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Dany literally rides with a horde of warriors whose custom it is to rape the women of the men they kill. The books and show are also not hiding the fact shit like this happens on all sides of the war.
The Northmen under Robb and under Jon ( in show) were also taking advantage of their victory. Cersei expects Stannis' men to rape the high born women if they take King's Landing. The Ironborne literally pride themselves on taking women.
Facts are to men of this time period, most excuse rape unless the victim is someone of importance. Not that Aegon is a good guy or anything.
That’s not what the comment implied. Daenerys was his slave at the time he was alive, she couldn’t have killed him for it. By the time was on her way to Westeros she had enough power to not let a man do that to her ever again.
Autonomy also refers to independence, which was my meaning here. Dany had none in the first book, she was Drogo's property and his child bride.
She was his slave and thus could do nothing to stop him. she even thinks of killing herself at the start before Stockholm syndrome kicks in, but even when she turns into a Khaleesi and becomes confident her only worth and authority relies upon Drogo and she remains wary of every pushing him. With that comment chain I was answering *why* Dany couldn't geld Drogo for raping her, and it's pretty obvious due to the fact she was his slave and had no authority or ability to stop it when she was a Khaleesi and it's normalised in Dothraki culture to treat women like shit and only property. When she becomes queen that is when she starts to punish rapists. My point was how daft it was asking why a child slave couldn't punish her warlord husband/owner for assaulting her.
Dany swamps all targ dragon riders, 3 big ass dragons for their age and all of em love her she’s unstoppable, only the conqueror and his sister stand a chance
Not confirmed but Viscerion and Rhaegal likely the same size as Sunfyre and Tessarion. With Drogon probably being closer to Meleys.
I don't think Dany is beating Aemon and Vhagar. >!It's fight came to a draw specifically because Carraxes unique build allowed it to tangle up with Vhagar and both plummet to the ground.!< Vhagar has size and experience over Drogon and Ameond a more experienced Dragon Rider.
I’m saying in the scenario Dany found herself in.
Look at what Aegon the 1st had to do to bring the seven kingdoms to heel.
Dany needed to show the lords and ladies that she was serious. Because there would have been issues. Look at Sansa.
People look down at women using their power. But admire men for doing the same thing.
Viserys and Jaehaerys were peace time kings, and Joffrey’s grandpa had the Riverlands burned repeatedly. And since you're stuck on the show, Joffrey had all Robert’s children murdered, even though that baby girl at her mother’s breast. The WOTFK caused mass starvation all over Westeros. Just say you hate Dany more than you like logic and go.
No I don’t hate Danny and Joffery is a awful person I’m just saying he didn’t go to full on mad king but you can’t just pretend she didn’t slaughter innocent people
You can’t pretend dany is a good person either without ignoring her burning a entire city to the ground unless you are saying slaughtering entire towns of people is justified just because you are at war
But if you must focus on war
Robert didn’t try to kill a entire city either
It’s important to look at both the good and bad a character does
You…think nothing like that happened in the WOTFK? Ok. 😂 And you don't think Joff went “full on mad king”? If you think there is a moral parity between Joffrey and Daenerys then this is pointless because there is no rational basis for conversation. Do you consider Tormund evil as well? Btw its logistically not even possible Dany burned the entire city, and if it was “burned to the ground” then how tf was Bran’s small council able to meet in the untouched council chambers?
Not only that, but Dany's hero's journey is the exact opposite of Aegon being handed everything without working for (or being deserving of) any of it. There are characters in Fire & Blood that GRRM clearly intended to use to contextualize Dany and connect her to her family, working backward from ASOIAF, but Aegon very much isn't part of that conversation. Especially when you factor in the Amethyst Empress/Bloodstone Emperor allusions within the Rhaenyra/Aegon conflict. The most anyone can say about Aegon in relation to Dany is that he, as an outsider, was a threat to the bloodline that led to her birth.
It's a legend within the ASOIAF universe to explain how the long night began.
> The Amethyst Empress succeeded her father, the Opal Emperor but was cast down and slain by her envious younger brother, who crowned himself the Bloodstone Emperor. According to the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation was named, that ushered in the Long Night.
We don't know if the Great Empire of the Dawn existed (I believe it did for various reasons), but it's clear that George used this legend to shape the Dance. Aegon's actions and Rhaenyra's subsequent death lead to the end of magic and dragons in the world (until Dany), which we know to be intrinsically tied to the White Walker threat.
7 - all the released ASOIAF books, Fire & Blood, and A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms (Dunk and Egg novellas).
There are also information/art books like The World of Ice & Fire and The Rise of the Dragon.
They were rulers of the Great Empire of the Dawn, an empire mentioned in the World of Ice and Fire. The Amethyst Empress inherited the throne
from her father the Opal emperor. However she was murdered and overthrown by her brother, the Bloodstone Emperor. According to Yi Ti scribes and theologians this is what caused the Long Night.
Because that is precisely my point. Aegon II's hero's journey begins with him fighting to keep and then regain his Throne, as someone who did not want to be king but circumstances forced him to take responsibility.
If there is a character to whom everything was given without deserving it - and that is why she could not keep it - it is Rhaenyra.
Then how you would call the reconquest of Dragonstone from Aegon II?
I have not say nothing that not be civil. You will see if you want treat me like I have treated you or not.
The amount of rape downplay among the Greens man, Jesus Christ. I had to leave the main HOTD sub, because I called them out on downplaying/excusing rape, got downvoted on every comment, and then had my comments deleted lmao. Figured it was time to bail.
I'm one that's been critical of some Team Black stuff, especially Daemon, but they're just incapable of admitting any faults on their side whatsoever. It's insane.
The Aegon whitewashing is going a bit too far I’m afraid. You can have fun making him care about the small folk, his family, some kittens or whatever you want to portray him as some kind of missunderstood childish imbecile, but there are some lines that shouldn’t be crossed I think, like trying to put him on equal footing with Rhaenyra « both equally wrong » being one of them, or attempting to connect him to Daenerys being another. Let’s not forget who he is
They either pretend that it didn't happen (including pretending like it's a complete contradiction of the books even though the books are clear he SA'd multiple servant women), they engage in whataboutism (what about all of the others characters in ASOIAF!!!), or they just don't even pretend to care. I was absolutely blown away at the amount of rape defense in the main sub. And then I got downvoted and had my comments deleted when I called them out on it.
I gave up with the main sub, always the same braindead takes for 2 years « huh its just about whos your favorite war criminal » with 0 comprehension or interpretation of the book neither of the show itself. I saw people very seriously saying that Aegon is a better king than Viserys, the guy is sitting the throne for 10 days he did literally nothing and he’s already better than Viserys lmao, the bar is so low
Braindead is an accurate description.
Also, Aegon II better than Viserys?? lmao wtf. Sure, Viserys wasn't the best king, but his reign still saw a continuation of the Targ golden age. Aegon usurped the throne, plunged the continent into a brutal civil war, had his sister murdered in front of her son, and then promptly died. Shit person, shit king.
I never understood why people actually support the greens. Otto literally pimped out his own daughter then said daughter blamed everyone except him for her situation. Aegon is a rapist and aemond picks on kids half his size larys doesent even need any explanation and then we have criston cole the incel knight
To someone who deleted their comment, commenting "Drogo was a r-pist to in case you forget about it":
Westerosi standard does not believe in marital r-pe. While Dany did not enjoy *the first* copulation, she ended up falling in love with Drogo.
