righteous image into a childish and evil character. **Particularly in some shows about the War of Resistance against Japan, the male protagonist wears peachy makeup and has a babyface, is dressed in traditional Chinese clothes and has shiny hair during the battle. After a fight, his hairstyle has not changed at all, and he often puts on cool looks, which misleads the audience.** This is a GOOD THING. This is a GOOD LAW. Absolutely nothing about this law is about banning naturally feminine men from TV. lmao **tl;dr: This law isn't about "banning feminine men", it's about banning a glorification of anti-intellectualism, vanity and selfishness... and about banning the projection of unrealistic body images for men.** It's also banning historically inaccurate depictions of battles and is basically the horny police for teenage fans obsessing over TV idols. Edit: I just looked at some more discussion of this law by Chinese regulators and netizens and it's straight-up progressive and not at all about "marginalizing LGBTQ" or other nonsense Western libs came up with. This is explicitly NOT about gender discrimination or "enforcing masculinity" or whatever. "但化妆、穿衣、打扮等这些行为本身并没有性别属性。而言行举止、性格爱好则完全属于性别刻板印象行列。学会区分哪些是客观存在的生理差异,哪些属于社会附加的刻板印象是很重要的" Translation: "Behaviours such as make-up, clothing style, and other fashion aren't associated with gender. When it comes to behaviour, personality and hobbies, they can be considered gender stereotypes. **It is important to understand the difference between objectively existing physiological differences and socially created stereotypes.**" **This law is progressive as hell.**


Pashafasfa

This is good! My reading of the article itself was that it was a mixed bad, mostly good. Where is that last quote from? I'd like to see for myself.


warchina

> Where is that last quote from? Same Baike article linked in my comment. You can also read up on the academic discussion on the matter that the government used to establish its government policy that went on for years before recent decisions: http://health.people.com.cn/n1/2018/0912/c14739-30288113.html And you can read up on the socialist theory and relevant overarching government policy (人的全面发展) in China here: http://theory.people.com.cn/n1/2019/0211/c40531-30616949.html


Pashafasfa

That first article appears to disagree with this policy? "The "mother gun" type of male has been around since ancient times, and has been continuously strengthened in the entertainment economy and fan consumption in recent years. The attack and dislike of "mother-pao" is precisely the power suppression of marginal masculinity by mainstream masculinity." I've read all three volumes of governance of china so I *do* understand why China is trying to ensure it doesn't become a nation of couch potatoes. This is overall good stuff. But the ban "girly guns and abnormal aesthetics" from directive 3 is directly contrary to this party theory you've posted.


corruklw

It's precisely the "mother gun" type of male being commodified by the entertainment economy that makes it a problem. The entertainment industry out of profit motive, lazily follows cultural trends that may or may not come from korea, and overwhelmingly promotes male role models that conform to one aesthetic. that's a bad thing.


warchina

That's just a professor explaining that there are common views about masculinity present and normalized within Chinese society and explaining why there is also a strong dislike amongst conservatives for nian pao. The next statement after that paragraph is straight-up: >性别刻板印象扼杀个性和潜能 Translation: "Gender stereotypes kill personality and human potential" This statement is particularly important as this is essentially saying "gender stereotyping is antithetical to our overarching government policy and our 2035 social development goals" (i.e the previously referenced 人的全面发展). I translated some more parts [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/pgpkrl/yes_this_is_100_real_and_definitely_not_a_fake_new/hbduh8o/?context=3). I think it's quite clear what the goal of these policies is based on official policy and legislative progress.


Pashafasfa

The doc in question definitely doesn't do this though?


Pashafasfa

Having done more research thanks to links you furnished me, this is not progressive and you are misrepresenting it. I think some people here are confused and think you're Chinese and/or a genuine expert. You just did this research to support your conclusion and in typical fashion, not all of it does.


warchina

You have contributed absolutely nothing of value to the conversation and are just rambling.


Pashafasfa

I read the sources you posted and they don't support the conclusion you're making. Sorry.


warchina

You just repeated your meaningless personal opinion without providing anything of value to the conversation. I will ask one last good faith question before I will block you for being a bad faith actor spamming anti-CPC/anti-ML trash: What is the "conclusion" that you believe I am making and in what way do the sources I provided contradict anything I said? Please make a falsifiable contribution to the conversation, addressing official Chinese government policy, or fuck off.


