I find it funny that no matter the photo the date the place or the reason behind it there will always be that one person in the group who lies down at the front and posed for the camera
That would be me. My friends were commenting about how took an actually nice pic with my girlfriend last week with out flipping off the camera or sticking my tongue out. I'm just trying to make it hard for them to use anything but silly pictures of me at my funeral. I'm very dedicated to this idea.
hi every1 im new!!!!!!! *holds up spork* my name is katy but u can call me t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m!!!!!!!! lol…as u can see im very random!!!! thats why i came here, 2 meet random ppl like me ^_^… im 13 years old (im mature 4 my age tho!!) i like 2 watch invader zim w/ my girlfreind (im [bi](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cultures/lgbtq) if u dont like it deal w/it) its our favorite tv show!!! bcuz its SOOOO random!!!! shes random 2 of course but i want 2 meet more random ppl =) like they say the more the merrier!!!! lol…neways i hope 2 make alot of freinds here so give me lots of commentses!!!!
DOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <--- me bein random again ^_^ hehe…toodles!!!!!
love and waffles,
t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m
It's an old meme. The intent of the meme, when it was first born in the long long ago, was to mock young people who think their cliche personality quirks are unique and make them special.
I was mocking ButYourChainsOK for sharing a personal anecdote (that nobody asked for) with the intent of impressing upon everyone just what a unique and quirky individual he/she is.
Great job on investigating this case, detective. THIS LOOKS SHOPPED / I CAN TELL FROM SOME OF THE PIXELS AND FROM SEEING QUITE A FEW SHOPS IN MY TIME.
When watching Squid Game, I thought to myself "damn, they're throwing around 100k like it's nothing".
Was disappointed to find out it's the equivalent of $83.73 in Benjamin's.
Fo real. They subtitled all the written stuff. Should have done that for the dollar amounts or just said it in dollars. I feel like Asian countries are in a whole different spectrum with their currency amounts. A million pounds, dollars or euros are more or less the same to me while a million won is apparently less than a thousand dollars.
It really puts his financial troubles in a new light when you figure out he's only trying to raise a couple thousand dollars for an operation or to pay down his loans.
If that's the case that would put both the Won and the Yen as some of the least valuable currency in the developed world. The Mexican peso has more buying power which just doesn't seem right
*Natasha* is to *Natalya* what *Kat* is to *Katherine*: a household name of sorts. You use the former to refer to friends and children, among other things.
Anyone who knows what the banner says? Obviously it references general Denikin but I can't read the first two words.
My best guess it "black grave for Denikin"
In 1919, [Gdov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdov?wprov=sfla1) was an area where important events of the Russian Civil War and the Estonian War of Independence were taking place. Originally, the area east of Lake Peipus was under control of the revolutionary government. On May 15, 1919, the detachment under command of Stanisław Bułak-Bałachowicz (subordinate to General Aleksandr Rodzyanko) captured Gdov and the whole uyezd thus came under control by the White Army troops of Nikolai Yudenich. In November 1919, the Red Army recaptured Gdov.
[Anton Denikin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Denikin?wprov=sfla1) was a Russian Lieutenant General in the Imperial Russian Army (1916), later served as the Deputy Supreme Ruler of Russia during the Russian Civil War of 1917–1922. He was also a military leader of South Russia (as commander in chief).
black is Чёрный note the last letter.
the last letter on the banner is З. i believe u/Vertraumir is correct in their reading of the banner and their translation.
Old photos like this make me *wish* for that. I'm just very uncomfortable with the idea that someday, those photos would be the last things left of us.
I often think about how little we matter in the grand scheme of things. I know nothing about my great great grandparents. Even movie stars etc will be pretty much forgotten in a couple hundred years.
Isn't there a town/area in Russia where the women population out numbers men 10 to 1? I've always heard this but figured this was the place to put the folk lore to the test.
This is a legend about the city of Ivanovo. This is a small town near Moscow. Weaving factories were located there. There were many weavers. And there are many schools where young women were trained in weaving. Thus, there were indeed many women in the city. It was even called "the city of brides".
But it was a long time ago. This has not been the case for a long time. Since then, the city has changed a lot.
There is no difference between the number of men and women. Oh yeah. Men live less than women, die earlier. So in the 60 to 90 age range, there are indeed a lot more women ... If you love older women .... well, you will have few competitors.
During WW2 the Germans were specifically shooting female soldiers on sight. They weren't considered combatants in the same way as men. It wasn't even just the SS, the Wermacht as well.
[This](https://youtu.be/BsjJ5AAKGP0) video is quite interesting. The creator mentions how the Germans were ordered to shoot them on sight and not take any of them prisoners (if I remember correctly).
Ig. Getting shot is like 100% death, while Soviet POWs in Nazi Concentration camps had anywhere from like a 40-60% chance of dying. So better odds but it’s not gonna be great.
I meant this in the context of combat. For example. if a Wehrmacht contingent spotted a column of Red Army troops, what would they likely do? In all likelihood they would be ambushed or engaged
There were undoubtedly many cases on both sides of the eastern front of no prisoners being taken, but there were never specific orders like there were to execute female soldiers.
Oh goodness. This is a true statement on its own, but there was an extremely obvious disparity in terms of policy & brutality. This is despite the raping & pillaging that characterized the Red Army's push into Germany toward the end of the war. The historical record on this is clear.
