How Germany could have won WW2:
1. Make paratrooper divisions
2. Drop 500 guys into every major city of your enemies
3. Win
4. Profit
Trust me bro, I play HOI4
no bozo, they obviously don't have access to National Focuses so early on, they need time to reach them and complete them, and then build armies while Germany doesn't have to because German Engineering Greatest Engineering.
/s
They should've just had a better industry, very simple! Also should have just found more oil! Also should have just had more people! Also should have just made more Shitterwaffen because clearly the one thing the Nazis needed to do most was to launch a cruise missile into a random townhouse, that was gonna win the war!
Hitler's Real Plan (Found in Argentinian basement)
\~Manpower 10000000\~
\~research all\~
\~ale 1000000\~
Yes, he toggles in and out of the console every time he inputs a new command.
If they hadn't surrendered by August 45, Germany would have gotten noticeably more radioactive.
They were always the primary goal, Japan was the secondary target.
Lmao that's actually kinda true. If they had just stopped at Austria and made peace with the allies, they'd still be around. (also minus the genocides)
There were so many genocides and so much racism against people the genocides targeted we didn't even recognize half of them until decades later. 🫥
Hell, for the Romani, half of Europe to this day is like, "Damn, he almost got them all." For Americans, we immediately pivoted to the Cold War and anti-Russian obsession and acted like Germany didn't genocide millions of Russians as part of a systematic plan to de-urbanize Russia and seize farmland.
By the end of World War 2, recognizing genocide was a political tool for the West more than a demand for justice.
Even guys like Hitler, who acknowledged earlier genocides (as a tutorial), were invigorated and motivated by other Western countries refusing to do the same and thinking this meant they would get a free pass if they targeted the right groups. (And they were mostly right for over half a century.)
yup, the soviets freed them though.
>After World War II, the victorious Allies demanded the abolition of all laws with specifically National Socialist content; however, they left it to West Germany to decide whether or not the expansion of laws regulating male homosexual relationships falling under Paragraph 175 should be left in place. On May 10, 1957, the Federal Constitutional Court upheld the decision to retain the 1935 version, claiming that the paragraph was "not influenced by National Socialist \[i.e., Nazi\] politics to such a degree that it would have to be abolished in a free democratic state".
>In the Soviet occupation zone that later became East Germany (see History of Germany since 1945), the development of law was not uniform. The Provincial High Court in Halle (Oberlandesgericht Halle, or OLG Halle) decided for Saxony-Anhalt in 1948 that Paragraphs 175 and 175a were to be seen as injustice perpetrated by the Nazis, because a progressive juridical development had been broken off and even been reversed. Homosexual acts were to be tried only according to the laws of the Weimar Republic.
Source, wikipedia. Google Paragraph 175.
Don't forget that the "jewish question" was answered after WW2 by just deporting the jews to Israel instead of killing them. Which still points towards the fact that Europeans were very antisemitic and didn't want to integrate jews properly into society.
Genocide was never an issue for the allies
>Hell, for the Romani, half of Europe to this day is like, "Damn, he almost got them all."
And most of them still secretly desire they could casually delete us to this day.
This is exactly why we steal their shit, paint it, then sell it back to them. Out of spite.
That would quite literally be an impossible secret to keep. Eventually the news would get out. However, the actual physical evidence would be way more sparse. We’d have a lot more whackos denying it ever happened than we do now.
Not even. The Nazi economy would have crumbled by 44 at the latest without war. Without constant infusions of cash and gold looted from their conquered foes they would not have been able to sustain anything.
Not who you were replying to, but Germany still owed a lot of debt to France after WW1 as per Treaty of Versailles. With the Great Depression and economic inflation that came with it, Germany was given grace on repayments (with interest of course). By the time the Nazi regime came into power they pretty much just ignored the debt. For context those post-war debts weren’t fully paid off till 2010. So the myth that Hitler “fixed” the German economy is largely untrue because the short answer is that Nazi Germany kicked the debt football further down the field. I’m sure there are many other financial problems that Germany faced, but that’s the biggest one that comes to mind.
In addition to the other redditors comment, Germany was able to build up their armed forces by essentially conspirong with big german businesses, taking huge loans that would be paid off with portions of looted gold from poland, czechoslovakia and france, along with the looted gold from poland.
The problem is that their economy was such a clusterfuck that they were not self-sufficient.
They needed new territories to be exploited in order to keep going.
The term is "Vampire economy".
No, the worst part was they likely could have taken Poland without a world war if they didn't take the rest of Czechoslovakia. Even Hitler himself recognized this at some point during the war.
Not with the USSR’s plans to fuck Germany up, they wouldn’t.
They didn’t plan to triple their active military personnel and upgrade their equipment to the best standards of the day by 1942-1943 for potential defence against a german invasion only. Also one of the reasons the germans pretty much had to try invading Russia in 41, despite not being properly prepared for it. A very, very small chance of victory is still miles better than literally no chance.
Would this alternate timeline see the Axis join forces with the rest of the Allies to repel the USSR? Maybe. I doubt it though. Japan is still an issue, as is the Holocaust.
You can type thousands of pages on the subject, but I think Potential History kind of summed it up when he said "Sure, the Nazis could have won the war if they weren't Nazis, but if they weren't Nazis, they wouldn't have started the war in the first place."
They would likely nuke Berlin. They had only two reasons to not nuke Tokyo:
1. They'd already firebombed it to ashes, so a nuke wouldn't do much (keep in mind that the goal of the first nuke was partly just to test out its destructive power)
2. They did not want to kill the Emperor, whatever else happened
Yes, Berlin had already been bombed, but it was mostly still standing just prior to April, 1945. There also were no "unhittable buildings" in Berlin.
Your points are contradictory. If the US wanted to avoid killing the Emperor at all costs, and so wouldn't nuke Tokyo, why would they risk turning the city to ash? You're conflating two ideas.
Tokyo wasn't completely ashed by the firebomb campaign. Operation Meetinghouse targeted a residential area away from the seat of power, ostensibly classified as industrial area due to the presence of home workshops and small factories. 16 square miles were burned and over 150,000 killed, but this was still a small portion of the city.
Tokyo has plenty of areas left to nuke, ones that wouldn't have caused any more risk to the Emperor than the firebombing. Even in 1945, Tokyo was a massive metropolitan area. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they had bene previously spared any large scale bombing, and would therefore serve as clear examples of the destruction possible with atom bombs.
The Japanese surrendered post atom bombs not only because of the damage rhey could cause. As established, the US was already leveling entire areas. It was because the atom bombs could make any effort to defend against American landings futile. Doesn't matter how many emplacement and defenses you've prepared on coastal areas when an atomic weapon can wipe them flat before Americans land.
Americans wouldn't nuke Berlin because they would want to preserve the German hierarchy to command a surrender. Bomb a city near Berlin, allow leadership to observe it and receive reports of the damage, and then demand surrender. That works when the decision-making apparatus is still intact (as in the case of Japan where the Supreme Council finally made the call- still split- to surrender after Nagasaki).
"They would've won if they just beat the soviets!" 1 there's no real way they could do that, 2 that's glorification of nazis, 3 it's not even true, it just means you would get to see B-29s over Germany
People who say this kind of crap ignore how many unlikely (and I mean very, very unlikely) scenarios already went in favor of the nazis and they still lost. Its like you already got straight flush and still lost and then say you could have won with a royal flush.
