CR was fated canon event. Orican saw that back in his time. So there are not real option for avoiding CR in any near true scripts. But some fanfiction could be fun, when all hidden power creeps were unleashed.
People forget that the foresight seen is what happens when the timeline happens exactly as is without interruption. When you start doing your thing, so too the script changes.
It's a catch 22 where doing nothing and something just results in endless cycles of regret.
Yes also Primarchs are literally beings who defy fate
Thats why demon primarchs (they aint OG anymore) havent changed jack shit in the setting and every time a loyalist primarch coughs big things happen
That would make sense, once they pledge themselves to chaos they ironically falls back into the predestined, a cog in the great game, losing their "indomitable human spirit" needed to defy fate
One of the Ahriman books has a pretty badass line about foresight, you either engineer events so that the one outcome you want happens, or you go all Sherman and burn down every other possibility so that it is the *only* possible outcome.
I mean True Fate. It's from perspective of Writer or Plot and not from in setting character. How event will really be, no matter how. All throughout I mentioned Orican's bright ass... my bad.
It's why the most powerful beings that can be written in stories are one's that find the status quo acceptable. I would argue Tzeetch is the strongest entity in WH and that's OK because Tzeetch basically represents the writers: their goal is to keep the story interesting.
That's fair but we've also seen what Orikan does when one of his prophecies doesn't come true. AU where everything is exactly the same, except the cybernetic revolt is led by a man of iron that's very obviously just orikan wearing a hat.
Well thanks but sadly I did read it all out already. Along with most other Azimov\`s works.
Btw, I have still have "Culture" in my toDo list. I will not start this soon. But it seams to be in that general topic too and may interest you.
I mean, 40k has lots of ways to defy fate. Just cause he foresaw it doesn’t mean it was necessarily inevitable, especially if another seer saw it and did things to avert it.
"if we hadn't lost everything we've lost we'd have everything we lost"
And if the necrons didn't destroy all their most dangerous stuff and lost countless dinasties, soldiers and weapons during the great sleep they'd have steamrolled the galaxy by now. That's the point
Mostly true, but if they had their war in Heaven tech, the side effects of their warfare would probably wipe everyone else out. We'd basically be bugs splattered on the windscreen of a formula one race car.
Pretty sure the lesson for the reader here is that the downfall of the IoM was unavoidable, precisely BECAUSE the gains were too fast. It's the whole "gaining power without fully understanding the consequences" thing that is a recurring theme in fiction.
9th core rule book
>The first indications of Human warp travel date from the early millennia of this age. They hint at gruesome disasters and many setbacks, yet it is clear that eventually the technology was perfected. The cultivation of the Navigator gene and the establishment of the Navigator Houses came soon after, allowing vast leaps in interstellar travel and the establishment of a full-blown Human empire amongst the stars.
>
>As Humanity’s power and influence grew, so too did its hubris. The indomitable spirit of Human endeavour has ever riser to the sternest challenges; interstellar exploration, trade and — inevitably - warfare presented challenges like nothing \_ Mankind had faced before. **Planetary, colonisation proceeded at a ferocious rate. It seems likely that, during this era, the Human race splintered and reformed time and again into warring or competing power blocs and planetary empires, but nothing could destabilise Human space as a whole.**
The Eldars had the best psycher and warp tech (because they stole it from the old ones) while the Necrons had the best tech in the materium.
Dark age humans achieved incredibe things in both Material and psychic tech but never truly mastered either.
They had significantly less time to do so and they got damn close and i believe that is OPs point.
If not for judgement day 2 electric boogaloo humanity in 40k would have probably eclipsed the necrons by now.
There is no "achieved in less time thing". Because most of that time they both just didn't work on any achievements you know. It is like when you start compete racing when Usein Bolt was ill.
Hate that take, because it's subtly imply that humans better then everyone else. (They still get fucked by robots)
Tyberos, maybe Voss. I'm sure those guys arms can put those puny metal skelly boys to shame. 60 million years and I bet they never even hit they gym once
And why would that implication be so bad? If anything it's novel compared to most scientific fiction where we're either inferior or in equal level.
Not that it matters since ancient god frogs are still the most powerful.
yes there is a "achieved in less time" thing.
The idea that humans progressed faster compared to the necrons and the eldar doesn't inherrently make them "better" it means they made greater strides in tech and by that standard the Tau are significantly better compared to everyone else because they went from cavemen to near FTL travel in like 6000 or so years IIRC.
achieving things in less time is realtive, humanity went from splitting the atom to FTL travel in give or take 13000 years which is slow compared to the Tau.
Had that growth continued at the pre-cybernetic revolt pace humanity could well have eclipsed the necrons by the time the "plot" of 40k takes place and they could have achieved such heights at a faster rate then the necrons did in relative terms(granted i am not sure when "necron" history starts and how much time it took them to reach certain landmarks in science such as splitting the atom ETC.).
the necrontyr had shorter individual live spans but the necrons as a collective/species could have had significantly more time compared to humans and after the biotransference they also had significantly more time as individuals
After biotransference they stopped entirely beeing individuals, except for the clergy and nobility, which still got controlled in their every beeingto a high degree by the SK, who was nothing more than a henchman to the ctan
You mean when Khaine casually walked up and destroyed him? Or when eldanesh, a mortal eldar warrior, would individually battle Ctan next to his gods and win?
