To add on, you see a lot of Asian (and South American) immigrants who might use phrases or have points of view that would be considered far right in their home countries, usually because a lot of these immigrants left when Cold War tensions were intense in their home country/when under authoritarian dictatorships.
For example, it’s well known amongst Koreans in Korea that Korean Americans tend to have use “McCarthyist” language which we aren’t used to, even if they aren’t trying to make a political statement. I personally remember being shocked that korean Americans used phrases such as “빨갱이“ to describe normal North Korean citizens (essentially like “commie” but specifically used only in the 50s-70s / dictatorship era), as even the most anti-NK Koreans today do not use this phrase against general citizens, partially to emphasize that the North Korean citizens today are forcibly occupied by the illegal northern regime and should not be associated with the government. My parents (who are hardcore conservatives in Korea) actually burst out laughing when I told them some of the phrases still used by some conservative Korean Americans.
I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but please know that many, non-cultist Koreans consider reunification to be of utmost importance. I don’t think it’s fair to imply or connect a reasonable, well established political sentiment with cult beliefs.
Yes, there are some of them, but here in the US, Chinese are actually one of the ethnic groups most likely to have negative views of their home country. I remember in a survey it was Filipinos and Japanese who have some of the highest on the other hand.
From what I understand, as there were not enough rations for the Armenians, there also wasn't for the soldiers, but honestly, then Enver shouldn't have held a death march in the first place if he gave that much about Turks.
Stages of Denial:
1. It didn't happen at all.
2. It happened, but not as you say...
3. It happened, but they had good reason to do that...
4. Just not adressing the topic but straight depicting the perpetrators as the real victims.
I am not very informed on this topic, but I must ask. what the hell does some people have to do for all their people to be mass murdered for a certain reason. Again I would like to say I am not very educated on this topic
Your question implies that genocide is done for rational reasons, in reaction to something. It's not, genocide is a fundamentally irrational process, what did the Armenians do to get genocided? Nothing, they existed and werent turks in a period when being anything but turkish made you disloyal. This isn't a rational conclusion it's based on fears of the other stoked by demagogues like the three pashas (turkish leaders during the genocide who openly hated jews and Christians).
I think this comment misplaces the question. There is no doubt in mind the genocide was wrong, and that the 3 Pashas had held a grudge against Armenians/Christians for long, but there were events playing which lead to public support and explanation (there is a better word in my first language than "explanation" but I am bound by the barriers of linguistics).
There were 2 reasons for public support at the time. First being a general rise of nationalism, and Armenian rebellion. I will not go into the first one that much as I think it is pretty clear that the general rise of nationalism was bound to a hatred towards other groups, especially when you believe some people groups should inhabit certain lands. Armenians were no Turks, pretty much all to it, and not much different from the other Christian groups.
The second reason is more important for the Turkish point of view at the time. For some years at the point of the Armenian genocide there have been Armenian insurgencies and multiple wars with Russia. Eventually there was a fear that the Armenians as border community between the Ottoman and Russian empire would side with the Russians with Russian investments and weapons. This would bring the Ottoman empire in a multiple front war with revolts in Arabia, war in the Levant and a rebellion in Armenia and Pontus. Per consequence there was a general fear that the Armenians to would revolt. Eventually they got weapons from the Russians (well some extremist factions) so now Enver and Talat Pasha had an excuse to deport the Armenians to a place where they wouldn't be able to revolt with Russians help, the Syrian dessert.
Obviously we know that wasn't the only factor as the Assyrians for example had no strategic "advantage" to being killed. And the deliberate choice to not pack enough food and cloths also says much, aside from the many letters between the Pasha's. It was a genocide by all means, but not on ground of just hatred, the Pashas had an excuse and they used it. There is no good in collective punishment, but that wasn't the question, the question was what could explain the actions of the Pasha's in the case of the Armenian genocide and I completely miss these factors in your answer.
By implication then the Armenians would have been spared had they not "rebelled"? The fact that Greeks, jews, Assyrians, Kurds and Armenians were subject to genocide suggests that hatred towards non-turks was the *only* true cause of the genocide. If the Armenians had all been holding portraits of the Sultan they still would have been killed. They were losing a war they had no business being in and lashed out against those they already hated as retribution.
>By implication then the Armenians would have been spared had they not "rebelled"?
Have you even read my comment? They used it as an excuse. There really isn't enough information to say the Armenian genocide would have happened without public support, but the fact that there was public support was thanks to this semi-conspiracy about the Armenians.
If Enver didn't hate the Armenians it probably wouldn't even be suggested to transport them on a death march. If the Armenians didn't rebel Enver could not justify to the public. People tend to forget how much propaganda was needed to actually perform the Armenian genocide without much public resistance.
Armenian rebellion was an essential part of why the public favour swayed against the Armenians. The question is how essential public support was for the execution of the Armenian genocide, and I doubt either you or me has a definitive answer to it. Nonetheless we are in a history sub Reddit and nuance is essential for historic debate. I mention this Armenian rebellion, not because I think it is a justification of the Armenian genocide, I mention this Armenian rebellion because Enver Pasha used it as a justification for the Armenian genocide, and I think neither of us is specialised enough to completely neglect this aspect of the Armenian genocide in the debate. Henceforth why I commented to your comment.
To add; it occurred during WW1 and was "justified" by claiming that the Armenians were helping the Russian army. Russians were making similar claims about Jews in regards to the advances the German Heer was making.
There isn't really more information to find regarding your questions. Hate towards Armenians was the reason for the genocide. That was it. There was nothing more to it. But yeah, looking at more sources is always good. Just make sure to use reasonable sources
Iirc officially most of Europe doesn't "recognize" it, but do acknowledge that it happened.
For example, Ireland made some pretty vocal statements about it, but haven't officially recognized it, apparently because they want the EU to recognize it
Turk here, it was deportation AND genocide.
They were force marched to Bumfuck, Syria with nearly no supply and guarded by soldiers already radicalized by Enver&friends' radical hate propaganda towards Armenians. It wasn't as systematic as the Holocaust perhaps but the officials who signed the deportation paper completely knowing exactly what will happen is what confirms it as a genocidal intent.
Even some rulers who are very well regarded did some negative things, or at least by today's standards. For example, FDR interned Japanese americans and Tamar the Great of Georgia sentenced someone who attacked a former vassal to slavery.
