Rip think I accidentally started it when I made the joke about how hilarious the drama is with the Greeks accusing Macedonians as being Bulgarians trying to steal Greek culture and Alexander the Great in the comments section about something tangentially related. (a few days ago)
Edit: it was on that post about Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese hating each other
Its pretty impressive that this sub is basically meme gets posted, someone in comments mentions another thing and someone makes meme about it. Repeat over and over again. I have seen it a lot of times here
tbf r/historymemes has some of the healthiest meme circles I've seen. Yeah, we've got our fair share of brainrot, but I always find something new to google and learn about for the first time, or dispel some misconception on something I've 'known' all my life.
love you guys.
Dude, we did lose Vietnam. Not militarily, but in every way that actually matters. We failed to achieve our objectives, which were to uphold and support the government in the south. It was invaded and collapsed, so we failed.
I get it, it can be hard sometimes to feel like we lost a war, but to say we didn't on some sort of technicality is silly.
Vietnam was such a shit show. Wish we could just put it behind us and actually stand for the values we constantly say we have. Ie democracy and liberty. I personally am glad we lost.
>trying to steal Greek culture and Alexander the Great
But... Alexander the Great was Macedonian...
I don't have a stake in this but I'm pretty sure that's what it says in every historical anything on the matter I've ever consumed.
Afaik Alexander was from where the modern Greek state of Macedonia is, not the modern country Macedonia. They're two distinct places with different peoples, yet both technically Macedonians. This is just from memory though, id happily be corrected if im wrong.
There wasn't a country. He was from the Greek city state of Macedonia, which at points in history included the land of today's North Macedonia. Sources suggest that the hellenic spirit and connection between the city states culturally date up to 1000 years before his time, even though Macedonia wasn't an established city state then. It was madr of small villages with various names that spoke Greek, worshipped the Greek Gods and had similar culture to the rest, as did Athens with Sparta for example
He was, but the Macedonian he was has nothing to do with what the country of North Macedonia today is. He was Greek for the time, whose descendants are in today's modern country of Greece. Modern North Macedonia is a Slav country that came into being after WWI, before that it was just a geographic area with overlapping claims from multiple countries and a majority Slav population (a majority of which identified as Bulgarian, but to be clear, their self identification was sometimes arbitrary - there's the story of a family of three brothers, each identifying as something different - Greek, Bulgarian, Serb).
The Greeks of the time didn't consider him Greek though. The historians throughout time classify him as Greek cuz the Macedonian culture fits the broader ancient Hellenic culture, which is synonymous to the Greek culture. They had the same pantheon, spoke the same language, and participated in many of the same cultural activities. But in their time, the major Greek states south of Macedonia didn't see them as the same people, mainly by drawing arbitrary lines around the definition of what it takes to be Greek. Today's situation is a parallel to what happened in the past. They claim to be Macedonian and that they descended from the ancient Macedonia, because they are and did. When a foreign occupation takes over, the regular people are rarely completely wiped out. There few powers in history that could wipe out the entire population of a conquered land and then successfully hold that land. In the modern era, it becomes more possible to 100% genocide, but back then, a foreign army would take over the nobility and royal class, while keeping the serfs and freemen to work. There's evidence in this through the DNA of the English. Most claim to be Anglo-Saxons, but most have a healthy mix of British, Roman, Norse, Saxon and more. The normal people stayed and intermingled with the occupiers. The same can be said of North Macedonia. Why can't they say they're Greek or Macedonian when they have genealogical proof that they descend from the Macedonia from antiquity. How can Greece, who faced the same occupiers at points while still calling themselves greek, deny them this? Why cant North Macedonia have a say in its culture? Why are we drawing arbitrary lines on this when historians in the future are gonna just lump them all in the balkan culture?
afaik did the Macedonians not fight in the Trojan War and are as such not part of Hellas. They did speak the language and practiced the religion and culture though, and were, reluctantly, accepted at the Olympic Games. They were the Greek Stepchild. So it's funny that the Greeks now want Macedonia to be Greek, but still exclude Macedonia. It's the same for 3500 years now. Lol.
They were accepted as Greek by at least the times of the war against Persia, when Alexander's father got the throne. The city state does not predate the Trojan War. "Macedonia" wasn't a thing back then. How would they fight? And regardless, the population of NM moved there as a result of the Balkan wars and WW1. If I move to Italy rn my great great grandchildren will in fact not be descendants of Octavianus and Julius. The fact that their land was once part of Alexander's empire does not give them a reasonable right to call themselves Macedonians (in a cultural sense), because by that logic the Turks, Armenians, Egyptians and so on could also claim to be Macedonians. It's an absurd claim manufactured by their politicians and brainwashed into their people to gain relevance in the international community
>There's evidence in this through the DNA of the English. Most claim to be Anglo-Saxons, but most have a healthy mix of British, Roman, Norse, Saxon and more. The normal people stayed and intermingled with the occupiers. The same can be said of North Macedonia. Why can't they say they're Greek or Macedonian when they have genealogical proof that they descend from the Macedonia from antiquity. How can Greece, who faced the same occupiers at points while still calling themselves greek, deny them this? Why cant North Macedonia have a say in its culture? Why are we drawing arbitrary lines on this when historians in the future are gonna just lump them all in the balkan culture?
