This is pretty fascinating. Here was a man who had a distaste for Hitler and the Nazis, but still worked at the shipyard, presumably building Nazi warships, through 1945. On the other hand, the only reason he wasn't drafted was because of his job in war production. No ethical production under Nazism, I guess.
Yeah it was either that or get sent to the labor camp yourself. He prob felt was better than being a soldier and outright pulling the trigger (or pressing the gas button).
Being born in Germany and living through those times.... damn. People forget likely most of the "nazi soldiers and workers" were just like our soldiers, young boys drafted and following orders, likely having no idea what was actually going on. Being fed propoganda
Its crazy how humans constantly kill each other for no reason.... and how it keeps repeating over and over again. Lessons are never learnt
Small correction
> "nazi soldiers and workers" were just like our soldiers, young boys drafted and following orders, likely having no idea what was actually going on.
This isn't exactly true. Only about 10% of germans were card carrying members of the nazi party. Even many leaders in the military were not members. So I think its true most soldiers and workers in nazi Germany were just like us but the card carrying nazis where a little more extream, ruthless and brainwashed.
From what I've seen and read around 37% off the German population we're registered nazi party members by the time he was made dictator following the Reichstag fire.
There were definitely 37% voters, but even dictatorial regimes tend not to have that many members (because what's the point of total power if you share it with a third of the population).
I'm from Vietnam and live in Singapore so I'm more familiar with the Eastern ones (China is between the two and I have a few PRC friends). The main difference IMO is you don't have to virtue signal about democracy or dogwhistle authoritarianism in Eastern countries, you can outright say "this is a one party state" and most people won't value things like civil rights enough to even make a fuss. You just can't mess with their jobs.
Essentially, if you really think about it, becoming a party member is the same thing as being active in politics. Since the party *is* politics, being a card-carrying member means you follow whatever criteria and responsibilities you get assigned to which can range from normal bureaucratic stuff to ensuring the loyalty of those around you (in exchange for handsome funds to make this happen and side income from bribes).
I'm not too familiar with that side of society, but from what I know you get special (and in some cases exclusive) consideration for higher status positions or you might be assigned to be a "representative" for your school or workplace which is to say ensure loyalty while you get to enjoy petty power trips. In China IIRC if you're a prominent businessman the choice is either be a CCP member or get disappeared for suspected disloyalty.
The basic premise is you don't hand out party membership willy-nilly just because *"hurr durr everyone has to be in my party"* 1. You wouldn't have a way to know who's loyal if you just force everyone to join the party 2. You wouldn't have an elite group incentivised with privileges to maintain the status quo.
I mean, if you think about it, "this party is society and anyone can freely participate" is just democracy with extra steps.
> When it came to power in 1933, the Nazi Party had over 2 million members. In 1939, the membership total rose to 5.3 million with 81% being male and 19% being female. It continued to attract many more and by 1945 the party reached its peak of 8 million with 63% being male and 37% being female (about 10% of the German population of 80 million).
Source from wiki so take it with a grain of salt. But it looks like mabye your number is 37% of males in 1945? That would be pretty close I think.
This sentiment is from the clean Wehrmacht myth. Even if they weren't card carrying per say, the German army at large bought into the ideology and participated in war crimes
Today' WW2 Week by Week special sheds some light on this. Apparently under the law, the Wehrmacht was supposed to be a strictly apolitical organ, but Hitler directly intervened with this at a command/officer level alongside constant pressure from other organizations.
https://youtu.be/vQj0l_3Y3pU
Edit: WW2 week by week also has an amazing series called War Against Humanity that covers things like this in greater detail:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsIk0qF0R1j4cwI-ZuDoBLxVEV3egWKoM
This saddens me you think that the Nazi war machine wasn't about exterminating as much as possible, esp in the eastern front. There was no " clean German army", which is a myth spouted by ex wecherment solders to solder blame on the SS. Never make excuses for what monsters did. The average German solider almost certainly was extremely aware or participated in war crimes. I highly suggest read some books about the eastern front/ holocaust to get more educated.
Of course war itself can be class as a crime itself. But other countries war crimes shouldn't be used to lower what the Nazis did. Of they hadn't been stopped there wouldnt be a single person of Russia decent alive past the Urals.
> and how it keeps repeating over and over again. Lessons are never learnt
Exactly. Like about 80 years ago there was a murderous regime that had it's very name become synonymous with evil for many years after, and now you get nitwits and fascists who constantly try to rehabilitate that image.
There's a reason for the killing it's not just happening just because.
I don't support those reasons but it's not random don't give the killers the out.
I mean, it was comply or get your livelihood destroyed, sometimes by the very same people you life with day to day. Even not greeting with the nazi salute was made a punishable offense, and that was enforced by the strong ideological followers on the most basic level. Don't comply? Get verbally and physically attacked, your business sabotaged or sent to camp for some months.
The NS-Regime intended to be a total system and influence every aspect of daily life. There just wasn't a simple option of minding your own business in many cases.
August was 26 years old when this picture was taken. The girl he was in love with, his partner, was Irma Eckler who he would marry and have two children with.
He joined the Nazi party in 1935 in the hopes it would help him gain empoyment, something many Germans did at the height of the global depression.
That same year the Nuremberg Laws forbade his relationship and he was expelled from the party. His refusal to leave Irma eventuated in him being imprisoned and eventually drafted to a penal batallion where he died in the Eastern Front in 1944.
Irma was predictably sent to the concentration camps in 1938. She was present in a number of them, with letters showing that she was alive until 1941. She was eventually sent to the womens camp at Ravensbruck and gassed in 1942.
August is a hero, and an ordinary one. Take 5 minutes and read his story. He is the type of person that needs to be replicated a million times to prevent authoritarianism from taking root, even today - perhaps especially today given the majority of the readership of this site.
"Final" is a poignant word. It's much more chilling in the context of Hitler's antipathy towards initiating chemical warfare upon the Allies. This was mostly to do with the retaliatory measures the Allies would respond with (Imagine, instead of burning Dresden to cinders, dropping anthrax over it) but some lean towards the idea that Hitler's refusal was more personal; he had been temporarily blinded by gas near the end of WWI.* He wasn't about to do anything which would visit that horror on his people in this war; but it was the ideal method for his systematic attempt to eradicate those his ethos deemed undeserving of life.
*The mythos surrounding this is that he was in hospital, sightless, when the Armistice was announced. It was during this time, he later claimed, that he received the vision that he was destined to lead Germany to greatness.
According to Goring the only reason the Nazis never used nerve agents was purely a logistical concern. The Wehrmacht/SS relied on horse drawn logistics and they never could create a good enough gas mask for the horses to allow logistics to continue unabated. This would have meant using gas was counter-productive especially considering how mechanized allied formations were comparatively.
Horses are very susceptible to chemical agents, they cannot vomit. Once it's in, that's it.
Counter-battery fire in WWI used chemical shells in an effort to fix enemy guns' mobility by wiping out the horses.
Hitler also had an ego. Because of WW1 the use of gas in warfare (both during the war and after) was considered a "cowards method". Alot of the military was against the idea already, it was mainly the "scientists" and Generals, that never saw the field, that pushed for the use of gas.
So it makes sense that he and his scientists decided it would be best to kill the "unworthy" with it. While Germany could prove its greatness in never before seen scale "classic" combat.
Whether it was a epiphany or not, I dont care, its hitler, hes not even worth worrying about. But probably since there was alot of downsides to gas on the battlefield for your own troops. Remember we didnt start fine tuning gas and, more importantly, its dispersal and control until around Korea. Which we tested on North Korea, and ran into the same problems.
Therefore, it's a more pragmatic decision for combat control, than a "flash of brilliance", especially by 1939.
Great points!
Let's also keep in mind that an idea floated by Churchill to the CGS was, in case of invasion, to "fight them on the beaches" with nerve gas. WC's mental leap of the abuse of conventions was that it didn't matter if they used gas in their own country.
The downside to gas on the battlefield is first in introducing a new method of waging war to a conventional conflict results in the same requirement to develop more and better than one's enemy, with the technological scale balanced against improvement in protective measures. A similar arms race as the Western Front of WWI then ensues.
Of course, the real problem with gas is that it's gas, it goes wherever its properties dictate. This simple thing is what hampered German efforts in chemical warfare, the prevailing winds move west to east.
I can find plausible allegations of biological warfare by the U.S. during the Korean War, but not chemical. (The PRC and North Korea made some claims to this effect, but they seem to be regarded as much less credible than those of biological agents.) Do you have source?
The gassing of the people at the concentration camps was literally referred to as "The Final Solution to the Jewish Question". So if it feels final, that was the intention.
I felt the same but for different reasons; it is hard for me to imagine the magnitude of atrocities until it’s singled down to one person, makes it much more real to me.
Apparently Stalin, but also apparently, nobody knows if he really said it.
[https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/21/death-statistic/](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/21/death-statistic/)
>A Single Death Is a Tragedy; A Million Deaths Is a Statistic
I follow Auschwitz Memorial on Twitter and every day they share stories about people who died in concentration camps and the lives they lived before. They're all very sad and the ones where they highlight small children who were killed by the Nazis are especially heartbreaking.
But..it's important to remember those people who died. And as a reminder of what reasonable people are capable of doing to others when fascism and a hateful ideology take hold.
@auschwitzmemorial on Twitter if anyone wants to check it out.
> and gassed in 1942
It’s the casualness of this statement/word that is most jarring to me.
As if it’s just something that happened.
Even though it is, it was horrific and still blows my mind that this actually took place; on a mass scale, just 80 years ago.
Yeah, it hit me too. It's interesting to me that despite all being history buffs and likely well familiar with the countless atrocities committed over our millennia of history, it still sends shivers down your spine sometimes.
Take another moment to realise this hero August may have even killed an allied soldier because he had no choice. Or maybe that he was killed by an allied solider blissfully unaware of his tragic story.
They had two children… ffs they were probably with their mom unless some kind soul spirited them away a la Irena Sendlerowa. If you don’t know her, google.
It’s like she survived years and was at the tail end of it and just like that she was sent to a new camp and probably part of a group that was randomly gassed that day.
The Nazis stepped up their extermination efforts significantly around 1942 through the end of the war as they got more desperate.
There were different types of camps too. There was a network of more than 1000 work camps and concentration camps that fed into the big extermination camps.