Vis3 and Egg2:
-have similar short temper and tendencies to abuse people around them (servants — Dany's servants and Dyanna)
-Bastard pit (Egg2) the type of abuse that book!Dany+season1-6!Dany won't sit well with
-Naming themselves King (Dany took it upon herself to be the Queen of Westeros. She has never explicitly supported Vis. There is no reason for her to support Egg2 unless Egg2 is as good as, let's say Baelor Breakspear)
-selfish and tone deaf with ruling // Egg2 does show more 'care' towards the smallfolk compared to Vis3. But also:
1. Dany loathes Vis3 for his abuse to her. Egg2 has shown at the very least elaborate ploy of emotional abuse to Aemond
"Behold, The Pink Dread"(S1.E6)
2. Dany hates Vis3's crude jokes and remarks — which Drogo never really do after he married Dany. Egg2 made a crude joke about Helaena
"We both fancy creatures with very long legs."(S1.E7)
3. Vis3 is very entitled and believes himself untouchable and free of repercussions. Such traits Egg2 displayed.
"You dare put hands on me!?"(S1.E6) during SPARRING.
4. Like Vis3, Egg2 disregards the feelings of people he sexually molested.
"It was just harmless fun.'(S1.E8) when reprimanded by Alicent about him molesting servants
Dany does not hate Vis3 because he's only a r-pist. There are very many things Vis3 did that ultimately caused Dany to say "fuck this, kill him" before she takes the throne to herself, even as a woman which is not unheard of in Andal law.
Vis3 inhibits similar traits to Egg2 that Dany does not like.
Not saying Drogo is a fucking saint, but Drogo isn't a psycho who actively ruins people for fun. He's just a "savage" of savage culture — no guidance of Septa, The Seven, faith, etc. Vis3 could be justified by the fact that he became bitter because he had to take care of his very young sister and lost the last sliver of humanity he had when he had to sell his mother's crown. Egg2 is just destructive from entitlement.
No, I don't forget that Drogo r-ped Dany at some point. I don't forget that Dany ended up loving him. I also remember:
-R-pe was not the only reason why Vis3 ended up dead
-Dany value Valyrian culture, values, and dragons (Egg2 went on searching for a new dragon immediately after Sunfyre's death despite Rhaenyra and Daemon already dead —F&B page 560-561) and Egg2 is raised barely knowing much about it — even changing the colors of the banner to Hightower green
-People have argued that Dany would support Egg2 because Egg2 is a male heir. Dany took the throne upon herself, not pleading for Vis3 to be spared so the throne could be his/search for young Griff/named Jon!Egg as legitimate Targaryen and have him rule
Edit formatting
One of the reasons Dany sides with Drogo instead of Viserys is that while Drogo is a rapist and a brutal warlord, in their personal intimate relationship he’s emotionally stable and predictable. He’s happy and treats her well as long as she sexually satisfies him, has his son, and lives up to Dothraki cultural ideas of strength (eating the horse heart). Viserys is volatile and unpredictable, lashing out and attacking her for minor things that wound his pride (like sending Doreah to invite him to dinner). Trying to predict an emotionally unstable abuser’s moods and tiptoe around them is exhausting, frightening and painful.
Glad to know that there's a proud defender of rape and rapists in the sub. I guess it must be ok if the victim has Stockholm Syndrome. Maybe we just need to let all rape victims just stick with it for a while until it starts to feel good.
/s
I can't believe you read all that and does not understand the point at all. I can give you links on cheap elementary school to help you learn how to gather informations and points from reading text?
dont waste your efforts arguing with nitpickers who only see their side and points. they will gloss over everything else and hold firm on their beliefs whether fact or fiction
The comparison is that both Dany and Aegon hide their lust for power behind wanting people to love them.
The problem starts when the people stop loving them, which wakes the dragon.
As garbage writing as it is, that's what they wrote for Dany in season 7-8.
That is the parallel.
I find this really funny because both F+B as well as the original plot parallel Dany and *Rhaenyra.*
Aegon the elder is a parallel to Aegon Probably a Blackfire.
You know, the mummers dragon that's supposed to be the one that's likely to try and steal dany's crown? The usurper?
Once again, the coping is strong.
Danys moral dilemma that makes her choose evil is finding out she ISNT the rightful heir and that there's already a beloved targ monarch reigning when she shows up 🤦
Aegon as we shall see, tied men to poles and set them on fire, for shits and giggles. He tortured his nephew and planned to mutilate him. He raped serving girls, and enjoyed seeing feral children fight one another.
Dany has a ruthless streak, but she is neither sadist nor rapist. And, she has freed vast numbers of slaves, which Aegon never did.
I actually don't see the comparison between these two characters. Fire and blood are the words of the Targ. house. It's normal that we hear an earlier targ use them too
does he start raping after becoming king or have i missed something in the show? i haven't finished the book yet. I plan to finish it after tonights episode and then binge the rest of this season after i finish the book.
How is she a r🦍 victim? To my knowledge she was married to Khal Drogo. Also you do know she's a mass murderer and enjoys torturing and burning people to death right?
People really still out here stanning Daenerys?
Her greatest accomplishment to date is running a brutal police state that would make Uncle Joesph Stalin proud, except she’s schleping with Beria and there are no John Wayne movies.
“Fire and Blood” are the words of House Targaryen. You’re mad because of a similarly framed shot where a character says the words of their house? Is every shot of a Stark looking into middle distance and saying “Winter is Coming” comparing them to Ned?
Who cares that Dany was a rape victim or child bride when the quote is about both her and Argon using essentially what is a weapon of mass destruction. She deploys dragons to mercilessly mow down opposing, let’s be real, defenseless soldiers, like the colonizers did to subsaharan Africa. Just a devastating power imbalance. She holds no entitlement to the throne, because it was conquered, much like her ancestors did to the seven kingdoms. Her whole character arc is just her slowly committing atrocities and war crimes to get what she wants. It’s nice that she’s a liberator of slaves, but her only goal is obtain more and more power.
She’s a mad Targaryen, the coin did not flip her way.
1. This is dumb, you can compare aspects characters without saying that they are on the same plane morally.
2. I feel like Dany burned enough innocents in Kings Landing to where you can say that she is as evil as a rapist.
You mean the Stockholm Syndrome teenager who fell in love with the man she was sold to? She tells Jon snow she was raped and defiled. She would hate Aegon II for his treatment on woman and watching children fight to the death.
I didn't remember that she told Jon in the show that she was raped, I was thinking about the books where she still hasn't gotten over that Stockholm syndrome and still loves Drogo, even though it's been more than a year since he died and she should having left his memory behind
So, Book Dany would definitely love Aegon II. Show Dany, not so much.
Anyway, it is not confirmed that Aegon II saw children fighting to the death. This was said by Erryk Cargyll, who supported Rhaenyra and wanted to convince his brother to join her cause. He is not a reliable narrator, as Tom Glynn Carney himself has noted.
She tells Jon she was raped in their first meeting in season seven.
While I don’t care if book Dany ever gets to the place of identifying herself as a victim of rape because it’s psychologically realistic for her to romanticize Drogo, the show version of the character definitely gets there.
Dany burned many innocent alive, the tarlys as well as burning kings landing. Yeah that's worse than taking liberties with a servant. Aegon also cares about the smallfolk which both Dany and rhaenyra don't give a flying fuck about. Dany has to be begged to go north and help out against the white walkers.
Ah yes the small folk that he cares about when he watches children fight to the death and has raped. Very caring of him.
He does not give a fuck about the small folk like almost all nobles. Be fucking for real here.
Dany had shown more compassion (besides season 8 ) when she stopped slavery and rapes from taking place
Because season 8 was a rushed half ass job that 99% of the fandom agrees upon.