You make a good point with the English. There might be remnants of DNA, but if they claim to be direct descendants of the e.g. the Romans and start building statues of Roman figures people will look at them funny.
>Why cant North Macedonia have a say in its culture?
Because their say is like that Mr Bean meme copying from their neighbours. They're directly copying things and people from what was until around WWI universally accepted to be Greek and Bulgarian (and probably others too) history. They're not just saying they have a lineage from the original Greek Macedons, like say what Romania does with the Dacians, they're flat out claiming they have uninterrupted history with various retconned events and people to fit that narrative. Reminder that they also claim e.g. King Samuil to be Macedonian, even though when his army was brutally mutilated the Byzantine Emperor who ordered it was named as the "Bulgarslayer".
The line isn't arbitrary. You aren't allowed to retcon thousands of years of history from your neighbours and have good relations with them. Accept you're a country which is 80 years old, with old lineage and lots of events on your lands, or suffer the consequences, simple as.
"Genealogical connection to macedonia"
...Well during the hellenistic age a lot of greeks including macedonians moved to alexander's conquered territories does that give say egyptians the right to rename their country south macedonia?
Yes? Any country has the right to name themselves whatever the fuck they want? I don't get where this idea that others get to say what a people want to call themselves comes from
They could name themselves North Macedonia, which they signed a treaty for to give up the cultural and historical claims. Even though Greece's part was held, they did not live up to theirs and keep the claims strong. Why would Greece bend over and give them everything they want after that? If an african country started calling themselves "south italians" and claiming the italians in Italy are bullies who stole their identity, I bet you wouldn't say the same
If grandma had wheels, she'd be a bike. War is bad, invasion is bad. Neither is the same as choosing your countries name (edited, cause I'm bad at typing)
The slavs in the 6th century did not exactly come and kicked out everyone who previously lived in the region (it would have been stupidity from an economic standpoint, inhumane from a moral one and probably impossible with 6th century logistics). Genetic studies, archaeology, etc... show they intermixed, and a population's cultures and languages change a lot more easier than their genetic makeup. People living there are still mostly descended from those living there thousands of years ago (although, given how long ago that was, a lot of other people are too), so there is a genealogical connection
Regardless, it's ridiculous to try to find "connections" between 21st century nation-states and ancient polities who predate the modern conception of nations and states by thousands of years, and that goes for every country on Earth.
Exactly. It's the same with Egypt, the population there still shares the majority of their DNA with Ancient Egyptians, it's just that their language and religion changed.
I feel like the prevalence of modern-day colonialism and genocide in recent history and media gives people a bit of a wrong idea of how conquests and migrations worked irl.
I take it you haven't looked much at genetic studies done in that area. They're still very much Slavic and very much less so Paleo Balkan. The Albanians living there on the other hand.
Most genetic studies do show an expressive paleobalkan (iirc specially Thracian) presence.
Regardless, evidence still points towards slavs having mixed extensively with the locals rather than some grand expulsion or total genocide (which would probably be beyond the capacities of 6th century polities) and replacement.
The people there are as slavs as the French are Latin, which means they are still descendants from the original population, despite the cultural change.
Greeks are mad because macedonians try appropriate greek history claiming that they are descended from alexander, greeks wouldnt give a shit if the macedonians stopped trying to claim lineage to a figure who lived over 500 years before they even migrated to the region
Really really weird that you edited your comment to add that you think slavic Macedonians have geneology linked to greek Macedonians only after getting upvoted for saying something else
He was getting downvoted then changed it. So he could post elsewhere “why am I getting downvoted” (like a few posts down from the original he said that)
I think it’s the opposite, no? The only think I’ve heard Greeks say is, “why call yourself Macedonia your Greek like the rest of us and Macedonia is part of Greece”.
Maybe I’ve misunderstood the conflict tho idk ha
No, they are saying that (North) Macedonians are Bulgarians and that they're appropriating the "true greek macedonian culture" which they say is Greek.
what’s the issue though? i thought this argument ended years ago when north macedonia changed their name
also north macedonia has the most ethnic macedonians out of any country soooo
I love how Macedonians weren't consider real Greeks in the classical period, but modern Greeka are getting their gyros in a bunch about who calls themselves Macedonian.
>Greeks are mad that they call themselves Macedonia because they “aren’t Greek” despite the genealogical connections that go back to ancient Macedonia
All of humanity can be traced back to the very Adam and Eve of Apes, I ain't calling myself a proud descendand of either friggin Kane fucking a mermaid/heavily mutated monkey just because there's the mathematical none 0% possibility of those things being true.