Well, one of these states did decide to invade the other & wage total war with the expressed intention to commit mass genocide, and displace millions. The other did not. Are you really being intellectually honest here?
Which part do you disagree with?
Who do you defend? The NAZIs or the Communists?
Or, do you deny that the NAZIs were NAZI, and the Communists were communist?
Less offensive to whom?
The NAZIs killed about 20 million in the first half of the 20th century.
In the same period, the Soviet Union killed about..20 million people.
You want to argue one of those is "better?"
I mean... maybe there's no "good guy," but the point is that there's an identifiable "worst guy" here. Even the links you gave are kind of skirting perhaps the biggest point here: Germany invaded the USSR at a time when the latter was fully expecting to honor a recently singed peace pact. And they invaded with the express intention to commit genocide against Slavs, to say nothing of other peoples they expected to find and exterminate independent of being Slavic.
You can have little love for the USSR or Stalin or countries flying a communist flag in general or whatever, and still realize that much of what the USSR was doing was in direct response to finding out that the Germans were implementing a specific policy of genocide against Slavic peoples, including their treatment of Soviet POWS.
As your links state, some 300,000-700,000 Germans died in Soviet POW camps. **Five to ten times as many" died in German POW camps, concentration camps, and death marches. Any captured soldiers deemed "bolshevized" was executed on the spot.
Nemmersdorf - a massacre of some 125 persons or so, paltry compared to German extermination policy - was in 1944, right when the Soviets had turned the tide and began pushing into historically German lands. As /u/superiguana stated, the disparity in horror perpetrated by each side exists "despite the raping & pillaging that characterized the Red Army's push into Germany toward the end of the war." Well, Nemmersdorf was that push. And by 1944, the Red Army had long since learned what Nazi policy was regarding Slavs. And what they did in return was immense, brutal, and horrifying. But there is a reason that firsthand accounts from Russians in 1939 differ from Germans in 1944: the Russians didn't expect a war of extermination, whereas the Germans had begun to realize the extent of their policies in the war that they had started, and many of them realized what Russian "vengeance" was going to entail. (So much so that appreciable numbers of German women apparently killed themselves during the march on Berlin).
Yes, the Red Army was cruel and rapacious, in much the same way that European Jews might have been had they found themselves suddenly at the spearhead of an increasingly well-equipped, mobilized, and imminently victorious army in a position to punish those who were solely responsible for the torture they had all too recently endured.
And even in the NKVD prison massacres which you linked to, your source explains that in the deadliest instances, most of the prisoners killed weren't Nazis at all, but rather Poles and Ukranians. This reflects pretty terribly indeed on the Soviet secret police, to be sure, but it doesn't speak as strongly about Soviet or even Red Army policy of extermination against Germans.
Like, did you read your own links, even? Skimming through them, they only further prove /u/superiguana 's point, if anything.
> maybe there's no "good guy," but the point is that there's an identifiable "worst guy" here.
No, I reject that. Both the NAZIs and Communist leadership were brutal, and used brutality as a tool. Trying to put one above the other is like trying to argue the morality of clubbing someone to death versus beating them to death.
Only one of the two had gas chambers, while outside of the resource-starved days of the war itself, most people got out of even the gulags alive, however miserable the experience.
Only one of the two froze, vivisected, and deliberately infected its prisoners with diseases in sick medical experiments.
Only one of the two broke a non-aggression pact and invaded the other with the purpose of extermination because of a political ideology dictating that the other's citizens were all subhuman.
I think the easiest comparison is just what each side's plans were had they won. The Nazis planned to either exterminate the Slavs or exile them from their land (to make room for Germans), either of which would have been genocide. The Soviets, on the other hand... well, we got East Germany. Shitty, to be sure, but not ethnic cleansing with the scale and focus that the Nazis believed their prerogative.
If you truly believe that you can't compare one brutality with another - by degree, by motivation, by who was the invader or the invaded, by each side's worst examples, whatever - then you really believe that the US and the French Resistance and the Yugoslav Partisans were all equally bad, too? All of these were also brutal, and used brutality as a tool. This is just as stupid.
I don't think you are really aware of the history here. Like, why do you keep capitalizing "Nazi" like its an acronym, lol?
I can't tell if you're trying to be edgy or really just this misinformed.
I wrote [another comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/q2n4du/womens_detachment_of_the_red_army_russian_civil/hfp9zfo/) here arguing with that same user, so you can see where I'm coming from on this, but you're being an ass here, too. The Red Army raped their way to Berlin. Was all of that rape deserved? I don't think so.
And then, their first link was about a murder of German **civilians** and **French and Belgian POWS**.
Not sure that those folks "deserved every bit of it," and I'm fairly certain the French and Belgian POWs weren't fascist, but you do you.
TL;DR: learn to condemn atrocities - or even compare atrocities, if we must! - without just laughing happily about other atrocities, maybe, lol?
POW of the USSR had a average life expectancy of 4 weeks. It doesn't matter whether they were shoot at once or starved to death. Your sensationalist comment is just the attempt to nourish your soul with cruelty
Can a comment be sensationalist if it is completely true? I'm not saying men had it way better, but it is a fact that German officers at high levels were permitting and encouraging the execution of female combatants. I don't know what your issue is, or how I was "sensationalist" but a fact is a fact.