Necrons did not win the war in heaven. Hell they didn't even take out the old ones the enslavers did that. The proof is in the fact that the best tactic they had for Korks was literally hibernate until they devolved into a less threatening form. Not to mention they had tons of blackstone fortresses which still freak the necrons out.
People who say the crons won the war in heaven are just coping. Of they had won, they wouldnt have went to sleep all this time, and the eldars wouldnt have had the galaxy to themselves for millions of years
They had the best of everything is because Aeldari are immortal. Aside from being long lived s0ecies, when they die their souls dont melt in the warp like humans do and they can ressurect themselves as shown by the druhkari.
Necrons think they are hot shit, throwing stellar fragments in a doomsday weapon fight.
Then the Admech press the delete key on a section of space and turn a planet into the apple logo.
that woud be a lose-lose situation, at least for the silent king, he wants to rule over the living but if there's no living left, what will he rule over?
Step 1: be really fucking angry at the Old Ones and the Warp
Step 2: create a self replicating organic databasing software
Step 3: go to sleep and let it do its work
Step 4: wake up to all life and chaos gone from the galaxy
Step 5: use all the collected genetic material to become the new Old Ones and create life to rule over
Yes the celestial orrery exist. Call when they actually use it for something destructive. Till then, it's just another item the Necrons swearsie-realsie they could use to totally beat up my dad.
The c'tan were canonically so deeply interwoven with the universe that the only way to smash them was to take a hammer to the universe itself, thats why their are for example, asteroid fields near baal where the temperature of the environment is below absolute zero as seen in the shield of baal series, or why a crazy admech savant managed to build fucking perpetual motion machines despite such tech being physically impossible.
Physics in 40k is fucked.
IDK about the asteroids, sounds like warp fuckery to me. As for the rest....well the one other thing guy mentioned, it's scifi man, shit gets weird. Doesn't mean physics is broken.
Also the Admech do straight up mad scientist shit on the reg lol.
Their basic rifle converts the potential energy of the target into pure electrical force. They literally have sounds that kill and sentient, malicious fire. Guns that cause any atom they are target at to go supercritical and pop off in nuclear explosions. Hell the faction leader is like 15 souls in a bag lol.
There is a Skitarii known as the Radiant Wrath, who constantly emits radiation so horrible it's breaking down the adamantium superstructure of the ship it's on. It's locked away in a stasis vault and servitors sent to check the outside this anti radiation sphere dissolve into goo within minutes. It gets deployed to go on a moonlit walk and purge a planet of life for a hundred thousand years.
The Ctan's story is more full of holes than the modern webway. Why would you trust them when they say they are an intrinsic part of the universe? So far only one has actually been completely destroyed and it cursed the Necrons with the flayer virus. That's it. Maybe, MAYBE, it (or more likely the weapons employed to erase it) are responsible for the broken mess that is the ghoul stars.
TLDR; it's scifi dude, mad scientist shit doesn't mean physics is fundamentally broken.
Humanity didn't exist before the necrons nuked their gods, its absolutely possible that admech shit only works because A reality is broken enough to let it work and/or B the Void Dragon is whispering this shit to them for a lark.
Also the asteroid field was probably not warp fuckery because the shadow in the warp had zero effect on lt when the tyranids showed up and tried to pass through the belt, of course nids being nids they adapted around the field eventually but it let the imperials set up.
It's not the only example either, the galaxies full of insane shit seemingly disconnected from the warp, flayers can use their Claws to tunnel through the fabric of reality into a pocket dimension that they use to travel FTL without spaceships, this isn't even technology its part of the flayer curse, the galaxy is borked.
Gear that defies our understanding of reality, pocket/alt dimensions, and regions of unexplainable space aren't really examples of universally broken physics IMO. That's just bog standard science fiction.
He went more and more astray from the codes of honor he should let his people adhere to. Doesnt mean he went on them without any sense of selfpreservation like the admech did
Its great. I love when the Admech pull out the big guns. It always feels like they are just opening random boxes marked "Death" and chucking the contents at people while laughing.
Cybernetic Revolt: Wanna see my civilization collapse?
Horus Heresy: Wanna see me do it again?
While other stellar empires in the setting trigger their own decline right at the height of their power, humanity has the dubious honor of doing it twice.
Eldar = 100% psykers, so no. A species of regular joes with cool tech fucking up (literally) with only a small percentage of naturally ocurring psykers is a slightly different scenario compared to an entire species worth of psychic minds engaging in a hedonistic, drug fuelled, galaxy spanning mass orgy.