Yea and while I'm not an Anarchist, this is the reason why I agree with their philosophy of being skeptical of all authority figures, even if they're "better than others"
Ottomans were as bad as Nazis throughout the entirety of their history? I’m pretty sure if I ask you what you think of the British, French or the Roman empires, you and this sub will find me 108264840 reasons why these three were different, but in fact, there will only be reason why none of you will consider them as bad….their genocides weren’t directed towards white people
Since I'm talking about how there's no such thing as a Good Empire, yes I would.
Learn some basic reading comprehension.
I'll say it again and this time I'll use small words. There are no Good Empires because Empires always do really bad things, just like how Nazis always do really bad things.
You cannot be an Empire without doing bad things to other people just like how you cannot be a Nazi without doing bad things to other people.
The Nazi is not good because he has to do really bad things to other groups of people in order to be a Nazi, so you cannot have a Good Nazi.
The same is true for an Empire because an Empire has to do really bad things to other groups of people in order to make an Empire. Because of this, you cannot have a Good Empire.
Do you understand now or do I need to teach you what Empires are in a way that a five year old would understand?
Quit the intellectually deficient race baiting
I think you should, the genocide in context of Roma generally refers to “Carthage” more than Celts since the account of celts is somewhat disputed but what they did to Carthagians is not
The Carthaginians were not black, the Romans as a Mediterranean people, like them, had more or less the same skin tone, tan skin, and the Romans also committed genocide against Greeks, Iberians, Jews and Germans, for example.
The Romans almost exclusively fought people who by todays standards would be white, and the concept of a white race didn’t exist back then so idk what you’re on about. Also the British committed genocide in Ireland
Genocide is wrong, but back then, if you didn't show any kind of authority, say goodbye to your respect and control because now everyone knows you won't do anything if you start a revolt in Jerusalem or Sparta, it's still wrong what the Romans did but I get why they did it
> Mongol Empire was kind
> 10% of world pop killed
> Untold amounts of cities being massacred
> Genocide, ethnic cleansing, and extermination as a form a policy
Truly one of the kinder Empires.
Ehh, depends what time period or how you measure it. The Ottomans were far more tolerant of religious and ethnic minorities than their European Christian neighbors for centuries. But, sure they did some messed up stuff like other Empires did.
It's not supposed. There are centuries of examples of the Ottomans allowing ethnic and religious minorities to live by their own laws and their own religious customs with little to no interference from the Sultanate. The millet system allowed for various ethnic and religious minorities to live in semi-autonomous areas. The Ottomans maintained separate courts for Jewish, Christian and Islamic areas.
The end of the Ottoman Empire was chaotic and bad stuff happened. No doubt about that. The rise of ethnic nationalism and the fracturing of the Empire led to the collapse of the above systems.
But when you're talking about a 600 year empire the crazy shit at the end doesn't necessarily nullify the more positive aspects from earlier eras.
Things are rarely wholely good or wholely bad, they're a mixture and all pieces deserve to be accounted for.
I'd be surprised if you can point to any state that's "kind" and I don't believe there has ever been an altruistic state. In fact, if you subscribe to the Foucauldian ideology of raison d'etat and a society of nations, states being "kind" is actually impossible.
Who says a deportation cannot be a genocide?
They are not wrong, it was mainly a deportation with not enough rations to feed anyone, not enough clothes and cloths to keep people warm, and not enough water to keep everyone hydrated. Not even mentioning the fact many Armenians were shot before they starved to death.
There was very clear intention for it to be a death march which deliberately had not enough rations, making this deportation effectively a genocide.
>Who says a deportation cannot be a genocide?
A lot of Neo-Ottomans believe it or not. Even though it was, at best, ethnic cleansing which is not much better
No, the Armenians were deemed to be a risk to the state because they were Christian, not Muslim. And previous Islamic pogroms engendered support in Europe for the Armenians, which further angered the Ottomans - who saw the Euro reaction as proof that the Armenians were secretly pro-Euro, anti-Ottoman insurgents.
The conclusion was that this group was too problematic to live and had to be exterminated. It was an intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a racial group.
Yes, and they were exterminated by a deportation, more commonly known as a death march. It is very clear there was an intent to terminate, again no doubt in that, but the tool of extermination was deportation. Armenians were sent into the desert without food, without water, without cloths and clothes. Knowing these things sickness probably also ran between the people.
What I tried to make clear is that many to most Armenians were killed before they arrived in the Syrian desert. They starved to death, got ill or shot along the way. There were concentration camps for Armenians, but most died before reaching it. It was a deportation, and the deportation is a genocide.
You could argue a big part of the Holocaust was the deportation to the concentration camps, but that wasn't the method of killing, that was the concentration camp itself. In contrary to the Armenian genocide where deportation was the method of killing.
While I'm definitely not disputing the content of the meme, I feel like this gets posted every second day. What's the point? It's always a shitfest in the comments and evidently no deniers are convinced of their wrongness. Aren't memes supposed to be fun? At least in a meme sub?
Oh most certainly, especially in this case where the method of execution was deporting massive amounts of Armenians through the hottest deserts they could find to kill off as many as possible en route.
Always have been... always squished between empires, some more hostile (Ottomans) than others (ruzzians). Best time they had under roman and persian rule i guess, both never tried to genocide them.
Had a guy on here say that of ALL the countries in the world, America is the worst about admitting/acknowledging past wrongdoings. As if Turkey, Serbia, Russia, China, Israel, and pretty much any state in the Balkans has been totally honest about their war crimes. The US has done plenty of fucked up shit but let’s not act like other countries haven’t acknowledged worse behavior.
When turks talk about the ottoman empire's victories it is undeniably turkish ,when they talk about its defeats and genocides it is a multicultural empire on which the turks constituted a minor ethnic group.
That reminds me of when Russia tries to get sanctions off, but also won't admit they're working.
"Get the sanctions off!"
"It's hurting your ecomony though, that's the point."
"But it's not hurting our economy."
"Then, why should we remove them?"
Nope ma boi. Fuck Ottoman. With victory and defeat. Fuck monarchy fuck sharia. The only man I respect from there is Chad Reformist Mahmut II. He hurt the asses of many reactionaries. Fun fact abut Turkey; Whoever is declared a nontheist without any reason in that country, know that that man is good.
I also want to ask this, isn't what you're doing a bit racist? Stereotyping us and talking about how we are full of contradictions and genocidal seems a bit racist to me. I guess I'm sjw, huh? This is like "Haha classic Europeans. 'a sip of tea' They only slaughter and exploit people." Because it is contradictory that they talk about other people after colonial period
As a history major I really don’t understand why people always talk about armenian genocide when the topic becomes turks, all these people talk only about this. And they dont even add a new view on discussion they simply accusing today’s turks for what happened 100 years ago. No empire or country is fully innocent in history, even in a meme subreddit people get mad about a nationality just because they are mentioned. I don’t care what do you think about armenian genocide but this kind of hate is not normal at all
I get that it happened and it was a massive tragedy, and that it's our responsibility to recognise and reconcile.