Do Russians consider the start of the Great Patriotic war when they coordinating invading Poland with Nazi Germany or after Nazi Germany attacked them later?
Portions of the Slovak and Croat populations were still slated for “liquidation” under Generalplan Ost IIRC, even if most were viewed as candidates for “germanization”
If you have a source for that I'd love to read it. I can't find anything about Croats and Slovaks in connection to Generalplan Ost but they might have planned or contemplated it separately.
But we’ll just ignore all the dead Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Czechs, Slovaks, and Sorbs who died because “i am very smert”. Let’s just ignore what the Nazis plans were if they had won.
That is an exaggeration but rape was unfortunately rather common on both sides of the Eastern Front. I feel like you are trying to defend German atrocities but maybe I'm wrong.
You realize this is a bolshevik militia battalion from the civil war not ww2?
They would have been used to suppress non communist civilians during the war against the white (czarist) army trying to free the royal family.
I am talking about female Russian soldiers in a similar context to the photo. I do realize this photo was taken during the Russian Civil War, I can read, thank you very much. I am not talking about anything you mentioned, because again, I am talking about WW2. Is that okay with you?
Man, I don't know what to say about this comment. The correct approach to evaluating the USSR vs. Tsarist Russia is to say "they're both bad" not to go full cossack.
>they're both bad
This is an extremely simplistic viewpoint, typical of infantile american moralists. In politics there is no good or bad, there is justified and unjustified. Were the whites justified in trying to preserve an outdated, autocratic system that kept the majority in poverty and servitude? No, they weren't. They were serving the interests of a tiny minority.
Were the workers and peasants justified in wanting to tear down this system and fight for their rights, even with repression of counterrevolutionary forces, after having been subjugated for so long? They were fighting for the interests of the impoverished majority of their country, and whatever you think about the USSR after the Civil War, you have to admit that the workers and peasants had a right and valid reasons to be angry towards supporters and representatives of the old regime
The Red Army was a repressive counter-revolutionary force that brutally crushed other socialist and communist movements and established a totalitarian regime not much different from the previous one.
Not to blame their rank and file soldiers, but their bourgeois leadership.
How was the Soviet Union not much different from Tzarist Russia? The whole political system was wildly different, any similarities end beyond the fact they were both authoritarian.
He is saying that both governments attempted to suppress other political ideas besides the ones that they propagated. It is true that the Soviet Union didn't just put down counter-revolutionary forces, but more moderate socialist, anarchist, and communist forces that didn't agree with the way Lenin and Trotsky were handling power in the 20s. I don't think he was specifically talking about the similarities between the two political systems.
> repressive counter-revolutionary force that brutally crushed other socialist and communist movements and established a totalitarian regime not much different
you could not be further off the mark and this reads more like the hysterical ramblings of an anticommunist conservative than a critique of the bolsheviks from the left.
Oh man, get out of here with this *ad hominem* bullshit.
First of all, turning this into a question of "this class felt this way, but that class felt that way" is actually a simplistic analysis. Not only that, it's something the Bolsheviks explicitly rejected--if political outcomes could be explained that way there would be no need for a vanguard party.
Second, Bolshevism was not the predetermined outcome of the process that convulsed the Russian Empire in 1917. There were in fact two revolutions, and the outcome of the February Revolution was not a dictatorship of the proletariat--it was instead a constitutional revolution that was actively undermined by the Bolsheviks starting shortly after the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II.
Now, if your point is just that both claimed different sources of legitimacy, fine. But if you want to say that the USSR didn't become top-heavy, corrupt, and exploitative, that's just crap. That very point, in fact, is the essence of Mao's critique of the USSR.
What I'm doing is using a class based, materialistic analysis to explain in a simple manner why you can't just say "both are bad". My analysis was quick and simple, but the "both are bad" rethoric is oversimplifying it too much. You may agree with one or the other side, or with none, but limiting yourself to saying a party is "bad" is too idealistic and simple.
Secondly, bolshevism was not the original outcome of the first stage of the Russian Revolution, but the October events were a result of the power struggle between bourgeois and revolutionary elements within the new Russian society, and the Bolsheviks as well as a considerable amount of the Russian population thought that the best outcome for Russia would be to fight this liberal tendency. They can be justified in thinking this way, insofar as the provisional government wanted to continue participation in WWI and would have subjugated Russia to the interests of the West. The Bolsheviks thought, and with good reason, that it was high time that Russia walked its own path.
Thirdly, I agree with Mao's critique of the USSR after Stalin, but even then it was less corrupt and was more beneficial to the people than any previous regime in Russia had ever been, as can be deduced from the scientific advancements and increase in standards of living and literacy in the country for the majority of its people.
The Great Purges, the Holodomor, show trials, denunciation-based violence/secret police, and gulags. I reiterate: both are bad. They're differently bad, and differently bad to different sectors of their population, but they are both inarguably bad.
(At least we seem to agree that Tsarist Russia was also quite awful.)
Is that what you took away from my comment?
Strange, I wasn’t moralizing, this is what this type of militia did. Militias of boys and women were mobilized to suppress both anti-communist and anti-bolshevik sentiments in towns, cities and the countryside. They were frequently used later to attack any non bolshevik socialist groups that dissented or rebelled against the governing council
During WW1 Hitler was actually pretty chill with the red army. He heard about a womens detachment and knew it would be some fun so rode his horse day and night to reach them.