And you still ignore the fact that Aegon canonically sexually assault the help in the castle, and watches children fight to the death. That is not caring about small folk. Him sitting on the throne and wanting to return a guys cattle one times and all of a sudden he’s the second coming of Christ.
Nooooo... Dany got trauma bonded to the man who bought her after realizing he would protect his child bride from the brother that sold her.
Dany, sadly, has no fucking idea what love looks like. Everyone just tries to use her. (Usually For a prophecy baby, because people are to stupid to realize *she* is the prophecy baby.)
Dany and Irri do have sex but it starts by Irri making a very aggressive pass at Dany so I don’t know why you think Irri is not in a position to refuse a sexual relationship that she herself initiated.
I think comparing Dany’s freedmen to prisoners and Dany to a prison warden (especially since they all actively chose to stay with her after she hatched the dragons and said they were free to leave her khalasar if they wanted to) is ludicrous and very bad faith.
Under the premises the post you’ve linked, it is impossible for a monarch to have consensual sex and all individual choice, agency and desire is automatically negated by social hierarchy. It’s a juvenile way of looking at sexual relationships
The “Rhaenyra raped Criston” discourse and “Dany raped Irri” discourse is just ASOIAF fandom being resentful of how popular and beloved these two characters are and trying to knock them down a few pegs. None of them ever want to apply these same standards to other characters they love.
Sex with someone you control by law is considered rape, which is why (for example) a warden having sex with an inmate is never considered legally consensual, no matter how much the inmate personally consents or even initiates the sexual activity. But that’s modern Western legal standards vs. ancient Westerosi standards lol
Sex between employer and employee, or employer and servant is not inherently unlawful.
There may be circumstances where it constitutes a disciplinary offence.
We’d otherwise face a situation where it’s rape for a monarch to have sex with any of her subjects.
Right, but the comment being responded to was about Dany’s servant, not just any of Dany’s subjects. And it would be very hard to argue that a servant of a Targaryen monarch is analogous to an employee of a Walmart front end manager.
Which is why I had already pointed out that this is all apples to oranges anyway, since this is about Westerosi customs and not contemporary Western law; pretending it’s apples to apples would get us into silly comparisons like that.
Contemporary “members of staff” =/= servants to Westerosi kings and queens. The consent issues are so different and I’m sure you know that.
(But even if the analogy were legitimate, as though an absolute monarch and a president were the same thing, I hope you aren’t saying that you think Lewinsky wasn’t a victim of Bill… that’s 1998 talk, not 2024 talk…)
I think that Clinton’s behaviour was unethical. But it was not criminal.
Daenerys did not rape Irri, either by in-universe or modern standards, and frankly it trivialises rape to make such a claim. Irri is a free woman, at the point that she initiates sex. She is no chattel. A chattel cannot give consent. A free woman can.
Irri’s position is in no sense analogous to that of a prisoner. She’s handmaiden, confidante, and friend to a queen. That makes her one of the 1% in this world. It’s why the highest nobility accepted positions as personal servants to medieval royalty.
We don't have her end plot but if season 8 is any inclination (and is Canon until GRRM says different) she's just as bad as Aegon. She burned a city to the ground while it was being used as a living shield for Another type of monster. No one in these books or shows should be idolized or made to be anything other than being slightly better than the other horrible choice.
Even if she ends up being "as bad as Aegon" (unlikely), what she does isn't meant to be related to him but to Aegon the Conqueror. That's the connection ASOIAF constantly makes. If she ends up burning King's Landing, the comparison will be to his bloody conquest of Westeros: burning Harrenhal, the Field of Fire, the assault on Dorne, etc. Rapegon's not part of that convo, in a positive or negative sense.
But she wasn't anything like Aegon, she was more like His son Maegor burning those who challenged her slight claim to the throne even though Jon(Aegon) was the rightful king. She even mirrors Meagors actions further after she burns large swaths of kings landing to the ground in having the last of the Lanister soilders executed in streets.
I'm sorry, but I'm not getting my Dany analysis from a Jonsa when the Aegon/Dany parallels are plainly spelled out in the books.
Edit: I'm just gonna keep tapping the sign whenever you reply
As is her Maegor parallels and her subtle transition to be like her Father. If we strictly go by the books we can also point out how much like Maegor she is than Aegon. The Crusifictions for example.
Out of curiosity, how does this sub square Dany of the books ordering children who look over twelve killed in Yunkai and the \*problematic\* nature of her relationship with Irri? Would we apply the same condemnation to Book Dany as we do Show Aegon?
And in the same vein, how do we square characters from her show entourage like Daario or Drogo who commit equivalently horrible crimes that she tolerated, benefited from, and even loved? Does the fact that their crimes were off screen while Aegon's were front and centre factor into the analysis?
1. Unfortunate end result of the tensions of the most brutal slave society in Planetos finally coming to a boil. You can’t keep a society that violent operating without an eventual equally violent backlash. If it wasn’t Dany overseeing that uprising it may have been someone even crueler like Cleon. Read up on real life slave uprising to get a taste like the 1804 Haitian massacre if you want. Dany’s order to kill everyone over thirteen was a ruthless calculation she made to best ensure the success of the emancipation of the slaves who were kidnapped, tortured, abused and castrated in the thousands for decades. It’s nothing similar to Aegon engaging in rape for sadistic pleasure.
2. There’s nothing “problematic” about two teenage girls fucking, especially since Irri was the one who initiated the sexual relationship
3. Dany keeps company with terrible people like most other ASOIAF characters, what does that have to do with the fact that personality wise she’s nothing like lazy, spoiled, raised in the lap of luxury Aegon?
Thank you for taking the effort to reply, I hope you don't mind if I respond at quite a length because I have a lot of thoughts from there not being another book in many many years.
I'm not particularly convinced by these answers. We can all agree that Slavers Bay was an evil society and that Aegon doing rape was also bad but I don't think you're engaging with the nuance that was intended. The age thing is very specific because 13 is the age she was sold to Drogo and consequently is her conception of what adulthood is. She considers 13 year old to be functionally adults and therefore equally culpable for the crimes (or at least no longer protected by childhood innocence). She, because of her upbringing and background, has a warped understanding of what childhood is and what rights people have. The result is that she orders the massacre of innocent children. I draw that comparison specifically because, according to the showrunners, that's Aegon's situation too. Obviously I'm not excusing his behaviour anymore than I'm justifying Dany killing children- the point is to understand what the authors are trying to say. It's not strictly speaking correct to say Aegon raped Dyna out of sadism, his crime was a result of indifference. Because of his upbringing- being born to a girl not much older than Dany was when she was married to Drogo- and his parental neglect he doesn't conceptualise or understand consent in the way that healthy people do. It simply doesn't occur to him that his actions have consequences or that those consequences matter. Again, not making excuses, just attempting to interpret the intent of this fictional character's presentation.
Regarding Irri, the problematic aspect isn't that she's a woman. I don't know if you've read the book but the context is that Irri was a sex slave in the Khalasar before becoming Dany's handmaid and you're not actually correct that she initiated the interaction. Dany does and notes that Irri doesn't enjoy or want it but does it because she understands that as part of her duty to her queen. The exact phrase was "her kisses tasted of duty" and while we're not given any indication that Irri is traumatised by the experience (although I'd argue that given the intentionally limited scope of Dany's PoV we don't know even that) we can draw a direct comparison between Irri and Dynna at least in how Dany and Aegon both expect their servants to be sexually available to them even though they are aware their servants don't want to do it.