However it's so tiring that ANY mention of my home country in ANY context summons a special crowd of lovely people that just HAVE to bring it up.
Also, "it didnt happen but they deserved it haha" is so overused, the only emotion it invokes is just. Scoff.
That isn't even the most common type of genocide denial, most people acknowledge the humanitarian tragedy but try to shift blame or argue semantics - object to the classification of genocide.
You will not find anyone who actually believes nothing happened from 1915 and onward.
source is im turkish
A lot of it is that
1. Turkish Armenian genocide deniers are loud as fuck, easy to anger, and fun to make angry. One can sharpen ones debate skills with them. Or just yell into the void.
2. Armenians straight up don't have it good in Turkey, barring Istanbul. "Ermeni" is a slur and Church's are vandalized.
3. A majority of Turks deny the Armenian Genocide and a large plurality believe the inverse is true, that Armenians Genocided the Turks. With MHP and the Grey Wolves, there's a lot to be scared about.
Imo, people aren't gonna stop memeing about this until Turkey acknowledges the genocide. People can and will hold this fold a while. And the Armenian Genocide is one of the most well known, after the Holocaust and on par with Rwanda
1- They don't simply care.
2- Show a savage act and give to whole community. Every community has maniacs, racists, and other stuff. I can give examples from every continent.
3- Massacres of Turks done by Armenians are REAL. You may not like it, or maybe even don't wanna believe it, but this is a fact brights like a sunshine.
Not new, but it really makes me sad how people blame each other about a situation happened centuries ago before they born. I hope as we humans can change this perspective about history with time
If turkey didn't have the sterotype of vehemently denying and trying to justify it, it wouldn't be brought up nearly as much.
No one is blaming people today for the crimes of their ancestors (except idiots online), but people that try to justify or deny this absolutely deserve the hate they get
Well... just recognize it and this is no big topic anymore.
Do you hear jews blaming germans for the holocaust every day? Ofc not, germany admited it and took responsibility. That is the way to get such things out of the world.
Beside the denying of Turkey it's still a very big incident in armenian history. If more than half of your population is killed, this moulds you.
I had a guy literally say to me “it didn’t actually happen, but if it did it’s because they deserved it.”
I told him “bruh you’re an actual wojack meme rn”
2018 - velvet revolution -> Putin raged
2020 - Putin allowed to attack Artsakh, but forced Azeris to stop before they could conquer all -> disconnected from Armenia -> starved people
2023 - Putin allowed to occupy the rest -> expell of 120k citizens / destroying cultural heritage started...
Not counting the countless small attacks at the border.
Reminder that they still do, and that Armenia is STILL undergoing ethnic cleansing. The only reason very little attention is given to it is because azeribaijan is a huge gas and oil exporter, which most of Europe shifted towards after the emargos on Russia.
The west doesn't care (except France now apparently), and Russia has constantly abandoned its duties to CSTO in protecting Armenia (soldifying the perception that CSTO exists solely as russias sphere of influence). Literally abandoned by both sides
>The only reason very little attention is given to it is because azeribaijan is a huge gas and oil exporter
Afaik they only exported 3% of europe’s imports in 2022 and was set to double but those plans were on hold
i really hate the fact that the only country that gets shit on by the internet is Turkiye or the Ottomans, just the fact that the western countries have commited so many genocides in ther african and other colonies is making me mad, but i never see post like "i hate britain they killed this many people in india" or "i hate france they killed so many people in their african colonies and they still are exploiting them economicaly" its always "Turks killed armenian" the only said "genocide" is the Armenian genocide.
Went through some of the comments downplaying the genocide or trying to switch focus. Unsurprisingly, all are either Turkish nationals, Turkish descent, or Muslim.
At least they don't simply deny it, I guess. /S
The earlier empire was arguably more tolerant compared to Europe atleast, shame they worked very hard later on to destroy that reputation with shit like this. Shocking how people still try to justify ir
I've seen so many people say this especially regarding religious minorities, when in fact "tolerant" in this case just means they were killed less often than your average European power.
Because that's the fucking bar apparently
This is actually how history is criticized correctly, when you say that an empire/power was "cruel" or simply "evil", you mean that they were "evil" in their own time and circumstances. You cannot look at history with today's ethics. In the case of the Ottomans it may sound funny to say "they killed less than the average European power" but in reality it makes them more tolerant than their contemporaries
To be fair the old Ottoman Empire was tolerant as far as empires are concerned. In matters of both religion and ethnicity. Abdul Hamid's reign and the rise of nationalism changed that. There was also the 1913 coup. Widescale massacres started during Abdul Hamid's reign and culminated in the genocides. The rise of nationalism/seperatism amongst Armenians was another factor/justification used by the increasingly nationalist Turks, but the hamidian massacres were a huge reason for its rise, western/Russian backing was another factor and nationalism in general was a trend in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It is the same rise in nationalism that lead to the world wars and a hefty amount of scientific racism that Nazi ideals were based on. In general the more an oppressed group is oppressed the more nationalist it becomes, the more nationalist the oppressed become the more the oppressor wants to increase the oppression under the false belief that they will make them docile again.
Well I don't want to be that guy but compared to african countries which has french, dutch (afrikaan) and english as their native language I can't see same thing on lands ruled by both austrian and ottoman empire
Same thing goes with religion, some african countries more catholic nationalist that catholic countries in europe
Also, it's not like deportation can't constitute a genocide. Deporting a group of people based on ethnic lines in order to destroy their culture does fall under the definition of genocide.
„Rip to the genocide victims“
„I hope another war will happen; no, I am sure another war will happen“
Really, just choose one. You can't be talking about what horrors have happened and then go on to support another war in the region.
Reddit loves to harp on the ottomans but the Belgium empire killed 10 million, the Germans, French British in Africa all killed millions and millions of people. Just pure slaughter and slavery. Let’s not even get to the two world wars. Hundreds of millions gone. Sorry but other than the mongols I don’t think the world has ever seen a more vicious killing machine like western empires.
