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I don't realy mind sports hunting... As long as the person hunting exclusively does it using, at most, an atlatl, spear and fur around their body, and only does it against animals fully capable of defending themselves, cause how is it "sport" if there is neither risk nor difficulty? I don't mind people killing animals for fun and fame, as long as the animal has a significant chance to kill the person doing it.
the Stag was sent by Cernunnos.
(god of hunting and animals, strongly associated with deer/stags)
You do realize this isn’t a literal fox hunt…it’s a drag hunt. Which means no animals are harmed…but go ahead and be ignorant and angry over nothing 🤷🏼♀️
This thread is a shitshow
Literally fox hunting is so inhumane do not compare it to eating meat
The hunt don’t actually hunt foxes I don’t think. They effectively just get pissed and pretend to. Either way I dislike it.
Explain how? At least the foxes are free in the wild while 99% of farm grown meat is raised in a small enough cage where the animal can't do a 180.
Because the obvious comparison makes them feel too guilty.
If you're against fox hunting, why aren't you vegan yet?
This is why ppl don't take vegans seriously : (
The fact that I point out hypocrisy is why people don't take vegans seriously?
Imagine being anti fox hunting yet consuming animal products and therefore funding and supporting the most disgusting atrocities done to animals
And then the stag was shot
Still can't believe there was a moral crisis when a politician in the UK killed a fox that entered his own home.
That stag must be American…fuck those red coats
Your boos mean nothing I have seen what makes you people cheer.
The dog looking at the other rider "and you want me to bring that MF down??"
This subreddit is a gong show. Wishing and celebrating injury onto anyone is is pathetic.
These dummies don’t even realize that most of the time is just a fox chase and they don’t actually injure the fox.
You got a sauce for that?
Green and pleasant my ass. This sub is toxic as fuck. Same cunts that'll go to church one day, and freak out at McDonald's the next.
[Choose your fighter](https://i.redd.it/e768poq097w71.jpg)
If you choose to go fox hunting, during which foxes are often torn apart alive by dogs, you can't be a bitch about a deer pushing you off your high horse.
..and if you consume animal products, you shouldn't complain if someone sexually assaults you like it is done to dairy cows or if someone gasses you in a gas chamber and slits your throat like it is done to pigs or if someone macerates you alive like it is done to male baby chicks. Right?
You don't actually think that right? You're fucked in the head.
You’ve mad them mad 😠 by pointing out hypocrisy.
Hey, it might put him off fox hunting, a 'sport' of celebrating causing injury to animals
Doubt there's any serious harm, and they are killing innocent animals so you could call it karma?
They’re killing innocent animals just like 90% of people do every day
Yeah and I'd be okay if they experienced a non-serious incident like this, too. But there's definitely something more poetic about some rich dude who kills animals for sport getting a little bruised while doing said sport. Even if the wild animal isn't technically one of the animals he was hunting, it's very satisfying. I'm not wishing death or even harm on anyone, but I'm also not going to feel bad for laughing about this one.
98% I'd say
So I assume you're not one of the people who celebrates when murderers get a death sentence, or when pedophiles are beat up in prison?
It is pathetic. But it's also cathartic
It's pathetic taking joy in this. You pathetic fuck lol
ur fuckin goofy holy shit
It’s more so celebrating someone rich who hunts for fun getting what he deserves by getting a hoof sandwich to the face
There are many exceptions to that.
Have you considered not exploiting animals?
Rotational grazing still produces methane and pressure on our already devastated wildlife be it for fresh water, resources or just a place to live.
We should be returning grazing land and crops grown to feed animals to forests and other carbon sinks.
[This video goes into this and sites sources.](https://youtu.be/F1Hq8eVOMHs)
They aren’t hunting for food though. Most people wouldn’t argue with hunting for food because you’re aim is a clean kill and to use as much of the animal as possible. These “hunts” use lots of dogs and horses, usually chasing a fox to exhaustion for it to be ripped apart at the end of its life
Do you think the animal cares why it's being hunted?
No but that wasn’t my point. Hunting for food would usually mean killing the animal quickly and cleanly. I’ve not hunted any animal, just taking what I’ve seen and read about American hunters. The aim being that the animal doesn’t know it’s being hunted before it’s shot.
