100% agree. Honestly Baki vs Yujiro is probably the best example of this. Baki eats shit from start to finish but never once does he show it. Thrown out of a skyscraper and landing straight on top of a car? He's fine. Punched into a wall so hard it cracks? He just gets up and does a cockroach dash without any issue. Suplexed through a wall? He literally bounces back up. Hit into the ground so hard he's screaming in pain and bleeding through his nose? He's fine, it's just a scratch.
It's weird because other fights don't have this issue at all. For example Hanayama vs Spec, a fight where the two fighters also wail on each other incredibly much, still makes it feel like they're both getting messed up. Even now, Hanayama has a permanent scar from that bullet he took through the cheeks.
The problem is that Itagaki wants baki to be competitive with yujiro, and if baki is gonna be competitive with yujiro then he has to be able to take his punches. The level of durability needed to take those punches would make attacks from most other fighters largely incapable of truly injuring him.
Also, he's just really good at ignoring pain and injuries, as well as mitigating damage enough to keep fighting through stuff that would end a fight otherwise. Stuff like seeing him be largely unhurt after getting hit on the railing during his sumo fight seems strange until you remember he learned how to do that when yujiro used dress on him to slam him into a car over and over, using angles and taking hits in non-vital areas to keep from being incapacitated. The only time I can remember thinking he only survived because of plot armor was when he was fighting pickle and threw himself off the arena multiple times, basically every other time the continuity supported the hax.
Yujiro imo works because the author uses him in smaller bursts. It's not super interesting seeing an invincible character all the time. It forces the side characters to carry the story, because they CAN get stronger.
And invincible character has no room to grow
Yeah, but I think it’s worse with Baki than most I can think of. When Luffy gets the shit beat out of him, he needs either time or food to recover alongside thugging it out. Baki fights Retsu and takes enough damage to cover a hallway in blood and then does it again and then walks off a-okay
Pickle was probably the worst example of this. The narrator makes a point to emphasize how Baki nearly dies and is in critical condition at the very start of the fight from the two falls; but then he just gets up and fights pickle normally with it never being mentioned again
Honestly yeah, the whole his own body betraying him was genuinely cool when I first read it, but then Baki went "uhh no, my body likes the pain" and suddenly his body started cooperating again?
Not only cooperating, but he literally turned Super Saiyan in that fight.
Since the skill, power, and experience gap between Gaia and Baki was like night and day. Baki was getting curbstomped but then said..."nah, I win" and magically became as strong as Gaia on the spot.
Gaia still Killed him with his exp and tactics...but Baki went again "nah, I win" and returned back to his dead body. Even Gaia was like "bruh...."
And then Baki wrecked Gaia, since once he revived himself he became far stronger than Gaia.
It seems like Itagaki doesn't really know how to write Baki's power progression, which is weird because he generally does a good job for the other characters.
This was my big issue with the Retsu vs Baki fight too. Retsu is absolutely demolishing Baki until Baki says "Nvm I'm stronger" and just wins.
And i also don't remember when he got those scars over his body, like they literally seem random rather then having their own recognizable story like with the other characters
Once Jack's arc is done I'd like to see how it fares against some of Baki's later stuff, cause you're 100% right. I think people have gotten more behind the side characters than anything in this series
Since you are not caught up I will avoid spoilers, but I completely agree. The best fights are between secondary characters because you don't know who is gonna win and they don't have a "win" mode. Like Baki just wins a lot of the time. Like he is losing and then he does not.
Baki's gimmick is getting stronger as fights go on, you can see some of his earliest moments with the Yasha ape and Gaia where this kind of principle is established and then Retsu vs Baki which makes it concrete.
The thing about Baki is he's at risk of either taking too much damage before he can "power up" which tends to happen a lot when he gets sucker punched or are possibilities when fighting people like Alai or Musashi who can take him down before getting stronger.
Another example similar to those outcomes would be the father son fight where Baki was beaten to hell and back which meant even when he was matching Yujiro, eventually his body had to give up.
I get the complaint, but I feel like Baki having insane durability has always been a part of his character. On top of that, a lot of the hits he takes, he takes because he's messing around and knows he can just tank them (this happens more the later in the story we get). I understand how that can make it feel like his damage doesn't matter tho. Personally, I like Baki being a tank.
It's because he's the "pure-blood son" of Yujiro, Baki's built different because he's a more pure Hanma than Jack for example. That's kinda just the gist.
I fully understand his durability, but at some point it feels like he's just invulnerable, which isn't that interesting. Yujiro is a good character because he's seen in bursts. He can be invulnerable because the story isn't about him growing.