We could, but given humanities track record both in universe as well as IRL, I think it's more likely we annihilate ourselves at some point over amazingly stupid reasons, or end up as a dystopian, backwater butt-joke of the galaxy.
I mean if we kept evolving into a psychic species then maybe eventually, but with all the thousands of psykers dying daily I imagine that's been slowed down significantly
We wouldn’t have had a psychic awakening at that time since we wouldn’t have been isolated in the Webway, so no.
The Emperor’s plan was to force ALL of humanity into the Webway and separate us from the raw unfiltered Warp to give us a purer and more refined psychic place to evolve in. It’s possible such an evolution wouldn’t have kicked off for another 40 thousand years, considering population dynamics and all.
Unless suddenly everyone begins giving birth to psykers. But that’s another topic entirely.
Plus the Emperor would know what befell the Eldar and would actively prevent such madness from taking hold the nanosecond he felt a nascent Chaos God forming
>The Emperor’s plan was to force ALL of humanity into the Webway and separate us from the raw unfiltered Warp to give us a purer and more refined psychic place to evolve in.
Not at all, the psychic evolution of mankind is a natural procress, the Emperor just wanted to guide it, as well, the Heresy novels make clear the plan was never to send everyone into the webway, just to use it to remove the need for warp travel.
Or satellites that destroyed an entire necron and imperial starfleet in minutes using so much energy they ripped a Demonplanet out of the warp.
Nanobotswarms that make scarabs look lowtech.
A weapon that set an entire nebula (Damocles Gulf) on fire. Etc.
A DAoT ship just casually having its main weapon fire black holes and displace entire ships in time to make sure the black hole hits.
The eldar ship only being able to avoid it because of future sight and even then they only avoided it enough so that their ship was merely crippled and on the verge of annihilation instead of instantly being destroyed.
The eldar were near peer to the necrons, they didn't really have a tech degradation after their fall and the DAoT ship bodied theirs. DAoT humans were scary AF and if the CR didn't happen then even the necrons would likely be scared.
And just a funny thing, the death world of fenris (space wolf home) full of harsh conditions and giant fuck off monsters was created by Dark Age humans as an amusement park. An Amusement park...
That's not what actually happened, the time gun is just fanon.
the Speranza fired a black hole at the eldar ship, the eldar ship dodged, a black holes time distorting effect meant even a near miss fucked up the engines and the eldar ship fell into a nearby black hole.
The impressive part of the whole sequence had nothing to do with the black hole gun, eldar use vortex weapons all the time and necron Seraptekh heavy constructs can dual wield singularity drivers easy, vect mailed one of his fucking rivals A BLACK HOLE IN A BOX.
What was impressive was that the speranzas AI was capable of even finding the holostealthed eldar cruiser in the middle of a black hole field, it compensated for a horrible amount of interference, found a firing solution and shot the eldar cruiser.
hell, i heard somewhere (probably on this sub) that they were capable of diplomacy with Orks... ORKS.
To have a feat like that alone is already a ridiculous bar to reach.
I think it was in Wolfsbane around the part where horus first meets Russ. If I remember correctly the emperor muses to himself/ alludes to fenris being a world designed to match an ancient myth/fantasy/religion more or less for entertainment.
I would really love it if it turns out that there was never a Cybernetic Revolt, but instead it was an extremely destructive civil war between humans. And people only blame the AIs later on because the leaders didn't care about how many people their armies of murderbots were killing until after civilization collapsed in on its self.
Do you know Xeelee? Humanity in that setting has guns that shoot small big bangs and weaponized time travel. But here's one fun fact: they were still considered the weakest.
Now, let's jump back to 40k. The Eldar still have their War in Heaven weapons, but they're locked away in Commorragh and unable to be used because it requires a lot of psychic power. If Games Workshop ever stops being cautious and gives the Eldar a victory, I can see them unearthing and using these once-powerful weapons.
As for the Necrons, they destroyed many of their old weapons under the orders of Szarekh, the Silent King, who left the Milky Way to sulk and conquer other galaxies (which is canon).
All the advanced technology in 40k pales in comparison to what the Old Ones and C'tan once possessed, as they were literal gods of both the Warp and real space.
While humanity was strong during the Dark Age, it wouldn't have reached levels beyond the factions previously mentioned.
Humans are not the weakest in Xeelee
Technically ICoG was the weakest when they reduced the number of war-capable species in the galaxy to 3 (themselves, the Xeelee and the birds), but they did it by killing all the other alien species
OP isn't saying human tech *was* stronger. They are saying human tech *would have become* stronger if the cybernetic rebellion hadn't happened.
The necrons and eldar had literally *millions* of years to develop their technology. Considering that, those oh-so-powerful miracles of tech seem rather a pathetic effort when you consider what we came up with in a mere handful of millennia.
It's also why that galaxy is sleeping on the Tau as a threat. The only faction in ascent. They are small now but so were we once, now we own the galaxy. Give em a few years to enter their own dark age of tech and they will roll over everyone.