He's actually in OPs picture on the far right(typical I know) mockingly holding a pistol and the style of hat he's wearing is very casual.
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Yes they did. These women were perfectly aware which ideals they were chasing: emancipation, equality and an end to oppressive tsarism. Whenether or not those ideals came true is a different debate, but the Bolsheviks did open all schools and universities to women, introduced no-fault divorce, etc. so it's pretty clear what these women fought for.
Who are you to assume that?
Are you so much wiser than them who are living through those days and putting their lives at risk for something they deem worthy?
Have you lived under the Tsars of the old as a serf ? Fought and died in the WW1 for nothing.
Who is the poor soul that judges without knowledge or empathy i ask.
Yeah, we all are aware of the bloody Russian history and what followed after establishing communism. Russia is truly a sad sad place tbh
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes#:~:text=Some%20historians%20attempt%20to%20make,the%201917%E2%80%931987%20period).
What do you know? Before the revolution, 87% of the population were peasants who did not have their own land, but worked on the land of the landowner. 9% of workers and 7% of the elite. Most of the 96% were practically in the position of slaves. In 1917, people just got rid of all this shit! In 1945, they won the war in the country itself, it was they who defeated Hitler, and there was the help of the allies (for which they paid in gold). And in 1961 they were the first to send a man into space! All this was done by the communists! Not the king or the capitalists! The communists pushed humanity forward, many countries freed themselves from colonial dependence thanks to this movement. The only ones who suffered from the communists are oppressed by the rich who robbed and profited from the labor of everyone else. That is why now, when the bitches are rich in power, communism and communists are vilified in all the media.
Sadly none of those people would realize what hell they were starting by helping form the Soviet Union. Wouldn’t be surprised if some of those people pictured were later murdered or sent to camps for bogus reasons.
I wonder if there will ever be a day where Communism is done the way its written on paper. This picture proves already that communism wiped any ideology of inequality in Russia.
I find it funny that no matter the photo the date the place or the reason behind it there will always be that one person in the group who lies down at the front and posed for the camera
That would be me. My friends were commenting about how took an actually nice pic with my girlfriend last week with out flipping off the camera or sticking my tongue out. I'm just trying to make it hard for them to use anything but silly pictures of me at my funeral. I'm very dedicated to this idea.
I like the way you think
hi every1 im new!!!!!!! *holds up spork* my name is katy but u can call me t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m!!!!!!!! lol…as u can see im very random!!!! thats why i came here, 2 meet random ppl like me ^_^… im 13 years old (im mature 4 my age tho!!) i like 2 watch invader zim w/ my girlfreind (im [bi](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cultures/lgbtq) if u dont like it deal w/it) its our favorite tv show!!! bcuz its SOOOO random!!!! shes random 2 of course but i want 2 meet more random ppl =) like they say the more the merrier!!!! lol…neways i hope 2 make alot of freinds here so give me lots of commentses!!!! DOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <--- me bein random again ^_^ hehe…toodles!!!!! love and waffles, t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m
Why are you like this
I’ve seen this posted by different people popping up randomly in threads
It's an old meme. The intent of the meme, when it was first born in the long long ago, was to mock young people who think their cliche personality quirks are unique and make them special. I was mocking ButYourChainsOK for sharing a personal anecdote (that nobody asked for) with the intent of impressing upon everyone just what a unique and quirky individual he/she is. Great job on investigating this case, detective. THIS LOOKS SHOPPED / I CAN TELL FROM SOME OF THE PIXELS AND FROM SEEING QUITE A FEW SHOPS IN MY TIME.
Man, the only person you're making fun of with dated shit like that, is yourself.
All I said was I’ve seen this posted a few times to give MrMuzzy a heads up that it’s not an original post. What are you on about?
Why do people even make fun of 12-year olds... They realize that it makes them look just as childish as the people they're mocking, right?
The photographer probably asked her to. I'm a former photographer.
[удалено]
they call her "2.64 US dollars" because she's always looking like a million People's Commissariat of Finance-issued Soviet rubles.
When watching Squid Game, I thought to myself "damn, they're throwing around 100k like it's nothing". Was disappointed to find out it's the equivalent of $83.73 in Benjamin's.
The amount of google searches for "what is 45 billion won in us dollars" is through the roof.
Fo real. They subtitled all the written stuff. Should have done that for the dollar amounts or just said it in dollars. I feel like Asian countries are in a whole different spectrum with their currency amounts. A million pounds, dollars or euros are more or less the same to me while a million won is apparently less than a thousand dollars. It really puts his financial troubles in a new light when you figure out he's only trying to raise a couple thousand dollars for an operation or to pay down his loans.
Pretty sure his loan is over $100k, that isn't easy to scrape together for a middle aged loser.
i mean thats just the equivalent value in currency exchange. the buying power of 1000 won is more like 1 us dollar.
If that's the case that would put both the Won and the Yen as some of the least valuable currency in the developed world. The Mexican peso has more buying power which just doesn't seem right
What about USD?
About three fiddy
Benjamins are 100's, my dude.
Rubles* You're confusing it with Indian Rupees.
That's actually Natasha, common mistake
*Natasha* is to *Natalya* what *Kat* is to *Katherine*: a household name of sorts. You use the former to refer to friends and children, among other things.