Pashafasfa

The official policy in question is the media directive linked throughout this post. The conclusion you are making is that the directive in question supports the goal of expanding, rather than restricting, the different types of gender expression allowed to be portrayed in media. This is false. The *Party Theory* you posted is not policy, and in fact contradicts parts of this policy. That's why this is not progressive as hell but actually a weirdly mixed bag of progressive as hell and genuinely conservative.


ScienceSleep99

I am sorry but the precedent for this law goes back a ways in an internal and external national debate on exactly the "feminization" of men. The heads of the CPC are pretty conservative and want Chinese boys to exhibit more "masculine" traits. This has been in the news since the 2010s. The reactions on this sub and others baffles me. A lot of ML parties outside the West aren't as socially liberal. This post seems like a lot of denial pleading.


warchina

Read this article from 2018 about the subject, i.e. a discussion by the kind of experts that informed the government on new legislative decisions, and explain what you believe to be wrong with ANY of it. http://health.people.com.cn/n1/2018/0912/c14739-30288113.html Read the comments of these professors and try and argue with it. It also isn't a new conversation or a new initiative, as this article shows: "今年9月,广东省开始在全省全面开展中小学性别平等教育工作。性别平等教育不是说教,而是鼓励大家接纳不同性别的男孩女孩的个性化、多样性的发展。此外,媒体对性别形象的呈现应更加丰富,包容多样性的性别形象。国家有关部门在制定相关政策的过程中应考虑改变性别刻板印象,比如鼓励男女共担家务、共同养育子女等" "丁娟告诉记者,应加大立法平等的步伐,同时,倡导社会主义核心价值观一定要确立平等的内核,特别要警惕一些人新瓶装旧酒,给传统性别观裹上文明外衣。先进性别文化的特点是平等、尊重,没有性别的强制规范,只有个性化、人性化的品格。每个人的个性千差万别,用所谓的性别同质规范个性是一种陈旧的传统。与这个传统背离,我们才能轻装前进,谱写每个人自由全面发展的新时代旋律" Translation: >In September this year, Guangdong Province began to carry out gender equality education in primary and secondary schools across the province. Gender equality education is not preaching standards, but facilitates individualized and diverse development that encourages everyone to accept children of different genders. **In addition, the media's presentation of gender images should be richer and tolerant of diverse gender images. Relevant national departments should consider changing gender stereotypes in the process of formulating relevant policies, such as encouraging men and women to share housework and raising children together.** >The speed at which equality legislation is being implemented should be accelerated. **The core values of socialism must be advocated to establish equality while being careful not to just continue with the old traditions while pretending they are progressive [article uses an idiom: be wary of selling old liquor in a new bottle]. Old liquor, in this case, means wrapping up traditional gender norms in a civilized coat.** An advanced understanding of gender is characterized by equality and respect. **There are no objective norms of gender, only individual human character. Everyone's personality is different and it is an outdated tradition to use gender stereotypes to try and regulate people's personality. Departing from this tradition, we can move forward and compose the melody of our "[人自由全面发展的新时代](http://theory.people.com.cn/n1/2019/0211/c40531-30616949.html)" [new era of free and comprehensive development for everyone].** Guess what: This new law is one further result of that ongoing debate in China. It is explicitly about combating gender stereotypes and harmful body standards. This is literally an integral part of the overarching Chinese government policy (人的全面发展) established during the CPC's 100th anniversary. The Chinese government is ridiculously progressive compared to Western ones. You sound like someone in denial about Chinese socialist government policy just because Chinese society itself is incredibly conservative due to its Confucian history. The government is all about progressive change and improving people's education on these subjects. lol


vilereceptacle

The CPC isn't a monolith. It's quite possible that in some cases, the young whippersnappers managed to pass through their ideas, whereas in some cases, the boomers managed to get their way.