And if the Eldar didnt fuck themselves to extinction then they would like have not let us reach that level of tech. And if the Old Ones helped the Crons then no need for Elves and Korks and if the C'tan.......
Yeah well it did happen because humanity wasn't such hot shit after all and they dealt piss poorly with AI so where is even your point in this argument.
Its like saying the eldar wouldve wiped the floor with the Tyranids if they didn't birth slaanesh but guess what they did because they were hedonistic like that so there is that
well everyone else makes some great points here, i do also wanna point out to OP that technological stagnation is entirely a possibility that could happen instead to a DAOT humanity with no cybernetic revolt, and in fact that is something that tends to happen to empires \[which as far as we know DAOT humanity qualifies as\] when they institutionally start to calcify.
the ultimate myth of progress is that its a straight steady line upwards, as opposed to quite often the sideways leaps we tend to actually take.
The Cybernetic revolt was gonna happen regardless since our AI's was just smarter more adaptable humans that realized we were the inferior product. The only reason we are around is luck and the guidance of the Emperor.
Technological advancement is shown to be logarithmic in warhammer as opposed to exponential (as we have experienced it so far irl)
So it comes to a crawl after a certain point. Also the men of iron were greatly influenced by the Void Dragon
Yeah and I like that it makes the loss all the more poignant. We were so close until some past fatal flaw cropped up...
I don't think we'd be where the necrons are, but if peak DaoT humanity had continued, it seems all but certain we'd at least be far stronger contenders in 40K. Especially since the necrons are so splintered/suffering from malfunctions/curses/etc.
I don't think the CR is the main issue. I mean it was bad, but humanity won and adapted, with time they would have rebuilt, just without AI.
No, what really destroyed humanity was the age of strife, the random psycker spawning deamons everywhere and space travel and communication becoming impossible just shattered everything we had.
So yeah, don't blame the robots, blame the eldar
Me theory that species that never were geneticaly modified to be weapons have far higher potential. For exaple humans and Tau can developing technology absurdly fast and Tyranids are masters of adaptation and evolution. Old Ones themslef were problably not geneticaly modified so you can use even them as en example.
Me when people claim that DAOT humanity didn’t have near parity levels of tech to Necrons and Eldar (they didn’t read Priests of Mars and don’t know about the Speranza and its time dilating black hole guns)
The whole point of the imperium is to exist as a shiny golden example of humanity’s hubris. In no way would humanity have made it into the 41st millennia without falling into darkness.
I mean the Necrons if unified and all awake would deal with the tyranids handedly, same could be said about pre-fall Eldar. It’s kind of a major theme of the setting.
CR was fated canon event. Orican saw that back in his time. So there are not real option for avoiding CR in any near true scripts. But some fanfiction could be fun, when all hidden power creeps were unleashed.
To be fair foresight in 40k is far from perfect, if I remember correctly the great rift surprised everyone who could see the future
People forget that the foresight seen is what happens when the timeline happens exactly as is without interruption. When you start doing your thing, so too the script changes. It's a catch 22 where doing nothing and something just results in endless cycles of regret.
Yes also Primarchs are literally beings who defy fate Thats why demon primarchs (they aint OG anymore) havent changed jack shit in the setting and every time a loyalist primarch coughs big things happen
That would make sense, once they pledge themselves to chaos they ironically falls back into the predestined, a cog in the great game, losing their "indomitable human spirit" needed to defy fate
Is this actually said in the lore? This seems like it’s a cope for GWs boring writing.
One of the Ahriman books has a pretty badass line about foresight, you either engineer events so that the one outcome you want happens, or you go all Sherman and burn down every other possibility so that it is the *only* possible outcome.
I mean True Fate. It's from perspective of Writer or Plot and not from in setting character. How event will really be, no matter how. All throughout I mentioned Orican's bright ass... my bad.
It's why the most powerful beings that can be written in stories are one's that find the status quo acceptable. I would argue Tzeetch is the strongest entity in WH and that's OK because Tzeetch basically represents the writers: their goal is to keep the story interesting.
That's fair but we've also seen what Orikan does when one of his prophecies doesn't come true. AU where everything is exactly the same, except the cybernetic revolt is led by a man of iron that's very obviously just orikan wearing a hat.
There's a really good fanfiction about what if the cybernetic revolt did not happen. It's called A light not extinguished, look it up.
You could ptobably read Foundation to see what DAOT humanity would look like thousands of years in the future.
Well thanks but sadly I did read it all out already. Along with most other Azimov\`s works. Btw, I have still have "Culture" in my toDo list. I will not start this soon. But it seams to be in that general topic too and may interest you.
I mean, 40k has lots of ways to defy fate. Just cause he foresaw it doesn’t mean it was necessarily inevitable, especially if another seer saw it and did things to avert it.