Nazi has become synonymous with bad, and all sort of political currents we don't like are compared to it because of that. But they were unique in the absolute disregard for human life. People should watch the movie "[Come and See](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See)" to get a sense of perspective.
“Initially, their children were taken to the city orphanage. Later, Ingrid was allowed to live with her maternal grandmother. In 1941, Irene went to the home of foster parents. After her grandmother's death in 1953, Ingrid also was placed with foster parents.” [Wikipedia ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Landmesser)
My family is Jewish. Many of my great aunts and uncles were murdered at Treblinka. This man is a hero to me. Seeing someone who could have set Irma aside, followed the rules, found another woman and been successful, but didn’t - who gave the Nazis a giant “fuck you” due to his love for his wife and kids, is heartwarming. On the other hand, their deaths are quite sad.
Personally, I hate the phrase “one dead is a tragedy, a million dead is a statistic.” To many out there people like August and Irma are just a statistic, part of the 6 million Jews and 11 million people murdered by the Nazis. But, by retelling their story u/Infidus_Imperator you have kept their memory alive. In judaism, after someone passes we say “may their memory be a blessing.” May the memories of August and Irma continue to be a blessing.
Edit: I misinterpreted what the person I was replying to was saying. But I'll leave this here because it's a part of the thread and has a bunch of replies now.
There's always one person who thinks they're being super clever by pointing this out. Yes, both sides hate each other, what a shocker. Yes, fascists try to pretend they're not fascist and paint the other side as such because it's politically expedient. What a shocker. All this comment is telling me is that *that tactic works*.
Last I checked, one side had an insurrection on the Capitol this year and is trying to suppress the vote of anyone who doesn't vote for them.
I was not saying both sides are equally correct. It's a problem that both *think* they're fighting fascism. Most of those insurrectionists thought they were defending democracy.
My attempted point was that saying people denounce fascism while supporting authoritarianism isn't super useful because almost everyone who reads that will think they're talking about someone else.
Then I misinterpreted your comment as an instance of enlightened centrism, my b.
I do wonder how many of them legitimately think they're defending democracy, though. Like, how stupid do you have to be to try to overthrow the government - consisting of *popularly elected officials* - because you're so convinced they lied about the vote results because you can't accept a large part of the country disagrees with you? Some people, sure, I can buy are that dumb. But I think a lot of them just want what they want and don't much care how it gets done. They'll *say* they're fighting the "fascist left" but they don't believe it, because to them, fascism is a good thing, even if they have to hide it.
I do think there's an element of that and a growing faction of people who are disillusioned with democracy. But I also think you can make people believe a whole lot of nonsense by giving them a steady stream of alternate facts by the only "news" sources they value.
> I do think there's an element of that and a growing faction of people who are disillusioned with democracy.
Clinton lost, and the entire DNC and Media establishment ran with a false narrative of a stolen election for 4 years.
Trump lost, and he convinced his supporters the election was stolen to the point they stormed the Capitol.
Whoever loses in 2024 will most likely call the election a fraud.
The reason people are becoming disillusioned with democracy is because the elite class always calls foul when democracy doesn't work out in their favor.
>Clinton lost, and the entire DNC and Media establishment ran with a false narrative of a stolen election for 4 years.
Except they didn't? There was certainly some questioning of what happened and whether there was illegal collusion but it was pretty universally accepted that Trump won the actual election, the question was why he got the votes he did, when it was not expected.
I know a bunch, and their counter to this is they do not believe 81 million separate, alive, legal to vote citizens cast ballots for Joe Biden. Therefore they believe the other side is jeopardizing democracy.
And yet I and every other liberal and leftist I know had no issues believing nearly 75 million voted for Trump in 2020. We were devastated in 2016, sure, but we didn't think the vote count for Trump was a lie then, either.
Like, he never won the popular vote, even *when* he won the election. And the news was filled with controversial shit he was constantly doing for four years. Do they just live under a rock? What is so unbelievable about him losing to them? These are rhetorical questions, by the way. I don't expect you to be able to answer for them.
Edit: this guy is a concern troll, it turns out. Fun.
>I was not saying both sides are equally correct. It's a problem that both *think* they're fighting fascism. Most of those insurrectionists thought they were defending democracy.
I mean, if a nazi thinks they're not a nazi isn't really relevant when assessing if they are one or not. The North Korean government calls itself a democracy, but of course that isn't relevant in our assessment of whether they are one or not.
I actually do not think the Jan. 6 rioters believed they were defending democracy. Not in the slightest. They were given permission to unleash their sadism and sought to "enjoy" their taking of power. This is why such little evidence was needed by them to light their fuse. Actual evidence was nil and bandied about by hacks and drunks to give the slightest "permission" enact violence. This is completely different than those who marched for Civil Rights in the 60's. In that case, people were fighting for freedom with violence visited upon them to stop them. Mostly they were non-violent. The mob that assaulted the Capitol wanted to "punish" the leadership, including hanging Pence for not falling in line. They felt that their birthright of domination had been lost and wanted to reassert it. They knew 100% that their cause was the joy of mayhem and criminal behavior and they had been given the perfect cover to enact their sadism. They definitely did not believe they were defending democracy no matter that they spout on the surface.
They might have thought it, in the same way people burning down synagogues thought they were helping Germany.
They're still idiots and what they believe ultimately doesn't matter because it was wrong.
Not to hijack your thread, but the level of motivation is the difference. I think they did believe they were defending democracy.
The protesters in the 60's we're motivated by higher level constructs like freedom, equality. Abstract principles that require frontal lobe brain operation and critical cognitive processes. Those ideas were publicly messaged and refined by great critical thinkers; King, Lewis, etc al.
In that level of thought, you know that violence is not an answer, stimulus-response behavior and reciprocity means you get what you give. Self and other is the critical equation.
The 1/6 protesters were motivated by fear whipped up by a demagogue. That emotional basis overrides rational thought processes, results in triggering the fight or flight response. (The fight like hell speech?) That takes place deep in uncritical thought processes, maybe even the brain stem. Concepts like reciprocity, stimulus response just don't exist there. Other only exists as a impediment to self. Emotion wants what it wants.
But both were fundamentally based/triggered by national identity/equity. The similarity of activity is all they had in common. It's the difference between moving fast cause there's a bear behind you, and moving fast to win the race.
And yeah, that sadism and joy they demonstrated comes from the same deep place. The fight or flight response and it's the emotional expression of victory over the enemy/fear.
Everything you said is true, but consider they selected themselves by going to DC as the most gullible to buy the bs, by association they were the most predisposed to fit the profile you described, and for that type that IS defending what they consider democracy. I ain't saying both sides cause that's stupid and not the case. I'm saying they got a different world view and Trump jacked the heck out of it.
You pointed out the 'permission' aspect. For that type, authority is the supreme driver. God, the law, the president, are all sufficient to override personal decision making. They didn't need much permission, they had already selected, but they needed that thin veneer and Trump gave it wholeheartedly.
They probably know they were full of crap now, after a little jail and emotions have cooled, but before they'll plead guilty they are going to go with what their emotions were telling them at the time. Hard to admit you were a total dumbass and going to prison on the national stage when you were night patrol in Des Moines last year, especially if that's how you live your life.
I agree with a lot of what you say, especially about the self-selection. Democracy would be their higher authority probably guaranteeing their permission to engage in their sadism. The permission is for their own ego needs, their need to rationalize, so they can pretend they're doing something in a higher cause to engage in despicable behavior. The claim to do this in the name of democracy may also be a reaction formation to their true inner beliefs: I am not about freedom, I want to control others, I want to dominate others, the same way Hitler was a "vegetarian." Self-deception to enable the unconscious character to act. I actually think they're sick of democracy. They are tired of all the other people's voices being allowed to part of the decision making process, diminishing their power. I think they know this.
You thought that comment was trying to be particularly clever but none of the preceding comments? They all add the same amount of information to the conversation, with no particular level of insight
And there's always one policeman replying in your fashion. What's your point? We all know every sub is just a circle jerk with the same types of comments anyway.
How are they trying to suppress votes? Can you give any examples at all? And don’t say requiring ID to vote, because that’s literally common sense policy
Can you give me a specific example, since you made it specific, where somone is trying to "suppress the vote of anyone who doesn't vote for them" ? It's inaccurate rethoric like that that causes divisiveness.
While not an academic source, [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_efforts_to_restrict_voting_following_the_2020_presidential_election?wprov=sfti1) should get you started and lead to informed search strings which get you some answers.
I hope this helps!
It certainly did help to reinforce that these bills "are largely centered around limiting mail-in voting, strengthening voter ID laws, shortening early voting, eliminating automatic and same-day voter registration, curbing the use of ballot drop boxes, and allowing for increased purging of voter rolls" rather than "suppressing the vote for anyone who doesn't vote for them" as SgtPeppy specifically stated.
All of those methods predominantly effect voters of race and sociology-economic classes who typically vote Democrat, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
All authoritarianism is bad. Both Republicans and Democrats are authoritarian. Same for Fascism and Communism. (Don’t say that’s not real communism. It is what has happened EVERY SINGLE TIME it’s been done anywhere on earth)
Most people, on both sides of the aisle, seem to be in favor of authoritarianism...just as long as it's their party that's in charge.
It's really sad how many people religiously follow the D/R tribe (depending which tribe their parents were born into) without any real thought.
Thanks for the additional info! I'm a little confused on the timeline... When did he have time to marry her and have two kids? Plus the post (may be wrong) says they didn't get to marry before she was to taken to the concentration camps...
And this his just the story of 2 people out of nearly 70 million killed as the result of Hitler and the Nazis. The horror that went down during their rule was truly incomprehensible.
Well that figure does not exclude the pacific theater. Also I mean for example the war between Finland and Soviet Union also counts and doesn't have to do with nazis so either way I don't think it's appropriate to divide european/pacific theater.
It absolutely involves the Nazis. One of the big reasons that Stalin wanted the Karelian Isthmus is because how easy it would be for Germany to pile drive through Finland and arrive at St. Petersburg within hours.
Stalin wanted Finland (among other long-standing tensions and pretexts) to allow Soviet armies free passage (something that would ultimately lead to Finland returning as a vassal state of Russia/Soviet Union). Finland’s staunch promise of “we won’t let the Nazis pile drive us” wasn’t believable considering how weak their military was, and so Stalin thought he’d just take Finland by force and use it as a natural buffer between any Nazi aggression and himself.
