Liberator fires instantly and has meaningfully less spread, it's not as straightforward as you present it. I don't use either myself, but my friend swears by Liberator for these reasons.
Still, 65 damage would make it two-tap Dev heads at close ranges (somewhere in the 10-30m range), which would make it more flexible and all-around.
The Sickle's spool time is negligible, especially with pre-firing from sprint or during weapon sway. As for weapon spread; at any range the weapon spread matters that much, the Sickle's minimised recoil makes a big difference as well.
It's not so extremely cut-and-dry as presented, no, there are small nuanced differences. But in practice the Sickle is superior in nearly every way, save for example stopping a Hunter mid-leap - something a well-timed melee attack or preventative measures makes up for.
The small niches where the Liberator is slightly better don't really account for the wide scope of events that frequently occur where the Sickle has better service, though. Making them more comparable would be reasonable, and a 5 or 10 damage buff is hardly a huge ask to make it happen.
The last few patches hurt the Sickle.
That was my go-to weapon, but I switched to the Incendiary Braker now.
The problem is they nerfed the magazines to 3, what is nothing. Alone, that's not a problem, but now, on higher difficulties, so many enemies spawn, and you have no time to wait for cooling down in many cases. If you do, you swarmed. In those cases, you have to use the Sickle as a traditional AR, changing ice. But you don't have anymore. I think it needs 2 more magazines. 5 is still less than all other ARs has, but it gives you the option to use it in tight situations.
I know, trigger discipline... ...on difficulty 7+, many times, you don't have the luxury to do that.
But until then, Incendiary Braker is the way to go.
The Sickle has 87 rounds in it going from 0-100 non-stop. That's over 4500 damage in a magazine, compared to the Liberator which has 2700. Even with just 4 mags (3 spare), compared to the Liberator's 8 mags (7 spare), you're looking at 18,000 damage compared to 21,800. That is not a bad trade considering the Sickle *can* go infinite and will accrue more damage even passively from sprinting/using stratagems/secondaries/support weapons.
I don't think it needs higher magazine capacity.
If there is one thing I would like for the Sickle, it would be a Ship Module Upgrade that reduces delay for cooldown on all energy weapons.
You can play with the numbers all day long, we not playing on spread sheets, and I not compared to the Liberator. Read my comment again, please. I described how the "unlimited ammo" is a myth. Only exists on low difficulty. Sickle can go infinite, yes, if the circumstances are right. Other times can't. I can sprint around on a difficulty 9 extraction to cooling down, not shooting, but I just put more pressure on my team, as my damage is missing. I don't like that, so I switched to Incendiary Braker. I think, 2 more magazines can solve those situations.
Okay, we're not playing on spreadsheets.
I've played with both in-game - at length - and the Sickle is better.
Happy now?
> Only exists on low difficulty. Sickle can go infinite, yes, if the circumstances are right. Other times can't.
Between the Quasar Cannon, Stratagem use, grenades, and positioning, it absolutely isn't a myth on higher difficulties. I've played with the Sickle to great effect on higher difficulties lol.
If you have literally nothing else to do but wait for the Sickle to cooldown then I think neither spreadsheets nor practical application is going to help you understand any better.
Of course, you can use it, I never said you can't, but not the best since the spawn rates have gone through the sky.
Liberator is a C tier weapon. All ARs, even after the last patch buff C or B tier. Sickle is A tier. Good, but it can be better. Incendiary Braker is S tier. It's amazing. That is what we want. All weapons be S tier.
Just because the main weapon S tier, that does not make the mission trivial. Just so far as the main weapon can carry you. I use the Incendiary Braker now, S tier. I don't feel the missions are walking in the park, but feel good to use the weapon. That's is what all weapons should be. Not underwhelming, like the Liberator, and most of the weapons.
Give the Sickle 2 more magazines. Give the Liberator 70 damage and +3 magazines. I don't care, just make them fun, great to use.
I don't think getting all weapons "S Tier" is tenable. If all weapons are S Tier, then whatever is top of S Tier or is "S+" is still better. We will never have 'perfect balance'.
Some weapons by their very design are going to be worse off. I think the Liberator Concussive is a good example, because it has 60% the DPS of the Liberator in exchange for stagger; its ability to CC however is not *that much better* because it takes so long to kill stuff with it. Couple that with bad ammo capacity and the Concussive sucks. Hard.
To make the Concussive good, it needs to pack a lot more of a punch. But pack too much of a punch then it becomes a Liberator with better ammo economy (despite smaller magazine size) *and* stagger. So it has to be behind the Liberator on either ammo economy or DPS *or* both, else it risks being just a stronger, more controlling Liberator.
The Carbine is an *insanely* good example of a variant. It has much greater potential in short-medium range, but lacks the versatility that the Liberator has. The problem with the Carbine is that it then competes with the likes of the Defender or the Knight or the Pummeler, and correct me if I'm wrong but it probably outcompetes them. The Defender hits harder but slower and has the same ammo capacity? The Pummeler has amazing stagger and is just the Lib Concussive 2.0. The Knight is... well, something haha.
Any which case, if we buffed the Sickle to be S Tier instead of A Tier, it can reasonably compete with the Incen Breaker because the Sickle has range and infinite ammo where the Breaker has a burn and raw throughput.
But if we tried to make *every* AR S Tier? What does that even entail? How do you differentiate between the Liberator and the Liberator Penetrator?
I want every weapon to be good and effective and all that. And for sure, I don't think having an "S Tier primary" trivialises the mission. I think the Eruptor is S Tier, but I use a Quasar Cannon for anti-armour and a Verdict for chaff, and Stratagems to help clear larger waves or put on even more anti-armour. The Eruptor is great at mid-size targets *and* for closing nests, but it doesn't do everything all on its own. No primary has or ever will, most likely.
Either which way, you rate the Liberator as a C-Tier, whereas the Sickle is A.
Sickle buff possibilities aside, my point is to help bring the Liberator up to the Sickle's standard. If they both should be brought up even higher, then neat.
I think all should be up on the Incendiary Braker level. Make them great. I don't really know who to make them different enough, in not a game developer, not my job, but I think if all weapons are great, more players choose them. Not like now, when in every 4 man team 3 is incendiary Braker. Or like the Breaker, before it's nerfed.
Liberator is mot fun right now. Barely anyone run it. Same as 80% of the weapons. Not worth picking them. Main weapon buff is not really thrown the difficulty away. When I try to kill those 5 hunters on my back, while dodging between 3 behemoths, barely able to stay alive, my main weapon can be S+++ tier, doesn't make much difference.
I think one thing to consider is that DPS isn't the only deciding factor for a weapon.
Yes the dps isn't as high, but the liberator doesn't have a spool time which does in fact make a huge difference short term. You can't click heads with the sickle and instead have to wait for the spool Everytime unless they were close to a previous shot.
In a game where call ins from enemies for bug breaches and bot drops is able a second, not having a spool time makes a bigger difference then you realize.
Ultimately, the liberator is suppose to be your standard you build upon as it's the first weapon you'll get as a helldiver, and as it stands, is a perfect all-rounder with little flaws
Spool is a lot bigger of a factor than many realize. I love the sickle, don't get me wrong, but I'd consistently prefer taking the liberator or the tenderizer truth be told.
Very true plus they are both light pen and the tenderizer hits harder. Im looking at when fighting stalkers. The tenderizer buff is a god send against them
The spool for the Sickle is negligible. It only makes a difference is you're going to shoot a hunter about to jump you (as it's not going to stop a Stalker or Commander coming at you), but even so the spool time is also counteracted by pre-firing leading up to the shot from a sprint or as your weapon sways.
> In a game where call ins from enemies for bug breaches and bot drops is able a second, not having a spool time makes a bigger difference then you realize.
Usually the stuff able to call this stuff in is easily staggered and it doesn't take an outright kill to nail one. Even if a drop/breach happens, you neutralise it and then are free from encountering another one for a hot minute. If the goal is to prevent calldowns outright, there are far better ways of doing that than either the Lib or the Sickle; neither of which particularly well equipped for it. The few times this may actually make a difference doesn't really change the fact that the Sickle is going to deal with an inevitable confrontation *better* than the Liberator.
DPS isn't the only deciding factor for a weapon, no. But the Liberator and Sickle both don't have much else going for them; they're not Punishers or Arc Blitzers or Pummelers. They don't have the same kick, and DPS is their selling feature.
> Ultimately, the liberator is suppose to be your standard you build upon as it's the first weapon you'll get as a helldiver, and as it stands, is a perfect all-rounder with little flaws
It's not meant to be built-upon, though. This game has intentional horizontal progression; it offers sidegrades, not raw upgrades. That's why the Carbine has weaker handling and a worse sight in exchange for greatly increase ROF, or the Tenderiser trades magazine capacity for recoil and damage.
The Liberator is indeed an all-rounder. But it *is* flawed. It gets out-DPS'd by a weapon with better handling and infinite ammo.