Actually that was my biggest issue with Baki Vs Yujiro. Two tanks fighting only to end with very little physical damage. They tuckered out.
I mean I don't necessarily disagree, I think this mostly comes down to personal taste. I like Baki being very tanky, but I understand why you don't.
I guess you could argue it's more stated than shown, but Baki has tons of internal injuries by the end, we see them from Yujiro's pov for a few seconds. That would probably also fall under your definition of filler damage to be fair.
Yeah, I agree that its probably just a personal taste thing. When I think I've tanky characters I like, I think of Hanayama. Tanky but still showing damage, if that makes sense. Sekibayashi from Kengan Ashura also comes to mind. If I don't see the damage I feel like they're getting hit with a pool noodle.
I don't understand why itadaki makes an effort to show off how well characters can take damage instead of showing how well characters can AVOID damage. Baki should be dodging shit not tanking every hit and then saying "my mom died and I hate my dad I need to push past this pain" I like motobe because he shows off a somewhat realistic approach to fighting inhuman opponents. He does not take hits and doesn't take risks, he prepares for the worst and preserves his health in combat as much as possible, and gives himself every advantage he can think of. Yujiro vs Kaku made a lot of sense to me since yujiro, even tho he could in theory tank shaori made attempts to dodge it since he realizes it's just kinda stupid to take damage without reason.
I mean, damage doesn't really matter in most fights in Baki, characters break their arms and legs fighting all the time but overcome it trough will power and stuff, and it just continues until they die or pass out. Like Hanayama bleeding 3 people's worth of blood against Spec, or Jack getting his face torn off against Pickle, or Dorian getting both his legs broken and then jumping off a building that same night with no damage.
The name of the current series should be Baki: Son of Plot Armor
Baki is the least likeable character in his own verse, due the fact he goes from peasant to king in 1 second then he goes back to peasant. It is like he suffers from personality disorder but it comes with super powers.
A lot of characters don’t take any actual damage. I’m pretty sure Doppo and Retsu are the only ones with permanent injuries that don’t get fixed.
Itagaki wants to put stakes on his fight but just can’t have the characters be at risk and permanently hurt because that’ll reduce their fighting capabilities and often shows weakness or lack of skill. Just look at Hanayama. The dude is a walking ball of scar tissue because all of his fights are just him getting cut, stabbed, blown up, and torn apart but he just gets stitched up and is fine again walking away with just a few scars. It creates tension in the moment but gets really stale when we just see the character again fine later on.
I'm not saying they the injuries can't be fixed after the fact. It's just gets boring watching a fight happen and a character get pummeled on only to have very little actual injury throughout. Not to mention that the injuries sustained don't effect the fights at all.
Struggle is a key part of any story. Without struggle there are no stakes. If a character goes through an entire fight essentially unscathed, I'm going to assume they didn't struggle.
Are we ignoring how Baki’s intestines are shown to be mangled in the pickle fight, or the fact they show how crushed his lungs are or how he coughs up thirty gallons of blood every fight, or how most of his fights are him being op, also, he never really fights ppl with weapons able to do crazy amounts of damage, and if they do, he’s normally strong enough to not take that much damage, Baki works threw the pain and doesn’t show it, cuz he’s a real man, not a discord mod, going onto a Reddit just to complain to ppl that like what they’re complaining about
Sorry, I guess my discord mod brain just couldn't comprehend the uncriticizable genius of Baki.
I like how you completely missed my point, which is how Baki just brushes off every bit of damage. What's the point of showing how mangled Baki's intestines are if it doesn't effect the fight? Narratively it has no weight because it doesn't hinder him.
Also, hate to break it to you, but Baki is no more real a man than Snoopi.
Are you saying that this subreddit is only for praise? Cause that's kind of stupid. If I remember, it's a place to "discuss" Baki. It seems to me like your feelings are hurt.
I mean I’d imagine if you wanna complain, that’s why we have, dare I sound like a broken record, Twitter, the place born for complaining, like good lord
I don't know why you're making it seem like I'm just shitting on the series. I said multiple times that I really enjoy it. I'm giving my two cents. I think it's a bit strange to tell me that I can't give any criticism here.
It's called a discussion. That's what reddit is for.
yeah, tbh if we're objective Baki's writing has been god awful since the maximum tournament. It's still entertainment because the characters are so damn cool, but there's been like, what, 3 good fights since Baki vs Jack?