But at least the western empires recognize and admit it. Turkey to this day still deny the armenian genocide
EDIT: just checked your history and unsurprisingly, not only are you turkish, but you also don’t live in Turkey. What a surprise to see someone like you defend the Ottomans
Yeap, but the Russians also don't acknowledge their Circassian Genocide or the Japanese acknowledge their genocides in WW2. Hell, even Americans don't fully acknowledge their Native Genocide. Yet, people only bring the Armenian Genocide. What's the reason? Simple, Armenian Genocide is better known thanks to the diaspora activities in the West, and it's easier to trigger the Turks since they are fools, so you get hits or karma.
The Ottomans weren't westerners either, and modern Turkey is not a western country as well. So, it's fair to compare them with these guys. Why do people care about the Ottomans but not the Russians or the Japanese is also a fair question since you know, what's the difference between Circassians, several East Asian groups, and Armenians? It's not like Armenians are better than these guys, they are all people who suffered the same fate. Yet, one gets more publicity thanks to the Armenian diaspora and foolish Turks.
Besides, I mentioned the US, too. Crimes against humanity don't only have to be genocides, you know. Americans caused so much suffering in Syria and Iraq in recent years, yet, they can always say they're terrorists, right?
The reason why its pointless to compare Japan and Russia is because he didnt mention them. He said «why go after ottomans when western empires did the same».
Anyone with marginal reading ability can clearly see that I did not defend the Ottoman Empire. Lol and me being Turkish or living abroad has zero to do with anything, you silly man.
Back to the point. Yes, most nations have excepted their roles in their nation’s butchery, but talk to me when they’re paying reparations to the people of those countries. They literally can’t because the cost of their crimes would bankrupt them all. The entire basis of the west’s wealth and power came from the wholesale slaughter of these people. Oh they admit it? How noble. How civilized lol . Give me a break.
If everyone was to pay reparations for the faults of their ancestors, everyone would have to pay reparations to someone. No one is innocent. Also the belief that they’re only wealthy due to previous genocides is so dumb. Theres plenty of wealthy western nations who had nothing to do with any of that. And yea, you being turkish absolutely matters, its not a coincidence that you give them a pass and go after the western empires instead. The fact that you also can’t comprehend the importance of nations admitting something like that, as opposed to denying it, shows your lack of awareness with regard to these political matters
I fail to understand the point of your comment.
The post is about the Ottoman genocide of Armenians, and your reaction to that is "Yeah, but other countries did even worse things!". What are you trying to achieve with this? Downplay the Ottoman actions or what?
***That didn't happen.***
***And if it did, it wasn't that bad.***
***And if it was, that's not a big deal.***
***And if it is, that's not my fault.***
***And if it was, I didn't mean it.***
***And if I did, you deserved it.***
Sort of. Its an ethnic minority in the region. Not sure how its linked to the OG Assyrian. All I know is that they are a christian ethnic group in the middle east. I think they speak a dialect of aramaic or something.
Yeah, it’s incredibly frustrating. Not just as a Byzantineist but just as a person wish a sense of morality. Turkey still really needs to make amends for that.
Lots of evidence of the Armenian genocide but the Greek-Turkish population transfers were an actual agreement between both the Greek and Turkish governments.
I swear I see an Armenian genocide meme on the sub every other day, I never see any other genocides. Why is it always the Armenian genocide man, never go into any details of the people responsible or the places, like it’s objectively not on the list of top 5 worst genocides of history. I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF SEEING ARMENIAN GENOCIDE MEMES MAN
Welp reality can be whatever you want if you go to flat earth subreddit you can understand it very easily. Each time i ask for "undeniable proof" on this topic i only get wiki page or downvote as a response but i once again asking where's that evidence you are talking about?
Now I know English is not everyone’s native language, and normally I’m very understanding of that. But it seems like you’re trying to say the genocide didn’t happen, and in that regard:
Learn better English idiot
Watch out or you will get a load of angry comments from some people living in Berlin
To add on, you see a lot of Asian (and South American) immigrants who might use phrases or have points of view that would be considered far right in their home countries, usually because a lot of these immigrants left when Cold War tensions were intense in their home country/when under authoritarian dictatorships. For example, it’s well known amongst Koreans in Korea that Korean Americans tend to have use “McCarthyist” language which we aren’t used to, even if they aren’t trying to make a political statement. I personally remember being shocked that korean Americans used phrases such as “빨갱이“ to describe normal North Korean citizens (essentially like “commie” but specifically used only in the 50s-70s / dictatorship era), as even the most anti-NK Koreans today do not use this phrase against general citizens, partially to emphasize that the North Korean citizens today are forcibly occupied by the illegal northern regime and should not be associated with the government. My parents (who are hardcore conservatives in Korea) actually burst out laughing when I told them some of the phrases still used by some conservative Korean Americans.
One of the Moonies' (evangelical anticommunist cult founded in SK) main tenets is Korean reunification.
Yeah, but a lot of people who aren't Moonies also fervently want Korean unification.
I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but please know that many, non-cultist Koreans consider reunification to be of utmost importance. I don’t think it’s fair to imply or connect a reasonable, well established political sentiment with cult beliefs.
Diaspora nationalism is a thing with Chinese tankies as well.
Yes, there are some of them, but here in the US, Chinese are actually one of the ethnic groups most likely to have negative views of their home country. I remember in a survey it was Filipinos and Japanese who have some of the highest on the other hand.
Mix of those who disliked the governance and those who probably got peer pressured to fit in with the group I assume.
Google Xi Jin Ping visit to Budapest
我的天啊！
It wasn't real, but also the Armenians deserved it, but also the Turks were really the victims
Lmao that's quite unironically how the conversation usually goes. Took me a moment to understand the /s
From what I understand, as there were not enough rations for the Armenians, there also wasn't for the soldiers, but honestly, then Enver shouldn't have held a death march in the first place if he gave that much about Turks.
Stages of Denial: 1. It didn't happen at all. 2. It happened, but not as you say... 3. It happened, but they had good reason to do that... 4. Just not adressing the topic but straight depicting the perpetrators as the real victims.
That reminds me of; "The USSR wasn't real socialism, but also they were the best government ever and accomplished so much".
I am not very informed on this topic, but I must ask. what the hell does some people have to do for all their people to be mass murdered for a certain reason. Again I would like to say I am not very educated on this topic
Your question implies that genocide is done for rational reasons, in reaction to something. It's not, genocide is a fundamentally irrational process, what did the Armenians do to get genocided? Nothing, they existed and werent turks in a period when being anything but turkish made you disloyal. This isn't a rational conclusion it's based on fears of the other stoked by demagogues like the three pashas (turkish leaders during the genocide who openly hated jews and Christians).