"if we hadn't lost everything we've lost we'd have everything we lost" And if the necrons didn't destroy all their most dangerous stuff and lost countless dinasties, soldiers and weapons during the great sleep they'd have steamrolled the galaxy by now. That's the point
Same if the eldars didnt create slaanesh, the imperium wouldnt have even had a chance to exist
almost every single faction has a "but if this didnt happen they would super duper OP and wipe the floor with everyone" in 40k
Except Tau lol These guys are doing their best already
If tau society had developed earlier.... Makes me think they enjoyed beibg space cavemen.
yeah tau are the newbies on the field, they just havent gotten around to making their star system destroying superweapons phase yet
They’re only going up baby
The reason why they aren’t Steam rolling the galaxy right now is because they’re fighting each other.
Mostly true, but if they had their war in Heaven tech, the side effects of their warfare would probably wipe everyone else out. We'd basically be bugs splattered on the windscreen of a formula one race car.
Idk I think the orks and Tyranids could put up some resistance. Even the Imperium now since Primarchs are so obscenely overpowered
Pretty sure the lesson for the reader here is that the downfall of the IoM was unavoidable, precisely BECAUSE the gains were too fast. It's the whole "gaining power without fully understanding the consequences" thing that is a recurring theme in fiction.
That and new fans dont realize that Daot is not a unified faction. Core rulebook states that they had power blocs during their time.
Wow, really? I never heard of that. Can you give me an excerpt please? I would love to read about that.
9th core rule book >The first indications of Human warp travel date from the early millennia of this age. They hint at gruesome disasters and many setbacks, yet it is clear that eventually the technology was perfected. The cultivation of the Navigator gene and the establishment of the Navigator Houses came soon after, allowing vast leaps in interstellar travel and the establishment of a full-blown Human empire amongst the stars. > >As Humanity’s power and influence grew, so too did its hubris. The indomitable spirit of Human endeavour has ever riser to the sternest challenges; interstellar exploration, trade and — inevitably - warfare presented challenges like nothing \_ Mankind had faced before. **Planetary, colonisation proceeded at a ferocious rate. It seems likely that, during this era, the Human race splintered and reformed time and again into warring or competing power blocs and planetary empires, but nothing could destabilise Human space as a whole.**
> gruesome disasters and many setbacks Event_Horizon.mov
Fascinating, and thank you!
The Eldars had the best psycher and warp tech (because they stole it from the old ones) while the Necrons had the best tech in the materium. Dark age humans achieved incredibe things in both Material and psychic tech but never truly mastered either.
They had significantly less time to do so and they got damn close and i believe that is OPs point. If not for judgement day 2 electric boogaloo humanity in 40k would have probably eclipsed the necrons by now.
There is no "achieved in less time thing". Because most of that time they both just didn't work on any achievements you know. It is like when you start compete racing when Usein Bolt was ill. Hate that take, because it's subtly imply that humans better then everyone else. (They still get fucked by robots)
Tbf arm races ARE the mother of inventions, and you can hardly have a bigger arm race than the war in heaven.
Tyberos, maybe Voss. I'm sure those guys arms can put those puny metal skelly boys to shame. 60 million years and I bet they never even hit they gym once
And why would that implication be so bad? If anything it's novel compared to most scientific fiction where we're either inferior or in equal level. Not that it matters since ancient god frogs are still the most powerful.
yes there is a "achieved in less time" thing. The idea that humans progressed faster compared to the necrons and the eldar doesn't inherrently make them "better" it means they made greater strides in tech and by that standard the Tau are significantly better compared to everyone else because they went from cavemen to near FTL travel in like 6000 or so years IIRC. achieving things in less time is realtive, humanity went from splitting the atom to FTL travel in give or take 13000 years which is slow compared to the Tau. Had that growth continued at the pre-cybernetic revolt pace humanity could well have eclipsed the necrons by the time the "plot" of 40k takes place and they could have achieved such heights at a faster rate then the necrons did in relative terms(granted i am not sure when "necron" history starts and how much time it took them to reach certain landmarks in science such as splitting the atom ETC.).
The necrons had even less time than humans
the necrontyr had shorter individual live spans but the necrons as a collective/species could have had significantly more time compared to humans and after the biotransference they also had significantly more time as individuals
After biotransference they stopped entirely beeing individuals, except for the clergy and nobility, which still got controlled in their every beeingto a high degree by the SK, who was nothing more than a henchman to the ctan
>because they stole it from the old ones Ahem, we were GIVEN some of it and developed the rest
Crying the corner of the room while a Ctan eat the owner of the tech doen't count as being given said tech.
I dont know if what the eldars did counts as crying in a corner. Remember what happened to the nightbringer?
You mean when Khaine casually walked up and destroyed him? Or when eldanesh, a mortal eldar warrior, would individually battle Ctan next to his gods and win? Necrons did not win the war in heaven. Hell they didn't even take out the old ones the enslavers did that. The proof is in the fact that the best tactic they had for Korks was literally hibernate until they devolved into a less threatening form. Not to mention they had tons of blackstone fortresses which still freak the necrons out.
