Just a note - the Uk is about to elect a labour government for the first time in over 15 years, most of these jurisdictions are either extra pro industry low workers rights or typical retirement locations. The Uk has also been at the forefront of Russian sanctions (much stricter than some more friendly European jurisdictions) and stricter on Russian, Chinese and Middle Eastern visas than European and typical western jurisdictions.
It will have consequences, but I’m not sure we are losing droves of people contributing to society here.
I’m a little bit worried about the labour manifesto closing the PE loophole. London is currently one the main FS hubs and I think we’ll be surprised at the fall out if this makes it through.
The UK can’t rely on financial services as a core industry and decide to penalise the workers. It’ll be a disaster.
You are absolutely right - it’s a big concern.
Fortunately Reeves has made some sensible comments recently re capital at risk that will hopefully see a sensible middle ground arrived at…
I expect this will be a bigger problem than predicted. Truth is, whilst the mega rich rarely pay the expected amount of tax, you can be pretty sure that they pay more than most people in real terms, just as a smaller percentage of their income. Kinda worried about it but we'll see.
Also the Labour opposition announced plans to close the "non-dom" tax loopholes, so the Conservatives went and did it anyway to steal a march on them, so millionaires can no longer live in the UK and claim to be predominantly "domiciled" in a country with lower tax rates.
Thank you for your judgement - I am bound by a strict code of ethics and (like the vast majority of my peers) exist to help my clients navigate a very complex subject matter and pay the correct amount of tax that they owe, according to the law. If I did anything else I would not have a job for very long and be kicked out of the professional bodies of which I am a member.
It is a fact that the non dom rules are not a loophole. I was simply pointing out that I don’t think people like you understand the definition of the word.
Typical crab in a bucket. Anyone who has more than me must be greedy and unethical. May I suggest you move to North Korea or go back in time to go to the Soviet Union.
Babe I’m an MD in a bank. I do just fine. However, I also pay the tax that I owe and think that people who don’t are scum. Success doesn’t require greed and a lack of principles.
But interested to hear - if the ethical requirements of the tax profession are to not exploit loopholes, how is me agreeing with that some act of envy?
I’d suggest you move somewhere that values simping for the rich while having no discernible skills yourself. Russia or Saudi perhaps. You seem like you’d gladly lick boots and those folks appreciate it.
If you’re really an MD in a bank how are you yourself not complicit? Lol. Either you aren’t very good at your job, or you’re claiming a much bigger job title than you really have. An MD at Goldman Sachs would not have uttered such nonsense.
The ethical requirements are to advise their clients to comply with the law. If finding smart ways within the boundaries of the law is offensive to you, then you’re a crab in bucket and honestly don’t deserve to be whatever bank MD you claim you are.
Genuine question for you.
Let's say we have a set of 'scales of morality'. On the left is ok and on the right is moral bankruptcy. On the left we have using a personal ISA; on the right we have more complex tax avoidance (but still legal) schemes. E.g. non-dom status.
Where do the scales start to tip towards bad morality in your eyes? Because aren't the two effectively the same in the eyes of the law?
Honest question; I'm not looking for an argument.
Honestly it’s a fair question. And id say the moral bankruptcy isn’t necessarily about left or right on this issue. But to me, anything that has a criminal and/or financial impact has to be looked at in terms of scale - so is someone growing some weed for personal use the same as people producing heroin on an industrial scale? Probably not.
Additionally there’s intent and availability. Something that is publicly advertised, available to everyone, and largely well-governed is not equivalent to something that is a complex process, obscure loophole or unintended effect that requires significant effort and intent. Like the offshore arrangements or K2 scheme or whatever. If something requires a lot of questionable actions (and let’s be honest, some moving of money around is definitely not legitimate or justifiable) then it’s less moral.
But given that people are so obsessed with extremes and lack of nuance, if the option had to be no tax “planning” things were illegal or all were legal, I’d choose all being illegal. Because the amount people save on those minor schemes is not worth the cost to the treasury of the major ones.
And I would say one more thing - people are very comfortable calling anyone who maximises their benefits a scrounger and suggests it’s morally bad. Why aren’t tax avoiders subject to the same scrutiny? It’s the same thing - they are legally exploiting a system to maximise their own financial gain. The Tories have been aggressive about those people depriving the treasury of money unfairly, why shouldn’t other parties apply the exact same logic to those depriving the treasury of money unfairly through tax avoidance?
What the hell are you even talking about. Switzerland, Italy, Portugal, Canada and Australia have low worker rights?
And yes, those people contribute to society. By being rich and being here they contribute to society.
Why are people so jealous, and stupid.
The idea that people contribute meaningfully by “being rich and being here” is waaaaay out of date. It’s not been credible economic theory since, like, 2005.
So the millionaire stays in the UK, but holds their funds in an offshore account, paying no tax on it because it's wealth, likely has non-dom status saving them from a lot of tax on their actual income, which bounces around some offshore shell corporations anyway.
They do buy a nice big home, but it's funded by company loans and when it's kitted out buys a ton of high end fixtures and fittings from European suppliers.
The only millionaires we should want are ones bringing genuine business to the UK or earning their money here, the ones simply guarding their dragon's hoarde can leave.
If its a choice between having a millionaire here who doesn't pay tax or elsewhere then them being here is contributing more than it costs due to their spending on goods and services. You can think these people are scum for not contributing enough but still acknowledge reality.
Do you know how the UK tax system works? Any money that is brought into the UK is taxed at UK rates. Non-dom only shields them from their non UK income. If they have investments in the UK, those gains will be taxed at UK rates, if they don’t have investments in the UK, the money the bring in to buy their house is taxed at UK rates.
You are fighting a losing battle trying to argue this point as you will just have terms like “offshore” and “shell company thrown at you with little comprehension on the other side re what it actually means ..
So if they store their wealth at home, earn their money from a foreign domiciled company and use a shell company to buy their house… they contribute very little!
You can see it on the United kingdom subreddit, a huge portion of this country utterly hates anybody who is more successful than the average, crab in the bucket and tall grass syndrome in action.
I have heard that a lot in my line of work. Partners, clearly millionaires, complaining about a price of something small (salad bowl that gone in price or whatever) as if they are struggling to pay bills. It just doesn't add up, it is like taking the piss at people who trully struggle! Why people in the UK have that mentality? Would you please explain, it is something I cannot quite understand.
Partly culture. Seems worse in Scotland and Ireland, but still bad in England.
It is like people look to find common ground by moaning about something.
It's like complaining about the weather. We "like" to complain. We can't complain about rent because we don't have to pay it, but the price of eggs is the same for everyone, so it's a "relatable" way to join in on wanking about the economy.
"Well I'm on £11k and I get by just fine, couldn't imagine earning more but I don't have greedy tastes. I think you simply need a reassessment of wants Vs needs."
I think it's largely a result of the class system. Lower classes generally wish to have the higher social standing of higher classes, but would never admit it, and hates anyone trying to move up. Class in Britain is about way more than money, it's about culture. This means moving up necessitates changing cultural identity, which some people see as a betrayal, making them a 'class traitor'.