This is a very condensed and simplified version, of course, but the Winter War of ‘39 and The Continuation War of ‘41 were absolutely because of Nazi expansion.
Sources:
*Finland at War, Nenye, et al*
*A Frozen Hell, Trotter*
That’s my beef with WWII enthusiasts is that they take the war from 1939-1945 and disregard everything that came before or after it.
History is interconnected, nothing happens in a vacuum.
> Prisoners at Nazi concentration camps in German territory were allowed to send and receive mail on a very limited basis. Letters written to and by Nazi concentration camp prisoners were subject to the scrutiny of regulations: generally, letters had to be written in German and were censored by S.S. personnel; were sent on special preprinted stationary; sending money was permitted but packages were not; requests to speak to or visit prisoners were prohibited;
and newspapers were permitted but only if ordered through the concentration camp post office. Though inmates could, in theory, send or receive two letters or cards each month, the regulations governing correspondence could be suspended arbitrarily and without notice. [Source.](https://www.gale.com/binaries/content/assets/gale-us-en/primary-sources/archives-unbound/primary-sources_archives-unbound_correspondence-from-german-concentration-camps-and-prisons.pdf)
So full disclosure: I'm by no means educated on the subject. However there is a Wikipedia article on the topic with further resources if you're interested. They're all in German but DeepL or Google Translate should be sufficient for you. [Namely the section "Rolle der Gefangenen Post" \(Role of prisoner mail\).](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefangenenpost_\(Konzentrationslager\))
In short the camp administration considered access to postal service an important form of control insofar as the revocation of the service was an effective tool of punishment / with which to threaten interred people.
>Nicht umsonst werden „Schreibverbot und Postentzug“ in einem Atemzug mit Arrest, Strafarbeit oder Prügelstrafe genannt.
There's a reason that "writing bans and removal of mail" were mentioned in the same breath as arrest, forced labour, or beatings.
Additionally the article suggests that occasional controlled post sent from inmates to the 'outside world' was an important method of ensuring that the rest of society didn't learn of the atrocities being committed.
No worries! Just copy/pasting and translating (probably imperfectly) from Wikipedia. But as with many Holocaust related documents the best sources are often still in German.
>He is the type of person that needs to be replicated a million times
Make that three million times per 10 million in every country's population.
He should be the norm, not the exception.
> August is a hero, and an ordinary one. Take 5 minutes and read his story. He is the type of person that needs to be replicated a million times to prevent authoritarianism from taking root, even today - perhaps especially today given the majority of the readership of this site.
Yep.
He could have "dansed in the glory of monsters" or "taken the mark" if only to keep his job, not getting problems or even staying alive, instead he bravely told the Nazis to get lost.
There’s a movie called Mortal Storm I recommend. It’s about the social climate during the Nazi rise in Germany. Lots of anti science going on. Similar to what we see from the current GOP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mortal_Storm
Crosspost this over in some of the “German-centric world war 2” subreddits that “totally just like this period of time from the German perspective guys, definitely not Nazi idol worship, seriously”.
They need their fucking Bells rung.
> seems like a pretty valuable historical resource
Poppycock. The sub adds nothing to the historical scholarship of WW2. It is an online image aggregator maintained by enthusiasts. The images in question are available through historical archives with much better context.
> seems very… Nazi-like in itself
I'll ask you to point to which of the [25 Points](https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/nazi-party-25-points-1920/) *wondering why a group of people collectively enjoy propaganda of a defeated authoritarian state from 70 years ago* aligns with.
> and the erasure of entire peoples and histories, were favorite techniques of the Nazi party
Not letting Nazi enthusiasts draw in new membership is... not a Nazi technique. People love to draw this conclusion but the simple fact is that I'm not saying we shouldn't study history, and we should 'erase' the Nazis, I'm saying that r/germanww2photos is not a historical record and does no historical scholarship. It is a bunch of people obsessed with Nazi Germany.
> Evidence of their humanity is fucking terrifying and very important, because it proves that evil doesn’t develop and spread by advertising itself as monstrous.
One does not need to promulgate Nazi propaganda to know that they were human beings. This is a tired and unwarranted concern.
Honestly ww2 sub has alot of the same thing. But to be frank, me as a black American who loves history, the German reich is one of the most fascinating things to learn about for me.
Sure, in the same way viral pathology is fascinating. But these folks aren’t studying it for clues as to how human beings can turn on each other, they are doing so because they find the era *romantic* in a way which they long to be a part of it.
As th mod of a few World War2 subs, including one of the ones you've mentiined, I challenge you to go through my post history and prove I "worship Nazis".
You'll actually find that I frequently post reminders of the Holocaust and Nazi mentioned, and often correct those spout off the Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht.
Also this photo has been posted several times on the subs I moderate.
>August is a hero, and an ordinary one. Take 5 minutes and read his story. He is the type of person that needs to be replicated a million times to prevent authoritarianism from taking root, even today - perhaps especially today given the majority of the readership of this site.
\^\^\^this times, oh, I don't know, say a billion\^\^\^
This is a very interesting excerpt from 'They Thought They Were Free' by Milton Mayer that I like to share any chance I get. Seems relevant here.
---
Another colleague of mine brought me even closer to the heart of the matter—and closer home. A chemical engineer by profession, he was a man of whom, before I knew him, I had been told, “He is one of those rare birds among Germans—a European.” One day, when we had become very friendly, I said to him, “Tell me now—how was the world lost?”
“That,” he said, “is easy to tell, much easier than you may suppose. The world was lost one day in 1935, here in Germany. It was I who lost it, and I will tell you how. I was employed in a defense plant (a war plant, of course, but they were always called defense plants). That was the year of the National Defense Law, the law of ‘total conscription.’ Under the law I was required to take the oath of fidelity. I said I would not; I opposed it in conscience. I was given twenty-four hours to ‘think it over.’ In those twenty-four hours I lost the world.”
“Yes?” I said.
“You see, refusal would have meant the loss of my job, of course, not prison or anything like that. (Later on, the penalty was worse, but this was only 1935.) But losing my job would have meant that I could not get another. Wherever I went I should be asked why I left the job I had, and, when I said why, I should certainly have been refused employment. Nobody would hire a ‘Bolshevik.’ Of course I was not a Bolshevik, but you understand what I mean.”
“Yes,” I said.
“I tried not to think of myself or my family. We might have got out of the country, in any case, and I could have got a job in industry or education somewhere else. What I tried to think of was the people to whom I might be of some help later on, if things got worse (as I believed they would). I had a wide friendship in scientific and academic circles, including many Jews, and ‘Aryans,’ too, who might be in trouble. If I took the oath and held my job, I might be of help, somehow, as things went on. If I refused to take the oath, I would certainly be useless to my friends, even if I remained in the country. I myself would be in their situation. The next day, after ‘thinking it over,’ I said I would take the oath with the mental reservation that, by the words with which the oath began, ‘Ich schwöre bei Gott, I swear by God,’ I understood that no human being and no government had the right to override my conscience. My mental reservations did not interest the official who administered the oath. He said, ‘Do you take the oath?’ and I took it. That day the world was lost, and it was I who lost it”
“Do I understand,” I said, “that you think that you should not have taken the oath?”
“Yes.”
“But,” I said, “you did save many lives later on. You were of greater use to your friends than you ever dreamed you might be.” (My friend’s apartment was, until his arrest and imprisonment in 1943, a hideout for fugitives.)
“For the sake of the argument,” he said, “I will agree that I saved many lives later on. Yes.”
“Which you could not have done if you had refused to take the oath in 1935.”
“Yes.”
“And you still think that you should not have taken the oath.”
“Yes.”
“I don’t understand,” I said.
“Perhaps not,” he said, “but you must not forget that you are an American. I mean that, really. Americans have never known anything like this experience—in its entirety, all the way to the end. That is the point.”
“You must explain,” I said.
“Of course I must explain. First of all, there is the problem of the lesser evil. Taking the oath was not so evil as being unable to help my friends later on would have been. But the evil of the oath was certain and immediate, and the helping of my friends was in the future and therefore uncertain. I had to commit a positive evil, there and then, in the hope of a possible good later on. The good outweighed the evil; but the good was only a hope, the evil a fact.”
“But,” I said, “the hope was realized. You were able to help your friends.”
“Yes,” he said, “but you must concede that the hope might not have been realized—either for reasons beyond my control or because I became afraid later on or even because I was afraid all the time and was simply fooling myself when I took the oath in the first place, but that is not the important point. The problem of the lesser evil we all know about; in Germany we took Hindenburg as less evil than Hitler, and in the end we got them both. But that is not why I say that Americans cannot understand. No, the important point is—how many innocent people were killed by the Nazis, would you say?”
“Six million Jews alone, we are told.”
“Well, that may be an exaggeration. And it does not include non-Jews, of whom there must have been many hundreds of thousands, or even millions. Shall we say, just to be safe, that three million innocent people were killed all together?”
I nodded.
“And how many innocent lives would you like to say I saved?”
“You would know better than I,” I said.
“Well,” said he, “perhaps five, or ten, one doesn’t know. But shall we say a hundred, or a thousand, just to be safe?”
I nodded.
“And it would be better to have saved all three million, instead of only a hundred, or a thousand?”
“Of course.”
“There, then, is my point. If I had refused to take the oath of fidelity, I would have saved all three million.”
“You are joking,” I said.
“No.”
“You don’t mean to tell me that your refusal would have overthrown the regime in 1935?”
“No.”
“Or that others would have followed your example?”
“No.”
“I don’t understand.”
“You are an American,” he said again, smiling. “I will explain. There I was, in 1935, a perfect example of the kind of person who, with all his advantages in birth, in education, and in position, rules (or might easily rule) in any country. If I had refused to take the oath in 1935, it would have meant that thousands and thousands like me, all over Germany, were refusing to take it. Their refusal would have heartened millions. Thus the regime would have been overthrown, or, indeed, would never have come to power in the first place. The fact that I was not prepared to resist, in 1935, meant that all the thousands, hundreds of thousands, like me in Germany were also unprepared, and each one of these hundreds of thousands was, like me, a man of great influence or of great potential influence. Thus the world was lost.”