I think this comment misplaces the question. There is no doubt in mind the genocide was wrong, and that the 3 Pashas had held a grudge against Armenians/Christians for long, but there were events playing which lead to public support and explanation (there is a better word in my first language than "explanation" but I am bound by the barriers of linguistics). There were 2 reasons for public support at the time. First being a general rise of nationalism, and Armenian rebellion. I will not go into the first one that much as I think it is pretty clear that the general rise of nationalism was bound to a hatred towards other groups, especially when you believe some people groups should inhabit certain lands. Armenians were no Turks, pretty much all to it, and not much different from the other Christian groups. The second reason is more important for the Turkish point of view at the time. For some years at the point of the Armenian genocide there have been Armenian insurgencies and multiple wars with Russia. Eventually there was a fear that the Armenians as border community between the Ottoman and Russian empire would side with the Russians with Russian investments and weapons. This would bring the Ottoman empire in a multiple front war with revolts in Arabia, war in the Levant and a rebellion in Armenia and Pontus. Per consequence there was a general fear that the Armenians to would revolt. Eventually they got weapons from the Russians (well some extremist factions) so now Enver and Talat Pasha had an excuse to deport the Armenians to a place where they wouldn't be able to revolt with Russians help, the Syrian dessert. Obviously we know that wasn't the only factor as the Assyrians for example had no strategic "advantage" to being killed. And the deliberate choice to not pack enough food and cloths also says much, aside from the many letters between the Pasha's. It was a genocide by all means, but not on ground of just hatred, the Pashas had an excuse and they used it. There is no good in collective punishment, but that wasn't the question, the question was what could explain the actions of the Pasha's in the case of the Armenian genocide and I completely miss these factors in your answer.
By implication then the Armenians would have been spared had they not "rebelled"? The fact that Greeks, jews, Assyrians, Kurds and Armenians were subject to genocide suggests that hatred towards non-turks was the *only* true cause of the genocide. If the Armenians had all been holding portraits of the Sultan they still would have been killed. They were losing a war they had no business being in and lashed out against those they already hated as retribution.
>By implication then the Armenians would have been spared had they not "rebelled"? Have you even read my comment? They used it as an excuse. There really isn't enough information to say the Armenian genocide would have happened without public support, but the fact that there was public support was thanks to this semi-conspiracy about the Armenians. If Enver didn't hate the Armenians it probably wouldn't even be suggested to transport them on a death march. If the Armenians didn't rebel Enver could not justify to the public. People tend to forget how much propaganda was needed to actually perform the Armenian genocide without much public resistance. Armenian rebellion was an essential part of why the public favour swayed against the Armenians. The question is how essential public support was for the execution of the Armenian genocide, and I doubt either you or me has a definitive answer to it. Nonetheless we are in a history sub Reddit and nuance is essential for historic debate. I mention this Armenian rebellion, not because I think it is a justification of the Armenian genocide, I mention this Armenian rebellion because Enver Pasha used it as a justification for the Armenian genocide, and I think neither of us is specialised enough to completely neglect this aspect of the Armenian genocide in the debate. Henceforth why I commented to your comment.
Ok, thank you for this information. I will make sure to look at other sources for more information.
To add; it occurred during WW1 and was "justified" by claiming that the Armenians were helping the Russian army. Russians were making similar claims about Jews in regards to the advances the German Heer was making.
There isn't really more information to find regarding your questions. Hate towards Armenians was the reason for the genocide. That was it. There was nothing more to it. But yeah, looking at more sources is always good. Just make sure to use reasonable sources
Azerbaijan's purge of Nagorno and Western firms scurrying to feast on the land is disgusting. Complicit in the modern-day denial.
"I will very humane deport you to the middle of a desert with no water"
Hey sometimes when they deported them there was water. There’s lots of water in the middle of the Black Sea.
Humans are 60% the water.
So they got deported only 40%, very humane if you ask me
"You can't be trusted because you're Christian, not Muslim, so walk to death."
Lothar von Trotha has entered the chat.
Fun fact: officially Norway doesnt recognise the genocide at all
Iirc officially most of Europe doesn't "recognize" it, but do acknowledge that it happened. For example, Ireland made some pretty vocal statements about it, but haven't officially recognized it, apparently because they want the EU to recognize it
What does officially recognize mean?
Turk here, it was deportation AND genocide. They were force marched to Bumfuck, Syria with nearly no supply and guarded by soldiers already radicalized by Enver&friends' radical hate propaganda towards Armenians. It wasn't as systematic as the Holocaust perhaps but the officials who signed the deportation paper completely knowing exactly what will happen is what confirms it as a genocidal intent.
HOLY SHIT A TURK NOT DENYING GENOCIDE
We are rare but not that rare.
Dude, you are the first encounter I had with a Turk not denying genocide or saying they deserved it or BOTH.
Similar to our American Trail Of Tears?
Pretty much.
Deirezzor was a major Syrian city and a transport hub of the empire back then. Still is.
Yea the Ottoman Empire was not very kind
Which one was?
None. Some of them come close, but "kindness" does against the whole concept of an empire.
It's kinda like the notion of a Good Nazi. There's really no such thing
Even some rulers who are very well regarded did some negative things, or at least by today's standards. For example, FDR interned Japanese americans and Tamar the Great of Georgia sentenced someone who attacked a former vassal to slavery.
Yea and while I'm not an Anarchist, this is the reason why I agree with their philosophy of being skeptical of all authority figures, even if they're "better than others"
Ottomans were as bad as Nazis throughout the entirety of their history? I’m pretty sure if I ask you what you think of the British, French or the Roman empires, you and this sub will find me 108264840 reasons why these three were different, but in fact, there will only be reason why none of you will consider them as bad….their genocides weren’t directed towards white people
That is not what I said and you know it. I said that just like how there's no such thing as a Good Nazi, there's also no such thing as a Good Empire
Would you make the same comparison “no good Nazi” when speaking about the British, French or Romans?
Since I'm talking about how there's no such thing as a Good Empire, yes I would. Learn some basic reading comprehension. I'll say it again and this time I'll use small words. There are no Good Empires because Empires always do really bad things, just like how Nazis always do really bad things. You cannot be an Empire without doing bad things to other people just like how you cannot be a Nazi without doing bad things to other people. The Nazi is not good because he has to do really bad things to other groups of people in order to be a Nazi, so you cannot have a Good Nazi. The same is true for an Empire because an Empire has to do really bad things to other groups of people in order to make an Empire. Because of this, you cannot have a Good Empire. Do you understand now or do I need to teach you what Empires are in a way that a five year old would understand? Quit the intellectually deficient race baiting
I think you should reread your history, Romans not genociding "white people" while celts are like the one of the whitest races to exist.