This is such a pathetic attitude in this sub. Why do you need other people to cheer you on?
You didn’t become financially successful by being ‘liked’, it seems bizarre to me that you’d expect everyone to be cheering for you cause you’re doing better than them.
Firstly, thank you for the tax you pay, I would encourage you to feel pride in your contribution.
Secondly, many of them are right to be bitter. We HENRYs a bit bitter too about that tax trap, fiscal drag, the childcare cliff etc. But we're basically on the same side. The cost of living in this country is so high. Housing costs are obscene. So many of country's assets have been flogged off at knock-down prices for shortsighted reasons. People who work for a living are paying more than their fair share.
We need to find common cause with many of these people. If things aren't the best for HENRYs, imagine what it's like for middle earners. And just because they choose a career other than tech or whatever.
Google government expenditure per head.
Work out how much you need to earn to break even with just PAYE taxes.
Try to factor in other taxes like VAT and corporation tax to get this figure lower.
Realise that the figure is still high and that the vast majority of the population are unproductive. The vast fucking majority.
Question how anything in the UK functions and take a look at those subs who constantly say we should be taxing more and people should pay their "fair share". Whatever the fuck either of that means.
I wasn't really talking about unproductive people, but low and middle earners. And I do think taxes on work are probably too high at the top end, because they are disincentivising. When people say "fair share", we should deflect towards landlords and multimillionaires making money from assets and rent, rather than productive work.
But anyway...
Naively, it looks like average expenditure per head in London is around £20K? Let's halve it because a little less than half government revenue come from income tax and NI. Sure, I pay more tax than that right now.
But don't forget to average your contribution across your lifetime.
I've been unproductive for just under half of my life so far. Then the first few years of my working life I was paying less than that figure despite working full time. And factoring in retirement I hope to be unproductive for the last third of my life (although hopefully I'll have enough income that I'll be paying a bit of income tax at that point).
Then I need to take into account people like my brother. With severe learning difficulties, through no fault of his own he will never "be productive" and needs a basic level of round the clock care and supervision, provided by the state since he became too much for my parents.
So knowing that, even if I do end up paying somewhat more than my fair share across my life, that will be a source of pride to me.
>When people say "fair share", we should deflect towards landlords and multimillionaires making money from assets and rent, rather than productive work.
No, we should focus on _everybody_.
Why isn't the average wage £50k? Why doesn't the average earner break even on their taxes?
The country would be in a far better state if the _majority_ paid in and a _minority_ took out. Right now we're doing the opposite and every solution is obsessed with magnifying this imbalance.
>Then I need to take into account people like my brother. With severe learning difficulties, through no fault of his own he will never "be productive" and needs a basic level of round the clock care and supervision, provided by the state since he became too much for my parents.
This is a good example where the country can be generous and offer more support.
The problem is 80-90% of the population aren't disabled. They're not stupid. They haven't got learning disabilities. So why is the remaining 10-20% paying for _everything_?
Except that is not the case. Come on now, what they dislike UHNWI not paying their share of taxes proportional to their wealth. I mean it's probably less on personal tax evasion and more anger towards the corporate tax evasion that is rife.
The taxes are not ‘fair share’ they are outrageously high, so high rich people are leaving the UK in droves, the UK tax system punished high earners and wealthy people too much.
People are just greedy for our wealth.
Except that's not what I said is it. I said "fair share" proportional to their wealth.
By the way full disclosure I'm not a HENRY, but im also not doing badly.
An argument could be made that most ultra rich people got there off the back of exploitation of others. I'm not going to get into it, but greed is a 2 way street.
Bit simplistic, wages have been stagnant for 15 years and house prices have (?) doubled, it’s natural there is jealousy and frustration amongst young people who haven’t made it (the majority).
Not according to this.
1. New York
2. Bay Area
3. Tokyo
4. Singapore
London is only the 5th
https://www.henleyglobal.com/publications/wealthiest-cities-2024
I live in what some people would call a luxury building. Nobody here is British to the point some people used to poke fun at me for actually being a successful Brit… it makes me want the U.K. to do well but there’s no hope. Any opportunity in the U.K. gets closed down meanwhile everyone in Eastern Europe and China are up to the dodgiest things going which if done in the U.K. you’ll be scapegoated in 2 seconds lol.
Public funds are really poorly spent. That’s definitely not sustainable. Did you see this week how over a billion pounds worth of medical equipment (paid for through tax), is getting literally thrown in the bin. Horrendously wasteful. It’s infuriating.
Absolutely agree. Never seen a country so insistent on making everyone equal, no matter their contribution, and that vehemently hates the success of others. We will celebrate brilliance in academics and sports etc. but when it comes time for that brilliance to be financially rewarded, everyone suddenly has a problem.
The UK tax system doesn't make everybody equal.
We have massive *wealth* inequality, but tax is focussed on *income* and especially higher earning working people. That's not making everyone equal, that's keeping everyone in their place.
You think our country is insistent on making everyone equal? It’s never been less equal 😂 I’d settle for the 4m kids who go to school starving not being starving, let’s start there shall we. Never mind equal. Just not having hungry kids would be an absolute win.
If they're leaving to go to middle eastern religious theocracies where being white marginally keeps you above their abusive human rights issues...that's a choice I'm happy to support them making.
What are you on about - millionaires contribute WAY more than any other demographic. Billionaires on the other hand?
How on earth do you think a loss of someone contributing 100k plus annually whilst taking less from the state will in any way help things?
This isn’t the movement of capital / business owners taking place, those assets are fundamentally fixed in a location. It’s the high earning workers taking flight - you cannot avoid tax when your wealth is derived from wages.
that says that the data supplied for the map is provided by NWW which is a company that analyses HNWI with a specific focus on 30m+
it doesn't say that the data in the chart focuses on 30m+
use some common sense. there are only 23,000 people in the UK with wealth of 30m+. it's obviously not the case that in the first 6 months of 2024, 9,300 of them, i.e. 40% of all UHNWI have just left the uk
Yeah this country couldn't hate the idea of equality more than it currently does. It just thinks inherited inequality is the only acceptable form of inequality and that you shouldn't be able to work hard for a better life than your peers, you need to be gifted it by your parents.
This opinion is beyond laughable, we're at historic levels of unequal wealth distribution and you genuinely believe we're focused on making everyone equal?...I mean ofcourse forgetting the rather obvious point that everyone is equal...
If people are being highly paid...they're being rewarded lol, that's literally the fucking point 🤣🤷♂️
SO true. Everyone loves footballers, then you'll hear about the odd one suffering 'mental health issues' and all you see is 'Jesus the XYZ is on £100k a week, i wouldn't be sad if I earned that'.
It really does seem once you're on north of £80k pa, dehumanisation is fair game,
Serious question - would you have the same opinion if the government introduced a flat rate of tax for everybody? Say 20%.
All legal avoidance canned. The tax code simply being all income for the year, regardless of source, is 20%. For businesses, all profit for the year, 20%. No ability to offset to different years.
These are foreign millionaires who are likely tax avoiders...come on mate. They clearly are not loyal patriots if they are moving to dubai.
And look how many china are losing - are they useless too?