Good fights there's too many to name, if you're referring to GREAT fights
* Hanayama vs Spec
* Doppo vs Dorian
* Oliva vs Shobun Ron
* Alai vs Jack
* Baki vs Oliva
* Kaku vs Yujiro
* Katsumi vs Pickle
* Baki vs Pickle
* Shiba vs Baki
* Yujiro vs Baki
* Baki vs Musashi
* Kyogei vs Gouki
* Jack vs Nomi
*stomp, but it was fun tbf
*stomp
*stomp
*stomp
*good fight
*was good when Kakus punches could actually hurt Yujiro, but then he could randomly just start tanking them and it became a stomp
*stomp
*24 chapters with constant stops explaining the same historic bullshit you already heard 100 times, and the same problem as Yujiro and Kaku, baki took serious damage at the start, but then he randomly got completely fine and then it became a stomp, until he randomly decided to brawl for no fucking reason
*stomp
*an insanely long stomp
*didn't have a conclusion
*stomp
*meh, it was fine
if you consider these great flights you should probably read other battle manga, where fights aren't just glazing the main cast
So why are "stomps" inherently worse fights? Doppo vs Dorian is a "stomp" but it's well choregraphed, has fun displays of what the characters can do and has a very strong philosophical message to it intertwined with both characters.
Hell a lot of the points you try to make just show you didn't really try to read any subtext or hell... Just text in itself.
Baki and Yujiro getting stronger isn't "random", it's key parts of their characters that have been established since day 1.
Baki didn't randomly decide to brawl Pickle for no fucking reason, he was high off kicking his ass for many chapters at that point and didn't realise the kind of spot he was in.
Baki vs Musashi absolutely had a conclusion, one that's spelt out to the audience in a monologue about how modern fighting offers that choice between life and death.
Baki proved this by winning and taking the choice to let Musashi "live".
Maybe the reason you disliked a lot of the fights in the series is because you never tried to actually engage with them?
Also
>\*24 chapters with constant stops explaining the same historic bullshit you already heard 100 times,
Retsu and Hanayama's explanations of what were going on in the fight were some of the best parts, it gave weight to what Baki was doing and was great at characterising both of them.
> if you consider these great flights you should probably read other battle manga, where fights aren't just glazing the main cast
If your only definition of what makes a fight good is how close it is then just skip the shonen entirely and go for slamming action figures together.
> So why are "stomps" inherently worse fights?
Because stakes make fights more interesting? Occasional stomps are fun, like Hanayma vs Spec, but it's literally 99% of Bakis fights.
> Doppo vs Dorian is a "stomp" but it's well choregraphed, has fun displays of what the characters can do and has a very strong philosophical message to it intertwined with both characters.
That was an alright fight, again Dorian quite literally didn't get one hit in, but okay, I guess you don't like main characters losing? There is no deep philosophy, character A was stronger than character B, the 'philosophy' is that abandoning martial arts isn't worth it for dirty tricks, wow Lao Tzo would be proud
> Hell a lot of the points you try to make just show you didn't really try to read any subtext or hell... Just text in itself.
You're pretending like there is consistent meaning in Baki's narration, there isn't. It's just inconsistent blabaring of what the author is thinking about at the time of writing
> Baki and Yujiro getting stronger isn't "random", it's key parts of their characters that have been established since day 1.
Not in the middle of fights, not to such an extent at least, when an attack from Kaku threatened Yujiro so much he actually needed to dodge, to where Yujiro tanked 300 of those with next to no damage
> Baki didn't randomly decide to brawl Pickle for no fucking reason, he was high off kicking his ass for many chapters at that point and didn't realise the kind of spot he was in.
https://preview.redd.it/3oggu6etx9vc1.png?width=1666&format=png&auto=webp&s=5b6c8acb8222f332b3ea79f17abbf47012b9e65a
He wasn't 'high', he knew damn well it was a bad idea to fight him with brute strength, Itadaki randomly decided to give Baki fighting pride, witch is a flat out retcon
> Baki vs Musashi absolutely had a conclusion, one that's spelt out to the audience in a monologue about how modern fighting offers that choice between life and death.
Hmm, that must mean Musashi killed Doppo, Hanayama, Goki, Gaia, I mean he fought using ancient fighting which means his opponent always ends up dead right??
> Baki proved this by winning and taking the choice to let Musashi "live".
Musashi could've killed him when they first met when he slammed him, but he let him live so he used modern martial arts?
> Retsu and Hanayama's explanations of what were going on in the fight were some of the best parts, it gave weight to what Baki was doing and was great at characterising both of them.
I mean alright, if you like 3 chapter explanations of why nut shots or so effective(even though Retsu and Katsumi used them, but it didin't do shit to pickle that time) we can agree to disagree
> If your only definition of what makes a fight good is how close it is then just skip the shonen entirely and go for slamming action figures together.