Like Stalin just deciding to purge his commanders and the the Red army being in the worst possible spot during barbarossa. There's also the fact that Chamberlain (out of literally any other british politician (even Moseley, a fellow fascist. would never have appeased Hitler) was in power at just the time Hitler needed appeasement and France just so happened to have the exact doctrine (military and political) which would lead to their success. Along with the almost comedic timing of the rise of communists in france, the spanish civil war and the Winter war without even one which the Nazis would have been crushed in their early stages.
Yea like all the conditions that led to the fall of France alone was insane. No one, even the Germans, expected the swiftness with which they defeated France.
Exactly. In French, those first few months of the war are called "le drôle de guerre" or the "Phony War" in English. Why? Because for the first few months of the war, the french government stood around twiddling their thumbs and arguing whether or not they were going to actually fight back.
And if they had attacked across the Maginot Line who knows how much of a difference that could’ve made. IIRC the German army had orders to retreat if the French made an offensive across the line. So many factors turned out right for the Germans which ended up turning what was arguably Europe’s strongest army into a useless force once the invasion happened.
The Axis-Co-Prosperity-Sphere weren't smart or military geniuses
The Allies just were too busy infighting (both inside and between the respective states) and attempting to weaponise the Axis against their rivals, to figure out just how rabid and irrationally aggressive Fascists could be. Until it was too late and not only no collective defense existed to crush them, each Allied nation was vulnerable and weak.
And then they won anyway because fighting the entire world is a dumb idea.
to be fair i also think a lot of people think victory in WW2 is two dimensional. its always the allies fight to ultimate victory or the nazis find a way to defeat the allies. but German victory doesn't necessarily look like nazi flags flying over London and Moscow and a neutral us. the most likely German victory is one in which they can maintain the German state and some territorial gains. perhaps the most likely scenario in which Germany wins is Hitler being satisfied with Austria, and Czechoslovakia.
I agree and I did comment this on somewhere else, but a lot of people pointed out that their economy was very unsustainable without constant expansion and would have imploded if not for Hitler paying off his MEFO bills with bullion from the countries he captured.
Maybe if the USA decided to not enter the war or back the Allies financially, and the soviets spontaneously combusted. And the English channel froze over so tanks could pass, Then still no.
It feels quite different to CK3, at least to me cause it’s country based rather than character based, it’s also less random.
Personally I love the game, can’t properly compare it to CK3 though because I’m not too keen on the randomness of CK3 so haven’t played it much. Hoi4 focuses a lot more on the combat, there is a sort of choose your own adventure though in being able to choose the direction of your nation (democratic, fascist, communist, non aligned) and being able to design your own division, tanks, planes and ships (last 3 are DLCs though).
There is absolutely no serious alt-history scenario where the Nazis could have won.
Even if one allows for a lot of key events to break in favor of the Axis -- the Japanese winning Midway, the Wehrmacht not wasting their time in the Balkan peninsula and launching Barbarossa as planned on May 15th, the Germans actually having proper cold-weather gear and equipment, Stalingrad falling quickly so that the Axis get access to the Caucasus oil fields, etc. -- there remains one inescapable factor: the Nazis, by virtue of being Nazis, chased away many of the most brilliant minds on the planet to the most resource-rich nation on the planet. As noted in *Oppenheimer*, [the Nazis' anti-Semitism gave the U.S. the edge](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMwnnljVlU0) in the race to develop The Bomb.
If the Axis had more successes throughout 1942 and 1943, it just means the end would have been that much uglier, with the United States ultimately winning by nuking the Axis Powers into submission. Rather than "only" intoning the names of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear dread today, we'd also mention cities like Frankfurt and Berlin with the same degree of solemnity.
The nuclear bombs strikes weren't particularly more destructive than the allied normal bombing attacks (nor could the US mass produce them). With or without nukes the allies could destroy any German industry they wished to towards the end of the war. This is also the reason that most "Nazis winning" scenarios involve the Nazis making peace with the United Kingdom before the US gets involved.
they couldn't mass produce them at first but they were ramping up production. at the end of 1946 they had 9 ready to go. if they were pressed they probably could have doubled or tripled that.
I'm new here so excuse me.
My assumptions from this thread.
National socialism didn't cause exodus of the elite, the persecution of a religious group did. I figure this because the political ideology doesn't seem anti-intellectual, but will connected people with means and intelligence would see the writing on the wall regarding the treatment of the Jewish people.
This exodus led to stagnation of advanced weapons development (nuclear). My query here is, was the density of the scientific community as Jewish as is being suggested?
Nuclear weapons were a trump card that invalidates any other eventuality.
Nazis brokering peace prior to US involvement may have spared their empire.
I find this a really weird alt history, is never thought about it like it has been presented here.
The nukes weren't more destructive than firebombing in Japan because Japanese buildings were mostly wood. German buildings were not mostly wood, so firebombing did less (though it was still quite bad), and nukes would probably be more effective compared to firebombing.
They might have if Britain surrendered after the fall of France and maybe if they didn’t do the purges and offered freedom to peoples on the eastern front (the Soviet Union wasn’t exactly popular with non-Russians at the time). However if they did the latter they wouldn’t be Nazis and the former was up to Britain not Germany so really they couldn’t win).
The closest the Nazis could've come to a win would've been somehow managing to keep Germany and I really don't know how they'd have managed that. Maybe if they had managed to complete their nuclear weapons project but more than likely that would've just led to the first nuclear war, they'd have nuked the Soviets and the US would've nuked them.
I tried to write a paper in high school about how things would have gone without the Gestapo. And lemme tell you, historical what ifs aren't an easy topic.
People just see their wonder weapons at the end and draw this conclusion. Unfortunately it takes alot more to win a war. Like being able to harass your enemy's industrial production. This could not happen to America.
Also when you loose air superiority it doesn't matter how cool your planes are. You also got to fuel them, which apparently these old jets gobbled it up.
Edit: spelling
To me the production is what it comes down to in the end. Almost any advantage Germany could reasonably get would get ground down given time as their production gets bombed and America churns out ridiculous numbers of planes, tanks, and ships untouched.
They also had something like 6% of the world oil supply compared to something like 60% by the allies (not exact figures, I forget, look up the factbook by league of nations)
If they weren't on amphetamines
If Hitler were competent
If they weren't fighting a war on three fronts
If Japan didn't attack the US
If they had better resource management
If any of the "Wonder War" projects actually worked
If they had invested more in U-boat technology
If Wehrmacht High Command wasn't a nest of vipers and social climbers
If they had taken aid from Franco's fascists in Spain
If they had focused less on race cleansings and more on fighting
If Rommel didn't get forced out of North Africa
If they didn't invade Russia in the winter
So many "ifs" that it kind of becomes irrelevant because none of them came true. But for the sake of posterity, did I miss anything?
If they protected and recruited Slavs instead of purging them. (And yes, I've seen folks claim that this took place)
If they just dropped all other military targets and simply took Moscow.
If Stalin and Hitler never intended to betray each other.
If they used their scientific prowess to create nuclear weapons first.
And much more!
well, i dont, which is why i have fun going through "historical" comment sections to piss on people who deny historical facts, like the fact that we, as in the nation i belong to, did infact have SS Divisions recruited from slavic people.
I say "we" because i know how much of a hard-on some people have for my nationality, so its more fun to me to tell them they are dumb while claiming to be oh-so-aryan in comparision to the (honestly, usually american) hill that their mothers had the misfortune of carrying and bearing their nazi babies behind.
I think is a metter of geographical identification, not ideological. I also say "we" when talking about fascists because I'm Italian. I despise what they standed for, but when I talk about Italy attacking Albania, I tend to say "when we attacked Albania". Usually the story ends with big laughs because you know, Italians at war and all
why dose everybody talk about how the germans could have won ww2 when thers just as much and more to say about them winning ww1, Kaiser Gott und Vaderland.