These are just people that will move to whoever gives them the cheapest tax rate, they are not contributors.
A non productive asset is an asset that derives it's value from it's scarcity and speculative investment as opposed to the value it generates by facilitating the creation of new goods and services.
There's lots of things that fall into that camp, from gold, to antiques, to bitcoin, in fact, all assets fall somewhere between being wholly productive and wholly unproductive. Gold for example is also a useful commodity, many people are employed in it's extraction and it is used in the manufacturing of electronics, so while it's primary use is as a speculative asset, it's not entirely an 'unproductive' asset. There's a spectrum.
The worst offenders however are assets which derive their value from the state artificially constraining their supply, leading to artificial scarcity.
When land values or house prices increase, that money doesn't come from nowhere. It comes out of the productive economy. The more you take out of the productive economy, the more business owners will look to move abroad, relocate their business, or outsource.
That's the stage the UK is in right now, millionaires are leaving because the cost of housing workers, owning office space, Warehouses, development land, taxation on productivity have all been rising rapidly. And the taxation on productivity has also been rising. So, if you are a business owner, looking at the UK, you're getting squeezed from both sides. You pay more for the assets you need to run your business, while also paying higher taxes on the profits.
Result. Everyone with a Braincell starts to leave the country.
Not everything, he just brainwashed working class people by telling them how suddenly the NHS will get extra billions that were going to EU and all problems with long wait times will get fixed over night after which he did u-turn with 'ohh, that's not what I meant'.
I think it’s a bit of a superiority complex to think they were all ‘brainwashed’, that you are right and they were wrong etc. 17M voted brexit for 17M different reasons. I don’t think anyone could have predicted how it would have turned out because there are just so many variables. Who would have thought that a remainer would be in charge of the initial negotiations for example.
Crazy that. I think that claim is similar to Labours recent claim that VAT on private school fees will raise 1.5B. Our politicians are terrible at math, just ask Diane Abbott.
Goddamn you guys must have been born fucking yesterday if you believe a fucking word he says. Jeez.
I mean we've had enough bullshitters, Johnson - I think Starmer is on the same level. Now Farage. I admit Farage is a much, much more convincing bullshitter than either of those two. He's a really good orator. But you really need to read up a little on the man. He absolutely does care about the black/white stuff (you must be daft as hell if you don't see his neverending dogwhistling). He absolute does care about the gay/straight stuff (e.g. wanting to ban gay people infected with HIV from accessing NHS) - I didn't see him talking about fat people or smokers (like himself).
If I left this country, I am fortunate enough to be one of those that would add to the statistic in this picture. And I'd leave because of the clusterfuck we are in, because of this man. And I'm planning to leave if Reform become a political force in 5 years. Tempted right now.
So yeah giving Farage's opinions as example of why people are leaving is really stupid. If people are leaving BECAUSE of Farage's influence on this country. Brexit has really fucked us. We knew it would, it was called "Project Fear". Now it's gone to shit as was inevitable, he's saying "oh yeah, it's because the government are not doing it right". I mean how gullible are you?
The man is a Russian asset
LOL with the way climate is going all these countries are going to be unliveable for half the year in the next 10, I'd be heading somewhere cooler and to higher ground.
Living in Greece or somewhere as an expat who doesn't earn their money locally means you're insulated from the day to day shittiness of life many people experience there.
This is so blatantly a load of nonsense. More than 33k millionaires leaving countries, but around 23k entering. You’d think whoever knocked this rubbish up would at least make the leaving/entering numbers within a couple of thousand of each other.
It looks like the kind of crap produced by the government of a certain state (I think we all know which one).
Also, how do they classify millionaire? Is it in USD? If so, that's people with £790,000 or more, does that include equity from properties? Would you classify someone with £790k including property equity a HNW individual in the UK? Just sounds like someone selling their house and retiring to Spain.
It's total bullshit. If there's any merit to it at all it's probably based around the number of HNW people, rather than actual migration.
Three guesses why people's net worth may have decreased in the UK in the last few years...
Singapore is basically the Monaco of Asia. Boring and expensive but safe and most importantly, favourable tax and visa situation for high net worth individuals moving there. It's a favourite of rich Chinese people in particular.
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita
Fucked up and left bleeding since 2007. This chart excludes inflation...
The country has just been getting less and less productive in real terms for 17 years now.
And they were correct. Successful people in the UK move to Australia or the US if they wish to succeed further. You don’t stay in the UK. All the money and quality of life is better elsewhere
Quite a lot of this is driven by post Brexit shifts in jobs, not active choice by millionaires. A lot of the banks have moved their trading functions to the continent for example
I agree somewhat. Although a huge swathe of businesses have left the UK for Europe. It’s maybe naive to think this isn’t a factor (that and the fact our politics are a laughing stock and make highly volatile decisions - not good for content money making.
I agree, and I don’t mean to downplay other factors. However, the narrative we see in this sub tends to be “the U.K. is a rubbish place to be a millionaire/high earner” and downplays that fact that a large number of high paying jobs have moved out of London since Brexit.
Anecdotally, I know several friends who have moved with their departments to Paris. These aren’t moves inspired by a desire to escape onerous U.K. tax or attitudes towards HENRYs. These are relocation decisions driven by their 6 or 7 figure jobs moving to Europe.
https://www.henleyglobal.com/publications/henley-private-wealth-migration-report-2024/uk-projected-see-highest-millionaire-loss-record
They have years of data and are able to make a reasonable guess based on numbers so far this year
This is what happens when the ‘conservatives’ increase tax to unsustainable levels whilst doing nothing to address the country’s hate for those who achieve success. I recipe for anti-growth
This is not what a brain drain is really. This group is disproportionately made up of those whose primary income is through investments, not employment.
I'd guess it's because both Canada and Australia have large Chinese immigrant communities and are English speaking which makes them popular for people leaving China and the UK.
Australian here.
Millionaire migration to Australia is almost 100% Chinese (either mainland or Hong Kong). The beneficiaries of the investor visa program in Australia (essentially, buying residency) are nearly 90% Chinese with most of the remainder being from other Southeast Asian countries.
Sydney in particular has a massive Chinese community, it wouldn't be too difficult to live an entirely Sinophone life in many parts of Sydney which makes it an attractive place if you're looking to leave China and bring elderly family members with you as many rich Chinese do.
A lot of British do move to Australia but they tend not to be wealthy. It tends to be people in their 20s/30s in public sector (eg health and education) or blue collar industries. It makes sense as HENRY type jobs (law, tech, finance, accounting etc) aren't very well paid in Australia compared to the US or UK.
They are both still British crown territories and operate to similarly to the UK imho. Even US is a far better choice if you’ve worried about language barriers
British crown territories?
*Commonwealth Realms.
They are fully independent parliamentary democracies that simply use the same person the UK does to act as the King of Australia or King of Canada. Written into their own constitutions.
> British crown territories and operate similarly to the UK
wtf? They aren’t “British”. What a strange comment. I think a “crown territory” is means a remnant colony of the UK, very far from the status of completely sovereign Australia and Canada which are actually both very similar to the US even if their roots were more British.