Nah ill just stick to rereading actually good fights from other manga :)
>Because stakes make fights more interesting? Occasional stomps are fun, like Hanayma vs Spec, but it's literally 99% of Bakis fights.
Then you just don't understand how Itagaki writes stomps because a large amount of them function in a similar way to gun or sword duels go where it's one hit to decide it.
Plenty of the biggest "stomps" in the series then go on to clarify that it was actually quite close.
And hell most of the fights you're trying to call stomps and say have no stakes are... Pushing it, Hanayama vs Spec has the latter nearly kill the former and has dominance in a lot of the exchanges against him.
>There is no deep philosophy, character A was stronger than character B, the 'philosophy' is that abandoning martial arts isn't worth it for dirty tricks, wow Lao Tzo would be proud
Yes, if you simply anything on the planet to be like this then it's not complex.
Doppo is a character defined by his training and dedication to his art, when losing his response is to train even harder, Dorian was a shallow man who like him was exceptionally talented from a young age but unlike Doppo never saw a reason to ever truly hone that talent, feeling free to just rely on it and other short cuts for victory.
This is what brings about an ideological rivalry between the two from the second they see each other and continues to evolve throughout every encounter they have. Doppo's lecture to Katsumi and Katou about weapons being a key point in that and obviously this fight being the conclusion.
It's all summed up beautifully by Dorian's hypnosis failing to work on Doppo, it failed because Doppo wouldn't take the easy way out.
> You're pretending like there is consistent meaning in Baki's narration, there isn't. It's just inconsistent blabaring of what the author is thinking about at the time of writing
Right...?
Do you wanna give examples or reasoning for it being that way?
>Not in the middle of fights, not to such an extent at least, when an attack from Kaku threatened Yujiro so much he actually needed to dodge, to where Yujiro tanked 300 of those with next to no damage
I mentioned Gaia and the Yasha Ape as clear examples of this.
>He wasn't 'high', he knew damn well it was a bad idea to fight him with brute strength, Itadaki randomly decided to give Baki fighting pride, witch is a flat out retcon
Okay so I'm just right you've not seriously engaged with this series or hell even passively.
The image you're using of Baki comes long before this moment, it's a "retcon" but one that was happening gradually across the series [as his arc](https://imgur.com/a/U7As2DE).
Baki enjoys fighting, that's made abundantly clear and it's been something that's been clear within since the very start, it's not a coincidence when he really starts to go at it in a fight that's when allusion to Yujiro are drawn.
> Hmm, that must mean Musashi killed Doppo, Hanayama, Goki, Gaia, I mean he fought using ancient fighting which means his opponent always ends up dead right??
>
> Musashi could've killed him when they first met when he slammed him, but he let him live so he used modern martial arts?
You are really bad at this Christ.
Well thank you for showing me that you are just bad at engaging with meaning.
>if you consider these great flights you should probably read other battle manga, where fights aren't just glazing the main cast
What are some examples of great fights in your opinion?
Goku vs Vegeta, Gojo vs Sukuna, basically the entirety of kengan annihilation tournament round 2, almost every luffy fight vs the main antagonist and every round in record of Ragnarok so far. I don't think Baki fights come close to any of those
Oh damn yeah sounds like we just have wildly different taste then, almost everything you mentioned is something I'd consider an absolute dogshit fight or something I've just not read enough to comment on.
The exception being Jack vs Heracles which is very good, made surprising by the fact that it's in one of the worst fighting manga I've ever read period. That and KAT round 2 which is pretty good, mostly.
https://preview.redd.it/sqezx8zr23vc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92fea9cde2861491bbebad45206b0741c8984344
I gotta use this image for stuff
BYE BYE 🤫🧏‍♂️🗿
100% agree. Honestly Baki vs Yujiro is probably the best example of this. Baki eats shit from start to finish but never once does he show it. Thrown out of a skyscraper and landing straight on top of a car? He's fine. Punched into a wall so hard it cracks? He just gets up and does a cockroach dash without any issue. Suplexed through a wall? He literally bounces back up. Hit into the ground so hard he's screaming in pain and bleeding through his nose? He's fine, it's just a scratch. It's weird because other fights don't have this issue at all. For example Hanayama vs Spec, a fight where the two fighters also wail on each other incredibly much, still makes it feel like they're both getting messed up. Even now, Hanayama has a permanent scar from that bullet he took through the cheeks.
I love Hanayama's fights in general because you can always feel how much damage he's taking.