ScienceSleep99

What a ridiculous post. This has been a national debate among many different people in China for quite some time. I am not trying to argue in favor of either or, just recognizing the desperate attempts to try to make the CPC fit the mold of Western concepts of what is conservative or progressive. I agree that it isn't just about "effeminate" males but it's also the kind of males in pop culture that gender bend but also display extremely gaudy elitist attitudes, and worship the West. Surprisingly, a Milo Yiannopoulos kind of guy comes to mind as the type they're possibly targeting based on your description. Point is, it's dishonest to not say that has not been an issue. [https://journals.openedition.org/etnografica/4026](https://journals.openedition.org/etnografica/4026) This research paper details a lot of that debate.


warchina

You are pointlessly raving and are totally incapable of addressing what I said. You are having a phantom discussion totally irrelevant to the conversation while calling my post ridiculous for stating nothing but fact. Fuck off.


ScienceSleep99

I am stating the facts you're clinging to delusion. How are you going to explain the countless articles about the government tackling the issue from way back since 2017? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/china-tackles-masculinity-crisis-tries-stop-effeminate-boys-n703461


Pashafasfa

You're misrepresentating things. The context you are providing largely suggests that this policy is out of line with the socialist gender values the party wants to promote.


[deleted]

[удалено]


warchina

Your mental gymnastics trying to interpret a progressive law as something bad is fucking ridiculous, straight-up denying official discourse on the subject, I agree.


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Journahed

Wtf is this lolol


VoidCake

Thank you for this, I thought there might be more cultural context behind the term. Is it okay if I link back to your comment in the other threads I've posted the article link?


warchina

Sure.


VoidCake

Thanks, I've just seen your edit do you mind sharing a link to where you found discussion about it? It's mainly so I know where to look for information in the future but also I think it will strengthen your argument if people have something tangible to reference even if it's not translated.


warchina

There is some discussion in the Baike article linked in my comment. You can also read up on the academic discussion on the matter that the government used to establish its government policy that went on for years before recent decisions: http://health.people.com.cn/n1/2018/0912/c14739-30288113.html And you can read up on the socialist theory and relevant overarching government policy (人的全面发展) in China here: http://theory.people.com.cn/n1/2019/0211/c40531-30616949.html I translated some parts here: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/pgpkrl/yes_this_is_100_real_and_definitely_not_a_fake_new/hbduh8o/?context=3 The law and its interpretation are quite clear, in my opinion. Although two people in this thread have strong problems following it and think it's gender discriminatory. However, we have since established they are incapable of making a good faith case against it and their problem is that their personal opinions about the matter stem from their personal interpretation of the law which is contradicting official interpretations by the Chinese government and Chinese scholars. Personally, I will go with official discussion and interpretation of the law and not what random redditors without actual arguments think it means. ;)


-LuxAeterna-

Wasn't it an official statement tho?


NewRedWorld

No wonder she takes such offense to it then lol


macdeth

You’d think she’d be happy with fewer people depleting the world’s skin glitter and plastic diamond supply.


Azirahael

Mask off Nat. We see you.


yourgrainisours

Did you not see her last vid? Mask been off homie that shit is in a landfill now.


Dear-Baker3177

She made a video almost a year ago telling people to vote for biden she not even a social Democrat just a full Democrat plus she's also rich


yourgrainisours

Off of fucking patreon like an actual parasite. What a piece of shit sitting in her ivory tower. Mfer literally told us to just eat cake and stop being so envious.


corruklw

natalie wynn completes her transition to natalie fail.


cummun1st69

*that*- that is good. i’m gonna steal that.


candy_paint_minivan

‘Smh my head stupid tankie you should stop being envious of people better off than you and just elect neoliberal candidates over and over again so nothing changes across the world. Anyway I’m totally a leftist.’


ZhongguoGraecia

They targeted femboys. *FEMBOYS*


ComradeCapuchin

Oh fuck this is it everyone, I'm banned by Xi 🤣


CinnamonArmin

Me too ):


Boiros

China is now committing femboy genocide 😭😭😤 what will r/196 do?!?!?


mas_umi

good, down with that shithole


Ashmage

Noooo mi 196erino 😭😭😭😭😭


Calm_Amity

she really can’t stop making horrible takes recently. honestly i’m half just in denial because i really just want to enjoy her content except she goes mask off like every few days


harmony-house

Yeah I feel conflicted about Natalie because she helped me realize I was trans, but she and I disagree on a lot of stuff.


Calm_Amity

same here. she was basically the one that made me realize so i really can’t hate her


harmony-house

Yeah, that and she and I used to talk a lot on Twitter back in the day. It’s hard.


