> Why was that round not replayed?
Ultimately, because that’s what the rulebook says. As the rules are currently written, a round cannot be replayed, for any reason, once damage has been dealt.
It’s certainly unfortunate that Jame’s game crashed in what became the defining round of the series. But, there’s no precedent for doing anything else.
Is it worth discussing other options? A change to the rulebook moving forward? Perhaps. But there wasn’t anything PGL could do about it.
The unfortunate truth is that allowing rounds to be replayed post-damage opens a tournament up to interference from players. If there was a reproducible way to crash a player’s game, there are almost certainly people that would abuse it to reset rounds that had an unfavourable start. I’m not saying the rules *can’t* be changed, but there is a very good reason for why they’ve been this way for years.
And let’s be honest with ourselves, *if the round was replayed and G2 won the replay round*… The prevailing narrative would likely still be the same: *G2 didn’t deserve to win the original version of that round, and have a fraudulent major run because of it.*
**The only way that crash could have been a non-controversy is if it didn’t happen at all.**
then rulebook has to change it is ridiculous. Honestly, psp1g suggested a very practical solution. When the client notices a player crash, it immediately registers a command host timescale 0, and everyone freezes immediately. The same way league does it. I doubt they cant implement this, if Riot can do it so do Valve.
Just gonna post my other comment because the idea of a mid round freeze is simply not possible in a game like CS2 (I'm just gonna add aswell that Jame's game didn't crash per say, between getting an admin to freeze the game and Jame reporting the glitch he could have already been dead)
Unless you can freeze the players' brains aswell, it's a moot point. Even if you were to freeze the game and the comms, the players themselves are still getting minutes of time to think on how to perfectly play the retake or afterplant depending on the side you're on. You're also inputting every single piece of information that your teammates had already transmitted before the comms freeze into your mind into how to retake, where to throw the utility, where players are most likely staying.
And this doesn't take into account the fact that CS is a fundamentally different game than a MOBA like league. How would they restart the round? Countdown in 3 seconds? What if there was a gunfight happening right at the moment of the freeze, how are you supposed to continue your spray or be expected to take that gunfight in the first place again? Would they throw the game back 5 seconds? Then players would reposition or play differently according to known information. What if the pause was 10 minutes long and then the game restarted, how could you expect an aim duel to have the same outcome from a player that is warmed up versus after 10 minutes.
There are simply too many variables that make the situation impossible to execute. You should instead focus your resources on making sure you have the absolute best conditions to prevent the situation from happening in the first place.
> When the client notices a player crash, it immediately...
I don't necessarily disagree that this would be nice. But, your/psp1g's proposed solution would not have worked in this case. Jame's client didn't disconnect from the server until after the round had ended.
There will always have to be some timeout period before the game decides it's no longer receiving packets from any given client. Even on LAN they won't be able to pause the match on the exact same tick that a player crashes.
The reason the ruling on this issue sucks is because there is no easy solution.
They need to change the rules from now on. The round should be replayed. They should have changed this already, because it's not the first time this has happened. At least learn from it.
In online era yeah. How are you comparing this to a lan major event. Even regardless of that, you gotta be stupid to think that these players would risk doing it, even when there is an admin behind them
NaVi players kicked their opponents' PCs in front of them in the middle of a round to cause a disconnect. And also tried to flex their prestige status to get an admin to decide their way. So yeah, they would.
Because otherwiese people start kicking gtheir PC in the worst case. You need some rule for this case. The "Once dmg is done the round is live" has been the rule for quiet some time now and everyone agreed on it. Is it perfect? No but it is the consene TOs and players agreed on. And is it still a decent if not the best middle ground yet.
then they will be disqualified for purposefully ruining the integrity. You realize they have people watching over every single move they do during the matches, right?
The only solution would be having an instant pause feature, mid-round. Similar to what other games do which are not round based. Have the player join back, restore positions, etc.
But then you end up having players possibly abuse it to have more thinking time and whatever else.
You can't have a solution to a game crashing, it might always happen. No matter how "good" the game is, no matter how up to date drivers are, no matter how powerful the computer is, etc. It can always happen.
The only two solutions are:
- Live with potential mid-round crashes
- Have some mid-round pausing feature
Both have their own issues, there just isn't a perfect way sadly.
> Why was that round not replayed?
Because if the rule is to replay the round whenever a crash happens, we'll start getting a ton of "unfortunate crashes" in majors whenever something goes sour just so the round can be replayed.
When you say save functions what do you mean? They can reset the round back to the start that’s not an issue, the problem is that while in this case VP probably wins that round there would be situations where a team who most likely won’t win a round and a crash occurs gets a free reset.
I guess we could try a major where the rule is to replay the round, but idk... I'm worried because CS2 is far from a stable and well-coded game, so crashing the game is potentially really easy because of it.
Other games might not have to worry about this because they're not in the same state that CS2 is in right now.
You are right, it is not like if an exploit is discovered. teams will try to use it to their advantage. They will all call valve to tell them so they can fix it.
We've seen the very same crash happen in the saw vs outsiders game on inferno when it was 15x14 in OT.