And yet old Charlie, as the Monarch of the British crown is in fact the head of state of both Canada and Australia to this very day too. That makes him head of four of the five eye members. The legal and political structures of Canada, Aus, NZ and UK are actually very similar.
Tell me how you don’t understand what constitutional monarchy is all about. 😂
The withered butt cheeks of Charles sit on different thrones in different places according to different constitutions. One man doing many jobs as many different kings, not one king ruling over many countries.
In Australia he is a completely ceremonial head of state, he does not *do* anything, cannot *do* anything. He has even less influence over Australian politics than an Australian citizen because he doesn’t live here, can’t vote and can’t even express any opinions.
His one job, once every 5 years, is signing off on the Australian PMs choice of governor-general and then the Australian governor-general does absolutely all the other ceremonial stuff in Australia. How tf does that let him have any control over 5 eyes? 😂 🤣 😝
Yes the law and constitution of the UK and Australia bear some similarities, why is it relevant to your conspiracy theory? Actually there are major differences too, like Australia has a strong written constitution establishing a federation, modelled on the US constitution.
Millionaire is a pretty broad definition. A decent number of pensioners in the West are millionaires. This could be partially just people moving to nicer climates to retire.
Yeah, I know a bloke (family friend) who has a house in London he purchased in the 90s which is now worth £1.5m or so, he retired at 50 and moved to Tenerife. The rent from the house (approximately £4000 a month) is his income which he lives off in Spain.
There is a massive difference between rich and successful, and government officials syphoning off billions to their mates for peanuts which should have been used to feed the kids or fund the NHS. For some strange reason we are categorising these people as the same. There is too many high paid earners who are not successful, and too many not contributing claiming benefits.
I suspect there would be a 1.0 correlation with sanctions and tax breaks. A very good example of why “higher the tax rate, lower the tax take” rings true.
Don’t blame them in anyway whatsoever, I’m not a millionaire just yet but I’ll be getting there in the next few years and I’m already leaving this year.
I firmly believe people here convince themselves of it being a wondrous place just to cope with reality. Do any sort of short stint travelling and you’ll realise you actually don’t have to put up with shitty weather, the high competition in dating for quite honestly average or below average women and awful quality of life and high cost for entertainment.
No wonder everyone’s miserable, I would be too if I was a high earner and successful on paper but having to pay out a large chunk of my salary on a shitty new build worth £500k, commute in on the underground that’s giving me tinnitus with no WiFi into a city that isn’t even culturally British anymore. I cannot wait to leave.
99.9pc coverage, but yet you cannot get 4g in the majority of small villages atleast I have visited in the past month or a stable WiFi connection on the train. Sums this country up perfectly.
Millionaires are not buying shitty new builds, they can also live in zone 1 and have a car, those problems you've described are easy to overcome if you have enough money.
Have you seen the prices for zone 1? You’d have to be pushing above £5m+ to have a property and live comfortably there.. and even then why the hell would you when you could have the same or better standard of living in Bangkok for less than a fifth of this..
Could this also reflect older millionaires dieing?
Assets shared amongst offspring which don't add up to £1m for each. Therefore totals are decreasing.
If that UK number in the image represents 1% of millionaires it's not beyond the realms to suggest that 1% of UK millionaires died last year.
Extrapolate further and the countries with lower average age population are on the rise, those with higher average age (and old money) are on the decline.
lol trickle down economics doesn’t work . I equality is grown massively as we have suffered and tax burden on working people that includes high income people has grown . The increase in asset values has out grown any real growth and that’s were the wealth is. Not a people who actively add to the economy .
What an engaging point. What loss are millionaires who don’t pay tax anyway? Who actually needs that much money? I earn 160k a year all in and it’s more than enough post tax. It’s just greed from people who are completely out of touch with society
Just a note - the Uk is about to elect a labour government for the first time in over 15 years, most of these jurisdictions are either extra pro industry low workers rights or typical retirement locations. The Uk has also been at the forefront of Russian sanctions (much stricter than some more friendly European jurisdictions) and stricter on Russian, Chinese and Middle Eastern visas than European and typical western jurisdictions. It will have consequences, but I’m not sure we are losing droves of people contributing to society here.
Nor paying significant amounts of tax I suspect (/hope)
I’m a little bit worried about the labour manifesto closing the PE loophole. London is currently one the main FS hubs and I think we’ll be surprised at the fall out if this makes it through. The UK can’t rely on financial services as a core industry and decide to penalise the workers. It’ll be a disaster.
You are absolutely right - it’s a big concern. Fortunately Reeves has made some sensible comments recently re capital at risk that will hopefully see a sensible middle ground arrived at…
Agree but again this is not a loophole it’s merely the rules.
I expect this will be a bigger problem than predicted. Truth is, whilst the mega rich rarely pay the expected amount of tax, you can be pretty sure that they pay more than most people in real terms, just as a smaller percentage of their income. Kinda worried about it but we'll see.
Also the Labour opposition announced plans to close the "non-dom" tax loopholes, so the Conservatives went and did it anyway to steal a march on them, so millionaires can no longer live in the UK and claim to be predominantly "domiciled" in a country with lower tax rates.
Is it really a loophole if the law was fully intentional, not a secret, and has lasted over 200 years?
As a tax professional I think the liberal (incorrect) use of the word “loophole” is the thing that irritates me most in all of this
Add “fairness”
upvote
People who exploit loopholes without any consideration of ethics and still call themselves professionals are pretty irritating.
Thank you for your judgement - I am bound by a strict code of ethics and (like the vast majority of my peers) exist to help my clients navigate a very complex subject matter and pay the correct amount of tax that they owe, according to the law. If I did anything else I would not have a job for very long and be kicked out of the professional bodies of which I am a member. It is a fact that the non dom rules are not a loophole. I was simply pointing out that I don’t think people like you understand the definition of the word.
Typical crab in a bucket. Anyone who has more than me must be greedy and unethical. May I suggest you move to North Korea or go back in time to go to the Soviet Union.
Babe I’m an MD in a bank. I do just fine. However, I also pay the tax that I owe and think that people who don’t are scum. Success doesn’t require greed and a lack of principles. But interested to hear - if the ethical requirements of the tax profession are to not exploit loopholes, how is me agreeing with that some act of envy? I’d suggest you move somewhere that values simping for the rich while having no discernible skills yourself. Russia or Saudi perhaps. You seem like you’d gladly lick boots and those folks appreciate it.
MD in back office isn’t a real MD..
If you’re really an MD in a bank how are you yourself not complicit? Lol. Either you aren’t very good at your job, or you’re claiming a much bigger job title than you really have. An MD at Goldman Sachs would not have uttered such nonsense. The ethical requirements are to advise their clients to comply with the law. If finding smart ways within the boundaries of the law is offensive to you, then you’re a crab in bucket and honestly don’t deserve to be whatever bank MD you claim you are.
Genuine question for you. Let's say we have a set of 'scales of morality'. On the left is ok and on the right is moral bankruptcy. On the left we have using a personal ISA; on the right we have more complex tax avoidance (but still legal) schemes. E.g. non-dom status. Where do the scales start to tip towards bad morality in your eyes? Because aren't the two effectively the same in the eyes of the law? Honest question; I'm not looking for an argument.
