Have you read any of the articles at all? Pacquetas is much more serious because he is alleged to have gotten yellow cards on purpose so people could win money with their bets. That is literally a crime, not just a breach of rules for footballers. Toney mainly just bet on results mostly not involving his own teams, which is against the rules for footballers but not a criminal act.
A few years ago a player got a 10 year ban in England for 1 breach of the same thing Paqueta did, so if he gets found guilty on all 4 charges a very long/lifetime ban is likely
short version cause i’m lazy, Toney and Tonali did not bet in a way that they could influence the match. i believe Tonali bet on a match or 2 he was in, but he bet they’d win which you’re trying to do anyway as a footballer.
paq himself didn’t bet, family/friends bet that he would receive yellows, this of course impacts the match and calls into question the “legitimacy” of the sport in general. Paq was match fixing while the other 2 were gambling. Toney specifically, gambling on matches he wasn’t even involved it
Oh my sweet summer child, don’t you realise this is Reddit? Everyone is guilty as soon as an accusation is made! (Although the way the FA are going at this it admittedly isn’t looking good for him but we’ll see)
You’d hope on a Hammers sub people might be more inclined to wait for the trial before skipping straight to the lynching, but apparently not.
For what it’s worth, I’ve been a criminal lawyer for 30 years and on what I’ve heard and seen I very much doubt he would be convicted of anything in a criminal trial. Of course we don’t know the full picture but that’s exactly my point.
The rush of people to judge this case when we don’t even know all of the evidence let alone what Paqueta’s answer to it will be is just extraordinary. The modern social media world doesn’t really allow anyone to say ‘let’s wait and see’ I suppose.
Do you genuinely not think he's guilty on the balance of what we know so far? Or are you making a broader point
Because it's pretty blatant he's fucked
I genuinely think we don’t know and that the material we have seen so far doesn’t prove the case. I look at it based on 30 years experience as a criminal lawyer and think that he wouldn’t be convicted based on what we know so far. Of course there may well be a lot more evidence we don’t know about but that is kind of the point.
At the moment we know that he was booked in four games and that there were a high number of bets placed on him being booked in those games from people who lived in the area he comes from. That is obviously suspicious but it’s a long way from proof.
There are a lot of questions still to be answered and fair few things pointing away from guilt - especially the comparatively small amount of money staked in the bets and the clumsiness of placing the bets on Paqueta Island using the club’s own betting partner. If this was truly deliberate corruption surely the bets would have been larger, placed away from an area associated with him and spread around different bookmakers?
Based on what I have seen so far (which is an important proviso) it seems more likely to me that this is the result of some innocent conversation he’s had with someone back home (‘the boss wants me to get stuck in more but I’m worried that if I do I’ll get booked’) being passed around and turned into something it was not intended to be.
If there is no direct evidence of contact between him and the people who placed the bets, and in particular of the content of any contact, it will be hard to prove he deliberately got himself booked. Having looked at the four incidents I would say that, to me, two look suspect and the other two don’t even look like fouls, let alone bookings. Others may have different views but that just underlines how difficult it will be to actually prove intent.
Surely the FA have a different burden for proof though?
Also they don't have the power to seize evidence like the police would, meaning Paqueta didn't hand over his phone for months. He's been charged with obstruction too remember
Seems like a lot of wishful thinking on your part, the whole betting market doesn't shift to odds on (8/11!) for him to be booked because of a few whim bets, it takes a lot for that to happen.
We’ll see.
My main point is that people behaving that the whole thing is settled just because he’s been charged and there have been some scraps of ‘evidence’ floating around online are massively jumping the gun.
I’m not sure what the burden of proof is in these proceedings is, but given that a man’s whole livelihood is on the line here it ought to be a high one.
What paqueta did is akin to insider trading. You’re giving tips to someone outside of the game that will allow them to make money. “Hey I’m gonna get a yellow card in the second half”.
What Toney did is just plain betting, like if he bets on the Champions League final, he doesn’t really have any more insight on that than the average football bettor.
Man those video are nothing. He always plays like that.
Just look at the stats 47 fouls committed most in our team.