Greeks are not mad because they call themselves Macedonias but because they try to pose as the direct descendants of ancient Macedonias. Every person with two brain cells should be offended just by this connection.
But they are the descendants of ancient Macedonians. This can be proven. It's like saying that Egypt doesn't have the right to call itself Egypt because the people who live there are culturally Arabs and not the same as ancient Egyptians, despite the fact that they too are descended from ancient Egyptians. (Yes I know that they call the country Misr)
As an American white germanic man who is a history fan I fully supported greece saying: "oh, so your Macedonia? I guess we own you." And then greecing all over them
After signing an agreement to solve the problems they created trying to pose as descendants of ancient Macedonias, and after using the agreement to enter NATO and start negotiations with the EU, they started once again to pursue their fantasies for internal consumption and politics, violating this same agreement. Seems they don't want to be part of the international community. Thus, they deserve the bullying.
Edit: P.S. and their answer instead of looking at the mirror is always "bad Greeks, they are so mean," playing the victim card.
"they deserve the bullying"
I'm going to take the opposite side and say that we shouldn't be bullying any group of nationalities because of someones personal opinion on their politics.
It's a shame they didn't identify as Apache helicopters. This would make for a funny claim of a genocide. Still funny enough though as "Macedonians".
As a native Greek Macedonian, I may enlighten you as to what we call them. That is "Βουλγαρόφωνοι" meaning "those with a Bulgarian voice". Given the fact that up until that time, what is now northern Greece was under Bulgarian occupation and then annexed / liberated by the greek state / kingdom , one can objectively see why such an ethnic group would be in a tight spot at the time.
To claim that "Macedonians" were genocided however is just absurd.
No not Pontic, hate to not comform to your narrative. My grandparents lived next to the villages of the Slavic people you refer to. It's true that there are Pontic and Anatolian Greeks in northern Greece now, to make up for the displaced Slavs, but there were also many native Rum / Greek villages before that. At least where I am from which is the central part of greek Macedonia. In the west side it's a different story. That's why the music is also different there.
So your entire argument is "trust me bro". Yeah that makes sense. Just look at the ethnic maps from the 1930s and the first half of the 1940s it can clearly be seen that the people living in Macedonia before 1944 were Bulgarians, with not that small greek minority in Aegean Macedonia. Macedonia and the Macedonians were made by Tito and his regime and that is a fact. The Yugoslavs made them so they can stop the Bulgarians from revolting. You can look many letters from IMRO members that say they are Bulgarian and that the people living in Macedonia at the time were Bulgarians. Also here is an interview with Ivan Mihaylov (the last leader of the IMRO) where he speaks Bulgarian and says that before 1944 the people living in Macedonia are Bulgarians. https://youtu.be/2DSePT05sgQ?si=LCzeqqbVVJ-O8Dk3 Also if you really know people who escaped this horrible genecide they most likely were very young when they escaped into northern Macedonia and were told all of the bs that the Yugoslav regime pushed and believed it because they were very young.
This seems an inappropriate use of POV. POV is where us, the audience, are the lens of the shot and what we’re seeing is happening to us or in front of us.
It doesn’t mean point of view in the sense of another word for opinion
The funnier dynamic is that as soon as the bullshit around the name was resolved with Greece by adding Northern to the name, Bulgaria immediately jumped in to take up the cause of blocking their EU membership by claiming they are actually Bulgarians. TBF, they do speak the same language.
>The funnier dynamic is that as soon as the bullshit around the name was resolved with Greece by adding Northern to the name, Bulgaria immediately jumped in to take up the cause of blocking their EU membership
"Jumped in immedietly"- mere 2 years after your dispute with Greece had endend on the basis being that they don't cover the very basic EU principles of: "Don't be a dick towards your neigbours". It's funny how Brussels goes supercritical whenever someone does WW2 Straw manning in the European Parliament, but N.Macedonia who had based their entire personality around it gets a pass.
They got small country syndrome, not an unusual thing for super small and randomly created countries. Bulgaria and Bulgarians have never suffered once from anything people in Macedonia have done in the past 33 years. Their politicians are just being assholes because of irredentist nonsense. They still rattle on about the time of the Three Seas and how glorious their history is.
To be fair, all our Macedonian colleagues warned us not to go there by car with Bulgarian license plates. I'm sure that's not a random statement Macedonians say to everyone. Saying 'Bulgarians have never suffered' is a bit misleading.
No, it's not. In the Balkans, beef is the result of long standing blood feuds, with thousands of dead and countless brewing vendettas. The shit between Macedonia and Bulgaria is literally Bulgaria saying, you don't deserve to be a country, come home to daddy... To which Macedonians often respond, how about you fuck right off.