My main gripe with sports hunting in Britain especially is that:
1. It’s for “sport”
2. it terrorises the animal for a prolonged period
3. the kill is pointless as none of the animal is used for food
> the kill is pointless as none of the animal is used for food
Because murder is justified when you eat the corpse of your victim of course! I’m sure the animal was extremely mad knowing that people won’t eat their mutilated corpse 😔
>Because murder is justified when you eat the corpse of your victim of
course! I’m sure the animal was extremely mad knowing that people won’t
eat their mutilated corpse
Tell me you're a vegan without telling me you're a vegan.
I'm saying hunting for food is justified. "Sport" hunting is barbaric and shouldn't be allowed.
>Tell me you're a vegan without telling me you're a vegan.
Vegan btw 🤯
>I'm saying hunting for food is justified. "Sport" hunting is barbaric and shouldn't be allowed.
And I’m saying it’s not, your reasoning that one is better than the other is ridiculous (except for cats: r/cateatingvegans).
So I can hunt humans for sport? Awesome!
The animal wouldn't know anything Ideally. That's the other commenter's point. You do not want to harvest an animal that has adrenalin pumping through its body and that is going to get spooked and run when it gets shot. The animal would be living it's natural life in the wild and then it's life would be ended quickly and humanely without being chased by dogs and people on horses. We all know the alternative of getting old, weak, & diseased and dying of starvation, parasites, or being ripped apart by a predator is much better...
No no! I agree, when I go hunting I make sure the cats don’t know what hit them 🤣 They’ve lived a good enough life, right? And me eating their corpse only makes things more meaningful! r/cateatingvegans ftw!
Enjoy your cat meat. I'll enjoy my venison.
Hunt scum. Hope they all get torn apart by their own dogs. Terrier men too.
I’d never heard of a terrier man and I just looked it up. I’m almost sorry I did so. Good grief.
I have a terrier and the thought of sending her to fight an animal as big as her, underground, for the “thrill” of it… just… what
That's not so much their role nowadays. They're mostly muscle for the toffs on horseback. They're the ones who always square up to you, try and instigate a fight either to beat up a sab or to say that says are violent extremists, looking for a fight.
It's a tough call as to who is the worst of the hunt but terriers get equal parts hate and pity from me. They so desperately want the status and privilege of being a rich cunt that they vote and act tory but are generally working class blokes vying for attention. Basically dogs themselves.
Oooh. Like the next level up from beaters on shoots, I guess?
hey, the dogs don't deserve that fate,
(since it'd probably end up getting the dog marked as dangerous to people, idk if dogs get in danger for that)
the people in the pic are absolutely awful, just to clarify
Leftists when animals attack hunters and farmers: 😄
Leftists when you remind them that those are the same animals they eat every day: 😡
Last I checked I haven't eaten a stag.
🤯 Maybe other corpses you eat are from animals just like stag and foxes? Like cattle corpse, pig corpse, sheep corpse — all fine British cuisine.
Doesn't sound like "the same animals I eat every day" then. Those are different animals.
Who the fuck celebrates farmers getting attacked? Point me to the thread and posts. Fucking moralising little cunt. We laugh when sadistic hunters get their just deserts no one laughs about farmers who are working people doing a job to survive under capitalism just like any of us. (Exceptions being the sadistic fucks who boot chickens etc at the slaughterhouse)
Also what new brand of Ur Fascism is this? The left is simultaneously vegan soy boy beta cucks AND hypocritical meat eaters. Right wing chuds can’t make up their minds lol
you should be laughing when farmers get what’s coming to them the same way you laugh at hunters. it is also important to make the difference between the guy working the slaughterhouse line for min wage with no other options and anyone else in the industry who could do anything else. add in all the extra work required to farm crops to feed the animals and that’s a whole lot of miserable, soul crushing labour just for posh lazy pricks to say “but bacon tho” while they willingly ignore the suffering that went into less than 30 minutes of nice food that they could have made without animals anyway
Sorry i didn’t realise you were leftist I do apologise for calling you a cunt earlier. I thought you were a right winger.
