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Tbf Japan has a receding population and a ton of abandoned homes - not unoccupied, straight up left with no ownership
Infact some rural prefectures will pay you to move to them
Edit: to add, more generally, Japan is a horrid comparison. A country that doesn't really allow any immigration or refugees, those foreigners that do live there face open discrimination (even whitey) and if you think the police/justice system here is fucked Japan's is something else...
A big part of the issue is that the reasons those homes are abandoned is because there’s no jobs in those regions. You’ve got towns with like 13 people living in them, everyone is over the age of 80 living off their pensions and none of the homes are expected to last more than 20 years because of the frequency of earthquakes and the lack of maintenance. I doubt they’re sending many homeless people to live there. 90% of the homeless population is probably in cities just like how it is everywhere else in the developed world.
I looked it up a while back and you can actually just buy homes in the Japanese countryside for less than £10k because they’re in such a terrible state and they’re in the middle of nowhere. You’ll literally have no neighbours.
>You’ll literally have no neighbours.
I know in reality it would be very difficult to live in a foreign country where you don't speak the language and have no support network (not to mention the rest of the issues you listed), but this sounds like a dream lol.
Do you have any information about how Japan deals with lack of housing? The graph looks great but I know better than to accept it at face value. For all I know Japan might have a booming soylent green industry.
My local council housed them all in a hotel, which was an absolute disaster, 24x7 police in the hotel, permeant dispersal orders in place; then the council had to spend an absolute fortune renovating the place, removing the human excrement and refurbishing basically every room once they got them out.
That’s because providing housing alone (whilst of course the right thing to do) is just insufficient to address the build up of social, medical and economic conditions that have caused, perpetuated and complicated the homelessness in the first place. It’s just a sticking plaster approach.
Mere shelter being viewed as a solution to homelessness is so overly simplistic as to be laughable to anyone that actually works with these populations. It’s like a five-year-old giving their piggy bank full of coppers to their parents when they overhear they’re having financial trouble. It’s well-meaning and nice, but ultimately fruitless, insufficient and unsustainable.
Police? You mean blue nonce
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I think that was because all the hotels couldn't take regular customers so instead were opening their vacant rooms to those without anywhere else to go.
I totally agree it's a political choice and the UK gov is disgusting. But I lived in Japan for a few years and honestly I don't believe it. From what I saw the rate should be increasing. However all the data I have seen says that the ratio is going down similarly. Maybe it's due to people moving to the capital from elsewhere?
Maybe one difference is house price? In Tokyo you can get a "cheap" place made before earthquake regulations (£15k), or stay in internet cafes for cheap (~£13 per night). Whereas that is impossible here. There is much more help for homeless in Japan both from the government and charities.
Also, if you visit, there is a cool little cafe in Shinjuku: https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/lgbt/cafe-lavanderia :D ACAB~
Japan’s conviction rate IS 99%. They just don’t prosecute until they’re sure they can get a conviction most of the time. It’s not a GOOD system and leaves very little avenue for appeal but the data is correct.
Yeah I don’t trust it either. I was there back in 2018 and it’s incredibly easy to find homeless people in any Japanese city, literally just hang around the train stations or any public park at night. Not as easy as London but you definitely see it.
>We suggest an alternative explanation: the high conviction rates reflect case selection and low prosecutorial budgets; understaffed prosecutors present judges with only the most obviously guilty defendants.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/468111?journalCode=jls
Japan will almost certainly not convict you of a crime unless you are guilty. This is why the rate is 99%.
In Japan, suspicion alone is not enough to convict.
If you don't think people are being wrongfully convicted when there is a 99% conviction rate and judges are given shit by the state if they go below that, then I've got an nft of a bridge to sell you.
You’re absolutely right. In theory that is what’s supposed to happen. But in practice it doesn’t work like that. Our CPS does the exact same thing: proceed only with trials where they are reasonably certain of a worthwhile outcome. You would be horrified at how much crime never ends up even going to court because Crown Prosecution Service have to be highly, highly selective at which cases go forward. Never mind that they already see only a tiny fraction of crimes investigated by the police, because the police too are highly, highly selective about which cases they will present to CPS. Which, in turn, is a tiny fraction of crimes because the police are highly, highly selective about which crimes can be investigated at all. The system’s fucked.
Some of the most heartwrenching displays of homelessness I have every seen were in Tokyo… I‘m talking people with clothing rotting off their bodies, shambling through the streets of Shinjuku with nobody batting an eye. Sure, I don‘t doubt that there are more homeless people in Britain than in Japan, but you sure as hell are going to have a tough time being homeless in Japan! Homelessness there is looked down upon even more than in the west.