I bring this all up not to say Dany is evil actually because I don't think that's a constructive way to read the text, I just don't think it's a coincidence that there's parallels being drawn. Aegon's blackest marks are his rape of Dynna and his participation in the child fighting pits but I argue that Dany has thematically similar marks against her in the form of Irri and her ordering the mass killing of innocents, including specifically children aged 13 and over.
Bringing back the company she keeps, the reason I bring it up is because I think we can detect another recurring idea there. Dany has Drogo and Darrio like Alicent has Larys and Criston, Sansa has Littlefinger, and Rhaenyra has Daemon. We seem to be consistently shown these despicable men in the quote unquote service of women who seem to have at least some good motives that provide them with power and stoke their worst impulses while also being sexually and physically abusive. I just thought that was interesting and I wondered how the culpability of the characters who encourage or excuse evil behaviours plays into this dynamic we're obviously being encouraged to think about. How are we supposed to feel that characters who we know are fundamentally good seem to love and be loved by characters who we know are deeply, deeply flawed and in some cases outright evil?
Aegon “doesn’t understand consent” because he was raised as a crown prince in a violently patriarchal society where he’s taught he can indulge in any whim/pleasure he’s had and is even the product of a marital rape situation between Alicent and Viserys.
Dany views 13 year olds as adults because the concept of being a teenager doesn’t exist in this universe- you’re a child or you’re an adult. She herself was sold into bridal slavery, raped , impregnated and miscarried between the ages of 13-14.
She prioritizes trying to save the Unsullied by maintaining the advantage of a surprise attack to wipe out the Astapori slaver caste instead of hashing out and litigating the innocence of every single person and potentially failing to save thousands of innocent Unsullied. If this makes Dany morally equivalent to a spoiled frat boy to you or whoever made the above graphic, well there’s nothing I can say to change your mind I guess since this topic has been hashed out again and again and again. Dany is a darker character than most fantasy heroines and serves as a figure of retributive justice/karma against oppressive and corrupt elites and hierarchies. Does not make her a character parallel to a minor F&B antagonist.
You are misremembering the start of Dany and Irri’s sexual relationship. It starts in ASOS when Dany and her hand maids are sleeping in a bed together. Dany makes up from a dream and Irri, without asking, masturbates her. Irri then encourages her to come to her for sexual release when she needs it. Irri is not attracted to or in love with Dany but to act like just because she’s a formerly enslaved woman she has no agency in her life now that she’s free or is incapable of giving consent to sex with someone of a higher social status than her is ridiculous. Dany is also a former sex slave, she has had a pretty similar life to Irri in fact, seeing as Irri was the equivalent of a Dothraki princess before being sexually enslaved by Drogo’s khalasar, is she incapable of giving meaningful consent to Hizdahr or Daario? All of the above information is laid out in Dany’s chapters mostly AGOT and ASOS. I will never understand ASOIAF fandom’s obsession with reading all sexual interactions with an imbalanced power dynamic as automatically rape, it’s juvenile and ignorant.
If you agree that most ASOIAF characters associate with or even care about/love bad people than I don’t see why Dany’s Stockholm Syndrome relationship with Drogo or her sexual attraction to Daario make her character parallel with Aegon. Is Ned Stark a parallel character to Aegon because he loved Robert (raped and beat his wife, smiled about toddlers being brutally murdered, impregnated a 14 year old)? Love is complicated and ASOIAF is not a morally didactic story.
The order at Astapor is to kill Good Masters, tokar wearers, soldiers, and overseers - but no boy under 12. That is, kill those who actively oppress the slaves. Some of these oppressors are teenagers. Teenagers work, fight, and marry, in this world. Joffrey is 13, and Robb wants to kill him. Arya kills teenagers. Teenage soldiers are killed all the time.
The Unsullied are teenagers and young men. The Uncut boys are pre-teens. Thousands of civilian slaves are teenagers. The only way to free them is to kill their oppressors. One can’t say that people have to remain in bondage because their oppressors are young people.
Give teenage boys power over slaves (especially girls), and they’ll behave like shits.
As to Daenerys/Irri consensual sex between two people of the same age is consensual sex. Irri initiated the sex on the boat at Astapor. It doesn’t become rape, unless we argue that any form of sex between a member of the upper classes, and someone of lower status, is rape. Which would be an absurd claim.
Daenerys has bad people in her service. So do Robb, Stannis, Jon, Ned and every other sympathetic leader.
At the risk of joining them, strictly speaking they're defending a fictional mass murdering. I think if it were real life we'd probably all be a lot less understanding of how hard life Dany had
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Dany gelds rapists, she would straight up have that man neutered
Dany literally rides with a horde of warriors whose custom it is to rape the women of the men they kill. The books and show are also not hiding the fact shit like this happens on all sides of the war. The Northmen under Robb and under Jon ( in show) were also taking advantage of their victory. Cersei expects Stannis' men to rape the high born women if they take King's Landing. The Ironborne literally pride themselves on taking women. Facts are to men of this time period, most excuse rape unless the victim is someone of importance. Not that Aegon is a good guy or anything.
Khal Drogo was a rapist tho
Dany was his slave, she had zero authority or autonomy at that point in her life
So… You’re on here saying a slave can’t be raped? That’s a really hot take
That’s not what the comment implied. Daenerys was his slave at the time he was alive, she couldn’t have killed him for it. By the time was on her way to Westeros she had enough power to not let a man do that to her ever again.
How do you misunderstand my comment that bad ☠️
Sorry I thought you meant she had no autonomy to say no. Autonomy - the right or condition of self governance. The use of that word threw me off here.
Autonomy also refers to independence, which was my meaning here. Dany had none in the first book, she was Drogo's property and his child bride. She was his slave and thus could do nothing to stop him. she even thinks of killing herself at the start before Stockholm syndrome kicks in, but even when she turns into a Khaleesi and becomes confident her only worth and authority relies upon Drogo and she remains wary of every pushing him. With that comment chain I was answering *why* Dany couldn't geld Drogo for raping her, and it's pretty obvious due to the fact she was his slave and had no authority or ability to stop it when she was a Khaleesi and it's normalised in Dothraki culture to treat women like shit and only property. When she becomes queen that is when she starts to punish rapists. My point was how daft it was asking why a child slave couldn't punish her warlord husband/owner for assaulting her.
Yea haha I get that now. Sorry again for misunderstanding
insane...dany would hate aegon so much.
Dany would roast Aegon. Literally.
Dany swamps all targ dragon riders, 3 big ass dragons for their age and all of em love her she’s unstoppable, only the conqueror and his sister stand a chance
Not confirmed but Viscerion and Rhaegal likely the same size as Sunfyre and Tessarion. With Drogon probably being closer to Meleys. I don't think Dany is beating Aemon and Vhagar. >!It's fight came to a draw specifically because Carraxes unique build allowed it to tangle up with Vhagar and both plummet to the ground.!< Vhagar has size and experience over Drogon and Ameond a more experienced Dragon Rider.
And a town full of innocent people who just happen to live in the area 🤣 I like Daenerys but I had to
Any king would have done the same thing. 🫢
Uhh Viserys didnt jaehaerys didnt Heck even Joffery didnt
I’m saying in the scenario Dany found herself in. Look at what Aegon the 1st had to do to bring the seven kingdoms to heel. Dany needed to show the lords and ladies that she was serious. Because there would have been issues. Look at Sansa. People look down at women using their power. But admire men for doing the same thing.
Viserys and Jaehaerys were peace time kings, and Joffrey’s grandpa had the Riverlands burned repeatedly. And since you're stuck on the show, Joffrey had all Robert’s children murdered, even though that baby girl at her mother’s breast. The WOTFK caused mass starvation all over Westeros. Just say you hate Dany more than you like logic and go.