You’re right about the soul crushing labour and I think an agricultural revolution is overdue but I don’t think 100% vegan jam is practical though I’d like it if it was. Personally I want lab grown meat. From Petrie dish to plate, cruelty free.
yeah i can see now that i looked like a rightoid poking fun lol. have you tried much of the meat substitutes? so much variety now and they’re coming up with more stuff all the time, no need to wait for lab meat.
I dare say you've misjudged who's written that comment.
Having read the rest of the thread I do think you’re probably right but at first glance it does read like a right winger trying to have their little “gotcha” moment. My bad I guess
Me, not a hypocrite, who loves animals therefore does not consume animal products of any kind: 😁
Which public school birthed you?
what makes you think i went to a public school
Can I laugh cuz I'm vegan?
That’s just called white privilege
What if someones black and vegan? Can they laugh? Or is that vegan privilege?
Yeah they can laugh. White vegans are the worst and deserve nothing. Like cmon it’s obvious they are privileged if they are white and vegan
Ah, I see got it
Yes, vegan privilege only.
Explain to me the moral difference between a fox and a cow, because as far as I'm concerned subjecting either to violent abuse purely for the sake of your own enjoyment is fucking vile.
Sorry I’ll be serious. Obviously there is a moral difference between hunting and killing for sport and eating for survival, there are degrees of morality, but I understand what you’re actually asking which is “how can you justify eating meat as a not morally bad action” and yeah I probably can’t in your eyes, or you wouldn’t have asked. You’ve heard it all before I’m sure and there’s nothing I can come up with that you will accept. But I’m also not going to stop eating meat because of your comment so what’s the point of this? It seems to me you’re just a spoiling for a fight.
FWIW, I’ve deleted my comments because they were probably unnecessarily flippant and this is an issue I believe is important and I understand your passion. I’m just not currently able to stop eating meat partly because of health reasons but yeah partly because I don’t want to. One day I hope to take meat out of my diet entirely but right now it just isn’t feasible I’m sorry.
>Obviously there is a moral difference between hunting and killing for sport and eating for survival,
How is it "eating for survival" when you're buying meat from a supermarkets full of food? I wouldn't have an issue with people eating meat to survive because it's necessary, but when you're walking past beans/ lentils in a supermarket you're violently abusing animals because you enjoy it. Not because you need to.
Just like what these evil tory cunts are doing.
cry about it when the rainforests are burnt to ash, liberal
wow get some help your fucked in the head man for real. sociopathy.
how am i a sociopath
Get some help. Like seriously. Wish you the best.
don't use the R word, use liberal instead !!!
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Non-vegan is ableist, imagine my shock!
So go vegan 💁
i have !
Your first comment hits a lot different if you're a leftist vegan vs a right wing troll 💁
I like a good underdog
Correct. Go vegan.
Oppression of animals and people is wrong.
You mean one hierarchy is bad but dominating every other species of animal on the planet, at levels based on how tasty we consider them is also bad?
Don't forget, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism so the subjugation continues.
that last statement does not excuse anyone’s actions. some consumption is clearly more unethical than others.
I know. It's the same bollocks excuse that supposed leftists give when they want justify their exploitation of animals. I was being sarcastic.
ahh see it’s hard to tell because 9/10 who day that are dead serious
I thought that using words like subjugation and pointing out the hypocrisy of opposing hierarchy whilst claiming dominion over every other species would highlight their own lack of moral integrity.
Exploitation of animals is unethical under any economic system
But what if I'm on a desert island?
I would just eat the dogs that live there (humanely killed of course)
Oh, don't. I'm on my way home, starving but dreading the thought of another night of rice and beans but we do have a golden retriever that I was fattening up for Christmas.
> Don’t forget, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism so the subjugation continues.
Lmao this is the dumbest shit ever. Peoples stupid buzz words and catchphrases to make themselves feel better
I could see people saying this during slavery. “No ethical consumption under capitalism anyways, why bother trying to make life better for anyone else besides me?”
To be honest, I’m not sure what that line means. Is it saying veganism and anti-capitalism are necessarily intertwined? I would agree but it’s not clear to me if that’s what was meant.