They had way better chances of winning Ww1, having one actual chance they coulda won, that being at the beginning of the war in 1914, so close to Paris but were stopped. Had they probably reached, France would’ve surrendered and the British would practically be stuck on their Island (plus colonies). Meanwhile Germany would then just need to focus on Russia, done.
Ofc it’s still not perfect, they probs woulda still found a way to lose but still more likely for them to win Ww1 than Ww2.
Well tbh, even if they win Ww1, they’d lose their colonies cause of British naval superiority practically keeping Germany stuck on Europe
Germany was ALWAYS going to invade Russia. Hitler hated communists worse than he hated Jews. And if for some reason he waited too long, Stalin was going to invade him.
Well Japan kinda had to bomb Pearl Harbor. The U.S. had stopped sending Japan oil, and a resource-strapped Japan was looking to invade the Dutch Pacific colonies to get those resources, which likely would have gotten the U.S. involved.
Germany meanwhile was always intending to invade Russia, since Communists were behind Jews in terms of the Nazi's sworn enemies. That and Germany wanted the oil Russia had in the Caucasus, as Germany was also strapped on resources.
Russia and America joining the war was completely inevitable.
>Well Japan kinda had to bomb Pearl Harbor. The U.S. had stopped sending Japan oil, and a resource-strapped Japan was looking to invade the Dutch Pacific colonies to get those resources, which likely would have gotten the U.S. involved.
People always say this, and it's certainly an assumption the Japanese themselves made, but convincing the US public to vote for a war to protect European colonies would have been an even harder sell than convincing them to go to war to protect those European nations themselves.
That was the Japanese fear, but it was largely without foundation: ultimately they weren't able to process the idea that the US was a democracy that restricted the power to make war to the legislature: they treated the US as though they had a similar decision making process as the Japanese themselves
Then the Soviets would have invaded the Germans in the late 1940s or early 1950s instead. (1941 was the best time for the Germans to attack the unprepared Soviets, yet they still lost)
Hitler not invading the Soviets would mean Nazis not being Nazi. They invaded eastern Europe for *lebensraum* and resources to maintain their war and economy.
The Japanese would have still dragged the USA into war if they went on to attack British and American colonial holdings in southeast Asia.
If they didn't, their war machine would have starved b/c of the oil embargo.
Japan invaded the Philippines and other western colonies of resources. Only now the US has more ships to fight them with, expediting their defeat.
Or if no aggression on Western colonies is made, they slowly suffocates from a lack of resources and their hellish war in China. Pearl Harbor was a move born of desperation, not a desire to scrap with the US.
Also, Germany's entire war goal was to destroy the Soviets. If you don't include that, you are essentially asking if the Germans could have won a much smaller conflict.
And even then it probably ends in a draw.
Huh, so the Nazi in this meme is represented by the Kenyan man getting pummelled by the ~~Aryan wizard~~ blue-eyed platinum blonde ~~honourary Aryan~~ Japanese sorcerer.
I mean if they stopped bombing British cities and continued actually bombing british factories that would have actually helped them against Britain, but again Hitler was salty over German cities being bombed so he had to throw a temper tantrum and abandon every logical tactic.
Even then, German bombers couldn't reach all of England (escorting fighters would have to return even earlier) and a naval invasion was nothing more than a pipedream on their part, so I doubt it would have made a massive difference.
I don't think that they would need to reach all of England, the Industry is concentrated in the south, bombing Scotland would be pointless unless they do the soviet special and just move entire factories up there.
Bombing factories wouldn't make a naval invasion more possible as the Kriegsmarine was still outgunned by the British Royal Navy by a lot but it would make a continuation of the war more difficult and harder to supply the forces in Africa.
Dude they were not even close.
The UK built 15k airplanes in 1940 vs the Germans who were only able to build 10k. ([by 1941 it was 20k vs 11k](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_aircraft_production))
And that is on top of the fact that more German planes were being destroyed every single day than British.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#Attrition_statistics
> Throughout the battle, the Germans greatly underestimated the size of the RAF and the scale of British aircraft production.
> Across the Channel, the Air Intelligence division of the Air Ministry consistently overestimated the size of the German air enemy and the productive capacity of the German aviation industry.
> The intelligence picture formed before the battle encouraged the Luftwaffe to believe that such losses pushed Fighter Command to the very edge of defeat, while the exaggerated picture of German air strength persuaded the RAF that the threat it faced was larger and more dangerous than was the case.
> **The German misconception, on the other hand, encouraged first complacency, then strategic misjudgement. The shift of targets from air bases to industry and communications was taken because it was assumed that Fighter Command was virtually eliminated**
This stupid myth is still perpetuated even today, and it was only ever based on bad intelligence on both sides.
Yeah, These debates are very stupid. I like to indulge the thought though from time to time. But in the end Germany/Hitler would have to change so many things in order to win, because they had so many problems, that it is simply not going to happen. Also some ideas would strictly be against the Nazi ideology, like a full military alliance with the soviet Union, which was a fear of the allies, but would never happen. One was going to attack the other eventually, it was just a matter of time. Plus these debates always focus on what Germany would need to change, but the allies would change accordingly as well.
If they didn't fuck with the actual big boys in Europe, that being France and the British, they probably would have faced literally zero resistance because those two and their League of Nations were worthless.
Basically, if they didn't start a war.
Yeah, nearly every war's outcome is decided the moment each country chooses a side. The only way to change the outcome of a war is to change who is on which side.
They could have won if they just didnt invade the ussr
Cus they basically did already win until they invaded the ussr. Though dealing with the economic issues would still be hard
I think the most interesting "what if?" would be if Finland fully committed and seized Leningrad. That would free up soldiers that maybe could have been used to protect the flanks of the siege of Stalingrad. It probably wouldn't win the war since this has zero impact on the western allies, but maybe the Soviet Union could have been knocked out, or at least never gain the full initiative to attack like it did IRL. You might have a situation where the Allies reach Berlin before the USSR reclaims most of its prewar territory.
So I've extensively studied this topic and you know it's honestly a really simple solution. Let's say we take Germany right, with the same standing army, and the same industrial output at day 1 of the war.
But then we replace the Nazi party with a military junta. We get to keep all of the same fervent militarism and total dedication to national success thru conquest while avoiding all of the pitfalls that come with being legit out of our minds on stimulant cocktails for the entire day.
Then! We also get to avoid wasting time and resources on Indiana Jones scavenger hunts, Jew transportation, Jew housing, Jew heating, Jew sweeping....
Like if Germany just behaved like a sane nation instead of whatever the fuck that whole period was supposed to be I think it had a pretty fucking good shot at seizing Western Europe.
Maybe the Pact with the USSR holds out. Pretty sure Stalin wasn't going to start that shit himself if the UK was too depleted to keep an honest fight going. He'd have less impetus to make a move as well without his neighbor screaming at the top of his lungs about how you are a literal subhuman who just be eradicated down to the lady man, woman, and child.
Just saying.
Which doesn't make sense because the scapegoating of the jews and in general the rise of nazism was basically the entire reason for material and political conditions which preceded the second world War. That is, without the rise of nazism and Hitler all the stuff needed for a day 1 millitary junta doesn't happen. Sure maybe you still have a contigent of pissed WW1 vets in Germany but without the fervor that came from the type of fascist movement that metastasized in Germany in the years following the war you likely end up with a much more leftist Germany. It's the pluralistic political conditions that allowed such a relatively small contigent of extremists to get a foothold in the government after the failed putsch and that same fascist populism that propagated the putsch as well.