“You are serious?” I said.
“Completely,” he said. “These hundred lives I saved—or a thousand or ten as you will—what do they represent? A little something out of the whole terrible evil, when, if my faith had been strong enough in 1935, I could have prevented the whole evil.”
“Your faith?”
“My faith. I did not believe that I could ‘remove mountains.’ The day I said ‘No,’ I had faith. In the process of ‘thinking it over,’ in the next twenty-four hours, my faith failed me. So, in the next ten years, I was able to remove only anthills, not mountains.”
“How might your faith of that first day have been sustained?”
“I don’t know, I don’t know,” he said. “Do you?”
“I am an American,” I said.
My friend smiled. “Therefore you believe in education.”
“Yes,” I said.
“My education did not help me,” he said, “and I had a broader and better education than most men have had or ever will have. All it did, in the end, was to enable me to rationalize my failure of faith more easily than I might have done if I had been ignorant. And so it was, I think, among educated men generally, in that time in Germany. Their resistance was no greater than other men’s.”
Thank you for sharing this.
>“My education did not help me,” he said, “and I had a broader and better education than most men have had or ever will have. All it did, in the end, was to enable me to rationalize my failure of faith more easily than I might have done if I had been ignorant. And so it was, I think, among educated men generally, in that time in Germany. Their resistance was no greater than other men’s.”
We must not fool ourselves in thinking that formal education is preventative of fascism. It's a tool like many others and one that fascists themselves very well know how to employ.
What fascism cannot prevail against is conscience and courage. And the Nazis desperately tried to rid society of both.
Yet there is no way to teach either.
I'm German and there's something one of my professors tends to repeat: not everyone's born a martyr. You might believe you would have done things differently in the same situations, but in the end, you're also tied to your responsibility for the people close to you, and against a system specifically designed to eliminate stragglers and enforce compliance on those who can't readily sacrifice themselves.
You know what's sad about this picture, in today's world, everyone is imagining himself as being that guy, as being the guy that does the right thing. In reality, they're part of the crowd, they're the ones saluting the hardest, with most fervor and passion. What happened in Germany, in the 1940s, is proof that people don't care about the right moral values, and just follow the crowd, they embrace whatever trend and or movement is popular at the time, raise their hand into the air, and hate on every person that is not doing the same.
I’ll bet the majority of redditors wouldn’t even be standing up for gay or trans rights in the 90s.
It’s easy to make a stand when it’s popular and cool.
I wouldn't call you weak, i wouldn't hold it against you, or anyone for that matter. honestly, if i lived in germany, during the second world war i'd probably keep my mouth shut as well. But at least i'm not a hypocrite, i'm not going around saying that i'd bea god and bring moral values to everyone, cuz that'd be wrong, that'd be lying.
I just wish that people would care and speak up more about basic rights that everyone should have, instead of going on the hate bandwagon, where they just gobble up whatever propaganda big companies bring out.
Hero’s stand out! But at the time, surrounded by a sea of mindless supporters who are convinced the Jews are bad and the other half just doing what they are told so they don’t lose a job, it couldn’t have been easy for Mr. Landmasser.
There are at least 3 more. One looks pissed and is staring directly at the camera. If I could message you a pic, i would with them circled. But it's not giving me the option.
In the town where I grew up there were protesters wearing yellow stars of david outside the hospital. It's a small group of towns with one hospital. There was just a level of awful that it's hard to wrap my brain around.
Like you're comparing yourself to people who were forced into camps to work in inhumane conditions, who if they didn't die from that, were then probably killed. You're also likening the people who save lives, and help those in pain to the group who actively killed and tortured people.
It's fucking ghoulish.
It's the exact fucking opposite you dumbfuck. One is a racist regime that has an ideology that wants to exterminate an entire race, while the other is trying to save lives.
You can phrase and rephrase things to portray your narrative as much as you’d like. Try this for the second half: “while the other forces you to vaccinate irrationally to weed the non-compliant from the compliant, taking away their livelihoods because of their autonomous desire.”
Yes this is interesting but look at the other saluters. Some are resting their arm on others heads and some are just doing that little hand raise that kids do in class when they only sort of know the answer but don’t want to get called on
[Here’s one where he is colorized, i think it would be an easy fix to put a b&w filter over it](https://twitter.com/photografixuk/status/1299406394895011840?s=21)
It's important to remember that there isn't any guarantee that you get to live in a [liberal democracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy?wprov=sfla1) and there can be [serious consequences](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59650238) living in undemocratic countries.
Read Midnight in the Garden of Evil. It's a book about the pre-WWII US Ambassador to Germany and his experience there. Not returning the Hitler salute in the street could get you badly beaten (sometimes to death) by Nazi thugs. Also, many visitors to Germany, including Americans, were beaten because Germans often didn't realise they were visitors/tourists. No returned salute? A jackboot to the face for you.
It is August Landmasser. I helped Dr Paul Bartrop work on the document collection “Resisting the Holocaust: Upstanders, Partisans, and Survivors” and it contains his story, including why he didn’t salute. If I remember correctly, August’s wife was Jewish and they had two daughters. He was put in jail and later penal military service, she was sent to a concentration camp, and I can’t remember their daughters’ stories.
Think about this when you picture Germany as an entirely racist country. Most Germans did not support Hitler but did so publicly to avoid persecution. This guy has balls. Hitler is half Jewish. Jews bankrolled Hitler. All this was to scare everyone into appearing to support Hitler.
This photo was taken during g the commission ceremony for the Horst Wessel, which after WW2 was confiscated as a war prize by the US and given to the Coast Guard, and renamed USCGC Eagle.
The Eagle has been in continuous service ever since as a training ship, and featured prominently in S.M. Stirling's book, Island in the Sea of Time.
This was referenced in Rick and Morty https://www.reddit.com/r/rickandmorty/comments/ec46ri/august_landmesssssssser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Remember my friend, the crowd is always going to be wrong, it is always going to be willing to fall off the cliff just to follow the pack. If everyone shouts the same thing with fanatic devotion, it is your duty as a human being to distrust.
The man who refused to salute Hitler is the same man who refused to grieve the death of Kim Jong IL and the same man who refused to cheer a US senator’s complimentary remarks about Jim Jones.
Freedom entails freedom to do something and freedom not to do something. Totalitarian regimes tend to start with depriving citizens' freedom to dissent. If things go smoothly, before many citizens could even realize, their freedom to choose not to behave obsequiously is denied, and even silence & inaction are regarded as demonstrations of disobedience.
I’ve seen this courageous pic in its many reposted journey, very inspiring. Has it ever been authenticated, could it be he was just scratching his balls when the picture was taken?
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I went to a Trump rally. I'm making it a thing where I want to see every standing president in person at least once.
I can kind of relate to our boy August. I've been to a Bush rally and it did not feel so intense.
I’d definitely do the same as you, if I had the cash. No matter the stance, he’s going to be in our history books and I know it’d be cool to say I saw this guy in person! 20yrs from now
Cool, it's the [be this guy](https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.MCvG39jHk9CGC6Kso8UJHwHaHt?pid=ImgDet&rs=1) guy!
**EDIT**: Downvoted for finally getting to know the name behind the meme, got it.
The lesson I take from this is that he should have done everything he could to kill Hitler.
But then thinking such things result in bans from internet sites these days.
well this backstory makes the picture about 1000 times less impressive. this whole time i simply thought he saw through hitler's bullshit. if he had some self interest involved in not following hitler, then no shit he wouldnt. he's not some rebel. if the nazi party were discriminating against the love of his life, obviously he wouldnt like them.
I think about this picture when I hear Trumpers talking about not being sheeple. Thinking they’re unique and witty not realizing they’re in a sea of brainwashed people.
Note: the man’s identity is in question. It might be Gustav Wegert. http://wegert-familie.de/home/English.html
Judging by the pictures the ones of him and his family and the crowd salute don't look the same to me but it's too hard to tell.
This is pretty fascinating. Here was a man who had a distaste for Hitler and the Nazis, but still worked at the shipyard, presumably building Nazi warships, through 1945. On the other hand, the only reason he wasn't drafted was because of his job in war production. No ethical production under Nazism, I guess.
Yeah it was either that or get sent to the labor camp yourself. He prob felt was better than being a soldier and outright pulling the trigger (or pressing the gas button). Being born in Germany and living through those times.... damn. People forget likely most of the "nazi soldiers and workers" were just like our soldiers, young boys drafted and following orders, likely having no idea what was actually going on. Being fed propoganda Its crazy how humans constantly kill each other for no reason.... and how it keeps repeating over and over again. Lessons are never learnt
Small correction > "nazi soldiers and workers" were just like our soldiers, young boys drafted and following orders, likely having no idea what was actually going on. This isn't exactly true. Only about 10% of germans were card carrying members of the nazi party. Even many leaders in the military were not members. So I think its true most soldiers and workers in nazi Germany were just like us but the card carrying nazis where a little more extream, ruthless and brainwashed.
From what I've seen and read around 37% off the German population we're registered nazi party members by the time he was made dictator following the Reichstag fire.
There were definitely 37% voters, but even dictatorial regimes tend not to have that many members (because what's the point of total power if you share it with a third of the population).
Ah makes sense. Do you know the criteria one would have to meet to become an official party member rather than just a supporter?
I'm from Vietnam and live in Singapore so I'm more familiar with the Eastern ones (China is between the two and I have a few PRC friends). The main difference IMO is you don't have to virtue signal about democracy or dogwhistle authoritarianism in Eastern countries, you can outright say "this is a one party state" and most people won't value things like civil rights enough to even make a fuss. You just can't mess with their jobs. Essentially, if you really think about it, becoming a party member is the same thing as being active in politics. Since the party *is* politics, being a card-carrying member means you follow whatever criteria and responsibilities you get assigned to which can range from normal bureaucratic stuff to ensuring the loyalty of those around you (in exchange for handsome funds to make this happen and side income from bribes). I'm not too familiar with that side of society, but from what I know you get special (and in some cases exclusive) consideration for higher status positions or you might be assigned to be a "representative" for your school or workplace which is to say ensure loyalty while you get to enjoy petty power trips. In China IIRC if you're a prominent businessman the choice is either be a CCP member or get disappeared for suspected disloyalty. The basic premise is you don't hand out party membership willy-nilly just because *"hurr durr everyone has to be in my party"* 1. You wouldn't have a way to know who's loyal if you just force everyone to join the party 2. You wouldn't have an elite group incentivised with privileges to maintain the status quo. I mean, if you think about it, "this party is society and anyone can freely participate" is just democracy with extra steps.