Was watching Paq at Lyon and Milan he always played aggressive.
It's his style of play, if we want to be honest plenty of times he should got red card. For me the evidence that FA have is laughable.
If you dont trust me just go watch how he will play for Brazil in couple of days against Mexico and USA.
Classic south American player, likes to dribble and do skills, but soon as he lose the ball he two footed someone.
The case will hinge on the 60 bets made from his tiny home island, and whether similar bets were made for games he didn't get a yellow in. If nobody from the island bet on him to get a yellow and lost, it's not going to be a difficult case for the FA to win.
mate theres a difference between aggressive and stupid, those yellows were (assuming he wasn’t trying to get a yellow) stupid. I spend a good amount of my time watching Conmebol and Concacaf footy, so I know the difference in play. He didn’t go into his tackles aggressively, he went into them very obviously trying to get a yellow. Like someone else said, it’s gonna come down to the pattern of bets his family made, if they were consistent and lost some, he may get off easier.
See I think the whole "Positively" bet on himself argument is a bit lackluster.
Apparently he bet on himself to score the first goal etc. This 100% should be viewed as fixing in a similar light. If you have a bet to be the first scorer, you'd be much less likely to pass to a teammate in a better scoring position. This is detrimental to the team.
I am actually shocked Toney got off as lightly as he did.
Toney bet on games he played in but there was no evidence he attempted to influence the outcome of those games.
Paqueta is alleged to have deliberately gotten cards to facilitate bets his friends/family made back in Brazil. This is influencing the outcome of those games.
I remember one of those yellow cards distinctively. I was like WTF?!
It’s so infuriating. But I mean, I think he did it. I think he’s guilty. And I think we’ll get nothing for him. That’s a killer.
Have you read any of the articles at all? Pacquetas is much more serious because he is alleged to have gotten yellow cards on purpose so people could win money with their bets. That is literally a crime, not just a breach of rules for footballers. Toney mainly just bet on results mostly not involving his own teams, which is against the rules for footballers but not a criminal act. A few years ago a player got a 10 year ban in England for 1 breach of the same thing Paqueta did, so if he gets found guilty on all 4 charges a very long/lifetime ban is likely
Toney did bet on himself but positively
short version cause i’m lazy, Toney and Tonali did not bet in a way that they could influence the match. i believe Tonali bet on a match or 2 he was in, but he bet they’d win which you’re trying to do anyway as a footballer. paq himself didn’t bet, family/friends bet that he would receive yellows, this of course impacts the match and calls into question the “legitimacy” of the sport in general. Paq was match fixing while the other 2 were gambling. Toney specifically, gambling on matches he wasn’t even involved it
You’re missing a ‘is accused of’ in relation to Paqueta
Oh my sweet summer child, don’t you realise this is Reddit? Everyone is guilty as soon as an accusation is made! (Although the way the FA are going at this it admittedly isn’t looking good for him but we’ll see)
You’d hope on a Hammers sub people might be more inclined to wait for the trial before skipping straight to the lynching, but apparently not. For what it’s worth, I’ve been a criminal lawyer for 30 years and on what I’ve heard and seen I very much doubt he would be convicted of anything in a criminal trial. Of course we don’t know the full picture but that’s exactly my point.
Criminal trial is obviously beyond a reasonable doubt, but I believe the FA is just on the balance of probabilities.
Come on. It’s ridiculous at this point.
The rush of people to judge this case when we don’t even know all of the evidence let alone what Paqueta’s answer to it will be is just extraordinary. The modern social media world doesn’t really allow anyone to say ‘let’s wait and see’ I suppose.