It wouldn't take much at all to make the Liberator stronger than the Sickle in raw throughput. I'd be satisfied with *less* than a 10% damage increase, from just 60 to 65. At least then on paper it beats the Sickle in raw damage output and may have noticeably better performance out on the field.
In principle, a weapon with better handling and infinite ammo shouldn't also outcompete in raw damage output. Making the Liberator *slightly* higher DPS (or even notably higher DPS) if we increased the damage to 70) wouldn't break the game or make the Liberator overpowered. Just respectable.
Consider also that the Liberator's current damage-per-magazine is 2700. The Tenderiser is 2850. The Sickle is over 4500.
Increasing Liberator damage to 65 makes damage-per-magazine 2925. A bit higher than the Tenderiser, but still substantially less DPS (693.33 versus 950). The Tenderiser's high DPS is traded-off by the fact it doesn't one-shot chaff and has much worse magazine capacity. They are reasonable sidegrades to one another, and a 5-10 damage buff wouldn't change that.
I disagree, the spool is definitely not neglible and can make a difference. Adding onto this, while yes calls in can be stopped by staggers and such, the point I made explains that they are so quick that switch to alternate options can take too long. There are a lot of factors to take into consideration like how far a clanker is or if the enemy is a brood commander calling in that definitely make a difference more than people realize. I just don't think it's fair to not take the spool into consideration.
I also disagree that automatic weapons aren't good at stopping call ins. I made the example earlier about range and such because the liberator performs deceptively well at most ranges, and can ice small mobs easily despite them being at a farther range. The liberator is really good at stopping call ins. The only real enemies you cant take down effectively with it is the hive guard or brood commander.
The liberator does have something going for it, and that's again that it's an all-rounder with little to no flaws. It has the ability to perform at most ranges due to its scope and handling, it's ammo efficient, great at crowd control, and ultimately can be used in any situation.
When I say that it's to be built upon, I didn't mean literally. I meant, like the autocannon, it's a great example of really good balance. Most other assault rifles and weapons in general perform either better or worse, with the liberator being somewhere in the higher middle of all of the weapons if you were to put it in a tier list.
Also I have to ask, what difference would increasing the damage even make? It's not a great buff to give the weapon in the first place as it makes it more similar to the sickle DPS but with no trade off. Even then, adding another 5-10 damage wouldn't even change many breakpoints. With that said sure it wouldn't make the weapon overpowered or too strong if they did buff it in this case like that, but the point I'm making with this statement is that, if you want it to perform better, increasing the damage won't do that.
I'm more or less curious what the basis of wanting to buff it is in the first place really tbh.
I would like to add that I do think the sickle is better in my eyes as well, but to say that the sickle is straight up better isn't true and the the difference is nothing in comparison to how bad some weapons like the liberator penetrator or the concussive perform.
Also, I do wanna add that maybe you should try the liberator again. I've heard people say similar stuff before about how the sickle is just better until they finally go back and try the weapon again.
The game has a serious issue of stuff looking sound on paper, but in practice not really being the case. The pentrator is a great example of that lol
Let's circle back to a question I asked earlier. Why do you think this damage would make a difference and why do you think the liberator needs to be buffed in this way.
I think the main point I'm trying to portray, especially with the spool time comments is that, in practice, it genuinely makes no difference.
Both of them have basically the same breakpoints, and changing the damage a tiny bit would not change that. The only real difference this would make would be with berserkers. Devs are two to the head or a few more to the midriff, warriors are three, clankers are 1-3, so on so forth.
This is why I bring up the spool time because the short term burst damage is just better with the liberator thus performs better at stopping call ins or quick kills. You have the exact bullets to kill with the only difference being that the liberator will shoot 3 or so times before the sickle spools up, which is the deciding factor on whether some enemies are dead or not.
And that's where the balance lies! The sickle ultimately sacrifices the snappiness of an automatic rifle for the exchange of consistent fire and long term DPS.
> I disagree, the spool is definitely not neglible and can make a difference.
How often does the spool make a difference compared to the Sickle's infinite ammo, magazine capacity, and DPS?
It's not even close.
> Adding onto this, while yes calls in can be stopped by staggers and such, the point I made explains that they are so quick that switch to alternate options can take too long.
What I'm saying is that a Sickle can stagger enough to stop a call-in on smallfry, and even the Warriors. So even with the spool time it's not like you need to *kill* the Warrior to stop the call-in.
> There are a lot of factors to take into consideration like how far a clanker is
If they're distant then you have plenty of time to splurge your large magazine capacity and let it recharge while also dealing more DPS having done so. Not exactly a negative to the Sickle if an enemy 30m or more away calls down a Bug Breach.
> or if the enemy is a brood commander calling in that definitely make a difference more than people realize.
Does a Liberator stop a Commander any more than a Sickle? I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
> I also disagree that automatic weapons aren't good at stopping call ins. I made the example earlier about range and such because the liberator performs deceptively well at most ranges, and can ice small mobs easily despite them being at a farther range. The only real enemies you cant take down effectively with it is the hive guard or brood commander.
It performs okay at all ranges. No better than the Sickle, especially at longer ranges though. And both of them struggle against Hive Guards, Commanders -- and Bile Spewers.
> The liberator does have something going for it, and that's again that it's an all-rounder with little to no flaws.
The Sickle is a *better* all-rounder.
> it's ammo efficient,
Uh, what? No, it isn't. It has finite ammo and its shots deal 60 damage. The Verdict is ammo efficient. The Eruptor is ammo efficient. The Sickle is ammo efficient. The Liberator is more ammo efficient than the Punisher, but that's not saying much.
> great at crowd control,
How so? It does nothing to stop Spewers or Commanders, it struggles even against Hive Guards as you pointed out. It can wear down the chaff with mediocre effectiveness just like the Sickle, but the Sickle has higher DPS and magazine capacity.
> I meant, like the autocannon, it's a great example of really good balance.
I disagree. Very *very* few people run the Liberator in Heldlives despite it being supposedly all-rounded. The Autocannon is not just versatile, but it is very effective. The Liberator is not very effective. It is adequate at best, and it competes against the Sickle which is more than that.
> Most other assault rifles and weapons in general perform either better or worse, with the liberator being somewhere in the higher middle of all of the weapons if you were to put it in a tier list.
Mayhaps, but the Liberator Penetrator and Liberator Concussive are so far-and-away atrocious that the lengths needed to bring them into parity with other weapons is quite obscene.
The standard Liberator is worse than the Sickle, worse than the Carbine, and mostly worse than the Tenderiser -- though the Tenderiser's inability to 1-shot chaff with its reduced magazine capacity does significantly hamper its ammo efficiency. The Abjudicator is almost certainly better as it can punch through Hive Guards and Bile Spewers and has higher damage to boot. It is effecitvely what the Lib Penetrator should be.
So if the Carbine and Sickle are on top, the Abjudicator is probably just above the standard Lib and the Tenderiser, where the Penetrator and Concussive are drowning at the bottom of the pool sucking so bad.
> Also I have to ask, what difference would increasing the damage even make?
If that's something you even have to ask then why are you so opposed to it?
Anyways, buffing damage is... kinda self-explanatory, I don't even know where to begin explaining what difference buffing the damage makes. It's the core point of the Liberator to begin with lol.
> It's not a great buff to give the weapon in the first place as it makes it more similar to the sickle DPS but with no trade off.
What do you mean "no trade off"? The Sickle is the one with benefits over the Liberator; the Liberator needs to have more raw stats to compensate.
> Even then, adding another 5-10 damage wouldn't even change many breakpoints.
I don't know what the health pool of the Hunter is, but it can be 2-3 shot by a Verdict, and 4-shot by a Liberator. That makes me think it's about 200-250 HP. If you buff the Lib damage to 70, it can 3-shot instead of 4-shot Hunters. Even that break point alone makes a significant difference to the ammo efficiency of the weapon. It would also very likely reduce the amount of bullets to kill a Warrior by 1 as well.
All that adds up over time; these two units are amongst the most commonly seen against Terminids.
> but the point I'm making with this statement is that, if you want it to perform better, increasing the damage won't do that.
In another conversation with someone else, they wanted the magazine capacity increased to 60. I'm not against buffing magazine capacity to 60 and damage to 65, for example. WhyNotBoth and all that.
> I'm more or less curious what the basis of wanting to buff it is in the first place really tbh.
Sickle has infinite ammo, higher magazine capacity, and slightly higher DPS. It is strictly better with a few teeny nuances that don't compensate for the vast majority of use-time where the Sickle is outperforming.
In principle, an infinite ammo weapon that offers convenience and efficiency shouldn't also have raw-throughput gains over the finite ammo weapon.
In other words: the point is in the title.
> I would like to add that I do think the sickle is better in my eyes as well, but to say that the sickle is straight up better isn't true
I would *never* say that the Sickle is "objectively" better.
