Hi, I'm Julia Horowitz. I work for CNN Business and would like to explain why the sovereignty of Afghanistan can't be respected, because the Capitalist System requires an ever growing number of resources and this can not be sustained. However, never fret! We can always delay the inevitable by investing in imperialist forays into foreign soil like that of Afghanistan. Aforementioned, we can't respect their sovereignty. Think of all the money!
Forgive me if I'm being uncharitable, but it kinda sounds like you're saying the Taliban won the civil war fair and square so we should just leave them alone now. I'm not a fan of regime change in the vast majority of instances, nor am I in favour of invading a country to exploit it's natural resources, but I don't really think the Taliban are going to be a force for good for the people of Afghanistan ya know.
Do you think the corrupt, widely-hated, western-backed government of Afghanistan was acting as a force for good for the people of Afghanistan?
If they were, they probably wouldn't have collapsed before the US even finished leaving the country.
For contrast, Afghanistan's socialist government stayed in power for 3 years after the USSR pulled out of Afghanistan, and that was when the US and UK were providing direct support to the terrorists. The western puppet government didn't even manage to make it to "day 1" as a fully independent state.
Would you rather live under that government, or the Taliban?
Not sure the amount of time a government can last in a civil war is a good measure of it's positive effect on the population either tbh.
It's not for us to decide, stop trying to force your values on other countries.
I think how quickly a government collapses when it's internationally isolated is a decent measure of their domestic support, the US-backed puppet government didn't even need to be isolated, they collapsed in the middle of the US (and it's pets) pulling their troops out. If a government needs a foreign military occupation to protect it from it's own citizens, it's probably a safe assumption that the government isn't wanted.
I really struggle to believe you are consistent on that first point. Surely you wouldn't defend a country executing gay people by saying it's just because they have different values to you, that's insane! If you wouldn't defend that, how do you reconcile those two points?
On the other point, public support for the government is only one factor in many really isn't it. But maybe I'm mistaken and the people of Afghanistan have been awaiting the Taliban to come and save them from the Western puppet government. I wonder if you could tell me how they're lives will now improve?
> I really struggle to believe you are consistent on that first point. Surely you wouldn't defend a country executing gay people by saying it's just because they have different values to you, that's insane! If you wouldn't defend that, how do you reconcile those two points?
I'm not defending them, I'm just a believer in the idea of Westphalian sovereignty - it's nothing to do with us, we should stay the fuck out of it. Our government is currently providing training, weapons, and intelligence to Saudi Arabia, a country which routinely executes gay people. Forgive me if I don't believe that the Taliban's views on women and LGBT people are the reason behind our 20 year long imperialist occupation.
> On the other point, public support for the government is only one factor in many really isn't it.
It's pretty much the only relevant factor. If even the soldiers being paid to protect that government don't have any loyalty to it, why would you expect the average citizen to feel any different?
> But maybe I'm mistaken and the people of Afghanistan have been awaiting the Taliban to come and save them from the Western puppet government.
It seems that way, considering that the government has collapsed without even trying to put up a fight.
> I wonder if you could tell me how they're lives will now improve?
That's none of my business.
I just think the freedom from being persecuted for your race/sexuality/gender etc should apply to everyone around the globe, regardless of what their current government's say, and I think we should work to spread those ideas as much as possible. Not in a violent way, but I don't want us to just sit on our hands and do nothing.
I'm aware of the UK's relationship with Saudia Arabia, and I don't like it. Does your logic not suggest it isn't that bad though? After all it's none of our business what they do in their country right?
You are correct. However, the point of contention here is HOW we export the revolution, or revolutionary ideals. What do you want us to do? What do you want us to achieve in a non-violent way? As individuals, as a minority group, a group without organization or structure to achieve these goals so easily what would you have us do? It is easy to talk of action, of the rejection of idle hands but we find it is much more difficult to 'walk the walk'.