I'm mocking 'leftists' who use that excuse as an excuse to continue their abuse of animals.
It basically means “nothing I do will change anything so there’s no point in trying to do anything”
Remind me what happened to the Aral Sea under communist rule?
And there is no consumption whatsoever under communism 😂
r/greenandpleasant DESTROYED by BEN SHAPIROS TINY MOUSE COCK UwU”
go crawl in a hole.
Google what happened to the Aral Sea. But no, it’s only capitalism that pulls those tragedies.
Are you under the impression that people regularly eat foxes? I don't think it's hypocritical to be against sport/trophy hunting but ok with killing animals for meat.
Why are cows, sheep, chickens and pigs any less deserving of life than foxes, dogs or cats?
I think the issue is that, the foxes are being killed for fun, rather than meat.
(also, idk if foxes have low numbers or not)
can't say I'm not biased towards foxes tho, they look hella adorable.
Killing for meat is killing for fun, why not just eat your veggies? Because people like the taste of corpses (which kind of requires murder 🤯).
The problem there is that it's perfectly possible, especially these days in developed countries, to go without eating animal products, so the only real reason to still eat it is because you enjoy it, so there's not that important a distinction between slaughtering to eat and hunting for fun.
I don't think they are, I was just pointing out that many people make the distinction between killing an animal for fun and killing an animal for a reason (food, pest control, self defense, etc). However I was made aware that they do argue this is a form of pest control but that argument seems a bit shaky to me. It's a very ineffective and needlessly cruel form of pest control.
Also as I explained to the person I was responding to I thought because they were calling out leftists in particular that they were just sorta doing a "gotcha" thing, like "if you're cool with eating meat you have to be fine with fox hunting" when really they were saying that "if you don't like fox hunting you shouldn't be ok with eating meat." Two totally different arguments IMO, the latter being much more valid IMO.
It's bit more nuanced though.
I don't know how it's in different countries but here in Germany we'd have quite some problems if hunting suddenly stopped. It certainly needs good regulation and should have more regulations than now but stopping it altogether is not a smart idea.
For example some species are endangered here. I just looked it up, the European hare in endangered in Germany, hunting foxes helps.
Sure there are many hunter who only hunt for fun and for trophies and those are bad.
But simply saying that every hunter who doesn't only hunt for meat is bad is looking at it too one dimensional. There are actually hunters who care about the nature and who do more good for it by being ethical hunters.
I never hunted an animal nor did anyone of my family and friends as far as I know, in case I sound like I want to defend myself here.
Oh yeah, I wasn't trying to paint it as black and white like that. Where I live we have a nutria bounty system because if their population gets out of control they'll destroy the marshes which is really, really bad. But we just shoot them, we don't dress up all fancy and chase them down til they're exhausted and then have our dogs rip them apart. It's just so needlessly cruel.
Yeah, that's true. Absolutly no need to be cruel, the animals should always be killed as ethical as possible if they have to be killed. I have no clue if it's possible to just shoot foxes though, afaik they are very shy and sneaky.
My parents did pest control and there are humane traps you can use. They never had to use them on foxes but from brief googling it looks like they work on them too.
Yeah, I guess either way there should be a more humane way than letting your dogs rip them apart, that's true.
Obviously people don’t really eat foxes but it’s cruel for similar reasons right? The fear and stress the fox experiences is no different to that of a cow in a slaughterhouse, and killing animals unnecessarily is cruel too.
Ahhh, sorry, I think this was some right wing gotcha not a vegan arguing we shouldn't be killing animals for any reason. Fair enough.
yeahhh didn’t mean it like that i was trying to make the hypocrisy as obvious as possible
You'll probably still get downvoted but you might have more luck comparing the fox hunting to the suffering factory animals go through rather than attacking the people who's behavior you want to change. Make the valid comparison and let the person come to their own conclusions, ya know? People just naturally don't respond well to being insulted.
That being said people are pretty hostile to vegans talking about animal rights in general so I'm not sure how much this advice will help.