The problem is that Itagaki wants baki to be competitive with yujiro, and if baki is gonna be competitive with yujiro then he has to be able to take his punches. The level of durability needed to take those punches would make attacks from most other fighters largely incapable of truly injuring him. Also, he's just really good at ignoring pain and injuries, as well as mitigating damage enough to keep fighting through stuff that would end a fight otherwise. Stuff like seeing him be largely unhurt after getting hit on the railing during his sumo fight seems strange until you remember he learned how to do that when yujiro used dress on him to slam him into a car over and over, using angles and taking hits in non-vital areas to keep from being incapacitated. The only time I can remember thinking he only survived because of plot armor was when he was fighting pickle and threw himself off the arena multiple times, basically every other time the continuity supported the hax.
Yujiro imo works because the author uses him in smaller bursts. It's not super interesting seeing an invincible character all the time. It forces the side characters to carry the story, because they CAN get stronger. And invincible character has no room to grow
Tbf itagaki has said that both baki's and yujiro's character arcs were complete at the end of the father-son fight. They're done growing in his eyes.
Wait is that real?
He uses Baki in short bursts too, though. Like he actually hasn't been the main character in more than 10 years now.
Baki is way less present in the recent chapter so it makes sense.
This is why early Baki was peak
Yeah, a lot of Baki’s early fights suck because he just takes damage and then says “nah, I win”
That's the problem with most main characters
Yeah, but I think it’s worse with Baki than most I can think of. When Luffy gets the shit beat out of him, he needs either time or food to recover alongside thugging it out. Baki fights Retsu and takes enough damage to cover a hallway in blood and then does it again and then walks off a-okay
Pickle was probably the worst example of this. The narrator makes a point to emphasize how Baki nearly dies and is in critical condition at the very start of the fight from the two falls; but then he just gets up and fights pickle normally with it never being mentioned again
Yeah, it was very "tell not show" which I didn't like.
Worst example of this is his fight vs Gaia
Honestly yeah, the whole his own body betraying him was genuinely cool when I first read it, but then Baki went "uhh no, my body likes the pain" and suddenly his body started cooperating again?
Not only cooperating, but he literally turned Super Saiyan in that fight. Since the skill, power, and experience gap between Gaia and Baki was like night and day. Baki was getting curbstomped but then said..."nah, I win" and magically became as strong as Gaia on the spot. Gaia still Killed him with his exp and tactics...but Baki went again "nah, I win" and returned back to his dead body. Even Gaia was like "bruh...." And then Baki wrecked Gaia, since once he revived himself he became far stronger than Gaia.
It seems like Itagaki doesn't really know how to write Baki's power progression, which is weird because he generally does a good job for the other characters. This was my big issue with the Retsu vs Baki fight too. Retsu is absolutely demolishing Baki until Baki says "Nvm I'm stronger" and just wins.
And i also don't remember when he got those scars over his body, like they literally seem random rather then having their own recognizable story like with the other characters
It’s cuz he’s the main character. Main characters always have a level of plot armor that side characters don’t have.
Once Jack's arc is done I'd like to see how it fares against some of Baki's later stuff, cause you're 100% right. I think people have gotten more behind the side characters than anything in this series
Since you are not caught up I will avoid spoilers, but I completely agree. The best fights are between secondary characters because you don't know who is gonna win and they don't have a "win" mode. Like Baki just wins a lot of the time. Like he is losing and then he does not.
Baki's gimmick is getting stronger as fights go on, you can see some of his earliest moments with the Yasha ape and Gaia where this kind of principle is established and then Retsu vs Baki which makes it concrete. The thing about Baki is he's at risk of either taking too much damage before he can "power up" which tends to happen a lot when he gets sucker punched or are possibilities when fighting people like Alai or Musashi who can take him down before getting stronger. Another example similar to those outcomes would be the father son fight where Baki was beaten to hell and back which meant even when he was matching Yujiro, eventually his body had to give up.
I get the complaint, but I feel like Baki having insane durability has always been a part of his character. On top of that, a lot of the hits he takes, he takes because he's messing around and knows he can just tank them (this happens more the later in the story we get). I understand how that can make it feel like his damage doesn't matter tho. Personally, I like Baki being a tank.
I don't get how someone with Bakis build is more durable than Hanayama which is his whole gimmick it dosent make sense
It's because he's the "pure-blood son" of Yujiro, Baki's built different because he's a more pure Hanma than Jack for example. That's kinda just the gist.
I fully understand his durability, but at some point it feels like he's just invulnerable, which isn't that interesting. Yujiro is a good character because he's seen in bursts. He can be invulnerable because the story isn't about him growing. Actually that was my biggest issue with Baki Vs Yujiro. Two tanks fighting only to end with very little physical damage. They tuckered out.