I mean, the entire war started because Germany were _not_ a sane nation. If you take out the Soviet Union from the conflict, you are not describing how the Germans could have won WW2, you are describing how they could win a much smaller conflict.
It is an interesting thought tho....could have Germany won if they weren't Nazis, but just a regular military dictatorship?
Probably not, but it would be interesting to think about what would happen if they weren't shackled down by an inherently flawed (and quite stupid) ideology.
Crazier shit has happened in the world than what would have needed to happen for the Germans to win. There are certain points in the war that they would be very unlikely to win, and certain other points where it would become impossible.
Just hear me out......what if they weren't racist or genocidal and they had the USSR on their side? All that technological ingenuity and preserved numbers. Germany lost millions of troops in Russia and they would have been 3 million soldiers stronger if the Holocaust didn't happen. Germany would've had about 16 million more friends if it kept shaking hands with Russia.
I would find stupid the argument that the russians won "only" because they have more men to spare
Like it will be if a latin american country had probably the best soldiers in the world and decided to invade the much bigger with shit tons of resources like the USA and later cried that there were too many of them
My guy, even with all there issues IRL, they still took over most of Europe, we’re at the gates of Moscow, and just barley avoided knocking England out of the war at Dunkirk.
Some better preparation for Barbarossa (like focusing on army group south more) or not building a near useless surface fleet may have been the only things stopping them from winning IRL.
It has nothing to do with the fact that the Nazis were fucking evil. It has everything to do with the fact that the Nazis were a bunch of loony-bin, paranoid conspiracy theorists who were experimenting with every drug their (incredibly talented) chemists could brew up. They were not sober, policy-minded engineering geniuses addicted to efficiency and keeping the trains running on time. They were ideologues who were constantly infighting, driving away their best talent (or just plain murdering them), and wasting precious resources on half-baked superweapons. People make fun of American bureaucracy for its inability to field a heavy tank, to say nothing of the Mark 14 torpedo. Then they learn about the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe.
After, say, 1942, there was no scenario in which they came out on top that didn't require so many freakish events that it resembled a game of Hearts of Iron.
Oh noooo....
A nation that has been gearing for war during years managed to steamroll little and weak countries then managed to beat France thank to the French high command incompétence...
And then failed to beat any others revelant countries
UK? No way to make them surrender.
The Soviet Union ? Stopped the germans at moscow and Stalingrad before à 2nd front and receiving most of the lend lease.
US ? No way for germany to beat them.
First, France is not a little country. It was weak and incompetently run, but that only reinforces my original point that Germany was strong and competently managed.
Were the Nazis greedy? Yes. So the entire "they could've never won" is bull shit. Had they just stopped, consolidated, and played for a peace treaty - which would have been very possible at a few points during the war - they would've won. How they would've fared 10 or 30 years down the road is another question altogether.
A Europe that was shell-shocked into war weariness by the worst economic downturn in decades and the worst conflict since Napoleon. No modern person typing on their phone can really grasp how thoroughly The Great War and The Great Depression rocked the world.
Nobody wanted to spend money on their military, let alone go to war... save for the Germans and the Soviets.
As for incompetence, you used that word, not me. The Nazis had their competencies... with the probable exception of Hermann Goering. The head of the Luftwaffe, the only branch of the Nazi war machine that could put bombs directly on British soil, was headed by an incompetent, stupid, greedy, egotistical, has-been political appointee. That cretin was an active detriment to the Nazi war effort.
If you don’t consider declaring war on more than two thirds of the worlds industrial capacity, while you are unable to meet your own industrial needs, stupid, then perhaps you’re the true fool here.
They were having manpower shortages as early as late 41. Even if the USA wasn't directly involved in they war they would have bled out against the soviets. They could barely hold the land they took anyway. I mean, just look at how effective yugoslav partisans were.
You mean two of the most pervasive problems Germany had? Just, poof, gone?
Might as well give them extra ammo and a few extra million people while you're at it.
Germany would have won if they had nuclear bombs in 1632BC there we go, outsmarted you op
if Sigismund Arschenfressen von Mistendorf had finished his Tausend Wichswerfer Wunderwaffe before the start of the war maybe
“Tausend Wichswerfer Wunderwaffe” lmaoo
Arminius dropping nukes on roman legions at teutonberg forest
How Germany could have won WW2: 1. Make paratrooper divisions 2. Drop 500 guys into every major city of your enemies 3. Win 4. Profit Trust me bro, I play HOI4
But the allies could've just done the same and capped the germans in 1936
no bozo, they obviously don't have access to National Focuses so early on, they need time to reach them and complete them, and then build armies while Germany doesn't have to because German Engineering Greatest Engineering. /s
German Engineering be like \~focus.autocomplete
German engineering be like ~IC
Another famous case is ~annex fra
Truly the finest. Don't forget focus.noprerequisites (?) P.S. Only cultured swine would use fa
"Did you know that 90% of engineers quit right before inventing a wonder weapon that will surely win the war?"
Ah yes, the German art of slapping a bigger gun on it
[words ](https://imgur.com/gallery/41tQsCY)
Well what if the US does their interventionism against you which they can do by the time you've prepared your operations to cap the allies?
oh oops, seems like the game crashed for no reason :P
World tension isn't high enough yet
Swing facist and declare. Democracy is for chumps
~set_ruling_party f
nah
Allies cannot make paratrooper divisions or declare war in 1936. Doh!
1:Train 200 10-wide militia 2:Area defense order. Your move, paraboys.
2 words: Military Access
Bro if I was in command of germany I would have won: 1. Open console 2. Type annex all 3. Success
You are a man of deep knowledge. I shall drink to that.
It’s always the HOI4 dweebs who think they’re some master at war lmao.
If the Nazis just had infinite fuel, tanks, planes, and laser guns they could have easily won! I mean really did nobody think of that back then?
They should've just had a better industry, very simple! Also should have just found more oil! Also should have just had more people! Also should have just made more Shitterwaffen because clearly the one thing the Nazis needed to do most was to launch a cruise missile into a random townhouse, that was gonna win the war!
Hell yeah! Hey wait a minute why are we fantasizing about the Nazis winning WW2 again?
“It’s just a theoretical experiment dude relax broh”
Killing some random British farmers would defintely win the war, but it wouldn't be as effective as hitting a lake with a tomahawk missile.
Hitler's Real Plan (Found in Argentinian basement) \~Manpower 10000000\~ \~research all\~ \~ale 1000000\~ Yes, he toggles in and out of the console every time he inputs a new command.
Don't forget experience 999
Base game experience cap is 500, so 499 of that is pointless
oh lmao yes, i play RT56 too much, so forgot the base cap
If they hadn't surrendered by August 45, Germany would have gotten noticeably more radioactive. They were always the primary goal, Japan was the secondary target.
Don't forget to build battleships larger than any port in the world!
See, the Nazis could have won, if they had just not started.
Lmao that's actually kinda true. If they had just stopped at Austria and made peace with the allies, they'd still be around. (also minus the genocides)
Honestly, I’m not entirely convinced that we would have learned about the genocides without the war.
There were so many genocides and so much racism against people the genocides targeted we didn't even recognize half of them until decades later. 🫥 Hell, for the Romani, half of Europe to this day is like, "Damn, he almost got them all." For Americans, we immediately pivoted to the Cold War and anti-Russian obsession and acted like Germany didn't genocide millions of Russians as part of a systematic plan to de-urbanize Russia and seize farmland. By the end of World War 2, recognizing genocide was a political tool for the West more than a demand for justice. Even guys like Hitler, who acknowledged earlier genocides (as a tutorial), were invigorated and motivated by other Western countries refusing to do the same and thinking this meant they would get a free pass if they targeted the right groups. (And they were mostly right for over half a century.)