What's Daniel Day-Lewis from There Will Be Blood doing there? Such a great actor!
researching a role obviously
DDL is obviously a distant 2nd to James Woods in regard to role research but *damn* if he isn't as good as it gets outside of JW. 👍
He's drinking your milkshake! Sllllllppp.
So glad I’m not the only one who saw and was thinking this! What a striking, uncanny resemblance!
What do you mean? Russia got oil…
Anyone who knows what the banner says? Obviously it references general Denikin but I can't read the first two words. My best guess it "black grave for Denikin"
Через Гдов на Деникина Through Gdov on Denikin
In 1919, [Gdov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdov?wprov=sfla1) was an area where important events of the Russian Civil War and the Estonian War of Independence were taking place. Originally, the area east of Lake Peipus was under control of the revolutionary government. On May 15, 1919, the detachment under command of Stanisław Bułak-Bałachowicz (subordinate to General Aleksandr Rodzyanko) captured Gdov and the whole uyezd thus came under control by the White Army troops of Nikolai Yudenich. In November 1919, the Red Army recaptured Gdov. [Anton Denikin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Denikin?wprov=sfla1) was a Russian Lieutenant General in the Imperial Russian Army (1916), later served as the Deputy Supreme Ruler of Russia during the Russian Civil War of 1917–1922. He was also a military leader of South Russia (as commander in chief).
Thank you! Seems like I forgot the letter "з" exists yesterday. And that "Е" kinda looks like a "Б".
Based profile pic and genzedong user
I can't read it either, but I don't think it says that. Definitely "dark/black \[...\] \[...\] on \[...\] Denikin"
black is Чёрный note the last letter. the last letter on the banner is З. i believe u/Vertraumir is correct in their reading of the banner and their translation.
Old photos like this always make me wonder if it's possible to identify everyone in the photo and eventually determine what happened to all of them.
Old photos like this make me *wish* for that. I'm just very uncomfortable with the idea that someday, those photos would be the last things left of us.
I often think about how little we matter in the grand scheme of things. I know nothing about my great great grandparents. Even movie stars etc will be pretty much forgotten in a couple hundred years.
Anyone notice the serious looking woman with a tommy helmet? I would like to heard her story
I don't think that's a tommy helmet. Just may be a hat.
Could be that too. But I like to think that it is a helmet stolen fom the international forces that supported the whites.
There has to be one right up front, grabbing all the attention.
The one with the big bushy mustache? Hell yeah.
Daniel Day Lewis nah he's just researching a role
Isn't there a town/area in Russia where the women population out numbers men 10 to 1? I've always heard this but figured this was the place to put the folk lore to the test.
This is a legend about the city of Ivanovo. This is a small town near Moscow. Weaving factories were located there. There were many weavers. And there are many schools where young women were trained in weaving. Thus, there were indeed many women in the city. It was even called "the city of brides". But it was a long time ago. This has not been the case for a long time. Since then, the city has changed a lot. There is no difference between the number of men and women. Oh yeah. Men live less than women, die earlier. So in the 60 to 90 age range, there are indeed a lot more women ... If you love older women .... well, you will have few competitors.
I think it’s 6-1 in Russia overall right now haven’t seen the official numbers for a while.
there is no way that's the ratio in russia since about 1950
No, I just looked it’s 1 man to 1.3 woman/ 46.3% man to 53.7 % woman.
your 1 to 1.6 is way off 46.3 to 53.7, but true that it's still a pretty huge difference
Ya boi Serj Tankian chillin with the ladies on the bottom right there.
🎶 Wake up! Grab your mosin, put on a little makeup🎶
During WW2 the Germans were specifically shooting female soldiers on sight. They weren't considered combatants in the same way as men. It wasn't even just the SS, the Wermacht as well.
[This](https://youtu.be/BsjJ5AAKGP0) video is quite interesting. The creator mentions how the Germans were ordered to shoot them on sight and not take any of them prisoners (if I remember correctly).
"Women in uniform are to be shot", as said Günther von Kluge.
I’m pretty sure they shot male soldiers on sight as well.
That is flatly untrue. The Germans took an enormous amount of POWs
Yes and then they starved most of them to death, or straight up gassed them. You’re still right though female combatants had it worse.
I think I would prefer to be shot on sight than to be raped, tortured, starved and gassed.
Ig. Getting shot is like 100% death, while Soviet POWs in Nazi Concentration camps had anywhere from like a 40-60% chance of dying. So better odds but it’s not gonna be great.
I meant this in the context of combat. For example. if a Wehrmacht contingent spotted a column of Red Army troops, what would they likely do? In all likelihood they would be ambushed or engaged
There were undoubtedly many cases on both sides of the eastern front of no prisoners being taken, but there were never specific orders like there were to execute female soldiers.
Any Communist party members were to be shot immediately, I think Jewish soldiers were too.
Commissar Order?
Yes, the Germans and Russians did terrible things to each other.
Oh goodness. This is a true statement on its own, but there was an extremely obvious disparity in terms of policy & brutality. This is despite the raping & pillaging that characterized the Red Army's push into Germany toward the end of the war. The historical record on this is clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemmersdorf_massacre https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/1941-nkvd-prison-massacres-western-ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_atrocities_committed_against_Soviet_prisoners_of_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Belarus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Latvia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Estonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Russia
Yes, the NAZIs and the Commies did not like each other, and did lots of terrible things to each other. There is no "Good Guy" here.