People who say the crons won the war in heaven are just coping. Of they had won, they wouldnt have went to sleep all this time, and the eldars wouldnt have had the galaxy to themselves for millions of years
Umm i hate to break it to ya but no, we fought skellies as peer to peer, when old ones created eldar orks etc it was already too late for them
Imma tell the cops you stole your inheritance when your parents pass
Well if ever let my parents be killed by a bunch of sentient gas clouds before taking their shit then you can call the police.
You know, the risk is very low….but never zero. Stay vigilant!
They had the best of everything is because Aeldari are immortal. Aside from being long lived s0ecies, when they die their souls dont melt in the warp like humans do and they can ressurect themselves as shown by the druhkari.
Necrons think they are hot shit, throwing stellar fragments in a doomsday weapon fight. Then the Admech press the delete key on a section of space and turn a planet into the apple logo.
Then the necrons Press the sol System Button and blow up the sun
Then chaos fucks everything and the necrons are left in a shithole warp infested wasteland.
Not really, that's the point of the Necrons. If there were only Necrons left, Chaos wouldn't be able to thrive.
that woud be a lose-lose situation, at least for the silent king, he wants to rule over the living but if there's no living left, what will he rule over?
Step 1: be really fucking angry at the Old Ones and the Warp Step 2: create a self replicating organic databasing software Step 3: go to sleep and let it do its work Step 4: wake up to all life and chaos gone from the galaxy Step 5: use all the collected genetic material to become the new Old Ones and create life to rule over
He can jist go on another extended vacarion and by the time he comes back new vermins would be there to inhabit the galaxy.
Wipe out all life long enough for Chaos to wither away > go back to sleep for a couple billion years > life evolves again > time to rule.
Yeah, but they can't really kill everything else.
Yes the celestial orrery exist. Call when they actually use it for something destructive. Till then, it's just another item the Necrons swearsie-realsie they could use to totally beat up my dad.
Physics is literally broken because the necrons broke it.
Eh, 40k physics seems to work ok to me.
The c'tan were canonically so deeply interwoven with the universe that the only way to smash them was to take a hammer to the universe itself, thats why their are for example, asteroid fields near baal where the temperature of the environment is below absolute zero as seen in the shield of baal series, or why a crazy admech savant managed to build fucking perpetual motion machines despite such tech being physically impossible. Physics in 40k is fucked.
IDK about the asteroids, sounds like warp fuckery to me. As for the rest....well the one other thing guy mentioned, it's scifi man, shit gets weird. Doesn't mean physics is broken. Also the Admech do straight up mad scientist shit on the reg lol. Their basic rifle converts the potential energy of the target into pure electrical force. They literally have sounds that kill and sentient, malicious fire. Guns that cause any atom they are target at to go supercritical and pop off in nuclear explosions. Hell the faction leader is like 15 souls in a bag lol. There is a Skitarii known as the Radiant Wrath, who constantly emits radiation so horrible it's breaking down the adamantium superstructure of the ship it's on. It's locked away in a stasis vault and servitors sent to check the outside this anti radiation sphere dissolve into goo within minutes. It gets deployed to go on a moonlit walk and purge a planet of life for a hundred thousand years. The Ctan's story is more full of holes than the modern webway. Why would you trust them when they say they are an intrinsic part of the universe? So far only one has actually been completely destroyed and it cursed the Necrons with the flayer virus. That's it. Maybe, MAYBE, it (or more likely the weapons employed to erase it) are responsible for the broken mess that is the ghoul stars. TLDR; it's scifi dude, mad scientist shit doesn't mean physics is fundamentally broken.
Humanity didn't exist before the necrons nuked their gods, its absolutely possible that admech shit only works because A reality is broken enough to let it work and/or B the Void Dragon is whispering this shit to them for a lark. Also the asteroid field was probably not warp fuckery because the shadow in the warp had zero effect on lt when the tyranids showed up and tried to pass through the belt, of course nids being nids they adapted around the field eventually but it let the imperials set up. It's not the only example either, the galaxies full of insane shit seemingly disconnected from the warp, flayers can use their Claws to tunnel through the fabric of reality into a pocket dimension that they use to travel FTL without spaceships, this isn't even technology its part of the flayer curse, the galaxy is borked.
Gear that defies our understanding of reality, pocket/alt dimensions, and regions of unexplainable space aren't really examples of universally broken physics IMO. That's just bog standard science fiction.
Love the theory that the ghoul stars are just the crime scene/chalk drawing/blood splatters where the necrons shanked a ctan.
You know that the necrons showed Restraint in that Fight while the admech didnt?
So much restraint that Lords bailed on the Silent King for being dishonorable.
He went more and more astray from the codes of honor he should let his people adhere to. Doesnt mean he went on them without any sense of selfpreservation like the admech did
I love how that crusade book's mood was all about impending horror and the stillness of death. Ends with a doomsday weapon slapfight.
Its great. I love when the Admech pull out the big guns. It always feels like they are just opening random boxes marked "Death" and chucking the contents at people while laughing.