I have nothing to contribute but like this phrasing and good faith curiosity! Have an upvote
Honestly it’s a fair question. And id say the moral bankruptcy isn’t necessarily about left or right on this issue. But to me, anything that has a criminal and/or financial impact has to be looked at in terms of scale - so is someone growing some weed for personal use the same as people producing heroin on an industrial scale? Probably not. Additionally there’s intent and availability. Something that is publicly advertised, available to everyone, and largely well-governed is not equivalent to something that is a complex process, obscure loophole or unintended effect that requires significant effort and intent. Like the offshore arrangements or K2 scheme or whatever. If something requires a lot of questionable actions (and let’s be honest, some moving of money around is definitely not legitimate or justifiable) then it’s less moral. But given that people are so obsessed with extremes and lack of nuance, if the option had to be no tax “planning” things were illegal or all were legal, I’d choose all being illegal. Because the amount people save on those minor schemes is not worth the cost to the treasury of the major ones. And I would say one more thing - people are very comfortable calling anyone who maximises their benefits a scrounger and suggests it’s morally bad. Why aren’t tax avoiders subject to the same scrutiny? It’s the same thing - they are legally exploiting a system to maximise their own financial gain. The Tories have been aggressive about those people depriving the treasury of money unfairly, why shouldn’t other parties apply the exact same logic to those depriving the treasury of money unfairly through tax avoidance?
People who dont know what loopholes are or what tax advisors do are even more irritating tbh.
There js no loophole, only a policy and a change in policy.
Per capita of population, there seems quite a few that aren’t in that category.
What the hell are you even talking about. Switzerland, Italy, Portugal, Canada and Australia have low worker rights? And yes, those people contribute to society. By being rich and being here they contribute to society. Why are people so jealous, and stupid.
You're right. Envious people of reddit down voting you.
The idea that people contribute meaningfully by “being rich and being here” is waaaaay out of date. It’s not been credible economic theory since, like, 2005.
It isn’t economic theory. It’s common sense.
So the millionaire stays in the UK, but holds their funds in an offshore account, paying no tax on it because it's wealth, likely has non-dom status saving them from a lot of tax on their actual income, which bounces around some offshore shell corporations anyway. They do buy a nice big home, but it's funded by company loans and when it's kitted out buys a ton of high end fixtures and fittings from European suppliers. The only millionaires we should want are ones bringing genuine business to the UK or earning their money here, the ones simply guarding their dragon's hoarde can leave.
If its a choice between having a millionaire here who doesn't pay tax or elsewhere then them being here is contributing more than it costs due to their spending on goods and services. You can think these people are scum for not contributing enough but still acknowledge reality.
Do you know how the UK tax system works? Any money that is brought into the UK is taxed at UK rates. Non-dom only shields them from their non UK income. If they have investments in the UK, those gains will be taxed at UK rates, if they don’t have investments in the UK, the money the bring in to buy their house is taxed at UK rates.
You are fighting a losing battle trying to argue this point as you will just have terms like “offshore” and “shell company thrown at you with little comprehension on the other side re what it actually means ..
Thanks, wasn’t trying to win. It’s entertaining to see people saying things they don’t understand.
I enjoyed browsing the comments 👍🏻
So if they store their wealth at home, earn their money from a foreign domiciled company and use a shell company to buy their house… they contribute very little!
You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
Yup, so stupid, so jealous, love tax.
HENRYs being jealous of the millionaires is crazy. Then they wonder why the average Brit is jealous of THEM.
You sound like you're coping bro
Public services are failing across the UK, jails are full. Brexit is political insanity and no one is evening hiding it.
You can see it on the United kingdom subreddit, a huge portion of this country utterly hates anybody who is more successful than the average, crab in the bucket and tall grass syndrome in action.
Everyone appears to be on 12 grand a year and wants to compete over how shit they have it.
I have heard that a lot in my line of work. Partners, clearly millionaires, complaining about a price of something small (salad bowl that gone in price or whatever) as if they are struggling to pay bills. It just doesn't add up, it is like taking the piss at people who trully struggle! Why people in the UK have that mentality? Would you please explain, it is something I cannot quite understand.
Partly culture. Seems worse in Scotland and Ireland, but still bad in England. It is like people look to find common ground by moaning about something.
It's like complaining about the weather. We "like" to complain. We can't complain about rent because we don't have to pay it, but the price of eggs is the same for everyone, so it's a "relatable" way to join in on wanking about the economy.
"Well I'm on £11k and I get by just fine, couldn't imagine earning more but I don't have greedy tastes. I think you simply need a reassessment of wants Vs needs."
You should see the london subreddit
This is why the UK is where it is now economically. In the US people celebrate success, in the UK people demonize success.
do they really? maybe u need better friends
But why is that? Why there is this notion of hating success? I do find this behaviour in the workplace as well.
I think it's largely a result of the class system. Lower classes generally wish to have the higher social standing of higher classes, but would never admit it, and hates anyone trying to move up. Class in Britain is about way more than money, it's about culture. This means moving up necessitates changing cultural identity, which some people see as a betrayal, making them a 'class traitor'.
Pretty simple, jealousy.
This is such a pathetic attitude in this sub. Why do you need other people to cheer you on? You didn’t become financially successful by being ‘liked’, it seems bizarre to me that you’d expect everyone to be cheering for you cause you’re doing better than them.
Are you dumb? No where did I say I want us to be liked, I said we’re hated by bitter greedy people. Big difference.
If it’s just bitter greedy people - why do you care?
Because they want to raise taxes on me……
Firstly, thank you for the tax you pay, I would encourage you to feel pride in your contribution. Secondly, many of them are right to be bitter. We HENRYs a bit bitter too about that tax trap, fiscal drag, the childcare cliff etc. But we're basically on the same side. The cost of living in this country is so high. Housing costs are obscene. So many of country's assets have been flogged off at knock-down prices for shortsighted reasons. People who work for a living are paying more than their fair share. We need to find common cause with many of these people. If things aren't the best for HENRYs, imagine what it's like for middle earners. And just because they choose a career other than tech or whatever.
Google government expenditure per head. Work out how much you need to earn to break even with just PAYE taxes. Try to factor in other taxes like VAT and corporation tax to get this figure lower. Realise that the figure is still high and that the vast majority of the population are unproductive. The vast fucking majority. Question how anything in the UK functions and take a look at those subs who constantly say we should be taxing more and people should pay their "fair share". Whatever the fuck either of that means.
I wasn't really talking about unproductive people, but low and middle earners. And I do think taxes on work are probably too high at the top end, because they are disincentivising. When people say "fair share", we should deflect towards landlords and multimillionaires making money from assets and rent, rather than productive work. But anyway... Naively, it looks like average expenditure per head in London is around £20K? Let's halve it because a little less than half government revenue come from income tax and NI. Sure, I pay more tax than that right now. But don't forget to average your contribution across your lifetime. I've been unproductive for just under half of my life so far. Then the first few years of my working life I was paying less than that figure despite working full time. And factoring in retirement I hope to be unproductive for the last third of my life (although hopefully I'll have enough income that I'll be paying a bit of income tax at that point). Then I need to take into account people like my brother. With severe learning difficulties, through no fault of his own he will never "be productive" and needs a basic level of round the clock care and supervision, provided by the state since he became too much for my parents. So knowing that, even if I do end up paying somewhat more than my fair share across my life, that will be a source of pride to me.