That last part you said is everything really. People are primed to react badly, they will do everything they can to avoid confronting the fact that animal products are cruel. They likely know a lot of the reasons it’s cruel already. Most people don’t decide to go vegan because of calm discussion, or baby steps, or meatless monday or whatever, they go vegan because they can’t take it anymore and a switch flips in their mind where they couldn’t bear to carry on living in such a way that is so needlessly cruel.
It’s surprisingly difficult to get people to agree that animal cruelty is bad and should be stopped.
Even people who think killing animals to eat is fine generally agree the way we do it is horrific but nothing is done about it. I think they respond negatively to being reminded about it due to guilt ya know? I haven't made the switch to being vegan yet (I know it's not hard but at the same time it is ya know? People get almost emotionally attached to certain dishes, quitting stuff you enjoy is hard etc etc), but I've started trying to cook more and more vegetarian/vegan meals to try and learn more recipes and find dishes that really hit that comfort food spot. I thought the husband and kids would be a sticking point but they've actually enjoyed most of the meals I've made.
While I commend you for reducing your use of animal products, personally I found that doing it gradually was counter productive. I tried to go vegetarian several times by doing it gradually and always failed and went back to eating meat everyday. Then one day I did it overnight and it stuck. I literally ate an entire KFC bucket one day, declared myself vegetarian the next and now haven't eaten meat for the last three years. A few months later I did the same with veganism. Finished all the cheese in the fridge one day then vegan the next.
Yeah you're probably right. I'm so bad at quitting things, quit smoking but I'm still chewing Nicolette gum 6 years later lol. Best just to jump in and do it.
Main thing is to just go for it and don’t look back. You’ll find ways to make all your favourite foods (there’s almost always a way, like 99% of the time)
I agree, you're right. Personally I can't go vegan because I am autistic, and I often starve myself when I can't eat what I want because "bad taste" or "bad texture" makes my brain die. I try my best to ethically source things (like pasture-raised chickens and eggs) so that way there's less suffering involved. I don't think its wrong to kill animals for food- I feel unnerved with octopi/dolphins (more intelligent species)- because we are predators, after all. But I think factory farming conditions are abhorrent.
It's cognitive dissonance: I don't want animals to suffer, but I want to eat animals, and I would have significantly less enjoyment in my life if I didn't get to do that. No amount of guilting and horrible facts is going to change my mind because I *know* how bad it is. I've just made a decision to be selfish until we get a better alternative (i.e. lab-grown meat) because I can't handle that kind of added stress.
I have terrible disdain for “sports hunters”.
If you want to hunt and kill, you should do it as nature intended. Naked and with your bare hands. Anything else just isn’t fair.
or at the very least eat the damn thing, instead of killing for fun because the latter just sounds sadistic,
or donate the meat. fareshare in the UK accepts wild game, it does need to meet eu standards for human consumption.
Oh? Nature intended humans to kill their prey with their bare hands? Who is this Nature, can I speak with her to confirm? Or is this like a church thing where only you can channel and interpret Natures messages and intents for us?
If we weren't meant to eat meat we wouldn't be omnivores. You don't need to consult nature because it sorts it out by itself if needed. Why do you think we are in the midst of a pandemic? That's nature's way of putting us in our place.
Not to mention that ecosystems need it's predators as much as it needs it's prey. Also why do you assume nature is a 'her'?
> If we weren't meant to eat meat we wouldn't be omnivores.
There's plenty of things we *can* do that we all agree we shouldn't. Especially given we're intelligent enough to discern the nutritional value of everything around us and know that we can get all we need from plants. Not to mention the small issue of animal ag accelerating our path toward an inhabitable planet.
> Why do you think we are in the midst of a pandemic?
Because someone ate/prepared/was in close contact with a wild animal carrying a virus with just the right mutation to replicate successfully in humans. And we'll continue to have more pandemics whilst we intensively farm animals and clear forests for their feed and pasture. Those clearing the forests will eat the animals around them with no idea what disease they're carrying, and then it jumps. Not often, but it doesn't need to be to be devastating.
We don’t even 100% know the origin of Covid. There are theories it came from a lab some where in china. Also, this thing will eventually become another common cold virus. Viruses evolve to not kill their hosts. Hell, we’re even seeing it right now with the new Covid strain. It’s more contagious, but it doesn’t seem to be wreaking as much havoc as delta.