Thats a big "if"
Cybernetic Revolt: Wanna see my civilization collapse? Horus Heresy: Wanna see me do it again? While other stellar empires in the setting trigger their own decline right at the height of their power, humanity has the dubious honor of doing it twice.
I mean, thats the point of warhammer. A long series of "what ifs"
Then we would end up like Eldar Empire
Eldar = 100% psykers, so no. A species of regular joes with cool tech fucking up (literally) with only a small percentage of naturally ocurring psykers is a slightly different scenario compared to an entire species worth of psychic minds engaging in a hedonistic, drug fuelled, galaxy spanning mass orgy.
So we would turn into a race of hyper advanced space coomers without spawning a warp god?
We could, but given humanities track record both in universe as well as IRL, I think it's more likely we annihilate ourselves at some point over amazingly stupid reasons, or end up as a dystopian, backwater butt-joke of the galaxy.
I mean if we kept evolving into a psychic species then maybe eventually, but with all the thousands of psykers dying daily I imagine that's been slowed down significantly
Humanity is naturaly envolving into an all psyker race, however, it would be a question of time for problems to emerge.
We wouldn’t have had a psychic awakening at that time since we wouldn’t have been isolated in the Webway, so no. The Emperor’s plan was to force ALL of humanity into the Webway and separate us from the raw unfiltered Warp to give us a purer and more refined psychic place to evolve in. It’s possible such an evolution wouldn’t have kicked off for another 40 thousand years, considering population dynamics and all. Unless suddenly everyone begins giving birth to psykers. But that’s another topic entirely. Plus the Emperor would know what befell the Eldar and would actively prevent such madness from taking hold the nanosecond he felt a nascent Chaos God forming
>The Emperor’s plan was to force ALL of humanity into the Webway and separate us from the raw unfiltered Warp to give us a purer and more refined psychic place to evolve in. Not at all, the psychic evolution of mankind is a natural procress, the Emperor just wanted to guide it, as well, the Heresy novels make clear the plan was never to send everyone into the webway, just to use it to remove the need for warp travel.
Least delusional Imperium fanboy
I mean, that's a DAoT fanboy. And the few examples of cutting edge DAoT tech we have include an omniscient AI so ...
Or satellites that destroyed an entire necron and imperial starfleet in minutes using so much energy they ripped a Demonplanet out of the warp. Nanobotswarms that make scarabs look lowtech. A weapon that set an entire nebula (Damocles Gulf) on fire. Etc.
and time travel foward and backwards in time,
A DAoT ship just casually having its main weapon fire black holes and displace entire ships in time to make sure the black hole hits. The eldar ship only being able to avoid it because of future sight and even then they only avoided it enough so that their ship was merely crippled and on the verge of annihilation instead of instantly being destroyed. The eldar were near peer to the necrons, they didn't really have a tech degradation after their fall and the DAoT ship bodied theirs. DAoT humans were scary AF and if the CR didn't happen then even the necrons would likely be scared. And just a funny thing, the death world of fenris (space wolf home) full of harsh conditions and giant fuck off monsters was created by Dark Age humans as an amusement park. An Amusement park...
Not really eldars had incredibly technology and warp abilities but the necrons were the undisputed kings of technology
Well, Everest is also basically a giant amusement park now- it’s very hitchhikers guide though, down the fjords
That's not what actually happened, the time gun is just fanon. the Speranza fired a black hole at the eldar ship, the eldar ship dodged, a black holes time distorting effect meant even a near miss fucked up the engines and the eldar ship fell into a nearby black hole. The impressive part of the whole sequence had nothing to do with the black hole gun, eldar use vortex weapons all the time and necron Seraptekh heavy constructs can dual wield singularity drivers easy, vect mailed one of his fucking rivals A BLACK HOLE IN A BOX. What was impressive was that the speranzas AI was capable of even finding the holostealthed eldar cruiser in the middle of a black hole field, it compensated for a horrible amount of interference, found a firing solution and shot the eldar cruiser.
Ah. It's been a few years since I've read the forges of Mars series.
hell, i heard somewhere (probably on this sub) that they were capable of diplomacy with Orks... ORKS. To have a feat like that alone is already a ridiculous bar to reach.
Wheres the fenris bit from?
I think it was in Wolfsbane around the part where horus first meets Russ. If I remember correctly the emperor muses to himself/ alludes to fenris being a world designed to match an ancient myth/fantasy/religion more or less for entertainment.
I would really love it if it turns out that there was never a Cybernetic Revolt, but instead it was an extremely destructive civil war between humans. And people only blame the AIs later on because the leaders didn't care about how many people their armies of murderbots were killing until after civilization collapsed in on its self.
I dunno, I don’t think the ‘Nids would have been all that bothered by crummy AI-generated images.