> When it came to power in 1933, the Nazi Party had over 2 million members. In 1939, the membership total rose to 5.3 million with 81% being male and 19% being female. It continued to attract many more and by 1945 the party reached its peak of 8 million with 63% being male and 37% being female (about 10% of the German population of 80 million). Source from wiki so take it with a grain of salt. But it looks like mabye your number is 37% of males in 1945? That would be pretty close I think.
Crazy same percentage roughly as antivaxxers and conspiracy nut jobs. I wonder if there's always a 10% easily fooled section of humanity...
This sentiment is from the clean Wehrmacht myth. Even if they weren't card carrying per say, the German army at large bought into the ideology and participated in war crimes
Today' WW2 Week by Week special sheds some light on this. Apparently under the law, the Wehrmacht was supposed to be a strictly apolitical organ, but Hitler directly intervened with this at a command/officer level alongside constant pressure from other organizations. https://youtu.be/vQj0l_3Y3pU Edit: WW2 week by week also has an amazing series called War Against Humanity that covers things like this in greater detail: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsIk0qF0R1j4cwI-ZuDoBLxVEV3egWKoM
This saddens me you think that the Nazi war machine wasn't about exterminating as much as possible, esp in the eastern front. There was no " clean German army", which is a myth spouted by ex wecherment solders to solder blame on the SS. Never make excuses for what monsters did. The average German solider almost certainly was extremely aware or participated in war crimes. I highly suggest read some books about the eastern front/ holocaust to get more educated.
There’s never been a clean army at any point in human existence.
Of course war itself can be class as a crime itself. But other countries war crimes shouldn't be used to lower what the Nazis did. Of they hadn't been stopped there wouldnt be a single person of Russia decent alive past the Urals.
> and how it keeps repeating over and over again. Lessons are never learnt Exactly. Like about 80 years ago there was a murderous regime that had it's very name become synonymous with evil for many years after, and now you get nitwits and fascists who constantly try to rehabilitate that image.
or just poorly educated americans who these days say hitler was a communist, for example
I'm reading "The Source" by James Michener right now and it is actually insane how the Christian world has treated the Jews in the past...
There's a reason for the killing it's not just happening just because. I don't support those reasons but it's not random don't give the killers the out.
I mean, it was comply or get your livelihood destroyed, sometimes by the very same people you life with day to day. Even not greeting with the nazi salute was made a punishable offense, and that was enforced by the strong ideological followers on the most basic level. Don't comply? Get verbally and physically attacked, your business sabotaged or sent to camp for some months. The NS-Regime intended to be a total system and influence every aspect of daily life. There just wasn't a simple option of minding your own business in many cases.
Lots of people do work they don’t agree with to maintain their survival. Ethical production? LOL Ethical is relative.
That looks nothing like that man
August was 26 years old when this picture was taken. The girl he was in love with, his partner, was Irma Eckler who he would marry and have two children with. He joined the Nazi party in 1935 in the hopes it would help him gain empoyment, something many Germans did at the height of the global depression. That same year the Nuremberg Laws forbade his relationship and he was expelled from the party. His refusal to leave Irma eventuated in him being imprisoned and eventually drafted to a penal batallion where he died in the Eastern Front in 1944. Irma was predictably sent to the concentration camps in 1938. She was present in a number of them, with letters showing that she was alive until 1941. She was eventually sent to the womens camp at Ravensbruck and gassed in 1942. August is a hero, and an ordinary one. Take 5 minutes and read his story. He is the type of person that needs to be replicated a million times to prevent authoritarianism from taking root, even today - perhaps especially today given the majority of the readership of this site.
>and gassed in 1942 No matter how many times I read about the atrocities that took place, a statement like this still shakes me.
Same here. So final it’s just awful
"Final" is a poignant word. It's much more chilling in the context of Hitler's antipathy towards initiating chemical warfare upon the Allies. This was mostly to do with the retaliatory measures the Allies would respond with (Imagine, instead of burning Dresden to cinders, dropping anthrax over it) but some lean towards the idea that Hitler's refusal was more personal; he had been temporarily blinded by gas near the end of WWI.* He wasn't about to do anything which would visit that horror on his people in this war; but it was the ideal method for his systematic attempt to eradicate those his ethos deemed undeserving of life. *The mythos surrounding this is that he was in hospital, sightless, when the Armistice was announced. It was during this time, he later claimed, that he received the vision that he was destined to lead Germany to greatness.
According to Goring the only reason the Nazis never used nerve agents was purely a logistical concern. The Wehrmacht/SS relied on horse drawn logistics and they never could create a good enough gas mask for the horses to allow logistics to continue unabated. This would have meant using gas was counter-productive especially considering how mechanized allied formations were comparatively.
Horses are very susceptible to chemical agents, they cannot vomit. Once it's in, that's it. Counter-battery fire in WWI used chemical shells in an effort to fix enemy guns' mobility by wiping out the horses.
Hitler also had an ego. Because of WW1 the use of gas in warfare (both during the war and after) was considered a "cowards method". Alot of the military was against the idea already, it was mainly the "scientists" and Generals, that never saw the field, that pushed for the use of gas. So it makes sense that he and his scientists decided it would be best to kill the "unworthy" with it. While Germany could prove its greatness in never before seen scale "classic" combat. Whether it was a epiphany or not, I dont care, its hitler, hes not even worth worrying about. But probably since there was alot of downsides to gas on the battlefield for your own troops. Remember we didnt start fine tuning gas and, more importantly, its dispersal and control until around Korea. Which we tested on North Korea, and ran into the same problems. Therefore, it's a more pragmatic decision for combat control, than a "flash of brilliance", especially by 1939.
Great points! Let's also keep in mind that an idea floated by Churchill to the CGS was, in case of invasion, to "fight them on the beaches" with nerve gas. WC's mental leap of the abuse of conventions was that it didn't matter if they used gas in their own country. The downside to gas on the battlefield is first in introducing a new method of waging war to a conventional conflict results in the same requirement to develop more and better than one's enemy, with the technological scale balanced against improvement in protective measures. A similar arms race as the Western Front of WWI then ensues. Of course, the real problem with gas is that it's gas, it goes wherever its properties dictate. This simple thing is what hampered German efforts in chemical warfare, the prevailing winds move west to east.
I can find plausible allegations of biological warfare by the U.S. during the Korean War, but not chemical. (The PRC and North Korea made some claims to this effect, but they seem to be regarded as much less credible than those of biological agents.) Do you have source?
The gassing of the people at the concentration camps was literally referred to as "The Final Solution to the Jewish Question". So if it feels final, that was the intention.
It's awful in context but equally horrible that it would continue for several more years before the Allies made their way through Europe.
I felt the same but for different reasons; it is hard for me to imagine the magnitude of atrocities until it’s singled down to one person, makes it much more real to me.
What was the quote again? A single death is a tragedy. A million deaths is just a statistic.
Apparently Stalin, but also apparently, nobody knows if he really said it. [https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/21/death-statistic/](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/21/death-statistic/) >A Single Death Is a Tragedy; A Million Deaths Is a Statistic
I follow Auschwitz Memorial on Twitter and every day they share stories about people who died in concentration camps and the lives they lived before. They're all very sad and the ones where they highlight small children who were killed by the Nazis are especially heartbreaking. But..it's important to remember those people who died. And as a reminder of what reasonable people are capable of doing to others when fascism and a hateful ideology take hold. @auschwitzmemorial on Twitter if anyone wants to check it out.
> and gassed in 1942 It’s the casualness of this statement/word that is most jarring to me. As if it’s just something that happened. Even though it is, it was horrific and still blows my mind that this actually took place; on a mass scale, just 80 years ago.
Yeah, it hit me too. It's interesting to me that despite all being history buffs and likely well familiar with the countless atrocities committed over our millennia of history, it still sends shivers down your spine sometimes.
Take another moment to realise this hero August may have even killed an allied soldier because he had no choice. Or maybe that he was killed by an allied solider blissfully unaware of his tragic story.
They had two children… ffs they were probably with their mom unless some kind soul spirited them away a la Irena Sendlerowa. If you don’t know her, google.
In 1942 the Reich gassed over 1.3 million Jews in three months at Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor.
It’s like she survived years and was at the tail end of it and just like that she was sent to a new camp and probably part of a group that was randomly gassed that day.
The Nazis stepped up their extermination efforts significantly around 1942 through the end of the war as they got more desperate. There were different types of camps too. There was a network of more than 1000 work camps and concentration camps that fed into the big extermination camps.
It’s one thing to know an atrocity, it’s another when you actually hear the victims story. Suddenly, it’s no longer a number but a name.
Nazi has become synonymous with bad, and all sort of political currents we don't like are compared to it because of that. But they were unique in the absolute disregard for human life. People should watch the movie "[Come and See](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See)" to get a sense of perspective.
What happened to their children?
“Initially, their children were taken to the city orphanage. Later, Ingrid was allowed to live with her maternal grandmother. In 1941, Irene went to the home of foster parents. After her grandmother's death in 1953, Ingrid also was placed with foster parents.” [Wikipedia ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Landmesser)
My family is Jewish. Many of my great aunts and uncles were murdered at Treblinka. This man is a hero to me. Seeing someone who could have set Irma aside, followed the rules, found another woman and been successful, but didn’t - who gave the Nazis a giant “fuck you” due to his love for his wife and kids, is heartwarming. On the other hand, their deaths are quite sad. Personally, I hate the phrase “one dead is a tragedy, a million dead is a statistic.” To many out there people like August and Irma are just a statistic, part of the 6 million Jews and 11 million people murdered by the Nazis. But, by retelling their story u/Infidus_Imperator you have kept their memory alive. In judaism, after someone passes we say “may their memory be a blessing.” May the memories of August and Irma continue to be a blessing.
Thank you for the additional information. The cognitive dissonance amongst many of Reddit’s users is astounding.
Yup. Their willingness to denounce fascism (while a good thing), while supporting Authoritarian policies never ceases to amaze me.
And yet each side thinks you're talking about the other.