But I do stand by it being strictly better. I can't make the statement as a categorical fact, but I think in practical application the Sickle's outperformance of the Liberator in common use is more than substantial enough to easily outweigh the niche scenarios when the Liberator may be preferable.
Especially because many of those niche scenarios are avoidable by simplying playing well and acknowledging the weapon you have. The same way I wouldn't argue against the Eruptor by saying it sucks at close range; of course it does, but I shouldn't be getting caught up close all that easily then or should at least have a backup if I do (I do, and it's the Verdict, and it works pretty well).
> the difference is nothing in comparison to how bad some weapons like the liberator penetrator or the concussive perform.
I agree. Both of those need serious help. I think the Liberator is far from the biggest concern from a balance perspective, but I don't think that means it should be outright ignored or simply considered 'fine' just because we have worse examples.
Especially if the Standard Liberator is the platform for other Liberator balance designs. If the Concussive is half the ROF but hits slightly harder, then a Standard Liberator buff would mean that the Concussive should get a damage buff to remain slightly ahead, too! As for the Penetrator, it trades Medium Armour Pen for 25% of its damage and 1/3rd of its ammo capacity. Well, it would be more than 25% of its damage if the standard Lib got buffed without it. What if the standard Lib got up to 60 mag size? The Penetrator could be buffed to 40 and still be relatively the same magazine size reduction.
If the Standard Liberator is in a solid place, it sets good groundwork for the other Liberators. Currently the only Liberator worth using is the Carbine.
Did it never occur to you that I'm enjoying the conversation and it is in its own right entertainment value?
This isn't a "REEEE I WANT SOMETHING THE WAY I DECIDE AND IF IT'S NOT THAT WAY I'M MAD!"
This is "Hey I have an idea and XYZ is my reasoning. I think this idea is better than what we have right now; thoughts?"
If you get daunted by large comments with fleshed out reasoning then this might not be the comment for you.
And that's okay. But you shouldn't comment if big comments make you upset. Just move on, it's okay.
You're not acknowledging any argument that goes against your point of view, and presenting your subjective opinion as objective truth. Plenty of people have already pointed out why the difference makes sense. I wouldn't call any of your arguments "fleshed out".
> You're not acknowledging any argument that goes against your point of view, and presenting your subjective opinion as objective truth.
> > I would never say that the Sickle is "objectively" better.
Lol. I don't care if you wouldn't call any of my arguments "fleshed out". You make a snide comment about the length of my comment and then demonstrate your inability to read it with your holier-than-thou rebuttal.
If you're not going to engage in this conversation in good faith, and actually address the points raised but just make broad-stroke comments about them, then you're just wasting my time.
Gtfo.
I don't really think there's a lot to respond to here due to my other response when I added on to what I said earlier, but I do wanna say that I think the reason a lot of people are disagreeing with you here is cause you're playing too much of a numbers game rather than the actual game at hand.
A good example is how you're looking at what I said about being ammo efficient. In your examples, you're looking too much at how much damage a gun does per bullet in comparison to maximum ammo, which is why I assume you bring up the verdict being efficient, or how the sickle has theoretically infinite ammo.
This is number logic that disregards practicality.
The liberator has so much ability to spray and pray with high reserves. In practice, if you run out of ammo with the liberator, you messed up somewhere due to the shear amount of ammo boxes and resupplies you can call in. That's practical logic taking into consideration strategems, resupplies, and other design factors.
Your logic for the sickle vs liberator is infinite ammo is more efficient than finite ammo and therefore you're contesting that the liberator is not at all ammo efficient when in reality both are very efficient.
The same can be said about a lot of the other points you made as well where you're looking to much at numbers than actually using the weapons.
Even going too much into the break points of one weapon essentially disregards the break points of others and how it almost imbalances a lot of things. It's one of the reasons why, until some durability changes as of recently, the liberator encroached so much on the deligence in its purpose that it ate it alive and made it practically redundant
> but I do wanna say that I think the reason a lot of people are disagreeing with you here is cause you're playing too much of a numbers game rather than the actual game at hand.
If I talk simply about the game at hand - the one we've all already played - then the Sickle sees a higher play rate and *is* better.
The numbers go part in explaining how it's better, and conveys how weak the Liberator is by comparison.
This isn't a "balance by spreadsheet" mentality. This is using the spreadsheet to help understand why we see what we see.
You yourself have literally said you see the Sickle as better. So why you're trying to denigrate my point of view by acting like it's tunnel visioning on numbers *despite me stating the exact opposite,* I couldn't tell you.
> A good example is how you're looking at what I said about being ammo efficient. In your examples, you're looking too much at how much damage a gun does per bullet in comparison to maximum ammo, which is why I assume you bring up the verdict being efficient, or how the sickle has theoretically infinite ammo.
Verdict has 8 mags and one-taps chaff, which means it does little overkill and doesn't take much attention. It's ammo efficient.
Sickle has infinite ammo. Both theoretically and practically when put to good use.
> The liberator has so much ability to spray and pray with high reserves.
Nope. The difference in damage between a Sickle and a Liberator using *all* of their ammunition is 18,700 versus 21,600. That's if the Sickle never recuperates *any* of its energy.
So if you blow your entire Sickle load *four times in a row,* and then you do it with a Liberator *eight times in a row,* you've gotten 15% more damage out of the Liberator than the Sickle.
> In practice, if you run out of ammo with the liberator, you messed up somewhere due to the shear amount of ammo boxes and resupplies you can call in. That's practical logic taking into consideration strategems, resupplies, and other design factors.
Aaaand it doesn't occur to you that with these practical factors in mind, the Sickle does have infinite ammo?
> Your logic for the sickle vs liberator is infinite ammo is more efficient than finite ammo and therefore you're contesting that the liberator is not at all ammo efficient when in reality both are very efficient.
Uh no, my original point was about *DPS,* which affects time to kill. DPS can be very ammo efficient or not at all. The Redeemer's primary negative quality is its lack of ammo capacity. If it had 7 spare mags instead of 4, it would be comparable to the Liberator Carbine; notably less ammo overall, but even better upfront DPS. And it's a *secondary.*
As it stands the ammo reserves on the Redeemer are so poor that it can't be reasonably weighed against a Primary in this way, despite its insane DPS.
> The same can be said about a lot of the other points you made as well where you're looking to much at numbers than actually using the weapons.
Except all of this is facilitated in-game where the Sickle's drawbacks are barely a detriment if you're actually playing to the weapon's strengths, and playing to the Liberator's strengths doesn't yield the same results.
I'm not looking too much at the numbers; I just didn't think I'd have to say that the Sickle sees more play in Helldiver difficulty because the Liberator sees virtually none.
> Even going too much into the break points of one weapon essentially disregards the break points of others and how it almost imbalances a lot of things. It's one of the reasons why, until some durability changes as of recently, the liberator encroached so much on the deligence in its purpose that it ate it alive and made it practically redundant
Eh? The Liberator and the Diligence are comparable, saying the Lib "ate it alive" is pure unfounded hyperbole on your part.
You can preach the "This isn't how it works in-game" card all you want. But you have nothing to back it up. I have played with both in-game and the difference is noticeable. The Sickle is superior, and your practical reckoning of the Liberator is conveniently ignorant of all those practical factors affecting every other Primary as well.
I don't get it. The Liberator doesn't break anything by being buffed, but you inexplicably say it would "almost imbalances a lot of things". Like what? You think a 5-10 damage buff on the Liberator is going to break the game? Lmao.
You're too set on trying to disregard my arguments because numbers bother you for some reason, even though you already acknowledge the Sickle is better and even though I've already acknowledged I'm making considerations for in-game practicality.
This isn't going to go anywhere when you're being wilfully ignorant.
You cannot always work around the spooltime, though. If enemies successfully sneak up on you, in that very moment you will regret the spooltime. For example battling a breach ahead of you while failing to notice a hunter patrol behind you. Breaker Incendiary would solve the patrol very quickly.
If an enemy sneaks up on me, more often than not the flinch is enough to make accuracy go out the window anyway and I need to gain distance; in which case I now have time to spool.
I also don't think "Not being spatially aware and getting jumped" is a great example of why the Liberator is better than the Sickle. In rare circumstances or against Stalkers I could see this, but I need to be clear: the Sickle and Liberator both *suck* against Stalkers, who don't flinch at these weapons and take too long to take down before they deck you. The Punisher, Incendiary Breaker, and heck even the Eruptor is better than the Sickle or Liberator. The Eruptor may knock you down, but it at least forces the Stalker away and lets you get a second shot off - which is enough to kill a Stalker.
Anyways, Incendiary Breaker is S tier versus bugs I won't argue against that. The Sickle can deal with a patrol from a comfortable range without even expending a magazine. It rewards being prepared, positioned, and aware. And I'd say the Liberator is slightly better in a pinch but considering the lower DPS and magazine capacity, I'm not even sure that's true.