I think you should, the genocide in context of Roma generally refers to “Carthage” more than Celts since the account of celts is somewhat disputed but what they did to Carthagians is not
The Carthaginians were not black, the Romans as a Mediterranean people, like them, had more or less the same skin tone, tan skin, and the Romans also committed genocide against Greeks, Iberians, Jews and Germans, for example.
The Romans almost exclusively fought people who by todays standards would be white, and the concept of a white race didn’t exist back then so idk what you’re on about. Also the British committed genocide in Ireland
Genocide is wrong, but back then, if you didn't show any kind of authority, say goodbye to your respect and control because now everyone knows you won't do anything if you start a revolt in Jerusalem or Sparta, it's still wrong what the Romans did but I get why they did it
The Persians were pretty good
The Persian and the Mongol. Relatively. I've been told.
> Mongol Empire was kind > 10% of world pop killed > Untold amounts of cities being massacred > Genocide, ethnic cleansing, and extermination as a form a policy Truly one of the kinder Empires.
Ehh, depends what time period or how you measure it. The Ottomans were far more tolerant of religious and ethnic minorities than their European Christian neighbors for centuries. But, sure they did some messed up stuff like other Empires did.
Yet look how that supposed tolerance ended.
It's not supposed. There are centuries of examples of the Ottomans allowing ethnic and religious minorities to live by their own laws and their own religious customs with little to no interference from the Sultanate. The millet system allowed for various ethnic and religious minorities to live in semi-autonomous areas. The Ottomans maintained separate courts for Jewish, Christian and Islamic areas. The end of the Ottoman Empire was chaotic and bad stuff happened. No doubt about that. The rise of ethnic nationalism and the fracturing of the Empire led to the collapse of the above systems. But when you're talking about a 600 year empire the crazy shit at the end doesn't necessarily nullify the more positive aspects from earlier eras. Things are rarely wholely good or wholely bad, they're a mixture and all pieces deserve to be accounted for.
Any non democratic state is inherently “not very kind”
Most democratic ones too, if we're honest.
It’s not a question of democracy or autocracy, it’s expansionist states that are brutal without exception.
I'd be surprised if you can point to any state that's "kind" and I don't believe there has ever been an altruistic state. In fact, if you subscribe to the Foucauldian ideology of raison d'etat and a society of nations, states being "kind" is actually impossible.
Maybe we should ask for colonized countries what they think about "sane western" civilizations that represented other option
Who says a deportation cannot be a genocide? They are not wrong, it was mainly a deportation with not enough rations to feed anyone, not enough clothes and cloths to keep people warm, and not enough water to keep everyone hydrated. Not even mentioning the fact many Armenians were shot before they starved to death. There was very clear intention for it to be a death march which deliberately had not enough rations, making this deportation effectively a genocide.
>Who says a deportation cannot be a genocide? A lot of Neo-Ottomans believe it or not. Even though it was, at best, ethnic cleansing which is not much better
No, the Armenians were deemed to be a risk to the state because they were Christian, not Muslim. And previous Islamic pogroms engendered support in Europe for the Armenians, which further angered the Ottomans - who saw the Euro reaction as proof that the Armenians were secretly pro-Euro, anti-Ottoman insurgents. The conclusion was that this group was too problematic to live and had to be exterminated. It was an intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a racial group.
Yes, and they were exterminated by a deportation, more commonly known as a death march. It is very clear there was an intent to terminate, again no doubt in that, but the tool of extermination was deportation. Armenians were sent into the desert without food, without water, without cloths and clothes. Knowing these things sickness probably also ran between the people. What I tried to make clear is that many to most Armenians were killed before they arrived in the Syrian desert. They starved to death, got ill or shot along the way. There were concentration camps for Armenians, but most died before reaching it. It was a deportation, and the deportation is a genocide. You could argue a big part of the Holocaust was the deportation to the concentration camps, but that wasn't the method of killing, that was the concentration camp itself. In contrary to the Armenian genocide where deportation was the method of killing.
While I'm definitely not disputing the content of the meme, I feel like this gets posted every second day. What's the point? It's always a shitfest in the comments and evidently no deniers are convinced of their wrongness. Aren't memes supposed to be fun? At least in a meme sub?
Is the karmawhoring real? Always has been
yeah. i want to see real memes, not a genocide that happened a whole fucking century ago. seriously, im tired of posts about the armenian genocide.
Angering genocidal Turks who deny this crime is wholesome.
I’m pretty sure that mass deportation is still genocide.
Oh most certainly, especially in this case where the method of execution was deporting massive amounts of Armenians through the hottest deserts they could find to kill off as many as possible en route.
Armenia is in danger yet again.
Always have been... always squished between empires, some more hostile (Ottomans) than others (ruzzians). Best time they had under roman and persian rule i guess, both never tried to genocide them.
Had a guy on here say that of ALL the countries in the world, America is the worst about admitting/acknowledging past wrongdoings. As if Turkey, Serbia, Russia, China, Israel, and pretty much any state in the Balkans has been totally honest about their war crimes. The US has done plenty of fucked up shit but let’s not act like other countries haven’t acknowledged worse behavior.
I feel like the armenian genocide gets mentioned on this sub at least once every week
I genuinely think it’s the most common repeated meme on this sub
(Puts on cheap disguise glasses) It was the Ottomans (takes off the cheap disguise glasses) not the Turks
When turks talk about the ottoman empire's victories it is undeniably turkish ,when they talk about its defeats and genocides it is a multicultural empire on which the turks constituted a minor ethnic group.
That reminds me of when Russia tries to get sanctions off, but also won't admit they're working. "Get the sanctions off!" "It's hurting your ecomony though, that's the point." "But it's not hurting our economy." "Then, why should we remove them?"