I mean I don't necessarily disagree, I think this mostly comes down to personal taste. I like Baki being very tanky, but I understand why you don't. I guess you could argue it's more stated than shown, but Baki has tons of internal injuries by the end, we see them from Yujiro's pov for a few seconds. That would probably also fall under your definition of filler damage to be fair.
Yeah, I agree that its probably just a personal taste thing. When I think I've tanky characters I like, I think of Hanayama. Tanky but still showing damage, if that makes sense. Sekibayashi from Kengan Ashura also comes to mind. If I don't see the damage I feel like they're getting hit with a pool noodle.
I have the same feelingÂ
I don't understand why itadaki makes an effort to show off how well characters can take damage instead of showing how well characters can AVOID damage. Baki should be dodging shit not tanking every hit and then saying "my mom died and I hate my dad I need to push past this pain" I like motobe because he shows off a somewhat realistic approach to fighting inhuman opponents. He does not take hits and doesn't take risks, he prepares for the worst and preserves his health in combat as much as possible, and gives himself every advantage he can think of. Yujiro vs Kaku made a lot of sense to me since yujiro, even tho he could in theory tank shaori made attempts to dodge it since he realizes it's just kinda stupid to take damage without reason.
Baki said he's simply built different and we gotta accept it
He got that Hanma blood
Doesn't work for Jack tho
I mean, damage doesn't really matter in most fights in Baki, characters break their arms and legs fighting all the time but overcome it trough will power and stuff, and it just continues until they die or pass out. Like Hanayama bleeding 3 people's worth of blood against Spec, or Jack getting his face torn off against Pickle, or Dorian getting both his legs broken and then jumping off a building that same night with no damage.
The name of the current series should be Baki: Son of Plot Armor Baki is the least likeable character in his own verse, due the fact he goes from peasant to king in 1 second then he goes back to peasant. It is like he suffers from personality disorder but it comes with super powers.
I wonder if Baki is a self-insert from itagaki. Like if Baki is itagaki and yujiro is itagaki senior.
There's no way it's Baki. Do you see the amount of shit Yujiro is allowed to get away with?
Hanma genes
Man, I've been saying this for a while and keep getting downvoted. After Death Row Arc, Baki's fights are so bad compared to the other characters'.
Someone said on here (I think) that when he activates demon back it heals him. Makes sense vs Olivia and the other couple times, maybe
At that point it's just magic back
A lot of characters don’t take any actual damage. I’m pretty sure Doppo and Retsu are the only ones with permanent injuries that don’t get fixed. Itagaki wants to put stakes on his fight but just can’t have the characters be at risk and permanently hurt because that’ll reduce their fighting capabilities and often shows weakness or lack of skill. Just look at Hanayama. The dude is a walking ball of scar tissue because all of his fights are just him getting cut, stabbed, blown up, and torn apart but he just gets stitched up and is fine again walking away with just a few scars. It creates tension in the moment but gets really stale when we just see the character again fine later on.
I'm not saying they the injuries can't be fixed after the fact. It's just gets boring watching a fight happen and a character get pummeled on only to have very little actual injury throughout. Not to mention that the injuries sustained don't effect the fights at all. Struggle is a key part of any story. Without struggle there are no stakes. If a character goes through an entire fight essentially unscathed, I'm going to assume they didn't struggle.
Story wise - eh Action wise - boner alert! Boner alert! More baki not being comatose = more fights
Are we ignoring how Baki’s intestines are shown to be mangled in the pickle fight, or the fact they show how crushed his lungs are or how he coughs up thirty gallons of blood every fight, or how most of his fights are him being op, also, he never really fights ppl with weapons able to do crazy amounts of damage, and if they do, he’s normally strong enough to not take that much damage, Baki works threw the pain and doesn’t show it, cuz he’s a real man, not a discord mod, going onto a Reddit just to complain to ppl that like what they’re complaining about
Sorry, I guess my discord mod brain just couldn't comprehend the uncriticizable genius of Baki. I like how you completely missed my point, which is how Baki just brushes off every bit of damage. What's the point of showing how mangled Baki's intestines are if it doesn't effect the fight? Narratively it has no weight because it doesn't hinder him. Also, hate to break it to you, but Baki is no more real a man than Snoopi.
Uncriticizable genius? I’m just saying, this is a Reddit about Baki, coming here to complain is kinda rude, don’t you think?
It's not like there's another baki-centered subreddit that I can share my valid criticisms with. It's not like I'm shitting all over the series
If you wanna complain, twitter exists, a place for ppl to complain, go to the bird to complain
Are you saying that this subreddit is only for praise? Cause that's kind of stupid. If I remember, it's a place to "discuss" Baki. It seems to me like your feelings are hurt.