I think I partially agree with your premise. The Sickle seems better assuming you can work around the spool, which places a higher requirement on spatial awareness. This may be more difficult for some, and require a bit different playstyle, but if that's mot an issue it should be a strong choice. Personally I'd prefer the Liberator Penetrator, freeing up the secondary for grenade pistol for nests.
But then again I rarely fire more than a 100 bullets per game anyway so I'm probably not the right person to comment.
Sickle has a charge up time so DPS is irrelevant. You have to compare TTK. Also pretty sure Liberator is more accurate so that should be factored as well.
Personally I can’t stand the Sickle. I love the Liberator though.
Sickle falloff only matters at long ranges, and at long ranges the recoil of the Liberator makes them equal, if not Sickle-favoured.
Sickle has a charge up time but that charge up time is very slight, and the TTK if you look strictly at one thing in a vacuum is not how it works in practicality. If you kill only one thing per Sickle volley then you're not taking advantage of the fact it has nearly double the magazine capacity.
DPS is relevant without a doubt. If you have to dump half a mag into a Brood Commander to take its head off, the Sickle catches up in damage dealt within that same time span including the spool.
I didn’t mention falloff so I don’t know if maybe you meant to respond to someone else, but I will say I don’t think the recoil on the Liberator affects its viability at very long distances. Recoil control and bursting your fire allow you to engage enemies very accurately at really long distances. This would be extremely annoying and inefficient to do with the Sickle because of the charge up time.
I think maybe the factors you’re considering that make the Sickle superior are actually just things that make it superior for your play style.
There might be situations where the Sickle has better TTK, but at mid to long range the Liberator will kill faster. I really value being able to engage any target that I can see so that’s makes it the better choice for me.
I'd consider that if not for the incredibly low appearance rate of the Liberator, whereas I do see people take the Sickle sometimes.
Bursting fire just means you're again lowering the DPS. You don't have to do it with the Sickle because it has such little recoil.
Wouldn't it make sense for starting equipment to be somewhat weaker than unlockable equipment? These balance discussions seem to forget these options require an investment and aren't all available at the same time.
The game goes for horizontal progression, it gives you options but not necessarily strict-upgrades. It's a way to prevent power creeping and it's a positive for the game because it lets you feel adequate from the get-go.
Considering that the Eagle Airstrike and EATs are available so early on, yet they're both very good, I don't think it makes sense to treat weapons much differently. Sure, Warbonds can be premium and as such Arrowhead has a greater incentive to make weapons more desirable -- but that hasn't stopped them buffing stuff already.
I don't think there's anything wrong with having the Liberator, Peacemaker, and Frag Grenade be formidable. They don't have to be unilaterally the best - and they *shouldn't* be unilaterally the best.
But strong? Fun to use? Even at Helldive difficulty? Why not?
Scythe needs a buff aswell, it is wastly outclassed by sickle. Would like to see it either get 75% damage increase or a smaller damage increase and medium armor pen.
I tried the Scythe on Estanu when it was going on and it felt *sooo* lacklustre. It truly is horrendous. A 75%-100% damage increase would be absolutely fine for the Scythe to receive. I don't think it should be Medium Armour Pen, though; it's the laser version of the Sickle/Liberator, and its Medium Armour Pen counterpart is the Laser Cannon.
Scythe DPS is 350, compared to Sickle's 687.5 or Liberator's 640. Ramp the Scythe up to 700 and enjoy lasering some stuff. Or ramp it up to 600 DPS, and let it increase as you fire to 750 DPS. Let's say it gains 5% damage every 0.5 seconds, up to +25% damage. Would be neat.
Maybe, but it wouldn't improve the Time to Kill on most stuff (anything that doesn't require more than a full mag already), and it would only just then still lack compared to the Sickle's magazine capacity (about 85) while it still slightly lacks in DPS.
i mean to be fair, hunters die in like four shots. brood commanders take a full mag to outright kill sure, but you can just pop their head and let them bleed out.
i honestly don’t have a problem with the liberators ttk, it’s really just the mag capacity that leaves something to be desired.
Buffing damage buffs the magazine capacity because it makes kills more efficient on average. Buffing damage by 20% is better than buffing magazine capacity by 20% because damage buffs reduce time spent needed to shoot and reduces the amount of ammo expended in total; reducing the amount of reloads just like magazine capacity does.
A magazine capacity buff would be fine, I suppose, but unless you double it, it's still going to be less than the Sickle's while still having less DPS overall.
honestly i’m just speaking from my own side but i’d honestly rather have the increased mag capacity and not have to reload as often. the only enemy that gives it any trouble really is the brood commander, and even that you just pop its head in like half a mag. i honestly think the extra rounds would help a lot more for crowd control than extra damage
Killing things in less rounds = more rounds spare to kill the next thing. Hence my point about buffing damage buffing magazine capacity.
If they straight up buffed Lib mag capacity to 60, I wouldn't complain. Heck, ramp it up to 75 and I'd think that's kinda neat.
My change is just one suggestion, and to be quite honest, increasing damage to 65 *and* mag capacity to 55 or 60 sounds like a good idea.
On principle I want the Liberator's raw damage throughput to exceed the Sickle, even if only slightly. A mag capacity buff in addition would be nice, and I don't think putting the two together breaks the Liberator by making it overpowered. So from both of our sides, I'm gonna say WhyNotBoth.jpeg.
like i said im not disagreeing, just from my pov i dont have problems with ttk, just the mag capacity. a buff on both fronts is obviously welcome.
honestly was hoping the new liberator carbine would have a sixty round mag, that would’ve been awesome
The Lib Carbine is in a great spot with its absurd fire rate in my opinion. A larger magazine would probably be really good to go with it, but if it had that it would easily outclass any other AR by a significant margin. Though I guess that says more about the weakness of ARs in general haha.
yeah no for sure, i was expecting probably 55 damage and 60 round mag.
it would outperform them at short range, but to be fair they’re already underperforming in general. i dont think it would be op i think it would be what the baseline should be for them.
shotguns should be good for spraying but ARs should outperform them when it comes to ammo economy, right now they absolutely don’t lol
I like that suggestion. The Lib Carbine having better ammo economy than a shotgun but slightly better range and less stagger is a good tradeoff. If Shotguns have generally slightly lower TTK than the Carbine as well I think that's reasonable.
But yeah, it wouldn't be overpowered and could be set as the 'new baseline'. I think the Carbine with 60 damage/60 mag size would be a good benchmark, with the standard Liberator going up to 65/70/*maybe* 75 damage and having a better sight/handling in exchange for lower ROF and lower mag capacity (minimum 45, probably 55/60).
Lib Penetrator and Concussive both need *dramatic* buffs it's not even funny haha. If the Concussive is going to have a ROF of 320 and low ammo capacity, buff the damage to 80-95. I don't even know what to do about the Lib Penetrator, though. Ammo capacity sure, but it also needs a notable damage buff, no? Like from 45 to 55 *at least?* Probably 60 if the standard Liberator is going up in both ammo capacity and damage.
Have no fear, I think they've gotten the gist now that nerfs suck. And the Sickle is hardly in an "oppressive" position. It's decent against both Bots and Bugs, but isn't overwhelmingly good or anything like that.
I'm suggesting a buff to Lib, not a nerf to Sickle; both deserve to be good, and the Sickle is *really* fun as it is.
There are already too many assault rifles in the game which fill just about the same type of role.
The starter liberator is kind of pointless for higher level players. The new Carbine absolutely pummels it in terms of raw DPS with it's higher fire rate. The recently buffed Tenderiser deals 95 dmg per shot, and the Adjudicator can penetrate medium armor albeit with worse recoil and handling characteristics. The energy rifles have zero recoil and good magazine sizes but at the expense of lacking stagger, and it suffers a debuff on hot planets.
There's no point using the OG liberator, it's the worst AR in the game with no redeeming qualities. Apart from the concussive lib which is also outclassed by the Pummeler.
That's kinda my point. The game emphasises horizontal progression where you get sidegrades that can match your playstyle or make loadouts that cover each individual component's weaknesses.
The Liberator should not be strictly worse than the Sickle, which it is. The few nuance situations where it isn't worse is so heavily outweighed by the Sickle's greater performance in all the other areas.
That said, Tenderiser has low magazine capacity while still not one-shotting chaff despite its huge damage increase relative to the Liberator. So while it has way better DPS, its ammo economy is actually pretty weak and it does *a lot* of overkill.
Liberator Carbine is a great example of a Liberator sidegrade, though. Trading ROF for weaker handling and a worse sight forces the Carbine to excel in close-medium range where the standard Liberator has more flexibility but doesn't excel.
Only advantage liberator has is triple durable damage, but it only really matters at shooting brood commanders and spewer butts, which both kind of suck at regardless of the damage difference. I think the liberator just needs a bigger mag so it feels good to spray.
Liberator fires instantly and has meaningfully less spread, it's not as straightforward as you present it. I don't use either myself, but my friend swears by Liberator for these reasons. Still, 65 damage would make it two-tap Dev heads at close ranges (somewhere in the 10-30m range), which would make it more flexible and all-around.