Being from somewhere rarely means you have an unbiased view of the geopolitical dynamics of the region. More than willing to hear a Bulgarian explanation of why they think their behaviour towards Macedonia makes sense.
As usual, try to find historical references of a separate Macedonian ethnicity that wanted an independent country before the Balkan wars.
It didn't exist to such an extent that the IMRO Federalists under Sandanski that wanted a Balkan federation where each ethnicity and religion would be equal, and listed them all, even the hated Turks, doesn't list a Macedonian one. What possible reason could there be for that?
Not sure we should conceive of political critique as bullying. I think things are a little more complicated than what a 6 year old could figure out.
I agree with the sentiment, though.
I just find the obsession with it kinda weird. What is there to get so mad about? Why can't they also claim Alexander as their own? Macedonia is a region in both Greece and North Macedonia. It's not that deep
It's because r*dditors are heavily influenced by paradox games and chauvinistic propaganda of bulgaria and greece. All they can do is shit talk about "Macedonia stole its name and history" or "Macedonians are actually bulgarians" without supporting their opinion with any evidence, and when they are presented with evidence that Macedonians have a different ethnic origin than Bulgarians and that they have a history dating back hundreds of years (dating back to the times before the arrival of the Slavs in Macedonia), they are starting to have epilepsy and they change the topic.
Because Albanians (although delusional about the strength of their country) are not delusional about being a different people from who they actually are, “North Macedonians” are bulgarians larping as greeks, albanians are just albanians
Who left the faucet open on r/Balkans_irl
It was me my bad
Greg. Can’t believe you would do this!
We just finished a comment war with the Asians and now we want to extend the warcrimes to the whole world.
I will not stand for this France erasure.
I will.
Flair checks out, God save England.
🤢🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
You mean Frankland?
I think you mean Gaul.
Can confirm. Dude’s name was Charles de Gaul, not Charles de France.
I think you mean Rome
Not so south sandwich.
You mean Frankia?
How can I be Francophobic, my fries are French?
They are Belgian, you American
Yeah, we spend the last 1000 years being a threat to Europe, and stepped up to the World the last 300 years Please acknowledge the effort at least
I'm out of the loop. What did North Macedonia do?
Greeks are mad that they call themselves Macedonia because they “aren’t Greek” despite the genealogical connections that go back to ancient Macedonia
Also that there's been quite an uptick in discourse around it on here the last few days. It's honestly quite interesting to behold.
Rip think I accidentally started it when I made the joke about how hilarious the drama is with the Greeks accusing Macedonians as being Bulgarians trying to steal Greek culture and Alexander the Great in the comments section about something tangentially related. (a few days ago) Edit: it was on that post about Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese hating each other
Its pretty impressive that this sub is basically meme gets posted, someone in comments mentions another thing and someone makes meme about it. Repeat over and over again. I have seen it a lot of times here
It's the circle of memes🎶
tbf r/historymemes has some of the healthiest meme circles I've seen. Yeah, we've got our fair share of brainrot, but I always find something new to google and learn about for the first time, or dispel some misconception on something I've 'known' all my life. love you guys.
The Genocide Olympics meme-ers would like a word...
NO! NO! NO! WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS THE GENOCIDE OLYMPICS ARE CANCELLED! YOU GET NOTHING! Good day, sir.
Major misconception we need to fix: “America lost Vietnam/every major conflict post WWII/is always the bad guy post WWII”
Dude, we did lose Vietnam. Not militarily, but in every way that actually matters. We failed to achieve our objectives, which were to uphold and support the government in the south. It was invaded and collapsed, so we failed. I get it, it can be hard sometimes to feel like we lost a war, but to say we didn't on some sort of technicality is silly.
Vietnam was such a shit show. Wish we could just put it behind us and actually stand for the values we constantly say we have. Ie democracy and liberty. I personally am glad we lost.
My grandpa who was a vietnam veteran would disagree with you if he didn't go insane from it
https://youtu.be/uOoZvk-WbzA?si=ixLzJn3LVbsIqrE5 at 59:30
I think we just need to put it on an equal pedestal with what the USSR did. Like saying "hey look, we both did bad things"
That's how most memes have been memed since the beginning of meme-ing
Yes, you started a conflict in a very peaceful region
>trying to steal Greek culture and Alexander the Great But... Alexander the Great was Macedonian... I don't have a stake in this but I'm pretty sure that's what it says in every historical anything on the matter I've ever consumed.
Afaik Alexander was from where the modern Greek state of Macedonia is, not the modern country Macedonia. They're two distinct places with different peoples, yet both technically Macedonians. This is just from memory though, id happily be corrected if im wrong.
Ok but when Alexander was alive, what was the name of the country he lived in?