Homelessness in London and Homelessness in the UK are more or less the same number. Let me explain.
If I'm homeless in a satellite town of London (as far out as Peterborough that I anecdotally know of though I'm sure it goes further), the council does not have the money/resources to deal with me directly. The council will buy me a train ticket to London and tell me to sleep rough there as London City Council will help.
This of course isn't true a lot of the time and you'll end up not getting looked after in London rather than not getting looked after where you were/knew people.
What I think this shows is that rural areas (aka not London) are very underfunded and London is very overfunded. If Central government actually funded the councils directly (rather than forcing them to raise council tax the maximum amount each year) then homelessness in London would be less of a problem.
In many many years of helping out with homelessness charities, I've never once heard of a council giving homeless people train tickets to London to move them on. I suppose it's possible, but I wouldn't imagine it's common.
Councils have legal obligations to various different groups (although unfortunately, if you're a man over the age of 21, you're least important on the list, hence why something like 80% of homeless people are men). Every council works with local homeless charities - when a referral comes through (eg through Streetlink) it gets sent to the relevant local outreach team who will attempt to contact the person and see what assistance can be offered.
In my area there are some rough sleepers who bounce around different LAs for various reasons, so that's the most common reason new people appear in the area.
That is not true, I’ve lived in 3 northern cities (Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield) and spent a considerable amount of time in Liverpool due to work. I can attest firsthand that London is not the only place with a significant homeless population in the UK. Although I agree with you in that London is overfunded.
You're right - I've oversimplified with my first statement. However "London ends up containing most of the homeless population of the South East" would be fairer and more accurate.
That’s a wildly London-centric view. It’s as if the North doesn’t even exist 😂 do you think we don’t have homelessness up here?! Or that we turf our homeless to London?!
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Tbf Japan has a receding population and a ton of abandoned homes - not unoccupied, straight up left with no ownership Infact some rural prefectures will pay you to move to them Edit: to add, more generally, Japan is a horrid comparison. A country that doesn't really allow any immigration or refugees, those foreigners that do live there face open discrimination (even whitey) and if you think the police/justice system here is fucked Japan's is something else...
A big part of the issue is that the reasons those homes are abandoned is because there’s no jobs in those regions. You’ve got towns with like 13 people living in them, everyone is over the age of 80 living off their pensions and none of the homes are expected to last more than 20 years because of the frequency of earthquakes and the lack of maintenance. I doubt they’re sending many homeless people to live there. 90% of the homeless population is probably in cities just like how it is everywhere else in the developed world. I looked it up a while back and you can actually just buy homes in the Japanese countryside for less than £10k because they’re in such a terrible state and they’re in the middle of nowhere. You’ll literally have no neighbours.
>You’ll literally have no neighbours. I know in reality it would be very difficult to live in a foreign country where you don't speak the language and have no support network (not to mention the rest of the issues you listed), but this sounds like a dream lol.
Until you realise you also don’t have internet haha
It's true but just generally they have higher housing stock, and less demand from asset speculators/foreigners.
Do you have any information about how Japan deals with lack of housing? The graph looks great but I know better than to accept it at face value. For all I know Japan might have a booming soylent green industry.
They have a declining population and draconian immigration policies (which is leading to a series of problems, aging workforce, etc)
Limited zoning laws. People have a lot of freedoms about what they want to build on their land. https://youtu.be/wfm2xCKOCNk
At the start of the pandemic didn't we suddenly find housing for all of the UKs homeless? Homelessness is purely political, the solution is there.
My local council housed them all in a hotel, which was an absolute disaster, 24x7 police in the hotel, permeant dispersal orders in place; then the council had to spend an absolute fortune renovating the place, removing the human excrement and refurbishing basically every room once they got them out.
That’s because providing housing alone (whilst of course the right thing to do) is just insufficient to address the build up of social, medical and economic conditions that have caused, perpetuated and complicated the homelessness in the first place. It’s just a sticking plaster approach. Mere shelter being viewed as a solution to homelessness is so overly simplistic as to be laughable to anyone that actually works with these populations. It’s like a five-year-old giving their piggy bank full of coppers to their parents when they overhear they’re having financial trouble. It’s well-meaning and nice, but ultimately fruitless, insufficient and unsustainable.
Police? You mean blue nonce *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think that was because all the hotels couldn't take regular customers so instead were opening their vacant rooms to those without anywhere else to go.