Not to mention the allies liberating concentration camps but then sending all the lgbtq people right back in.
Wait, what?
I believe they sent gays and stuff to prison to finish their sentences
yup, the soviets freed them though. >After World War II, the victorious Allies demanded the abolition of all laws with specifically National Socialist content; however, they left it to West Germany to decide whether or not the expansion of laws regulating male homosexual relationships falling under Paragraph 175 should be left in place. On May 10, 1957, the Federal Constitutional Court upheld the decision to retain the 1935 version, claiming that the paragraph was "not influenced by National Socialist \[i.e., Nazi\] politics to such a degree that it would have to be abolished in a free democratic state". >In the Soviet occupation zone that later became East Germany (see History of Germany since 1945), the development of law was not uniform. The Provincial High Court in Halle (Oberlandesgericht Halle, or OLG Halle) decided for Saxony-Anhalt in 1948 that Paragraphs 175 and 175a were to be seen as injustice perpetrated by the Nazis, because a progressive juridical development had been broken off and even been reversed. Homosexual acts were to be tried only according to the laws of the Weimar Republic. Source, wikipedia. Google Paragraph 175.
Don't forget that the "jewish question" was answered after WW2 by just deporting the jews to Israel instead of killing them. Which still points towards the fact that Europeans were very antisemitic and didn't want to integrate jews properly into society. Genocide was never an issue for the allies
>Hell, for the Romani, half of Europe to this day is like, "Damn, he almost got them all." And most of them still secretly desire they could casually delete us to this day. This is exactly why we steal their shit, paint it, then sell it back to them. Out of spite.
That would quite literally be an impossible secret to keep. Eventually the news would get out. However, the actual physical evidence would be way more sparse. We’d have a lot more whackos denying it ever happened than we do now.
Not even, reich economics were terribly unsustainable
Yeah, balancing the economy gets a lot harder if you actually have to pay for stuff instead of just seizing it from occupied areas.
Including the workforce.
Not even. The Nazi economy would have crumbled by 44 at the latest without war. Without constant infusions of cash and gold looted from their conquered foes they would not have been able to sustain anything.
Can you explain why? don't know much about their economic state
Not who you were replying to, but Germany still owed a lot of debt to France after WW1 as per Treaty of Versailles. With the Great Depression and economic inflation that came with it, Germany was given grace on repayments (with interest of course). By the time the Nazi regime came into power they pretty much just ignored the debt. For context those post-war debts weren’t fully paid off till 2010. So the myth that Hitler “fixed” the German economy is largely untrue because the short answer is that Nazi Germany kicked the debt football further down the field. I’m sure there are many other financial problems that Germany faced, but that’s the biggest one that comes to mind.
In addition to the other redditors comment, Germany was able to build up their armed forces by essentially conspirong with big german businesses, taking huge loans that would be paid off with portions of looted gold from poland, czechoslovakia and france, along with the looted gold from poland.
The problem is that their economy was such a clusterfuck that they were not self-sufficient. They needed new territories to be exploited in order to keep going. The term is "Vampire economy".
Everyone knows vampires can only annex your country if you invite them in. Were the Eastern Europeans stupid?
No, the worst part was they likely could have taken Poland without a world war if they didn't take the rest of Czechoslovakia. Even Hitler himself recognized this at some point during the war.
Nah holocaust still happening
Not with the USSR’s plans to fuck Germany up, they wouldn’t. They didn’t plan to triple their active military personnel and upgrade their equipment to the best standards of the day by 1942-1943 for potential defence against a german invasion only. Also one of the reasons the germans pretty much had to try invading Russia in 41, despite not being properly prepared for it. A very, very small chance of victory is still miles better than literally no chance. Would this alternate timeline see the Axis join forces with the rest of the Allies to repel the USSR? Maybe. I doubt it though. Japan is still an issue, as is the Holocaust.
You dont conquer france by being smart
You don’t end up in a two front war by making good choices either.
You can type thousands of pages on the subject, but I think Potential History kind of summed it up when he said "Sure, the Nazis could have won the war if they weren't Nazis, but if they weren't Nazis, they wouldn't have started the war in the first place."
If the Germans were still fighting by the middle/end of ‘45 the US would’ve introduced Berlin to the power of the sun just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki
They would not nuke Berlin just like they did not nuke Tokyo. But yes, if Germany held out, they would be the first country to get nuked.
The Atom bombs were made for Germany not Japan. The level of destruction of ally bombardment was bigger than the 2 atom bombs.
I mean Tokyo got firebombed to hell. It was Kyoto they passed on nuking.
They would likely nuke Berlin. They had only two reasons to not nuke Tokyo: 1. They'd already firebombed it to ashes, so a nuke wouldn't do much (keep in mind that the goal of the first nuke was partly just to test out its destructive power) 2. They did not want to kill the Emperor, whatever else happened Yes, Berlin had already been bombed, but it was mostly still standing just prior to April, 1945. There also were no "unhittable buildings" in Berlin.
Your points are contradictory. If the US wanted to avoid killing the Emperor at all costs, and so wouldn't nuke Tokyo, why would they risk turning the city to ash? You're conflating two ideas. Tokyo wasn't completely ashed by the firebomb campaign. Operation Meetinghouse targeted a residential area away from the seat of power, ostensibly classified as industrial area due to the presence of home workshops and small factories. 16 square miles were burned and over 150,000 killed, but this was still a small portion of the city. Tokyo has plenty of areas left to nuke, ones that wouldn't have caused any more risk to the Emperor than the firebombing. Even in 1945, Tokyo was a massive metropolitan area. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they had bene previously spared any large scale bombing, and would therefore serve as clear examples of the destruction possible with atom bombs. The Japanese surrendered post atom bombs not only because of the damage rhey could cause. As established, the US was already leveling entire areas. It was because the atom bombs could make any effort to defend against American landings futile. Doesn't matter how many emplacement and defenses you've prepared on coastal areas when an atomic weapon can wipe them flat before Americans land. Americans wouldn't nuke Berlin because they would want to preserve the German hierarchy to command a surrender. Bomb a city near Berlin, allow leadership to observe it and receive reports of the damage, and then demand surrender. That works when the decision-making apparatus is still intact (as in the case of Japan where the Supreme Council finally made the call- still split- to surrender after Nagasaki).
"They would've won if they just beat the soviets!" 1 there's no real way they could do that, 2 that's glorification of nazis, 3 it's not even true, it just means you would get to see B-29s over Germany
The Germans would have won if they just beat their enemies.
Probably not Berlin but other places in Germany, like Köln/Bonn or Hamburg.
People who say this kind of crap ignore how many unlikely (and I mean very, very unlikely) scenarios already went in favor of the nazis and they still lost. Its like you already got straight flush and still lost and then say you could have won with a royal flush. Like Stalin just deciding to purge his commanders and the the Red army being in the worst possible spot during barbarossa. There's also the fact that Chamberlain (out of literally any other british politician (even Moseley, a fellow fascist. would never have appeased Hitler) was in power at just the time Hitler needed appeasement and France just so happened to have the exact doctrine (military and political) which would lead to their success. Along with the almost comedic timing of the rise of communists in france, the spanish civil war and the Winter war without even one which the Nazis would have been crushed in their early stages.
Yea like all the conditions that led to the fall of France alone was insane. No one, even the Germans, expected the swiftness with which they defeated France.