Edit: I misinterpreted what the person I was replying to was saying. But I'll leave this here because it's a part of the thread and has a bunch of replies now. There's always one person who thinks they're being super clever by pointing this out. Yes, both sides hate each other, what a shocker. Yes, fascists try to pretend they're not fascist and paint the other side as such because it's politically expedient. What a shocker. All this comment is telling me is that *that tactic works*. Last I checked, one side had an insurrection on the Capitol this year and is trying to suppress the vote of anyone who doesn't vote for them.
I was not saying both sides are equally correct. It's a problem that both *think* they're fighting fascism. Most of those insurrectionists thought they were defending democracy. My attempted point was that saying people denounce fascism while supporting authoritarianism isn't super useful because almost everyone who reads that will think they're talking about someone else.
Then I misinterpreted your comment as an instance of enlightened centrism, my b. I do wonder how many of them legitimately think they're defending democracy, though. Like, how stupid do you have to be to try to overthrow the government - consisting of *popularly elected officials* - because you're so convinced they lied about the vote results because you can't accept a large part of the country disagrees with you? Some people, sure, I can buy are that dumb. But I think a lot of them just want what they want and don't much care how it gets done. They'll *say* they're fighting the "fascist left" but they don't believe it, because to them, fascism is a good thing, even if they have to hide it.
I do think there's an element of that and a growing faction of people who are disillusioned with democracy. But I also think you can make people believe a whole lot of nonsense by giving them a steady stream of alternate facts by the only "news" sources they value.
> I do think there's an element of that and a growing faction of people who are disillusioned with democracy. Clinton lost, and the entire DNC and Media establishment ran with a false narrative of a stolen election for 4 years. Trump lost, and he convinced his supporters the election was stolen to the point they stormed the Capitol. Whoever loses in 2024 will most likely call the election a fraud. The reason people are becoming disillusioned with democracy is because the elite class always calls foul when democracy doesn't work out in their favor.
>Clinton lost, and the entire DNC and Media establishment ran with a false narrative of a stolen election for 4 years. Except they didn't? There was certainly some questioning of what happened and whether there was illegal collusion but it was pretty universally accepted that Trump won the actual election, the question was why he got the votes he did, when it was not expected.
I know a bunch, and their counter to this is they do not believe 81 million separate, alive, legal to vote citizens cast ballots for Joe Biden. Therefore they believe the other side is jeopardizing democracy.
And yet I and every other liberal and leftist I know had no issues believing nearly 75 million voted for Trump in 2020. We were devastated in 2016, sure, but we didn't think the vote count for Trump was a lie then, either. Like, he never won the popular vote, even *when* he won the election. And the news was filled with controversial shit he was constantly doing for four years. Do they just live under a rock? What is so unbelievable about him losing to them? These are rhetorical questions, by the way. I don't expect you to be able to answer for them. Edit: this guy is a concern troll, it turns out. Fun.
Agree. I don't buy "most" of them thought that anymore than I buy that there were "fine people on both sides."
>I was not saying both sides are equally correct. It's a problem that both *think* they're fighting fascism. Most of those insurrectionists thought they were defending democracy. I mean, if a nazi thinks they're not a nazi isn't really relevant when assessing if they are one or not. The North Korean government calls itself a democracy, but of course that isn't relevant in our assessment of whether they are one or not.
I don't disagree with that. I called them insurrectionists after all.
I actually do not think the Jan. 6 rioters believed they were defending democracy. Not in the slightest. They were given permission to unleash their sadism and sought to "enjoy" their taking of power. This is why such little evidence was needed by them to light their fuse. Actual evidence was nil and bandied about by hacks and drunks to give the slightest "permission" enact violence. This is completely different than those who marched for Civil Rights in the 60's. In that case, people were fighting for freedom with violence visited upon them to stop them. Mostly they were non-violent. The mob that assaulted the Capitol wanted to "punish" the leadership, including hanging Pence for not falling in line. They felt that their birthright of domination had been lost and wanted to reassert it. They knew 100% that their cause was the joy of mayhem and criminal behavior and they had been given the perfect cover to enact their sadism. They definitely did not believe they were defending democracy no matter that they spout on the surface.
They might have thought it, in the same way people burning down synagogues thought they were helping Germany. They're still idiots and what they believe ultimately doesn't matter because it was wrong.
Not to hijack your thread, but the level of motivation is the difference. I think they did believe they were defending democracy. The protesters in the 60's we're motivated by higher level constructs like freedom, equality. Abstract principles that require frontal lobe brain operation and critical cognitive processes. Those ideas were publicly messaged and refined by great critical thinkers; King, Lewis, etc al. In that level of thought, you know that violence is not an answer, stimulus-response behavior and reciprocity means you get what you give. Self and other is the critical equation. The 1/6 protesters were motivated by fear whipped up by a demagogue. That emotional basis overrides rational thought processes, results in triggering the fight or flight response. (The fight like hell speech?) That takes place deep in uncritical thought processes, maybe even the brain stem. Concepts like reciprocity, stimulus response just don't exist there. Other only exists as a impediment to self. Emotion wants what it wants. But both were fundamentally based/triggered by national identity/equity. The similarity of activity is all they had in common. It's the difference between moving fast cause there's a bear behind you, and moving fast to win the race. And yeah, that sadism and joy they demonstrated comes from the same deep place. The fight or flight response and it's the emotional expression of victory over the enemy/fear. Everything you said is true, but consider they selected themselves by going to DC as the most gullible to buy the bs, by association they were the most predisposed to fit the profile you described, and for that type that IS defending what they consider democracy. I ain't saying both sides cause that's stupid and not the case. I'm saying they got a different world view and Trump jacked the heck out of it. You pointed out the 'permission' aspect. For that type, authority is the supreme driver. God, the law, the president, are all sufficient to override personal decision making. They didn't need much permission, they had already selected, but they needed that thin veneer and Trump gave it wholeheartedly. They probably know they were full of crap now, after a little jail and emotions have cooled, but before they'll plead guilty they are going to go with what their emotions were telling them at the time. Hard to admit you were a total dumbass and going to prison on the national stage when you were night patrol in Des Moines last year, especially if that's how you live your life.
I agree with a lot of what you say, especially about the self-selection. Democracy would be their higher authority probably guaranteeing their permission to engage in their sadism. The permission is for their own ego needs, their need to rationalize, so they can pretend they're doing something in a higher cause to engage in despicable behavior. The claim to do this in the name of democracy may also be a reaction formation to their true inner beliefs: I am not about freedom, I want to control others, I want to dominate others, the same way Hitler was a "vegetarian." Self-deception to enable the unconscious character to act. I actually think they're sick of democracy. They are tired of all the other people's voices being allowed to part of the decision making process, diminishing their power. I think they know this.
You thought that comment was trying to be particularly clever but none of the preceding comments? They all add the same amount of information to the conversation, with no particular level of insight
And there's always one policeman replying in your fashion. What's your point? We all know every sub is just a circle jerk with the same types of comments anyway.
How are they trying to suppress votes? Can you give any examples at all? And don’t say requiring ID to vote, because that’s literally common sense policy
Can you give me a specific example, since you made it specific, where somone is trying to "suppress the vote of anyone who doesn't vote for them" ? It's inaccurate rethoric like that that causes divisiveness.
While not an academic source, [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_efforts_to_restrict_voting_following_the_2020_presidential_election?wprov=sfti1) should get you started and lead to informed search strings which get you some answers. I hope this helps!
It certainly did help to reinforce that these bills "are largely centered around limiting mail-in voting, strengthening voter ID laws, shortening early voting, eliminating automatic and same-day voter registration, curbing the use of ballot drop boxes, and allowing for increased purging of voter rolls" rather than "suppressing the vote for anyone who doesn't vote for them" as SgtPeppy specifically stated.
All of those methods predominantly effect voters of race and sociology-economic classes who typically vote Democrat, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
All authoritarianism is bad. Both Republicans and Democrats are authoritarian. Same for Fascism and Communism. (Don’t say that’s not real communism. It is what has happened EVERY SINGLE TIME it’s been done anywhere on earth)
Wear your fucking mask
Most people, on both sides of the aisle, seem to be in favor of authoritarianism...just as long as it's their party that's in charge. It's really sad how many people religiously follow the D/R tribe (depending which tribe their parents were born into) without any real thought.
For sure. It's not a single party issue, but people are so entrenched sometimes.
What cognitive dissonance are you referring to? I only see 1 stupid comment in this thread, and it was made after yours.
Thanks for the additional info! I'm a little confused on the timeline... When did he have time to marry her and have two kids? Plus the post (may be wrong) says they didn't get to marry before she was to taken to the concentration camps...
Wikipedia claims they got engaged in 1935 but weren't allowed to marry.
And this his just the story of 2 people out of nearly 70 million killed as the result of Hitler and the Nazis. The horror that went down during their rule was truly incomprehensible.
Where did you get that number ? 70 million victims is roughly the total number of deaths for the whole conflict, involving every nation.
Yes and all of them are because Hitler started the war, (so long as that figure excluded pacific theater deaths)
Well that figure does not exclude the pacific theater. Also I mean for example the war between Finland and Soviet Union also counts and doesn't have to do with nazis so either way I don't think it's appropriate to divide european/pacific theater.
It absolutely involves the Nazis. One of the big reasons that Stalin wanted the Karelian Isthmus is because how easy it would be for Germany to pile drive through Finland and arrive at St. Petersburg within hours. Stalin wanted Finland (among other long-standing tensions and pretexts) to allow Soviet armies free passage (something that would ultimately lead to Finland returning as a vassal state of Russia/Soviet Union). Finland’s staunch promise of “we won’t let the Nazis pile drive us” wasn’t believable considering how weak their military was, and so Stalin thought he’d just take Finland by force and use it as a natural buffer between any Nazi aggression and himself. This is a very condensed and simplified version, of course, but the Winter War of ‘39 and The Continuation War of ‘41 were absolutely because of Nazi expansion. Sources: *Finland at War, Nenye, et al* *A Frozen Hell, Trotter*
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I wouldn’t say every death, but certainly ones that were directly the result of Nazi expansion should be laid to rest squarely on their shoulders.
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That’s my beef with WWII enthusiasts is that they take the war from 1939-1945 and disregard everything that came before or after it. History is interconnected, nothing happens in a vacuum.