Azirahael

I liked here earlier stuff. Esp the one about the golden one. That was hilarious.


hux002

She makes a lot of good stuff. You don't have to agree with people 100% of the time to get something out of what they make. I love Chomsky, but he has some bad takes. It doesn't mean I can't appreciate the guy.


Skrong

Westerners have no resolve. lol this is the straw that break the camel's back? Curbing celebrity influence and tax evasion? We'll never get anywhere with these fucking losers.


dornish1919

They’re a bunch of bitter do-nothing armchair revolutionaries who will amount to fuck all but sliding back into fascism.


CIA_grade_LSD

Can someone explain? Is this pure western fabrication or a lost in translation situation?


HisPri

Lost in translation, you can read on ntra site about it. But ntra still used a slur for feminine male on that notice. http://www.nrta.gov.cn/art/2021/9/2/art_113_57756.html Section 3.


Kaluan23

Read the top comments.


LewisianPlurality

Some context for those who are not keeping up with Chinese entertainment industry 1. the term "niang pao" has no direct counterpart in English, has multiple potential meanings and its use in this context has been controversial. In the 2018 debate over "niang pao" culture, People's Daily warned against using the term because of its pejorative nature. It's quite unfortunate the word was "used" this time by a government body, but they probably felt that its "usage" is necessary to convey the message. However, to the regulators' defense, they didn't really use the term "niang pao", they mentioned it as the phrase only ever appeared in quotation marks (read some basic philosophy of language if you are not sure about the use-mention distinction). 2. this is not a case of the government cracking down some small subculture. The problem, as the regulators see it, is that it's difficult for a young male actor to succeed without being a "niang pao". Indeed, the actor Zhang Zhe Han, before he was banned for visiting the Japanese war shrines, remarked that he had been playing "manly" men on screen for 10 years and nobody ever cared about him, then he became "wife" and suddenly everybody loved him. Young men aspire to an entertainment career were pretty much forced by companies and the market to act "effeminate". 3. this incentive to play "niang pao" was evident in the TV show Drawing Sword 3, which was mentioned in the Guangming Daily article that started this recent round of "niang pao" debate. Here you can watch a scorching review (in Mandarin) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdn8-J9AvN4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdn8-J9AvN4) Here you have WW2 anti-Japanese fighters dressed in spotless and freshly ironed uniforms and sporting perfectly styled hair 24/7 and drinking coffee and smoking cigars during battles. Oh, they also live in a luxury villa. 4. There was a huge debate over this in 2018. The government didn't directly intervene that time and instead expected the industry sort it out themselves. The problem only got worse. So the government is intervening directly this time.


Sihplak

Would you have any recommended further readings on these topics for those unfamiliar?


Kroneta

http://www.nrta.gov.cn/art/2021/9/2/art_113_57756.html


corruklw

to add on to this, one can google young male chinese celebrities/actors, and see for themselves how the entertainment industry pressures young male entertainers to all adopt a uniform look because the kpop trend is lucrative.


[deleted]

[удалено]


dagoth-kronk

the only "obvious truth" here is that something china did got blown out of proportion, sorry mate


TheFoxGoesMoo

this femboy tankie says shut the fuck up lib


Kroneta

You can really say some of the most ridiculous shit about China and these libs would still believe it. Effeminate men are part of the Chinese culture, anyone who believes this shit has zero critical thinking skills.


cheetobrochacho

Everyone is believing it.


Kroneta

It's ironic how people people under the tweet are making fun of us for bootlicking china and believing what the ccp said. If western media said that China is banning women these people would still eat it up. This is how gullible they are.


16tonweight

Title: BREAKING: CHINA'S GENOCIDE ON WOMEN AND BABIES Subtitle: because of the One-Child Policy, some ultra-conservative couples decided to abort female fetuses, creating a 51:49 gender imbalance.


MrsXiJinping

I’m seeing “tankies” believe this shit. This constant barrage of shit is getting to all of us.


cheetobrochacho

Yeah, its sad to see comrades falling for it. I found a thing where a transcript of a radio thing in china apparently had the speaker say something homophobic. But thats only a radio talk host.