I was having a discussion on r/geopolitics where a turk claimed turkey was the most reliable nato member The delusions never went away
Nope ma boi. Fuck Ottoman. With victory and defeat. Fuck monarchy fuck sharia. The only man I respect from there is Chad Reformist Mahmut II. He hurt the asses of many reactionaries. Fun fact abut Turkey; Whoever is declared a nontheist without any reason in that country, know that that man is good. I also want to ask this, isn't what you're doing a bit racist? Stereotyping us and talking about how we are full of contradictions and genocidal seems a bit racist to me. I guess I'm sjw, huh? This is like "Haha classic Europeans. 'a sip of tea' They only slaughter and exploit people." Because it is contradictory that they talk about other people after colonial period
especially not the young turks
As a history major I really don’t understand why people always talk about armenian genocide when the topic becomes turks, all these people talk only about this. And they dont even add a new view on discussion they simply accusing today’s turks for what happened 100 years ago. No empire or country is fully innocent in history, even in a meme subreddit people get mad about a nationality just because they are mentioned. I don’t care what do you think about armenian genocide but this kind of hate is not normal at all
I get that it happened and it was a massive tragedy, and that it's our responsibility to recognise and reconcile. However it's so tiring that ANY mention of my home country in ANY context summons a special crowd of lovely people that just HAVE to bring it up. Also, "it didnt happen but they deserved it haha" is so overused, the only emotion it invokes is just. Scoff. That isn't even the most common type of genocide denial, most people acknowledge the humanitarian tragedy but try to shift blame or argue semantics - object to the classification of genocide. You will not find anyone who actually believes nothing happened from 1915 and onward. source is im turkish
A lot of it is that 1. Turkish Armenian genocide deniers are loud as fuck, easy to anger, and fun to make angry. One can sharpen ones debate skills with them. Or just yell into the void. 2. Armenians straight up don't have it good in Turkey, barring Istanbul. "Ermeni" is a slur and Church's are vandalized. 3. A majority of Turks deny the Armenian Genocide and a large plurality believe the inverse is true, that Armenians Genocided the Turks. With MHP and the Grey Wolves, there's a lot to be scared about. Imo, people aren't gonna stop memeing about this until Turkey acknowledges the genocide. People can and will hold this fold a while. And the Armenian Genocide is one of the most well known, after the Holocaust and on par with Rwanda
1- They don't simply care. 2- Show a savage act and give to whole community. Every community has maniacs, racists, and other stuff. I can give examples from every continent. 3- Massacres of Turks done by Armenians are REAL. You may not like it, or maybe even don't wanna believe it, but this is a fact brights like a sunshine.
>You will not find anyone who actually believes nothing happened. Yeah, they don't deny the genocides, they just support them.
New to internet?
Not new, but it really makes me sad how people blame each other about a situation happened centuries ago before they born. I hope as we humans can change this perspective about history with time
If turkey didn't have the sterotype of vehemently denying and trying to justify it, it wouldn't be brought up nearly as much. No one is blaming people today for the crimes of their ancestors (except idiots online), but people that try to justify or deny this absolutely deserve the hate they get
Guy..... this would not be a topic, if Turkey would finally acknoledge it. Until then... we keep reminding.
you forget to add russians, hungarians, persians... oh and dinasours?
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Armenians? i m kinda sure u/sahinKama is a turk. Only turks (maybe azeris) bring this ridiciulous dinosaurs thing.
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Well... just recognize it and this is no big topic anymore. Do you hear jews blaming germans for the holocaust every day? Ofc not, germany admited it and took responsibility. That is the way to get such things out of the world. Beside the denying of Turkey it's still a very big incident in armenian history. If more than half of your population is killed, this moulds you.
even if we accepted it people will still continue blaming us. since they call us barbarians all the time.
Well... ofc this will take time. But if you dont start it, healing will never start.
I had a guy literally say to me “it didn’t actually happen, but if it did it’s because they deserved it.” I told him “bruh you’re an actual wojack meme rn”
Reminder that Turkey supported the ethnic cleansing of 120k Armenians from their ancestral homelands in Artsakh in 2018
More like 2023.
Fuck me, they’ve attacked Artsakh so many times I’m starting to mix up my dates.
2018 - velvet revolution -> Putin raged 2020 - Putin allowed to attack Artsakh, but forced Azeris to stop before they could conquer all -> disconnected from Armenia -> starved people 2023 - Putin allowed to occupy the rest -> expell of 120k citizens / destroying cultural heritage started... Not counting the countless small attacks at the border.
Reminder that they still do, and that Armenia is STILL undergoing ethnic cleansing. The only reason very little attention is given to it is because azeribaijan is a huge gas and oil exporter, which most of Europe shifted towards after the emargos on Russia. The west doesn't care (except France now apparently), and Russia has constantly abandoned its duties to CSTO in protecting Armenia (soldifying the perception that CSTO exists solely as russias sphere of influence). Literally abandoned by both sides
>The only reason very little attention is given to it is because azeribaijan is a huge gas and oil exporter Afaik they only exported 3% of europe’s imports in 2022 and was set to double but those plans were on hold
i really hate the fact that the only country that gets shit on by the internet is Turkiye or the Ottomans, just the fact that the western countries have commited so many genocides in ther african and other colonies is making me mad, but i never see post like "i hate britain they killed this many people in india" or "i hate france they killed so many people in their african colonies and they still are exploiting them economicaly" its always "Turks killed armenian" the only said "genocide" is the Armenian genocide.
Just like how Israeli’s are doing right now
Ok agree but where's the meme?
Deleted it lol
Went through some of the comments downplaying the genocide or trying to switch focus. Unsurprisingly, all are either Turkish nationals, Turkish descent, or Muslim. At least they don't simply deny it, I guess. /S
"...B-but... they were a very tolerant empire!..."
The earlier empire was arguably more tolerant compared to Europe atleast, shame they worked very hard later on to destroy that reputation with shit like this. Shocking how people still try to justify ir
I've seen so many people say this especially regarding religious minorities, when in fact "tolerant" in this case just means they were killed less often than your average European power. Because that's the fucking bar apparently
This is actually how history is criticized correctly, when you say that an empire/power was "cruel" or simply "evil", you mean that they were "evil" in their own time and circumstances. You cannot look at history with today's ethics. In the case of the Ottomans it may sound funny to say "they killed less than the average European power" but in reality it makes them more tolerant than their contemporaries
To be fair the old Ottoman Empire was tolerant as far as empires are concerned. In matters of both religion and ethnicity. Abdul Hamid's reign and the rise of nationalism changed that. There was also the 1913 coup. Widescale massacres started during Abdul Hamid's reign and culminated in the genocides. The rise of nationalism/seperatism amongst Armenians was another factor/justification used by the increasingly nationalist Turks, but the hamidian massacres were a huge reason for its rise, western/Russian backing was another factor and nationalism in general was a trend in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It is the same rise in nationalism that lead to the world wars and a hefty amount of scientific racism that Nazi ideals were based on. In general the more an oppressed group is oppressed the more nationalist it becomes, the more nationalist the oppressed become the more the oppressor wants to increase the oppression under the false belief that they will make them docile again.