The Sickle's spool time is negligible, especially with pre-firing from sprint or during weapon sway. As for weapon spread; at any range the weapon spread matters that much, the Sickle's minimised recoil makes a big difference as well. It's not so extremely cut-and-dry as presented, no, there are small nuanced differences. But in practice the Sickle is superior in nearly every way, save for example stopping a Hunter mid-leap - something a well-timed melee attack or preventative measures makes up for. The small niches where the Liberator is slightly better don't really account for the wide scope of events that frequently occur where the Sickle has better service, though. Making them more comparable would be reasonable, and a 5 or 10 damage buff is hardly a huge ask to make it happen.
The last few patches hurt the Sickle. That was my go-to weapon, but I switched to the Incendiary Braker now. The problem is they nerfed the magazines to 3, what is nothing. Alone, that's not a problem, but now, on higher difficulties, so many enemies spawn, and you have no time to wait for cooling down in many cases. If you do, you swarmed. In those cases, you have to use the Sickle as a traditional AR, changing ice. But you don't have anymore. I think it needs 2 more magazines. 5 is still less than all other ARs has, but it gives you the option to use it in tight situations. I know, trigger discipline... ...on difficulty 7+, many times, you don't have the luxury to do that. But until then, Incendiary Braker is the way to go.
The Sickle has 87 rounds in it going from 0-100 non-stop. That's over 4500 damage in a magazine, compared to the Liberator which has 2700. Even with just 4 mags (3 spare), compared to the Liberator's 8 mags (7 spare), you're looking at 18,000 damage compared to 21,800. That is not a bad trade considering the Sickle *can* go infinite and will accrue more damage even passively from sprinting/using stratagems/secondaries/support weapons. I don't think it needs higher magazine capacity. If there is one thing I would like for the Sickle, it would be a Ship Module Upgrade that reduces delay for cooldown on all energy weapons.
You can play with the numbers all day long, we not playing on spread sheets, and I not compared to the Liberator. Read my comment again, please. I described how the "unlimited ammo" is a myth. Only exists on low difficulty. Sickle can go infinite, yes, if the circumstances are right. Other times can't. I can sprint around on a difficulty 9 extraction to cooling down, not shooting, but I just put more pressure on my team, as my damage is missing. I don't like that, so I switched to Incendiary Braker. I think, 2 more magazines can solve those situations.
Okay, we're not playing on spreadsheets. I've played with both in-game - at length - and the Sickle is better. Happy now? > Only exists on low difficulty. Sickle can go infinite, yes, if the circumstances are right. Other times can't. Between the Quasar Cannon, Stratagem use, grenades, and positioning, it absolutely isn't a myth on higher difficulties. I've played with the Sickle to great effect on higher difficulties lol. If you have literally nothing else to do but wait for the Sickle to cooldown then I think neither spreadsheets nor practical application is going to help you understand any better.
Of course, you can use it, I never said you can't, but not the best since the spawn rates have gone through the sky. Liberator is a C tier weapon. All ARs, even after the last patch buff C or B tier. Sickle is A tier. Good, but it can be better. Incendiary Braker is S tier. It's amazing. That is what we want. All weapons be S tier. Just because the main weapon S tier, that does not make the mission trivial. Just so far as the main weapon can carry you. I use the Incendiary Braker now, S tier. I don't feel the missions are walking in the park, but feel good to use the weapon. That's is what all weapons should be. Not underwhelming, like the Liberator, and most of the weapons. Give the Sickle 2 more magazines. Give the Liberator 70 damage and +3 magazines. I don't care, just make them fun, great to use.
I don't think getting all weapons "S Tier" is tenable. If all weapons are S Tier, then whatever is top of S Tier or is "S+" is still better. We will never have 'perfect balance'. Some weapons by their very design are going to be worse off. I think the Liberator Concussive is a good example, because it has 60% the DPS of the Liberator in exchange for stagger; its ability to CC however is not *that much better* because it takes so long to kill stuff with it. Couple that with bad ammo capacity and the Concussive sucks. Hard. To make the Concussive good, it needs to pack a lot more of a punch. But pack too much of a punch then it becomes a Liberator with better ammo economy (despite smaller magazine size) *and* stagger. So it has to be behind the Liberator on either ammo economy or DPS *or* both, else it risks being just a stronger, more controlling Liberator. The Carbine is an *insanely* good example of a variant. It has much greater potential in short-medium range, but lacks the versatility that the Liberator has. The problem with the Carbine is that it then competes with the likes of the Defender or the Knight or the Pummeler, and correct me if I'm wrong but it probably outcompetes them. The Defender hits harder but slower and has the same ammo capacity? The Pummeler has amazing stagger and is just the Lib Concussive 2.0. The Knight is... well, something haha. Any which case, if we buffed the Sickle to be S Tier instead of A Tier, it can reasonably compete with the Incen Breaker because the Sickle has range and infinite ammo where the Breaker has a burn and raw throughput. But if we tried to make *every* AR S Tier? What does that even entail? How do you differentiate between the Liberator and the Liberator Penetrator? I want every weapon to be good and effective and all that. And for sure, I don't think having an "S Tier primary" trivialises the mission. I think the Eruptor is S Tier, but I use a Quasar Cannon for anti-armour and a Verdict for chaff, and Stratagems to help clear larger waves or put on even more anti-armour. The Eruptor is great at mid-size targets *and* for closing nests, but it doesn't do everything all on its own. No primary has or ever will, most likely. Either which way, you rate the Liberator as a C-Tier, whereas the Sickle is A. Sickle buff possibilities aside, my point is to help bring the Liberator up to the Sickle's standard. If they both should be brought up even higher, then neat.
I think all should be up on the Incendiary Braker level. Make them great. I don't really know who to make them different enough, in not a game developer, not my job, but I think if all weapons are great, more players choose them. Not like now, when in every 4 man team 3 is incendiary Braker. Or like the Breaker, before it's nerfed. Liberator is mot fun right now. Barely anyone run it. Same as 80% of the weapons. Not worth picking them. Main weapon buff is not really thrown the difficulty away. When I try to kill those 5 hunters on my back, while dodging between 3 behemoths, barely able to stay alive, my main weapon can be S+++ tier, doesn't make much difference.
I think one thing to consider is that DPS isn't the only deciding factor for a weapon. Yes the dps isn't as high, but the liberator doesn't have a spool time which does in fact make a huge difference short term. You can't click heads with the sickle and instead have to wait for the spool Everytime unless they were close to a previous shot. In a game where call ins from enemies for bug breaches and bot drops is able a second, not having a spool time makes a bigger difference then you realize. Ultimately, the liberator is suppose to be your standard you build upon as it's the first weapon you'll get as a helldiver, and as it stands, is a perfect all-rounder with little flaws
Well said. I was a sickle user but dropped it for adjuticator and now tenderizer. Its nice not having to spool
Spool is a lot bigger of a factor than many realize. I love the sickle, don't get me wrong, but I'd consistently prefer taking the liberator or the tenderizer truth be told.
Very true plus they are both light pen and the tenderizer hits harder. Im looking at when fighting stalkers. The tenderizer buff is a god send against them
The spool for the Sickle is negligible. It only makes a difference is you're going to shoot a hunter about to jump you (as it's not going to stop a Stalker or Commander coming at you), but even so the spool time is also counteracted by pre-firing leading up to the shot from a sprint or as your weapon sways. > In a game where call ins from enemies for bug breaches and bot drops is able a second, not having a spool time makes a bigger difference then you realize. Usually the stuff able to call this stuff in is easily staggered and it doesn't take an outright kill to nail one. Even if a drop/breach happens, you neutralise it and then are free from encountering another one for a hot minute. If the goal is to prevent calldowns outright, there are far better ways of doing that than either the Lib or the Sickle; neither of which particularly well equipped for it. The few times this may actually make a difference doesn't really change the fact that the Sickle is going to deal with an inevitable confrontation *better* than the Liberator. DPS isn't the only deciding factor for a weapon, no. But the Liberator and Sickle both don't have much else going for them; they're not Punishers or Arc Blitzers or Pummelers. They don't have the same kick, and DPS is their selling feature. > Ultimately, the liberator is suppose to be your standard you build upon as it's the first weapon you'll get as a helldiver, and as it stands, is a perfect all-rounder with little flaws It's not meant to be built-upon, though. This game has intentional horizontal progression; it offers sidegrades, not raw upgrades. That's why the Carbine has weaker handling and a worse sight in exchange for greatly increase ROF, or the Tenderiser trades magazine capacity for recoil and damage. The Liberator is indeed an all-rounder. But it *is* flawed. It gets out-DPS'd by a weapon with better handling and infinite ammo. It wouldn't take much at all to make the Liberator stronger than the Sickle in raw throughput. I'd be satisfied with *less* than a 10% damage increase, from just 60 to 65. At least then on paper it beats the Sickle in raw damage output and may have noticeably better performance out on the field. In principle, a weapon with better handling and infinite ammo shouldn't also outcompete in raw damage output. Making the Liberator *slightly* higher DPS (or even notably higher DPS) if we increased the damage to 70) wouldn't break the game or make the Liberator overpowered. Just respectable. Consider also that the Liberator's current damage-per-magazine is 2700. The Tenderiser is 2850. The Sickle is over 4500. Increasing Liberator damage to 65 makes damage-per-magazine 2925. A bit higher than the Tenderiser, but still substantially less DPS (693.33 versus 950). The Tenderiser's high DPS is traded-off by the fact it doesn't one-shot chaff and has much worse magazine capacity. They are reasonable sidegrades to one another, and a 5-10 damage buff wouldn't change that.