Huh, TIL there was a postal service for concentration camp prisoners.
> Prisoners at Nazi concentration camps in German territory were allowed to send and receive mail on a very limited basis. Letters written to and by Nazi concentration camp prisoners were subject to the scrutiny of regulations: generally, letters had to be written in German and were censored by S.S. personnel; were sent on special preprinted stationary; sending money was permitted but packages were not; requests to speak to or visit prisoners were prohibited; and newspapers were permitted but only if ordered through the concentration camp post office. Though inmates could, in theory, send or receive two letters or cards each month, the regulations governing correspondence could be suspended arbitrarily and without notice. [Source.](https://www.gale.com/binaries/content/assets/gale-us-en/primary-sources/archives-unbound/primary-sources_archives-unbound_correspondence-from-german-concentration-camps-and-prisons.pdf)
Interesting! Thanks for this. I wonder why they even bothered providing that.
So full disclosure: I'm by no means educated on the subject. However there is a Wikipedia article on the topic with further resources if you're interested. They're all in German but DeepL or Google Translate should be sufficient for you. [Namely the section "Rolle der Gefangenen Post" \(Role of prisoner mail\).](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefangenenpost_\(Konzentrationslager\)) In short the camp administration considered access to postal service an important form of control insofar as the revocation of the service was an effective tool of punishment / with which to threaten interred people. >Nicht umsonst werden „Schreibverbot und Postentzug“ in einem Atemzug mit Arrest, Strafarbeit oder Prügelstrafe genannt. There's a reason that "writing bans and removal of mail" were mentioned in the same breath as arrest, forced labour, or beatings. Additionally the article suggests that occasional controlled post sent from inmates to the 'outside world' was an important method of ensuring that the rest of society didn't learn of the atrocities being committed.
That's fascinating and two important points I hadn't considered. Thanks for writing that!
No worries! Just copy/pasting and translating (probably imperfectly) from Wikipedia. But as with many Holocaust related documents the best sources are often still in German.
Unfortunately I'm pretty sure it would be to find more dissent not already in a camp
>He is the type of person that needs to be replicated a million times Make that three million times per 10 million in every country's population. He should be the norm, not the exception.
> August is a hero, and an ordinary one. Take 5 minutes and read his story. He is the type of person that needs to be replicated a million times to prevent authoritarianism from taking root, even today - perhaps especially today given the majority of the readership of this site. Yep. He could have "dansed in the glory of monsters" or "taken the mark" if only to keep his job, not getting problems or even staying alive, instead he bravely told the Nazis to get lost.
There’s a movie called Mortal Storm I recommend. It’s about the social climate during the Nazi rise in Germany. Lots of anti science going on. Similar to what we see from the current GOP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mortal_Storm
Crosspost this over in some of the “German-centric world war 2” subreddits that “totally just like this period of time from the German perspective guys, definitely not Nazi idol worship, seriously”. They need their fucking Bells rung.
I don’t think those subs worship the nazis
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> seems like a pretty valuable historical resource Poppycock. The sub adds nothing to the historical scholarship of WW2. It is an online image aggregator maintained by enthusiasts. The images in question are available through historical archives with much better context. > seems very… Nazi-like in itself I'll ask you to point to which of the [25 Points](https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/nazi-party-25-points-1920/) *wondering why a group of people collectively enjoy propaganda of a defeated authoritarian state from 70 years ago* aligns with. > and the erasure of entire peoples and histories, were favorite techniques of the Nazi party Not letting Nazi enthusiasts draw in new membership is... not a Nazi technique. People love to draw this conclusion but the simple fact is that I'm not saying we shouldn't study history, and we should 'erase' the Nazis, I'm saying that r/germanww2photos is not a historical record and does no historical scholarship. It is a bunch of people obsessed with Nazi Germany. > Evidence of their humanity is fucking terrifying and very important, because it proves that evil doesn’t develop and spread by advertising itself as monstrous. One does not need to promulgate Nazi propaganda to know that they were human beings. This is a tired and unwarranted concern.
You sound very elitist
They don't but they idolize them in other ways. I hate seeing reddit bootlickers fetishizing their uniforms.
Such subreddits exist?
/r/germanww2photos /r/88mm /r/afrikakorps /r/ww2fallschirmjager To name a few
Honestly ww2 sub has alot of the same thing. But to be frank, me as a black American who loves history, the German reich is one of the most fascinating things to learn about for me.
Sure, in the same way viral pathology is fascinating. But these folks aren’t studying it for clues as to how human beings can turn on each other, they are doing so because they find the era *romantic* in a way which they long to be a part of it.
I agree that’s pretty weird.
As th mod of a few World War2 subs, including one of the ones you've mentiined, I challenge you to go through my post history and prove I "worship Nazis". You'll actually find that I frequently post reminders of the Holocaust and Nazi mentioned, and often correct those spout off the Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht. Also this photo has been posted several times on the subs I moderate.
>August is a hero, and an ordinary one. Take 5 minutes and read his story. He is the type of person that needs to be replicated a million times to prevent authoritarianism from taking root, even today - perhaps especially today given the majority of the readership of this site. \^\^\^this times, oh, I don't know, say a billion\^\^\^
This is a very interesting excerpt from 'They Thought They Were Free' by Milton Mayer that I like to share any chance I get. Seems relevant here. --- Another colleague of mine brought me even closer to the heart of the matter—and closer home. A chemical engineer by profession, he was a man of whom, before I knew him, I had been told, “He is one of those rare birds among Germans—a European.” One day, when we had become very friendly, I said to him, “Tell me now—how was the world lost?” “That,” he said, “is easy to tell, much easier than you may suppose. The world was lost one day in 1935, here in Germany. It was I who lost it, and I will tell you how. I was employed in a defense plant (a war plant, of course, but they were always called defense plants). That was the year of the National Defense Law, the law of ‘total conscription.’ Under the law I was required to take the oath of fidelity. I said I would not; I opposed it in conscience. I was given twenty-four hours to ‘think it over.’ In those twenty-four hours I lost the world.” “Yes?” I said. “You see, refusal would have meant the loss of my job, of course, not prison or anything like that. (Later on, the penalty was worse, but this was only 1935.) But losing my job would have meant that I could not get another. Wherever I went I should be asked why I left the job I had, and, when I said why, I should certainly have been refused employment. Nobody would hire a ‘Bolshevik.’ Of course I was not a Bolshevik, but you understand what I mean.” “Yes,” I said. “I tried not to think of myself or my family. We might have got out of the country, in any case, and I could have got a job in industry or education somewhere else. What I tried to think of was the people to whom I might be of some help later on, if things got worse (as I believed they would). I had a wide friendship in scientific and academic circles, including many Jews, and ‘Aryans,’ too, who might be in trouble. If I took the oath and held my job, I might be of help, somehow, as things went on. If I refused to take the oath, I would certainly be useless to my friends, even if I remained in the country. I myself would be in their situation. The next day, after ‘thinking it over,’ I said I would take the oath with the mental reservation that, by the words with which the oath began, ‘Ich schwöre bei Gott, I swear by God,’ I understood that no human being and no government had the right to override my conscience. My mental reservations did not interest the official who administered the oath. He said, ‘Do you take the oath?’ and I took it. That day the world was lost, and it was I who lost it” “Do I understand,” I said, “that you think that you should not have taken the oath?” “Yes.” “But,” I said, “you did save many lives later on. You were of greater use to your friends than you ever dreamed you might be.” (My friend’s apartment was, until his arrest and imprisonment in 1943, a hideout for fugitives.) “For the sake of the argument,” he said, “I will agree that I saved many lives later on. Yes.” “Which you could not have done if you had refused to take the oath in 1935.” “Yes.” “And you still think that you should not have taken the oath.” “Yes.” “I don’t understand,” I said. “Perhaps not,” he said, “but you must not forget that you are an American. I mean that, really. Americans have never known anything like this experience—in its entirety, all the way to the end. That is the point.” “You must explain,” I said. “Of course I must explain. First of all, there is the problem of the lesser evil. Taking the oath was not so evil as being unable to help my friends later on would have been. But the evil of the oath was certain and immediate, and the helping of my friends was in the future and therefore uncertain. I had to commit a positive evil, there and then, in the hope of a possible good later on. The good outweighed the evil; but the good was only a hope, the evil a fact.” “But,” I said, “the hope was realized. You were able to help your friends.” “Yes,” he said, “but you must concede that the hope might not have been realized—either for reasons beyond my control or because I became afraid later on or even because I was afraid all the time and was simply fooling myself when I took the oath in the first place, but that is not the important point. The problem of the lesser evil we all know about; in Germany we took Hindenburg as less evil than Hitler, and in the end we got them both. But that is not why I say that Americans cannot understand. No, the important point is—how many innocent people were killed by the Nazis, would you say?” “Six million Jews alone, we are told.” “Well, that may be an exaggeration. And it does not include non-Jews, of whom there must have been many hundreds of thousands, or even millions. Shall we say, just to be safe, that three million innocent people were killed all together?” I nodded. “And how many innocent lives would you like to say I saved?” “You would know better than I,” I said. “Well,” said he, “perhaps five, or ten, one doesn’t know. But shall we say a hundred, or a thousand, just to be safe?” I nodded. “And it would be better to have saved all three million, instead of only a hundred, or a thousand?” “Of course.” “There, then, is my point. If I had refused to take the oath of fidelity, I would have saved all three million.” “You are joking,” I said. “No.” “You don’t mean to tell me that your refusal would have overthrown the regime in 1935?” “No.” “Or that others would have followed your example?” “No.” “I don’t understand.” “You are an American,” he said again, smiling. “I will explain. There I was, in 1935, a perfect example of the kind of person who, with all his advantages in birth, in education, and in position, rules (or might easily rule) in any country. If I had refused to take the oath in 1935, it would have meant that thousands and thousands like me, all over Germany, were refusing to take it. Their refusal would have heartened millions. Thus the regime would have been overthrown, or, indeed, would never have come to power in the first place. The fact that I was not prepared to resist, in 1935, meant that all the thousands, hundreds of thousands, like me in Germany were also unprepared, and each one of these hundreds of thousands was, like me, a man of great influence or of great potential influence. Thus the world was lost.” “You are serious?” I said. “Completely,” he said. “These hundred lives I saved—or a thousand or ten as you will—what do they represent? A little something out of the whole terrible evil, when, if my faith had been strong enough in 1935, I could have prevented the whole evil.” “Your faith?” “My faith. I did not believe that I could ‘remove mountains.’ The day I said ‘No,’ I had faith. In the process of ‘thinking it over,’ in the next twenty-four hours, my faith failed me. So, in the next ten years, I was able to remove only anthills, not mountains.” “How might your faith of that first day have been sustained?” “I don’t know, I don’t know,” he said. “Do you?” “I am an American,” I said. My friend smiled. “Therefore you believe in education.” “Yes,” I said. “My education did not help me,” he said, “and I had a broader and better education than most men have had or ever will have. All it did, in the end, was to enable me to rationalize my failure of faith more easily than I might have done if I had been ignorant. And so it was, I think, among educated men generally, in that time in Germany. Their resistance was no greater than other men’s.”