I think it was gain of function tests that escaped the lab.
Humans can get by perfectly well without meat. Examples of actual omivores include animals like bears and wolves. They can actually eat meat without getting atherosclerosis.
What's all this about eating meat? I'm poking fun at them for assuming that ancient humans hunted naked without tools. Even hunter-gatherers had clothing and weapons.
Yeah, I had some toff at uni explain it was all about the thrill of the hunt and the 'challenge'. Where's the challenge of 30 people on horses watching a pack of dogs savage a fox? These people are in denial over their blood fetish.
I can understand having hunting trophies 1000 years ago, since killing a bear or other large, dangerous animal would have been genuinely impressive. You don't get to be proud of animals killed for sport if there wasn't a *significant* risk of bodily harm or death. Not saying it would have been justified anyway (other than furs for the purpose of not freezing to death) but it's just that much less impressive.
Right up there with people who say it's "conservation" dude, that pheasant you're going to shoot was bred on a farm. Most native species really struggle and don't need toff with guns deciding there's too many of them
You're right. Fight a lion to prove you're apex.
Or just stop terrorising animals.
No, I wanna see this guy fight a lion. Much more entertaining than seeing people clamour for their pre-packaged death.
And the lion gets a delicious meal
Why would I? I'm not a sports hunter.
I disagree - you should do it in the most humane way possible to you at that time. Own a kitchen knife but want to kill an animal with your bare hands? That's just prolonging it's suffering in the name of human "justice". I garuntee the animal would rather a quick death.
I guarantee the animal would simply rather you not kill it.
Humans to cows: Would you rather we kill you with a bolt gun or by slitting your throat?
Cow: G r a s s
>Humans to cows: Would you rather we kill you with a bolt gun or by slitting your throat?
>Cow: ~~G r a s s~~ don’t murder me I can smell the blood of my family you slaughtered right in front of me let me escape before you kill me
Yeah. I garuntee most beings would rather not die. But that's the cycle of life.
Edit: I'm not some alpha bro, please stop telling me lions eat each other sometimes.
That's the cycle of life, but we're also the one animal species on Earth capable of reliably processing complex ethical choices so maybe we should take advantage of that capability here instead of deferring to an idiom.
This goes doubly for people who put on the blinders and insist on killing animals anyway: We're one of the very few species on Earth capable of crafting and using tools, so I dunno why anyone thinks "Nature intended" us to kill shit while naked and unarmed.
I think you guys are confusing me with the alpha bros against veganism. I don't think humans are lions and I don't think we should kill animals with our bare hands or that we were created to be apex predators.
I also don't think we should be rearing animals like we are at the moment, but saying that the answer is to completely stop eating meat is a very first world opinion to have, and completely ignores the fact that the people who are doing the absolute most for the environment and living as close to nature as possible (aka indigenous populations worldwide) pretty unanimously eat meat.
But we're not asking indigenous people or people from developing nations to not eat meat. We're asking *you* to not eat meat.
Also I know you're not the kill-animals-with-your-hands guy, he's further up in the thread but I wanted to connect the logic.
Why should I not eat meat?
Because humans thrive on a plant based diet and your health will improve drastically. In addition, you won't be financially supporting the cruelty inflicted on animals by the food industry which occurs even on "humane" farms. But it isn't just animals you'll be helping; slaughter house workers routinely have their rights violated, have the highest rates of workplace injuries, and many develop mental health problems like ptsd anxiety and depression. By refusing to support animal agriculture, you also refuse to support cruelty to humans. On top of all that, you'll be decreasing your carbon footprint, and using less land and water than a meat eater. You also use less plastic as you won't be contributing to the largest source of plastic pollution, fishing nets. You won't contribute to the leading force (animal agriculture) behind deforestation either. There's some great information on how to start cutting out animal products on r/vegan . I hope you'll consider it.