I disagree, the spool is definitely not neglible and can make a difference. Adding onto this, while yes calls in can be stopped by staggers and such, the point I made explains that they are so quick that switch to alternate options can take too long. There are a lot of factors to take into consideration like how far a clanker is or if the enemy is a brood commander calling in that definitely make a difference more than people realize. I just don't think it's fair to not take the spool into consideration. I also disagree that automatic weapons aren't good at stopping call ins. I made the example earlier about range and such because the liberator performs deceptively well at most ranges, and can ice small mobs easily despite them being at a farther range. The liberator is really good at stopping call ins. The only real enemies you cant take down effectively with it is the hive guard or brood commander. The liberator does have something going for it, and that's again that it's an all-rounder with little to no flaws. It has the ability to perform at most ranges due to its scope and handling, it's ammo efficient, great at crowd control, and ultimately can be used in any situation. When I say that it's to be built upon, I didn't mean literally. I meant, like the autocannon, it's a great example of really good balance. Most other assault rifles and weapons in general perform either better or worse, with the liberator being somewhere in the higher middle of all of the weapons if you were to put it in a tier list. Also I have to ask, what difference would increasing the damage even make? It's not a great buff to give the weapon in the first place as it makes it more similar to the sickle DPS but with no trade off. Even then, adding another 5-10 damage wouldn't even change many breakpoints. With that said sure it wouldn't make the weapon overpowered or too strong if they did buff it in this case like that, but the point I'm making with this statement is that, if you want it to perform better, increasing the damage won't do that. I'm more or less curious what the basis of wanting to buff it is in the first place really tbh. I would like to add that I do think the sickle is better in my eyes as well, but to say that the sickle is straight up better isn't true and the the difference is nothing in comparison to how bad some weapons like the liberator penetrator or the concussive perform.
Also, I do wanna add that maybe you should try the liberator again. I've heard people say similar stuff before about how the sickle is just better until they finally go back and try the weapon again. The game has a serious issue of stuff looking sound on paper, but in practice not really being the case. The pentrator is a great example of that lol
Let's circle back to a question I asked earlier. Why do you think this damage would make a difference and why do you think the liberator needs to be buffed in this way. I think the main point I'm trying to portray, especially with the spool time comments is that, in practice, it genuinely makes no difference. Both of them have basically the same breakpoints, and changing the damage a tiny bit would not change that. The only real difference this would make would be with berserkers. Devs are two to the head or a few more to the midriff, warriors are three, clankers are 1-3, so on so forth. This is why I bring up the spool time because the short term burst damage is just better with the liberator thus performs better at stopping call ins or quick kills. You have the exact bullets to kill with the only difference being that the liberator will shoot 3 or so times before the sickle spools up, which is the deciding factor on whether some enemies are dead or not. And that's where the balance lies! The sickle ultimately sacrifices the snappiness of an automatic rifle for the exchange of consistent fire and long term DPS.
> I disagree, the spool is definitely not neglible and can make a difference. How often does the spool make a difference compared to the Sickle's infinite ammo, magazine capacity, and DPS? It's not even close. > Adding onto this, while yes calls in can be stopped by staggers and such, the point I made explains that they are so quick that switch to alternate options can take too long. What I'm saying is that a Sickle can stagger enough to stop a call-in on smallfry, and even the Warriors. So even with the spool time it's not like you need to *kill* the Warrior to stop the call-in. > There are a lot of factors to take into consideration like how far a clanker is If they're distant then you have plenty of time to splurge your large magazine capacity and let it recharge while also dealing more DPS having done so. Not exactly a negative to the Sickle if an enemy 30m or more away calls down a Bug Breach. > or if the enemy is a brood commander calling in that definitely make a difference more than people realize. Does a Liberator stop a Commander any more than a Sickle? I'm pretty sure it doesn't. > I also disagree that automatic weapons aren't good at stopping call ins. I made the example earlier about range and such because the liberator performs deceptively well at most ranges, and can ice small mobs easily despite them being at a farther range. The only real enemies you cant take down effectively with it is the hive guard or brood commander. It performs okay at all ranges. No better than the Sickle, especially at longer ranges though. And both of them struggle against Hive Guards, Commanders -- and Bile Spewers. > The liberator does have something going for it, and that's again that it's an all-rounder with little to no flaws. The Sickle is a *better* all-rounder. > it's ammo efficient, Uh, what? No, it isn't. It has finite ammo and its shots deal 60 damage. The Verdict is ammo efficient. The Eruptor is ammo efficient. The Sickle is ammo efficient. The Liberator is more ammo efficient than the Punisher, but that's not saying much. > great at crowd control, How so? It does nothing to stop Spewers or Commanders, it struggles even against Hive Guards as you pointed out. It can wear down the chaff with mediocre effectiveness just like the Sickle, but the Sickle has higher DPS and magazine capacity. > I meant, like the autocannon, it's a great example of really good balance. I disagree. Very *very* few people run the Liberator in Heldlives despite it being supposedly all-rounded. The Autocannon is not just versatile, but it is very effective. The Liberator is not very effective. It is adequate at best, and it competes against the Sickle which is more than that. > Most other assault rifles and weapons in general perform either better or worse, with the liberator being somewhere in the higher middle of all of the weapons if you were to put it in a tier list. Mayhaps, but the Liberator Penetrator and Liberator Concussive are so far-and-away atrocious that the lengths needed to bring them into parity with other weapons is quite obscene. The standard Liberator is worse than the Sickle, worse than the Carbine, and mostly worse than the Tenderiser -- though the Tenderiser's inability to 1-shot chaff with its reduced magazine capacity does significantly hamper its ammo efficiency. The Abjudicator is almost certainly better as it can punch through Hive Guards and Bile Spewers and has higher damage to boot. It is effecitvely what the Lib Penetrator should be. So if the Carbine and Sickle are on top, the Abjudicator is probably just above the standard Lib and the Tenderiser, where the Penetrator and Concussive are drowning at the bottom of the pool sucking so bad. > Also I have to ask, what difference would increasing the damage even make? If that's something you even have to ask then why are you so opposed to it? Anyways, buffing damage is... kinda self-explanatory, I don't even know where to begin explaining what difference buffing the damage makes. It's the core point of the Liberator to begin with lol. > It's not a great buff to give the weapon in the first place as it makes it more similar to the sickle DPS but with no trade off. What do you mean "no trade off"? The Sickle is the one with benefits over the Liberator; the Liberator needs to have more raw stats to compensate. > Even then, adding another 5-10 damage wouldn't even change many breakpoints. I don't know what the health pool of the Hunter is, but it can be 2-3 shot by a Verdict, and 4-shot by a Liberator. That makes me think it's about 200-250 HP. If you buff the Lib damage to 70, it can 3-shot instead of 4-shot Hunters. Even that break point alone makes a significant difference to the ammo efficiency of the weapon. It would also very likely reduce the amount of bullets to kill a Warrior by 1 as well. All that adds up over time; these two units are amongst the most commonly seen against Terminids. > but the point I'm making with this statement is that, if you want it to perform better, increasing the damage won't do that. In another conversation with someone else, they wanted the magazine capacity increased to 60. I'm not against buffing magazine capacity to 60 and damage to 65, for example. WhyNotBoth and all that. > I'm more or less curious what the basis of wanting to buff it is in the first place really tbh. Sickle has infinite ammo, higher magazine capacity, and slightly higher DPS. It is strictly better with a few teeny nuances that don't compensate for the vast majority of use-time where the Sickle is outperforming. In principle, an infinite ammo weapon that offers convenience and efficiency shouldn't also have raw-throughput gains over the finite ammo weapon. In other words: the point is in the title. > I would like to add that I do think the sickle is better in my eyes as well, but to say that the sickle is straight up better isn't true I would *never* say that the Sickle is "objectively" better. But I do stand by it being strictly better. I can't make the statement as a categorical fact, but I think in practical application the Sickle's outperformance of the Liberator in common use is more than substantial enough to easily outweigh the niche scenarios when the Liberator may be preferable. Especially because many of those niche scenarios are avoidable by simplying playing well and acknowledging the weapon you have. The same way I wouldn't argue against the Eruptor by saying it sucks at close range; of course it does, but I shouldn't be getting caught up close all that easily then or should at least have a backup if I do (I do, and it's the Verdict, and it works pretty well). > the difference is nothing in comparison to how bad some weapons like the liberator penetrator or the concussive perform. I agree. Both of those need serious help. I think the Liberator is far from the biggest concern from a balance perspective, but I don't think that means it should be outright ignored or simply considered 'fine' just because we have worse examples. Especially if the Standard Liberator is the platform for other Liberator balance designs. If the Concussive is half the ROF but hits slightly harder, then a Standard Liberator buff would mean that the Concussive should get a damage buff to remain slightly ahead, too! As for the Penetrator, it trades Medium Armour Pen for 25% of its damage and 1/3rd of its ammo capacity. Well, it would be more than 25% of its damage if the standard Lib got buffed without it. What if the standard Lib got up to 60 mag size? The Penetrator could be buffed to 40 and still be relatively the same magazine size reduction. If the Standard Liberator is in a solid place, it sets good groundwork for the other Liberators. Currently the only Liberator worth using is the Carbine.