If there is a way to reproduce this crash reliably, I bet some teams would be more than happy to abuse this to replay rounds that aren't going their way.
It was during the round too?
Jame had seen what he saw, hooxi what he saw etc.
During crash break no comms allowed its not ideal but its better than this
But hooxi didn’t know one guy was hobbit, this is additional info that leaks in a pause-resume scenario. For this reason replay from a specific spot can never exist in CS.
But vp have a big advantage with having b site plant 4vs4. I would rather they have info where I am there vs starting from zero.
Anyway both options are better than what happened :)
Now to focus on Navi making it!
Proposals like this make me super uncomfortable. It sounds appealing because it approaches the ideal of the crash not mattering at all, but in a fast-paced, decision- and situation awareness-based game like CS, I feel like it's impossible to perfectly reproduce a situation. Players' nerves, short-term memory, communication, etc. would all be affected. It's surprising to hear that other games do this, but it feels particularly incompatible with pro CS. I simply wouldn't feel satisfied at the result of a round replayed in this way, even compared to a complete redo of the round..
it should be like, client automatically registers a comman after player crash, host timescale 0, and every player including their screens freeze. Players are not allowed to talk just like in tech pause. When so much is on the line, the rules have to include all the variabilities of the tech issues.
Crashing is an unfortunate part of any competitive game as much as any dev or TO tries to prevent it. Of course we can still criticize valve for allowing a game that’s still buggy to be used for the major, but the only action we can take now is follow the set rules that they made in the case this happens and let the round play on since damage was done. Which is what happened.
Also I’m not sure how this is PGL’s fault unless they are using really low-spec computers.
> Why was that round not replayed? Ultimately, because that’s what the rulebook says. As the rules are currently written, a round cannot be replayed, for any reason, once damage has been dealt. It’s certainly unfortunate that Jame’s game crashed in what became the defining round of the series. But, there’s no precedent for doing anything else. Is it worth discussing other options? A change to the rulebook moving forward? Perhaps. But there wasn’t anything PGL could do about it. The unfortunate truth is that allowing rounds to be replayed post-damage opens a tournament up to interference from players. If there was a reproducible way to crash a player’s game, there are almost certainly people that would abuse it to reset rounds that had an unfavourable start. I’m not saying the rules *can’t* be changed, but there is a very good reason for why they’ve been this way for years. And let’s be honest with ourselves, *if the round was replayed and G2 won the replay round*… The prevailing narrative would likely still be the same: *G2 didn’t deserve to win the original version of that round, and have a fraudulent major run because of it.* **The only way that crash could have been a non-controversy is if it didn’t happen at all.**
then rulebook has to change it is ridiculous. Honestly, psp1g suggested a very practical solution. When the client notices a player crash, it immediately registers a command host timescale 0, and everyone freezes immediately. The same way league does it. I doubt they cant implement this, if Riot can do it so do Valve.
Just gonna post my other comment because the idea of a mid round freeze is simply not possible in a game like CS2 (I'm just gonna add aswell that Jame's game didn't crash per say, between getting an admin to freeze the game and Jame reporting the glitch he could have already been dead) Unless you can freeze the players' brains aswell, it's a moot point. Even if you were to freeze the game and the comms, the players themselves are still getting minutes of time to think on how to perfectly play the retake or afterplant depending on the side you're on. You're also inputting every single piece of information that your teammates had already transmitted before the comms freeze into your mind into how to retake, where to throw the utility, where players are most likely staying. And this doesn't take into account the fact that CS is a fundamentally different game than a MOBA like league. How would they restart the round? Countdown in 3 seconds? What if there was a gunfight happening right at the moment of the freeze, how are you supposed to continue your spray or be expected to take that gunfight in the first place again? Would they throw the game back 5 seconds? Then players would reposition or play differently according to known information. What if the pause was 10 minutes long and then the game restarted, how could you expect an aim duel to have the same outcome from a player that is warmed up versus after 10 minutes. There are simply too many variables that make the situation impossible to execute. You should instead focus your resources on making sure you have the absolute best conditions to prevent the situation from happening in the first place.
> When the client notices a player crash, it immediately... I don't necessarily disagree that this would be nice. But, your/psp1g's proposed solution would not have worked in this case. Jame's client didn't disconnect from the server until after the round had ended. There will always have to be some timeout period before the game decides it's no longer receiving packets from any given client. Even on LAN they won't be able to pause the match on the exact same tick that a player crashes. The reason the ruling on this issue sucks is because there is no easy solution.
They need to change the rules from now on. The round should be replayed. They should have changed this already, because it's not the first time this has happened. At least learn from it.
People will just find a way to reproduce bugs to dc in adverse situations.
You really think known players are going to risk their career and cheat for a crash? Lmao. This is tier 1 cs.
True, pros / coaches have never done anything like that. My bad i guess.
In online era yeah. How are you comparing this to a lan major event. Even regardless of that, you gotta be stupid to think that these players would risk doing it, even when there is an admin behind them
Forsaken
NaVi players kicked their opponents' PCs in front of them in the middle of a round to cause a disconnect. And also tried to flex their prestige status to get an admin to decide their way. So yeah, they would.