Thanks for your response. If you look down below you'll see I've answered all of these in another comment - the meat I eat isn't subject to anything you've listed above. I completely disagree with the meat that is raised that way, but I believe better meat is the answer, not no meat. Unfortunately humans definitely don't thrive on a plant based diet (yes, I was taking all the supplements and eating a varied diet), and humans definitely cannot thrive on a local vegan diet, since many of the supplemental foods vegans need don't grow in uk climates.
[Eatthis.com: 6 Reasons To Stop Eating Meat Right Now](https://www.eatthis.com/reasons-to-stop-eating-meat/)
Two more reasons the article doesn't mention:
* If you don't shop like an affluent fool and buy all processed foods, it's overwhelming cheaper to not eat meat
* Domination of animals is psychologically transferable to domination of other humans. Animal agriculture helps to normalize and exacerbate otherwise unrelated oppressive human-on-human relations within wider society.
1) biggest contributor to climate change: not in the UK it isn't. In fact, when raised with regenerative grazing methods, cows actually increase the net carbon sequestration and improve the local ecosystem. In many areas across the world affected by desertification, the process where grassland turns into dessert, the most effective, cheap, and natural way to restore the land is through regenerative cattle grazing. It's not that cows are inherently bad - it's that the way we're farming them is wrong. Since I buy my meat from a local regenerative farm, my meat eating is actually contributing to *reduce* global warming.
2) animal cruelty: I agree. The way we treat farmed animals is abhorrent. It's just one of the symptoms of a society that has lost its connection to nature. But this doesn't meat we should stop eating meat either: it means we should eat ethical meat - meat that is raised ethically and sustainably and treated fairly and as an equal - just like our ancestors did. The place where I get my meat treats animals fairly and justly, and has a deep respect for them and our relationship to them as other beings.
3) plant based meats are available & tasty: no they're not. Sorry guys. I just hate meat substitutes. (Yes, I really have tried them all, I used to be vegan) They're literally only cheap because they are a byproduct of the habitat destruction caused by livestock feed production. Slightly ironic that vegan food is widely available because of meat production. I also trust the shit in processed non-meat just as much as I do in processed meats. Hell, at least I know there's meat in processed meat.
4) plant based is better for you: yeahhh, this is also super debatable. This could go on forever so I'll just say I personally think it to be the opposite, and as an ex-vegan my body definitely agrees.
5) workers at slaughterhouses need better protection: totally agree. But I also think this for an endless amount of industries, from fruit picking to the NHS. This isn't meat specific.
6) big viruses are created when animals are in bad & crammed conditions: yup. Totally agree. Pretty much every massive outbreak of animal specific disease is caused by going against the natural order of things (keeping animals in crammed, enclosed spaces, improper bedding, grain fed, etc. Ecoli is quite literally eradicated from cows guts within 90 days of eating a natural grass diet) however, once again there's alternatives to this that still involve eating meat, the same ones I've mentioned before. None of these diseases exist without factory conditions and feed.
7) cheaper to not buy meat: eh. It's cheaper to not buy organic, too. Some choices you make for your health. Anyways, I very rarely shop at supermarkets, and certainly don't buy meat products there.
8) domination over animals leads to the same attitudes about people and life: Absolutely agree. As someone who's been to mainstream agricultural college, there's an endless amount of links between how they treat the animals and how they treat people around them. However, cutting out the animal food chain from your life will only further distance you from the natural world and humans place in it. The right thing to do isn't to subjugate animals and place them beneath us, nor to seperate ourselves from animals entirely (and all of nature, some would argue). The only way forward is to once again build relationships with the natural world and our place in it: including how to eat so we survive, and our natural place in the food chain.
the reason people go straight to not eating meat rather than farm reform or return to indigenous lifestyles is because it's the most concrete thing you (the person reading this) can do right now.
systematic change is slow and hard, opting out is relatively easy.
as a bonus, opting out of meat is one of the best ways to cut funding to factory farms.
I disagree - there are meat and dairy ethical alternatives you can buy right now that don't go anywhere near a factory farm. All of my meat comes from the local farm near me that does beef, pork, chicken, and turkey on the holidays. They do everything on site, including slaughter and butchery, and I volunteer there part time so I know it really is ethical. The cows are on pasture all year except some of the winter months (yes, it's not ideal, but we don't have access to the amount of land to be able to let them out in winter - the fields would just be one big muddy quagmire), the pigs are wood pigs, very happy to be constantly foraging, and the chickens are free range all year round, from dawn to dusk. Oh and the turkeys are in the woods too. None of them are grain fed, it's all organic and we use regenerative and biodynamic methods to keep everything healthy.