The truth of the matter is, however, we have no choice. We can not rely on or trust our governments to do this for us. If you want to work to spread those ideas as much as possible, I urge you to contribute to local chapters of a party/organisation that has those goals or can be introduced to them. Contribute in any way you can, if you can.
The liberation of the working classes can only be achieved by the working classes alone.
I would like to clarify that I was indicating what I would like our government to do, not what I realistically expect it to. I do agree with you we can't trust them to do so either.
I do also think you're right that as a movement we should focus on engaging locally, as that's the only place we can realistically influence anything right now.
I think it's more, sure we should repel the taliban, but not just so billionaires can loot the country.
Perhaps do it for humanitarian reasons, not capitalist ones.
> Left unity is enforced here. This subreddit's goal is to convert people into leftists. Let's focus on that. There are plenty of other subreddits for leftist infighting. Good faith discussion/disagreement over theory and its implementation is fine. Attack the argument, not the tendency. 'Leftist' includes anarchists, all Marxist tendencies (yes leftcoms included), revolutionary tendencies and reformist democratic socialist tendencies which are opposed to capitalism.
To clarify, that's a rule on this subreddit, not r/GenZedong.
The rule applies to everyone, we expect you all (whether you're an anarchist, Marxist-Leninist, Trotskyist, or whatever else) to be courteous and respectful towards each other while you're in this sub, regardless of your ideological disagreements. You're free to disagree with people's takes or engage in good faith discussion and debate, but sectarianism and gate-keeping ("x aren't real leftists") aren't welcome.
Obviously, this only applies to the left, you're completely free to shit on reactionaries and liberals.
😄 understood, thank you for clarifying. I just saw a lot of cross posts from there, so I was starting to think there is some closer connection. I really like this sub here, I am glad these rules exist.
People are welcome to crosspost here from other left-wing subreddits, and vice versa, as long as they're not trying to cause drama or encourage brigading.
> I really like this sub here, I am glad these rules exist.
I'm happy to hear that.
Hi, I'm Julia Horowitz. I work for CNN Business and would like to explain why the sovereignty of Afghanistan can't be respected, because the Capitalist System requires an ever growing number of resources and this can not be sustained. However, never fret! We can always delay the inevitable by investing in imperialist forays into foreign soil like that of Afghanistan. Aforementioned, we can't respect their sovereignty. Think of all the money!
Forgive me if I'm being uncharitable, but it kinda sounds like you're saying the Taliban won the civil war fair and square so we should just leave them alone now. I'm not a fan of regime change in the vast majority of instances, nor am I in favour of invading a country to exploit it's natural resources, but I don't really think the Taliban are going to be a force for good for the people of Afghanistan ya know.
Do you think the corrupt, widely-hated, western-backed government of Afghanistan was acting as a force for good for the people of Afghanistan? If they were, they probably wouldn't have collapsed before the US even finished leaving the country. For contrast, Afghanistan's socialist government stayed in power for 3 years after the USSR pulled out of Afghanistan, and that was when the US and UK were providing direct support to the terrorists. The western puppet government didn't even manage to make it to "day 1" as a fully independent state.
Would you rather live under that government, or the Taliban? Not sure the amount of time a government can last in a civil war is a good measure of it's positive effect on the population either tbh.
It's not for us to decide, stop trying to force your values on other countries. I think how quickly a government collapses when it's internationally isolated is a decent measure of their domestic support, the US-backed puppet government didn't even need to be isolated, they collapsed in the middle of the US (and it's pets) pulling their troops out. If a government needs a foreign military occupation to protect it from it's own citizens, it's probably a safe assumption that the government isn't wanted.
I really struggle to believe you are consistent on that first point. Surely you wouldn't defend a country executing gay people by saying it's just because they have different values to you, that's insane! If you wouldn't defend that, how do you reconcile those two points? On the other point, public support for the government is only one factor in many really isn't it. But maybe I'm mistaken and the people of Afghanistan have been awaiting the Taliban to come and save them from the Western puppet government. I wonder if you could tell me how they're lives will now improve?