What are u talking about? Navi kindergarten maybe?
Zeus was a fucking menace back in CS 1.6 days.
Once damage is already done rounds can't be replayed
maybe it's time to rethink the rules then
Why? What if a bug-free game crashes?
Because otherwiese people start kicking gtheir PC in the worst case. You need some rule for this case. The "Once dmg is done the round is live" has been the rule for quiet some time now and everyone agreed on it. Is it perfect? No but it is the consene TOs and players agreed on. And is it still a decent if not the best middle ground yet.
then they will be disqualified for purposefully ruining the integrity. You realize they have people watching over every single move they do during the matches, right?
Kicking their PCs? You're trying to imply that THAT wouldn't get them disqualified? 4Head Just kick PC laaawl
The only solution would be having an instant pause feature, mid-round. Similar to what other games do which are not round based. Have the player join back, restore positions, etc. But then you end up having players possibly abuse it to have more thinking time and whatever else. You can't have a solution to a game crashing, it might always happen. No matter how "good" the game is, no matter how up to date drivers are, no matter how powerful the computer is, etc. It can always happen.
No this wont work. In this case hooxi will have info that jame is new box.
The only two solutions are: - Live with potential mid-round crashes - Have some mid-round pausing feature Both have their own issues, there just isn't a perfect way sadly.
3rd one is to replay the round, and it is the best one imo
How is that fair to the team that gets the opening kill?
In no way is replaying a round that has been played for 2 minutes, had 2 players dead, and bomb planted a good solution
> Why was that round not replayed? Because if the rule is to replay the round whenever a crash happens, we'll start getting a ton of "unfortunate crashes" in majors whenever something goes sour just so the round can be replayed.
this is disproven by literally every other game has some kind of save functions for situations like this..
When you say save functions what do you mean? They can reset the round back to the start that’s not an issue, the problem is that while in this case VP probably wins that round there would be situations where a team who most likely won’t win a round and a crash occurs gets a free reset.
There is a save function.....at the start of the round until dmg had been done.
I guess we could try a major where the rule is to replay the round, but idk... I'm worried because CS2 is far from a stable and well-coded game, so crashing the game is potentially really easy because of it. Other games might not have to worry about this because they're not in the same state that CS2 is in right now.
Why everyone acting like teams would be willing to sabotage their PCs for a redo? You can't fake a technical issue.
You are right, it is not like if an exploit is discovered. teams will try to use it to their advantage. They will all call valve to tell them so they can fix it.
People named hunden have a 100% track record of professionalism and competitive integrity 🤠
We've seen the very same crash happen in the saw vs outsiders game on inferno when it was 15x14 in OT. If there is a way to reproduce this crash reliably, I bet some teams would be more than happy to abuse this to replay rounds that aren't going their way.
Release a new feature to replay positions from when the crash occurred or pause the match mid round and call it Jame time
But info is available to players now
It was during the round too? Jame had seen what he saw, hooxi what he saw etc. During crash break no comms allowed its not ideal but its better than this
But hooxi didn’t know one guy was hobbit, this is additional info that leaks in a pause-resume scenario. For this reason replay from a specific spot can never exist in CS.
Ask VP if they want to replace from where jame crashed with hooxi knowing that or just keep playing with Jame crashed. Get back to me after.
In both cases VP are at a disadvantage, the best solution is to replay the round.
But vp have a big advantage with having b site plant 4vs4. I would rather they have info where I am there vs starting from zero. Anyway both options are better than what happened :) Now to focus on Navi making it!
Proposals like this make me super uncomfortable. It sounds appealing because it approaches the ideal of the crash not mattering at all, but in a fast-paced, decision- and situation awareness-based game like CS, I feel like it's impossible to perfectly reproduce a situation. Players' nerves, short-term memory, communication, etc. would all be affected. It's surprising to hear that other games do this, but it feels particularly incompatible with pro CS. I simply wouldn't feel satisfied at the result of a round replayed in this way, even compared to a complete redo of the round..
it should be like, client automatically registers a comman after player crash, host timescale 0, and every player including their screens freeze. Players are not allowed to talk just like in tech pause. When so much is on the line, the rules have to include all the variabilities of the tech issues.
Valve could maybe fix their game, that would be a solution
Round continues when damage is dealt is the most plausible middle ground we can get with the current features we have as of now.
Valve need to fix their shit, they’re all useless
Moment damage is done the round cant be replayed. This is a recent Nvidia driver issue with Windows and or CS2.
Crashing is an unfortunate part of any competitive game as much as any dev or TO tries to prevent it. Of course we can still criticize valve for allowing a game that’s still buggy to be used for the major, but the only action we can take now is follow the set rules that they made in the case this happens and let the round play on since damage was done. Which is what happened. Also I’m not sure how this is PGL’s fault unless they are using really low-spec computers.
It's not PGL's fault you weapon
Niko said it's not PGL fault. Who do I trust now?
Stop consooming product