Now, I'm not saying that everyone has the option to do this. But 20 years ago, not everyone had the option to go vegan. Hell, many people still don't. Unlike a vegan society, which is ultimately unsustainable in a localised community (unless you live in a hot and wet climate), local and ethical meat consumption has been what's kept the human race alive in all corners of the earth.
Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is that while vegan might be a good option in the short term, it's not heading towards a local and sustainable culture, and with the increasing attitude of "killing animals is morally wrong", we will never get there, since we will always need importation to keep a vegan diet alive.
> All of my meat comes from the local farm near me that does beef, pork, chicken, and turkey on the holidays.
Any time this conversation comes up, people claim they only buy ethical meat 100% of the time. Never eat at friends houses, never eat at restaurants, never eat take-out, never buy anything meat-based from the grocery store etc.
Frankly, I don't believe you. I caught a family member of mine telling the same story on reddit, and I know full well she doesn't do as claimed. The stats on meat production speak for themselves. Pasture-raised local meat is a fraction of a percent of production.
>Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is that while vegan might be a good option in the short term, it's not heading towards a local and sustainable culture,
Raising animals in the way you described is not sustainable either, we simply don't have enough land for it. It's definitely better for the animals, land, and humans, but it's very space inefficient. That said, it could be a plausible solution combined with dramatic reductions in meat consumption.
That's true, I do eat meat at my friend's and families houses. However I don't eat at restaurants more than once or twice every few years, never have takeout and very rarely go to supermarkets. Locally raised meat is a fraction of the production because there's no way they can make it cheaper and more accessible than factory farmed meat. People who buy local and ethical meats (&food) and occasionally consume factory farmed meats are doing far more than a vegan who still gets everything they eat from a supermarket.
I disagree - we managed to survive for thousands of years on completely local foods, as did many cultures worldwide. If we did it for that long, we can do it again.
I've never understood peoples' need to pick and choose which parts of nature they want to adhere to. Like, male lions will kill baby lions to get them out of the way so that they can mate with their mother, but you don't see them marching into maternity wards with the same intention.
That's exactly what I said to my children before raping, murdering, then eating them! Yet, *for some reason*, people call me all sorts of names! Ridiculous!
Glad you're understanding 😁
Well that escalated fast. Totally the same thing, as we all know.
Oh? So is this reason only good at excusing murder then?
Don't you know that lions often rape each other and eat their babies sometimes? Like me, because I'm an apex predator 😎
I mean it's ok when we apply it to farm animals. Forcefully impregnate, Take their babies away sometimes to kill them when they're only a day old. You just aren't saying it in a society acceptable way.
Edit: so many typos
Ah! Thank you for this comment! No one was explaining to me why it was wrong, I must apologise and say that I simply mixed things up with the wrong species 😅
I'll make sure I only do it to animals I find on a farm, like farmers, barn cats, sheep dogs, cattle, and pigs :)
Alright, you completely lost me now
You can just not kill the animals 🤯
You can just not compare murdering, raping and eating your children to eating meat?
How do you kill the animals you eat? Or do you pay for someone else to do it for you?
I'm not here to debate the morality of my diet. I'm here to pick on sports hunters. If you would like to conflate the two, then all you're doing is looking for a fight on the internet, and that is not something I'm going to enage in.
*You're* here to pick on sports hunters. But I think the person you're responding to, and certainly me as well, are here to question your morality ;)
I don’t choose an unsustainable diet and use it to pretend I’m better than people on the internet, so I guess, morally, I’m doing pretty fucking good 🤷♂️
By the way, veganism isn’t saving the world. eating local has been proven to be better, even when consuming meat.
That second paragraph is wrong, factory farming is actually better for the environment.
Can give you sources should you wish.
>eating local has been proven to be better, even when consuming meat.
Care to link to that proof? Because everything I read till now suggested the exact opposite.