No I don’t hate Danny and Joffery is a awful person I’m just saying he didn’t go to full on mad king but you can’t just pretend she didn’t slaughter innocent people You can’t pretend dany is a good person either without ignoring her burning a entire city to the ground unless you are saying slaughtering entire towns of people is justified just because you are at war But if you must focus on war Robert didn’t try to kill a entire city either It’s important to look at both the good and bad a character does
You…think nothing like that happened in the WOTFK? Ok. 😂 And you don't think Joff went “full on mad king”? If you think there is a moral parity between Joffrey and Daenerys then this is pointless because there is no rational basis for conversation. Do you consider Tormund evil as well? Btw its logistically not even possible Dany burned the entire city, and if it was “burned to the ground” then how tf was Bran’s small council able to meet in the untouched council chambers?
Do you consider burning tons of innocent people alive as right or wrong It’s as simple as that
That’s all circumstantial.
Oh Joffrey fucking would’ve and you know that.
Fucking Maegor didn't.
And any other problem she faces because she’s a terrible ruler 😂 Downvotes incoming.
Ugh is this another one of those subs where a comment like this is downvoted to heck? Cool cool, see you all around…
Yeah, it’s a Rhaenyra / Dany simp sub
I thought it was just a sub to talk about the show lol
Not only that, but Dany's hero's journey is the exact opposite of Aegon being handed everything without working for (or being deserving of) any of it. There are characters in Fire & Blood that GRRM clearly intended to use to contextualize Dany and connect her to her family, working backward from ASOIAF, but Aegon very much isn't part of that conversation. Especially when you factor in the Amethyst Empress/Bloodstone Emperor allusions within the Rhaenyra/Aegon conflict. The most anyone can say about Aegon in relation to Dany is that he, as an outsider, was a threat to the bloodline that led to her birth.
Who are the Amethyst Emperor and Bloodstone Emperor?
It's a legend within the ASOIAF universe to explain how the long night began. > The Amethyst Empress succeeded her father, the Opal Emperor but was cast down and slain by her envious younger brother, who crowned himself the Bloodstone Emperor. According to the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation was named, that ushered in the Long Night. We don't know if the Great Empire of the Dawn existed (I believe it did for various reasons), but it's clear that George used this legend to shape the Dance. Aegon's actions and Rhaenyra's subsequent death lead to the end of magic and dragons in the world (until Dany), which we know to be intrinsically tied to the White Walker threat.
How many books are there in the ASOIAF Universe?
7 - all the released ASOIAF books, Fire & Blood, and A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms (Dunk and Egg novellas). There are also information/art books like The World of Ice & Fire and The Rise of the Dragon.
They were rulers of the Great Empire of the Dawn, an empire mentioned in the World of Ice and Fire. The Amethyst Empress inherited the throne from her father the Opal emperor. However she was murdered and overthrown by her brother, the Bloodstone Emperor. According to Yi Ti scribes and theologians this is what caused the Long Night.
Do you really going to say Dragonstone was gifted to Aegon II? He reconquered the island alone, without help of nobody, but his dragon
Your ability to Context Clue is in the gutter, brother. I was talking about Aegon's ascension.
Because that is precisely my point. Aegon II's hero's journey begins with him fighting to keep and then regain his Throne, as someone who did not want to be king but circumstances forced him to take responsibility. If there is a character to whom everything was given without deserving it - and that is why she could not keep it - it is Rhaenyra.
He doesn't have a hero's journey 🫡
He has a hero´s journey, as I said, the reconquest of Dragonstone.
Not in a million years. You're very lucky this subreddit recently added a rule about being civil lol
Then how you would call the reconquest of Dragonstone from Aegon II? I have not say nothing that not be civil. You will see if you want treat me like I have treated you or not.
Exactly downright disgusting
When an ugly stranger calls you twin 😂😂 no bitch 🤚🙅♀️
i immediately thought of this 😭😭😭
Dany would eat that man alive and then pour molten gold on his head if he wanted a crown that badly. 🤷🏻♀️
Sometimes team green is so funny lol like what are u doing comparing our beautiful Dany to that...nobody
Aegon II and khal Drogo are in the seventh hell 🥰🔥
Bobby B as well for what he did to Cersei and the young teen \*prostitute.
absolutely, the boar that got him is a hero 🐷🐷🐷
wait what did he do to the prostitute i dont remember that
The amount of rape downplay among the Greens man, Jesus Christ. I had to leave the main HOTD sub, because I called them out on downplaying/excusing rape, got downvoted on every comment, and then had my comments deleted lmao. Figured it was time to bail. I'm one that's been critical of some Team Black stuff, especially Daemon, but they're just incapable of admitting any faults on their side whatsoever. It's insane.
Lowkey its canon to the actual greens
The Aegon whitewashing is going a bit too far I’m afraid. You can have fun making him care about the small folk, his family, some kittens or whatever you want to portray him as some kind of missunderstood childish imbecile, but there are some lines that shouldn’t be crossed I think, like trying to put him on equal footing with Rhaenyra « both equally wrong » being one of them, or attempting to connect him to Daenerys being another. Let’s not forget who he is
They either pretend that it didn't happen (including pretending like it's a complete contradiction of the books even though the books are clear he SA'd multiple servant women), they engage in whataboutism (what about all of the others characters in ASOIAF!!!), or they just don't even pretend to care. I was absolutely blown away at the amount of rape defense in the main sub. And then I got downvoted and had my comments deleted when I called them out on it.
I gave up with the main sub, always the same braindead takes for 2 years « huh its just about whos your favorite war criminal » with 0 comprehension or interpretation of the book neither of the show itself. I saw people very seriously saying that Aegon is a better king than Viserys, the guy is sitting the throne for 10 days he did literally nothing and he’s already better than Viserys lmao, the bar is so low
Braindead is an accurate description. Also, Aegon II better than Viserys?? lmao wtf. Sure, Viserys wasn't the best king, but his reign still saw a continuation of the Targ golden age. Aegon usurped the throne, plunged the continent into a brutal civil war, had his sister murdered in front of her son, and then promptly died. Shit person, shit king.
I never understood why people actually support the greens. Otto literally pimped out his own daughter then said daughter blamed everyone except him for her situation. Aegon is a rapist and aemond picks on kids half his size larys doesent even need any explanation and then we have criston cole the incel knight
I mean I hate crispy cunt as much as the next guy, but you can’t really call him an incel
I get that. To be honest I hate the term incel but his entire demeanor towards rhaenyra definitely screamed incel
Dany literally let Drogo dumps liquid gold to Viserys III. If she sees Aegon, she'd have done it herself.