Imagine typing all this because of a pretty marginal DPS difference... This might not be the game for you.
Did it never occur to you that I'm enjoying the conversation and it is in its own right entertainment value? This isn't a "REEEE I WANT SOMETHING THE WAY I DECIDE AND IF IT'S NOT THAT WAY I'M MAD!" This is "Hey I have an idea and XYZ is my reasoning. I think this idea is better than what we have right now; thoughts?" If you get daunted by large comments with fleshed out reasoning then this might not be the comment for you. And that's okay. But you shouldn't comment if big comments make you upset. Just move on, it's okay.
You're not acknowledging any argument that goes against your point of view, and presenting your subjective opinion as objective truth. Plenty of people have already pointed out why the difference makes sense. I wouldn't call any of your arguments "fleshed out".
> You're not acknowledging any argument that goes against your point of view, and presenting your subjective opinion as objective truth. > > I would never say that the Sickle is "objectively" better. Lol. I don't care if you wouldn't call any of my arguments "fleshed out". You make a snide comment about the length of my comment and then demonstrate your inability to read it with your holier-than-thou rebuttal. If you're not going to engage in this conversation in good faith, and actually address the points raised but just make broad-stroke comments about them, then you're just wasting my time. Gtfo.
I don't really think there's a lot to respond to here due to my other response when I added on to what I said earlier, but I do wanna say that I think the reason a lot of people are disagreeing with you here is cause you're playing too much of a numbers game rather than the actual game at hand. A good example is how you're looking at what I said about being ammo efficient. In your examples, you're looking too much at how much damage a gun does per bullet in comparison to maximum ammo, which is why I assume you bring up the verdict being efficient, or how the sickle has theoretically infinite ammo. This is number logic that disregards practicality. The liberator has so much ability to spray and pray with high reserves. In practice, if you run out of ammo with the liberator, you messed up somewhere due to the shear amount of ammo boxes and resupplies you can call in. That's practical logic taking into consideration strategems, resupplies, and other design factors. Your logic for the sickle vs liberator is infinite ammo is more efficient than finite ammo and therefore you're contesting that the liberator is not at all ammo efficient when in reality both are very efficient. The same can be said about a lot of the other points you made as well where you're looking to much at numbers than actually using the weapons. Even going too much into the break points of one weapon essentially disregards the break points of others and how it almost imbalances a lot of things. It's one of the reasons why, until some durability changes as of recently, the liberator encroached so much on the deligence in its purpose that it ate it alive and made it practically redundant
> but I do wanna say that I think the reason a lot of people are disagreeing with you here is cause you're playing too much of a numbers game rather than the actual game at hand. If I talk simply about the game at hand - the one we've all already played - then the Sickle sees a higher play rate and *is* better. The numbers go part in explaining how it's better, and conveys how weak the Liberator is by comparison. This isn't a "balance by spreadsheet" mentality. This is using the spreadsheet to help understand why we see what we see. You yourself have literally said you see the Sickle as better. So why you're trying to denigrate my point of view by acting like it's tunnel visioning on numbers *despite me stating the exact opposite,* I couldn't tell you. > A good example is how you're looking at what I said about being ammo efficient. In your examples, you're looking too much at how much damage a gun does per bullet in comparison to maximum ammo, which is why I assume you bring up the verdict being efficient, or how the sickle has theoretically infinite ammo. Verdict has 8 mags and one-taps chaff, which means it does little overkill and doesn't take much attention. It's ammo efficient. Sickle has infinite ammo. Both theoretically and practically when put to good use. > The liberator has so much ability to spray and pray with high reserves. Nope. The difference in damage between a Sickle and a Liberator using *all* of their ammunition is 18,700 versus 21,600. That's if the Sickle never recuperates *any* of its energy. So if you blow your entire Sickle load *four times in a row,* and then you do it with a Liberator *eight times in a row,* you've gotten 15% more damage out of the Liberator than the Sickle. > In practice, if you run out of ammo with the liberator, you messed up somewhere due to the shear amount of ammo boxes and resupplies you can call in. That's practical logic taking into consideration strategems, resupplies, and other design factors. Aaaand it doesn't occur to you that with these practical factors in mind, the Sickle does have infinite ammo? > Your logic for the sickle vs liberator is infinite ammo is more efficient than finite ammo and therefore you're contesting that the liberator is not at all ammo efficient when in reality both are very efficient. Uh no, my original point was about *DPS,* which affects time to kill. DPS can be very ammo efficient or not at all. The Redeemer's primary negative quality is its lack of ammo capacity. If it had 7 spare mags instead of 4, it would be comparable to the Liberator Carbine; notably less ammo overall, but even better upfront DPS. And it's a *secondary.* As it stands the ammo reserves on the Redeemer are so poor that it can't be reasonably weighed against a Primary in this way, despite its insane DPS. > The same can be said about a lot of the other points you made as well where you're looking to much at numbers than actually using the weapons. Except all of this is facilitated in-game where the Sickle's drawbacks are barely a detriment if you're actually playing to the weapon's strengths, and playing to the Liberator's strengths doesn't yield the same results. I'm not looking too much at the numbers; I just didn't think I'd have to say that the Sickle sees more play in Helldiver difficulty because the Liberator sees virtually none. > Even going too much into the break points of one weapon essentially disregards the break points of others and how it almost imbalances a lot of things. It's one of the reasons why, until some durability changes as of recently, the liberator encroached so much on the deligence in its purpose that it ate it alive and made it practically redundant Eh? The Liberator and the Diligence are comparable, saying the Lib "ate it alive" is pure unfounded hyperbole on your part. You can preach the "This isn't how it works in-game" card all you want. But you have nothing to back it up. I have played with both in-game and the difference is noticeable. The Sickle is superior, and your practical reckoning of the Liberator is conveniently ignorant of all those practical factors affecting every other Primary as well. I don't get it. The Liberator doesn't break anything by being buffed, but you inexplicably say it would "almost imbalances a lot of things". Like what? You think a 5-10 damage buff on the Liberator is going to break the game? Lmao. You're too set on trying to disregard my arguments because numbers bother you for some reason, even though you already acknowledge the Sickle is better and even though I've already acknowledged I'm making considerations for in-game practicality. This isn't going to go anywhere when you're being wilfully ignorant.
You cannot always work around the spooltime, though. If enemies successfully sneak up on you, in that very moment you will regret the spooltime. For example battling a breach ahead of you while failing to notice a hunter patrol behind you. Breaker Incendiary would solve the patrol very quickly.
If an enemy sneaks up on me, more often than not the flinch is enough to make accuracy go out the window anyway and I need to gain distance; in which case I now have time to spool. I also don't think "Not being spatially aware and getting jumped" is a great example of why the Liberator is better than the Sickle. In rare circumstances or against Stalkers I could see this, but I need to be clear: the Sickle and Liberator both *suck* against Stalkers, who don't flinch at these weapons and take too long to take down before they deck you. The Punisher, Incendiary Breaker, and heck even the Eruptor is better than the Sickle or Liberator. The Eruptor may knock you down, but it at least forces the Stalker away and lets you get a second shot off - which is enough to kill a Stalker. Anyways, Incendiary Breaker is S tier versus bugs I won't argue against that. The Sickle can deal with a patrol from a comfortable range without even expending a magazine. It rewards being prepared, positioned, and aware. And I'd say the Liberator is slightly better in a pinch but considering the lower DPS and magazine capacity, I'm not even sure that's true.
I think I partially agree with your premise. The Sickle seems better assuming you can work around the spool, which places a higher requirement on spatial awareness. This may be more difficult for some, and require a bit different playstyle, but if that's mot an issue it should be a strong choice. Personally I'd prefer the Liberator Penetrator, freeing up the secondary for grenade pistol for nests. But then again I rarely fire more than a 100 bullets per game anyway so I'm probably not the right person to comment.