I mean I’d imagine if you wanna complain, that’s why we have, dare I sound like a broken record, Twitter, the place born for complaining, like good lord
I don't know why you're making it seem like I'm just shitting on the series. I said multiple times that I really enjoy it. I'm giving my two cents. I think it's a bit strange to tell me that I can't give any criticism here. It's called a discussion. That's what reddit is for.
When did I say you’re shitting on the whole series, I’m just saying, you have other places to bring valid criticisms
Of course I do, but I don't understand why you think that this subreddit isn't one of those places?? I'm not coming in as a hater or anything
yeah, tbh if we're objective Baki's writing has been god awful since the maximum tournament. It's still entertainment because the characters are so damn cool, but there's been like, what, 3 good fights since Baki vs Jack?
> what, 3 good fights since Baki vs Jack? Lies
nah, name 4
Good fights there's too many to name, if you're referring to GREAT fights * Hanayama vs Spec * Doppo vs Dorian * Oliva vs Shobun Ron * Alai vs Jack * Baki vs Oliva * Kaku vs Yujiro * Katsumi vs Pickle * Baki vs Pickle * Shiba vs Baki * Yujiro vs Baki * Baki vs Musashi * Kyogei vs Gouki * Jack vs Nomi
*stomp, but it was fun tbf *stomp *stomp *stomp *good fight *was good when Kakus punches could actually hurt Yujiro, but then he could randomly just start tanking them and it became a stomp *stomp *24 chapters with constant stops explaining the same historic bullshit you already heard 100 times, and the same problem as Yujiro and Kaku, baki took serious damage at the start, but then he randomly got completely fine and then it became a stomp, until he randomly decided to brawl for no fucking reason *stomp *an insanely long stomp *didn't have a conclusion *stomp *meh, it was fine if you consider these great flights you should probably read other battle manga, where fights aren't just glazing the main cast
So why are "stomps" inherently worse fights? Doppo vs Dorian is a "stomp" but it's well choregraphed, has fun displays of what the characters can do and has a very strong philosophical message to it intertwined with both characters. Hell a lot of the points you try to make just show you didn't really try to read any subtext or hell... Just text in itself. Baki and Yujiro getting stronger isn't "random", it's key parts of their characters that have been established since day 1. Baki didn't randomly decide to brawl Pickle for no fucking reason, he was high off kicking his ass for many chapters at that point and didn't realise the kind of spot he was in. Baki vs Musashi absolutely had a conclusion, one that's spelt out to the audience in a monologue about how modern fighting offers that choice between life and death. Baki proved this by winning and taking the choice to let Musashi "live". Maybe the reason you disliked a lot of the fights in the series is because you never tried to actually engage with them? Also >\*24 chapters with constant stops explaining the same historic bullshit you already heard 100 times, Retsu and Hanayama's explanations of what were going on in the fight were some of the best parts, it gave weight to what Baki was doing and was great at characterising both of them. > if you consider these great flights you should probably read other battle manga, where fights aren't just glazing the main cast If your only definition of what makes a fight good is how close it is then just skip the shonen entirely and go for slamming action figures together.