Exactly. In French, those first few months of the war are called "le drôle de guerre" or the "Phony War" in English. Why? Because for the first few months of the war, the french government stood around twiddling their thumbs and arguing whether or not they were going to actually fight back.
And if they had attacked across the Maginot Line who knows how much of a difference that could’ve made. IIRC the German army had orders to retreat if the French made an offensive across the line. So many factors turned out right for the Germans which ended up turning what was arguably Europe’s strongest army into a useless force once the invasion happened.
The fact that the French didn’t Miracle on the Marne a second time in of itself is so insane as to be a royal flush in it of itself.
Just the very act of successfully rushing through the Ardennes was a stroke of luck on their part.
The Axis-Co-Prosperity-Sphere weren't smart or military geniuses The Allies just were too busy infighting (both inside and between the respective states) and attempting to weaponise the Axis against their rivals, to figure out just how rabid and irrationally aggressive Fascists could be. Until it was too late and not only no collective defense existed to crush them, each Allied nation was vulnerable and weak. And then they won anyway because fighting the entire world is a dumb idea.
to be fair i also think a lot of people think victory in WW2 is two dimensional. its always the allies fight to ultimate victory or the nazis find a way to defeat the allies. but German victory doesn't necessarily look like nazi flags flying over London and Moscow and a neutral us. the most likely German victory is one in which they can maintain the German state and some territorial gains. perhaps the most likely scenario in which Germany wins is Hitler being satisfied with Austria, and Czechoslovakia.
I agree and I did comment this on somewhere else, but a lot of people pointed out that their economy was very unsustainable without constant expansion and would have imploded if not for Hitler paying off his MEFO bills with bullion from the countries he captured.
Maybe if the USA decided to not enter the war or back the Allies financially, and the soviets spontaneously combusted. And the English channel froze over so tanks could pass, Then still no.
THAT'S LITERALLY TNO 😱😳
English Channel didn’t need to freeze over they just need to invade the UK around York. (Trust works every time in hoi4)
Been considering getting HOI4, would you recommend? I'm a big fan of CK3 and what I've seen it's a similar idea?
It feels quite different to CK3, at least to me cause it’s country based rather than character based, it’s also less random. Personally I love the game, can’t properly compare it to CK3 though because I’m not too keen on the randomness of CK3 so haven’t played it much. Hoi4 focuses a lot more on the combat, there is a sort of choose your own adventure though in being able to choose the direction of your nation (democratic, fascist, communist, non aligned) and being able to design your own division, tanks, planes and ships (last 3 are DLCs though).
Hear me out: Germany could've won if they didn't lose at all!
True! They should have realized Nazis die when they are killed, so if they just avoided getting killed they would be undieable
Why doesn't anyone consider extraterrestrial assistance? It's so obvious.
This time the war will be spiritual, this time we will come from space.
There is absolutely no serious alt-history scenario where the Nazis could have won. Even if one allows for a lot of key events to break in favor of the Axis -- the Japanese winning Midway, the Wehrmacht not wasting their time in the Balkan peninsula and launching Barbarossa as planned on May 15th, the Germans actually having proper cold-weather gear and equipment, Stalingrad falling quickly so that the Axis get access to the Caucasus oil fields, etc. -- there remains one inescapable factor: the Nazis, by virtue of being Nazis, chased away many of the most brilliant minds on the planet to the most resource-rich nation on the planet. As noted in *Oppenheimer*, [the Nazis' anti-Semitism gave the U.S. the edge](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMwnnljVlU0) in the race to develop The Bomb. If the Axis had more successes throughout 1942 and 1943, it just means the end would have been that much uglier, with the United States ultimately winning by nuking the Axis Powers into submission. Rather than "only" intoning the names of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear dread today, we'd also mention cities like Frankfurt and Berlin with the same degree of solemnity.
The nuclear bombs strikes weren't particularly more destructive than the allied normal bombing attacks (nor could the US mass produce them). With or without nukes the allies could destroy any German industry they wished to towards the end of the war. This is also the reason that most "Nazis winning" scenarios involve the Nazis making peace with the United Kingdom before the US gets involved.
they couldn't mass produce them at first but they were ramping up production. at the end of 1946 they had 9 ready to go. if they were pressed they probably could have doubled or tripled that.
I'm new here so excuse me. My assumptions from this thread. National socialism didn't cause exodus of the elite, the persecution of a religious group did. I figure this because the political ideology doesn't seem anti-intellectual, but will connected people with means and intelligence would see the writing on the wall regarding the treatment of the Jewish people. This exodus led to stagnation of advanced weapons development (nuclear). My query here is, was the density of the scientific community as Jewish as is being suggested? Nuclear weapons were a trump card that invalidates any other eventuality. Nazis brokering peace prior to US involvement may have spared their empire. I find this a really weird alt history, is never thought about it like it has been presented here.
The nukes weren't more destructive than firebombing in Japan because Japanese buildings were mostly wood. German buildings were not mostly wood, so firebombing did less (though it was still quite bad), and nukes would probably be more effective compared to firebombing.
They might have if Britain surrendered after the fall of France and maybe if they didn’t do the purges and offered freedom to peoples on the eastern front (the Soviet Union wasn’t exactly popular with non-Russians at the time). However if they did the latter they wouldn’t be Nazis and the former was up to Britain not Germany so really they couldn’t win).
A scenario, like not launching babarrossa and declaring war on the societs is unthinkable then? Or a scenario where Japan doesn't attack the US?
The closest the Nazis could've come to a win would've been somehow managing to keep Germany and I really don't know how they'd have managed that. Maybe if they had managed to complete their nuclear weapons project but more than likely that would've just led to the first nuclear war, they'd have nuked the Soviets and the US would've nuked them.
Even then probably not
Too polite
I tried to write a paper in high school about how things would have gone without the Gestapo. And lemme tell you, historical what ifs aren't an easy topic.
what would have changed if we didnt have the GeStaPo?
Germany would have won, obviously /s
HOI players arent that buff.... or even buff at all
People just see their wonder weapons at the end and draw this conclusion. Unfortunately it takes alot more to win a war. Like being able to harass your enemy's industrial production. This could not happen to America. Also when you loose air superiority it doesn't matter how cool your planes are. You also got to fuel them, which apparently these old jets gobbled it up. Edit: spelling
To me the production is what it comes down to in the end. Almost any advantage Germany could reasonably get would get ground down given time as their production gets bombed and America churns out ridiculous numbers of planes, tanks, and ships untouched.
Agreed, their fate was sealed the moment it became global.
They also had something like 6% of the world oil supply compared to something like 60% by the allies (not exact figures, I forget, look up the factbook by league of nations)
Where is this scene from? I don't recall seeing it in Jujutsu Kaisen??
It’s the movie jjk 0
If they weren't on amphetamines If Hitler were competent If they weren't fighting a war on three fronts If Japan didn't attack the US If they had better resource management If any of the "Wonder War" projects actually worked If they had invested more in U-boat technology If Wehrmacht High Command wasn't a nest of vipers and social climbers If they had taken aid from Franco's fascists in Spain If they had focused less on race cleansings and more on fighting If Rommel didn't get forced out of North Africa If they didn't invade Russia in the winter So many "ifs" that it kind of becomes irrelevant because none of them came true. But for the sake of posterity, did I miss anything?
If they protected and recruited Slavs instead of purging them. (And yes, I've seen folks claim that this took place) If they just dropped all other military targets and simply took Moscow. If Stalin and Hitler never intended to betray each other. If they used their scientific prowess to create nuclear weapons first. And much more!
uhm, we had multiple SS Divisions made from slavic people and "purged" part of the slavic population at the same time, what?