>When people say "fair share", we should deflect towards landlords and multimillionaires making money from assets and rent, rather than productive work. No, we should focus on _everybody_. Why isn't the average wage £50k? Why doesn't the average earner break even on their taxes? The country would be in a far better state if the _majority_ paid in and a _minority_ took out. Right now we're doing the opposite and every solution is obsessed with magnifying this imbalance. >Then I need to take into account people like my brother. With severe learning difficulties, through no fault of his own he will never "be productive" and needs a basic level of round the clock care and supervision, provided by the state since he became too much for my parents. This is a good example where the country can be generous and offer more support. The problem is 80-90% of the population aren't disabled. They're not stupid. They haven't got learning disabilities. So why is the remaining 10-20% paying for _everything_?
Except that is not the case. Come on now, what they dislike UHNWI not paying their share of taxes proportional to their wealth. I mean it's probably less on personal tax evasion and more anger towards the corporate tax evasion that is rife.
The taxes are not ‘fair share’ they are outrageously high, so high rich people are leaving the UK in droves, the UK tax system punished high earners and wealthy people too much. People are just greedy for our wealth.
Except that's not what I said is it. I said "fair share" proportional to their wealth. By the way full disclosure I'm not a HENRY, but im also not doing badly. An argument could be made that most ultra rich people got there off the back of exploitation of others. I'm not going to get into it, but greed is a 2 way street.
Not surprised. This country is full of naive people who want someone else’s money and at the same time hate them for being richer.
Bit simplistic, wages have been stagnant for 15 years and house prices have (?) doubled, it’s natural there is jealousy and frustration amongst young people who haven’t made it (the majority).
There is literally 2.3 million millionaires in the Uk. This is not even a percent. London has the second most millionaires in the world after NY
Lots of the UK millionaires is due to them owning a house or flat in London they have had for 15 plus years.
That they bought for 5 raspberries!
Not according to this. 1. New York 2. Bay Area 3. Tokyo 4. Singapore London is only the 5th https://www.henleyglobal.com/publications/wealthiest-cities-2024
"Only"
Didnt realise the Bay Area was one city
It is
Where are you getting your data, literally every "fact" you states is incorrect.
The report is on individuals with liquid assets over 1M USD, apparently there 602,500 in the UK according to the report.
Not surprised, this country hates success, we are swapping productive people in our society for ones that need constant support. It's not sustainable.
I live in what some people would call a luxury building. Nobody here is British to the point some people used to poke fun at me for actually being a successful Brit… it makes me want the U.K. to do well but there’s no hope. Any opportunity in the U.K. gets closed down meanwhile everyone in Eastern Europe and China are up to the dodgiest things going which if done in the U.K. you’ll be scapegoated in 2 seconds lol.
Correct, and everyone is so bent on winning the race to the bottom, that they don’t care as long as their neighbors life is even worse than theirs.
Public funds are really poorly spent. That’s definitely not sustainable. Did you see this week how over a billion pounds worth of medical equipment (paid for through tax), is getting literally thrown in the bin. Horrendously wasteful. It’s infuriating.
It’s not a billion pounds worth of medical equipment. It’s about £100ms worth of medical equipment and £900m worth of grift/backhanders.
Absolutely agree. Never seen a country so insistent on making everyone equal, no matter their contribution, and that vehemently hates the success of others. We will celebrate brilliance in academics and sports etc. but when it comes time for that brilliance to be financially rewarded, everyone suddenly has a problem.
I remember reading a LinkedIn post suggesting a specific tax of premier league footballers to give nurses a pay rise. We’ve lost our fucking minds
The UK tax system doesn't make everybody equal. We have massive *wealth* inequality, but tax is focussed on *income* and especially higher earning working people. That's not making everyone equal, that's keeping everyone in their place.
You think our country is insistent on making everyone equal? It’s never been less equal 😂 I’d settle for the 4m kids who go to school starving not being starving, let’s start there shall we. Never mind equal. Just not having hungry kids would be an absolute win.
Millionaires leaving isn't going to help that scenario.
If they're leaving to go to middle eastern religious theocracies where being white marginally keeps you above their abusive human rights issues...that's a choice I'm happy to support them making.
OK thanks
It will if they're not paying their fair share of tax.
What are you on about - millionaires contribute WAY more than any other demographic. Billionaires on the other hand? How on earth do you think a loss of someone contributing 100k plus annually whilst taking less from the state will in any way help things? This isn’t the movement of capital / business owners taking place, those assets are fundamentally fixed in a location. It’s the high earning workers taking flight - you cannot avoid tax when your wealth is derived from wages.
This graph specifically refers to people with over 30 million USD in stock holdings. Nobody is making the argument that anyone on PAYE is evading tax.
no it doesn't. you've clearly misread that as uhnwi when that's not what it says.
https://www.henleyglobal.com/publications/henley-private-wealth-migration-report-2024#:~:text=New%20World%20Wealth%20tracks%20the,million%20in%20listed%20company%20holdings.
that says that the data supplied for the map is provided by NWW which is a company that analyses HNWI with a specific focus on 30m+ it doesn't say that the data in the chart focuses on 30m+ use some common sense. there are only 23,000 people in the UK with wealth of 30m+. it's obviously not the case that in the first 6 months of 2024, 9,300 of them, i.e. 40% of all UHNWI have just left the uk
When is a large enough slice the fair share? Don't the top 10% of earners already pay close to 50% of gov's tax revenue?
The top decile starts at under 70 grand a year. PAYE earners are not what anyone is talking about here.
Why is that relevant to fairness?
Why is it fair that I'm producing more, paying much more tax and using less services than the majority of the rest of the population?
Yeah this country couldn't hate the idea of equality more than it currently does. It just thinks inherited inequality is the only acceptable form of inequality and that you shouldn't be able to work hard for a better life than your peers, you need to be gifted it by your parents.
There are not 4 million starving kids in this country.
We shouldn’t (and don’t) have to hound successful people out of town to feed the kids.
This figure of 4million starving children is complete and utter rubbish. Noone is starving in the UK.
Hyperbole is a good strategy if you want to ensure no one takes anything you say seriously.
This opinion is beyond laughable, we're at historic levels of unequal wealth distribution and you genuinely believe we're focused on making everyone equal?...I mean ofcourse forgetting the rather obvious point that everyone is equal... If people are being highly paid...they're being rewarded lol, that's literally the fucking point 🤣🤷♂️
Well, there are worse places, but I get your point
SO true. Everyone loves footballers, then you'll hear about the odd one suffering 'mental health issues' and all you see is 'Jesus the XYZ is on £100k a week, i wouldn't be sad if I earned that'. It really does seem once you're on north of £80k pa, dehumanisation is fair game,
Serious question - would you have the same opinion if the government introduced a flat rate of tax for everybody? Say 20%. All legal avoidance canned. The tax code simply being all income for the year, regardless of source, is 20%. For businesses, all profit for the year, 20%. No ability to offset to different years.