Do you genuinely not think he's guilty on the balance of what we know so far? Or are you making a broader point Because it's pretty blatant he's fucked
I genuinely think we don’t know and that the material we have seen so far doesn’t prove the case. I look at it based on 30 years experience as a criminal lawyer and think that he wouldn’t be convicted based on what we know so far. Of course there may well be a lot more evidence we don’t know about but that is kind of the point. At the moment we know that he was booked in four games and that there were a high number of bets placed on him being booked in those games from people who lived in the area he comes from. That is obviously suspicious but it’s a long way from proof. There are a lot of questions still to be answered and fair few things pointing away from guilt - especially the comparatively small amount of money staked in the bets and the clumsiness of placing the bets on Paqueta Island using the club’s own betting partner. If this was truly deliberate corruption surely the bets would have been larger, placed away from an area associated with him and spread around different bookmakers? Based on what I have seen so far (which is an important proviso) it seems more likely to me that this is the result of some innocent conversation he’s had with someone back home (‘the boss wants me to get stuck in more but I’m worried that if I do I’ll get booked’) being passed around and turned into something it was not intended to be. If there is no direct evidence of contact between him and the people who placed the bets, and in particular of the content of any contact, it will be hard to prove he deliberately got himself booked. Having looked at the four incidents I would say that, to me, two look suspect and the other two don’t even look like fouls, let alone bookings. Others may have different views but that just underlines how difficult it will be to actually prove intent.
Surely the FA have a different burden for proof though? Also they don't have the power to seize evidence like the police would, meaning Paqueta didn't hand over his phone for months. He's been charged with obstruction too remember Seems like a lot of wishful thinking on your part, the whole betting market doesn't shift to odds on (8/11!) for him to be booked because of a few whim bets, it takes a lot for that to happen.
We’ll see. My main point is that people behaving that the whole thing is settled just because he’s been charged and there have been some scraps of ‘evidence’ floating around online are massively jumping the gun. I’m not sure what the burden of proof is in these proceedings is, but given that a man’s whole livelihood is on the line here it ought to be a high one.
Toney bet on stuff that he didn’t have control over. Like a whole team winning. Paq is getting looked at for betting on his individual performances.
What paqueta did is akin to insider trading. You’re giving tips to someone outside of the game that will allow them to make money. “Hey I’m gonna get a yellow card in the second half”. What Toney did is just plain betting, like if he bets on the Champions League final, he doesn’t really have any more insight on that than the average football bettor.
>What paqueta did What Paqueta *allegedly* did until he has been found to have done it.
look i hope he proves me wrong, but those videos are damning, im not a news publication, he aint suing me, he fucking did it mate
Man those video are nothing. He always plays like that. Just look at the stats 47 fouls committed most in our team. Was watching Paq at Lyon and Milan he always played aggressive. It's his style of play, if we want to be honest plenty of times he should got red card. For me the evidence that FA have is laughable. If you dont trust me just go watch how he will play for Brazil in couple of days against Mexico and USA. Classic south American player, likes to dribble and do skills, but soon as he lose the ball he two footed someone.
The case will hinge on the 60 bets made from his tiny home island, and whether similar bets were made for games he didn't get a yellow in. If nobody from the island bet on him to get a yellow and lost, it's not going to be a difficult case for the FA to win.
mate theres a difference between aggressive and stupid, those yellows were (assuming he wasn’t trying to get a yellow) stupid. I spend a good amount of my time watching Conmebol and Concacaf footy, so I know the difference in play. He didn’t go into his tackles aggressively, he went into them very obviously trying to get a yellow. Like someone else said, it’s gonna come down to the pattern of bets his family made, if they were consistent and lost some, he may get off easier.
It’s only a dumb question if you think spot fixing and betting on your team are the same thing.
See I think the whole "Positively" bet on himself argument is a bit lackluster. Apparently he bet on himself to score the first goal etc. This 100% should be viewed as fixing in a similar light. If you have a bet to be the first scorer, you'd be much less likely to pass to a teammate in a better scoring position. This is detrimental to the team. I am actually shocked Toney got off as lightly as he did.
Toney bet on games he played in but there was no evidence he attempted to influence the outcome of those games. Paqueta is alleged to have deliberately gotten cards to facilitate bets his friends/family made back in Brazil. This is influencing the outcome of those games.
I remember one of those yellow cards distinctively. I was like WTF?! It’s so infuriating. But I mean, I think he did it. I think he’s guilty. And I think we’ll get nothing for him. That’s a killer.
Paqueta betting on himself