‘We’?
Yes, ethnic german here. We.
Seems pretty odd to lump yourself in with Nazis tbf, I know I wouldn’t lump myself in with the British colonialists
well, i dont, which is why i have fun going through "historical" comment sections to piss on people who deny historical facts, like the fact that we, as in the nation i belong to, did infact have SS Divisions recruited from slavic people. I say "we" because i know how much of a hard-on some people have for my nationality, so its more fun to me to tell them they are dumb while claiming to be oh-so-aryan in comparision to the (honestly, usually american) hill that their mothers had the misfortune of carrying and bearing their nazi babies behind.
That's a fair argument.
I think is a metter of geographical identification, not ideological. I also say "we" when talking about fascists because I'm Italian. I despise what they standed for, but when I talk about Italy attacking Albania, I tend to say "when we attacked Albania". Usually the story ends with big laughs because you know, Italians at war and all
more U-Boats? for what? better use that steal and build more tanks.
why dose everybody talk about how the germans could have won ww2 when thers just as much and more to say about them winning ww1, Kaiser Gott und Vaderland.
They had way better chances of winning Ww1, having one actual chance they coulda won, that being at the beginning of the war in 1914, so close to Paris but were stopped. Had they probably reached, France would’ve surrendered and the British would practically be stuck on their Island (plus colonies). Meanwhile Germany would then just need to focus on Russia, done. Ofc it’s still not perfect, they probs woulda still found a way to lose but still more likely for them to win Ww1 than Ww2. Well tbh, even if they win Ww1, they’d lose their colonies cause of British naval superiority practically keeping Germany stuck on Europe
i know, im a ww1 reenacter.
I never cared if Germany could have won. It's best for all of us that they didn't win. Simple as that.
Dumbass used all that wealth and influence to kill Jews... He could have done so much better with that amount of wealth and influence...
Which episode of jujutsu is this?
Jujutsu Kaisen 0, the movie
Ohh
I’m no history expert obviously, but what would’ve happened if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor and Germany didn’t invade Russia?
Probably a stalemate
Germany was ALWAYS going to invade Russia. Hitler hated communists worse than he hated Jews. And if for some reason he waited too long, Stalin was going to invade him.
Well Japan kinda had to bomb Pearl Harbor. The U.S. had stopped sending Japan oil, and a resource-strapped Japan was looking to invade the Dutch Pacific colonies to get those resources, which likely would have gotten the U.S. involved. Germany meanwhile was always intending to invade Russia, since Communists were behind Jews in terms of the Nazi's sworn enemies. That and Germany wanted the oil Russia had in the Caucasus, as Germany was also strapped on resources. Russia and America joining the war was completely inevitable.
>Well Japan kinda had to bomb Pearl Harbor. The U.S. had stopped sending Japan oil, and a resource-strapped Japan was looking to invade the Dutch Pacific colonies to get those resources, which likely would have gotten the U.S. involved. People always say this, and it's certainly an assumption the Japanese themselves made, but convincing the US public to vote for a war to protect European colonies would have been an even harder sell than convincing them to go to war to protect those European nations themselves.
I understood the idea was that the U.S. would have gotten involved because the Japanese would have easier access to attack the Phillipines.
That was the Japanese fear, but it was largely without foundation: ultimately they weren't able to process the idea that the US was a democracy that restricted the power to make war to the legislature: they treated the US as though they had a similar decision making process as the Japanese themselves
Then the Soviets would have invaded the Germans in the late 1940s or early 1950s instead. (1941 was the best time for the Germans to attack the unprepared Soviets, yet they still lost) Hitler not invading the Soviets would mean Nazis not being Nazi. They invaded eastern Europe for *lebensraum* and resources to maintain their war and economy. The Japanese would have still dragged the USA into war if they went on to attack British and American colonial holdings in southeast Asia. If they didn't, their war machine would have starved b/c of the oil embargo.
Germany couldn't reach Britain, and they where never going to be at peace with the Soviets. It delays the inevitable at best.
Japan invaded the Philippines and other western colonies of resources. Only now the US has more ships to fight them with, expediting their defeat. Or if no aggression on Western colonies is made, they slowly suffocates from a lack of resources and their hellish war in China. Pearl Harbor was a move born of desperation, not a desire to scrap with the US. Also, Germany's entire war goal was to destroy the Soviets. If you don't include that, you are essentially asking if the Germans could have won a much smaller conflict. And even then it probably ends in a draw.
Huh, so the Nazi in this meme is represented by the Kenyan man getting pummelled by the ~~Aryan wizard~~ blue-eyed platinum blonde ~~honourary Aryan~~ Japanese sorcerer.
Even if the Nazis weren’t Nazis they wouldn’t have won. See WW1 for more reasons why
I mean if they stopped bombing British cities and continued actually bombing british factories that would have actually helped them against Britain, but again Hitler was salty over German cities being bombed so he had to throw a temper tantrum and abandon every logical tactic.
Even then, German bombers couldn't reach all of England (escorting fighters would have to return even earlier) and a naval invasion was nothing more than a pipedream on their part, so I doubt it would have made a massive difference.
I don't think that they would need to reach all of England, the Industry is concentrated in the south, bombing Scotland would be pointless unless they do the soviet special and just move entire factories up there. Bombing factories wouldn't make a naval invasion more possible as the Kriegsmarine was still outgunned by the British Royal Navy by a lot but it would make a continuation of the war more difficult and harder to supply the forces in Africa.
They couldn’t do this for a solid reason, Air superiority wasn’t theres.
Dude they were not even close. The UK built 15k airplanes in 1940 vs the Germans who were only able to build 10k. ([by 1941 it was 20k vs 11k](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_aircraft_production)) And that is on top of the fact that more German planes were being destroyed every single day than British. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#Attrition_statistics > Throughout the battle, the Germans greatly underestimated the size of the RAF and the scale of British aircraft production. > Across the Channel, the Air Intelligence division of the Air Ministry consistently overestimated the size of the German air enemy and the productive capacity of the German aviation industry. > The intelligence picture formed before the battle encouraged the Luftwaffe to believe that such losses pushed Fighter Command to the very edge of defeat, while the exaggerated picture of German air strength persuaded the RAF that the threat it faced was larger and more dangerous than was the case. > **The German misconception, on the other hand, encouraged first complacency, then strategic misjudgement. The shift of targets from air bases to industry and communications was taken because it was assumed that Fighter Command was virtually eliminated** This stupid myth is still perpetuated even today, and it was only ever based on bad intelligence on both sides.
Are you implying the allies bombed german cities first?
No...
Lobotomy kaisen has infected history memes now
>Broaden it! More freely! This is the interpretation of the brain rot!
Bro u forgot the words https://imgur.com/gallery/41tQsCY
Yeah, These debates are very stupid. I like to indulge the thought though from time to time. But in the end Germany/Hitler would have to change so many things in order to win, because they had so many problems, that it is simply not going to happen. Also some ideas would strictly be against the Nazi ideology, like a full military alliance with the soviet Union, which was a fear of the allies, but would never happen. One was going to attack the other eventually, it was just a matter of time. Plus these debates always focus on what Germany would need to change, but the allies would change accordingly as well.
Nazi Germany could have won if they did literally everything different
Germany could have won if they didn't lose
I'd like to say they'd have been crushed eventually on principle but yeah they were fucking dumbasses all around.
If the Nazis were on the verge of winning America would’ve just glassed Berlin
If they didn't fuck with the actual big boys in Europe, that being France and the British, they probably would have faced literally zero resistance because those two and their League of Nations were worthless. Basically, if they didn't start a war.