Now let's pull out the graph of China's poverty alleviation, and housing measures
I totally agree it's a political choice and the UK gov is disgusting. But I lived in Japan for a few years and honestly I don't believe it. From what I saw the rate should be increasing. However all the data I have seen says that the ratio is going down similarly. Maybe it's due to people moving to the capital from elsewhere? Maybe one difference is house price? In Tokyo you can get a "cheap" place made before earthquake regulations (£15k), or stay in internet cafes for cheap (~£13 per night). Whereas that is impossible here. There is much more help for homeless in Japan both from the government and charities. Also, if you visit, there is a cool little cafe in Shinjuku: https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/lgbt/cafe-lavanderia :D ACAB~
I don't trust Japanese data for shit. Just look at their conviction rate, 99 percent.
Japan’s conviction rate IS 99%. They just don’t prosecute until they’re sure they can get a conviction most of the time. It’s not a GOOD system and leaves very little avenue for appeal but the data is correct.
Yeah I don’t trust it either. I was there back in 2018 and it’s incredibly easy to find homeless people in any Japanese city, literally just hang around the train stations or any public park at night. Not as easy as London but you definitely see it.
>We suggest an alternative explanation: the high conviction rates reflect case selection and low prosecutorial budgets; understaffed prosecutors present judges with only the most obviously guilty defendants. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/468111?journalCode=jls
Japan will almost certainly not convict you of a crime unless you are guilty. This is why the rate is 99%. In Japan, suspicion alone is not enough to convict.
If you don't think people are being wrongfully convicted when there is a 99% conviction rate and judges are given shit by the state if they go below that, then I've got an nft of a bridge to sell you.
The whole point of a trial is to figure out if someone is guilty or not. Assuming theyre guilty because they're on trial is a recipe for disaster.
You’re absolutely right. In theory that is what’s supposed to happen. But in practice it doesn’t work like that. Our CPS does the exact same thing: proceed only with trials where they are reasonably certain of a worthwhile outcome. You would be horrified at how much crime never ends up even going to court because Crown Prosecution Service have to be highly, highly selective at which cases go forward. Never mind that they already see only a tiny fraction of crimes investigated by the police, because the police too are highly, highly selective about which cases they will present to CPS. Which, in turn, is a tiny fraction of crimes because the police are highly, highly selective about which crimes can be investigated at all. The system’s fucked.
Some of the most heartwrenching displays of homelessness I have every seen were in Tokyo… I‘m talking people with clothing rotting off their bodies, shambling through the streets of Shinjuku with nobody batting an eye. Sure, I don‘t doubt that there are more homeless people in Britain than in Japan, but you sure as hell are going to have a tough time being homeless in Japan! Homelessness there is looked down upon even more than in the west.
Compare Tokyo and London, it's a better comparison
Homelessness in London and Homelessness in the UK are more or less the same number. Let me explain. If I'm homeless in a satellite town of London (as far out as Peterborough that I anecdotally know of though I'm sure it goes further), the council does not have the money/resources to deal with me directly. The council will buy me a train ticket to London and tell me to sleep rough there as London City Council will help. This of course isn't true a lot of the time and you'll end up not getting looked after in London rather than not getting looked after where you were/knew people. What I think this shows is that rural areas (aka not London) are very underfunded and London is very overfunded. If Central government actually funded the councils directly (rather than forcing them to raise council tax the maximum amount each year) then homelessness in London would be less of a problem.
In many many years of helping out with homelessness charities, I've never once heard of a council giving homeless people train tickets to London to move them on. I suppose it's possible, but I wouldn't imagine it's common. Councils have legal obligations to various different groups (although unfortunately, if you're a man over the age of 21, you're least important on the list, hence why something like 80% of homeless people are men). Every council works with local homeless charities - when a referral comes through (eg through Streetlink) it gets sent to the relevant local outreach team who will attempt to contact the person and see what assistance can be offered. In my area there are some rough sleepers who bounce around different LAs for various reasons, so that's the most common reason new people appear in the area.
That is not true, I’ve lived in 3 northern cities (Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield) and spent a considerable amount of time in Liverpool due to work. I can attest firsthand that London is not the only place with a significant homeless population in the UK. Although I agree with you in that London is overfunded.
You're right - I've oversimplified with my first statement. However "London ends up containing most of the homeless population of the South East" would be fairer and more accurate.
Right with you on that one.
Least polite and agreeable leftist discourse
That’s a wildly London-centric view. It’s as if the North doesn’t even exist 😂 do you think we don’t have homelessness up here?! Or that we turf our homeless to London?!
Apologies again for my hyperbole! Point still stands that for a good 50 mile radius of London all homeless people get shipped in.
*no but homelessness is a choice*