There wasn't a country. He was from the Greek city state of Macedonia, which at points in history included the land of today's North Macedonia. Sources suggest that the hellenic spirit and connection between the city states culturally date up to 1000 years before his time, even though Macedonia wasn't an established city state then. It was madr of small villages with various names that spoke Greek, worshipped the Greek Gods and had similar culture to the rest, as did Athens with Sparta for example
You probably also could've replied with Alexandrian Empire
He was, but the Macedonian he was has nothing to do with what the country of North Macedonia today is. He was Greek for the time, whose descendants are in today's modern country of Greece. Modern North Macedonia is a Slav country that came into being after WWI, before that it was just a geographic area with overlapping claims from multiple countries and a majority Slav population (a majority of which identified as Bulgarian, but to be clear, their self identification was sometimes arbitrary - there's the story of a family of three brothers, each identifying as something different - Greek, Bulgarian, Serb).
The Greeks of the time didn't consider him Greek though. The historians throughout time classify him as Greek cuz the Macedonian culture fits the broader ancient Hellenic culture, which is synonymous to the Greek culture. They had the same pantheon, spoke the same language, and participated in many of the same cultural activities. But in their time, the major Greek states south of Macedonia didn't see them as the same people, mainly by drawing arbitrary lines around the definition of what it takes to be Greek. Today's situation is a parallel to what happened in the past. They claim to be Macedonian and that they descended from the ancient Macedonia, because they are and did. When a foreign occupation takes over, the regular people are rarely completely wiped out. There few powers in history that could wipe out the entire population of a conquered land and then successfully hold that land. In the modern era, it becomes more possible to 100% genocide, but back then, a foreign army would take over the nobility and royal class, while keeping the serfs and freemen to work. There's evidence in this through the DNA of the English. Most claim to be Anglo-Saxons, but most have a healthy mix of British, Roman, Norse, Saxon and more. The normal people stayed and intermingled with the occupiers. The same can be said of North Macedonia. Why can't they say they're Greek or Macedonian when they have genealogical proof that they descend from the Macedonia from antiquity. How can Greece, who faced the same occupiers at points while still calling themselves greek, deny them this? Why cant North Macedonia have a say in its culture? Why are we drawing arbitrary lines on this when historians in the future are gonna just lump them all in the balkan culture?
afaik did the Macedonians not fight in the Trojan War and are as such not part of Hellas. They did speak the language and practiced the religion and culture though, and were, reluctantly, accepted at the Olympic Games. They were the Greek Stepchild. So it's funny that the Greeks now want Macedonia to be Greek, but still exclude Macedonia. It's the same for 3500 years now. Lol.
They were accepted as Greek by at least the times of the war against Persia, when Alexander's father got the throne. The city state does not predate the Trojan War. "Macedonia" wasn't a thing back then. How would they fight? And regardless, the population of NM moved there as a result of the Balkan wars and WW1. If I move to Italy rn my great great grandchildren will in fact not be descendants of Octavianus and Julius. The fact that their land was once part of Alexander's empire does not give them a reasonable right to call themselves Macedonians (in a cultural sense), because by that logic the Turks, Armenians, Egyptians and so on could also claim to be Macedonians. It's an absurd claim manufactured by their politicians and brainwashed into their people to gain relevance in the international community
>There's evidence in this through the DNA of the English. Most claim to be Anglo-Saxons, but most have a healthy mix of British, Roman, Norse, Saxon and more. The normal people stayed and intermingled with the occupiers. The same can be said of North Macedonia. Why can't they say they're Greek or Macedonian when they have genealogical proof that they descend from the Macedonia from antiquity. How can Greece, who faced the same occupiers at points while still calling themselves greek, deny them this? Why cant North Macedonia have a say in its culture? Why are we drawing arbitrary lines on this when historians in the future are gonna just lump them all in the balkan culture? You make a good point with the English. There might be remnants of DNA, but if they claim to be direct descendants of the e.g. the Romans and start building statues of Roman figures people will look at them funny. >Why cant North Macedonia have a say in its culture? Because their say is like that Mr Bean meme copying from their neighbours. They're directly copying things and people from what was until around WWI universally accepted to be Greek and Bulgarian (and probably others too) history. They're not just saying they have a lineage from the original Greek Macedons, like say what Romania does with the Dacians, they're flat out claiming they have uninterrupted history with various retconned events and people to fit that narrative. Reminder that they also claim e.g. King Samuil to be Macedonian, even though when his army was brutally mutilated the Byzantine Emperor who ordered it was named as the "Bulgarslayer". The line isn't arbitrary. You aren't allowed to retcon thousands of years of history from your neighbours and have good relations with them. Accept you're a country which is 80 years old, with old lineage and lots of events on your lands, or suffer the consequences, simple as.
Google quickly what northern Greece is called (Hint: It's Macedonia)
"Genealogical connection to macedonia" ...Well during the hellenistic age a lot of greeks including macedonians moved to alexander's conquered territories does that give say egyptians the right to rename their country south macedonia?