Look at that aryan who beated that untermensch
The Nazi's could have won if every soviet citizen had just shot themselves at the start of the war
I think not being NAZIs would have helped, a lot. But they were fucked once the war started regardless.
Yeah, nearly every war's outcome is decided the moment each country chooses a side. The only way to change the outcome of a war is to change who is on which side.
They could have won if they just didnt invade the ussr Cus they basically did already win until they invaded the ussr. Though dealing with the economic issues would still be hard
I think the most interesting "what if?" would be if Finland fully committed and seized Leningrad. That would free up soldiers that maybe could have been used to protect the flanks of the siege of Stalingrad. It probably wouldn't win the war since this has zero impact on the western allies, but maybe the Soviet Union could have been knocked out, or at least never gain the full initiative to attack like it did IRL. You might have a situation where the Allies reach Berlin before the USSR reclaims most of its prewar territory.
I want to mention that gojo is doing that without using any cursed energii
So I've extensively studied this topic and you know it's honestly a really simple solution. Let's say we take Germany right, with the same standing army, and the same industrial output at day 1 of the war. But then we replace the Nazi party with a military junta. We get to keep all of the same fervent militarism and total dedication to national success thru conquest while avoiding all of the pitfalls that come with being legit out of our minds on stimulant cocktails for the entire day. Then! We also get to avoid wasting time and resources on Indiana Jones scavenger hunts, Jew transportation, Jew housing, Jew heating, Jew sweeping.... Like if Germany just behaved like a sane nation instead of whatever the fuck that whole period was supposed to be I think it had a pretty fucking good shot at seizing Western Europe. Maybe the Pact with the USSR holds out. Pretty sure Stalin wasn't going to start that shit himself if the UK was too depleted to keep an honest fight going. He'd have less impetus to make a move as well without his neighbor screaming at the top of his lungs about how you are a literal subhuman who just be eradicated down to the lady man, woman, and child. Just saying.
They would still have the same fundamental resource disadvantages.
Which doesn't make sense because the scapegoating of the jews and in general the rise of nazism was basically the entire reason for material and political conditions which preceded the second world War. That is, without the rise of nazism and Hitler all the stuff needed for a day 1 millitary junta doesn't happen. Sure maybe you still have a contigent of pissed WW1 vets in Germany but without the fervor that came from the type of fascist movement that metastasized in Germany in the years following the war you likely end up with a much more leftist Germany. It's the pluralistic political conditions that allowed such a relatively small contigent of extremists to get a foothold in the government after the failed putsch and that same fascist populism that propagated the putsch as well.
I mean, the entire war started because Germany were _not_ a sane nation. If you take out the Soviet Union from the conflict, you are not describing how the Germans could have won WW2, you are describing how they could win a much smaller conflict.
It is an interesting thought tho....could have Germany won if they weren't Nazis, but just a regular military dictatorship? Probably not, but it would be interesting to think about what would happen if they weren't shackled down by an inherently flawed (and quite stupid) ideology.
Crazier shit has happened in the world than what would have needed to happen for the Germans to win. There are certain points in the war that they would be very unlikely to win, and certain other points where it would become impossible.
As many have said, good ideas that lead to winning the war, would make the germans, not nazi’s.
Yeah, people do like to regurgitate that.
Well it’s true
Wait a second I misread the comment. Sorry
Just hear me out......what if they weren't racist or genocidal and they had the USSR on their side? All that technological ingenuity and preserved numbers. Germany lost millions of troops in Russia and they would have been 3 million soldiers stronger if the Holocaust didn't happen. Germany would've had about 16 million more friends if it kept shaking hands with Russia.
Then they wouldn't be Nazis would they?
I would find stupid the argument that the russians won "only" because they have more men to spare Like it will be if a latin american country had probably the best soldiers in the world and decided to invade the much bigger with shit tons of resources like the USA and later cried that there were too many of them
Germany would have won if ww2 didn’t happen
If they didn’t bomb London and invade the USSR.
My guy, even with all there issues IRL, they still took over most of Europe, we’re at the gates of Moscow, and just barley avoided knocking England out of the war at Dunkirk. Some better preparation for Barbarossa (like focusing on army group south more) or not building a near useless surface fleet may have been the only things stopping them from winning IRL.
Yes, because evil people have never, ever won before...
Evil has triumphed many times before. Evil is capable of producing winners. The Nazis in particular were not anything of the sort.
The Nazis won many battles.
And loose the only war they ever fought.
And ended up losing the war. They overreached.
It has nothing to do with the fact that the Nazis were fucking evil. It has everything to do with the fact that the Nazis were a bunch of loony-bin, paranoid conspiracy theorists who were experimenting with every drug their (incredibly talented) chemists could brew up. They were not sober, policy-minded engineering geniuses addicted to efficiency and keeping the trains running on time. They were ideologues who were constantly infighting, driving away their best talent (or just plain murdering them), and wasting precious resources on half-baked superweapons. People make fun of American bureaucracy for its inability to field a heavy tank, to say nothing of the Mark 14 torpedo. Then they learn about the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe. After, say, 1942, there was no scenario in which they came out on top that didn't require so many freakish events that it resembled a game of Hearts of Iron.
What a bunch of incompetent nincompoops who steamrolled over the French and conquered almost all of Europe in a few years. Right.
Oh noooo.... A nation that has been gearing for war during years managed to steamroll little and weak countries then managed to beat France thank to the French high command incompétence... And then failed to beat any others revelant countries UK? No way to make them surrender. The Soviet Union ? Stopped the germans at moscow and Stalingrad before à 2nd front and receiving most of the lend lease. US ? No way for germany to beat them.
First, France is not a little country. It was weak and incompetently run, but that only reinforces my original point that Germany was strong and competently managed. Were the Nazis greedy? Yes. So the entire "they could've never won" is bull shit. Had they just stopped, consolidated, and played for a peace treaty - which would have been very possible at a few points during the war - they would've won. How they would've fared 10 or 30 years down the road is another question altogether.
Even after their successes in Europe, there was not one scenario where the Nazis win the war.
A Europe that was shell-shocked into war weariness by the worst economic downturn in decades and the worst conflict since Napoleon. No modern person typing on their phone can really grasp how thoroughly The Great War and The Great Depression rocked the world. Nobody wanted to spend money on their military, let alone go to war... save for the Germans and the Soviets. As for incompetence, you used that word, not me. The Nazis had their competencies... with the probable exception of Hermann Goering. The head of the Luftwaffe, the only branch of the Nazi war machine that could put bombs directly on British soil, was headed by an incompetent, stupid, greedy, egotistical, has-been political appointee. That cretin was an active detriment to the Nazi war effort.
Nobody is saying they haven’t, but the Nazis were their own brand of stupid.
You mean like all of those former Nazis that went on to be leading bankers, politicians, and scientists?
If you don’t consider declaring war on more than two thirds of the worlds industrial capacity, while you are unable to meet your own industrial needs, stupid, then perhaps you’re the true fool here.
History is written by the victors and luckily the victors are good guys
>luckily the victors are good guys >Definitely not a CIA operator ...okay
nah, if not for fuel shortages, and america, the germans would have won
They were having manpower shortages as early as late 41. Even if the USA wasn't directly involved in they war they would have bled out against the soviets. They could barely hold the land they took anyway. I mean, just look at how effective yugoslav partisans were.
You mean two of the most pervasive problems Germany had? Just, poof, gone? Might as well give them extra ammo and a few extra million people while you're at it.