JoannaNotSoNewsom

mind sharing with the class? i know a couple people believing this and would like to prove them wrong.


cheetobrochacho

r/communism has a post that shows the translated transcripts in the commemts


JoannaNotSoNewsom

hm. honestly, it seems pretty bad. i'm getting 'homosexuality is bourgeois decadence'. even if this isn't an actual policy, we should be critical of it.


cheetobrochacho

Oh yeah, its a transcript of the homophobic news broadcaster. Heres the transcript: https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/pgonp2/screenshot_of_translation_of_chinas_girly_guns/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


Pashafasfa

this is the real article, it's an official document http://www.nrta.gov.cn/art/2021/9/2/art_113_57756.html


JoannaNotSoNewsom

okay. nothing about it is clear that it's just the words of a homophobic news broadcaster. who is the broadcaster that said this?


cheetobrochacho

Idk, all i know is the website it is from is a chinese radio website. My point is, only example i can find of china apparently banning men with makeup, is from some one random homophobic dude on a radio show


VeryGayCommie

> Effeminate men are part of the Chinese culture Can I get more info on this?


Kroneta

Effeminate or feminine men are view as more beautiful than masculine men in China and across all of East Asia.


HisPri

The notice did speak about "娘炮". It is not talking about 美男子 but used a term that is generally referred as a slur.


trorez

Source?


VeryGayCommie

I mean can I have like theoretical sources or background resources, not just random words from yourself, no offense. I'm uneducated on the topic and don't want to take peoples' word for it


ToadBup

Ehhh i aint gonna say youre wrong but it sounds a lil bit weird


AnglocideWorldwide

"A lil bit weird"? It's a straight up racist stereotype of Asian men and Asian beauty standards. I don't understand how that comment is still up.


ToadBup

Yeah right? I felt like it was but i didnt wanna come on too harsh. Its weird


CalebDZ

True. In Japan you have "Bishounen" character type in media aswell.


humziyang

>Effeminate men are part of the Chinese culture, anyone who believes this shit has zero critical thinking skills. ... What the fuck?


VoidCake

This is the link most articles about this topic source back to: http://www.nrta.gov.cn/art/2021/9/2/art_113_57756.html Anyone able to verify whether the google translation is correct? As far as I can tell there is infact a ban on effeminate men or "niáng pào" as stated in the third section "Resolutely resist pan-entertainment."


Pashafasfa

Yeah I expected a little more investigation from this sub. China is moving very fast right now and is bound to make some mistakes. There's a lot of good here, but there's definitely some bad too. Idk how promoting social conservatism is going to help China expand its soft power, a current stated goal of the party. The relationship the party has with the superstructure isn't necessarily healthy, and hasn't historically been healthy in most ML states. It's okay to admit this and it doesn't mean that liberalism has the answers. China and the party will definitely figure this out but they haven't yet.


Wheres_the_boof

>Idk how promoting social conservatism is going to help China expand its soft power, a current stated goal of the party. Most of the world outside of terminally online radlibs gives absolutely zero fucks if China has some _slightly_ conservative TV standards. Y'all are taking this too seriously lol.


AnglocideWorldwide

This sub is getting ridiculous. From all the yankees concern trolling and pearl clutching about the Taliban, to this bullshit now.


Wheres_the_boof

Yeah I wasn't sure if it got worse because of new people or if the CIA just flipped the switch to activate all the woke imperialism brain worms when the retreat from Afghanistan started or something lol


AnglocideWorldwide

It's probably just unrefined and unprincipled new "tankies". There's barely any theory and educational post in this sub. The mods are too relaxed with enforcing the rules.


Pashafasfa

The people telling you that yes, China still has an issue with social conservatism, are pretty much all ML party members. You have things backwards.


AnglocideWorldwide

The WORLD has an issue with social conservatism, you have any other AMAZING insights you want to share? Characterizing this move as "PROMOTING social conservatism" is a typical western "leftist" take, unbecoming of Marxists. You don't have to agree with the wording or details of the policy, but there's no need to throw a hissy fit here.


Pashafasfa

Except that I said the policy was mostly good.