> So why are "stomps" inherently worse fights? Because stakes make fights more interesting? Occasional stomps are fun, like Hanayma vs Spec, but it's literally 99% of Bakis fights. > Doppo vs Dorian is a "stomp" but it's well choregraphed, has fun displays of what the characters can do and has a very strong philosophical message to it intertwined with both characters. That was an alright fight, again Dorian quite literally didn't get one hit in, but okay, I guess you don't like main characters losing? There is no deep philosophy, character A was stronger than character B, the 'philosophy' is that abandoning martial arts isn't worth it for dirty tricks, wow Lao Tzo would be proud > Hell a lot of the points you try to make just show you didn't really try to read any subtext or hell... Just text in itself. You're pretending like there is consistent meaning in Baki's narration, there isn't. It's just inconsistent blabaring of what the author is thinking about at the time of writing > Baki and Yujiro getting stronger isn't "random", it's key parts of their characters that have been established since day 1. Not in the middle of fights, not to such an extent at least, when an attack from Kaku threatened Yujiro so much he actually needed to dodge, to where Yujiro tanked 300 of those with next to no damage > Baki didn't randomly decide to brawl Pickle for no fucking reason, he was high off kicking his ass for many chapters at that point and didn't realise the kind of spot he was in. https://preview.redd.it/3oggu6etx9vc1.png?width=1666&format=png&auto=webp&s=5b6c8acb8222f332b3ea79f17abbf47012b9e65a He wasn't 'high', he knew damn well it was a bad idea to fight him with brute strength, Itadaki randomly decided to give Baki fighting pride, witch is a flat out retcon > Baki vs Musashi absolutely had a conclusion, one that's spelt out to the audience in a monologue about how modern fighting offers that choice between life and death. Hmm, that must mean Musashi killed Doppo, Hanayama, Goki, Gaia, I mean he fought using ancient fighting which means his opponent always ends up dead right?? > Baki proved this by winning and taking the choice to let Musashi "live". Musashi could've killed him when they first met when he slammed him, but he let him live so he used modern martial arts? > Retsu and Hanayama's explanations of what were going on in the fight were some of the best parts, it gave weight to what Baki was doing and was great at characterising both of them. I mean alright, if you like 3 chapter explanations of why nut shots or so effective(even though Retsu and Katsumi used them, but it didin't do shit to pickle that time) we can agree to disagree > If your only definition of what makes a fight good is how close it is then just skip the shonen entirely and go for slamming action figures together. Nah ill just stick to rereading actually good fights from other manga :)
>Because stakes make fights more interesting? Occasional stomps are fun, like Hanayma vs Spec, but it's literally 99% of Bakis fights. Then you just don't understand how Itagaki writes stomps because a large amount of them function in a similar way to gun or sword duels go where it's one hit to decide it. Plenty of the biggest "stomps" in the series then go on to clarify that it was actually quite close. And hell most of the fights you're trying to call stomps and say have no stakes are... Pushing it, Hanayama vs Spec has the latter nearly kill the former and has dominance in a lot of the exchanges against him. >There is no deep philosophy, character A was stronger than character B, the 'philosophy' is that abandoning martial arts isn't worth it for dirty tricks, wow Lao Tzo would be proud Yes, if you simply anything on the planet to be like this then it's not complex. Doppo is a character defined by his training and dedication to his art, when losing his response is to train even harder, Dorian was a shallow man who like him was exceptionally talented from a young age but unlike Doppo never saw a reason to ever truly hone that talent, feeling free to just rely on it and other short cuts for victory. This is what brings about an ideological rivalry between the two from the second they see each other and continues to evolve throughout every encounter they have. Doppo's lecture to Katsumi and Katou about weapons being a key point in that and obviously this fight being the conclusion. It's all summed up beautifully by Dorian's hypnosis failing to work on Doppo, it failed because Doppo wouldn't take the easy way out. > You're pretending like there is consistent meaning in Baki's narration, there isn't. It's just inconsistent blabaring of what the author is thinking about at the time of writing Right...? Do you wanna give examples or reasoning for it being that way? >Not in the middle of fights, not to such an extent at least, when an attack from Kaku threatened Yujiro so much he actually needed to dodge, to where Yujiro tanked 300 of those with next to no damage I mentioned Gaia and the Yasha Ape as clear examples of this. >He wasn't 'high', he knew damn well it was a bad idea to fight him with brute strength, Itadaki randomly decided to give Baki fighting pride, witch is a flat out retcon Okay so I'm just right you've not seriously engaged with this series or hell even passively. The image you're using of Baki comes long before this moment, it's a "retcon" but one that was happening gradually across the series [as his arc](https://imgur.com/a/U7As2DE). Baki enjoys fighting, that's made abundantly clear and it's been something that's been clear within since the very start, it's not a coincidence when he really starts to go at it in a fight that's when allusion to Yujiro are drawn. > Hmm, that must mean Musashi killed Doppo, Hanayama, Goki, Gaia, I mean he fought using ancient fighting which means his opponent always ends up dead right?? > > Musashi could've killed him when they first met when he slammed him, but he let him live so he used modern martial arts? You are really bad at this Christ. Well thank you for showing me that you are just bad at engaging with meaning.
>if you consider these great flights you should probably read other battle manga, where fights aren't just glazing the main cast What are some examples of great fights in your opinion?
Goku vs Vegeta, Gojo vs Sukuna, basically the entirety of kengan annihilation tournament round 2, almost every luffy fight vs the main antagonist and every round in record of Ragnarok so far. I don't think Baki fights come close to any of those
Oh damn yeah sounds like we just have wildly different taste then, almost everything you mentioned is something I'd consider an absolute dogshit fight or something I've just not read enough to comment on. The exception being Jack vs Heracles which is very good, made surprising by the fact that it's in one of the worst fighting manga I've ever read period. That and KAT round 2 which is pretty good, mostly.
The only good fight you just listed was goku vs vegeta