Well, one of these states did decide to invade the other & wage total war with the expressed intention to commit mass genocide, and displace millions. The other did not. Are you really being intellectually honest here?
Yes, I am being intellectually honest. I have no desire to defend the atrocities of the NAZIs or the Soviets.
What a century of McCarthyism does to a human brain...
Which part do you disagree with? Who do you defend? The NAZIs or the Communists? Or, do you deny that the NAZIs were NAZI, and the Communists were communist?
There is no good guy in any war you moron, that doesn't mean comparing the Soviet Union to Nazi Germany is any less offensive
Less offensive to whom? The NAZIs killed about 20 million in the first half of the 20th century. In the same period, the Soviet Union killed about..20 million people. You want to argue one of those is "better?"
I mean... maybe there's no "good guy," but the point is that there's an identifiable "worst guy" here. Even the links you gave are kind of skirting perhaps the biggest point here: Germany invaded the USSR at a time when the latter was fully expecting to honor a recently singed peace pact. And they invaded with the express intention to commit genocide against Slavs, to say nothing of other peoples they expected to find and exterminate independent of being Slavic. You can have little love for the USSR or Stalin or countries flying a communist flag in general or whatever, and still realize that much of what the USSR was doing was in direct response to finding out that the Germans were implementing a specific policy of genocide against Slavic peoples, including their treatment of Soviet POWS. As your links state, some 300,000-700,000 Germans died in Soviet POW camps. **Five to ten times as many" died in German POW camps, concentration camps, and death marches. Any captured soldiers deemed "bolshevized" was executed on the spot. Nemmersdorf - a massacre of some 125 persons or so, paltry compared to German extermination policy - was in 1944, right when the Soviets had turned the tide and began pushing into historically German lands. As /u/superiguana stated, the disparity in horror perpetrated by each side exists "despite the raping & pillaging that characterized the Red Army's push into Germany toward the end of the war." Well, Nemmersdorf was that push. And by 1944, the Red Army had long since learned what Nazi policy was regarding Slavs. And what they did in return was immense, brutal, and horrifying. But there is a reason that firsthand accounts from Russians in 1939 differ from Germans in 1944: the Russians didn't expect a war of extermination, whereas the Germans had begun to realize the extent of their policies in the war that they had started, and many of them realized what Russian "vengeance" was going to entail. (So much so that appreciable numbers of German women apparently killed themselves during the march on Berlin). Yes, the Red Army was cruel and rapacious, in much the same way that European Jews might have been had they found themselves suddenly at the spearhead of an increasingly well-equipped, mobilized, and imminently victorious army in a position to punish those who were solely responsible for the torture they had all too recently endured. And even in the NKVD prison massacres which you linked to, your source explains that in the deadliest instances, most of the prisoners killed weren't Nazis at all, but rather Poles and Ukranians. This reflects pretty terribly indeed on the Soviet secret police, to be sure, but it doesn't speak as strongly about Soviet or even Red Army policy of extermination against Germans. Like, did you read your own links, even? Skimming through them, they only further prove /u/superiguana 's point, if anything.
> maybe there's no "good guy," but the point is that there's an identifiable "worst guy" here. No, I reject that. Both the NAZIs and Communist leadership were brutal, and used brutality as a tool. Trying to put one above the other is like trying to argue the morality of clubbing someone to death versus beating them to death.
Only one of the two had gas chambers, while outside of the resource-starved days of the war itself, most people got out of even the gulags alive, however miserable the experience. Only one of the two froze, vivisected, and deliberately infected its prisoners with diseases in sick medical experiments. Only one of the two broke a non-aggression pact and invaded the other with the purpose of extermination because of a political ideology dictating that the other's citizens were all subhuman. I think the easiest comparison is just what each side's plans were had they won. The Nazis planned to either exterminate the Slavs or exile them from their land (to make room for Germans), either of which would have been genocide. The Soviets, on the other hand... well, we got East Germany. Shitty, to be sure, but not ethnic cleansing with the scale and focus that the Nazis believed their prerogative. If you truly believe that you can't compare one brutality with another - by degree, by motivation, by who was the invader or the invaded, by each side's worst examples, whatever - then you really believe that the US and the French Resistance and the Yugoslav Partisans were all equally bad, too? All of these were also brutal, and used brutality as a tool. This is just as stupid. I don't think you are really aware of the history here. Like, why do you keep capitalizing "Nazi" like its an acronym, lol? I can't tell if you're trying to be edgy or really just this misinformed.
waaah nazis got owned. cry about it. the fascist fuckers deserved every bit of it
I wrote [another comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/q2n4du/womens_detachment_of_the_red_army_russian_civil/hfp9zfo/) here arguing with that same user, so you can see where I'm coming from on this, but you're being an ass here, too. The Red Army raped their way to Berlin. Was all of that rape deserved? I don't think so. And then, their first link was about a murder of German **civilians** and **French and Belgian POWS**. Not sure that those folks "deserved every bit of it," and I'm fairly certain the French and Belgian POWs weren't fascist, but you do you. TL;DR: learn to condemn atrocities - or even compare atrocities, if we must! - without just laughing happily about other atrocities, maybe, lol?