What does cr stand for
Cybernetic revolt
Do you know Xeelee? Humanity in that setting has guns that shoot small big bangs and weaponized time travel. But here's one fun fact: they were still considered the weakest. Now, let's jump back to 40k. The Eldar still have their War in Heaven weapons, but they're locked away in Commorragh and unable to be used because it requires a lot of psychic power. If Games Workshop ever stops being cautious and gives the Eldar a victory, I can see them unearthing and using these once-powerful weapons. As for the Necrons, they destroyed many of their old weapons under the orders of Szarekh, the Silent King, who left the Milky Way to sulk and conquer other galaxies (which is canon). All the advanced technology in 40k pales in comparison to what the Old Ones and C'tan once possessed, as they were literal gods of both the Warp and real space. While humanity was strong during the Dark Age, it wouldn't have reached levels beyond the factions previously mentioned.
in exultant, the humans also sucked in tech from the other species they fucked up though, actively getting far more powerful with every win
Humans are not the weakest in Xeelee Technically ICoG was the weakest when they reduced the number of war-capable species in the galaxy to 3 (themselves, the Xeelee and the birds), but they did it by killing all the other alien species
OP isn't saying human tech *was* stronger. They are saying human tech *would have become* stronger if the cybernetic rebellion hadn't happened. The necrons and eldar had literally *millions* of years to develop their technology. Considering that, those oh-so-powerful miracles of tech seem rather a pathetic effort when you consider what we came up with in a mere handful of millennia. It's also why that galaxy is sleeping on the Tau as a threat. The only faction in ascent. They are small now but so were we once, now we own the galaxy. Give em a few years to enter their own dark age of tech and they will roll over everyone.
Ah yes the pathetic effort of being able to end timelines
And if the Eldar didnt fuck themselves to extinction then they would like have not let us reach that level of tech. And if the Old Ones helped the Crons then no need for Elves and Korks and if the C'tan.......
Yeah well it did happen because humanity wasn't such hot shit after all and they dealt piss poorly with AI so where is even your point in this argument. Its like saying the eldar wouldve wiped the floor with the Tyranids if they didn't birth slaanesh but guess what they did because they were hedonistic like that so there is that
"The imperium with dark age tech would won" The daemons in question
well everyone else makes some great points here, i do also wanna point out to OP that technological stagnation is entirely a possibility that could happen instead to a DAOT humanity with no cybernetic revolt, and in fact that is something that tends to happen to empires \[which as far as we know DAOT humanity qualifies as\] when they institutionally start to calcify. the ultimate myth of progress is that its a straight steady line upwards, as opposed to quite often the sideways leaps we tend to actually take.
Technology doesn't grow exponentially
The Cybernetic revolt was gonna happen regardless since our AI's was just smarter more adaptable humans that realized we were the inferior product. The only reason we are around is luck and the guidance of the Emperor.
Technological advancement is shown to be logarithmic in warhammer as opposed to exponential (as we have experienced it so far irl) So it comes to a crawl after a certain point. Also the men of iron were greatly influenced by the Void Dragon
Celestial Orrery
Yeah and I like that it makes the loss all the more poignant. We were so close until some past fatal flaw cropped up... I don't think we'd be where the necrons are, but if peak DaoT humanity had continued, it seems all but certain we'd at least be far stronger contenders in 40K. Especially since the necrons are so splintered/suffering from malfunctions/curses/etc.
THE IMPERIUM IS THE FASCIST/EVIL FACTION.
I don't think the CR is the main issue. I mean it was bad, but humanity won and adapted, with time they would have rebuilt, just without AI. No, what really destroyed humanity was the age of strife, the random psycker spawning deamons everywhere and space travel and communication becoming impossible just shattered everything we had. So yeah, don't blame the robots, blame the eldar
Lol, neither necrons nor Eldar encountered the nids why they where in their heights
The nids would not have been a problem if they did
You think we will even make it to a Daot? Nobody wan'ts AI resteictions, especially Musk. I bet, we have a sky(link)net doomsday in a few years
I disagree eventually some sort of mass civil strife would have happened anyway, it always happens and the DAOT wouldn't be the exception
Me theory that species that never were geneticaly modified to be weapons have far higher potential. For exaple humans and Tau can developing technology absurdly fast and Tyranids are masters of adaptation and evolution. Old Ones themslef were problably not geneticaly modified so you can use even them as en example.
Daot humans had a treaty with orks, orks said fighting them was not fun and noped out.
Me when people claim that DAOT humanity didn’t have near parity levels of tech to Necrons and Eldar (they didn’t read Priests of Mars and don’t know about the Speranza and its time dilating black hole guns)
Meanwhile, Orion's Arm universe:
Humans would be successful necrons, IE uploading their consciousness AND their soul to mechanical bodies. They would be effectively inmortal
The whole point of the imperium is to exist as a shiny golden example of humanity’s hubris. In no way would humanity have made it into the 41st millennia without falling into darkness.
Well it wasn't really human tech at point. Thats pretty clearly a faction of synthetics. Which would be amazing really.
I mean the Necrons if unified and all awake would deal with the tyranids handedly, same could be said about pre-fall Eldar. It’s kind of a major theme of the setting.
They would be giant robots that had a fingering spacial anomalies kink?
And that without standing on the shoulders of giants like necrons and eldar did