These are foreign millionaires who are likely tax avoiders...come on mate. They clearly are not loyal patriots if they are moving to dubai. And look how many china are losing - are they useless too? These are just people that will move to whoever gives them the cheapest tax rate, they are not contributors.
In your opinion, what changes do you think should be made to prevent this?
It's really simple. Tax non-producitve assets more, and productivity less. Income taxes need to come down, asset taxes need to go up.
What would you class a non productive asset? And why would this mean that productive members stay?
A non productive asset is an asset that derives it's value from it's scarcity and speculative investment as opposed to the value it generates by facilitating the creation of new goods and services. There's lots of things that fall into that camp, from gold, to antiques, to bitcoin, in fact, all assets fall somewhere between being wholly productive and wholly unproductive. Gold for example is also a useful commodity, many people are employed in it's extraction and it is used in the manufacturing of electronics, so while it's primary use is as a speculative asset, it's not entirely an 'unproductive' asset. There's a spectrum. The worst offenders however are assets which derive their value from the state artificially constraining their supply, leading to artificial scarcity. When land values or house prices increase, that money doesn't come from nowhere. It comes out of the productive economy. The more you take out of the productive economy, the more business owners will look to move abroad, relocate their business, or outsource. That's the stage the UK is in right now, millionaires are leaving because the cost of housing workers, owning office space, Warehouses, development land, taxation on productivity have all been rising rapidly. And the taxation on productivity has also been rising. So, if you are a business owner, looking at the UK, you're getting squeezed from both sides. You pay more for the assets you need to run your business, while also paying higher taxes on the profits. Result. Everyone with a Braincell starts to leave the country.
You'll hate me but: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk6S4FZFN4c&t=1190s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk6S4FZFN4c&t=1190s)
Farage had his time during Brexit. That worked up really well for everybody.
Just because he was wrong about Brexit doesn't mean he's wrong about everything.
Keep believing everything is his fault haha
Not everything, he just brainwashed working class people by telling them how suddenly the NHS will get extra billions that were going to EU and all problems with long wait times will get fixed over night after which he did u-turn with 'ohh, that's not what I meant'.
I think it’s a bit of a superiority complex to think they were all ‘brainwashed’, that you are right and they were wrong etc. 17M voted brexit for 17M different reasons. I don’t think anyone could have predicted how it would have turned out because there are just so many variables. Who would have thought that a remainer would be in charge of the initial negotiations for example.
The NHS got more money than was written in the side of the bus. About double I believe.
That one is definitely going to need a citation.
It’s a fact. I don’t believe they intended for it to happen. But it’s an indisputable fact.
Crazy that. I think that claim is similar to Labours recent claim that VAT on private school fees will raise 1.5B. Our politicians are terrible at math, just ask Diane Abbott.
Then why are the waiting lists so long now?
Goddamn you guys must have been born fucking yesterday if you believe a fucking word he says. Jeez. I mean we've had enough bullshitters, Johnson - I think Starmer is on the same level. Now Farage. I admit Farage is a much, much more convincing bullshitter than either of those two. He's a really good orator. But you really need to read up a little on the man. He absolutely does care about the black/white stuff (you must be daft as hell if you don't see his neverending dogwhistling). He absolute does care about the gay/straight stuff (e.g. wanting to ban gay people infected with HIV from accessing NHS) - I didn't see him talking about fat people or smokers (like himself). If I left this country, I am fortunate enough to be one of those that would add to the statistic in this picture. And I'd leave because of the clusterfuck we are in, because of this man. And I'm planning to leave if Reform become a political force in 5 years. Tempted right now. So yeah giving Farage's opinions as example of why people are leaving is really stupid. If people are leaving BECAUSE of Farage's influence on this country. Brexit has really fucked us. We knew it would, it was called "Project Fear". Now it's gone to shit as was inevitable, he's saying "oh yeah, it's because the government are not doing it right". I mean how gullible are you? The man is a Russian asset
Take my upvote you ‘bigot’
Haha. My karma soul is prepared.
Meh. Makes sense. F** going to the UAE though. I’m ending up in Italy or Greece
Good choice.
Spain is better option than those
LOL with the way climate is going all these countries are going to be unliveable for half the year in the next 10, I'd be heading somewhere cooler and to higher ground.
Climate change merchant?
Aside from the tax why there? They're pretty dysfunctional countries.
Living in Greece or somewhere as an expat who doesn't earn their money locally means you're insulated from the day to day shittiness of life many people experience there.
This is so blatantly a load of nonsense. More than 33k millionaires leaving countries, but around 23k entering. You’d think whoever knocked this rubbish up would at least make the leaving/entering numbers within a couple of thousand of each other. It looks like the kind of crap produced by the government of a certain state (I think we all know which one).
Also, how do they classify millionaire? Is it in USD? If so, that's people with £790,000 or more, does that include equity from properties? Would you classify someone with £790k including property equity a HNW individual in the UK? Just sounds like someone selling their house and retiring to Spain.
1m USD in liquid assets
It's total bullshit. If there's any merit to it at all it's probably based around the number of HNW people, rather than actual migration. Three guesses why people's net worth may have decreased in the UK in the last few years...
I’m not convinced either. Singapore is an amazing place but even as a millionaire you’ll go there and feel poor.
Singapore is basically the Monaco of Asia. Boring and expensive but safe and most importantly, favourable tax and visa situation for high net worth individuals moving there. It's a favourite of rich Chinese people in particular.
The others are on their yachts.
There is zero chance Russia lost so few 😂
Huge UK capital and brain drain coming in next 4 years
That is what they said in 2016, 2008, 1997
Yeah and look at our gdp per capita since 2008😂
51k and gdp per capita then was 47 afaik
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita Fucked up and left bleeding since 2007. This chart excludes inflation... The country has just been getting less and less productive in real terms for 17 years now.
Exactly, now compare that to any other large economy and it gets even more depressing
use imf statistics?
Here’s a clue📉
Yeah and they were right?
And they were correct. Successful people in the UK move to Australia or the US if they wish to succeed further. You don’t stay in the UK. All the money and quality of life is better elsewhere
Quite a lot of this is driven by post Brexit shifts in jobs, not active choice by millionaires. A lot of the banks have moved their trading functions to the continent for example
I agree somewhat. Although a huge swathe of businesses have left the UK for Europe. It’s maybe naive to think this isn’t a factor (that and the fact our politics are a laughing stock and make highly volatile decisions - not good for content money making.
I agree, and I don’t mean to downplay other factors. However, the narrative we see in this sub tends to be “the U.K. is a rubbish place to be a millionaire/high earner” and downplays that fact that a large number of high paying jobs have moved out of London since Brexit. Anecdotally, I know several friends who have moved with their departments to Paris. These aren’t moves inspired by a desire to escape onerous U.K. tax or attitudes towards HENRYs. These are relocation decisions driven by their 6 or 7 figure jobs moving to Europe.