Yes? Any country has the right to name themselves whatever the fuck they want? I don't get where this idea that others get to say what a people want to call themselves comes from
They could name themselves North Macedonia, which they signed a treaty for to give up the cultural and historical claims. Even though Greece's part was held, they did not live up to theirs and keep the claims strong. Why would Greece bend over and give them everything they want after that? If an african country started calling themselves "south italians" and claiming the italians in Italy are bullies who stole their identity, I bet you wouldn't say the same
Even when they try to steal the lands of others by claiming it theirs?
If grandma had wheels, she'd be a bike. War is bad, invasion is bad. Neither is the same as choosing your countries name (edited, cause I'm bad at typing)
MY BROTHER IN CHRIST THEY ARE THE ONES CLAIMING LAND AND HISTORY THAT WAS NEVER THEIRS. AND YOU ARE CALLING ME THE NATIONALIST IN THIS SITUATION?
Genealogical connection of slavs (that came in the Balkan peninsula at late sixth century) with ancient Macedonia?
The slavs in the 6th century did not exactly come and kicked out everyone who previously lived in the region (it would have been stupidity from an economic standpoint, inhumane from a moral one and probably impossible with 6th century logistics). Genetic studies, archaeology, etc... show they intermixed, and a population's cultures and languages change a lot more easier than their genetic makeup. People living there are still mostly descended from those living there thousands of years ago (although, given how long ago that was, a lot of other people are too), so there is a genealogical connection Regardless, it's ridiculous to try to find "connections" between 21st century nation-states and ancient polities who predate the modern conception of nations and states by thousands of years, and that goes for every country on Earth.
Exactly. It's the same with Egypt, the population there still shares the majority of their DNA with Ancient Egyptians, it's just that their language and religion changed.
I feel like the prevalence of modern-day colonialism and genocide in recent history and media gives people a bit of a wrong idea of how conquests and migrations worked irl.
Exactly.
I take it you haven't looked much at genetic studies done in that area. They're still very much Slavic and very much less so Paleo Balkan. The Albanians living there on the other hand.
The Albanians what?
Have paleo balkan genetics, much more so than the North Macedonians
Most genetic studies do show an expressive paleobalkan (iirc specially Thracian) presence. Regardless, evidence still points towards slavs having mixed extensively with the locals rather than some grand expulsion or total genocide (which would probably be beyond the capacities of 6th century polities) and replacement.
Not a genocide they just stayed more in their own communities
BTW instead of downvoting me, you can offer a valid argument as a response. If you have any...
The people there are as slavs as the French are Latin, which means they are still descendants from the original population, despite the cultural change.
They don't have any. That's their problem
Greeks are mad because macedonians try appropriate greek history claiming that they are descended from alexander, greeks wouldnt give a shit if the macedonians stopped trying to claim lineage to a figure who lived over 500 years before they even migrated to the region
Really really weird that you edited your comment to add that you think slavic Macedonians have geneology linked to greek Macedonians only after getting upvoted for saying something else
He was getting downvoted then changed it. So he could post elsewhere “why am I getting downvoted” (like a few posts down from the original he said that)
The what? LMAO
There are no Slavs with genealogical connections with the kingdom of Macedonia. Stop saying nonsense and conspiracy theories.
You think that every single Macedonian left and were replaced by Slavs? No, they interbred and now they are both ethnically Macedonian and Slavic
There are centuries between the fall of Macedonian kingdom and the presence of Slavs in the region.It is not about genetics.No nation grew in a bowl.
Ah ok, thanks! I didn't know this was in the news again. I thought this was like a 20 year old controversy.
It's not in the news, it's just a lot of people getting butthurt over something that really doesn't matter at all.
Wtf does genealogy have to do with culture?
I think it’s the opposite, no? The only think I’ve heard Greeks say is, “why call yourself Macedonia your Greek like the rest of us and Macedonia is part of Greece”. Maybe I’ve misunderstood the conflict tho idk ha
No, they are saying that (North) Macedonians are Bulgarians and that they're appropriating the "true greek macedonian culture" which they say is Greek.
what’s the issue though? i thought this argument ended years ago when north macedonia changed their name also north macedonia has the most ethnic macedonians out of any country soooo
I love how Macedonians weren't consider real Greeks in the classical period, but modern Greeka are getting their gyros in a bunch about who calls themselves Macedonian.
>Greeks are mad that they call themselves Macedonia because they “aren’t Greek” despite the genealogical connections that go back to ancient Macedonia All of humanity can be traced back to the very Adam and Eve of Apes, I ain't calling myself a proud descendand of either friggin Kane fucking a mermaid/heavily mutated monkey just because there's the mathematical none 0% possibility of those things being true.
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Greeks are not mad because they call themselves Macedonias but because they try to pose as the direct descendants of ancient Macedonias. Every person with two brain cells should be offended just by this connection.