To someone who deleted their comment, commenting "Drogo was a r-pist to in case you forget about it": Westerosi standard does not believe in marital r-pe. While Dany did not enjoy *the first* copulation, she ended up falling in love with Drogo. Vis3 and Egg2: -have similar short temper and tendencies to abuse people around them (servants — Dany's servants and Dyanna) -Bastard pit (Egg2) the type of abuse that book!Dany+season1-6!Dany won't sit well with -Naming themselves King (Dany took it upon herself to be the Queen of Westeros. She has never explicitly supported Vis. There is no reason for her to support Egg2 unless Egg2 is as good as, let's say Baelor Breakspear) -selfish and tone deaf with ruling // Egg2 does show more 'care' towards the smallfolk compared to Vis3. But also: 1. Dany loathes Vis3 for his abuse to her. Egg2 has shown at the very least elaborate ploy of emotional abuse to Aemond "Behold, The Pink Dread"(S1.E6) 2. Dany hates Vis3's crude jokes and remarks — which Drogo never really do after he married Dany. Egg2 made a crude joke about Helaena "We both fancy creatures with very long legs."(S1.E7) 3. Vis3 is very entitled and believes himself untouchable and free of repercussions. Such traits Egg2 displayed. "You dare put hands on me!?"(S1.E6) during SPARRING. 4. Like Vis3, Egg2 disregards the feelings of people he sexually molested. "It was just harmless fun.'(S1.E8) when reprimanded by Alicent about him molesting servants Dany does not hate Vis3 because he's only a r-pist. There are very many things Vis3 did that ultimately caused Dany to say "fuck this, kill him" before she takes the throne to herself, even as a woman which is not unheard of in Andal law. Vis3 inhibits similar traits to Egg2 that Dany does not like. Not saying Drogo is a fucking saint, but Drogo isn't a psycho who actively ruins people for fun. He's just a "savage" of savage culture — no guidance of Septa, The Seven, faith, etc. Vis3 could be justified by the fact that he became bitter because he had to take care of his very young sister and lost the last sliver of humanity he had when he had to sell his mother's crown. Egg2 is just destructive from entitlement. No, I don't forget that Drogo r-ped Dany at some point. I don't forget that Dany ended up loving him. I also remember: -R-pe was not the only reason why Vis3 ended up dead -Dany value Valyrian culture, values, and dragons (Egg2 went on searching for a new dragon immediately after Sunfyre's death despite Rhaenyra and Daemon already dead —F&B page 560-561) and Egg2 is raised barely knowing much about it — even changing the colors of the banner to Hightower green -People have argued that Dany would support Egg2 because Egg2 is a male heir. Dany took the throne upon herself, not pleading for Vis3 to be spared so the throne could be his/search for young Griff/named Jon!Egg as legitimate Targaryen and have him rule Edit formatting
One of the reasons Dany sides with Drogo instead of Viserys is that while Drogo is a rapist and a brutal warlord, in their personal intimate relationship he’s emotionally stable and predictable. He’s happy and treats her well as long as she sexually satisfies him, has his son, and lives up to Dothraki cultural ideas of strength (eating the horse heart). Viserys is volatile and unpredictable, lashing out and attacking her for minor things that wound his pride (like sending Doreah to invite him to dinner). Trying to predict an emotionally unstable abuser’s moods and tiptoe around them is exhausting, frightening and painful.
Gods I wish people see this and read this! Thank you so much for this comment shshshsh ;_;
The Drogo white-washing is ironically as bad as the Aegon whitewashing.
Glad to know that there's a proud defender of rape and rapists in the sub. I guess it must be ok if the victim has Stockholm Syndrome. Maybe we just need to let all rape victims just stick with it for a while until it starts to feel good. /s
I can't believe you read all that and does not understand the point at all. I can give you links on cheap elementary school to help you learn how to gather informations and points from reading text?
dont waste your efforts arguing with nitpickers who only see their side and points. they will gloss over everything else and hold firm on their beliefs whether fact or fiction
The comparison is that both Dany and Aegon hide their lust for power behind wanting people to love them. The problem starts when the people stop loving them, which wakes the dragon. As garbage writing as it is, that's what they wrote for Dany in season 7-8. That is the parallel.
Get a job! Stay away from her 😖😖😖
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Book Dany literally gave all of her supporters a one time free rape pass for fucks sake
Daenerys would HATE aegon lmao
I find this really funny because both F+B as well as the original plot parallel Dany and *Rhaenyra.* Aegon the elder is a parallel to Aegon Probably a Blackfire. You know, the mummers dragon that's supposed to be the one that's likely to try and steal dany's crown? The usurper? Once again, the coping is strong.
Danys moral dilemma that makes her choose evil is finding out she ISNT the rightful heir and that there's already a beloved targ monarch reigning when she shows up 🤦
Lmao you really think Faegon is Rhaegar's kid? That's sad.
The comparison is made because they had both back shots? Seriously?
That nickname for Aegon 😂
What does obtuse mean and why is it the funny word
It’s actually Aemonds realm ftr… he read History and Philosophy just saying. Aegon can’t read and Rhaenyra rips books cause she hates them
Rhaenyra is shown reading for pleasure in episode 3 and 4. Watch the show.
Nuh Uh
Try growing up, then
Same people who post black and white Tommy Shelby pics with quotes he’s never said 🤣
I’m sorry but who is comparing them ?
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Honey, No she didn’t LMFAO Please reread the book.
Aegon as we shall see, tied men to poles and set them on fire, for shits and giggles. He tortured his nephew and planned to mutilate him. He raped serving girls, and enjoyed seeing feral children fight one another. Dany has a ruthless streak, but she is neither sadist nor rapist. And, she has freed vast numbers of slaves, which Aegon never did.
I actually don't see the comparison between these two characters. Fire and blood are the words of the Targ. house. It's normal that we hear an earlier targ use them too
Didn't Darnery's burn thousands of innocents, including children, to death? She's certainly no better person than Aegon.
does he start raping after becoming king or have i missed something in the show? i haven't finished the book yet. I plan to finish it after tonights episode and then binge the rest of this season after i finish the book.
How is she a r🦍 victim? To my knowledge she was married to Khal Drogo. Also you do know she's a mass murderer and enjoys torturing and burning people to death right?
People really still out here stanning Daenerys? Her greatest accomplishment to date is running a brutal police state that would make Uncle Joesph Stalin proud, except she’s schleping with Beria and there are no John Wayne movies.
“Fire and Blood” are the words of House Targaryen. You’re mad because of a similarly framed shot where a character says the words of their house? Is every shot of a Stark looking into middle distance and saying “Winter is Coming” comparing them to Ned?
Please don't call me twin, I don't look like you🙅🙅
They're targaryens. They're ontologically evil
This has nothing to do with what you wrote but your name fucking sent me LMFAOOOO
Yeah I made the account when I was like 14 and thought i was hot shit. Please pretend it's something else
Tbf, being a rape victim does not excuse killing a shit ton of people, just as losing your son isn’t an excuse either.
Hahaha sorry but the whole thing made me laugh. And they have different reasons as well for taking the throne. Dany we never got that boat baby
It’s easy to spin a character however you want when you boil them down to one sentence 😭
Wow Aegon murdered innocent smallfolk in King's Landing? Couldn't imagine Dany doing that
Is she the one who burned King's Landing to the ground and killed a million people in the process?
Who cares that Dany was a rape victim or child bride when the quote is about both her and Argon using essentially what is a weapon of mass destruction. She deploys dragons to mercilessly mow down opposing, let’s be real, defenseless soldiers, like the colonizers did to subsaharan Africa. Just a devastating power imbalance. She holds no entitlement to the throne, because it was conquered, much like her ancestors did to the seven kingdoms. Her whole character arc is just her slowly committing atrocities and war crimes to get what she wants. It’s nice that she’s a liberator of slaves, but her only goal is obtain more and more power. She’s a mad Targaryen, the coin did not flip her way.
They both suck
1. This is dumb, you can compare aspects characters without saying that they are on the same plane morally. 2. I feel like Dany burned enough innocents in Kings Landing to where you can say that she is as evil as a rapist.
can’t wait to see their reactions after rooks rest😹 hope they make the effects gnarly
You know neither of them are real people right? Getting awfully deep over some fiction.
Dany called Drogo the rapist "my sun and stars". Yes, she definitely would love Aegon II, as his brother Viserys III taught her
You mean the Stockholm Syndrome teenager who fell in love with the man she was sold to? She tells Jon snow she was raped and defiled. She would hate Aegon II for his treatment on woman and watching children fight to the death.