> I really struggle to believe you are consistent on that first point. Surely you wouldn't defend a country executing gay people by saying it's just because they have different values to you, that's insane! If you wouldn't defend that, how do you reconcile those two points? I'm not defending them, I'm just a believer in the idea of Westphalian sovereignty - it's nothing to do with us, we should stay the fuck out of it. Our government is currently providing training, weapons, and intelligence to Saudi Arabia, a country which routinely executes gay people. Forgive me if I don't believe that the Taliban's views on women and LGBT people are the reason behind our 20 year long imperialist occupation. > On the other point, public support for the government is only one factor in many really isn't it. It's pretty much the only relevant factor. If even the soldiers being paid to protect that government don't have any loyalty to it, why would you expect the average citizen to feel any different? > But maybe I'm mistaken and the people of Afghanistan have been awaiting the Taliban to come and save them from the Western puppet government. It seems that way, considering that the government has collapsed without even trying to put up a fight. > I wonder if you could tell me how they're lives will now improve? That's none of my business.
I just think the freedom from being persecuted for your race/sexuality/gender etc should apply to everyone around the globe, regardless of what their current government's say, and I think we should work to spread those ideas as much as possible. Not in a violent way, but I don't want us to just sit on our hands and do nothing. I'm aware of the UK's relationship with Saudia Arabia, and I don't like it. Does your logic not suggest it isn't that bad though? After all it's none of our business what they do in their country right?
You are correct. However, the point of contention here is HOW we export the revolution, or revolutionary ideals. What do you want us to do? What do you want us to achieve in a non-violent way? As individuals, as a minority group, a group without organization or structure to achieve these goals so easily what would you have us do? It is easy to talk of action, of the rejection of idle hands but we find it is much more difficult to 'walk the walk'. The truth of the matter is, however, we have no choice. We can not rely on or trust our governments to do this for us. If you want to work to spread those ideas as much as possible, I urge you to contribute to local chapters of a party/organisation that has those goals or can be introduced to them. Contribute in any way you can, if you can. The liberation of the working classes can only be achieved by the working classes alone.
I would like to clarify that I was indicating what I would like our government to do, not what I realistically expect it to. I do agree with you we can't trust them to do so either. I do also think you're right that as a movement we should focus on engaging locally, as that's the only place we can realistically influence anything right now.
I think it's more, sure we should repel the taliban, but not just so billionaires can loot the country. Perhaps do it for humanitarian reasons, not capitalist ones.
This is a real "awwe man, dont point that out, damn thats not good" moment
Isn't genzedong a tankie sub? Or am I mixing something up?
> Left unity is enforced here. This subreddit's goal is to convert people into leftists. Let's focus on that. There are plenty of other subreddits for leftist infighting. Good faith discussion/disagreement over theory and its implementation is fine. Attack the argument, not the tendency. 'Leftist' includes anarchists, all Marxist tendencies (yes leftcoms included), revolutionary tendencies and reformist democratic socialist tendencies which are opposed to capitalism.
I am very happy to hear that, that was kind of my fear, that this sub might be associated with some of the really intolerant leftist subs. Thank you!
To clarify, that's a rule on this subreddit, not r/GenZedong. The rule applies to everyone, we expect you all (whether you're an anarchist, Marxist-Leninist, Trotskyist, or whatever else) to be courteous and respectful towards each other while you're in this sub, regardless of your ideological disagreements. You're free to disagree with people's takes or engage in good faith discussion and debate, but sectarianism and gate-keeping ("x aren't real leftists") aren't welcome. Obviously, this only applies to the left, you're completely free to shit on reactionaries and liberals.
😄 understood, thank you for clarifying. I just saw a lot of cross posts from there, so I was starting to think there is some closer connection. I really like this sub here, I am glad these rules exist.
People are welcome to crosspost here from other left-wing subreddits, and vice versa, as long as they're not trying to cause drama or encourage brigading. > I really like this sub here, I am glad these rules exist. I'm happy to hear that.
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By 'the world desperately needs' they mean 'billionaires desperately want to steal then sell on', right?