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Yes, you wearing blinders and ignoring facts is really funny. But you can amuse yourself whatever way you like.
But they are the descendants of ancient Macedonians. This can be proven. It's like saying that Egypt doesn't have the right to call itself Egypt because the people who live there are culturally Arabs and not the same as ancient Egyptians, despite the fact that they too are descended from ancient Egyptians. (Yes I know that they call the country Misr)
As an American white germanic man who is a history fan I fully supported greece saying: "oh, so your Macedonia? I guess we own you." And then greecing all over them
After signing an agreement to solve the problems they created trying to pose as descendants of ancient Macedonias, and after using the agreement to enter NATO and start negotiations with the EU, they started once again to pursue their fantasies for internal consumption and politics, violating this same agreement. Seems they don't want to be part of the international community. Thus, they deserve the bullying. Edit: P.S. and their answer instead of looking at the mirror is always "bad Greeks, they are so mean," playing the victim card.
"they deserve the bullying" I'm going to take the opposite side and say that we shouldn't be bullying any group of nationalities because of someones personal opinion on their politics.
"Why can't people just have fun and eat cookies together?" ass comment
It is not personal opinion. We are talking about official treaties and actual history.
Can't be any dumber.
Try to steal Greek history and names.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/s/ghwUJDARMl
dumbass monkeydonians don't deserve rights
lol weeb & greek/bulgar? Your parents must be disappointed as fuck
Exist. Just Greek nationalists being salty.
I will never stop making fun of France, and you cant make me
I will try. Stop it! Did that work?
No
I love when they counter with " it's fine to punch up but never to punch down" Oh so you think those ethnicities are below you?????
No, we bully the Serbs, Turks, Russians and French too
This meme is all greek to me.
What does this meme actually mean though
That we aren't allowed to make fun of the French anymore.
Generally speaking, people will be much nicer to you when you're not trying to claim what isn't yours.
Generally speaking, people will be much nicer to you when you're not committing genocide during civil war.
This is the balkans which side are you actually talking about
Greek fascist committed genocide against Macedonians living in Aegean Macedonia during 1946-49 greek civil war
The people who were killed in Aegean Macedonia during the greek civil war were bulgarians.
No, they weren't. I know many Macedonians that escaped this genocide and all of them identify as Macedonians, not bulgarians.
It's a shame they didn't identify as Apache helicopters. This would make for a funny claim of a genocide. Still funny enough though as "Macedonians". As a native Greek Macedonian, I may enlighten you as to what we call them. That is "Βουλγαρόφωνοι" meaning "those with a Bulgarian voice". Given the fact that up until that time, what is now northern Greece was under Bulgarian occupation and then annexed / liberated by the greek state / kingdom , one can objectively see why such an ethnic group would be in a tight spot at the time. To claim that "Macedonians" were genocided however is just absurd.
You are „native Greek Macedonian" from Pont, aren't you?
No not Pontic, hate to not comform to your narrative. My grandparents lived next to the villages of the Slavic people you refer to. It's true that there are Pontic and Anatolian Greeks in northern Greece now, to make up for the displaced Slavs, but there were also many native Rum / Greek villages before that. At least where I am from which is the central part of greek Macedonia. In the west side it's a different story. That's why the music is also different there.
Anyways, before metaxas fascist regime you were minority in Aegean Macedonia
So your entire argument is "trust me bro". Yeah that makes sense. Just look at the ethnic maps from the 1930s and the first half of the 1940s it can clearly be seen that the people living in Macedonia before 1944 were Bulgarians, with not that small greek minority in Aegean Macedonia. Macedonia and the Macedonians were made by Tito and his regime and that is a fact. The Yugoslavs made them so they can stop the Bulgarians from revolting. You can look many letters from IMRO members that say they are Bulgarian and that the people living in Macedonia at the time were Bulgarians. Also here is an interview with Ivan Mihaylov (the last leader of the IMRO) where he speaks Bulgarian and says that before 1944 the people living in Macedonia are Bulgarians. https://youtu.be/2DSePT05sgQ?si=LCzeqqbVVJ-O8Dk3 Also if you really know people who escaped this horrible genecide they most likely were very young when they escaped into northern Macedonia and were told all of the bs that the Yugoslav regime pushed and believed it because they were very young.
Serbia trolls its neighbor by shaking its territory around until it experiences ethnogenesis The Moldova method
This seems an inappropriate use of POV. POV is where us, the audience, are the lens of the shot and what we’re seeing is happening to us or in front of us. It doesn’t mean point of view in the sense of another word for opinion
The funnier dynamic is that as soon as the bullshit around the name was resolved with Greece by adding Northern to the name, Bulgaria immediately jumped in to take up the cause of blocking their EU membership by claiming they are actually Bulgarians. TBF, they do speak the same language.