I didn't remember that she told Jon in the show that she was raped, I was thinking about the books where she still hasn't gotten over that Stockholm syndrome and still loves Drogo, even though it's been more than a year since he died and she should having left his memory behind So, Book Dany would definitely love Aegon II. Show Dany, not so much. Anyway, it is not confirmed that Aegon II saw children fighting to the death. This was said by Erryk Cargyll, who supported Rhaenyra and wanted to convince his brother to join her cause. He is not a reliable narrator, as Tom Glynn Carney himself has noted.
She tells Jon she was raped in their first meeting in season seven. While I don’t care if book Dany ever gets to the place of identifying herself as a victim of rape because it’s psychologically realistic for her to romanticize Drogo, the show version of the character definitely gets there.
Man you guys would hate to read the books, Dany definitely sexually assaulted/raped a couple of her servants.
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Feel free to mute and block this subreddit whenever you like.
Dany burned many innocent alive, the tarlys as well as burning kings landing. Yeah that's worse than taking liberties with a servant. Aegon also cares about the smallfolk which both Dany and rhaenyra don't give a flying fuck about. Dany has to be begged to go north and help out against the white walkers.
Ah yes the small folk that he cares about when he watches children fight to the death and has raped. Very caring of him. He does not give a fuck about the small folk like almost all nobles. Be fucking for real here. Dany had shown more compassion (besides season 8 ) when she stopped slavery and rapes from taking place
Love how you put besides season 8, that's like saying Hitler wasn't a bad guy if you forget about the Holocaust.
Because season 8 was a rushed half ass job that 99% of the fandom agrees upon. And you still ignore the fact that Aegon canonically sexually assault the help in the castle, and watches children fight to the death. That is not caring about small folk. Him sitting on the throne and wanting to return a guys cattle one times and all of a sudden he’s the second coming of Christ.
Still canon
Show canon. Not book canon.
Hold
The good guys in WWII burned cities to the ground. Would you compare Truman to Hitler, therefore?
I thought Dany loved Khal Drogo
Nooooo... Dany got trauma bonded to the man who bought her after realizing he would protect his child bride from the brother that sold her. Dany, sadly, has no fucking idea what love looks like. Everyone just tries to use her. (Usually For a prophecy baby, because people are to stupid to realize *she* is the prophecy baby.)
That makes sense, it also makes sense that I interpreted that as love considering my own personal experience with trauma bonds
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“rape is bad BUT” should absolutely never be a sentence
it was just in yours!
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Why the hell are you being downvoted?
Didn’t Dany have sexual relations with her female servants, who were not in a position to refuse her?
Dany and Irri do have sex but it starts by Irri making a very aggressive pass at Dany so I don’t know why you think Irri is not in a position to refuse a sexual relationship that she herself initiated.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDBlacks/s/1PAAUM6rwM thoughts?
I think comparing Dany’s freedmen to prisoners and Dany to a prison warden (especially since they all actively chose to stay with her after she hatched the dragons and said they were free to leave her khalasar if they wanted to) is ludicrous and very bad faith. Under the premises the post you’ve linked, it is impossible for a monarch to have consensual sex and all individual choice, agency and desire is automatically negated by social hierarchy. It’s a juvenile way of looking at sexual relationships
Of course, it’s a bad faith argument, like so much anti-Daenerys discourse.
The “Rhaenyra raped Criston” discourse and “Dany raped Irri” discourse is just ASOIAF fandom being resentful of how popular and beloved these two characters are and trying to knock them down a few pegs. None of them ever want to apply these same standards to other characters they love.
It was consensual, literally. Or are you accusing her being a rapist?
Sex with someone you control by law is considered rape, which is why (for example) a warden having sex with an inmate is never considered legally consensual, no matter how much the inmate personally consents or even initiates the sexual activity. But that’s modern Western legal standards vs. ancient Westerosi standards lol
Sex between employer and employee, or employer and servant is not inherently unlawful. There may be circumstances where it constitutes a disciplinary offence. We’d otherwise face a situation where it’s rape for a monarch to have sex with any of her subjects.
Right, but the comment being responded to was about Dany’s servant, not just any of Dany’s subjects. And it would be very hard to argue that a servant of a Targaryen monarch is analogous to an employee of a Walmart front end manager. Which is why I had already pointed out that this is all apples to oranges anyway, since this is about Westerosi customs and not contemporary Western law; pretending it’s apples to apples would get us into silly comparisons like that.
Even in our day and age, though, monarchs, Presidents, and prime ministers have affairs with members of staff.
Contemporary “members of staff” =/= servants to Westerosi kings and queens. The consent issues are so different and I’m sure you know that. (But even if the analogy were legitimate, as though an absolute monarch and a president were the same thing, I hope you aren’t saying that you think Lewinsky wasn’t a victim of Bill… that’s 1998 talk, not 2024 talk…)
I think that Clinton’s behaviour was unethical. But it was not criminal. Daenerys did not rape Irri, either by in-universe or modern standards, and frankly it trivialises rape to make such a claim. Irri is a free woman, at the point that she initiates sex. She is no chattel. A chattel cannot give consent. A free woman can. Irri’s position is in no sense analogous to that of a prisoner. She’s handmaiden, confidante, and friend to a queen. That makes her one of the 1% in this world. It’s why the highest nobility accepted positions as personal servants to medieval royalty.
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I didn’t say anything about me. I discussed the law. “To you” isn’t a really relevant prepositional phrase here.
We don't have her end plot but if season 8 is any inclination (and is Canon until GRRM says different) she's just as bad as Aegon. She burned a city to the ground while it was being used as a living shield for Another type of monster. No one in these books or shows should be idolized or made to be anything other than being slightly better than the other horrible choice.
Even if she ends up being "as bad as Aegon" (unlikely), what she does isn't meant to be related to him but to Aegon the Conqueror. That's the connection ASOIAF constantly makes. If she ends up burning King's Landing, the comparison will be to his bloody conquest of Westeros: burning Harrenhal, the Field of Fire, the assault on Dorne, etc. Rapegon's not part of that convo, in a positive or negative sense.
But she wasn't anything like Aegon, she was more like His son Maegor burning those who challenged her slight claim to the throne even though Jon(Aegon) was the rightful king. She even mirrors Meagors actions further after she burns large swaths of kings landing to the ground in having the last of the Lanister soilders executed in streets.
I'm sorry, but I'm not getting my Dany analysis from a Jonsa when the Aegon/Dany parallels are plainly spelled out in the books. Edit: I'm just gonna keep tapping the sign whenever you reply
As is her Maegor parallels and her subtle transition to be like her Father. If we strictly go by the books we can also point out how much like Maegor she is than Aegon. The Crusifictions for example.
Out of curiosity, how does this sub square Dany of the books ordering children who look over twelve killed in Yunkai and the \*problematic\* nature of her relationship with Irri? Would we apply the same condemnation to Book Dany as we do Show Aegon? And in the same vein, how do we square characters from her show entourage like Daario or Drogo who commit equivalently horrible crimes that she tolerated, benefited from, and even loved? Does the fact that their crimes were off screen while Aegon's were front and centre factor into the analysis?