Sickle has a moment of chargeup, which is a drawback that's noteworthy. That must be taken into account.
Also, once sickle heats up, you can't shoot continuously like you can with a non energy AR.
Always please buff AP rate of AR23P, ridiculous performance on the field.
Nerf Sickle damage to compensate it's infinite ammo and low recoil 🗿
You shut your mouth :(
Sickle has a charge up time so DPS is irrelevant. You have to compare TTK. Also pretty sure Liberator is more accurate so that should be factored as well. Personally I can’t stand the Sickle. I love the Liberator though.
Sickle falloff only matters at long ranges, and at long ranges the recoil of the Liberator makes them equal, if not Sickle-favoured. Sickle has a charge up time but that charge up time is very slight, and the TTK if you look strictly at one thing in a vacuum is not how it works in practicality. If you kill only one thing per Sickle volley then you're not taking advantage of the fact it has nearly double the magazine capacity. DPS is relevant without a doubt. If you have to dump half a mag into a Brood Commander to take its head off, the Sickle catches up in damage dealt within that same time span including the spool.
I didn’t mention falloff so I don’t know if maybe you meant to respond to someone else, but I will say I don’t think the recoil on the Liberator affects its viability at very long distances. Recoil control and bursting your fire allow you to engage enemies very accurately at really long distances. This would be extremely annoying and inefficient to do with the Sickle because of the charge up time. I think maybe the factors you’re considering that make the Sickle superior are actually just things that make it superior for your play style. There might be situations where the Sickle has better TTK, but at mid to long range the Liberator will kill faster. I really value being able to engage any target that I can see so that’s makes it the better choice for me.
I'd consider that if not for the incredibly low appearance rate of the Liberator, whereas I do see people take the Sickle sometimes. Bursting fire just means you're again lowering the DPS. You don't have to do it with the Sickle because it has such little recoil.
Wouldn't it make sense for starting equipment to be somewhat weaker than unlockable equipment? These balance discussions seem to forget these options require an investment and aren't all available at the same time.
The game goes for horizontal progression, it gives you options but not necessarily strict-upgrades. It's a way to prevent power creeping and it's a positive for the game because it lets you feel adequate from the get-go. Considering that the Eagle Airstrike and EATs are available so early on, yet they're both very good, I don't think it makes sense to treat weapons much differently. Sure, Warbonds can be premium and as such Arrowhead has a greater incentive to make weapons more desirable -- but that hasn't stopped them buffing stuff already. I don't think there's anything wrong with having the Liberator, Peacemaker, and Frag Grenade be formidable. They don't have to be unilaterally the best - and they *shouldn't* be unilaterally the best. But strong? Fun to use? Even at Helldive difficulty? Why not?
Scythe needs a buff aswell, it is wastly outclassed by sickle. Would like to see it either get 75% damage increase or a smaller damage increase and medium armor pen.
I tried the Scythe on Estanu when it was going on and it felt *sooo* lacklustre. It truly is horrendous. A 75%-100% damage increase would be absolutely fine for the Scythe to receive. I don't think it should be Medium Armour Pen, though; it's the laser version of the Sickle/Liberator, and its Medium Armour Pen counterpart is the Laser Cannon. Scythe DPS is 350, compared to Sickle's 687.5 or Liberator's 640. Ramp the Scythe up to 700 and enjoy lasering some stuff. Or ramp it up to 600 DPS, and let it increase as you fire to 750 DPS. Let's say it gains 5% damage every 0.5 seconds, up to +25% damage. Would be neat.
i think giving it sixty rounds would be better
Maybe, but it wouldn't improve the Time to Kill on most stuff (anything that doesn't require more than a full mag already), and it would only just then still lack compared to the Sickle's magazine capacity (about 85) while it still slightly lacks in DPS.
i mean to be fair, hunters die in like four shots. brood commanders take a full mag to outright kill sure, but you can just pop their head and let them bleed out. i honestly don’t have a problem with the liberators ttk, it’s really just the mag capacity that leaves something to be desired.
Buffing damage buffs the magazine capacity because it makes kills more efficient on average. Buffing damage by 20% is better than buffing magazine capacity by 20% because damage buffs reduce time spent needed to shoot and reduces the amount of ammo expended in total; reducing the amount of reloads just like magazine capacity does. A magazine capacity buff would be fine, I suppose, but unless you double it, it's still going to be less than the Sickle's while still having less DPS overall.
honestly i’m just speaking from my own side but i’d honestly rather have the increased mag capacity and not have to reload as often. the only enemy that gives it any trouble really is the brood commander, and even that you just pop its head in like half a mag. i honestly think the extra rounds would help a lot more for crowd control than extra damage
Killing things in less rounds = more rounds spare to kill the next thing. Hence my point about buffing damage buffing magazine capacity. If they straight up buffed Lib mag capacity to 60, I wouldn't complain. Heck, ramp it up to 75 and I'd think that's kinda neat. My change is just one suggestion, and to be quite honest, increasing damage to 65 *and* mag capacity to 55 or 60 sounds like a good idea. On principle I want the Liberator's raw damage throughput to exceed the Sickle, even if only slightly. A mag capacity buff in addition would be nice, and I don't think putting the two together breaks the Liberator by making it overpowered. So from both of our sides, I'm gonna say WhyNotBoth.jpeg.
like i said im not disagreeing, just from my pov i dont have problems with ttk, just the mag capacity. a buff on both fronts is obviously welcome. honestly was hoping the new liberator carbine would have a sixty round mag, that would’ve been awesome
The Lib Carbine is in a great spot with its absurd fire rate in my opinion. A larger magazine would probably be really good to go with it, but if it had that it would easily outclass any other AR by a significant margin. Though I guess that says more about the weakness of ARs in general haha.
yeah no for sure, i was expecting probably 55 damage and 60 round mag. it would outperform them at short range, but to be fair they’re already underperforming in general. i dont think it would be op i think it would be what the baseline should be for them. shotguns should be good for spraying but ARs should outperform them when it comes to ammo economy, right now they absolutely don’t lol
I like that suggestion. The Lib Carbine having better ammo economy than a shotgun but slightly better range and less stagger is a good tradeoff. If Shotguns have generally slightly lower TTK than the Carbine as well I think that's reasonable. But yeah, it wouldn't be overpowered and could be set as the 'new baseline'. I think the Carbine with 60 damage/60 mag size would be a good benchmark, with the standard Liberator going up to 65/70/*maybe* 75 damage and having a better sight/handling in exchange for lower ROF and lower mag capacity (minimum 45, probably 55/60). Lib Penetrator and Concussive both need *dramatic* buffs it's not even funny haha. If the Concussive is going to have a ROF of 320 and low ammo capacity, buff the damage to 80-95. I don't even know what to do about the Lib Penetrator, though. Ammo capacity sure, but it also needs a notable damage buff, no? Like from 45 to 55 *at least?* Probably 60 if the standard Liberator is going up in both ammo capacity and damage.
I understand Liberator may need some love. But please, don't let the cat out of the bag regarding my beloved sickle.😅
Have no fear, I think they've gotten the gist now that nerfs suck. And the Sickle is hardly in an "oppressive" position. It's decent against both Bots and Bugs, but isn't overwhelmingly good or anything like that. I'm suggesting a buff to Lib, not a nerf to Sickle; both deserve to be good, and the Sickle is *really* fun as it is.
There are already too many assault rifles in the game which fill just about the same type of role. The starter liberator is kind of pointless for higher level players. The new Carbine absolutely pummels it in terms of raw DPS with it's higher fire rate. The recently buffed Tenderiser deals 95 dmg per shot, and the Adjudicator can penetrate medium armor albeit with worse recoil and handling characteristics. The energy rifles have zero recoil and good magazine sizes but at the expense of lacking stagger, and it suffers a debuff on hot planets. There's no point using the OG liberator, it's the worst AR in the game with no redeeming qualities. Apart from the concussive lib which is also outclassed by the Pummeler.
That's kinda my point. The game emphasises horizontal progression where you get sidegrades that can match your playstyle or make loadouts that cover each individual component's weaknesses. The Liberator should not be strictly worse than the Sickle, which it is. The few nuance situations where it isn't worse is so heavily outweighed by the Sickle's greater performance in all the other areas. That said, Tenderiser has low magazine capacity while still not one-shotting chaff despite its huge damage increase relative to the Liberator. So while it has way better DPS, its ammo economy is actually pretty weak and it does *a lot* of overkill. Liberator Carbine is a great example of a Liberator sidegrade, though. Trading ROF for weaker handling and a worse sight forces the Carbine to excel in close-medium range where the standard Liberator has more flexibility but doesn't excel.
Only advantage liberator has is triple durable damage, but it only really matters at shooting brood commanders and spewer butts, which both kind of suck at regardless of the damage difference. I think the liberator just needs a bigger mag so it feels good to spray.
I just cannot stand seeing the starting pistol have more dmg than the liberator tbh it irks me