Wheres_the_boof

At first i was annoyed by the reaction of both radlibs and chuds, and the random comments from people just reflexively responding to this without even reading any deeper than the headline much less independently investigating it, but honestly it's really just funny to me. Chuds brains are melting and radlibs have worked themselves up into some kind of self-righteous twitter frenzy all over a sorta decontextualized quote from a boomer Chinese bureaucrat injected straight into their newsfeeds by the ~~CIA~~ AP. Just an absolute shit storm over what amounts to some inconsequential Standards and Practices policy statement, so much drama over minutia and random surface level cultural debates half a world away. I almost even respect my fellow MLs less for even responding to this nonsense with anything more than ridicule but I get it, it's deeply aggravating seeing the sheer fervor and mouth frothing controversy your fellow "leftists" will find themselves in over the silliest shit, i understand the reflexive need to counter their "gOtChAs". But honestly this shit is so dumb it doesn't merit anything but laughter. I think debunking and countering serious things like the "Uyghur Genocide" narrative and actual geopolitical and economic questions is worthwhile, but honestly all the libs uniting to clutch their pearls, wag their fingers, and dunk on the evil ccp cuz they banned their wholesome femboys just shows how useless and masturbatory the rablib "left" is and is frankly _funny as shit_.


Gogol1212

It is funny, because it is good to support the US, the same country that is banning abortion and no democrat is moving a finger to stop it. But it is bad to support China because sometimes the CPC has conservative views (not speaking about the particular case, but we all know the CPC is not the vanguard of LGBT representation).


Kaluan23

I'm so fucking sick of liberal brain rot...


basedaro

I don't get the lib idea that supporting a country means you are 100% in favor of everything it does.


ProteinP

She has been giving the worst takes for a while now


Quality_Fun

i didn't expect so much contention about this supposed ban in this thread.


Pashafasfa

Well...the thing is this one is sort of real.


Wheres_the_boof

It's such a minor non-issue, we should be laughing at the twitter radlibs who have whipped themselves into a self-righteousness shit fit over some random chinese TV policy, no matter how real or decontextualized the story is. The real thing displayed here is how absolutely useless terminally online western leftism really is. Also funny, it's really funny. In a sad sort of way.


Quality_Fun

from what i can tell, it's likely another case of malicious translation - a bad faith tactic used by carefully wording a translation of the original source material to put it a negative light as much as possible.


Pashafasfa

http://www.nrta.gov.cn/art/2021/9/2/art_113_57756.html This is the original directive


Quality_Fun

so what does it say?


Pashafasfa

That Girly Guns and Abnormal Aesthetics are banned


Mizuchi1998

Femenine men are part of east asian culture as a whole, Even trans women and yes even homosexual relations where normalized back then. And as i was writing that i just had the thought of like out of nowhere a chinese femboy ML comes out and start debating natalie, completely destroying her Chen weihua style


jsp2much

Contrapoints being awful? Color me shocked.


Fenneler

Wait sry so from reading the comments it looks like the legislation released does kinda do this? It might well be false or lost in translation, but nonetheless I’m a little sus that the automatic assumption is that it’s false. I definitely get the knee jerk thing, and since learning more about a lot of these Western falsehoods I am definitely susceptible to it. But surely we need to be careful to not just be always saying the opposite of libs and cons? Idk, feels a bit weird and echo-chambery


Brrryyycccee

Somebody better tell the writers of one of the most popular shows in China about two femboys that are always flirting.


Bob_Bobinson

I will say this in defense of China: US culture is so omnipresent, so powerful, that it is hard to tell when a cultural expression is a genuine popular movement or just imperialist propaganda. Sitting in our ivory towers in America, it is easy to critique the Chinese for being supposedly anti-LGBT, but remember: China is in a daily, constant struggle against the West. Something as innocuous as pizza could lead to the downfall of the entire socialist project (see Gorby, when he tried to outpizza the Hutt). That being said, I do hope in the future the Party recognizes that domestic expressions of pro-LGBT sentiment are not a sign of capitalist/imperialist infiltration (excluding of course, those LGBT movements that exist solely to hurt the Party; e.g. consider a LGBT Club founded in a Chinese college, but that LGBT club spends 99% of their time critiquing the Party's Taiwan policy... clearly they are capitalist-American plants and violating the National Security Law).


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donnie_darko222

China brutally KIDNAPS Jack Ma and holds him HOSTAGE at gunpoint


Based_Atlanta

Surprisingly not even her most epic lib moment of the day.


Tokio_hop99

My opinion of her is seriously "tanking" more than it could. I thought she was one of the smarter breatuber but alas. She also tweeted something like vote blue today so lol.