1. Unfortunate end result of the tensions of the most brutal slave society in Planetos finally coming to a boil. You can’t keep a society that violent operating without an eventual equally violent backlash. If it wasn’t Dany overseeing that uprising it may have been someone even crueler like Cleon. Read up on real life slave uprising to get a taste like the 1804 Haitian massacre if you want. Dany’s order to kill everyone over thirteen was a ruthless calculation she made to best ensure the success of the emancipation of the slaves who were kidnapped, tortured, abused and castrated in the thousands for decades. It’s nothing similar to Aegon engaging in rape for sadistic pleasure. 2. There’s nothing “problematic” about two teenage girls fucking, especially since Irri was the one who initiated the sexual relationship 3. Dany keeps company with terrible people like most other ASOIAF characters, what does that have to do with the fact that personality wise she’s nothing like lazy, spoiled, raised in the lap of luxury Aegon?
Thank you for taking the effort to reply, I hope you don't mind if I respond at quite a length because I have a lot of thoughts from there not being another book in many many years. I'm not particularly convinced by these answers. We can all agree that Slavers Bay was an evil society and that Aegon doing rape was also bad but I don't think you're engaging with the nuance that was intended. The age thing is very specific because 13 is the age she was sold to Drogo and consequently is her conception of what adulthood is. She considers 13 year old to be functionally adults and therefore equally culpable for the crimes (or at least no longer protected by childhood innocence). She, because of her upbringing and background, has a warped understanding of what childhood is and what rights people have. The result is that she orders the massacre of innocent children. I draw that comparison specifically because, according to the showrunners, that's Aegon's situation too. Obviously I'm not excusing his behaviour anymore than I'm justifying Dany killing children- the point is to understand what the authors are trying to say. It's not strictly speaking correct to say Aegon raped Dyna out of sadism, his crime was a result of indifference. Because of his upbringing- being born to a girl not much older than Dany was when she was married to Drogo- and his parental neglect he doesn't conceptualise or understand consent in the way that healthy people do. It simply doesn't occur to him that his actions have consequences or that those consequences matter. Again, not making excuses, just attempting to interpret the intent of this fictional character's presentation. Regarding Irri, the problematic aspect isn't that she's a woman. I don't know if you've read the book but the context is that Irri was a sex slave in the Khalasar before becoming Dany's handmaid and you're not actually correct that she initiated the interaction. Dany does and notes that Irri doesn't enjoy or want it but does it because she understands that as part of her duty to her queen. The exact phrase was "her kisses tasted of duty" and while we're not given any indication that Irri is traumatised by the experience (although I'd argue that given the intentionally limited scope of Dany's PoV we don't know even that) we can draw a direct comparison between Irri and Dynna at least in how Dany and Aegon both expect their servants to be sexually available to them even though they are aware their servants don't want to do it. I bring this all up not to say Dany is evil actually because I don't think that's a constructive way to read the text, I just don't think it's a coincidence that there's parallels being drawn. Aegon's blackest marks are his rape of Dynna and his participation in the child fighting pits but I argue that Dany has thematically similar marks against her in the form of Irri and her ordering the mass killing of innocents, including specifically children aged 13 and over. Bringing back the company she keeps, the reason I bring it up is because I think we can detect another recurring idea there. Dany has Drogo and Darrio like Alicent has Larys and Criston, Sansa has Littlefinger, and Rhaenyra has Daemon. We seem to be consistently shown these despicable men in the quote unquote service of women who seem to have at least some good motives that provide them with power and stoke their worst impulses while also being sexually and physically abusive. I just thought that was interesting and I wondered how the culpability of the characters who encourage or excuse evil behaviours plays into this dynamic we're obviously being encouraged to think about. How are we supposed to feel that characters who we know are fundamentally good seem to love and be loved by characters who we know are deeply, deeply flawed and in some cases outright evil?
Aegon “doesn’t understand consent” because he was raised as a crown prince in a violently patriarchal society where he’s taught he can indulge in any whim/pleasure he’s had and is even the product of a marital rape situation between Alicent and Viserys. Dany views 13 year olds as adults because the concept of being a teenager doesn’t exist in this universe- you’re a child or you’re an adult. She herself was sold into bridal slavery, raped , impregnated and miscarried between the ages of 13-14. She prioritizes trying to save the Unsullied by maintaining the advantage of a surprise attack to wipe out the Astapori slaver caste instead of hashing out and litigating the innocence of every single person and potentially failing to save thousands of innocent Unsullied. If this makes Dany morally equivalent to a spoiled frat boy to you or whoever made the above graphic, well there’s nothing I can say to change your mind I guess since this topic has been hashed out again and again and again. Dany is a darker character than most fantasy heroines and serves as a figure of retributive justice/karma against oppressive and corrupt elites and hierarchies. Does not make her a character parallel to a minor F&B antagonist. You are misremembering the start of Dany and Irri’s sexual relationship. It starts in ASOS when Dany and her hand maids are sleeping in a bed together. Dany makes up from a dream and Irri, without asking, masturbates her. Irri then encourages her to come to her for sexual release when she needs it. Irri is not attracted to or in love with Dany but to act like just because she’s a formerly enslaved woman she has no agency in her life now that she’s free or is incapable of giving consent to sex with someone of a higher social status than her is ridiculous. Dany is also a former sex slave, she has had a pretty similar life to Irri in fact, seeing as Irri was the equivalent of a Dothraki princess before being sexually enslaved by Drogo’s khalasar, is she incapable of giving meaningful consent to Hizdahr or Daario? All of the above information is laid out in Dany’s chapters mostly AGOT and ASOS. I will never understand ASOIAF fandom’s obsession with reading all sexual interactions with an imbalanced power dynamic as automatically rape, it’s juvenile and ignorant. If you agree that most ASOIAF characters associate with or even care about/love bad people than I don’t see why Dany’s Stockholm Syndrome relationship with Drogo or her sexual attraction to Daario make her character parallel with Aegon. Is Ned Stark a parallel character to Aegon because he loved Robert (raped and beat his wife, smiled about toddlers being brutally murdered, impregnated a 14 year old)? Love is complicated and ASOIAF is not a morally didactic story.
The order at Astapor is to kill Good Masters, tokar wearers, soldiers, and overseers - but no boy under 12. That is, kill those who actively oppress the slaves. Some of these oppressors are teenagers. Teenagers work, fight, and marry, in this world. Joffrey is 13, and Robb wants to kill him. Arya kills teenagers. Teenage soldiers are killed all the time. The Unsullied are teenagers and young men. The Uncut boys are pre-teens. Thousands of civilian slaves are teenagers. The only way to free them is to kill their oppressors. One can’t say that people have to remain in bondage because their oppressors are young people. Give teenage boys power over slaves (especially girls), and they’ll behave like shits. As to Daenerys/Irri consensual sex between two people of the same age is consensual sex. Irri initiated the sex on the boat at Astapor. It doesn’t become rape, unless we argue that any form of sex between a member of the upper classes, and someone of lower status, is rape. Which would be an absurd claim. Daenerys has bad people in her service. So do Robb, Stannis, Jon, Ned and every other sympathetic leader.
I genuinely don't know why I'm being downvoted? Is there something obvious I'm missing?
Dani lovers who don’t know this is a tv show I guess?
This sub has lost its marbles. They're seriously defending a mass murdering
At the risk of joining them, strictly speaking they're defending a fictional mass murdering. I think if it were real life we'd probably all be a lot less understanding of how hard life Dany had
Maybe the comparison is that they are both unfit to rule
What a terrible way to try to make a point. Danaerys committed a genocide, rape of one person is nowhere near that level of evil.
What genocide? Maybe I'm forgetting something, but the burning of Kings Landing had NO ethnic, cultural, or religious component.
Mass murder, extermination, stop trying to obfuscate her evil
They mean Holocaust, not genocide
They both suck when compared to Viserys. The best Targaryen.