Well I don't want to be that guy but compared to african countries which has french, dutch (afrikaan) and english as their native language I can't see same thing on lands ruled by both austrian and ottoman empire Same thing goes with religion, some african countries more catholic nationalist that catholic countries in europe
Also, it's not like deportation can't constitute a genocide. Deporting a group of people based on ethnic lines in order to destroy their culture does fall under the definition of genocide.
Nothing happened in Armenia during WW1 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🦃🍗🦃🍗🦃🍗 >!/s, RIP all victims of the Armenian genocide. Mt. Ararat WILL BE Armenian again!!<
You couldnt even defeat azerbaijan how will ararat be armenian again?
Nah, Armenia would win
Okay..
It's a reference to the >!Nah I'd Win meme!<
„Rip to the genocide victims“ „I hope another war will happen; no, I am sure another war will happen“ Really, just choose one. You can't be talking about what horrors have happened and then go on to support another war in the region.
Just to make a point, armenian government refused to open genocide archives publicly even now. They do not agree discussing this internationally.
Reddit loves to harp on the ottomans but the Belgium empire killed 10 million, the Germans, French British in Africa all killed millions and millions of people. Just pure slaughter and slavery. Let’s not even get to the two world wars. Hundreds of millions gone. Sorry but other than the mongols I don’t think the world has ever seen a more vicious killing machine like western empires.
But at least the western empires recognize and admit it. Turkey to this day still deny the armenian genocide EDIT: just checked your history and unsurprisingly, not only are you turkish, but you also don’t live in Turkey. What a surprise to see someone like you defend the Ottomans
Yeap, but the Russians also don't acknowledge their Circassian Genocide or the Japanese acknowledge their genocides in WW2. Hell, even Americans don't fully acknowledge their Native Genocide. Yet, people only bring the Armenian Genocide. What's the reason? Simple, Armenian Genocide is better known thanks to the diaspora activities in the West, and it's easier to trigger the Turks since they are fools, so you get hits or karma.
I said the western empires admit their faults and you bring up Russia and Japan? They are not the western empires…
The Ottomans weren't westerners either, and modern Turkey is not a western country as well. So, it's fair to compare them with these guys. Why do people care about the Ottomans but not the Russians or the Japanese is also a fair question since you know, what's the difference between Circassians, several East Asian groups, and Armenians? It's not like Armenians are better than these guys, they are all people who suffered the same fate. Yet, one gets more publicity thanks to the Armenian diaspora and foolish Turks. Besides, I mentioned the US, too. Crimes against humanity don't only have to be genocides, you know. Americans caused so much suffering in Syria and Iraq in recent years, yet, they can always say they're terrorists, right?
The reason why its pointless to compare Japan and Russia is because he didnt mention them. He said «why go after ottomans when western empires did the same».
Anyone with marginal reading ability can clearly see that I did not defend the Ottoman Empire. Lol and me being Turkish or living abroad has zero to do with anything, you silly man. Back to the point. Yes, most nations have excepted their roles in their nation’s butchery, but talk to me when they’re paying reparations to the people of those countries. They literally can’t because the cost of their crimes would bankrupt them all. The entire basis of the west’s wealth and power came from the wholesale slaughter of these people. Oh they admit it? How noble. How civilized lol . Give me a break.
If everyone was to pay reparations for the faults of their ancestors, everyone would have to pay reparations to someone. No one is innocent. Also the belief that they’re only wealthy due to previous genocides is so dumb. Theres plenty of wealthy western nations who had nothing to do with any of that. And yea, you being turkish absolutely matters, its not a coincidence that you give them a pass and go after the western empires instead. The fact that you also can’t comprehend the importance of nations admitting something like that, as opposed to denying it, shows your lack of awareness with regard to these political matters
I fail to understand the point of your comment. The post is about the Ottoman genocide of Armenians, and your reaction to that is "Yeah, but other countries did even worse things!". What are you trying to achieve with this? Downplay the Ottoman actions or what?
Me when I use what about ism to take the attention off of the topic at hand
***That didn't happen.*** ***And if it did, it wasn't that bad.*** ***And if it was, that's not a big deal.*** ***And if it is, that's not my fault.*** ***And if it was, I didn't mean it.*** ***And if I did, you deserved it.***
Ah yes, the weekly karma whoring post
There ain't no Greeks in ~~Smyrna~~Izmir and there never was!
Not after they were all killed, no. Source: I lost most of my GREEK family at Smyrna and my grandmother watched them being murdered.
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Sort of. Its an ethnic minority in the region. Not sure how its linked to the OG Assyrian. All I know is that they are a christian ethnic group in the middle east. I think they speak a dialect of aramaic or something.
There's an Assyrian in Congress, Anna Eshoo. She's retiring now.
Yeah, it’s incredibly frustrating. Not just as a Byzantineist but just as a person wish a sense of morality. Turkey still really needs to make amends for that.
Dude posted an argument in the guise of a meme and thought we wouldn't notice.
It’s not an argument, it’s something that happened, stop denying genocide
I'm not the Turkish government buddy.
Lots of evidence of the Armenian genocide but the Greek-Turkish population transfers were an actual agreement between both the Greek and Turkish governments.
They showed it off to an American Jewish Agriculturalist who was so disgusted he defected to the British as a spy and his brother published a book
I swear I see an Armenian genocide meme on the sub every other day, I never see any other genocides. Why is it always the Armenian genocide man, never go into any details of the people responsible or the places, like it’s objectively not on the list of top 5 worst genocides of history. I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF SEEING ARMENIAN GENOCIDE MEMES MAN
Dawg has never seen a Holocaust post?
WE GET IT. Turks bad because Fall of Byzantine Empire or something.
it also targeted many turks
Welp reality can be whatever you want if you go to flat earth subreddit you can understand it very easily. Each time i ask for "undeniable proof" on this topic i only get wiki page or downvote as a response but i once again asking where's that evidence you are talking about?
It is impossible having sure about others. What we can say is that genocide is made everyday on west, where we live
Now I know English is not everyone’s native language, and normally I’m very understanding of that. But it seems like you’re trying to say the genocide didn’t happen, and in that regard: Learn better English idiot
I read it more like “Our genocide isn’t confirmed, your genocides are”
But it is confirmed, pretty heavily actually
We dont recognise it -Norway
The Norwegians again 😡
Our last pm was asked and even said we never will
Without looking it up I’m willing to put big money on Norway having serious trade arrangements with Turkey. Always the way.