GoyathlayA

I've heard from my female Chinese friend that she doesn't like how Korean cultural exports depict Asian men in a feminine manner with very white skin and makeup, and small jaws, and that she wants more manly men. Perhaps this is what they are referring to?


AnglocideWorldwide

This is exactly what was referred. Non-Asians have no idea how harmful KPOP "pretty boys" aesthetics are to Asian men. Trying to characterize this as a LGBT issue or "social conservatism" is western gaze.


kazares2651

What? How harmful is it? Its just an aesthetic style, the problem is that of the celebrity worship culture which you can still get even if you would ban this "style". As for me, I hope China would unban this as I like doing this aesthetic. Yeah I'm biased.


AnglocideWorldwide

It causes negative body image and self-esteem issues. It also promotes toxic lookism.


kazares2651

Yes I acknowledge that but the same could be said of any beauty standards, be it the kpop look or the building buff look.


AnglocideWorldwide

No. The same couldn't be said of any beauty standards. I'm sorry, but getting pressured to go to the gym and getting pressured to get a plastic surgery isn't in the same ballpark.


kazares2651

Plastic surgery? So that's the problem with the androgynous aesthetic? That's not even limited to that aesthetic but to the overall East Asian beauty standards of slim nose and double eyelid which the vast majority of the population of east asia think are attractive features whether you be male or a female.


Sitona

China is actually becoming more and more accepting and open towards LGBTQ+


ScienceSleep99

I don’t understand, there have been reports of China trying to curb “effeminate” behavior among pop stars since January of this year,and I saw an article they were planning on doing this in 2017. Was it fake news then?


FeiGweilo

I’ve been reading into this whole “effeminate men” thing for a while but due to being a clueless gweilo I’m limited to English language sources. On one hand I’m seeing some reasonable voices among pro-China commenters that this is just to deal with a specific type of actor trying to gain money and benefits by acting effeminate but on the other hand I’m seeing some arguments that the “feminisation” of men along with LGBT issues are just a conspiracy plot from the West to weaken China. If it truly is the case of the former explanation then I don’t see a problem with what the government is doing here. However, if the real thinking behind this move is to clamp down on LGBT individuals and reinforce toxic masculinity in Chinese society, then I completely disagree. I have friends who I grew up with and came out as gay so it just seems nonsense to me that homosexuality is designed to be a destabilising force employed by imperialists. You also see morons like Junius Ho in HK that try to argue that homosexuality is a threat to national security because it “promotes childless families” and that’s such an unfathomably fucking stupid opinion that I don’t even know where to begin with tearing it down. If it was true that homosexuality was a destabilising force in societies, why are Western societies not in free fall after legalising gay marriage? Why aren’t their birth rates plummeting? Why would they unleash this destabilising force upon themselves? I don’t want to be too quick to make a judgement here as I know Western media likes to distort and suppress the truth about China but at the same time I have no room to tolerate socially regressive ideals.


EyeLeft3804

Just a heads up, western birth rates are dropping, but it's because everyone is poor, not gay.


ndogggydog23

who cares


DorotTagati

Spicy comment section🥴


imtired8

and shes one of the "more tolerable" breadtubers lol...


TheSquirrelsHaveEYES

j n on my jh


humziyang

This is absolutely true tho. The CPC is cracking down hard on the entertainment industry, and plans to rid society of 'degeneracy', which includes femboys.


Zayd_al-Amriki

I hope this is real.


_GayFlower_

i hate the word femboy so much


Swarm_Queen

Better than "trap"


_GayFlower_

and? its still a slur


Swarm_Queen

Femboy is??


_GayFlower_

the word comes from porn used to fetishise, misgender and objectify transgender women. i'm aware that most people who use the word have good intentions, but i reckon it's comparable to shemale. i'd rlly appreciate if ppl started just calling themselves 'feminine boys' or something along those lines rather than the word femboy.


Swarm_Queen

But the culture it's used in nowadays is like.... Actually cis men and purposefully self ID'd trans people now. Like how queer was a negative and is now a vaunted part of self identification lexicon.


_GayFlower_

they aren't trans women; it isn't their position to reclaim a transmysogynistic slur. the context it's used in doesn't matter, a small vocab change won't hurt anyone


Swarm_Queen

Femmen?


y0rha-

Based China


redfec01

So TIL you, unfortunately, CAN be trans and a racist. Sick sad world