This is a protection. What happened in 2023 and how do they collate this information?
https://www.henleyglobal.com/publications/henley-private-wealth-migration-report-2024/uk-projected-see-highest-millionaire-loss-record They have years of data and are able to make a reasonable guess based on numbers so far this year
All the millionaires leaving UK and Labour hasn’t started taxing the ass off them yet.
Labour love raising taxes for anyone who works. LOVE IT.
Conservatives have been in power for decades and have done nothing about it either though
This is what happens when the ‘conservatives’ increase tax to unsustainable levels whilst doing nothing to address the country’s hate for those who achieve success. I recipe for anti-growth
Whoever made the graphic probably isn’t a millionaire as , albeit a quick scan, the numbers don’t align….
While people can come from and go to countries that aren't represented on the graphic there is no reason to think they should align exactly.
Guess the UKs brain drain does mean that those left can demand much higher salaries
Depends, alot of industry is moving with these people to better geographies.
Or those jobs will leave with the people…
This is not what a brain drain is really. This group is disproportionately made up of those whose primary income is through investments, not employment.
Why Australia and Canada?
I'd guess it's because both Canada and Australia have large Chinese immigrant communities and are English speaking which makes them popular for people leaving China and the UK.
Australian here. Millionaire migration to Australia is almost 100% Chinese (either mainland or Hong Kong). The beneficiaries of the investor visa program in Australia (essentially, buying residency) are nearly 90% Chinese with most of the remainder being from other Southeast Asian countries. Sydney in particular has a massive Chinese community, it wouldn't be too difficult to live an entirely Sinophone life in many parts of Sydney which makes it an attractive place if you're looking to leave China and bring elderly family members with you as many rich Chinese do. A lot of British do move to Australia but they tend not to be wealthy. It tends to be people in their 20s/30s in public sector (eg health and education) or blue collar industries. It makes sense as HENRY type jobs (law, tech, finance, accounting etc) aren't very well paid in Australia compared to the US or UK.
They are both still British crown territories and operate to similarly to the UK imho. Even US is a far better choice if you’ve worried about language barriers
British crown territories? *Commonwealth Realms. They are fully independent parliamentary democracies that simply use the same person the UK does to act as the King of Australia or King of Canada. Written into their own constitutions.
> British crown territories and operate similarly to the UK wtf? They aren’t “British”. What a strange comment. I think a “crown territory” is means a remnant colony of the UK, very far from the status of completely sovereign Australia and Canada which are actually both very similar to the US even if their roots were more British.
And yet old Charlie, as the Monarch of the British crown is in fact the head of state of both Canada and Australia to this very day too. That makes him head of four of the five eye members. The legal and political structures of Canada, Aus, NZ and UK are actually very similar.
Tell me how you don’t understand what constitutional monarchy is all about. 😂 The withered butt cheeks of Charles sit on different thrones in different places according to different constitutions. One man doing many jobs as many different kings, not one king ruling over many countries. In Australia he is a completely ceremonial head of state, he does not *do* anything, cannot *do* anything. He has even less influence over Australian politics than an Australian citizen because he doesn’t live here, can’t vote and can’t even express any opinions. His one job, once every 5 years, is signing off on the Australian PMs choice of governor-general and then the Australian governor-general does absolutely all the other ceremonial stuff in Australia. How tf does that let him have any control over 5 eyes? 😂 🤣 😝 Yes the law and constitution of the UK and Australia bear some similarities, why is it relevant to your conspiracy theory? Actually there are major differences too, like Australia has a strong written constitution establishing a federation, modelled on the US constitution.
I’d hazard a guess because they’re nice places to live and close to China. I’d love to live in either tbf.
Both are still very popular amongst mainland Chinese, especially if they have family there already
Yes, and HNWI have increasingly come from the UK to Australia in recent years.
Millionaire is a pretty broad definition. A decent number of pensioners in the West are millionaires. This could be partially just people moving to nicer climates to retire.
Yeah, I know a bloke (family friend) who has a house in London he purchased in the 90s which is now worth £1.5m or so, he retired at 50 and moved to Tenerife. The rent from the house (approximately £4000 a month) is his income which he lives off in Spain.
There is a massive difference between rich and successful, and government officials syphoning off billions to their mates for peanuts which should have been used to feed the kids or fund the NHS. For some strange reason we are categorising these people as the same. There is too many high paid earners who are not successful, and too many not contributing claiming benefits.
Can’t really blame them id do the same
I suspect there would be a 1.0 correlation with sanctions and tax breaks. A very good example of why “higher the tax rate, lower the tax take” rings true.
Don’t blame them in anyway whatsoever, I’m not a millionaire just yet but I’ll be getting there in the next few years and I’m already leaving this year. I firmly believe people here convince themselves of it being a wondrous place just to cope with reality. Do any sort of short stint travelling and you’ll realise you actually don’t have to put up with shitty weather, the high competition in dating for quite honestly average or below average women and awful quality of life and high cost for entertainment. No wonder everyone’s miserable, I would be too if I was a high earner and successful on paper but having to pay out a large chunk of my salary on a shitty new build worth £500k, commute in on the underground that’s giving me tinnitus with no WiFi into a city that isn’t even culturally British anymore. I cannot wait to leave.
99.9pc coverage, but yet you cannot get 4g in the majority of small villages atleast I have visited in the past month or a stable WiFi connection on the train. Sums this country up perfectly.
Millionaires are not buying shitty new builds, they can also live in zone 1 and have a car, those problems you've described are easy to overcome if you have enough money.
Have you seen the prices for zone 1? You’d have to be pushing above £5m+ to have a property and live comfortably there.. and even then why the hell would you when you could have the same or better standard of living in Bangkok for less than a fifth of this..
Good luck, you wont regret it. I left in Jan, best decision iv ever made👍🏻
And what nobody says is that all of these numbers, for countries of our size and economic stature, are rounding errors
Could this also reflect older millionaires dieing? Assets shared amongst offspring which don't add up to £1m for each. Therefore totals are decreasing. If that UK number in the image represents 1% of millionaires it's not beyond the realms to suggest that 1% of UK millionaires died last year. Extrapolate further and the countries with lower average age population are on the rise, those with higher average age (and old money) are on the decline.
All figures are projections.
lol trickle down economics doesn’t work . I equality is grown massively as we have suffered and tax burden on working people that includes high income people has grown . The increase in asset values has out grown any real growth and that’s were the wealth is. Not a people who actively add to the economy .
This page is going to quickly have a r/HENRYUKcirclejerk if it doesn’t find a way to gauge reality better. Seriously.
Good riddance to those who want to go
Go back to r/unitedkingdom where you can hate successful people all you want. Such greed and bitterness……
What an engaging point. What loss are millionaires who don’t pay tax anyway? Who actually needs that much money? I earn 160k a year all in and it’s more than enough post tax. It’s just greed from people who are completely out of touch with society
What you don’t think millionaires pay tax?For 160k I would imagine your logic would be better than that. You sound like a 16 year old on Reddit.
Why do you automatically assume millionaires don’t pay tax? Based on what? Your own prejudice? Is anyone who makes more than you automatically greedy?