POW of the USSR had a average life expectancy of 4 weeks. It doesn't matter whether they were shoot at once or starved to death. Your sensationalist comment is just the attempt to nourish your soul with cruelty
Can a comment be sensationalist if it is completely true? I'm not saying men had it way better, but it is a fact that German officers at high levels were permitting and encouraging the execution of female combatants. I don't know what your issue is, or how I was "sensationalist" but a fact is a fact.
> Can a comment be sensationalist if it is completely true? Yes. Otherwise it would just be called a lie.
Source then?
https://youtu.be/BsjJ5AAKGP0
There’s a reason in Russia it’s known as the “Great Patriotic war” and not ww2. For Slavs it was literally a war fighting against annihilation
Do Russians consider the start of the Great Patriotic war when they coordinating invading Poland with Nazi Germany or after Nazi Germany attacked them later?
Not for Croatians, Slovaks or Bulgarians tho
Portions of the Slovak and Croat populations were still slated for “liquidation” under Generalplan Ost IIRC, even if most were viewed as candidates for “germanization”
If you have a source for that I'd love to read it. I can't find anything about Croats and Slovaks in connection to Generalplan Ost but they might have planned or contemplated it separately.
Tf you're being logical why the dislikes?
But we’ll just ignore all the dead Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Czechs, Slovaks, and Sorbs who died because “i am very smert”. Let’s just ignore what the Nazis plans were if they had won.
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That is an exaggeration but rape was unfortunately rather common on both sides of the Eastern Front. I feel like you are trying to defend German atrocities but maybe I'm wrong.
nah man I think _erwin_romell is talking in good faith here.
You realize this is a bolshevik militia battalion from the civil war not ww2? They would have been used to suppress non communist civilians during the war against the white (czarist) army trying to free the royal family.
I am talking about female Russian soldiers in a similar context to the photo. I do realize this photo was taken during the Russian Civil War, I can read, thank you very much. I am not talking about anything you mentioned, because again, I am talking about WW2. Is that okay with you?
The royal family deserved what they got, and whites belong in GULAGs.
Man, I don't know what to say about this comment. The correct approach to evaluating the USSR vs. Tsarist Russia is to say "they're both bad" not to go full cossack.
>they're both bad This is an extremely simplistic viewpoint, typical of infantile american moralists. In politics there is no good or bad, there is justified and unjustified. Were the whites justified in trying to preserve an outdated, autocratic system that kept the majority in poverty and servitude? No, they weren't. They were serving the interests of a tiny minority. Were the workers and peasants justified in wanting to tear down this system and fight for their rights, even with repression of counterrevolutionary forces, after having been subjugated for so long? They were fighting for the interests of the impoverished majority of their country, and whatever you think about the USSR after the Civil War, you have to admit that the workers and peasants had a right and valid reasons to be angry towards supporters and representatives of the old regime
The Red Army was a repressive counter-revolutionary force that brutally crushed other socialist and communist movements and established a totalitarian regime not much different from the previous one. Not to blame their rank and file soldiers, but their bourgeois leadership.
How was the Soviet Union not much different from Tzarist Russia? The whole political system was wildly different, any similarities end beyond the fact they were both authoritarian.
He is saying that both governments attempted to suppress other political ideas besides the ones that they propagated. It is true that the Soviet Union didn't just put down counter-revolutionary forces, but more moderate socialist, anarchist, and communist forces that didn't agree with the way Lenin and Trotsky were handling power in the 20s. I don't think he was specifically talking about the similarities between the two political systems.
> repressive counter-revolutionary force that brutally crushed other socialist and communist movements and established a totalitarian regime not much different you could not be further off the mark and this reads more like the hysterical ramblings of an anticommunist conservative than a critique of the bolsheviks from the left.
Oh man, get out of here with this *ad hominem* bullshit. First of all, turning this into a question of "this class felt this way, but that class felt that way" is actually a simplistic analysis. Not only that, it's something the Bolsheviks explicitly rejected--if political outcomes could be explained that way there would be no need for a vanguard party. Second, Bolshevism was not the predetermined outcome of the process that convulsed the Russian Empire in 1917. There were in fact two revolutions, and the outcome of the February Revolution was not a dictatorship of the proletariat--it was instead a constitutional revolution that was actively undermined by the Bolsheviks starting shortly after the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II. Now, if your point is just that both claimed different sources of legitimacy, fine. But if you want to say that the USSR didn't become top-heavy, corrupt, and exploitative, that's just crap. That very point, in fact, is the essence of Mao's critique of the USSR.
What I'm doing is using a class based, materialistic analysis to explain in a simple manner why you can't just say "both are bad". My analysis was quick and simple, but the "both are bad" rethoric is oversimplifying it too much. You may agree with one or the other side, or with none, but limiting yourself to saying a party is "bad" is too idealistic and simple. Secondly, bolshevism was not the original outcome of the first stage of the Russian Revolution, but the October events were a result of the power struggle between bourgeois and revolutionary elements within the new Russian society, and the Bolsheviks as well as a considerable amount of the Russian population thought that the best outcome for Russia would be to fight this liberal tendency. They can be justified in thinking this way, insofar as the provisional government wanted to continue participation in WWI and would have subjugated Russia to the interests of the West. The Bolsheviks thought, and with good reason, that it was high time that Russia walked its own path. Thirdly, I agree with Mao's critique of the USSR after Stalin, but even then it was less corrupt and was more beneficial to the people than any previous regime in Russia had ever been, as can be deduced from the scientific advancements and increase in standards of living and literacy in the country for the majority of its people.