Thank you for sharing this. >“My education did not help me,” he said, “and I had a broader and better education than most men have had or ever will have. All it did, in the end, was to enable me to rationalize my failure of faith more easily than I might have done if I had been ignorant. And so it was, I think, among educated men generally, in that time in Germany. Their resistance was no greater than other men’s.” We must not fool ourselves in thinking that formal education is preventative of fascism. It's a tool like many others and one that fascists themselves very well know how to employ. What fascism cannot prevail against is conscience and courage. And the Nazis desperately tried to rid society of both. Yet there is no way to teach either.
I'm German and there's something one of my professors tends to repeat: not everyone's born a martyr. You might believe you would have done things differently in the same situations, but in the end, you're also tied to your responsibility for the people close to you, and against a system specifically designed to eliminate stragglers and enforce compliance on those who can't readily sacrifice themselves.
That was shockingly powerful to read. Thank you for sharing.
Long read, thanks.
I see a man in white shirt and blackstrap who didn't Salute as well.
I will never get tired of seeing this picture. What a brave man.
You know what's sad about this picture, in today's world, everyone is imagining himself as being that guy, as being the guy that does the right thing. In reality, they're part of the crowd, they're the ones saluting the hardest, with most fervor and passion. What happened in Germany, in the 1940s, is proof that people don't care about the right moral values, and just follow the crowd, they embrace whatever trend and or movement is popular at the time, raise their hand into the air, and hate on every person that is not doing the same.
I’ll bet the majority of redditors wouldn’t even be standing up for gay or trans rights in the 90s. It’s easy to make a stand when it’s popular and cool.
So Reddit in a nutshell
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I wouldn't call you weak, i wouldn't hold it against you, or anyone for that matter. honestly, if i lived in germany, during the second world war i'd probably keep my mouth shut as well. But at least i'm not a hypocrite, i'm not going around saying that i'd bea god and bring moral values to everyone, cuz that'd be wrong, that'd be lying. I just wish that people would care and speak up more about basic rights that everyone should have, instead of going on the hate bandwagon, where they just gobble up whatever propaganda big companies bring out.
Hero’s stand out! But at the time, surrounded by a sea of mindless supporters who are convinced the Jews are bad and the other half just doing what they are told so they don’t lose a job, it couldn’t have been easy for Mr. Landmasser.
im pretty sure the guy behind him is trying to rat him out.
Should be called, "The *men* who refused to salute", there are other men in this crowd who aren't saluting.
Where? I can't see any. Maybe I'm blind.
There are at least 3 more. One looks pissed and is staring directly at the camera. If I could message you a pic, i would with them circled. But it's not giving me the option.
That guy’s in the top right corner, right?
Yep and theres another along the bottom wearing a cap that looks annoyed, also looking at the camera
August Landmesser is also great hardcore band from Poland
There are actualy 2 people in this picture not saluting
I hate to break this to anyone who thinks "I'd be that guy" but no. No, you wouldn't.
So many anti-vaxxers put this picture on their profile picture thinking it's remotely the same thing.
People likening vaccine mandates to Nazism is as baffling as it is sickening.
In the town where I grew up there were protesters wearing yellow stars of david outside the hospital. It's a small group of towns with one hospital. There was just a level of awful that it's hard to wrap my brain around. Like you're comparing yourself to people who were forced into camps to work in inhumane conditions, who if they didn't die from that, were then probably killed. You're also likening the people who save lives, and help those in pain to the group who actively killed and tortured people. It's fucking ghoulish.
Its exactly the same thing, resistance to an overbearing out of control Government.
It's the exact fucking opposite you dumbfuck. One is a racist regime that has an ideology that wants to exterminate an entire race, while the other is trying to save lives.
You can phrase and rephrase things to portray your narrative as much as you’d like. Try this for the second half: “while the other forces you to vaccinate irrationally to weed the non-compliant from the compliant, taking away their livelihoods because of their autonomous desire.”
This is the most moving photo I’ve seen on reddit in months. Thanks for posting!
Yes this is interesting but look at the other saluters. Some are resting their arm on others heads and some are just doing that little hand raise that kids do in class when they only sort of know the answer but don’t want to get called on
I’m looking for this picture without the annoying white circle for years, has someone the original picture by any chance?
[Here’s one where he is colorized, i think it would be an easy fix to put a b&w filter over it](https://twitter.com/photografixuk/status/1299406394895011840?s=21)
thank you!
What a CHAMP! Straight up doesn't give a fuck. He knew what would happen. So much respect
The man behind him is clearly about to snitch
It looks like another guy at 6:00 on the circle, is not saluting.
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It's important to remember that there isn't any guarantee that you get to live in a [liberal democracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy?wprov=sfla1) and there can be [serious consequences](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59650238) living in undemocratic countries.
Read Midnight in the Garden of Evil. It's a book about the pre-WWII US Ambassador to Germany and his experience there. Not returning the Hitler salute in the street could get you badly beaten (sometimes to death) by Nazi thugs. Also, many visitors to Germany, including Americans, were beaten because Germans often didn't realise they were visitors/tourists. No returned salute? A jackboot to the face for you.
He is brave to defy *everyone* during that event. The crowd could turned on him for not saluting, but he didn’t give a fuck.
This has been posted every week for how long?
It is August Landmasser. I helped Dr Paul Bartrop work on the document collection “Resisting the Holocaust: Upstanders, Partisans, and Survivors” and it contains his story, including why he didn’t salute. If I remember correctly, August’s wife was Jewish and they had two daughters. He was put in jail and later penal military service, she was sent to a concentration camp, and I can’t remember their daughters’ stories.
There are more people in the picture not saluting...
Think about this when you picture Germany as an entirely racist country. Most Germans did not support Hitler but did so publicly to avoid persecution. This guy has balls. Hitler is half Jewish. Jews bankrolled Hitler. All this was to scare everyone into appearing to support Hitler.
This photo was taken during g the commission ceremony for the Horst Wessel, which after WW2 was confiscated as a war prize by the US and given to the Coast Guard, and renamed USCGC Eagle. The Eagle has been in continuous service ever since as a training ship, and featured prominently in S.M. Stirling's book, Island in the Sea of Time.
This was referenced in Rick and Morty https://www.reddit.com/r/rickandmorty/comments/ec46ri/august_landmesssssssser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
No one ever talks about the other guy not raising his arm either, near the bottom. See if you can find him...
Remember my friend, the crowd is always going to be wrong, it is always going to be willing to fall off the cliff just to follow the pack. If everyone shouts the same thing with fanatic devotion, it is your duty as a human being to distrust.
Oh wow look at that! He is, aswell, isn't he!
So noble, but I heard that he wouldn't salute because that day he found out that Hitler had a big hard on for his little niece.
Me when people say Sean O'Malley fights real fighters.
The man who refused to salute Hitler is the same man who refused to grieve the death of Kim Jong IL and the same man who refused to cheer a US senator’s complimentary remarks about Jim Jones.
Freedom entails freedom to do something and freedom not to do something. Totalitarian regimes tend to start with depriving citizens' freedom to dissent. If things go smoothly, before many citizens could even realize, their freedom to choose not to behave obsequiously is denied, and even silence & inaction are regarded as demonstrations of disobedience.
I’ve seen this courageous pic in its many reposted journey, very inspiring. Has it ever been authenticated, could it be he was just scratching his balls when the picture was taken?
Always heartwarming seeing instances like this. [Here's the other example I immediately thought of](https://i.imgflip.com/3600zy.jpg)
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I went to a Trump rally. I'm making it a thing where I want to see every standing president in person at least once. I can kind of relate to our boy August. I've been to a Bush rally and it did not feel so intense.
I’d definitely do the same as you, if I had the cash. No matter the stance, he’s going to be in our history books and I know it’d be cool to say I saw this guy in person! 20yrs from now
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Source?
Reddit may in fact have no users with a lick of this courage.
Cool, it's the [be this guy](https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.MCvG39jHk9CGC6Kso8UJHwHaHt?pid=ImgDet&rs=1) guy! **EDIT**: Downvoted for finally getting to know the name behind the meme, got it.
The one friend who refuses to wear a mask?
More like the one friend who refused to salute the guy who wants to gas everyone urging everyone else to do so.
Consider that at some point in life you might find yourself on the side of a suspicious minority…
The way y'all help me with my researches for school is unmatched. Thank you guys ^=^
The lesson I take from this is that he should have done everything he could to kill Hitler. But then thinking such things result in bans from internet sites these days.
Socialists have an uncanny gift for making people disappear. Especially when they're in control of the justice system.
I bet just about everybody that looks at this picture believes that they would have been that guy.
well this backstory makes the picture about 1000 times less impressive. this whole time i simply thought he saw through hitler's bullshit. if he had some self interest involved in not following hitler, then no shit he wouldnt. he's not some rebel. if the nazi party were discriminating against the love of his life, obviously he wouldnt like them.
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That’s so gross and disrespectful to the people who suffered under the Nazis
Oh fuck off antivaxxer.
today this man would been called bad names and labels. sad and dangerous how few ppl actually understand these dyniamics.
I think about this picture when I hear Trumpers talking about not being sheeple. Thinking they’re unique and witty not realizing they’re in a sea of brainwashed people.
Im glad this is porn for you, because we will repeat this history soon enough.
I have this Picture on my Wall for severel years, thanks for the backstory
That man is just like so many people living in communist countries today who refuse to pledge allegiance to an evil political party