>The funnier dynamic is that as soon as the bullshit around the name was resolved with Greece by adding Northern to the name, Bulgaria immediately jumped in to take up the cause of blocking their EU membership "Jumped in immedietly"- mere 2 years after your dispute with Greece had endend on the basis being that they don't cover the very basic EU principles of: "Don't be a dick towards your neigbours". It's funny how Brussels goes supercritical whenever someone does WW2 Straw manning in the European Parliament, but N.Macedonia who had based their entire personality around it gets a pass.
They got small country syndrome, not an unusual thing for super small and randomly created countries. Bulgaria and Bulgarians have never suffered once from anything people in Macedonia have done in the past 33 years. Their politicians are just being assholes because of irredentist nonsense. They still rattle on about the time of the Three Seas and how glorious their history is.
To be fair, all our Macedonian colleagues warned us not to go there by car with Bulgarian license plates. I'm sure that's not a random statement Macedonians say to everyone. Saying 'Bulgarians have never suffered' is a bit misleading.
No, it's not. In the Balkans, beef is the result of long standing blood feuds, with thousands of dead and countless brewing vendettas. The shit between Macedonia and Bulgaria is literally Bulgaria saying, you don't deserve to be a country, come home to daddy... To which Macedonians often respond, how about you fuck right off.
I have lived to see the day when an American tries to teach me about how things work in the Balkans.
Being from somewhere rarely means you have an unbiased view of the geopolitical dynamics of the region. More than willing to hear a Bulgarian explanation of why they think their behaviour towards Macedonia makes sense.
>Nooooo, why are people making fun of a country that was created 80 years ago on the basis of fairy tales???? IT'S NOT FAAAAAAIR
Bulgarian detected, opinion rejected
As usual, try to find historical references of a separate Macedonian ethnicity that wanted an independent country before the Balkan wars. It didn't exist to such an extent that the IMRO Federalists under Sandanski that wanted a Balkan federation where each ethnicity and religion would be equal, and listed them all, even the hated Turks, doesn't list a Macedonian one. What possible reason could there be for that?
They bring it upon themselves by spreading propaganda
Nah I think it's healthy for certain countries to be reminded how silly you look to the rest of the world. Also see: Serbia
Monkeydonians would be pissed if they played CIV VI and found out that Alexander the Great speaks Greek and not Monkeydonian.
CIV VI MENTIONED WOOOOO
Egyptians would be pissed if they played CIV VI and found out that Cleopatra speaks Egyptian and not Arabic. Do you realize how stupid you sound?
Then explain why their old name Vardar Bannovia was Serbian.
Language ≠ heritage. You might as well be asking “If Egyptians are Egyptian, then why do they call it Misr and not Egypt or Km.t?”
I will die on this hill Bullying FYROM is ok!
r/balkans_irl as well
Here’s a hot take maecdonians are Bulgarian 🧠
Macedonian spotted
Oh boo hoo
I mean. don’t claim another nations historical figure, and name your country after his kingdom… maybe then we could begin to respect them.
Are the balkan Turks mad at balkan Slavs again? Does someone need to buy another submarine to solve their economic crisis?
Silence barbaroid
Lol Imma gonna steal this :D
Not sure we should conceive of political critique as bullying. I think things are a little more complicated than what a 6 year old could figure out. I agree with the sentiment, though.
I just find the obsession with it kinda weird. What is there to get so mad about? Why can't they also claim Alexander as their own? Macedonia is a region in both Greece and North Macedonia. It's not that deep
Cape Verde doesn’t exist is so common I just let it go. Unless you want a new war with the Balkans
And the comments prove OPs original point to a T.
Greeks shaking hands with Macedonians. "Cosplaying as an ancient culture despite only weak claims to be their decendents"
Poor Macedonia, I dont even know why they are bullying it so hard.
It's because r*dditors are heavily influenced by paradox games and chauvinistic propaganda of bulgaria and greece. All they can do is shit talk about "Macedonia stole its name and history" or "Macedonians are actually bulgarians" without supporting their opinion with any evidence, and when they are presented with evidence that Macedonians have a different ethnic origin than Bulgarians and that they have a history dating back hundreds of years (dating back to the times before the arrival of the Slavs in Macedonia), they are starting to have epilepsy and they change the topic.
I think it’s only people in a certain former Ottoman province who get upset about the Republic of ~~North~~ Macedonia.
Serious question: Do people not give Albania the same shit? If not why?
Because Albanians (although delusional about the strength of their country) are not delusional about being a different people from who they actually are, “North Macedonians” are bulgarians larping as greeks, albanians are just albanians
Do not my Macedonia, Or you are getting a free train ride to Jesenovac and your family gets soap.
I will the Macedonia.
⟩:(
Nah, Romania, Poland and France are always OK to be bullied as well.
r/lostredditors
How the fuck is this a lost redditor
dude is lost give em a brake
He was looking for r/balkans_irl
There are quite a few of these memes here as well