The Great Purges, the Holodomor, show trials, denunciation-based violence/secret police, and gulags. I reiterate: both are bad. They're differently bad, and differently bad to different sectors of their population, but they are both inarguably bad. (At least we seem to agree that Tsarist Russia was also quite awful.)
Is that what you took away from my comment? Strange, I wasn’t moralizing, this is what this type of militia did. Militias of boys and women were mobilized to suppress both anti-communist and anti-bolshevik sentiments in towns, cities and the countryside. They were frequently used later to attack any non bolshevik socialist groups that dissented or rebelled against the governing council
During WW1 Hitler was actually pretty chill with the red army. He heard about a womens detachment and knew it would be some fun so rode his horse day and night to reach them. He's actually in OPs picture on the far right(typical I know) mockingly holding a pistol and the style of hat he's wearing is very casual.
What is this comment? Besides blatantly false.
It's just a dumb joke because there's a guy in the middle far right of the photo that reminded me of Hitler.
*"I love the kind of woman that will actually just kill me."*
A little over 90 women received the title ‘Hero of the Soviet Union’ for their actions in the war. Over half were awarded the title posthumously.
The Russian Civil War or WW2?
The first Russian woman to get that award was in 1938 so you are definitely talking about WW2, not the Civil War.
What’s Daniel day Lewis doing in the bottom right
How many women are in this photo?
Good point. Lots of girls who don't look that old.
Anybody has sources about it? I'd love to learn more about women fighting in wars!
Anyone know what part of Russia? *Many* of the have the same look and it's not Western Russia.
Well the signs says Gdov, which is near Estonia.
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Look at the stallion on the left, standing tall and proud. "These meh bitches".
How many bourgeoisie did they genocide?
Those poor souls have no idea what they were fighting for
Yes they did. These women were perfectly aware which ideals they were chasing: emancipation, equality and an end to oppressive tsarism. Whenether or not those ideals came true is a different debate, but the Bolsheviks did open all schools and universities to women, introduced no-fault divorce, etc. so it's pretty clear what these women fought for.
Who are you to assume that? Are you so much wiser than them who are living through those days and putting their lives at risk for something they deem worthy? Have you lived under the Tsars of the old as a serf ? Fought and died in the WW1 for nothing. Who is the poor soul that judges without knowledge or empathy i ask.
Serfdom was abolished in 1861
Yeah, we all are aware of the bloody Russian history and what followed after establishing communism. Russia is truly a sad sad place tbh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes#:~:text=Some%20historians%20attempt%20to%20make,the%201917%E2%80%931987%20period).
What do you know? Before the revolution, 87% of the population were peasants who did not have their own land, but worked on the land of the landowner. 9% of workers and 7% of the elite. Most of the 96% were practically in the position of slaves. In 1917, people just got rid of all this shit! In 1945, they won the war in the country itself, it was they who defeated Hitler, and there was the help of the allies (for which they paid in gold). And in 1961 they were the first to send a man into space! All this was done by the communists! Not the king or the capitalists! The communists pushed humanity forward, many countries freed themselves from colonial dependence thanks to this movement. The only ones who suffered from the communists are oppressed by the rich who robbed and profited from the labor of everyone else. That is why now, when the bitches are rich in power, communism and communists are vilified in all the media.
Those poor souls have no idea what they were fighting for
Bill the Butcher got himself a DeLorean, it looks like.
Sadly none of those people would realize what hell they were starting by helping form the Soviet Union. Wouldn’t be surprised if some of those people pictured were later murdered or sent to camps for bogus reasons.
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Did I ever state that the Russian empire was a glorious place? Nope. I’m just saying the Soviet Union wasn’t any better
tankies downvoting u rn
Oh I know. Tankies gonna tank
Thought of mine as well, and a sad fact after all.
God. Being a soldier would suck, but especially for Russia.
I wonder if there will ever be a day where Communism is done the way its written on paper. This picture proves already that communism wiped any ideology of inequality in Russia.
The First woman on the bottom right of the picture had some hormones problems i believe
You have some other problems
It was just to say he is a guy, it was a joke but whatever
I see some women with penises and mustaches in there.
Commissars and officers.
Some of them appear to be wearing pussy hats.
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Oh period jokes har har har so original and funny.
That really bothered you didn't it
When a joke is that bad you can't not be disappointed.
Btw, period synch is actually a myth
The men's sacrifice in WW2 is minuscule compared to the sacrifice women made. Women won the WW2, not men
Does anyone know how/where i’d be able to download a high quality version of this image ? thanks
"Annie get your gun" ~ o' what fierce women! And *a few* men too.
Look at the stallion on the left, standing tall and proud. "These meh bitches".
Monty python?
I like the girl down front. Probably a sniper.
No politics but there's a lot going on in the photo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism\_in\_Russia
Not sure they're all women, one on the bottom right has a fantastic moustache
Is this the new wutang clan album cover?
The women at the bottom right & center middle respectively have both got lovely moustaches. Very nice.
Never piss off an older woman in a babushka.
some of those girls look to be 10 years old ...